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M.S. not intrested in support.

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by kevg

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I recently had reason to phone Microsoft for support. Turned out that they are not intested in support. (SUPRISED? I THINK NOT!!!!)
I'm running XP PRO.
Conversation went something like this.

MS: Can I have the CD KEY please.
KG: ABCDE-12345....
MS: That CD KEY is for an OEM Product, Microsft does not support OEM products. You must contact the vendor that sold you the computer for support.
KG: But I built the computer myself from 2nd hand and new parts and bought the CD from a shop that gone out of business. How can I go back to them?
MS: Goodby

KG: You are the weekest link, Goodby...

It seems that they want me to go back to myself for support.
I solved the problem myself. Took a little while, but didn't need Micosoft in the end.

281 replies

by jardinier

My first Win 95 computer was a Compaq Presario which of course -- like all brand-name computers --- came with an OEM Recovery Disc.

Before I learnt of the importance of using anti-virus software (this was some 7 years ago) I sat and watched while a well known virus (CH2 I believe) dissolved all my software.

So I ran the recovery disc, and found that I could not install additional fonts. So I rang Microsoft and was advised that I would have to pay to have my question answered ($AU 36 at the time), but that I would not have to ever pay again for further problems with this particular item.

Subsequently I had another problem, which the Microsoft operator could not resolve, but I was charged nevertheless, as they had my credit card details. So you pay for the support, whether or not your problem is resolved. Recently, when I rang Microsoft to get a key code for a copy of Windows 95 which I had just acquired for $4, I was given the option of listening to the terms and conditions relating to support. And sure enough there it was -- you pay whether or not the operator can resolve your problem.

Well I have changed my credit card since then, and you can be assured that they won't rip ME off again.

by thechas

Julian,

Good luck with your quest for a product code.

First, Microsoft has stopped ALL support for W95.

Second, they do NOT consider the CD the product. They consider the software license the product.

Further, unless the CD is from a retail distribution, Microsoft considers that the entire system is part and parcel to the license.
There is some confusion as to whether or not you are allowed to sell a system intact and transfer the OEM license.
The wording of the EULA can be interpreted such that the license to use the software is limited to the original purchaser.

Chas

by hal 9000

The MS team seem to push the idea that the system is the "Product" and is transferable between owners but of course like everything MS things are very limited.

A few months ago I had to ring them for a product key for Win 98 to load from Floppies as these where available upon payment from MS after you bought a copy of 98 {the original one} and I had a Notebook without a CD ROM.

MS's answer was to offer me a CD which was of no use to me at all but I ended up loading DOS and then installing an external CD ROM and then loading 98 from a CD that I had here {I know totally Illegal but it worked.}

At a MS Partners meeting last year the Marketing Manager said that they where selling about 50 copies of DOS per month and he couldn't understand why the people just didn't copy the OS from existing floppies but as always MS seem only too willing to sell unsupported product as it makes better profits for them.

I've personally bought copies of DOS from MS for boxes that control industrial equipment who's only programs run on the DOS platform things like computer controlled lathes and milling machines. Then there is a program that is horrendously expensive and only has limited applications in the earth moving business that only works on the NT platform which is easy as all I do is supply an OEM copy of XP Pro and install NT4 which is no longer available from MS.

But a while ago MS put out a notice to all its partners effectively saying any repairs that involved changing parts could be read as requiring new software so if you needed to replace a IDE lead you where supposed to sell all new MS software which would have worked out as very expensive but they latter relented and claimed that it was never their intention to do this. They where only trying to get away from upgrades where there was a substantial increase in performance leaving the old OS & Software on the system so the current ruling is that provided that you do not change the M'Board and make a substantial increase in performance you can use the old software but if you do an upgrade from a P11 to a P4 then all new software is required.

Incidental MS wording in that letter read something this "The Software is licensed to "ORIGINAL HARDWARE ONLY" and their staff could not explain exactly what they meant by "Original Hardware!"

Col

by tomkat

there is a program, I'm not sure if it will work on an uninstalled version. It is called magic jellybean keyfinder. You might try it to see if it will work.

by thechas

Sorry, what you ran into is one of the risks associated with using OEM version software.

Part of the reduced cost of the OEM version is that the software manufacture does NOT provide support for the software.

Technically, yes, you are to provide your own support since you built the system.

On the subject, the last time I used Microsoft support, I KNEW that I knew more than the support person helping me. They had the advantage of a step by step script for the problem.

There are numerous web sites with some very detailed Windows support information.
You might start by searching the Knowledge Base at www.microsoft.com

Since you are a member here at Tech Republic, you might want to post your problem as a question in the Technical Q&A section.
Provide as much detail as possible, including your hardware configuration.
Between the group of peers here, there is very little that we have not come across.

Chas

by tommerritt

As a side note, your first job when calling Tech Support for ANY company is to get by that guy who answers the phone. The Level 1 guy knows nothing, and is there to shield the higher paid Level 2 guy from dumb questions. Your best strategy is to immediately hit him with a tough question (I use "How do you get into your program"?) - and when he can't answer, demand to be passed to Level 2. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it's worth it. Attempting to have a conversation with a Level 1 guy can send you screaming for a bottle of whiskey before lunch.

_______________
Tom Merritt
EdgeTech, Inc.

by ctos

Your reply and solution is the most logical one I have ever heard! Yes, I too have run into trouble with the OEM and older versions of windows products...no support. I believe that the only way to handle MOST things is to request info from your peers; they have been there and have done it! I for one wish to thank you TheChas for a logical AND helpfull solution! Most of the time you are either highly charged or ignored by the manufacturers of software...they can not help or wont. I never DID get any answers to a problem from MSN or Dell in the matter with this machine. I believe I ended up reformatting the hard drive again! lol

by d.h. cesare

Same deal. Because it's OEM, you can't get suport. And I'm usually not smart enough to figure out how to fix things without a technician. Sometimes the technician ain't smart enough either, then I don't feel so bad :-))

by kevg

I never relised that it was an OEM product until I phoned Micosoft. I saw the fellow that I bought it from the other day and he's just as amused/puzzled/miffed.
The reason that I phoned M.S. was that I couldn't get onto the NET, so TECHREPUBLIC which would have being my 1st choice was...?
Problem turned out to be the modem, even though an old DOS program - TELIX, was working fine.

by thechas

On every Microsoft OEM version CD that I have had, the holographic label on the CD has included the fact that it was on OEM version.

For W95 and W98, the product keys included the letters OEM in the key. In fact, part of the product key string was an identifier for specific OEMs such as Compaq and Dell.

Chas

by maxwell edison

.
Isn't it "against the rules" to sell an OEM software product, especially a MS operating system, by itself without being preloaded on a system?

by chug

Did it come in a box like you find on the shelf at Best Buy or CompUSA, or did you just buy a CD and maybe some papers? If it didn't come in an actual fancy box, it's not retail.

by brummy21

Got your own answer there:

"I saw the fellow that I bought it from the other day and he's just as amused/puzzled/miffed".

That fellow is only amused/puzzled/miffed becuase he is totaly ignorant of the conditions of selling OEM software and is a rogue who should never have sold it to you. You should be calling him to account for wrongly selling you the OEM product and then washing his hands of his legal obligations to you, and to Microsoft.

by onbliss

..phew. That is a nasty way to talk to customer for that matter anybody [except telemarketers :-) ]. Or did they think you were a telemarketer?

You were using their product. You paid your hard earned money, instead of pirating...they should treat you with all the professional courtesy that is required.

by spgoodman

There are more suitable routes to go through to get satisfaction on a support issue than the telephone... But since it's the modem that caused your problem it would be a bit like the old "in the event of network problems contact us by email" joke.

On the other hand, however, PC assembly is not for those who simply want to save money on the entire unit. It's not a simple thing, and if one thinks about the complexity of an operating system, PCI/BIOS/other hardware foibles, and the combination of the above, one's time is best spent looking for a *qualified* tech person to do the assembly and installations for them.

The IT sector's most neglected question is often "How much is my time worth?" - and since PC assembly isn't exactly something one can master in an afternoon, non-technical users need to ask themselves how much time they might spend in comparison with someone who isn't just putting together PCs in their spare time.

This is not a belittling comment, but a fact of simple time management involving expertise. I wouldn't expect to be able to write as good a Will in as little time as a good solicitor/lawyer could; as good an investment plan as a qualified investment advisor; or as good a damp-proof course as someone who does this for a living. While the DIY spirit has indeed motivated many people to excell in the IT arena, it's not until much experience has been assimilated that one does more than learn.

It doesn't help that one of the most difficult problems IT has in the UK is that the business has been populated with what they call "cowboys", much like the masses of plumbers who still aren't CORGI-registered and don't charge (or pay!) VAT. Most of these folks are only interested in the short-term benefits, ie money, and NOT interested in the slightest in helping others. The IT sector is a Service Industry, and not just a fast track to fame and fortune, but don't tell these guys. It's no wonder as a result that technical consultants in the UK are finding it difficult to survive (though the government's ongoing campaign to make us all 'simply go to the JobCentre' despite no IT jobs being there doesn't help). Since moving to London in 2000, I've learned that IT consultants have probably as bad a name as the hack jobbers who pretend to be painters-decorators but have never learned anything about the kinds of paint required for external use (in many cases they deserve it); and given the nature of people to assume the negative by default, especially when there's so much of it about, it's easy to think "Where else do I go?"

I don't unfortunately have an answer for that question unless one is in my part of town. I also won't try to apologize for the poor social skills of otherwise-expertised people on the phone "at Microsoft", and would recommend complaining to them in writing as opposed to email, which is still quite ignorable to many people, and still not accepted as a legal form of notification.

If they don't hear about it, it's not a problem, yes?

by thechas

Max,

One of my local PC shops will sell you any OEM software with a minimum hardware purchase. Which they define as a mouse pad.

NewEgg, M-Wave, and many other web based PC sellers will sell you the OEM version with some minimal hardware purchase.

The people selling OEM version software on E-Bay are including random pieces of non-functional hardware.

Even a couple of web based software houses send you a dead motherboard when you purchase OEM software.

Does this violate the spirit of the OEM license?
Yes, I think so.

Apparently though, Microsoft is accepting this arrangement.

Chas

by kevg

But the botton line is what happen when the company that you bought it from closes down?

by binwah

Kev,

When ever you buy anything you should always be aware of who the support is going to come from. If the retail shrink wrapped version of the product sells for $120 and the OEM version from the man in the little shop costs $70 then you should instinctively ask yourself why is it cheaper? Something pays for support and that something is money pure and simple.

I have used OEM software whenever I could as the price was lower, however I knew that any support would have to come from myself or some knowledgable person who I could ask. With the spread of the internet Google is the first place to search. It will usually spew out all sorts of answers and it is then upto you to figure out what to do.

by robert.d.lewis

Microsoft shouldn't be able to have it both ways. They sell a buggy product. They allow hobbyists to buy the oem software from retailers. You don't own the software, they own it. You can only use it on the "original equipment".

But when it comes to needing support for the product, because it doesn't work correctly, you are expected to pay for it...

Lets see, I sell you a defective product and then charge you to fix the problems which exist in it? You know, if it were any other type of commodity/good we would be screaming about the responsibility of the manufacturer to make a defect free product and make them accountable.

All I am seeing here is we should expect this kind of treatment. This is why I am going to go to Linux. I don't need that kind of attitude in my life. Microsoft has the best of both worlds: they have an operating system which is the standard, yet they are not held accountable for its flaws! This needs to be fixed!!!!!!!!

by rkuun

OEM/DSP products are sold to the RESELLERS by Microsoft Excluding the Price of the Support, thats why it's so much cheaper... there is'nt a single product that you dont pay for support on. whether the price is included or you pay afterwards, you DO pay!! Microsoft have an agreement with the resellers that preinstall the software that they actually do all the support, so if you have a Mecer machine, that came preinstalled with Windows... phone Mecer. If you bought a DSP copy of windows without a major hardware component you were sold the product outside of the liscensing agreement... and this is why it's not supported. The resellers should really tell there clients more about what it is exactly that they are selling!! Hardly any one know about this, so you guys are not alone!!

by chug

That's always a risk no matter where you buy anything from. Even if you had bought the whole computer from somebody, there's no guarantee they'll be around to support you. There have been numerous computer companies go out of business and left customers hanging. Take Packard Bell and AST, once huge names, now non-existant. As much as I like them, I fear Gateway is next. It's even a bigger risk if you buy from a local shop. We have local independent shops open and close all the time in my town.

by rkuun

i dont know about any where else but if you call MS in South Africa, and tell them your reseller went bust they will give you your standard two Warranty calls 9 times out of ten...

by chug

***(Sorry for the duplicate posts. The web site freaked out on me when I tried to submit it and it created multiple posts of the same message.)***

That's always a risk no matter where you buy anything from. Even if you had bought the whole computer from somebody, there's no guarantee they'll be around to support you. There have been numerous computer companies go out of business and left customers hanging. Take Packard Bell and AST, once huge names, now non-existant. As much as I like them, I fear Gateway is next. It's even a bigger risk if you buy from a local shop. We have local independent shops open and close all the time in my town.

by chug

***(Sorry for the duplicate posts. The web site freaked out on me when I tried to submit it and it created multiple posts of the same message.)***

That's always a risk no matter where you buy anything from. Even if you had bought the whole computer from somebody, there's no guarantee they'll be around to support you. There have been numerous computer companies go out of business and left customers hanging. Take Packard Bell and AST, once huge names, now non-existant. As much as I like them, I fear Gateway is next. It's even a bigger risk if you buy from a local shop. We have local independent shops open and close all the time in my town.

by tg2

from your link.. one of the options is to "Purchase assisted support from Microsoft" ... you click the link.. "The Requested Web Page is Not Available...The page you were looking for is currently not available. The address may not be correct, or there may be a temporary problem with this site."

Granted its probably a glitch, but could very well be that it doesn't properly exist..

it reminds me of when Nimda/Code Red came out.. you could go to www.microsoft.com .. and then click a link for "frontpage" and it would direct you to a different server, one that was infected with nimda & code red.. :)

Oh.... to wish the days of microsoft were numbered... and decreasing from single digits not tera-digits

by sauerb01

If you had read the licensing agreement when it popped up during the installation process you would have seen that the disk you were using was an OEM disk and you also would have read that Microsoft does not support OEM installations. I know that only a handful of people have ever read the agreement, but the customer service rep at MS was correct. HOWEVER, the CS rep should have handled the conversation more professionally. As a side note; if the software from MS does not come in a retail box then it is more then likely an OEM version. This has been the case since the DOS days with MS.

by leev

It seems the issue is with where you bought the CD not that you built the PC. Next time buy a full license and get support. Buying a OEM CD is for those who will provide the support whether it's a shop or support yourself.

by plainranger

It has been my experience since the release of Win95 to present ( if only Linux offered everything and was 100% compatible) Microsoft is not willing to give any help unless they can charge their going rate. Last time I contacted them, years ago, that rate was $65 for the first 15 minutes.
I rely on my own knowledge or seek out information from workers and friends. If it's a MS problem then whatever I do feel I'm not going to hurt it.

by blarman

It's now up to $125 per incident, and $250 for server-level stuff.

And you're exactly right - M$ isn't interested in ANY kind of service, just money. Which makes all of their complaining about support for Linux just a little bit hilarious due to the hypocrisy.

by hillsa

Per the MS OEM System Builder site:

"The OEM System Builder License grants you the right to distribute individual Windows? licenses with a non-peripheral computer hardware component, which means hardware that is essential to the functioning of the PC.

However, application or server software (such as Office or Exchange) may ONLY be distributed with a fully assembled computer system. You may NOT distribute them with non-peripheral hardware."

"A non-peripheral hardware component is one essential to running a PC

Examples of non-peripheral hardware:
Memory
Internal drives
Mice
Keyboards
Power supplies/cords

Examples of components not considered essential are:
Scanners
Printers
Cameras
External modems
Networking devices"

I am under the understanding that all OEM licenses fall under the OEM System Builder License as you/your company must join in order to get the OEM software from a distributor.

by kevin w

Vendors get OEM software cheaply because they support it. If you get (legitimately) a copy of OEM software to use on a home built, you basically agreed to support it yourself and save money by making that agreement.

I feel sorry for those who didn't realize this going into the deal, but that is what it's all about.

by kferraro1

I guess this is the risk you take when you deal with small (or large)companies whose stability is in question. When you buy OEM software, the support contract is between the software manufacturer and the factory. You as the end user are completely removed from the picture as far as the software manufacturer is concerned. When you pay more for a product from a large/stable company one of the things you pay for is the ability they have to support the product.

by jmschattke9

If I, as a knowledgable consumer, purchase parts and install an OEM copy of software on the computer, then I am both the end-user and the OEM.

Of course, the support from MS is for non-VAR copies; many, but not all, OEM copies are sold through a VAR, because, as many have noted, it is cheaper.

by randalbin

In the past year or so the rules for OEM versions of MS software have been somewhat relaxed. They used to require a major hardware purchase (indicating a significant change or upgrade to the system) and this was sufficient to qualify for an OEM software purchase.

As has been mentioned most Computer parts suppliers are now allowed to sell OEM software with any computer part. I recently purchased 3 copies of MS XP Home and each one was packed with an inexpensive part (supplied at no charge). 2 copies came with CD audio cables and one came with a power supply extension cable.

Apparently, as long as there is another part on the invoice the terms of the agreement are satisfied. Although I doubt if MS feels the spirit of the agreement is satisfied.

That being said, OEM software is less expensive because the installer is taking on the burden of support. If I choose to build computers, install OEM software, and sell them, this makes me the OEM supplier and I take on the burden of support.

If you buy retail box software you pay extra for the support.

Randy Albin

by pillbug22

I have a feeling MS isn't missing out on too much cash from retailers selling more copies of OEM software. Just means more people who have to pay for support when you call MS.

Just like most businesses, I bet MS makes more profit from services than products.

by ballroomdancer

Even if you buy the full retail versions, you get only limited support from Microsoft.

At one time if you bought NT Workstation 4.0 or was it Windows 2000 Professional, you were only allowed 2 support calls before having to pay. However Windows 95/98, etc. would allow for multiple calls.

Given I got spoiled with OS/2, I prefered a better multi-tasking OS than Win 95/98. As a result, MS penalized me for it... :(

I run MS OSs at home simply because I need to stay current for my work. Long for an alternative. Miss my OS/2 and likely will eventually try LINUX as long past fed up with MS.

by the docman

I hate to be a devil's advocate here, but if you want support, go out and buy a retail copy of the product. Some support is usually built in to the pricing of retail versions. You didn't pay for it with the OEM product.

If you were looking for manufacturer support for the components of your home built PC, you could have purchased retail versions of the OS and all of the applications... It would have cost a fortune, but you got what you paid for.

In order to provide reasonably priced alternatives, most of the software industry offers OEM products with the expectation that the OEM provides the support.

(Go ahead and rekindle the debate about M$ profits if you want, but the purchase, and the risk, was your choice.)

by alanrphipps

I also had a problem with MS as I am a home builder and used an OEM Sofware package i.e Windows XP Pro. I actually broke my master disk and have no way of replacing a perfectly legal version for the same reasons Kev mentioned. Luckily I have my copy CD, but it would be nice to have the master disk in a useable format again. Any ideas everyone??? (I would even pay a small fee for a replacement Master disk) Perhaps Linux beckons.

by toucan

Try the MSDN site, I recall being able to access the download site and get the IOS image to create a new CD. Naturally you need your license to install and I think only real CD Keys work not OEMs.

by vitaman203

The trade off of OEM software is that in exchange for a lower priced piece of software, you do not get the level of support or documentation you would if you purchased the higher priced non-OEM version of the software. Hence, you get what you pay for.

by ctos

I know you are correct, BUT! If a company wishes to maintain a good customer satisfaction base, I think they should allow at least ONE service call on the OEM cheaper version. Imagine how MANY times the phone rings Microsoft from and OEM customer, just to have them go away with startled and hurt feelings in a week...
Good customer service, huh? lol
Ah well, not everyone is concerned about that aspect as I am.

by teksoup

Microsoft knows that many MS Authorized resellers of XP and OEM MS other products can't support them. No one has the knowledge, experience or resources that Microsoft possesses. If MS offered free support for 30 days after the first call for Tech Support the matter could be resolved with equity.

But that's not the way Microsoft rules the World since Microsoft is in the Driver's Seat with little competition.

A good reason to seek, develop, and support 'alternatives' to Microsoft's DEATH GRIP!
Otherwise, it will only get worse, and besides WPA perhaps future MS applications will REQUIRE an ANNUAL MAINT. FEE just to activate an application. Gates NEEDS the MONEY ! (Gates & Ballmer's wealth, alone, show how 'overpriced' are MS applications !

by allprobikes

I have been supporting MS products now since 1995 and I have never ever called them. Why everythng you want to know about a problem is on the net. If the computer you have is not working, go to one that does. The answers to everything are out there. Besides I don
t have time to wait on the phone.

by carlr

Amen brother! preach it!! I started supporting them with DOS v3.0 and have never called them for support. Every piece of info i needed to support the software came from books, the net, or strategically placed friends Bottom line is, if you cannot figure out a problem with a microsoft piece of software, there are way more resources than calling MS Tech Support flunkies to try and get an answer.

by toddah

I really feel the MS rep was out of line if indeed the conversation ended as stated.
BUT
This is an issue of MS not giving support it is not required to give by contract.

Understanding what you are buying is the key here not changing the Microsoft stance. You should be upset with the guy who went out of business not MS. They sold him the OEM versions at a GREATLY discounted price (which he pass on to you)with the contractual obligation to provide the end user support. You can get full support for any in MS product by paying the per call rate! You are now paying the difference between the discounted "DEAL" you got on the original OEM license and the full retail cost of the over the counter package you should have bought. He was violating his contract by selling you the disks anyway. you can only legally buy OEM as part of a full system but many have reinterpited that rule. You will find the same issue with a DELL or HP or SONY also they are your support center.

by paparulo01

As an IT pro in a major firm in Argentina for the last 15 years, I have a lot of issues to discuss with MSoft.
And I fully agree with You in that MS doesn't give the slightest shadow of a support.
Maintaining the hardware and software of almost 800 desktop computers, from Compaq and IBM , and almost 400 laptops of the same brands, all of them bought brand new, never, in any case I had a positive answer from Microsoft's tech support.
I've called them nearly 25...30 times in all those years, finding that, in every case, they tell You to "reinstall the o.s." (after "download the last updates", of course), if they give you an answer at all.
So long, folks.....
Long life to TUX......LINUX: here We go!!!!
Hugs from down under.
Rolf

by paparulo01

I forgot to mention that, in aaaall those computers, the O.S. is not OEM.It's the original MS software, for which We are paying A LOT of money in concept of "licensing"
Rolf

by tired-tech

OK,.. so I buy an oss the shelf unit and take it home,......

I have a HD failure and replace the drive, on re-install of OS it won't take the CD on the sticker placed on the outside of the case as my "license"
but a problem comes up as "This key has been used too many times, please call Microsoft"
but since it's an OEM and I'm the only ione to install it ?? how did it get used too many times ??

now the only difference I see here is an off the shelf unit or a "built" unit,... uuummmm
If I purchase to parts to build a new system and am allowed to purchase an OEM of the XP OS,. but end up needing to call microsoft for a "real" issue (one I can't fix myself is very rare)
how is that any different.
It seems that MS is just getting a little bit like the bully on the playground. (you know,.. gimme your lunch money or else...)

Just my .02

by toddah

Where would I find one of those "products" as complex as windows that was "bug free"
After you get to Linux please post the phone number of the "free" corporate tech support line for all teh rest of us.
If the end user need to call MS for tech support then he will really be in trouble with Linux support (fine OS for the technically inclined)

by robert.d.lewis

At least most people know when they buy linux they can make as many copies as they want, give them to friends etc. without breaking any laws.

The point I was making that when people pay for any other type of defective product, they expect the manufacturer to correct the problem. There is no such expectation of Microsoft.

The user community to include business and personal has allowed this to continue unchecked. And now, we buy into the idea that defective software is ok to buy....even if we have to pay for support later on....get real...

As for a consolidated support number for Linux??? I don't know of any...oh wait, when you buy a real distro, you do get support.....typically for at least 90 days.

Microsoft owes its market position not because the product is without flaws, but because it works well enough for most users. It is a terribly flawed product and to have to pay Microsoft for support only adds insult to injury.

by jdracy

I bought an HP laptop that came with XP Home, but wanted XP Professional. The store (a national chain) suggested I just purchase the upgrade and do it myself, which I did. After installing, the OneTouch buttons no longer worked.

Called HP, who told me that modifying the system voided any warranty and that I was not going to get any help. My response was the same as KG's: resolve the problem myself.

In addition, I have never bothered to call HP for support again, now that I know they will drop me at any hint that they can blame someone else.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm today. Software maker blames hardware maker who blames software maker who blames hardware maker... It's ridiculous and a huge waste of my time.

by mmecum

I had the same experience with MS on a Sony PC, and found Sony support about worthless as well, they pointed me back to MS!!

by tomh

If MS doesn't want to support OEM (cheaper versions of Windows), there should be an inexpensive upgrade path from OEM to full package for Windows of all levels. Even OEM (Dell, Gateway, etc.) can't support Windows like MS.

by michael.litcofsky

OEM version is only for when you buy a system at an authorized computer manufacturer or reseller. You are not supposed to be able to buy it alone. Just like everything you buy from a software supplier, you get what you pay for or in this case don't pay for. It's like using a free version of Linux and then want a deal on upgrading to RedHat.

by noorman

indeed, M$ made the buggy software, but beware, because they also make up the rules !!!!!

If I hadn't started with Windoze in 1997 and had instead gone with UNIX and Linux, I would be a lot better of and a lot less crancky ...

by toddah

I would expect to hear this type of crap on a computers 101 newbie board but not here on a Tech republic board where we all assumibly have some level of technical knowledge. GET OVER IT ! YOU DUG YOUR OWN HOLE ! BUY A RETAIL LICENSE and get the support YOU need.

by toddah

With all the brain drain caused by this dumb thread I am sure we could have collectivly solved your computer issue with much less typing and you could have been a happy guy. unless the whole point was just to bash MS.

by toucan

Perhaps the original point was to provide FYI on OEM vs retail edition. Society could probably add MS to the list of polite subject to be avoided along with politics and religion.

by shraven

So what?
The dude has an OEM disc - which he came by either through legitimate channels which include no support (know what you're buying) or through questionable means.
So what's the issue? The guy's an idiot either way for calling MS in the first place. He should be glad they didn't push the issue regarding how he came to be in possession of an OEM disc with no OEM to call.
I don't like MS, but in this case, I find no fault with them for not supporting him. As for their rude response, I don't see any claim that these were quotes and I'm thinking that the rep was in fact a little more professional, but kevg was just so frustrated that it seemed this rude to him. Look at his retort - it doesn't even make sense, let alone the spelling.

Try to find some more worthwhile issues for us to argue over, OK?

by jstevens

Got to agree. When you buy cheap, you get cheap.
Besides, in the amount of time it would take to get MS to resolve an issue you can nuke it and be back up running.

by jstevens

Got to agree. When you buy cheap, you get cheap.
Besides, in the amount of time it would take to get MS to resolve an issue you can nuke it and be back up running.

by bbarnes3

I use OEM software too, both at home and at work, because it costs substantially less than retail.

There are 2 conditions on using OEM; first it's supposed to be installed on a new computer, and secondly the tech support is the responsibility of the computer manufacturer, and not the software company.

That's the rules on OEM, and that's why it's cheaper. The home user needs to buy retail if he wants tech support.

Microsoft may have sounded heartless, but they were correct in denying the support.

by brummy21

Microsoft OEM XP is sold to system builders at a reduced price compared with retail product - part of the deal is that the system builder contracts with MS to provide support to the end user. So Microsoft sell the OS at a price which means they don't cover support costs. Also, as a system builder, I can only say that if someone decides to assemble their own PC, then they need to be competent to do it and sort any problems out that may arise.

You wouldn't dream of buying new piston rings for your car engine and then expect the part supplier to spend time helping you reassemble your engine when you don't quite have the expertise you thought you had.

Everyone seems to think they're an expert at building their own PC 'till something goes wrong. I sell MS OEM OSs strictly in line with the license terms, but unfortunately the world is awash with rogue dealers who break the rules when selling OEM product without a complete PC. So what would you have Microsoft do - stop distributing OEM to smaller system builders because there are some rogues about and so hand the big brands price advantage on a plate - we'd all be quick to shout about that.

As usual the PC user world is doing its best to put Microsoft between a rock and a hard place. We grumble when MS don't support concession price product and we sure as eggs is eggs would grumble if MS put the price up to cover support to inexperienced PC makers.

Bottom line - you solved the problem yourself so you're obviously a competent PC assembler and the whole thing has worked exactly as it is supposed to. And as MS rightly intended !!!!!!

by nettec2

I am a registerd Microsoft computer OEM, as such I am required to use the OEM CD for instalation.

Problem is that even when encounter problems that we may not be familiar with and that the KB can't answer.

I have had occassion in the past to call MS Support (or lack of)for a machine that I have built for someone or even ended up having a problem with one of my own personal machines.

In those cases they either wanted to charge me an arm and a leg or refused to do anything because the cd key was for OEM. It is very frustrating especially when they tell you to go back to the OEM and you are the OEM and you can't get the support you need for their product. I have had a couple cases where the problem actually ended up being a bug in the software that they knew about but didn't tell anyone and instances where the CD itself was defective I bought a 3 back and 2 of the 3 disks were defective, They did replace one of the disks but not both.

I called my distributor and they told me they couldn't replace it because they couldn't break a pack, and that it was up to Microsoft to relpace it, I called Microsoft they told me it was up to the distributor and that I could also try the publisher of the CD, I tried calling them but they don't answer their phone, and when I tried to e-mail them the answer was to get it replaced by Microsoft end result I'm still out a OEM CD I paid for.

I feel it is there product and they should support it especially when they require us as registered OEM's to use their OEM products and to purchase in minimum size packs.

I feel your pain.

by nacromancer9

Go to http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_abc.htm or
http://www.kellys-korner.com/ This is the place for all kinds of knowledge you will never get from a phone support person anywhere. Another place to go and ask questions, get software utilities, etc. is http://www.bootdisk.com Kelly's Corner was created by a lady who works for Microsoft Technical support Division. This information I have given you is what they use as a quick reference support. You could spend a lifetime in there going from A-Z to know it all. But then again you should always keep in mind the support forums such as they have at http://www.wincustomize.com/index.asp?c=1&u=0 , bootdisk.com , and the most commonly known one www.screensavers.com are always a good place to spend a few years reading Faq's and discussions about all kinds of tweaks and tips. MSN also has a members group that you can go in and chat with a live technical support person for free called http://groups.msn.com/pchelpsupport/chat. You can post a question or chat live with someone who has been proven knowlegdeable in all areas of technical advice about your PC. Hope this helps you........

by jcrobso

If you buy a name brand PC you have to call them for support, MS will not help you. OEM version your on your own. A friend of mine bought the full retail XP, had to call MS for a problem and they still tried to get out of helping him told him to call the company that made the PC. Keep in mind the only reason that XP SP2 is free is because MS was found guilty in the antitrust case.

by dotxen

I worked in Cape Town as a trainer and almost all the PCs were built jobbies. The same problems arose.

Best plan....tell MS to stick it up there help-desk and start using a professional, stable and secure operating system with world-wide support - I give you SuSE my friend. And long may you sail in it.

I tell you this is a Microsoft engineer and instructor (of 10 years experience with MS prods and tech support). We pray for the day when ALL servers go SuSe (or other distro) and let the desktops stay in their comfort-zones with XP, or whatever the next unpatchable, bloated, insecure operating system is called.

Still, keeps me in work. Shouldn't grumble.

by milfordwillie

One hundred million years ago when dust hadn't settled on Internet install disks yet, I went with the Microsoft Network. It seemed logical: the makers of the operating system running an internet service made sense?

Boy?

I stumbled with MSN over an issue downloading my email for several weeks. My mail was hopelessly locked up and I could not download email. Several long distance calls to MSN were no luck. I finally reached a supervisor who acknowledged all the problems I had gone through and offered to call me back to take the Long Distance call. He resolved that we would get to the bottom of the problem before he hung up the phone.

After checking several settings, reloading and restarting the computer, reinstalling MSN from the disk and jumping through a dozen hoops, the guy was stumped. We had spent well over two hours on the phone. His troubleshooter information screen had run out of stuff to check. He finally had me look at the version of the mail program I was using. It was Outlook 97.

MSN: ?So you?re not using Outlook Express? You have Office 97??

Me: ?Correct,? I said, ?Is that a problem??

MSN: ?Yeah, that?s not our problem? you need to call the Office Support Line.?

Me: ?You mean the MICROSOFT Office Support Line??

MSN: ?Yeah, they deal with Office.?

Me: ?Can?t you just transfer the call??

MSN: ?That?s MS Support. You have to call them.?

I wrote a pretty pithy letter to MSN canceling my account immediately after getting off the phone with them. I have no doubt that the letter ended up in the circular file. I have been with my current ISP since and had no complaints, especially after they have offered prime service and a toll free support number that I have seldom had to use. Never had a problem with email again.

by rkuun

Please ignore my previous remark. Invariably, all support provided by Microsoft is not free. If it were retail - the support is included in the price; Volume licenses ? support is purchased over and above the volume license agreement; and various other contracts. If the retailer were to close down, then Microsoft CANNOT carry the cost of the support as they were never paid for it in the first place. It?s like buying a car without a maintenance plan and then demanding the maintenance plan benefits. Had one bought it with the benefits, the cost would have been more. As far as bugs are concerned, Microsoft provides known bug-fixes for free; as well as security updates. A lot of issues raised here are found in the license agreement.

by estrelralph

I strongly believe that whether a product is OEM or not, the product should be supported by both the manufacturer and the originator of the PC, expecially if you "paid" for the product and also may have "paid" for the support service. Therefore, if I purchase a computer from Dell or any other computer supplier, should all the software installed be solely supported by Dell? This does not sound realistic to many. I believe that there needs to be an escalation process. Not everyone is technically inclined to provide their own support for OEM products. Besides there are consumers out there that don't know what OEM even means.

by whizpc1

Because of Microsoft's policy of not giving support for their product(s), regardless of where it was brought, you will see more & more piracy, copies made & sold or outright giving copies away. That's what happens to GREEDY SOBs. They deserve it. Too bad they hide behind the law when somebody rips them off but a user cannot use the law to made good on their promises and products. Gates, you are a DONKEYHOLE.

by bpines

i believe that if your copy of XP is Legit then M.S. should support it. If they don't want to support then they should sell error free products.

by pnielsen

I am a VAR and have a relationship with Microsoft through the Partners Program. Last month I had a problem with an Office XP upgrade that I could not resolve on a machine that I built. The latest service pack would not load properly.

Microsoft was notified, but did not reply. Eventually, I figured out what the problem was and was able to updated the product, but without any help from MS. I posted both the request for help on-line and the eventual answer myself. As frustrating as that is, it turned out that Microsoft's update software was not installed or working properly on their site, and therefore did not recognized the files it had downloaded to the machine as actual updates.

I sometimes feel MS is only interested in answering problems that are easy or that they already have an answer for. New ones are accumulated until they have enough demand to justify putting any resources on it.

by robh

MS did the right thing in kevq's situation. MS dominates the market because they tried to be all OS's to all hardware. Even crappy hardware. The OEM version allows vendors to bundle the OS on "whatever" they chose to build it on, so if you bought substandard parts, or parts with crappy drivers, why should MS have to support that. The vendor you bought it from has that responsibility, which is why OEM OS software can be purchased at a lower price to System Vendors don't have to tack on a $389 cost to the machine. If you buy the OS in the store and install it, MS will support it. If you build your own, or buy it from Dell, Gateway, HP or whomever, you have to call the company you bought it from for OS support. In this case, because the vendor went out of business, you are on your own. It's not Microsoft's responsibility to support your hardware when the OS acts "funny". That's on you.

by frantz11368

I worked on a project at a major hospital in New York back in 1999 putting an NT Domain within a Nivell Netware Backbone network. I had to roll out Terminal Server NT 4.0 RDP. In the process I had to install MS Office on the TS. Unfortunately Clipart would not work on the Terminal Server. The team and I came with a sloppy solution as a quick fix. When we contacted Microsoft for support, they in turn asked us if we had done anything in the mean time to solve the problem. Innocently, we told them about our dirty quick fix. Three (3) weeks went by before we finally heard back from Microsoft. They had the nerves to give us as their solution the "DIRTY QUICK FIX" that we had come up with. We had other issues with printing locally from a Terminal Server session. We could never get a solution from Microsoft either. I guess that all I can say (without being sarcastic) is "Welcome to the real world of support from Miky Mouse.

Cheers;

FV

by buddytd

Not sure what you expected, Kev. When I sell a computer with the OS, I get the OS from my supplier. They support me, and I support my customers. MS is not involved - that's part of the deal. I've been a VAR for over 17 years.

Of course, I am paying a wholesale price for the OEM OS, not retail, and the money I make on the resale pays, in part, for my support of the product.

If you had purchased the full retail product from an authorized reseller, MS would have supported you. Just as they support me for the products I have purchased to use in my business.

We all realize MS has a lot of money, but it is unreasonable to expect them, or any other firm, to provide something for nothing.

Bud Izen
Keizer Oregon

by robert.d.lewis

Bottom line: Microsoft should supply bug free products. They charge a premium for the software. They should support it, OEM or not.

by stuart_lesnett

XP version (OEM) purchased from Tigerdirect with components for a new pc. Microsoft Support Center's Utah facility was the recipient of my call, I think Utah support center, which was in the process of being outsourced to India and support engineer would be looking for a job in a month. The only reason I know all this is it took 4 hours to get XP up and running (3 different 128k memory sticks, 2 different cd drives and then their replacement after the initial systems build.
My point is that last night the final presidential debate was held on domestic issues. I continued to think about the support person now jobless. I have had to use MS support since then and the quality of communication (English) was very limited and be sure to bring money. I purchased the product and expect support at a reasonable price which means 2 people have to beable to communicate. I which you all luck, I looking at linux as alternative for my non-governement customer to reduce cost, especially to correct some of the security problem with IE.

by bywhatnow

We at "WHAT NOW!" Computers in Middleburg, Florida build and support our own computers. We have had the times that a "software" problem required us to find an answer from Microsoft. We, too, have found that MS does not appear to care about those of us in the OEM channel. However, as a regular attender of the TS/2 meeting, I have several email address of thier tech support people. We also use the knowledge base very extensivly. I am appalled the MS does act toward the OEM segment as red headed "bastard" step childern, as they are always telling me how much they want my business and support for them. I have a meeting in my area with MS on the 21st of this month and I will address this problem and give an update on thier answer. Michael

by jyoun3

Your comment about the "red headed bastard" is offensive.
Perhaps next time you could choose another analogy?

Joshua

by bs analyst

I just purchased an OEM copy of Office 2003 Pro at my college. It is sold as a "student/teacher" version, but the disc is clearly marked OEM. Didn't have to purchase any hardware.

by rburello

You could always pay for support and it does not have to come from microsoft, it could come from one of their partners.

by z80man

I have had the same experience, but then I have also had Microsoft refuse to support products we use at work, even though we have a huge contract with them. I bet if you pay, they might support, but even when I have gotten support from them, it was nearly worthless. I find forums and other user sources to be more useful, though it does take time to wade through the info. There is a reason so many folks love to hate Microsoft.

by pka

Long ago I quit using MS Support. While we are an authorized oem distributor we also don't recommend nor install oem 2k or XP but instead sell the user a retail version if they want it. But to the guy with the problem, it's never been a secret that MS won't support their oem products so he needs to quit whining.

by pbiss

Companies like Microsoft and Dell are obsessed with limiting the support that they give to consumer customers. Ask them anything out of the ordinary and they send you packing.
Considering the number of consumer customers, their lack.in many cases, of skill and just plain laziness, we can hardly be surprised. I know that Dell can also be extremely supportive of the right kind of question - it earns them income from their premium rate number!

by pbiss

Companies like Microsoft and Dell are obsessed with limiting the support that they give to consumer customers. Ask them anything out of the ordinary and they send you packing.
Considering the number of consumer customers, their lack.in many cases, of skill and just plain laziness, we can hardly be surprised. I know that Dell can also be extremely supportive of the right kind of question - it earns them income from their premium rate number!

by mdpetrel

We need to start a grass roots movement to force legislation that will protect consumer rights for all. Start with an inquiry directed to your state's PIRG.

A pc w/o an OS is like a car w/o a steering wheel. I don't care how many pgm'ers feel they need to be paid for their efforts, intellectual property, etc. You, the consumer, are *forced* to purchase an OS. As such, having to pay between $100US & $200US to upgrade from Windows 95/98/ME to Windows XP is excessive. This is *not* simple suplly & demand; this is commerce has gone awry.

The least MS can do is offer absolutely free (1-800) tech support w/ no waiting on the phone. They *can* afford it. Bill Gates alone makes more than $40 billion. He can spend $500 million of his own pocket money to staff a larger support center, and still have $43 & 1/2 billion dollars left over.

mdp

by beaujester

Someone is missing the whole point with this complaint. When the OEM product is first used with the application it will ask for an internet connexion or telephone line to confirm the coding and registration. Unregistered OEM products are time limited and therefore will become invalid. (MS)OEM products that are correctly registered are assured backup and assistance from the helpdesk. Unauthorized copies of OEM CD's, or CD's that have been "borrowed" from wholesale lots of company comp.s will not have the backing of MS.

by blueknight

I had a very similar experience myself quite some time ago. In the end, I solved the problem with the help of a tech friend of mine at work and good information I found via the web.

In my opinion, MS created the software and therefore should support it. If they don't want to provide support then they should get out of the business (or give the product(s) away free with no warranty or support provisions).

Yeah... support IS the weakest link

by jwgii2001

I run a small computer graphics company. I had a problem with XP not loading up on one computer. Calling Microsoft revealed the same problem. I built all the computers used by my company. As a result of my experience. I now only one computer running XP, the others are now running Linux. At this time the one computer computer is only being used for the graphics application. When I next upgrade that application I plan to get the linux version instead. My problem turned out to be a corrupted Windows XP file.

by jurgislasevicius9

I agree as I have had the same problem over here in Brazil, maybe we all should start migrating over to Linux and give these guys(MS)a slap to wake them up irrespective of wether its OEM or not this bunch of so and so's designed and manufactured the product.
I would liken it to buying a vehicle and just because you did not buy it from the manufacturers dealer they are now not willing to service or repair the car even if you're willing to pay. I have migrated my browser over to Firefox - away from IE as I'm fed up to the back teeth with MS' attitudes, the only reason I run MS on one of my machines is that as I work from home and have to use MS Word to be compatible with my clients.

by anthonyw34

This does not apply to homebuilt, but all computers that come with OEM OS's. Thats right I had a Toshiba laptop that came with the OEM XP on it and it had a problem. MS told me to talk to Toshiba about the problem. Okay I called Toshiba to have the problem fixed. You know what they told me after a few minutes with a less than knoledgable tech representative... yes you guessed it... call MS. I finally said to hell with this and sold the laptop and bought an Apple one. No problems with OS X and great tech support. I have really began to loath MS for not even as so much to have any support for their OEM OS's when they sell them to manufacures. PS - I have also heard aboutthe same problem with a home built PC's from others as well.
Very fusterating!