Microsoft's not decertifying NT4 MCSEs

I was angry when Microsoft announced the decertification strategy. I decided to call the Microsoft bluff and started working towards other certifications.

Well time to join the happy family again.

i.ukwuoma@sympatico.ca

OK buddy, how would you like to finish about 8 mos of classes(we had a class of 23 people and it ran over due to lots of question, answer and hands on time!) and spend $7000.00 plus exams only to hear that less than a year later, your certificationis going to expire? I still owe about 4 grand and refuse to pay for schooling until that is paid off. Let's be real...not every company pays for upgraded training when they don't plan on upgrading to a new O/S. I am a Jr. Admin and learn every day. Taking a course like MCSE with no or very little networking experience is and was a real challenge. My Enterprise test was a full 55 questions...not the 35 question adaptive test as Msoft decided to change things midstream and make the certification harder.
I think as a fellow I T pro, you should respect all people with the MCSE certification. As in evry other thing in life, some people excel in certain areas and others are just ok. Your disrespect is amazing.

Microsoft's recent decision even surprised me. I had concluded that Microsoft would offer an alternative certification track due to my belief that most current MCSEs were reluctant to "upgrade" their certifications due to two reasons: First, theirorganizations had no plans to implement Windows 2000 and Active Directory, and Second, recertification was extremely demanding. As the case with most current MCSEs, I failed the accelerated exam and now must complete the full certification program. I really did not see most of them making the effort to recertify. I believe that Microsoft realized that it was successfull beyond its own expectations when it "raised the bar" on certifications. I believe that their efforts resulted in fewer people recertifying than they had hoped. I intend to complete the Windows 2000 MCSE program by the end of this year; however, I am pleased that I will remain certified if I don't.

You are on the right track. This announcement just goes to show that Microsoft cannot be trusted. Who knows what they will do next. Maybe they will decertify us next year! Maybe they wont. There is no consistency to their certification plans.
What they should do is implement a policy and stick to it. (like Novell)

One of the labs I supported decided that they were going to upgrade every machine to W2k from NT4 or Win/98. However, the HCL for W2K is awful short, and it turned out every machine needed more RAM at least and in some cases new video card or SCSI controller. We finally decided that while new machines would get W2K, but existing machines would soldier on with whatever they have. Which means that whoever is going to admin them has be certified in those "obsolete" OSs.
Except that I'm not certified in those OSs, either. The certification doesn't cover two things I have to know: interoperability with UNIX and security.

So I guess the bottom line was that 1) we didn't care about certification, and 2) if we did care, having those obsolete certifications was actually valuable.

Ya know what really ticks me off, all you people ever seem to do is moan DESPITE the fact that just about every one of us makes a damn good living out of Microsoft and their products (Well maybe you don't, that would be understandable). Ever heardthe saying about biting the hand that feeds you ????

now that they have extended the cert on 4.0, I wonder if I can finish getting it. I have the NT 4.0 core exams and would like to take 2 electives applicable to both 4.0 and 2k. Is it possible to still acquire the 4.0 cert?

All that bashing on study habits and beating of the chest about your educational accomplishments and you never learned to spell correctly. ;)

(Sorry I couldn't resist)....lol.

I was so totally disgusted with MS's original decision that I was looking around for a class action suit I could join and I was starting a boycott of all MS products. I started talking up Linux as much as possible.

What can you expect from an organization where a federal judge calls most of their top executives nothing more than common criminals.

Methinks this may be too little too late.

The four (two are instructors) individuals who obtained their MCSEs ahead of me at MCed did not qualify for the Early Achiever card; they each passed the NT versions of Proxy & Exchange. One of them, the head instructor of the school, investigated further & believes the reason is that you must take straight W2K courses for this minor honor.

Fresno Joe

Hasn't anyone wondered why certification is necessary for EVERY new OS. Do lawyers and accountants have to be recertified when new laws are pasted? No they continue their education as every one else must. Here's a new formula for you OS = $. Themore you release, the more profits are generated.

I'm sure everyone is impressed with your intelligence here but I'm not certain how your post has any relevance to the subject at hand. The discussion, I thought, was in regards to MS decision to accept the NT 4.0 MCSE beyond the date of 12/31/2001. Good for them, it was silly to discontinue the certification in the first place as it remains their most popular NOS.

I guess it was nice you could drop by to tell everyone how smart you are in such a condescending tone. Why belittle people? Just because things might come easier to you than most? Why don't you try using your talents to help others instead of using them as a brick wall.

I couldn't agree more with you though, on how much harder it was to obtain a bachelor's degree than a MCSE, that's a fact. When I was done, I chose to help others work on their MCSE's.

I am quite happy, as many of you are, to learn that the MCSE 4.0 will not expire. I was quite worried about this decertification because it was a validating point in my job and I don't really have the money to upgrade to MCSE 2000 just yet. Also, for foreign visa purposes, a trade certification is definitely necessary. All in all, I'm very happy.

I am a MCDBA(SQL7.0) in NT. What is happening with my cert? I called Microsoft to ask them just that and got two different answers from 2 different people. The first person said I would loose the cert, the second said I would keep it. If Microsoft's own staff don't know how these certification changes will affect currently certified professionals, what hope do the rest of us have?

If you look at the bottom of http://www.microsoft.com/trainingandservices/default.asp?PageID=mcp&PageCall=requirements&SubSite=cert/mcse&AnnMenu=mcse they are now counting some retired exams toward the 2000 MCSE as well, including TCP/IP and IIS 4.0. This means a 2 test upgrade if you pass the 240 exam...it also means a lot of people took more tests than they had to.

I have completed my MCSE on nt4 and am currently upgrading to Win2k. I believe it is their best OS to date. I am like you, I try to stay current as possible, which is tough. Like it or not this industry changes on a daily basis. If you dont know that by now, maybe you should rethink your career choice. Other companies (ie Novell) retire their certifications and require that they upgrade their skills, why is it so shocking that Microsoft does the same thing? Now with this latest news, we can hold two distinct MCSE's. I think its a plus. I think most of us would have kept the old certificates and used them anyway, so now we are getting Microsofts "blessing". That being said, I believe they could have announced this sooner and eased the pressure of their MCSE's, in thinking that they would lose their certifications at the end of the year.

You're saying something that I think too. After working on or with computers since 1986, I decided to get A+ Certified a few months ago. Not that I really needed it, but I got it really more out of self-defense. I get soooo tired of going to talkto "IT professionals" who have no clue. They might have a certificate though. They even might have diplomas. But they know nothing! And since I wasn't "certified" in anything, obviously, *I* was the one who was mistaken!

The bottom line of course is that to claim to be "certified" in anything, you have to know how to really do what you are claiming you can do. I took an A+ "Prep Course" just to make sure I understood what I was getting into. In the class were 5 students who had taken extensive hardware and software courses (MS and Cisco). One of them was an active network administrator. Of the students who were "qualified" academically to take the A+ exam, I was shocked to find out that they had never taken a motherboard out of a machine, or even replaced a card! (This actually irritated me on principle, because they had just spent money on two courses which were supposed to teach them how to do that.) Operating Systems were the same way. Few had ever performed the hands-on task of a clean install of any operating system. While a few could talk a good talk about RAID-5, and how it worked, etc, no one had actually ever used it.

Certifications are good if kept in perspective. Unfortunately, certifications have become a "check the block" item for resumes, instead of verification of what you actually know. *ALL* IT certifications are worthless in the long run if you cannot do what it says you can do.

My first impression of your response was that you were kind of having fun, trying to stir the pot for a good laugh. But you know what? It doesn't matter. You comments, regardless of the reason, give everyone associated w/the IT field a bad name.And sense of humor or not, you'd be in a better arena if you joined forces w/Jerry Falwell; at least that way you can pass all the moral judgement on others that you heart desires while being able to blame your ignorance on the verbial religious cloak.

Typical of Microsoft, I took the NT4 administrators and core technologies courses a week before they retired the exams, but didn't take them as Microsoft was going to decertify them after I had taken them!!

From:Donatus Ugwudiobi[takabis@netzero.net] After reading the letter from TechRepublic about the change of mind of Microsoft in reversing the MCSE certificate I feel that I now belong to the IT-World.Before, I was among those who have concluded thatI'm not going to upgrade anything because those who have Bachelors Degree never upgrade theirs and they are not smarter than those with certifications.Now let's show the World that IT-industry is Microsoft and Microsoft is IT-industry!GO MICROSOFT AND BRAVO!!

I have to admit I was a little put off by the (now rescinded) 'retirement' of the MCSE NT 4.0 Cert in December. I worked very hard for that Cert (MCSE=I) and it was a little degrading to have it become extinct.
I am going to continue to pursue Win2K MCSE largely for the same reason I got the NT 4.0 one, I still believe that it's important enough to have. When I started the MCSE track I was completely a newbie to computers (I was working full time as an optician!), I got my A+ Cert first bynecessity so I had SOME idea what was going on. I learned an incredible amount gaining the MCSE Cert but the real training started when I got my first job in IT.
The MCSE Cert helped get me started in this business and I've never regretted the timeor money I spent to get it. The Win2K MCSE is a challenge, and I need that to progress. The bottom line is I never want to stop learning and Certification is one of the best ways to do that.

I'm right there with you on the same path. (Only I'm not a single mother.) There is a lot to be said for people that can hold down a 60+ hour a week job (pretty standard for this industry), study and increase their level of expertise, and still raise a family.

As for MicroSoft's latest twist in their neverending story. I applaud their decision. With two sets of MCSE certs we're going to be worth way more. (Cha-Ching!!)

This whole Paper-MCSE thing really kills me. The only difference between a "Paper-MCSE" & a "Real-MCSE" is the level of experience a person acquires. Most, if not all, of us have started out as a "Paper-MCSE". There really isn't a devaluation tothe certifications due to a flooding of beginner MCSEs. The people with experience have and will always be worth more than the people just starting out. Contrary to popular belief...most employers are not brainless and know this to be true. Granted, beginners aren't worth much. But as they come up to the skill level required by the IT industry to be considered competent, their value increases also. So please... stow the ridiculous notion that too many unskilled holders of the prized MS MCSE certs will devalue said certs.

I do not understand why you would want to terminate certification on a product that is still widely used. It seems to me, to gain confidence with the general public you would want to keep certification for a while after its initial introduction. Decertification after 24 months promotes anxiety.

It used to be good but due to the 5 day boot camps to get it, I've seen guys with MCSE that have very good memories but no IT knowledge at all and are useless. Its just MS making a buck. Think about how much you've learnt on an MCSE course and how much you use in your job. Its not much.

Instead of "Early achiever" my gold plated card should read "Stupid achiever - victim nr #### of another Microsoft scam". After all the effort I put in obtaining my MCSE2000 I just see my investment so devalued that is now useless. I and many otherswere no more than victims of a scam.

I think it's great news, I worked hard to get my MCP in NT4 and I think it should retire just because of a new Operating system. Thanks MS

Now Microsoft needs to bring back the exams for the NT 4.0 cert. for those of us that are still working with NT and weren't able to get our testing done in time.

I am happy for you people that had invested in NT4 Cert and thought you were going to lose it. I had finished NT4 core and when I heard that it was going to be de-certified I was furious, but I invested 7K went to a boot camp and got certified in 2000. Now they change their minds. Lets face it the real reason for the switch is that enough MCSE's had let them know where to file the 2000 exam, and 1/1 there were going to be a lot of Microsoft Certified Solution Provider Companies without the MCSE's to keep their company certification.

Whether or not Microsoft decertifies any of their certifications shouldn't matter; as long as a company is using a particular OS they will still look for someone with MCP or MCSE. Just because a certification is retired means you lose the knowledge?I think not!

And proud of it!. Those are the exact words I said to my boss when he interviewed me for a position as a PC/Network Tech. I did not get my MCSE thinking of the big $$. I did it because I enjoy learning and love NT 4.0 (believe it or not). I paid formy exams my books, etc. Now 3 months later I am the I.S guy at this company and support 40+ users all by myself in a mixed environment of NT 4.0,2000, and 98 (Did I mention 3 NT servers?). And because I learned that in this industry if you do not have answers you better know where to get them, I am not calling my boss 15 times a day as he expected me to, and even though he does not say much about it, I know I am making his life easier. I know that there are paper MCSEs that give Experienced hardcore MCSEs a bad name, but there are also others like me who enjoy learning and supporting OSes. Give paper MCSEs a chance. God Bless America.

Hello folks! Are you aware that to take an NT 4.0 exam cost $100.00, whereas a W2k exam costs $60.00, Hummmm......MS works its mysterious ways.

The industry owes a great debt to Microsoft. It was chaos before MS brought order. I think the MCSE(NT) crisis and the recent MS software licensing crisis were both fallout from eight years under the Clinton crowd. Sh*** runs down hill. Someone had to pay for the lawyers. Now that the government is no longer dominated by lawyers, we will all can just do our jobs.

I mulledgetting the NT4 cert until microsoft convinced me the cert was retiring. I have a full set of NT4 texts from learnkey and exam cram,and was set to persue NT4. But I, as others, surmised that the prudent path was W2K. I am now MCSE W2K. My colleagues Have NT4 cert AND W2K cert. Whoopie. I can Never be NT4 certified because Microsoft retired the exams. There is no way I can be competitive,and now my job search activites are restricted for not being NT4 certified.
So much for trusting Microsoft's integrity. I spoke to A representitive in the Training section of Microsoft,and all I dertected was an araragant stance that they did what market demanded and mulled over the desicion a long time. Well, you sure screwed me and plenty more like me who had the chance and opurtunity to be NT4 cerified, but our trust has been betryed. Thelest they can do is allow 70-222 and 70-244 lead to a NT4 cert. That is the closest path I can see. I articulated that to this Msoft rep at Comdex. It did not resinate. Anyone else have an idea on this?

Great that Microsoft is finally getting real about these certifications. Businesses are getting tired of having to upgrade their software every two years and are about to really revolt by going to an open source OS like Linux. I know of two different companies that are looking to go that way and i don't blame them. Why pay $10K to $20K for a product that will only last 2 years,

I agree that it's good news for those of us that put in the time and expense to get our respective MCSE in NT 4. I know I did not want to see mine go out the window at the end of this year and I'm glad it won't now. BUT: I have to agree with one individual I read who replied when the anouncement of this reversal of our de-cert on NT. Simply this - Microsoft likes to be able to tell the world that it has the highest percentage of certified professionals on it's products. The problem they faced is that not nearly enough of the NT certified went ahead and "upgraded" to their 2000 platform. They would have lossed the number - I believe it went from somewhere in the 400,000 mark down to 40,000 or somewhere close to that. Heaven forbid!! Now, I do plan on going ahead with my cert's in Windoows products - 2000/XP/.NET whatever but will be doing it at my own pace. No test 240 for me thanks. I'll go over each test subject individually - that's how I prefer to do it anyway. However,I'm also interested in other product certs as well. A couple of Cisco would be nice and maybe a Linux???

Crappy one shot exam, should be abolished. What's the point of taking six exams to pass MCSE, to find out you have to start all over again if you fail the one shot upgrade exam.
This has completely turned me away from MS Certification, and I am now only going to concentrate on Novell and Unix in future. I didnt used to hate MS, but I do now.

Perspective sure can change over time. I still agree with my original post that an IT pro not upgrading skills is worthless to his company...HOWEVER....when getting the swamp drained of alligators becomes the secondary objective to cleaning the water it seems it would tend to come up from behind and bite you on the Administrator's account.

I've been working with computers long before microsoft ever offered it's first op-sys the
unofficial cp/m clone DOS 1.0. No, I'm not certified yet been too busy digging certified profs out of holes! Seems after all this time microsoft still doesn't get it! An Op-system is supposed to operate if it is broken right out of the container no amount of certification will do.

Just Look at their installation process and you can see why. When you install win2k or winXp the
very first thing it does is try and dial out to the net for fixes in a totally unprotected manor. So if you have anti-virus and firewall and virus alert patches that must be installed before net activity your already toast!

They say this is because if they didn't do this people would forget to register (so microsoft can record their configuration) and people wouldn't be intised to upgrade to their newest offerings patches etc.