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  • #2286657

    Novell Linux and future of Netware


    by pgm554 ·

    As a Novell dealer and consultant, it becoming clearer, that Netware is about to become the bastard child of Novell.

    I am unsure as to where the pieces of the puzzle lie, in that I am getting mixed signals as to where to turn my expertise (Look, if I am going to have to retool from Netware to Linux, then why not just go M$).
    The learning curve is a whole shorter in that I am fairly fluent in the OS anyway and M$ work is plentiful, while Netware is becoming very spotty.
    I have had no inquiries about Linux and Novell.

    I get more calls for Exchange and Windows admin than I do for Novell these days.
    Money talks and I have serious concerns about having to start from ground zero on the tech front with a new product.

    I have had little or no help with training on the new Linux stuff, while M$ offers me free (NFR) software (NOT time bombed) and substantial discounted training on their products available nationwide. AND I don?t have to travel hundreds of miles to catch a class someplace out of the way. Lookit, I don?t live in the middle of nowhere, unless the Silicon Valley has made the middle of nowhere list.

    Novell needs to convince me that my time, effort and loyalty to their product is worth something, before I make a whole hearted effort to do a 180 on something I have never supported or sold.

All Comments

  • Author
    • #2681276

      Reply To: Novell Linux and future of Netware

      by djent ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Why do you need to choose one or the other? It seems apparent that Linux is already or will be a mainstream technology, embracing it could only benefit you. If Novell’s version gets some traction any Linux experiance would be useful. A good mechanic needs a full toolbox and the training to use them.

      • #2684259

        Knowing more than 1 product line

        by mc ·

        In reply to Reply To: Novell Linux and future of Netware

        I will agree than knowing more than one vendor products is a good idea. I have to know MS products because they are in many places but learning Linux as served me quite well. Because I have Linux experience my current employer is looking at me to lead the Solaris project that we are getting. More training and more fun 🙂

        I think that putting all your eggs in one basket is too risky to just learn one thing. By knowing Linux and MS Windows it also helps me see strenght in both and were one solution is better than the other.

        • #2684088

          Don’t limit yourself!

          by prohta ·

          In reply to Knowing more than 1 product line

          I have to agree that the more you know the more powerful you become. I know Novell – am certified, I know M$ – MCP, and now I will be knowing Linux. My employer thinks that I walk on water because it does not matter what platform he talks about, I can enter the conversation intelligently. He is putting me through night school so that I can learn the Linux platform. How many bosses do you think do that? Usually only the ones that want you to learn what they already have, not what they don’t have.

          Being a businessman, my boss wants to stop enduring M$ and go to something that is more stable. Every month or more we are hearing about more patches, security breaches, and everything else that is going on in the M$ world. With Linux, I understand that I can lock it down so tight that I can’t even get my little finger in there!!

          Be good to yourself. Be good for your employer. Don’t limit yourself. Remember, knowledge is power!

        • #2684030

          look at macs

          by dqbiggerfam2 ·

          In reply to Don’t limit yourself!

          you say novell netware is dead? They were aying that about apple a while ago(7-10 years?). keep your knowledge of netware. as someone with experience with macs, I can be worth money in the right environment.

        • #2680898

          And in many cases, neither can your users

          by sbastian ·

          In reply to Don’t limit yourself!

          Just a thought.. The day when we all can get things done without learning shell commands *and* simultaneously have all the necessary *stable* software available, we’ll be in heaven. Until then, I couldn’t ever recommend a Linux/whatever only neighbourhood. Netware is dead, so is NT4.. MacOSX will probably stay dictated by Apple also, so the best choice would be to try to pick up the best things from all worlds. Which, sadly enough, is going to be pretty darn expensive.

        • #3382079

          Reality check

          by all2tropical ·

          In reply to Don’t limit yourself!

          No system is fail safe, right? However, the major difference in
          the Unix world is that the OS is only as safe and secure as the
          Admin is savvy. A novice Unix/Linux person does not have the
          base knowledge to manipulate a complex configurations of open
          Linux systems, or large clusters of Sun systems that have to
          route and interface with other platforms. It is especially trying
          when programers are creating security holes with their web
          applications. It takes knowledge, time and a lot of patience.

        • #2729457

          Hurrah! Novice Admins

          by pauldrumm ·

          In reply to Reality check

          I have been working with NT since Advanced Server 3.1 (no this is not Windows 3.1 young’uns), Novell since ver 2 and Unix, probably SCO was the oldest ver. 4 or 3? I forget. Apple? not worth the text.

          I have had networks running MS, Novell, and SCO (HP-UX, and Sun).
          I kept hearing about BSOD and NT is not stable Mostly from novice admins. People whom did not know how to read the HCL(look it up) did get blue screens much the same way SCO or unix dumped with ineffective hardware or improper set ups or the same way Novell abended when it had improper hardware or improper setups. I saw it all as a consultant.
          MS was always picked on, why? They had a GUI admin interface in the server OS that took the majority of the market so of course you heard more complaints from more novice, and I admit, experienced admins.

          NT 3.5 was rock solid for a file server as long as you followed MS guidelines. So was SCO but it was a pain in the keister to administer and too often the hardware selection was limited. Novell was the same. 3.12 was a great product but the admin functionallity really blew. Novell 4.11-6.5 had great addons and nice features for admins but fell short. They all had patches and security flaws, always. I never considered one much better than the other for a base OS but MS was easier to administer. If Checkpoint and Raptor could put firewalls on Microsoft NT then it could not be too bad.

          Hey, I have pushed customers from Novell 5.1 to 6.5 so I am not against any OS. It just made business sense.

          I still consider all products as rock solid, but for a administrator that needs to integrate 20 different functionalities on the same platform MS is the best, always improving. SQL, Exchange, Visual Studio, ISA, Biztalk, Commerce, IIS, etc. Sun, SCO, HP,and Novell failed to offer products to compliment the product line. Apple finally went to Unix, for Novell the writing was on the wall. Hmmm, I need an OS, a mail server, a database server (ouch Novell, should of bought out Sybase) that all comes from one vendor who I can call. I do not need vendors pointing fingers.

          Bottom line guys and gals. Move to MS and stop calling it M$ and whining. Most good admins saw the writing on the wall years ago. Novell is still a good system but with the smaller companies paying pennies to novice admins make you say, which is easier to administer, Novell, SCO, Solaris, Linux-pic-a-flavor,BSC Unix (or its variants – gee-Apple?), or Microsoft? Which has a shorter learning curve?

          Paul Drumm
          MCDBA,MCSE+I, MCSE, MCP+I,MCP and oh yeah, CCNA.
          The only other cert I bothered to get was a Cisco. I knew both of them would always be around.

        • #2729449

          Tears in my eyes

          by jmstrupp ·

          In reply to Hurrah! Novice Admins


        • #2729439

          One of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on TR

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Hurrah! Novice Admins

          Your demeaning attitude shows one thing, and it’s not pretty. Your arrogance of your knowledge is completely uncalled for as you know absolutely nothing about anyone here except what you perceive from these posts. Your conversational attitude is that of a child and REALLY looks bad in such a mixed forum of IT staff from all corners of the globe.

          The experience I have seen on TR covers everything from the new WinDOZE user to the seasoned M$ engineer, your ssumption is without qualification. Your post was simply an arrogant slam at anyone who had voiced an opinion on the subject that didn’t have the audacity or arrogance to list a plethora of BS certifications after his/her name.

          I know people who would probably walk circles around your abilities and certified knowledge that have never even seen an IT classroom.

          What an absurd, uneducated, immature and overall pathetic attempt at making yourself look and feel good.

          “Novell failed to offer products to compliment the product line” – GroupWise, PHP, MySQL, Apache, ZenWorks, XD2, Console One, GWAVA, Virtual Office…?

          Many of which are included in the box.

        • #2729164


          by terryt ·

          In reply to One of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on TR

          Why don’t you keep your absurd, uneducated, immature, and pathetic rants to yourself? All of the cutsie, anti-Microsoft (M$, WinDOZE) name-calling only reveals an irrational hate and overall lack of objectivity and maturity.

        • #2729162


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to One of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on TR

          It was a play on your post. They say if you san’t beat em join em so I figure one must respond to you with the same knee jerk. biased attitude you shared here.

          Perhaps you can just remember that yours s not always the best opinion and your not dealing with the newbies you propose your sre.

          If it is beneath you, the Internet is full of similar sites without you finding a need to belittle others knowledge in order to reinforce your own point. Try offering positive support for your own opinions instead of negative towards another opinion.

        • #2729436


          by greg.keenan ·

          In reply to Hurrah! Novice Admins

          You know what they say about people who flash BIG credentials….

        • #2729407


          by treborgt ·

          In reply to complex

          Lets face it folks, the future entails a world where there will be multitude of different NOS’s, platforms, db’s, etc. As was previously said, knowing more than one will be a big plus, not to mention – I think – fun. I come from an MS background, but Linux fascinates me. The one trend I see clearly is that compatibility and cross-platform support is becoming more and more the norm. It sure isnt worth arguing which is better, its a toolbox, some products are a better fit under certain criteria. Competition will spur some great improvements.

        • #2729298


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to complex

          They waste too much time in school and then propose to know everything about an industry.

          Or are you referring to overcompensation for the miniature manhood syndrome? 😉

        • #3222029

          Easier to administer?

          by therrington ·

          In reply to Hurrah! Novice Admins

          I’m a “novice admin (as was so disparagingly referred to) who has learned NOvell from scratch ON MY OWN from the docs. Am I comfortable? No, but I can mostly do what I need to do. I am still impressed by the security that says if I don’t allow it, you don’t get it.

          I recently began using M$ 2k server. From what I can see, it is no easier and perhaps somewhat more difficult to learn for a newbie. They redid things just to make sure you are forced to learn the M$ way, like it or not.

          Me, I’m moving my stuff to Linux. It will be a challenge. But to me, it’s worth it to be free of the M$ monopoply.

        • #2681154

          I Agree…

          by yanipen ·

          In reply to Knowing more than 1 product line

          I agree to the previous comments. Putting all the eggs in one basket is very risky, especially your eggs. I have been around long enough to see the changes. One thing comes after the other. Yeah, the tools that you have in your toolbox, you should know them by heart.

          If shifting to MS works for you, then go for it. But, if you want to shatter the stereotypes, it could mean a whole new thing. The point is, it is always okay to try something new. Especially if is better than the one we’ve gotten used to. Linux has been GROWING slowly but surely, it surely works for me.

          To top that, I live in a country where it is a MS fanatic. We few here, are already making our mark! You should evaluate everything first, what suites you best.

    • #2681202

      Novell Ximian aquisition

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Well as you are a dealer I assume you’ve attended the Novell Ximian rollout seminar. It shows the power of Linux incorporated in a Newtare environment. There is no relation to this and standard Linux, there’s is NO replation or even close proximity to anything MS offers. This is a benchmark in networking software and office ROI.

      Just look at red Carpet and the thousands of bundled features, I’d like to see MS even come close to the same ballpark as this but know they never will.

      If you HAVEN’T seen the Novell Ximian Linux for desktops seminar, contact Novell and get the tools at least. I sat with a few fellow netadmins and developer friends at the seminars and all of us watched with mouths open wide, trying not to drool too noticeably. Some of my ‘partners’ were also MCSE’s as well as MCNE’s like myself, the MCSE’s were shaking thier heads at the amount of onty they had wasted on MS certs when this is going to be thier gravy for years to come now. I have already helped deploy a Novell Linux network with a few associate consultants and the ROI over MS, the power of the software, the ability to handle simultaneous logins and file requests made MS look like a cheapo shareware OS.

      if you are simply looking at reviews, articles and the website, get ahold of Novell, this is the best thing that has ever happened to Novell and is something MS will be hard pressed to match even in the next 3 years.

      Overall, PHENOMINAL solutions.

      • #2684067

        who cares which one goes where?

        by dgenerous1 ·

        In reply to Novell Ximian aquisition

        as a tech that works with both ms, novel, linux, macos and sun. it realy does not matter which you choose to pursue. though linux training will come in handy. ms is on its way out and they know it(hence the battles with lindows)but the software will out-live any of us and speacialists will be required. Dos died over 10years ago but people are still needed to work within the system. the choice will be simple A: learn linux with its extreme learning curve and reap the benifits or B:
        go ms and fight with hundreds of other ms qualified techs that want the same job.

        • #2681045


          by junk ·

          In reply to who cares which one goes where?

          I absolutely agree with you. In Islamabad, their are only two well known netware guys, I am one of two, Once both of us are hired for a project by world bank based on netware, some where out side of islamabad, NDS Technologies a netware 5 user co. had to wait for one week, I had an experties in linux, mac & ms, I am often contacted for technical support for the above mentioned platforms, I don’t feel hasitant, to support them. some of my clients are ISPs, pure unix environment.

          I am proud that my 1st NOS is novell netware 3.11, from where I had developed my experties of NOSes, you should be multi dimentional, don’t stick to one platform.

          This is your experties, who will pay, not the novell dealership.


      • #2729645

        I agree, Best thing for Novell

        by dostberg ·

        In reply to Novell Ximian aquisition

        Novell was not doing well with only NetWare. They seemed to finally realize this and are attempting to make adjustments. I am learning this new offering now and I think that if it can deleiver on half of what it promises, Novell will succeed. Change is good and growth is needed to survive.

      • #2729505

        Novell including Open Source

        by stefan.davenport ·

        In reply to Novell Ximian aquisition

        I believe that the recent acquisition of Ximian and the new products that have been included in the NetWare 6.5 Operating System will be a huge benefit to NetWare but also Novell’s other products. This fills a big gap for Novell, developers. One of the main problems in recent times has been a lack of 3rd party software developers working on products for the NetWare platform. By positioning NetWare to be able to run almost any Open Source web applications and leveraging this with the identity management and security provided by eDirectory Novell have opened up their developer base considerably.

        The other big plus for Novell is that they are prepared to work across pretty much any platform and offer tools that can assist in minimising the additional administrative cost involved in managing multiple directory services and other systems.

        Lastly, the Ximian acquisition means that for the first time in Novell’s history they can actually provide products and services from the server all the way to the desktop. Assuming that the take up of Linux at the desktop continues this will also assist Novell.

    • #2681183

      And the problem is…

      by pgm554 ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I moved back to the Valley a few months ago and from what I can see, the Novell presence here in terms of seminars is no where near what it is in places like DC, Pittsburgh or Philly.

      Waltham,Mass. is the Novell center of the universe right now(and maybe the reason seminars are so easy to check out in the northeast) .

      Strange, that THE high tech center of the world would be so hostile (or rather ambivalent) to the innovator of one of the classic NOS’s of the past 20 years. Everything is situated in Irvine(on the west coast) and the Valley seems an afterthought.
      But then again Google uses M$ AD for its infrastructure and Eric Schmidt runs the place.
      So go figure.

      As for the future, in 3 to 5 years, Novell Linux might be a cash cow, but budgets are built on what is selling now, and my dilemma is not an issue of better technology(Novell has always had that) ,but the bottom line(is it profitable?) .

      This is one to ponder.

      • #3381076

        Actually NorthWest

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to And the problem is…

        I live in Port Hardy, the tip of Vancouver Island, and they are in Vancouver a couple of times a year. I have a friend that is running a Netware/Linux seminar nest wekk for his prospects and customers. He is showing them advantages of moving away from Exchange and utilizing full messaging and CRM capabilities of GroupWise on Linux.

        It’s up to you to create a market I suppose as Novell isn’t as aggressive as Microsoft.

        Then again, it’s the same thing in the audio world, Harman Kardon is very passive compared to JVC yet HK is desired by a more selective and aware audience. If you aren’t into the upsell routine, you just have to look harder, but they are there .

      • #2695893

        Long Live Novell

        by jaxjazzy ·

        In reply to And the problem is…

        I’ve been using Novell since 2.0 and it like any NOS has come a long way.
        I’m in the process of securing MC$E along with my Novell certs because I believe in versitility which begets knowledge and vice-a-versa.
        I do think Novell is easier to use and doesn’t have a target by hackers on it like M$.

        • #3383487

          And it’s only getting better

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Long Live Novell

          Novell Ximian has been tingly all over. Just the concept, when I heard it some time ago was a fantastic thought, to see what they have done with thier FIRST release is stunning.

          There is nothing on the market that even comes remotely close to the cost effective and secure solution they offer. No longer is livencing even a topic of discussion. MS will never equal it, but they will probably try to sway the way people look at a NOS instead.

        • #2684263

          Why has it lived this long?

          by thomas.reno ·

          In reply to Long Live Novell

          Go MS. It’s not perfect but I think it will be there longer than any other options we have at this point. The cost of keeping up with these technologies is quite high and getting to require bandwidth I just do not have anymore.

        • #2684230

          Re: Why has it lived this long?

          by felipe_alfaro ·

          In reply to Why has it lived this long?

          Making decisions on future predictions is risky
          business. Making decisions on ease of use is
          completely nonsense: servers don’t have to be
          easy to use, but must stand the test of time,
          have high levels of availability and
          realibility. It’s not a matter of popping a CD,
          run SETUP.EXE and click Next a couple of times.

          Going on with M$ means a lot of trouble:

          1. Faster upgrade cycles: means a lot of
          investment in software that doesn’t provide
          anything new, except being forced to upgrade at
          vendor’s desire (M$). Read Service Pack 2, read
          Windows XP, read Windows Server 2003.

          2. Continuos upgrades and fixes: Let’s get
          clear, we know M$ software is insecure by nature
          and it’s installed, used and administered by a
          lot of people without the know-how. You’ll need
          to be prepared to enter the daunting task of
          patching almost daily and being the target of
          works, viruses and hacerks almost continuously.
          ALso, you’ll need to deal with inexpertise users
          running a flawed system: Ey, my printer doesn’t
          work, or what the heck is this blue screen?

          3. No freedom to choose: once you choose M$, you
          will be forced to use certain kind of software.
          Software from third-parties will not function
          correctly, or it will obsoleted when M$ includes
          the same functionality into the core operating
          system (read Virtual PC, for example), forcing
          you to upgrade and retrain on using the “new”
          built-in features. For example, AntiVirus, disk

          4. M$ software is costly: licenses are extremely
          expensive, maintenance is almost a daily
          process, bugs are common, hotfixes fix one thing
          and break others, Service Packs must be
          extensively tested before deployment, DLL’s get
          overwritten when you install new software which
          causes other programs to stop working.

          5. M$ lacks robust automatic updates: Almost
          every Linux distribution out there has supported
          automated updates for a long time. Even more,
          updates have been applied.

          I could go on and on trying to convince you that
          Windows was, is and will always be an “Operating
          System” geared towards the home and consumer
          users, which has tried to include enterprise
          features, but has failed miserably. Windows was
          created to run Solitaire, write letters with
          Word and read e-mails. It was created to make
          computers accessible to the average Joe user,
          not to make enterprise-grade computing better
          (we already have UNIX-like OS’s).

          Trying to use Windows to run enterprise-like
          databases or something with requires high
          availability is likely to fail. At least, we
          failed and switched to Linux.

        • #2684199

          And Novell is different?

          by sedge ·

          In reply to Re: Why has it lived this long?

          Since when is every 2-3 year for an OS upgrade too often? Stop and think for a minute: Windows 98 – Windows 2000 (2 years). Windows 2000 – Windows XP (2 years). Server 2000 – Server 2003 (3 years). This isn’t too often.

          And what plays well with Novell? I agree that it’s a good product, but who cares? It takes way too much tweaking to get it to play nicely with other software that isn’t a Novell product or partner product. Everyone builds for Microsoft. Novell is an aftertought, if even considered at all.

          Yes, a lot of it is in the marketing, but Novell just doesn’t seem to care enough to market its products. For example, I hosted what was supposed to be a major presentation to compare Microsoft and Novell products with their own staff doing the comparison. After jumping at the opportunity, Novell didn’t even bother showing up. No phone call, no cancellation, they simply didn’t show up. That made for a pretty one-sided comparison. And several months later, I’ve still heard nothing from them. How can anyone select a product when the manufacturer doesn’t care enough to try to sell it?

          Another point to consider is why Microsoft is attacked so often. They’re big. They’re attacked because they are big. Who cares about attacking the minor players in the market? That won’t get you a name or recognition. Even the media doesn’t care. Novell does get hacked and does have security problems. Does it make the news? No…they won’t even formally acknowledge the problems. They just issue patches. Microsoft is at least honest and acknowledges they have a problem.

          We’ve been conditioned over the past few decades to consider big business as bad. So, right from the start, we consider Microsoft bad even without considering their products. We all need to take a step back and realize that Microsoft has created a lot of jobs worldwide and spurred our economy and those of other nations, too. Personally, many of us wouldn’t even be working in this field without Microsoft. Indirectly, too, they have positively affected everything in the technology field. They made it easy for everyone to have a personal computer…creating the need for a lot of small consulting firms that otherwise wouldn’t exist. They spurred manufacturing, both from direct production of their own branded products and from support of a variety of industries to make their life easier. I could go on and on about the positive aspects of Microsoft, a point that few people will consider.

          What has Novell done?

          Microsoft is the 800 pound gorilla on the block. But they;re also a very friendly gorilla if you just take the time to think the issues though logically. And I don’t work for Microsoft.

        • #2684111

          What are you talking about?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to And Novell is different?

          Your post although a common opinion is so far off base it isn’t funny.

          To begin with ” It takes way too much tweaking to get it to play nicely with other software that isn’t a Novell product or partner product.”

          The partner products work seamlessly in a Novell ebvironment, MS works with MS end of story. As for third party products for Novell, you obviously haven’t spent too much time looking at the NEW Novell since it aquired Ximian’s Linux, there are 2000 PRE-packed software titles for the server and desktop with Novell Ximian. Microsoft offer IE and Exchange if you’re lucky (note, BOTH MS products.)

          MIcrosoft is the 900 pound gorilla on the block that forces his bananas down your throat each day and when you slip on the peel, just hands you a new banana. They spread themselves too thin and don’t completely build any ONE product properly.

          Novell started in business networks, have developed through Business networks and ONLY build Business networks, no joysticks, no games, no cheesy chat software, no BS networking OS etc.
          They build NOS’s and VERY good ones at that which Microsoft is miles away from being even close to matching. Microsoft has PAID for your interest in them, they have force fed thier substandard products to the market for too many years and many people don’t realize that they haven’t built a GOOD products since…..?

          You shoudl stay current with a manufacturers product before voicing such a negative opinion, which is OBVIOUSLY baised in the first place.
          ” Novell didn’t even bother showing up. No phone call, no cancellation, they simply didn’t show up.”

          No bad feelings here, and obviously an open minded assessment, NOT.

        • #2684094

          He’s talking about the FACTS!

          by thearchitect ·

          In reply to What are you talking about?

          “The partner products work seamlessly in a Novell ebvironment” is so far from the truth. ZENworks has been a thorn in our side, to the point we have to keep rebuiding windows workstations left and right because even administrators get locked out of the machine. Their portal can’t handle more then 10 concurrent users with the configuration Novell MADE us use (not too open it seems) which was “supposed” to handle 100 users…
          This has nothing to do with “an open minded assessment”, just the facts.

          How about what Gartner has to say…”NetWare’s declining market share calls into question whether it is capable of gaining back its past momentum and even if it has long-term viability. Market share is not likely to increase anytime soon in the face of Linux’s competition and stagnant original equipment manufacturer (OEM) enthusiasm.”

        • #2684012

          Never seen your Zenworks problems

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to What are you talking about?

          I’ve been an MCNE for a few years and have never had a problem with deployment via ZEN works in environments up to about 65 users. Have never rebuilt Windoze DUE to Zenworks login failures.

          As for what Gartner says, who is he? An opinion, like you or me, just a voice and an opinion. I bet Bill Gates would also say something similar.

          If Zenworks and Novell networking doesn’t work for you for some bizarre reason, it is not because th product sucks because it works for so many other people just fine.

          now with Microsnot, EVERYONE has the constant patch, repatch, update nightmare and everyone will agree it sucks big time. BUT. It is in our face so we accept it and learn to work with it??

          Why bother? Why support a company that produces thousands of titles with MAYBE a handful that work right? That’s not a good track record.

          Do you honestly, in the bottom of your heart think Novell is hoing anywhere? They were just in town saying how they have gained market share, not lost it. They are actively marketing to the financial areas of Vancouver with Novell’s Linux for desktops. They are running in MOST of the schools in B.C. as a collective agreement.

          From where I stand, Novell is definitely not goping anywhere and has succeeded here just fine, this is also 4 hours from Microsoft HQ.

        • #2683985

          I think you have it backwards

          by arleenw ·

          In reply to What are you talking about?

          My experience has been that M$ designs their products not to work with anyone elses – I’ve even found references to that fact in their knowledge base when trying to solve a compatibility problem.

          The beauty of Netware is that it is secure right out of the box. YOu have complete control over your installation – what services get installed and everything. And it is compatible with most OS’s – Unix, Linux, MAC, Windows. They go out of their way to make sure your OS can connect to their server.

          Beyond that it is the PERFECT solution for small businesses that need a robust but cannot afford a tech on staff. An experienced consultatant can install and configure a Netware server in an afternoon and leave it. It just runs. Users never need bother with it. At my job, everybody is intimidated by it anyway because they don’t see the point and click environment, so they don’t touch it. Except for the occaisional service packs or patches, I rarely have to troubleshoot a problem with it. When I access it it is to make changes I WANT make or check logs.

          I have no doubts the LInux version of Netware will be just as robust, and if they play their cards right will blow M$ right out of the water.

        • #2683979

          Arleen, it does !

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to What are you talking about?

          Go to Novell’s site and check out XD2 it will BLOW your mind, and save you company a few thousand at least.

          You’re right though, the problem isn’t getting Novell to work in a Windows environment, it is getting Windows to work in a Novell environment. I guranatee that ANY problems will be resolved by patching and fixing Windows, not the Netware server, unless a Netware patch to accomodate a windows flavour. Why can’t MS patch it themselves instead of relying on Novell to do this all the time!

        • #3382099

          I’ll take Novell – It’s “set it – forget it”

          by yule ·

          In reply to And Novell is different?

          I have old hardware running old Novell 4.11 – – -It just runs – and runs and runs – – get it.

          Now Microsoft – – Well – – If I could have all my stuff on Novell, I could sleep at night knowing it would still be running in the morning.

          Nuff said there

          As for the original question. Learn the Linux. Microsoft will have to live with penguins in the network regardless of how much the whine and give SCO money to fight with. My 14 year old is living in a Linux only world, and he does his own management on old hardware. Yes there is a learning curve, but if you have the time – you can do it.

        • #2729660

          And Novell is different?

          by 1coordinator ·

          In reply to And Novell is different?

          I could not agree more!

          It was Microsoft who gave computers and Software the acceptants it has today.
          Im in this businnes for almost 20 years.

          Sorry for the type flawes but my englisch is a bit rusty

          CNA – MCSE – CLP (Novell – MIcrosoft – Notes)

        • #2729636

          Where was Microsoft when…

          by rickb8 ·

          In reply to And Novell is different?

          Novell introduced ‘NetWare’? At a time when Microsoft was not shipping a GUI, Novell was shipping personal network servers. NetWare, NetWare68 (!), NetWare86, NetWare 2.x, all came out before I knew Microsoft had a server product.

          Novell even tackled the problem of small hard drives. Remember the DCB?

          Many other companies came and went in the server business… LanTastic, 3Com, even Banyan, where StreetTalk was the only directory service anywhere for a long time. Even Novell followed them.

          Claiming that Microsoft has given computers and software the acceptance it has today points out the method they used: Make the systems prefer each other, ignore or thwart compatibility with existing competitors, and seed the development community with tools. And give developers a consistent environment from server to user. Only Apple has done as well, and well they have a very small market share. Probably due to mistakes similar to Novell’s.

          Besides, I’m unaware of a recent NetWare security flaw. I thin you can count all of them on one hand. And maybe an extra thumb…


        • #2729476

          What has Novell done, you ask.

          by heywoody_99 ·

          In reply to And Novell is different?

          Well first of all it has us given a stable, secure platform for mission critical files. Novell has given us an enterprise level directory, NDS/eDirectory, which Microsoft has tried, and failed, to emulate.
          Every Netware shop I have worked in, almost all critical, must have, never be corrupted, cannot be lost files have been trusted to Netware servers.
          Netware is not perfect, but it has come a long way, and it doesn’t require insessant patching. If your box is running, and you are not experiencing problems, no need to patch.
          Windows is a clickers paradise: Click here, click there, if you get it wrong, well then you point a finger at Microsoft, and shrug it off as a Windows problem, reinstall the box, and keep clicking until you get the desired (wished for) result.
          Wih Netware you actually had to know what you were doing, and if you screwed up, the other admins would know very quickly who screwed what up.

        • #2684257

          Still The best OS

          by mike.tinney ·

          In reply to Long Live Novell

          Netware still beats the competion hands down….and has very little attention from Viruses and Hackers…

          My guess is that it will be around for many years to come…

          Heres hoping anyway….

        • #2684109

          Hear hear

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Still The best OS

          Agreed. Ximian/Linux IS going to keep Novell around for a long time. nobody has built a better mousetrap, they don’t build games or consoles, just stable NOS software. Perople that have used Novell use it for a specific reason, whether security, ease of administration or just overall reliability, it DOESN’T GO DOWN!!

          These companies will always have a taste for the finer things and will laugh at the thought of Microsoft, or run screaming.

        • #2684041

          Hey Oz

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Hear hear

          Although you seam to be very confident in your lines, what about the client side? As far as I know – and I don’t say I know much lol – the best networks are Novel + Windows 2000 clients (Go figure that!). What is good a NOS if there are no clients to meet the required expectations? And why are the best? Because as far as I start knowing, W2K is not that spread as many people thought – in Canada I mean. And there are soooo many people that don’t even know about what W2K can bring on. For myself, the best are W2K and W2K clients (not XP – which is for home users)
          And about patches – you always talk about patching MS, how about patching the Linux boxes orelse you are “cuit”? We’ll end spending 3/4 of time just to patch the NOS – lol! Don’t come with a statement like “you don’t need to patch”, because it’s not true.
          Lets face it, linux is in he’s early development, and has much to improve. So, whenever a new release will be on, you’ll have to switch to that, because is more secure. So, start patching mr. admin! And if I remember, RedHat has it’s latest releases at an interval of few month, I don’t know about Ximian, but sure is something the same.
          That’s my point. Linux it’s good, but has a lot to improve, Novel has to do something quick so that he ends his period of “shadow”. Microsoft is doing exactly what he wants – and W2K is a pretty good product!

        • #2684007

          Bit of both

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Hey Oz

          I generally run W2K Pro desktops, when possible ( I LOATHE XP in all flavours for personal reasons).

          Netware is a Network Operating system, NOVELL doesn’t make games, joysticks, game consoles etc. Just NOS’s and they work VERY well ad other have a paradigm to live up to because of them.

          When I say Linuxm, I am talking via Novell Linux for Desktops, so technically Novell HAS entered the desktop market now with a custome Linux flavour designed to compliment Novell’s NOS.

          This desktop alternative also comes with thousands of open source inclusions, and patching is done effortlessly and in a batchlike fashion, similar to rolling out with Zenworks before.

          I have seen this first hand, I have also helped design one of the first TRUE Novell/Linux netoworks in BC. It took a weekedn to configure and as second string supoprt, I haven’t had a call yet. NOTE: They have ONE onsite CNE.

          Now, this same scenario with a RedHat or Windows rollout would need several ONSITE techs, many support calls and second string support team would be onsite for weeks.

          I think Novell’s on the right path with this one.

        • #2681133

          There is a future

          by masinick ·

          In reply to Still The best OS

          Consider that the installed base of Netware is pretty significant. Though perhaps its finest days have past, in terms of adding features and selling in large numbers, that doesn’t mean that Netware is through. I was thinking that Netware was in decline nearly ten years ago, yet it’s lived on this long. There’s nothing wrong with it at all, but I do expect to see other products get more development attention. Expect to see Netware-like features, perhaps even the Netware protocol stack widely used in other places. I’ve already seen it on some Linux systems, expect to see more of that.

          I believe that Novell is branching out, not to completely kill Netware, but to develop new product lines with the hope of rejuvinating a company that’s had good, but fairly stagnant, products for many years. I give them a lot of credit for their recent work with Ximian and most recently with SuSE. I expect them not to take over those works entirely, but to focus them and integrate them into the kinds of things that Novell does well, and that’s interconnectivity and interoperability. Ximian’s Exchange Server converter is one example of a commercial product that permits Email and information management interconnectivity.

          Expect to see more tools and applications that further improve interoperability and connectivity between systems. Afterall, that’s what Novell knows how to do well.

      • #2684268

        Reply To: Novell Linux and future of Netware

        by haydies ·

        In reply to And the problem is…

        Heres just one little question. What OS is running the Internet? A clue? Its not windows….

        Weather Novel Linux is good or bad, there is one hell of a lot of “*nix” machines out there, and a they are more or less the same.

        Sure, windows is easy…but then thats why every man and his dog can “set it up” and “build” a network with it. Well, as long as you don’t want it to be secure…..

        Thing is, windows is the main Corparate OS at the moment, but then Total Cost of Ownership comes in, and a lot of companies are starting to turn away from it.

        Personaly, I am betting on Linux. More and more things are going “online” and it seems to me in the long run Linux is going to win out. Windows just costs to much, and is to much of a problem in it self….

        • #2684052


          by voldar ·

          In reply to Reply To: Novell Linux and future of Netware

          you are maybe right, but as far as I know, linux has a looooot to improve so that you’ll have a whole linux network! And I mean clients also. Servers in linux, lets be fair, many of them are only web-mail servers, firewalls and routers. Nothing more! File servers that work good with other systems – no way … it’s a lot and hard work to do to accomplish that! Printservers? Same thing here, it’s a looong way to go.
          You all say about security – let me remember an article I read some time ago, from the Linux environment – you have to patch all the time with the latest updates (and you are complaining about Microsoft) or else, the system become unsecure. Go figure when it comes about the “patch” world.
          I agree linux is a good thing, and he’s best for what he is now … but it’s a looong way to become the number one.

        • #2729590

          Quite wrong

          by ninejaguar ·

          In reply to YES

          “Servers in linux, lets be fair, many of them are only web-mail servers, firewalls and routers. Nothing more!”

          You’re quite off on that. First, when you say “only web-mail servers” you’re dismissing a wide range of products. For instance, TechRepublic which you’re reading and typing replies too isn’t just a website. It’s an application that runs on Linux + Apache. When you go buy a book from Amazon, you’re interacting with a very sophisticated application that runs on Linux. When you Google your way through the Web, guess what you’re using? When governments over the world are beginning to mandate transitions to Open Source Operating Systems, guess which one they’re talking about? When Universal Studios needs to whip up a quick internal web-based application to interface with their legacy mainframe data, they turn to Java on Linux.

          Speaking of Java… now that it’s about to be Open Sourced by Sun with IBM’s pushing, plan to see the Java + Linux killer combination everywhere. There is some overhead and time required to learning something as powerful as *nix-like Operating Systems. Now’s the time to start if you don’t already know how to operate Linux, and get a jump on the rest of the M$ crowd.

          = 9J =

        • #2729509


          by voldar ·

          In reply to Quite wrong

          And it’s very well known that it could be run also in a Windows 2000 – Apache server. The key ward is Apache = “An open source >> Web server << originally formed by taking all the "patches" (fixes) to the NCSA Web server and making a new server out of it" (definition I found on the net). I was not that wrong I think when I said about WEB SERVERS. And yes, it's a good thing to know linux, but this is not because it is better or the best of. Be rezonable and agree with its limits and limitations. There is no program/OS/NOS which is the best, but is allways a program/OS/NOS that best suits your needs. Point of story!

        • #2729448

          RE: YES

          by john jakus ·

          In reply to YES

          OK you say that Linux needs all this. Needs improvements to the File Services and Print Services. Well read my link below. NetWare is know for it’s excellence in File and Print Services. Guess what. NetWare services are now available for Linux. NetWare 7 is due out soon and it will run all NetWare services on top of the Linux Kernel. So there you have an excellent combination of product to form a rock solid solution.

          Novell is bringing some good technologies to the Linux World.


        • #2684019

          Show me proof

          by tomsal ·

          In reply to Reply To: Novell Linux and future of Netware

          Sorry, but I’m tired of self made facts people post all over the ‘net… I hear that Microsoft is being dropped by many companies in place of Linux. Yes, some companies are…how many companies are in the world? What I mean to say is this according to recent articles in ComputerWorld, InformationWeek and spot ads for JetBlue, Intel and IBM…I’m see that a great number of *BIG* companies are sticking with Microsoft products, of those I just named they are all upgraded (or already upgraded to) Windows 2003 server.

          Furthermore in recent issue of CIO magazine I read about another rather large company come straight and say that Linux wouldn’t work with their company as it has lots of maturing to do before it hits the end user, so they are sticking with Microsoft for now.

          It just hey I like Linux, but calm down its NOT READY FOR THE CORPORATE DESKTOP YET!!

        • #2684001


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Show me proof

          You mentioned IBM has just upgraded to server 2003. You failed to mention that they are also one of the first MAJOR OEM providers to incorporate Linux and also Novell in house and in thier pre-configured PC’s.

          These companies have thousands of servers and each is used for a different purpose or security level. Do you really think they are USING MS throughout? No.

          Npvell just closed one of thier largest contracts ever with HP/COMPAQ, with the OEM’s moving to prebuilt Linux boxes does this not show you that they are also looking for a Windows alternative? With Novell releasing the most phenominal Linux flavour I’ve seen, it just reassures me there are other things to consider than Windoze, ESPECIALLY in a business environment where security, stability and uptime are a major consideration, whereas at home, WHO cares, Windoze is enough.

        • #2683992

          IBM …

          by voldar ·

          In reply to IBM

          yes … but remember what type of servers are those! Most of them are web-mail servers and routers!

        • #2683980

          Are they?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to IBM …

          I thought IBM was still in development? As is HP/Compaq.

          Perhaps they have BEGAUN deploying it in routers and web-mail servers, but they are looking to target the desktop HOME user maret and offer a stable/affordable desktop for business use.

        • #2683978

          yes Oz

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Are they?

          But it’s soooo long way to go. I am not saying that this is not a good step, but still, it’s so much to work.
          And now, returning to Novel-Linux, I don’t argue when I don’t know what the system looks like and what/how works, but .. the lack of “advertising” is not something to pass over. Who thinks that “everybody is supposed to know” about a new product and do not advertise it, is verrrrry .. you chose the word for me 🙂

        • #2683964

          Alright Vlad

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Are they?

          Just because it’s you, and I like you.

          You say, “Who thinks that “everybody is supposed to know” about a new product and do not advertise it, is verrrrry .. you chose the word for me 🙂 ”

          I’ll say very NORMAL. Why should a vendor presell it’s product and then pay someone else residuals for selling it?

          Did you see your VCR on TV before you bought it or did a salesman talk you into it? (okay make that DVD player ;-))

          Did you choose your car based on a TV commercial or did the dealer convince you it was the right car for you?

          Do you buy ANYTHING site unseen? Probably not.

          The job of a salesman, is to asses and fill a cusomer’s need. As Novell offers something diferent for everyone, it is not thier responsibility to sell th product but just to build and support it, which in my experience they do just fine.

          If I relied on Novell for sales, I’d go back to selling or fixing cars fulltime.

          It is my job as someone who wants to earn money sellng and supporting a product to ensure I am prepared and have the toold to close the deal, not Novell’s.

          I was sold Novell by a very capable salesman, I didn’t like him as a person but thought he was a salesman I respected and would hire myself, I was sold by his energy and product knowledge, NOT by Novell.

          I jyust don’t get it, several people’s main complaint is that Novell isn’t advertising and selling thie rproduct, it’s insane. Only in IT would you read such tripe, sorry but this is a touchy subject with me. Lazy techs who feel the products should be presold, shouldn’t ALL things in life be that easy? Yem but they aren’t so get over it everyone and learn to sell or hire salesmen!

          I say all this with all due respect for you and hope you don’t see this as a shot at yourself, it is more of a generalization, the offenders know exactly who they are and will probably contest it as they read it.

        • #2680933

          Normal Novell

          by dwdino ·

          In reply to Are they?

          Come up with a decent product. Refine it. Bury it.

          What actually killed Novell, was Novell. Microsoft sold itself. Unix was entrenched. Therefore Novell found its niche fans, and was content. Novell needs some Gates influence if it is to become a major player again.

          I am hoping Novell doesn’t drive its great aquisitions into the ground, as is its habbit.

        • #2680877

          What actually Killed Novell????

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Are they?

          What do you mean what actually killed Novell?

          Novell has shown a positive cash surplus for some time now, they are going strong as ever and building new customer relationships all the time. Novell hasn’t been KILLED nor have they gone anywhere.

          It’s the same thing (sorry for this) as 80’s heavy metal bands. Because they aren’t playing shows in North America they are considered GNOE. Most of those bands have had full careers and have been recording as always, because they are not in YOUR media focus, they are considered dead or gone.

          Twisted Sister just headlined a gig in Sweden, they are considfered GONE too as they aren’t in the media spotlight in North America anymore.

          Just remember, YOU may have foprgotten about NOvell, they may not have the same in you face advertising tht MS has, but they are FAR from going anywhere. They have recently released thier most robust and full featured NOS yet, AND have already been deploying Linux Kernel networks all over North America. BUT, you haven’t heard or seen too much of them lately so they are gone or as you say “killed”.

          Way to close a door and cut yourself off from opportunity!

        • #2729447

          RE: IBM

          by john jakus ·

          In reply to IBM

          Any if you have been watching the news you would have seen that IBM has a gameplan of replacing all MS software with Linux and Open Source by the end of 2005. I think a lot of large companies are going to consider this or follow suite shortly there after.


        • #2729297

          Very true

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to RE: IBM

          But if you read the opinions here, these companies a will soon be bankrupt as they are focusing on a technology that nobody wants. We are all happy with Microsnot products and they work beter than any on he market. I mean, if the secretary can figure it out, it MUST be the best! (not to downplay the ability of any secretaries out there).

        • #2729294


          by voldar ·

          In reply to Very true

          Oz, as for myself, you know that I am not against anything. Just I am asking myself questions. I don’t know what experience you have in a Civil Engineering/Architects environment, with a use of strict professional programs, not only MSOffice or IE or a mail (which is the most used in the most of the firms).
          Linux, Netware, Novel have not been, or are not yet so “large mass expanded” to the user level so that they can look interesting for the software developers. Or I may be wrong, but … looking from only the perspective of NOS and not also the CLIENTS and their needs (when you migrate all to another product) is quite a silly thing. And, believe me, no user is ready to learn new things once he is very proficient with a program that he used long time. When I was network administrator and did also so much desktop support (Office, AutoCAD, Corel, MicroPISTE, ArchiCAD, etc), from my experience I can tell that: if you want to change something, change also the person!! It’s cheeper!
          But this is hard to do, specialists are not everywhere, and when you have 10 projects to make in 1 month, you think twice before changing/switching to another environment. This is why I said and still say that switching to something just because is the best, looks to me hilarious. I, for myself, I will check on what is really the best for my entire environment (NOS and CLIENTS/SOFTWARE used), and take the best decision. Even if it may cost me lot of bucks. From now in ten years maybe things wil change, but the market, for me, for my needs, don’t let me a choise, and I say that for my needs MS is the best for now.
          And yes, NOS is important, but client side is also a very important thing, and when you say MS will be gone, you are so wrong, that I am almost asking myself why you say that. The development will not stop in 2004 to MS and continue only to Novel, Linux etc. This is not a natural option. It is going to be a long fight, and if you want my opinion, I believe that Linux in 10 years, if it will grow, will be no more FREE, and the professional programs will cost at the same level as they cost for the MS environment. I agree with you, there will be always free programs, but when you want professionalism, free programs is nothing. MySQL, is good for a mini, hardly a medium database, but it will never have the power of SQL or name you any other GOOD database server. And my examples may continue.

          So, my answer for the master of this thread will be: learn MS if you want, learn Linux also, learn as much as you can, sometimes, knowing about other programs/software may make the difference between a good and a “best” administrator.

        • #2729284

          I think you took a joke as a statement.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Very true

          “and when you say MS will be gone, you are so wrong”

          I didn’t say that did I ? If I did, I never intended to, I have never even thought MS will be out of business, how could they? Too many people swear by MS for it to go bankrupt.

          If you are referring to my last post here, I was implying that everyone seems to think Novell is going bye bye. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. As I jokingly said, “…if you read the opinions here, these companies a will soon be bankrupt as they are focusing on a technology that nobody wants.” I was referring to all the people who are claiming Novell is on its way out. Obviously they haven’t paid much attention to Novel who is actually showing more strength and market growth than when they were one of the only options for a NOS.

          I don’t really care myself, I am just stating that all these people who figure Novell and Linux will soon die and leave Microsoft as the only choice are completely dilusional. How does a multi billion dollar corporation who has a niche, high end market suddenly disappear after releasing thier most valued offerings yet?

          You’re right, Novell, MS, Linux are not going anywhere. It will just be an issue of whether or not people have enough Microsoft patience to keep using such unfinished/unrefined products. If MS spent mroe time engineering and testing before hastily looking for new revenue and releasing it’s products full of holes, it would have a much better reputation. Windows as an OS is nice to use, unforyunately, it just isn’t stable enough and needs constant attention. These bugs get fixed but by the time they have a well patched OS available, they release something new. I’d just ike to see them realize that Billy Gates has enough cash for now, don’t be in such a ruch to get a new flavor on the market in order to match what others are doing, just release something that is solid right out of the box.

        • #2680892

          Can you say “OS X”?

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Show me proof

          I knew that you could…

          Actually, nothing other than Windows will ever be ready for the corporate desktop. What M$ has done (and quite successfully, so far) is to calculate to the third or fourth decimal place exactly how much change they can force down corporate users’ throats without causing them to change OSs.

          The one thing business users hate more than M$ is spending money, and it costs more money to train your end users to use a completely new operating system than it does to bring them up to speed on the new M$ excretion…

        • #2680862

          nothing other than Windows will ever be ready for the corporate desktop

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Can you say “OS X”?

          We will never have need for more computing power than a 386 offers.

          We will never be able to have a secure credit card system in place and if so, nobody will use it.

          From your BOLD statement that you will eat in time,all I can say is never say never.

          I know several Medium/large coporations that are using Novell’s Suse Linux for desktops or DX2 as opposed to having ANY MS products onsite whatsoever.

          A company I remote network admin for has not a single shred of MS anywhere in house. They will NOT use any MS product for any reason and have banned MS from thier organization all together.

          Never say never, or at least not in such a closed and blantant way. You are already wrong, I wonder what will happen when this becomes wider and wider spread.

        • #2729584

          Yeah ok…

          by dwdino ·

          In reply to nothing other than Windows will ever be ready for the corporate desktop

          I just finished downloading, installing, and playing with XD2.

          It is a much improved interface than most other X environments.

          Still, nothing from the Linux world comes anywhere near the refinement and ease of the Microsoft desktop. While I like and use Linux in the server arena; for desktops, HELL NO!

        • #2729583

          Savvy users may find the Linux change harder than newbies.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Yeah ok…

          I installed an XD2 based network for a major accounting company.

          Whle the users had good keyboarding skills they only knew Windows basics from using at home.

          The learning curve was easy for them, they absolutely LOVE the stability and thoer accounting apps run like a top over the VPN.

          VERY happt clients that didn’t have much computer experience other than the home user basics, email , surfing etc. These people didn’t manilpulate Windoze system files and tweaks they just used email web surfing etc. an EASY adjustment unless you are a savvy user that relies on the Windows system structure.

          Which brings me to another thought. Is it maybe the OPPOSITE as people think? Savvy Windows users will be inclined to use Windoze as they know where everything is hidden/tweaked etc.

          A basic or ‘non-savvy’ Windoze user wouldn’t be SO tied to the OS and would adjust easier to a new OS?

        • #2729600

          TechRepublic/CNet uses Linux + Apache

          by ninejaguar ·

          In reply to Show me proof

          “Show me proof”

          If you’re reading this or typing a reply, it’s right in front of you.

          = 9J =

        • #2729581


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to TechRepublic/CNet uses Linux + Apache

          as a webdesigner myself, it is common knowledge that practically everybody ‘big’ is using Linux , Apache, PHP and MySQL. Not too many companies run a reliable portal or web app server in a Windows enviro.

          Funny enough, Novell’s Netware 6.5 comes with PHP, Apache and SQL IN THE BOX!

          This is besides Novell Linux!

        • #2729507

          And …

          by voldar ·

          In reply to agreed

          Oz, this confirms what I said before. Linux is used because for now is free, let’s not pretend we don’t know the reason, and yes, LINUX is GOOD in WEB environment. What was before linux on the web? This is a question I’d like to know the answer.
          (UNIX? NOVEL?)

        • #2729496


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to And …

          There have been many platforms used before Linux.
          What was ‘then’ is irrelevant though, nothing has been stable enough to offer a viable alternative or to even offer a viable first for web apps.

          The idea here is to discuss the future of these applications. Let’s just say Microsoft has the worst track record in history, there are other morestable alternatives. One of the most stable codes I’ve ever seen run on the Internet is Python, a condensed C++ code that actually works without 45 hours of debugging by a 10 man team.

          Netware has a fantastic future and is lined up to continue bringing astounding solutions to the web, the server and the desktop. It doesn’t take much of a discussion to understand that MS has NEVER been stable and due to the constant need to sell new code, never wil be a stable NOS.

          Sure, some people find it fun to work with and a challenge, but who wants fun or a challenge in a NOS? I’d rather firse and forget, add an update once or twice a year at MAX and never need to run maintenance or reboot. This is why I only work with companies that have the budget for Netware, the loyalty to thier IT dept (I always sign a contract, so some goofball MCSE doesn’t go and start the MS push) and the knowledge of WHY they want Netware and why they benefit from it and GroupWise, Virtual desktop (sweeeeeeet!) etc.

          Thise that wanna play games, go buy a joystick and MS Server 2003.

        • #2729260

          There is no proof!!!

          by pauldrumm ·

          In reply to Show me proof

          I have walked into several companies where they had a shareware Linux OS (is there any other kind?). I asked them, “Who is your support?” and they had none. Most corporate entites have support contracts with SCO, Sun, Microsoft. Who has that hot fix for your system that you can call? They moved to another OS that had support for what they are running. Most networks use Windows for the desktop. Makes sense to use Windows for the whole shebang(!). You just do not get the support with Linux as you do with HP-UX, Sun, or SCO. SCO was pretty good. Novell ha(s)d decent support if you can get a real Novell engineer which is not likely any more. I have been installing Droopwise and Novell OS for many years. I had an issue with my Droopwise migration from 5.5 to 6.5 with the clients that I had never seen before. I had to call a third party recommended on Novell’s website. I sent them the errors, the diags, ran all the tests they asked and even had them come in through Terminal services (it’s a MS product, kind’a like telnet with pictures) and then they asked me for a ghost of the clients hard drive (a legal firm). I had my end with this and told them I could not do this for legal reasons and wanted our money back. THEY SAID THEY DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS AND DO NOT GUARUNTEE ANTYHING. This is one thing that su-ked about Novell going from in house support to that third party ,Sento Corporation.
          In fact the policy is, and I qoute

          Q: What if the support engineer doesn’t resolve my problem? Am I still charged for the support?
          A: Novell considers access to an engineer an incident. If you spent time working with a support engineer, it will be considered an incident. If you never communicated with a support engineer, your incident will be canceled.

          ===Note that it never says anything about fixing you up. It just says that if you do not contact the engineer the charges are cancelled. What a bunch of hooey!!
          When I call for support it is because there is a major issue and I need a 3rd level engineer.
          Sun, HP and Microsoft do not charge you if they can not fix it.

          Bottom line. Who ya gonna call? Might as will be the ghostbusters! They did not give refunds either.

          Use what makes the most business sense for your company to support that 24/7 enterprise app that brings you in millions/year in revenue. Make sure you can fall back on a solid support contract. Most companies could not do that with Linux on a “reliable” basis due to support and also due to a shortage of decent Unix admins.

          Can not wait for the replies on this one.

          almost forgot

          Paul Drumm

      • #2722839


        by driv101 ·

        In reply to And the problem is…

        none of it is afordable
        why not just get the stuff we have up and going and
        not worrie about new,

    • #2684273

      If you need to make some cash

      by zgr ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Well, the problem is quite simple:
      Novell has technology excellence, while MS has marketing excellence.

      I am in the Linux and Microsoft for more than 15 years now (yes, yes, it is sooooo old). I just checked: my first Linux was an Yggdrasil distribution dated 1994.

      All in all, non-proprietary Linux (Debian for example – no holly wars, please) is a pretty good thing when it comes to installing firewalls, ftp servers, mail servers, even MS-integrated file servers. On the desktops, MS is here to stay, at least along the next five to ten years. Our customers are driving this, not us. Technical excellence is pretty good, but not sufficient.

      Novell is well-known to change for trying new products and markets with hype and letting them covered with dust a short time after. Do you remember the famous UNIX buy ? Unixware ? I do…

      • #2684198

        …then learn M$

        by sadamsvalley ·

        In reply to If you need to make some cash

        Look, Novell is superior technolgy, coupled with Linux and all that is available for it is a great tool. But the reality is that companies that don’t change to the industry demand (like it or not) just die. There is plenty of Microsoft out there, and plenty of work. Move into it, keep that cash a comin’ and then burn some midnight oil learning Linux. It is MUCH harder to migrate to Linux than to Microsoft. The OS is getting easier to operate and install than three years ago but there are still a lot of little glitches and gotchas that M$ has seemed to work out.

        • #2684121

          Re: …then learn M$

          by thearchitect ·

          In reply to …then learn M$

          Right on the money…It truly is time to get out of the 90’s and realize what year it is.
          As security becomes more and more important to corporations I see more and more articles from independent organizations speaking on the new features of the windows platform and how they are dealing with security. Where IIS 4.x or 5.x was wide open, 6.x is coming out locked down by default, as well as Server 2003.
          They may have failed us in the past, but they are coming to plate ready to play, and that’s coming from a UNIX head!

        • #2729490

          Re: …then learn M$ – Sidenote

          by sadamsvalley ·

          In reply to Re: …then learn M$

          …and I’m a guy who’s blood has always run red and my breastplate always sported the letter “N”. I am a CNE/CNI for GroupWise and NetWare 4 and 5.

        • #2729293

          And …

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Re: …then learn M$ – Sidenote

          Don’t you think you are a bit “refractar” to anything else? Just a question of a novice. My blood is also red, but I don’t see in that an advantage against the others :P.

          Just teasing you, but we are supposed to be open minded, not to stuck on a single idea, and to think in black and white. There is a lot of “grey” between those stages.

    • #2684272

      Facing the end of Netware

      by adeshayes ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      What do you mean by “Facing the END of Netware”

      Netware assured us that it will continu to exist.
      In my opnion its not Netware that is going to end, its the lack of support of third party’s.
      A lot of third party do not supprt the Netware platform anymore. Why don’t they. Netware is the most secure platform at this time.
      Maybe its easier for programmers to write the software for Microsoft Platforms in stead of a Netware platform. Or is it an money concern. Programmers can earn more money by writing their software for Microsoft Platform. So theu choose to write application the easiest way and earn more money with it, in stead of writing relaiable software for a reliable and secure operating system.

      Netware is going to stay due to the existence of a few very good products. For instance eDirectory, which is the only reliable Cross platform Directory Services. Microsofts Directory Service is never going to be a Cross-platform product.

      • #2684269

        AD is LDAP based

        by zgr ·

        In reply to Facing the end of Netware


        As AD (bad or good, it exists) is LDAP based it is by design cross-platform aware.
        And I am using it from Linux boxen. Although it takes some tricky config, it works…

        • #2684190

          Cross-platform clarification

          by dpbrant ·

          In reply to AD is LDAP based

          I think you miss the point of cross-platform. While yes, you can ACCESS AD via LDAP, you cannot RUN it on anything but Windows.

        • #2684178

          I moved from Msft to Linux/BSD

          by preston_terrell ·

          In reply to AD is LDAP based

          Linux has the fame but BSD has really helped my business. No software licenses to worry about, which means more of the tech budget can be spent on you and not Microsoft.

          Yes there is a bit of a learning period, but it comes quick. Believe it or not, you can do so much more out of the box with BSD than with Msft. A lot less reboots as well.

          Don’t snub it so quick, although if your new to it, try BSD from the get go. I used Redhat for a long time, their new license really messed me up. I don’t think BSD will ever go that route. Plus BSD is much cleaner, in regards to adding applications.

        • #2681146

          Not LDAP 3 compliant

          by makins ·

          In reply to AD is LDAP based

          M$ uses LDAP but their version is not LDAP 3 compliant. Also, AD is not a true x500 directory and is still based in domains. What is more, MS uses a unique version of DNS. Also, how many other systems can run Active Directory? Oh yea, NONE! Novell’s eDirectory will run on Linux, Novell, Microsoft and Unix. The truth is M$ makes a needed application server and Novell’s eDirectory makes the better and more secure cross platform directory. To be good in this industry you need to know how to work with both systems but everyone knows who makes the better and more secure product.

        • #3366948


          by md.harrison ·

          In reply to Not LDAP 3 compliant

          THE DIRECTORY – designed from the ground up with no Domain constraints. LDAP used with quality LDAP authentcation e.g. iChain. DirXML (identity Manager) pulls together identity management and single sign on capabilties. Moving down the open source route will probably provide APPLICATIONS. It’ll take a few months (9-18 months) but in my view Novell will gain new clients and be taken extremely seriously, quite right too. The only real issue has been applications. There are issues with the Netware OS regarding 64 bit support (Doesn’t exist) and clustering/load balancing more than 8 processors but this will be rectified on the Linux platform. Novell Cluster Services is ARGUABLY the BEST as it stands.

          Mark MCNE

      • #2684256

        Microsoft Support is more

        by bichelmo ·

        In reply to Facing the end of Netware

        The reason a lot of third parties don’t want to support Novell is because it is a far better Operating system. It rarely breaks. If you are in the business of fixing things then you want more business with something that breaks frequently hence we have Microsoft.

        • #2729257

          oh give me a break!!

          by pauldrumm ·

          In reply to Microsoft Support is more

          I have seen so many Novell abends because a novice admin tried to install Novell, or actually got it installed, it is pathetic. Not to mention all the bugs inherent to the NOS itself that cause it to abend under load. Oh, check the Novell KB for “ABEND”. You will find as many hits for it on Novell’s site as you do for “BSOD” on Microsoft’s.

          I bet you have one server and 10 users.

          Sorry for the sarcasm, nothing personal.

        • #2729217

          NW abends

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to oh give me a break!!

          Actuallu in my experience, I have only ever seen one NW server with an abend issue. It was due to third party FaxServe software that wasn’t compaitlble with the most common brooktrout fax board.

          Other than that, I have 5 NW servers under my wing at two companies right now. One with 150+ users and the other with 700+ srpead throughout four Canadian braches.

          Since the original install until today, I have only rebooted one company’s web application server when the ISP was down. Almost three years.

          The other is only year old but hasn’t abended once.

          All it takesis a little time and patience when designing hardware andinstalling software and your good to go. You can add NW patches, updates etc. on the fly without rebooting servers.

          Bottom line, the company’s network is always up and the users are happy. Which, at the end of the day, is really all that matters in ANY network OS.

          Hardware and software reliability are important but if you can hot-swap drives and keep the server up to date without taking it down, that’s the ultimate goal. Novell’s products have always provided this for me and therefore my customers have been happy with thier NOS choice. it doesn’t matter how much time and effort YOU spend with the server as that’s your job, I just prefer to do it during the daytime and forget the after hours and weekend reboots and rollouts.

      • #2684234

        The end of Netware????

        by mobilec1 ·

        In reply to Facing the end of Netware

        Speaking as a part time consultant and Novell Reseller. I can understand where you are coming from. I had had similar thoughts myself about the future of Novell vs Microsoft. As I seen through Novell’s aquisition of SUSE linux and their committment to Edir, I have a a renewed sense of purpose about Novell and their products. I also like the idea of selling a product that doesnt come with a BIG Red target on its package. It would be a wise idea to gain experience and knowledge in all facets of OS’s. whether it be Novell, Linux or Microsoft so that you can make an informed choice.

        • #2684195

          SUSE tied to SAG

          by sedge ·

          In reply to The end of Netware????

          Very few people review history in making decision s for the future. Another thought that not many people are aware of or will probably even consider is that SUSE Linus is tied very closely to Software AG in Germany. About three years ago, Novell sent one of its top execs to Software AG. This send up a lot of red flags to me. Even if I was anti-Microsoft, I would be very wary of any company with a close relationship to Software AG. Another product that is very stable, but doesn’t play well with anything else and a company that isn’t concerned enough about its product to keep it up to date.

          Seems like Novell keeps on partnering with companies of like mind.

        • #2684105

          Ximian aquistition

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to SUSE tied to SAG

          Yes you are right, but Novell ended up Aquiring Ximian networks as a linux partner.

      • #2684107

        Read the same thing in 94

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Facing the end of Netware

        I read the exact same thing in 1994. “Is Novell making it’s exit as a player in the NOS market?”

        Of course they didn’t go anywhere. NOvell is superior and gets better each year. Ms just fixes thier NOS each year and people think its better. Better than what? A NOS that DIDN’t WORK in the first place!?!?!? I sure hope so.

        Novell engineers make a LOT more money than MCSE’s, the product requires less time to patch and keep running, Novell just doesn’t go down.

        I’ll stay where the money is, NOvell for me, the MSCE market is inundated and jobs are paying less each week, funny enough though, it requires twice as much work as a netadmin. Work twice as hard for less money, yup, just like most companies where those that do the least work make the big bucks.

      • #2729444

        RE: Facing the end of NetWare

        by john jakus ·

        In reply to Facing the end of Netware

        The reason they didn’t code for NetWare was because NetWare NLMs where difficult to code. Windows was easier to code for. Novell just never got the development community plugged in.

        Well now think about what is happen. The development community is divided by Windows and non-windows developers. Non windows includes open source open standards and Java technologies. Windows programs only work in Windows environments. The non-windows developers can develope for all platforms. Now look with NetWare services sitting on Linux Kernel, NetWare now has a entire new development community over night. They don’t have to build the development community that they desperitly needed.

        This bring great value back to NetWare.


    • #2684270

      Run, don’t walk to BrainShare

      by david_heath ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Novell’s BrainShare is on in less than 2 weeks. I’d strongly suggest you get there if you what to know where Novell’s taking Netware and Linux. 10,000 geeks can’t be wrong!!

      • #2684194


        by sedge ·

        In reply to Run, don’t walk to BrainShare

        Out of how many million?

        • #2683963

          Conformity doesn’t count

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to !0,000

          Just bacuse everyone jumps off a bridge would you?

          No MOM!

    • #2684262

      Understand Your Clients

      by i.hilliard ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      The first question as always, when making a business decision, has to be “What best fits the needs of my clients?” It is only by understanding and supplying that which your clients need that you will continue to prosper.

      The point here has to be though, ?Why haven’t your clients already moved across to Windows?? The answer may well be that your clients don’t want to use Windows. In my experience, those companies that have not moved to Windows don’t believe that the Microsoft offerings are reliable enough or secure enough for their business. If that is the reason why your customers are your customers, then you would be doing yourself and your customers a disservice by moving to Windows.

      Linux is more complex than Windows, but so is NetWare. The complexity is a consequence of the flexibility. As I see it, Linux will be a better fit to those customers who are looking for the reliability, security and flexibility associated with NetWare. I believe that this is the reason that Novell is now going down the Linux path.

      It may well be worth while getting more information about Linux before deciding whether Linux is suitable for your customers. But always remember, if you do the best for your customers, they will look after you.

      Ask your customers whether they really believe that a move to Windows would be in their best interest. When discussing the point, make sure to use valid information and studies. The use of some of the now discredited TCO studies, which Microsoft has had produced, may reflect badly on you and your company when the truth eventually becomes clear to your customers.


    • #2684251

      Novell Linux and future of Netware

      by tom_sawyer70 ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      “becoming clearer, that Netware is about to become the bastard child of Novell.”

      The Netware kernel may be on the way out, but not the Netware services…they’re just going to run on the Linux kernel. Just like DS or GW running on say, a Windows machine, the security and function is there, it’s just not booting off of the Netware kernel.

      As for Windows vs. Linux, there are plenty of signs today that Microsoft is losing it’s grip. While Netware has always been secure and stable, Linux has those and the two things behind it that Netware never had…marketing and advertising.

      • #2684231

        NetWare Legitimacy

        by tek_slave ·

        In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

        I think people who know both platforms understand that NetWare still carries validity. But Novell also knows that it must port to the Linux kernel for long-term growth and success. Hell, they were profitable last quarter following the SuSE acquistion. To the red folk out there, does it really matter if NetWare falters iff the new SuSE/Novell product-set eclipses it in quality and performance?

    • #2684229

      Out with M$

      by ryanrollings ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      We are a MS, Novell, Linux, Solarus, AS/400, running SAP, file and print, web servers, and on and on. M$ is the most expensive and irritating OS we have. We are slowly allowing it to die. In it’s place are our Netware Servers, Linux and Solaris with eDirectory running on top. DirXML prividing identity management that is like magic having the disparate operating systems. We will be using Novell Linux and SUSE on the desktop soon but our Netware boxes will stay in place and run and run just like they always do. There are literally years between reboots on out Netware servers. It’s usually a hardware issue that reminds us that the servers are still there. Tell your customers about Novell. SELL it to them. You are letting M$ sell their half-baked product for you and your customers are getting second best NOS at a higher cost.

      • #3381786

        Reality Check

        by marmstrong ·

        In reply to Out with M$

        For all of Microsofts flaws, in the end it comes back to one simple thing. Ease of use. I’ve trained people in many different environments, and by far Windows is the simplest. The likelyhood is 95% of the people on this forum are accessing it using a Microsoft OS. And as for stability, we have 7 servers, and most go 6 months before reboots. It all boils down to compatibility. If it’s compatible, chances are, your problems will be few, and far between.

        • #2729570

          6 months between reboots

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Reality Check

          I manage several Netware servers for several companies vie remote networking.

          Lat week I installed a new Antivirus system on one, I installed an excellent SPAM solution on another (has caught 98% of SPAM , no false positives) and haven’t rebooted either of them.

          This is NEW software and software upgrades, NO REBOOT.

          If I had to reboot a Netware server every 6 months, I’d be onsite trying to find out what the hell was wrong with it. I nkow in a MS world 6 months between boots is a reason to bake a cake but in a Netware world, it’s reason to rebuild your server.

          as for user friendly, I am starting to see the exact opposite.

          First you assume that everyone uses a MS box to access TR, I think you’d be surprised at how many don’t or how FEW do.

          As for users friendly, I think it’s the other way around. A new user isn’t as strapped to the MS GUI as a savvy user may be. A proficient MS user knows how to tweak and edit the registry and system files, this all changes with linux and therefore the savvy user is now a new user and doesn’t like the change. A new MS user, email and surfing, isn’t as OS dpendant and can be easily taight XD2 (Linux for desktops)which REALLY doesn’t take any adjustment as it acts almost the same as windows. I have a feeling you are al picturing a blank screen with a prompt on it, not the pretty GUI of XD2, which by the way comes prepacked with a MS Office compatible suite, graphics programs, AV, etc. IN THE BOX!

          If I saw a compelling reason to recommend MS, I would do it, I sell and service networks, why would I cut off a segment of my own income?!?
          When I see nothing but headaches and complaints from customers, I smile knowing that I didn’t recommend thier nightmare and some MCSE did instead, yet I will profit from switching them to something more stable and keeping the user happy with the same tools on a reliable system.

        • #2729501

          As far

          by voldar ·

          In reply to 6 months between reboots

          as the users don’t use specific programs like AutoCAD, ArchiCAD, Plateia and I can give you a lot of other names of programs that simply don’t run under Linux, and never will be.
          As an Architect Firm, Civil Engineering Design firm, which is the benefit of the Linux? NONE! It’s as good as a good hot steam water on wooden leg.
          And I am sure, that if it was the case for you to give a solution in such a case like I specified, the only answer was M$ also. This is the story, and this it ends, for now.
          As long as someone needs only text writting, mail and IE, Linux is okay. For the rest … ouch … still so much work to do!

        • #2729495

          Close but not quite

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to As far

          One of the included benefits ion XD2 (Linux for desktops) is that it comes with an auto cad suite (free addin) that offers MAC AND PC AutoCad compatibility. I used to do a lot of AutoCad as a machinist and also when studying architectural draughting, so I understand your point. But any diagram you can send a XD2 user, he ca open, view, manipulate and return with full compatibility in tact. Not QUITE as robust as AUTOCAD’s full featured system but compatible. not bad for a first go around, eh?

        • #2729491


          by voldar ·

          In reply to Close but not quite

          don’t get me wrong .. I know there are some signs here, there, but at a professional level, there is a lot of work to do, sometimes maybe will never be done.
          What I don’t really understand is why AutoDESK don’t want to have a Linux ready program also. And then, I remember when working in Lyon, with an Unix program named CESAR_LCPC (finit elements in structure modeling), and it was a demand from Grece to have it in the Windows platform. At that time, LCPC did this version, but it was only for Grece, and never again. Why? Because it is so hard to move complex programs toward another platform. Sometimes is better to start from scratch.

        • #2729474

          I see what you mean

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oz,

          I never really thought of the monetary costs of cross platform design. You would think Linux would be easy enouh but I am sure the problems would be crossing back to the Windows platform from Linux, Printing, rendering, finished document formats etc.

          On the other hand, the COST of Autodesk software would repel a Linux user as they are generally the open source type.

          Is there a term for these open sourcers yet?

          We used terms tree huggers, flower power etc. to describe our ‘Green Peace’ save the world types of people. Usually extreme lefties politically.

          But what about all these guys/gals that are into P2P file sharing, open source computing and free/community software development?

          Is there a term for these freedom fighters, yet or we need to have another naming contest?

        • #2729375

          Stick foot in mouth . . . .

          by relicksc ·

          In reply to As far

          If you were as aware of the origins of your CAD software and the OS that it originally ran on . . . you’d know that your statement is extremely wrong. Also, check out the CAD/CAM systems at the major design studios and see what NOS and OS is in use.

          Then you’ll be able to make an informed comment.

          Novell is here to stay . . . M$ had better get ready to take a back seat . . . Those of you who are scared and are now complaining and crying need to go learn Linux and Netware soon !

          M$ is go for home and small business use. Unix, Linux and Novell are for the rest.

        • #2729339

          I am soooo

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Stick foot in mouth . . . .

          tired about people that don’t know when/where to read. I said AutoCAD, not CAD, go on their site and inform better what are the requirements for installing the program. I don’t say that maybe other CAD programs do not work (UNIX especially), but I am talking about specific software used in Architecture-Civil Engineering, not used in Mechanical.
          Also, I have asked the re-seller I bought from for my company in Europe the licenses about the intention for creating also a Linux compatible version. For now, he said – there is no intention.
          My point is that there is NO best product in the world, but there is ONLY the best product that suits your needs.
          NOS – there is and there will be always UNIX/Novel/Linux/Windows, for OSs the same.
          I don’t really understand you guys when you blame one product against another product. Every product has its own purposes and clients.

          About the question in the topic, I would say – be multi-operating systems guy, it will be the best thing to do. Know and learn how AD works, how linux-novel works, so that when time comes to give a proper advice/solution you’ll be very aware about what you are talking about!
          That’s it! And, please take your feet, they really need a bath!

        • #2729468

          Only six months between reboots?

          by heywoody_99 ·

          In reply to 6 months between reboots

          I worked a very large pharmaceutical company. All Windows boxes were scheduled for a reboot every month. We didn’t even consider a reboot schedule for the 4.x and 5.x machines.
          One Netware server had a CPU go bad, when we went to shut down for replacement, the Compaq tech looked at the number of days up time, which was around 1100 or so, he said that there must be something wrong with the system clock….which there wasn’t!

        • #2729329


          by voldar ·

          In reply to Only six months between reboots?

          the time a server is up it’s such a low credit to me, I even don’t care about this. Will you all here say that I am lying when I tell you that my W2K server was up and running for more than 2 years? And that my linux server I had to reboot it every two weeks because was having a problem with the motherboard!
          My point is the following: be master in all products and then talk. At that time I will give you all my credit. Till then, let me doubt about you.
          And in the end, all is about how a server is setup from the beginning, and if it suits the needs he was build for. Till then, I am sick of hearing ?This NOS/OS is SHIT, that is the BEST?.
          P.S. I may not set up properly the Linux box (but I did, and even with a guy that knows linux as I know my name). It was a DEBIAN version, and it was a real headache, and never stopped until we had to change the motherboard ? which functioned very well under Windows. That?s my experience with Linux, I don?t say this is usual case, but ? there is no PERFECT software/OS/NOS. Keep that in mind!

        • #2729286

          Sure Vlad

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Uff….

          I will tell you first hand, MS NOS is garbage. Novell is the best there is.

          Microsoft sucks as a company, as an operating system, as a NOS. Thier engineers are alaughing stock of wannabe coders. Security in Microsoft is an oxymoron, there’s no such thing.

          If you had problems with Linux, it’s bacsue you are an idiot and whoever helped you didn’t know his A** from a hole in the ground! Or maybe it’s just because you live in Montreal and like most Canadians you are a dummy.

          I know that’s what you wanted to hear so I said it!

          Actually, I’m just joking to get you going, honestly. 😉

          Have a great weekend mate, keep yer chin up, pour a cold beer and watch the hockey game, it sure beats all this NOS BS , talk to ya soon. 🙂

        • #2729262


          by voldar ·

          In reply to Sure Vlad

          I’ll drink for that! Someday maybe you’ll join me (french or not french speaking:))

          And yes … you are so right .. I’ll never understand why XP appeared (with all the problems – hardware needs, networking gaps..) when W2K is the best product I used from MS. And I will not change it to another product 3 years at least from now. And, now, talking from experience, XP in a network = headaches. XP is good and fun for homecomputers, with all media enhancements, but please … not in network environment.

        • #2728080


          by j.neufert ·

          In reply to 6 months between reboots

          Also erst mal – wenn ich alle 96 Server, die ich momentan unter meinen Fittichen habe, alle 6 Monate rebooten sollte, w?rde ich wahnsinnig werden.
          2. F?r alle, die hier mit ihrem MCSE-Schei? hausieren gehen – eine Grundbedingung, von mir (gegen ziemlich gutes Geld, wie ich finde) angestellt zu werden, ist, keine von diesen verbl?denden Schulungen hinter sich zu haben – und bitte auch kein IT-Studium einer deutschen Universit?t (mann braucht dann n?mlich mindestens 2 Jahre, bis man den ganzen Quatsch wieder aus den K?pfen rausgepr?gelt hat). Oder anders gesagt – mir ist v?llig wurscht, was einer f?r Diplome hat – mich interessiert, was derjenige im Kopf hat.

          UND DRITTENS – Meine Kunden werden vor eine einfache Wahl gestellt – m?chtet Ihr eine Klicki-Bunti-Welt mit vielen Funktionen, die Ihr weder braucht noch nutzt ODER m?chtet Ihr ein funktionierendes, manchmal auch spartanisches, aber immer SICHERES System, mit dem mann produktiv arbeiten kann?

          Ob Ihr es glaubt oder nicht – 92 Prozent der Leute, f?r die ich arbeite, entscheiden sich f?r die zweite Variante – f?r die restlichen 8 Prozent arbeite ich nicht – meine Zeit ist mir dazu zu schade.

          Ich werde f?r?s Denken bezahlt – meine Kunden k?nnen von mir daf?r erwarten, das ich Sie in Ihrem Sinne am besten berate.
          Da in der heutigen Zeit aber Sicherheit f?r mich an erster Stelle steht, habe ich da nicht viel Auswahl – M$ geh?rt einfach nicht dazu. Punktum.

          PS: Zur?ck zum eigentlichen Thema: Ich denke, dass Novell mit seiner Strategie durchaus richtig liegt und sich in seiner Ausrichtung konsequent weiterentwickelt.
          Von einem Sterben sehe ich nichts.

          mfg Janek

        • #2728021

          Sehr gut gesprochen

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to WAHNSINN!!!

          Sehr gut gesprochen. Ich sehe ihren punkt.

          Dank zu Online-?bersetzern, ist das.


      • #2729166

        M$ markets circles around Novell

        by tanjnt ·

        In reply to Out with M$

        Remember when Novell had the superior product, but M$ kept gaining market share? Well, it’s probably still happening today.

        NT wasn’t a better NOS, but it was easier to learn, and install, and administer (until it crashed or got hacked). It was also priced better, and more cleverly marketed.

        Novell was king of the NOS hill, and arrogant. They watched their market share dwindle while doing (not) clever things like paying too much for WordPerfect.

        Now they are fighting an uphill battle against an entrenched and cash rich M$. Has their management learned enough to win that battle?

        I’d like to think so, because I am fond of their products, but I am also skeptical. If they were doing their job right, the original message that started this thread might not have been written.

        This guy is an existing reseller worried about being able to make a living with Novell products. In that environment, it’s gonna be tough for Novell to win new converts.

    • #2684224

      Ask your Customer, Business Contacts

      by gorto ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      If you are not interested in relocating you would be well advised to find out what services are selling and what your client’s plan to do when Novell in its present form, is no longer supported. Be ready to adjust to the customers need. There are still a lot of loyal Novell users out there. In my area M$ has a foothold but has been loosing ground to Linux and Solaris.
      I now service all three.

    • #2684219

      Linux makes more dollars and sense

      by rupen ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      The market place is already far too overcrowded with Microsoft consultants. Linux is catching on fast. The are some very big players investing heavily in Linux–IBM, HP, Novell. Also consider that it that vendors with Linux expertise will likely make be able to charge more for consultancy.

    • #2684217

      Look long range

      by midzonetec ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      A lot of folks are looking to Linux based platforms for better security and less hassle and cost licensing. Novell has picked up a lot of good press with the Linux community. If they continue with the commitment to quality and security, the open source community will help drive them forward. They have a name for stability, running the Linux kernel will make it possible to use a greater number of tools. The combination of the Novell name and the Linux buzz should help propel the company forard. As the new products start becoming more visible in the real world the word will get out. If you jump ship now you may miss the real boat of the future.

      • #2684192

        Won’t be cheaper in the long term

        by sedge ·

        In reply to Look long range

        Linux is cheaper to purchase now, but it won’t be if it really becomes a major player. Market forces will put it right up there with the big dogs. Just look at UNIX…after the Novell fiasco with that product. Then people can start to complain about its cost and look to the next product offering a lower least until it catches on.

        • #2729642

          Long Term TCO

          by gorto ·

          In reply to Won’t be cheaper in the long term

          I administer a blended environment with Novell, Microsoft, Linux and Sun Solaris. By far the Unix machines are the most expensive to support with Microsoft second and at the other end of the $cale Linux and Novell. The only expense for Novell was the initial purchase 4 years ago and a couple of failed drives. The Linux machines have been running two years without a problem and just require scheduled maintenance. All patches and application upgrades for Linux go on via apt-get and I can’t say enough about how great this works. We will probably not continue with the MS Solution due to upgrade costs to operating system, client access licenses and hardware. I think the Linux/Novell union is a good thing. The simplicity and logic of Linux and the rock solid file and print services of Novell. I really think that this is a win, win.

        • #2729638

          Linux will stay cheap

          by midzonetec ·

          In reply to Won’t be cheaper in the long term

          Unix was developed as the “software” and “IP” concepts were being defined. The players were less numerous. Linux is controlled by the community. it will be a lot more difficult for a company to justify price gouging when you can just pull it down for free and get people to administer it in house. Also the number of computer literate people has increased tenfold from when the Unix’s were developed. It is not the arcane art it once was. As more people become familiar with Linux the TCO will continue to drop.

    • #2684201

      Why Choose?

      by bmuys ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      It sounds to me like you trying to choose one over the other. Why not embrace both? As far as training, why not explore distance learning courses, Web training, Web seminars, etc. Your physical presence is not always required for a training course.
      Novell has a history and has dedicated clients. Microsoft has a history and has dedicated clients. Linux doesn’t have a history, but it will! Knowing all of these products is the key to the future.

    • #2684185

      You have already choosen ….

      by michaeltsen ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      The fact that you are asking the question is another dilema of mine too. I want to make money but I don’t really fall into the money maker category ie. Enterpreneur like Bill and Linus. So I just want to make ‘more’ money piggy backing on them.

      Its apparent that you have already choosen Microsoft but just has slight concern on the shift. For easy money, sure go with the M.

      Then again, the fact of the market and trend is that big market, many suppliers; small market, less suppliers. So it doesn’t really matter which market you are in, if you are really good, you will make it through.

      Don’t be surprise to get a bunch of calls and great deals inviting you back to ‘Netware’ a couple of years later … 😉

    • #2684184


      by schnetman ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      “I get more calls for Exchange and Windows admin than I do for Novell these days.”

      I think this says it all. I work two days a week maintaining a Novell school network and that is all I need. Probably less than 1% of my work relates to netware. My colleagues in M$ schools work five days a week and complain they never have enough time. And in many cases there are two of them.

      If your livelihood necessitates haveing lots of problems to solve, then yes, the Microsoft road is the only one to follow. Incidentally, I have (within the last fortnight) started adding additional Linux based storage to my network. Piece of cake.

      • #2684153

        Exactaly the problem – What do you do?

        by another butthead ·


        What do you do sell a product that has bugs so you can provide the service to them in the future?

        Or do you sell them a superior product that werves their needs and more and requires less baby-sitting?

        When your customers find out that you have been selling them something for mostly your benifit, aren’t they going to bolt? Wouldn’t you?

        Novell has always had the best designed software. Linux is close. With Novell’s purchase of Xiamin and Suse, they have posistioned them selves to be at the tip of the spear in innovation.

        M$ is still installed almost everywhere so you will have a customer base to feed your family, but it would be irresponsible for you to ignore Linux.

    • #2684179

      Novell is choosing the winning path, you should too

      by hal5 ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      The writing is on the wall for the demise of Microsoft and possibly for commercial software. What Novell is doing is choosing the obvious path to future survival. You can choose to put all your efforts into Microsoft but before you know it you will be useful like a Banyan Vines expert would be today. The whole world is going open source and companies like Apple, Novell and IBM know that they can not stop it or fight it so they leverage it to success. Microsoft is going to fight it and lose because they can’t stop it, ever.

      You would be best served to learn what is going on and consider if your clients can be served by a FreeBSD, Linux or new Netware 7 server.

      I have a personal experience with a Novell to FreeBSD migration to share. We had a client running a Netware 4.1 server with an Act database with 50,000+ records and growing. They experienced random slowdowns and generally slow response from Act no matter what we did. The client was hesitant to upgrade to Microsoft Small Business Server due to cost concerns. We were sick and tired of the problems and I knew that Samba running on an open source platform like FreeBSD will outperform a Windows server so we loaned them a test FreeBSD server running Samba. The first radical change we saw was the indexing would now take only 15 minutes where before it took an hour and a half. In the almost 1 year of using this solution they have had no complaints of poor performance. They really don’t understand what we did or that it did not involve Microsoft, Novell or any other “legitimate” vendor. They only know and understand that now they can get their work done and it only cost them $0 for software and about 8 hours of our time.

    • #2684169

      Netware is NOT going away!

      by rgrein ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I get this all the time living in the heart of microsoftland (I can
      walk to the main campus from home), but I’ll repeat it one more
      time: Netware is NOT going away!!! Sure, the pundits have
      predicted it’s immenent demise, but when have they NOT read
      last rites for our favorite NOS?

      Fact is NetWare 7 is slated for release in about 18 months, give
      or take ALONG with the fully compatible product for Linux. Use
      one, use the other, Novell doesn’t care. This gives Novell a solid
      application server, an in with the Linux gearheads (which, BTW is
      a complimentary term). and something to distract Microsoft. The
      story from Novell sources has varied slightly due to different
      perspectives, but the main points are consistent – Linux is an
      addition, not a replacement, they’ll let long-term market forces
      determine if or when to halt Netware development, and there’s a
      multi-year development plan in place right now.

      What does this mean for you? Admittedly Novell sales staff has
      been concentrating on other things, but support is still there.
      Training oportunities are tougher, but between web seminars,
      Brainshare and the partner resources you should have plenty of
      opportunities to get your hands on future Netware materials as
      well as Suse training. In fact, if you are indeed a Novell partner
      you’ve been told recently about all this, as well as given
      information about upcoming Linux training. If you missed it get
      in touch with Novell TODAY and get your contact information

      Now, as to which way to go – of course we’ll have Windows to
      kick around for some time, and it will continue to be a decent
      revenue stream. However, that market is largely saturated,
      whereas Linux is growing rapidly – at the expense of Windows
      marketshare. Netware (installed base) and Mac (installed and
      new machines) have stayed largely flat. My money, time and
      effort is in learning linux – well, learning more than I know right

    • #2684168

      Always The Rebel?

      by elamess ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Forgive my fiendish chuckle my friends as I go over the topic of this conversation over and over in my mind. I just have to laugh. When was anything “The Cadillac” of anything else? A long time ago. Vindale mobile homes were The Cadillac of mobile homes and so on. Netware was The Cadillac of network software. Sigh, so long ago. Elvis was the King by the way, around that same time.

      After years and years of pleading to come to your senses and use Microsoft, you remained rebellious, you thumbed your noses and swore pledges of eternal allegiance to the red and white boxes. (I think they were red and white….it’s been more than 10 years since I’ve seen the boxes). Even now, when it should be very clear to you, you are even considering Linux?

      I say to you now…..go there. Jump from Netware to Linux. This way your “do it my way” sort can remain the fodder of humor for a while to come. The fact that you have waited this long indicates to me that you may be happier as mayflowers at the big dance anyways.

      Meanwhile, Those of us wearing the beanie hat with the propellor on top, with “Bill” on one blade and “Gates” on the other will continue to be on the cutting edge of innovation forever. Or at least as long as Microsoft remains the, uh….lets’s see….hmmmm…..Lamborghini of network software(?).

      Just curious….how many of you thinking of switching prefer an Apple computer on your desk?
      I hear they are The Cadillac of proprietary systems…..yes?

      • #2683991

        Well the wait is over

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Always The Rebel?

        Marketing and market share has NOTHING to do with product success.

        “as long as Microsoft remains the, uh….lets’s see….hmmmm…..Lamborghini of network software”

        Well that’s over so what now. MS, if they have EVER been considered the Lamborghini of software, make that NETWORK software and even more hideous attempt in which I don’t think they’ve ever even been a proper player doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than market share and advertising. The products don’t outperform ANYONE else’s on the market, they never have and most certainly never will. I believe (If I remember correctly) Novell benchmarking simultaneous logins, file updates, etc. showed that Netware 4.11 outperformed WIN Server 2003, and that is an ancient NOS from Novell. I can crash ANY MS server in less than 10 minutes, Novell, you practically have to use the down and restart to get the server to go down, it’s the easiest job I have EVER had, and that includes some pretty cushy desk jobs.

        Ms is mster of nothing but has thier hands into everything. This doesn’t make them better, just bigger, like WalMart, HONDA, Panasonic etc. Big not far from best. It is an illusion of grandeur that makes them APPEAR to be the best. Unless you are in Texas of course where bigger certainly is considered better.

    • #2684157

      Think again.

      by psbruciu ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      If you want to deal daily, and sometimes even several times a day, with problems, then choose Windows.

    • #2684156

      Novell bugs…

      by hagstrom ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Seems like everybody thinks Novell is much better than M$.
      Well.. we have both a Novell network and a M$ network, and most of our network-client problems are related to the Novell servers, slow connections, drive mapping problems, Groupwise problems, ZENworks problems to just name a few.

      Yes, every desktop is a windows computer, but they have a lot less problems with windows servers than Novell servers.

      • #2684116

        Re: Novell bugs…

        by thearchitect ·

        In reply to Novell bugs…

        Preach on brother Hagstrom!!!

        When I read this post I started asking around the group to see who was Hagstrom because this is our environment to the “T”!

        ZENworks has been the biggest headache in the world. We have had to rebuild dozens of machines from an image because suddenly ZEN randomly decides to give NO ONE administrative rights on the machine.

        The biggest pain is when asking Novell the only response, if any, we get from them is “…install a patch…install a patch…”

        We tried implementing their portal EXACTLY as they told us to, and it just doesn’t work. They tell us company so-and-so has it running so you should have no problem…problem is when we go and ask company so-and-so they comment that they had the same problems and tossed out the portal months ago.

        In the past 6 months our Novell support has been ineffective, non-responsive, and lies.

        Time for some visine around here…SO WE CAN GET THE RED OUT!!!

        • #2684099

          WOW bad builds?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Re: Novell bugs…

          I dunno but I’ve set up MANY MANY Zenworks systems, soe for mixed environments and some for the red N only, NEVER had a single problem with either installation, configuration, abends ANYTHING. I know people with purely MS houses that will use Zen for deployment.

          I assume you’re an MCNE and not a MCSE, but if you are MS certed, THAT’s the problem. Not a slam on yourself but just a reality check.

        • #2684016

          …or rather bad Novell!

          by hagstrom ·

          In reply to WOW bad builds?

          The admins for the Novell network are Novell certified.. plus so are the Novell tech support (I hope!) that has been out here uncountable many times, trying to “fix” the problems. Well.. so far nothing has helped. One little detail get fixed, 10 more show up.. !

          To not talk about how interesting it is to setup a WinXP Pro workstation, that works very fast and fine on the network, until you install the Novell client, and then it becomes like molasses!
          Then of a sudden all the network communication takes forever.. !

          Maaan I wish we had a pure M$ network.. !

        • #2683983

          Pure MS

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to …or rather bad Novell!

          Well you’d stay busy at least and remain employed.

          Again you are introducing your personal experience with one site as a way of defining Novell’s products.

          I again have NEVER had these horrible problems you mention. I even have clients who use PDA versions of the Netware and Groupwise client with no problem.

          I run PBX Telephony servers with Netware servers side by side, no problem. Have users logging in from all kinds of devices using the XD2 destops (second to none right now) in house.

          Things like i-Folder, i-Manager (browser based NOS support across the entire organization), NetWare virtual office stand unrivaled and it will be a LOOONG time before MS catches up, they will just deny the technology as opposed to meeting or exceeding it. These things save me HOURS and the customer THOUSANDS (A key when trying to close a contract).

          Granted MANY business owners have thier heads up thier ass when it comes to IT decisions, whether or not they really know or if a firnd told them, they will be somewhat adamant about what is best for them, yet they rarely know and will opt for the MS NOS, hey they’re the bigest, they MUST be best.

          As for the client SLOWING down anything, this tells me that your issues lay much deeper than most. Novell’s clients have been the most resouceful I’ve ever installed.

          Liek I said, you have a bad install, a bad server/hardware/support or something, but your incidnet is the first of this nature I’ve heard of. QWhat you are complainging about is what makes most people EVEN MCSE’s say that is Novells strength. So you bit a sour peanut and all the others taste bad now. This happens with Microsnot too except on a daily basis by thousands of pissed off companies.

          I would also be interested in seeing what version of Netware you are rolling out, it sounds quite old due to your client problems.

        • #2683965

          …probs with NetWare 6.5

          by hagstrom ·

          In reply to Pure MS

          No, I don’t think we have any old stuff, we have Netware 6.5.

          As far as a pure M$ network goes, I’m taking care of our DMZ, which I have setup as a pure Win 2003 AD domain network. I very rarely have any problems, and when I do, I know what to do, to fix it.
          Compared to the Novell problems, that neither the inhouse admins can handle nor the outside Novell experts. We just have to live with the problems…

          Well, yeah, it’s personal experience, and becuase we have had it forever and it never gets any better, I tend to think Novell is bad, and M$ rules.

          And my personal experience wiht M$ is the complete opposite. Very stable and friendly.

        • #2683954

          Well wth 6.5

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to …probs with NetWare 6.5

          with 6.5 your problems are even more vexing.

          I don’t know how you could possibly be having probs with 6.5, it is the best NOS I’ve seen/configured to date, by far.

          The only thing I noticed with 6.5 is it requires some fairly robust server hardware, dual processors and a gig of ram to start.

          Other than that it has been seamles in three installs I’ve done in the area, including GroupWise with clientless login.

        • #2683957

          …probs with NetWare 6.5

          by hagstrom ·

          In reply to Pure MS

          No, I don’t think we have any old stuff, we have Netware 6.5.

          As far as a pure M$ network goes, I’m taking care of our DMZ, which I have setup as a pure Win 2003 AD domain network. I very rarely have any problems, and when I do, I know what to do, to fix it.
          Compared to the Novell problems, that neither the inhouse admins can handle nor the outside Novell experts. We just have to live with the problems…

          Well, yeah, it’s personal experience, and becuase we have had it forever and it never gets any better, I tend to think Novell is bad, and M$ rules.

          And my personal experience wiht M$ is the complete opposite. Very stable and friendly.

        • #2681044

          No system is problem free

          by stephen ·

          In reply to …or rather bad Novell!

          But I’ve seen FEWER problems with Novell than MS products which can’t be explained/fixed. I don’t like one eyed Novell supporters any more than MS supporters… Both products can work.

          On a slightly different topic, maybe Hagstrom could have his Novell buddies post their problem in the newsgroup forums. I’ve been helped on many occasions from people who support and install the systems themselves, so they’re not just phone tech support, which has proved invaluable to myself and others in the past.

        • #2681012

          No system is problem free – AMEN

          by philip.coakes ·

          In reply to No system is problem free

          It’s lunchtime her in Blighty, so I can’t resist…

          “No system is problem free”. Never a truer word was spoken! And as Stephen says, both product families can be made to work, and work well.

          But my experience indicates that the biggest cause of a broken network is poorly trained specifiers, implementers and administrators. There are dozens of reasons why this happens: Poor management, that accepts the lowest bid to get the job done, without appropriate risk evaluation and management; Company Culture, that sees IT as a cost and not as a business enabler; Lack of a sandbox or test network. I could go on…

          I’m Bi-Certified and have set up many a network of either flavour, from scratch or migrations (both ways – MS to Novell & Novell to MS). I have also gotten involved in trouble shooting small business and corporate networks. Here is a truism: There are “good” networks, and there are “bad” networks. A network is much more than just the flavour of NOS & client OS. A badly designed or poorly understood or incorrectly configured network can be a nightmare. Once again, I have encountered both good and bad with either an MS or Novell NOS.

          Poorly designed DNS and associated name services, bridge / router / filtering, mixed frame types and additional protocols on the wire can have a disasterous effect on the environment, so I would suggest that these elements are factored in to your problem solving. If you don’t address your network foundation, you can migrate to MS, and still have a huge raft of problems to deal with.

          Thinking of the cited example, I encountered a mixed eDirectory/AD network, where as soon as the Novell client was introduced to an XP Pro workstation, it went like a dog with its hind lege ripped off! Turns out, the DHCP client scope was pointing to the Novell DNS server, and not the AD DC’s DNS. I changed the DHCP scope, renew leases, and XP client went like a rocket again. The guy who installed the AD had also configured his DNS server as a root server (think about it…) Just one example of many where a look at the fundamentals of the network changed the way the whole thing worked.

          Problems can also be compounded, by simply upgrading. So is it possible that a “new” NetWare 6.5 server is in fact an upgraded server, carrying forward all the configuration faults of its previous incarnation, rather than a “freshie” followed by a tree merge, or the use of the Server Consolidation Wizard? Have problems that were cleared up in the past been properly documented, and the reasoning behind the “fix” understood?

          Have you ever installed a service pack, without reading the readme.txt? It’s a mistake you should only ever make once.

          My wife used to be in the dressmaking / tailoring trade, where they have a saying. “Measure Twice, Cut Once”! It’s stood me in good stead since my own “bad” network – I haven’t had one since.

        • #2680839

          RE:No system is problem free – AMEN

          by lsisk2 ·

          In reply to No system is problem free – AMEN

          I find that in the IT industry there is one overwhelming problem that plagues it. It is the lack of talent, and the number of certified persons who hold jobs when they can not perform the required task. There are too many paper certificates holders still. But true talent is always in short supply. I?ve met quite a few MCSEs, and CNEs that I would never let work on a system I was responsible for, if I had my say.

          One company I worked for migrated to Win/AD because the CIO loved it. They called it more stable than NetWare. But they have a regular reboot schedule for the Win2K servers, something that they would never have considered for the NetWare servers. The biggest problem they had was with the third party server apps. You know things like virus scan and backup software that caused problems with all of their Intel servers.

          I agree with you networks are complicated creations. Each is different. There are many legacy networks that need work. If you upgrade your old systems without looking at all of the settings, you are just perpetuating old problems. I find that you find a lot of people that complain the most are the ones that know the least about the problem.

          As far as Zenworks I?ve found that if you don?t standardize your desktops you will have major problems. That is true with any desktop management program. I don?t mean the same OS, but each OS must be consistent. This should have been part of a properly laid out and fully implemented deployment plan.

          A lot of in-house deployments that are under-funded under staffed and/or under financed turn out to be disasters. Management always seems to blame the product (Which is valid in some cases.) But it is always easier than excepting management?s shortsighted understanding of the total value of the project. Of course a good desktop management tool may hurt the empire building ambition of midlevel managers.

        • #2729587

          Novell bugs

          by tom_sawyer70 ·

          In reply to Re: Novell bugs…

          Sounds like an administrative problem (based on the W95-XP roll out and support of a 5000 user environment, and seeing the two techs here support 16,000 users). I’ve never seen Zen randomly pull administrative rights to a machine, but then I don’t want my users to have that type of access anyway.

          “The biggest pain is when asking Novell the only response, if any, we get from them is “…install a patch…install a patch…””

          You’ve got a point here…You don’t have to ask Microsoft for a patch, just watch the news, the papers and the internet sites. If you have a question whether you need the patch, an easy litmus test is whether your entire network is down or not the next morning. You can save the ‘well, my network has never had such a problem,’ because the fact of the matter is that either you’re lying or you’ve wasted your life applying all of those patches (and will continue to do so weekly).

          Many times, problems are incurred because of Microsoft’s software, but they will not own up to it. Why, when an OS upgrade comes along, do I find myself on the phone with third-party companies who are now scrambling to patch their software rather than having MS fix what they obviously corrupted? Ever wonder why you have to upgrade third-party applications when you upgrade your Windows OS (in addition to the probably hardware upgrade you’ll need), but a 16yo can write a virus that whacks every Windows version?

          Yeah, go to an all-MS shop. Good luck.

      • #2683968


        by arleenw ·

        In reply to Novell bugs…

        This is because M$ is designing their software not to work with Netware, and Novell has to keep jumping the hurtles. Novell’s knowledge base and Cool Communities have tons of articles to solve the problems. Believe me, it’s not the Netware servers causing the problems.

        I found turning off the “Client for Microsoft Networks” and other unnecessary protocols on the workstations helped speed server access time.

    • #2684150

      Netware to Linux

      by rktyr81 ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I cut my teeth on Netware, and I still have it running parts of the network, but several years ago I decided I needed more. I looked at MS and Linux. I went with Linux (namely SUSE). The bottom line for me was control. If I have the source code, I control what’s happening on my system. I’m subject to a bunch of confidentiality laws, and I’m not interested in having my happy heinie held hostage by anyone’s black box software.

      As for learning curve, if you actually know how to run your system, as opposed to faking it the way I see a lot of sys ads do, the curve is small, no greater than with MS.

      • #2684098

        You’ll make mroe money with NW

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Netware to Linux

        As a MCNE you will be paid more money than an MCSE, you will work shorter hours and experience less problems.

        This will give you time to debug and patch all the Microsoft games you’ll buy to keep yourself busy at work. It’s like being a Maytag man, waiting for the phone to ring so you can fix something, other than the MS desktops of course.

    • #2684146

      Been Smelling Bad For A While

      by howard.blake ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Novell has been smelling bad for a long time – they just didn’t know they were dead!

      Unfortunately, Netware sat on their laurels too long and M$ put them under. Their product is nice, secure and probably the best net OS out there, but MS made it easier and less expensive to network (not to mention LESS SECURE). Netware just couldn’t figure out a new paradigm and has died a slow death.

      Marriage with Linux could spell a niche market for Netware, but I don’t see it ever having the prominence that it once had (pre-NT). A shame, really, as it is a nice system.

    • #2684144

      Linux not free???

      by mbaumli ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Last I checked, there is more linux documentation online than that of any OS. Plus there are plenty of free distributions, included Novell’s own SuSE. SuSE 9.0 is one that I have used personally and was quite fond of.

      Microsoft may be easier to learn, but they limit what you can do by requiring a GUI for everything. The Commandline world is so much faster. GUIs should be used for presentation of information only. To use them to navigate is rediculous.

      Linux gives you the option of the GUI, Linux gives you the option of what modules to load. Linux even let’s you modify the kernel.

      So with all that openness, you want to give it the cold shoulder and go Microsoft. That my friend is insane. True that Microsoft may be easier to learn, but that doesn’t make it any better. I have spent over 4 years tinkering with Linux, I haven’t gotten to where I can do whatever whenever, but I can do the majority of what I want on a Linux box. Infact, I am only a mailserver upgrade away from moving my system over to desktop linux at work.

      I am pretty impressed with what is available for linux as opposed to Windows. And it is becoming easier to find support for Linux.

      Go the Microsoft path if you shall, but OpenSource looks like it is out to make waves in the industry. Already Opensource as been eating away at Microsoft’s IIS, how long before SQL server, or other Microsoft apps begin to lose ground?

      • #2684100

        Re: Linux not free???

        by thearchitect ·

        In reply to Linux not free???

        Sure there are free distributions…why would we as a corporation want the free versions with no accountable support? And seems to me there is a charge for SuSE…

        “Microsoft may be easier to learn, but they limit what you can do by requiring a GUI for everything” You may want to do some reading up on the operating system before making comments like this. I’m constantly at the prompt doing things!

        • #2729575

          M$ really does $uck

          by 1mimmer45vvan ·

          In reply to Re: Linux not free???

          I don’t think it have anything to do with reading up on the operating system before making comments.
          It true M$ really is a bad OS to begin with. $$$$ greedy, too expensive, too many bugs and holes, the list goes on………..

          Too many law suit against the company tell me something about the company to begin with.

          Go with Linux or Mac if you want your money worth.

        • #2729533

          Yeah Sure …

          by dwdino ·

          In reply to M$ really does $uck

          All OS(es) have their problems. Those who proclaim MS sucks are simply not initiated to its quirks.

          Point 1: MS receives the most Hack/Virus attacks because it is THE biggest target. Period. Why write destructive tools for something as puny as Mac, Linux, or Novell.

          Point 2: Sorry Mac, but I have more than one brain cell, I can handle more than one mouse button. (Also cost)

          Point 3: Linux is not centrally managed. Another main reason (besides familiarity) that MS is on the desktop is that with AD, I can do anything to any desktop from the top, down. ZenWorks also provides this functionality, and I believe this is why most IT persons are anxious for the Novell Linux child.

          Point 4: Linux is designed to empower the knoledgeable user. One, my users would hurt themselves trying to sharpen a pencil. And second, I don’t want them having any power. I am the almighty network admin, and I will grant them what I deem fit. Muhahahaha 😀

          Point 5: Security is the responsibility of the user as well as the OS. The problem is, too many people want to leave a system wide open, not do their homework, then whine when it is hacked. That is like driving a Porsche 911 convertible into Miami/Harlem with the top down and keys in the ignition and wondering why it was stolen. C’mon!

          Point 6: Software – definitely MS favor.

          See, I have multiple platforms in my environment. I have W2K AS, Novell 4 & 5, Linux, W2K Pro. Each fills it particular role. Each does it’s job reliably. Each is secure. Each requires little management.

          Novell is being retired, AD has been implemented. I am not, however, paying MS fees for things I can do free on Linux.

          So, find the tool that works, and use it.

        • #2729523

          Novell is being retired ??

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Yeah Sure …

          Realy? I better warn my friends who are holding an Exchange to groupWise seminar next week!

          They are telling peopl eto uipgrade to something that is being retired? Oh my god, does NOVELL know? They just released 6.5 one of the most robust and secure platforms around?

          Oh no! The sky is falling!

          Then you woke up, right?

        • #2729463


          by dwdino ·

          In reply to Novell is being retired ??

          In our network, WE are retiring Novell.

          The word is context, you need to quit pulling
          one phrase out of a sentence/thought and getting
          so worked up.

          WE, US, OUR decision has been to remove Novell
          as it is no longer of use. To costly to upgrade,
          replaced with ADS, doesn’t fulfill any purpose
          on OUR network anymore.

          Also, I must be one unusual dog. We have 3 W2K
          AS systems, the shortest (unscheduled) reboot
          cycle has been 7 months. To clarify, a scheduled
          reboot is one that is done for system patches

          Also, I am typing this on my Dell Latitude with
          SuSE 9.0. I have had to reboot this thing about
          10 times to get the wireless Linksys card
          working. On XP, I never rebooted and was
          connected in 5 minutes, so, keep trying
          Linux. 😛

        • #2729283

          Out of context?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Yes

          Your COMPLETE unedited and paragraph in full context was;

          “Novell is being retired, AD has been implemented. I am not, however, paying MS fees for things I can do free on Linux.”

          Where does this say “WE, US, OUR decision has been to remove Novell as it is no longer of use.”

          You said I have taken a phrase out of a sentence and got so worked up.

          Now here is an example of a phrase taken out of one of your sentences and taken out of context.

          Your full sentence;
          “MS receives the most Hack/Virus attacks because it is THE biggest target. Period. MS receives the most Hack/Virus attacks because it is THE biggest target. Period. Why write destructive tools for something as puny as Mac, Linux, or Novell.

          Taken out of context:
          “something as puny as Mac, Linux, or Novell.”

          To which I may say “What is PUNY about one of the most robust NOS’s on the market?” These guys pioneered many of the secure network technologies that we use in our networks today.

          Now that is taking you words out of context.

          Perhaps your statement that I had addressed would be better left as part f the paragraph before it where you IMPLIED but didn’t state that it was related to YOUR environment. You didn’t though and it stood alone as a separate paragraph/statement about Novell being retired.

          In a discussion where many are slating the end of Novell, it may be better if you are specific. At the very least you could learn to correct someone’s misinterpretation of your meaning without implying they have a comprehension problem.

          If we are going to criticize grammar and comprehension, I will admit full out that my use of grammar and spelling here needs much to be desired, I just don’t pay that much attention when I am typing in a conversational manner.

          BUT…if we must nitpick, you said;
          “Point 1: MS receives the most Hack/Virus attacks because it is THE biggest target. Period. Why write destructive tools for something as puny as Mac, Linux, or Novell.”

          Which SHOULD read(I believe), “…because it is THE biggest target, period.”

          ‘Period’ is NOT a sentence by itself.

          Now that we understand how easily grammatical mistakes can be misinterpreted, perhaps you will understand why people read a different meaning than you intended. This is the root of all evil in these discussions, people making bold statements and others misinterpreting them.

          Do we dwell on this as an issue that needs to be addressed or do we just move on without correcting people, it could really impede the converstions if we stop to reiterate our posts.

    • #2684138

      Netware is King

      by kmoskey ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Novell Netware is the king of the operating system world. I compare Microsoft and Netware like this. Microsoft is the Walmart of OS’s. Warm and fuzy ad’s that lure you into the their world of cheap crap.
      Netware on the other hand is the finely tuned mom and pop shop that has always provided the best products and service at all levels. Always consistant and reliable. Novell is only guilty of failing in marketing not at producing a quility product. I only dream of the day I can “pick the pockets” of hundreds of thousands of people of 10’s of thousands of dollars and not be accountable for any damages. Its the old joke about if Microsoft made a car….

      • #2684129


        by synthetic ·

        In reply to Netware is King

        We have run Novel on the LAN side since our organization created them 13 years ago. Our work stations and WANs are both M$ operated. Towards the beginning of last year, one of the senior planners got bit by the M$ bug and started developing the possibility of going to a homogenous M$ environment. Thankfully, Slammer, and a host of other nasty exploits (as well as serious push-back from those of us who actually administer these systems in the field) was enough to show that M$ homogeny a bad idea. While many of our WAN functions were down for patching, some workstations, and some exchange server banks were out, our users still had access to local client and user data files, as well as LAN servers applications. Had this not been the case close to a week of total down time would have been experienced, and we could have stood to have lost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Novell is solid, functional, and stays up with little oversight, and little need for heavy weight hardware. Microsoft has yet to show a thoroughly dependable product that requires little oversight, and limited expense past the point of purchase.

        • #2684125

          Re: Absolutley…

          by thearchitect ·

          In reply to Absolutley!

          “Thankfully, Slammer, and a host of other nasty exploits (as well as serious push-back from those of us who actually administer these systems in the field)”

          You administer the systems in the field and got hit by Slammer? Read this!!!

          “Don’t blame Microsoft. Don’t blame the hackers. Blame yourself for insecure software. Better yet, stop blaming and start moving toward operational excellence.”

        • #2684113

          Operation excelence?

          by synthetic ·

          In reply to Re: Absolutley…

          As stated, due to this and a number of nasty exploits, many discovered by outside vendors with viral releases before the patches were made available. And then please note, that servers were down inside of the organization due to those sectors and administrators either bringing down to patch, and test the functional level of the patches, or are you so enveloped in M$ that your unaware of the operational issues that happen time and time again with their patches and proprietary software? We in the field didn’t get hit, but down time happens when a sector in the global organization is closed, or when a clients web based server is down, understand. Maybe one day you to can work for organization that employees thousands in the IT sector of the firm, with locations world wide and a huge range of operational needs, then you might also understand that patching the reactive M$ way is not enough. I had a NDPS print server in a closed environment at a client site that had been up and running without need of a reboot, without any lock, or any other maintenance for over three years. That the beginning, end, and forced upgrade period for Microsoft. That is truly operational excellence.

        • #2684009

          Okay …

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Operation excelence?

          just a question I would like to ask. What is the cost of a fully licence of NetWare that includes everything that W2K Server has (as services I mean)? Because I talked about that with a very friend of mine, specialist in Novel, and I have shown him what W2K can do. You know what he said? This can be done with Novel very easy, but for each of the “services” you have to pay and pay … and so on.
          Needless to say about group policies and VPNs and RRAS. Each of these costs lots of money! Or at last that’s what he said to me.

        • #2681172

          Look at NW 6.5

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Okay …

          NE 6.5 comes packaged with Apache, MySQL, PERL, TOMCAT and PHP.

          NOvell XIMIAN Linux for desktops or XD2, includes
          “All-inclusive – no additional license fees for enclosed applications:

          Open Source Office Suite:
          SUN Star Office
          Codeweaver Crossover Office for the integration of MS Office
          Communication unlimited:
          Mail client, scheduler application, data exchange with PDA
          SAP client, Windows 2000 terminal client, x3270 – and x5250 – terminal emulators, etc.
          KDE desktop security system (Kiosk)
          Automated installation with SUSE AutoYaST
          Remote administration via SUSE YaST Online Update (YOU)
          Network services (samba, FTP, DHCP, HTTP, SNMP, etc.)”

          Spend sometime browsing Netware and Ximian, Suse Linux desktop under Products at
          You’ll be amazed at what is in the box!

        • #2684015

          Good point

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Re: Absolutley…

          Arch! When you are hit by slammer you start asking what is about your system or what is about you as admin? My opinion is “what kind of admin are you?” In fact, lets face it once for all, it’s not the system fault, it does not exist such system! It’s only about what and which thing you do when in front of a server.

      • #2684128

        Re: Netware is King of WHAT?

        by thearchitect ·

        In reply to Netware is King

        “Novell Netware is the king of the operating system world”…come on…*nix is the ruler of the operatin world!

        “ and pop shop..” and like most of them it’s going away, right out of the mouth of the engineers at Novell. “…the kernel is a commodity and will go away soon with the coming of Linux..”

        • #2684092

          Alright chicken little

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Re: Netware is King of WHAT?

          We all know that Sunday is the end of the world and that the sky will fall next Wednesday.

          I will build my fallout shelter this Saturday and stock it for many years of doom and gloom.

          The end is near, thank you for your insight I was actually living happily, what do I know!?

      • #2684093

        Without Subjects

        by dwdino ·

        In reply to Netware is King

        With less than 17% (generous) of the NOS market, Novell is near the bottom. Most of this install base is probably at Novell.

        Maybe Suse will turn Novell’s foutune by meeting the biggest need of Linux – desktop/central management.

        We run a completely native MS AD domain. The last string of viruses have given us 0, zip, notta problem.

        I would love to save money with Linux, but until it is as refined as MS for my desktop users and controllable from my dugeon :D, forget it.

        • #2684083


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Without Subjects

          Honda build smaller lighter cars than Jaguar.

          Honda builds cars that IF TAKEN CARE OF IMMACULATELY, will last for some time, as does Jaguar.

          Honda sells MANY times the number of cars that Jaguar does.

          Honda holds a MUCH larger market share in the mid and compact sized markets than Jaguar does.

          Does Jaguar inundate the mainstream public with it’s car ads? NO, it doesn’t sell it’s products to those looking for cheap solutions.

          Does Jaguar advertise in magazines, radio, SPAM mail, etc? No, again high end market looking for high end solutions.

          Does Jaguar cost more than a Honda? Yes.

          Does Jaguar place thier badge on crappy SUV’s, Luxury and entry level cars, VANS?? NO.

          Why not?

          They build MUCH better cars, why ruin a reputation by trying to fill a market segment that will detract from your manufacturing success.

          My question:
          Why does Jaguar still exist?

          Better car, better manufacturing, FAR FAR better engineering, better braking system (also adopted by Volvo), ride comfort, reliability of parts etc.

          Why does Novell still exist? Do the math it’s a no brainer.

        • #2684025


          by racerpat ·

          In reply to Honda

          Jaguar still exists because they were bought by a 900 lb. gorilla (Ford). There’s probably an analogy there somewhere 🙂

        • #2683981

          Not at all

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Honda

          Jaguar was not bailed out at all, they were aquired by Ford just as Lamborghini was by Chevrolet. Lamborghini was not having financial problems.

          Jaguar is owned by ford but they are still hand built in a separate facility and marketed and sold as Jaguar NOT Ford. Therefore ownership has no bearing, I am referring to quality here.

          As a long time member of the SAE (And licenced Ford mechanic)I am very passionate on this paticular subject regarding automotive engineering excellence, something the Japanese can do but not to suit the North American market or price range, enter Accura.

        • #2683975

          Honda vs Jaguar

          by racerpat ·

          In reply to Not at all

          Jaguar was flat broke when Ford bought ’em. I made my living repairing Jags for 20 years (I’ve owned more than a few of ’em). Before Ford, the quality was so good that a popular conversion was the replacement of the DOHC Jag engine with a 289 Ford V8 🙂

          There’s that analogy again, 900 lb. gorillas can be good things – if they’re RICH gorillas 🙂

        • #2683960

          Volvo’s interest

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Honda vs Jaguar

          Volvo bought the brake caliper piston designs from Jaguar before they were picked up by Ford (as they had tried to do for too many years). Ford offered them MORE money than they needed and they took it. They had already resolved the major financial problems before the buyout.

          This still bears no meaning whatsoever on the point I made though, Jaguar has made and kept a niche market for themselves that Honda can’t and won’t, it’s a different market. This doesn’t mean either is right or wrong, but proves that you don’t need mass mareketing to sell a quality product, people ‘seek’ quality.

          I just sold my Jag before moving to the Island, I REALLY miss it on the Island Hwy which used to be fun. I am looking at a 450 SL but I dunno If I wanna machine parts again every other weekend, I think I’ll hang on to my truck.

    • #2684132

      Novell Linux and future of Netware

      by paul_a_leroy ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      It?s best to have expertise in both MS and Linux camps. Linux will be big at the server level, but wouldn?t make any inroads on the desktop. With Linux you also have a large choice of open source tools and applications you can supply your customers and support.

      • #2684075

        Have you seen Novell/Linux for desktops yet?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

        “Linux will be big at the server level, but wouldn?t make any inroads on the desktop.”

        Were you asleep last fall? Perhaps winter hibernation or something? Novell Linux for (Suse)desktops is one of the hottest things I’ve laid eyes on in years!

        You take the most reliable NOS and run it on a Linux kernel, sounds pretty viable to me. The desktop rollout is a massive package with licences for almost everything, including Office suite, graphics, multimedia etc. Windoze, not even a close relative in respect to licencing and desktop functionality/stability.

    • #2684131

      History Repeats…

      by teligence ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Instead of trying to determine the feasibility of switching to either Linux or Microsoft, let’s look at history in general. Generally speaking, any society that has taken the “easy way out” has always done so at a price. Often, the initial enticesments clouded realistic perception of future repercussions. People would side with certain barons, lords, or other type of leadership because of either convenience or force. The value of safety, food, shelter, and other necessities weighed heavily in drawing the loyalty of those in need. However, it was a rare occasion when those in charge did NOT usurp and misuse the authority they had.
      Jump forward a few centuries to the present. Crime hasn’t gone away – it has just gotten better at disguise and evasion. Take a look at the big cities – there is not one major city that does not have some type of organized crime offering “protection” for the people and businesses in their respective districts. Just going along with the flow just gets them in deeper, minimizing the recipients’ ability freely operate. Enforcement stays away beecause it’s either too costly, too complicated, or they are too closely associated.

      In any case, whenever a “giant” controls the general populace, exploitation historically occurs. The historical remediation has almost invariably involved the victims banding together and creating their own “operating system”.

      I hope you can see the parallels…

      With that aside, Microsoft is the easy choice, but the question for siding with Microsoft is “What is the short AND long term cost for this ease?”. The subsequent question for the Linux choice is “What do I need that is missing in Linux that Microsoft provides, and what are the development and support costs for choosing Linux?”.

      • #2684046

        re History Repeats…

        by dbremer ·

        In reply to History Repeats…

        You address some good points regarding a choice of OS. However, the origonal poster is not looking at choosing which to migrate to in his business. He is looking at which to specialise in to SUPPORT clients. This is an entirely different matter.

        I regard it entirelly unethical to recommend a product simply because it requires lots of support (which I supply) – but it is just plain silly to put all my efforts in developing my support ability in products that aren’t in the market – altho having a niche is nice if you can get a decent population.

        For a support person (consultant, etc), the question isn’t “which runs best for my business” – it’s “what do my clients, or potential clients, need supported”.

        It’s the old BETA vs VHS issue. BETA may be better – but you’d go broke only supplying videos in that format.

        • #2681170

          Good frame of mind??

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to re History Repeats…

          “For a support person (consultant, etc), the question isn’t “which runs best for my business” – it’s “what do my clients, or potential clients, need supported”.

          In a financial perspective this may be of interest to someone, much like the car that dies after the warranty expires.

          Then again, from a sales and performance perspective, selling on or two good installs of Netwaer has fed me more business than I could generate myself. Peolpe talk, when one guys is complaining about his IT budget rising the other has NO IT budget. This gets people asking how they can also fire one or two guys and lower thier operating costs. my number gets passed on, I sell and install a viable solution. do you think I’m ever NOT going to get repeat business from these guys? Plus I made a bundle on the software/hardware sale itself, and have nothing breaking up my day with BS issues that have me driving all over the island to resolve and reboot servers. I just remote in if users need adding, email accounts change etc.

    • #2684087

      Netware shocker

      by dchappell ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I am surprised to hear that Netware is going away. Is this rumor or fact? It seems like a strange thing to do since they have spent so much time and money making iyt look like a windows app.

      I dont think I would spend time on Linux either. It is much more beneficial to focus on Microsoft and Cisco products.

      • #2684074

        MS’s pipe dream

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Netware shocker

        Kinda like the whole Alice in wonderland thing, too much hooka with a caterpillar.

        As chicken little said “the sky is falling!”

        Novell isn’t going ANYWHERE but up, looking at the latest rollouts, I would say Microsoft has a long way to go to even begin competing with Novell, they are just trying to use some underhanded scare tactic marketing as always.

        by the way, the entire discussion was started by a peer on TR. Your choice, fact or fiction, or even speculation.

    • #2684064

      When Linux or Xnix leads the market – I’ll be in front

      by harperwill ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      But, right now, Microsoft is at the head of the parade. There ARE appropriate places for Linux and Xnix, but they aren’t enough to butter the bread of everybody. It’s a good idea to keep up with Linux/Xnix, because you will have calls and needs to use it – but your marketing plan should have Microsoft leading your parade.

      Will Harper, MCSE, MCT, CCNA, CTT+ (etc).

    • #2684032

      Does Novell really need to reward you – Cant your customers do that?

      by register1 ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I’m not usre I’d let my annoyance at Novell cause me to run over to M$. Take a look at your customer’s needs, can the Novell-Linux path continue to provide them better, more cost effective solutions? If it can, I’d leverage my relationship with them, and with their current solutions and move on up with the Novell-Linux set. If, you see M$ as the only way to continue to server your customers, swith to M$.

      Don’t let a little change in skill sets cost you an existing customer base. Remember you didn’t know Novell at first either….


    • #2684031

      My two cents

      by gometrics ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Go where the work is. After deploying W2K3 for a 50+ employer, I just don’t see how linux can compete in this market. It is an impressive system security concerns and all. Microsoft provided free training in Kenner, LA on the new features. Nothing like this for linux.

      Bottom line is if my clients start asking about linux then I will learn linux.

      • #2684017

        sort an opinion?

        by farkelnagelmak ·

        In reply to My two cents

        I’ve been working computing in some form or another since being trained to fix airborneanti-radar computing on spy planes for USAF during VietNam “police” activities. After 8 years I got out and worked for the Wall Street journal on pdp-8’s in octal. There was more money in software so I taught myself this new stuff called “c” on pdp-11’s. Then I was offered an MVS job writing assembler. Then Vaxen,Suns,XP doing real-time prices to desktops at brokerage. Bottom line is- there was once an axiom —“no one was ever fired for buying IBM”. That referred to 12 million dollar mainframes. Then came RISC and those who didn’t change their thinking went broke. Go with what makes you money and always look forward – TEACH YOURSELF. What makes money today could disappear overnight. Netware — died with IPX/SPX. Start with whichever- XP or Linux (it’s just the popular version of Unix today.) Learn the other as soon as possible and emphasize networking. Sorry I tend to ramble………


    • #2684027

      Concern at the student level.

      by hankogwm ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I too seem to be in a similar situation…why should I learn it if I may not need it!

    • #2684000

      Definition of a fool

      by jack_j_guarnera ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      A fool is someone who does something the same way as last time and expects a different result.
      Novell has never made it easy for us to sell THEIR product to our employers. As pgm544 points out, MS supplies demos and presentations of their products while Novell admins have to make their own to convince higher-ups that it’s a sound product. That’s just one point, but that’s how it’s always been.
      I began in the industry as a Novell Engineer. I’ve always liked the product and I do wish it survives but I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t and I won’t have to wonder who’s to blame. It may be too late.

      • #2683969

        Whos to blame

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Definition of a fool

        Well Microsoft seels the product so it’s dealers don’t have to. This is why we end up with such misleading info about MS.

        When I was growing up and started to learn sales management, if an IT guy wanted to sell a product, I’d laugh hysterically, techs do not make good sales people, they are methodical thinkers by nature and not free thinkers as you need to be in sales, therefore expecting an IT staff member to sell a product is an absurd thought.

        Another reason why everyone has sales staff and IT staff. The two compliment one another yet they both need each other.

        When I go out to do a quote or some consulting work, it is MY job to sell the vendors product, NOT the vendor. MS has made people lazy by selling it’s OWN products and not relying on a tech to seel it, smart move as it allows them to use much more assertive sales tactics that most IT staff are not aware even exist.

        When up against a good salesman, you don’t even know you’re being sold, because a good salesman has you sell yourself on the product to the point that you are asking him to sell it to you.

        if you have a stable organization with an effective sales process, the tech doesn’t even enter the picture until objections are raised or concerns adhereing to a specific networking issue.

        The salesman just sells the soluition, if he can’t you hire a real salesman.

        What I see too often is IT techs and netadmins, saying “I wanna be a consultant” with at most a YEARS worth of sales experience or a couple of entry level sales courses AT MOST, he then ventures out to promote, sell, install and maintain products. Good luck and watch your toes, I’m coming through.

        If you have a decent sales team, or ability yourself, you would not even consider how well the company promotes it’s products. I’ve successfully marketed products where the company doesn’t even exist here as it is a manufactuiring company in Taiwan. Good thing I didn’t need THEM to presell thier products!

        marketing, sales and presentation skills, don’t look to the manufacturer it’s not thier job.

        Sell it yourself, make people believe it yourself, find the strengths and weaknesses yourself, find the reasons you r customer will benefit YOURSELF. Put your hand back in your pocket and get some work done, feature, function, benefit, trial close, rebuttal, trial close, close. It’s work, if you don’t want to do it, find someone who will.

    • #2681152

      The slow painful demise of Netware

      by ajmsandy ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Having worked in this industry of ours as a networking consultant for the last 20 years or so I grew up with Netware. For many years earned my living working here in the UK and in NYC. At that time I could never have envisaged what would happen to the then Giant of Networking. The way this company have squandered the family jewels is nothing less than tragic. Since the debacle with Word Perfect and DR DOS, the company never seemed to recover drifting into one disaster after another, without doubt the huge cash pile they accrued in the late 80’s to middle 90’s has helped them to survive.

      Where I live here in Hungerford, we had located a half mile away the Novell European Support Centre, stocked with a finer bunch of engineers as I have ever met. Support was fantastic, by skilled people who really knew the product and cared about the problems you brought to their door. Many I have worked with became good friends. Without warning a few years ago now, they were all dismissed and the centre closed. Technical support then went from brilliant in every way to non-existent.

      As a networking course instructor for Learning Tree International the first course I gave was for installing Netware V5. So I can say that I put the commitment into the product and saw it die in the marketplace. Yes, 8 years ago I decided it was time to have a look around after dabbling in Banyans ‘Vines’ ( Another product that faded away) I started to move into the Gates & Co Camp, what a revelation it was, this stuff was toy town compared to Netware. Over the last 4 years or so I saw the products from the MS camp become heavily adopted in the business arena. I believe this was for a very good reason; I was working on Wall Street and the London Stock Exchange at the time. I became aware that companies were running for cover as they were to a man scared to death that Novell was going to go bust. Anywhere would do as long as it was not Novell. As the PC desktop was rapidly becoming Windows, the logical progression was to move to Microsoft Networking even though the products were difficult to say the least. The damage was done and nothing Novell was ever going to do was going to stem the tide of change. Remember the Sony BetaMax tape? Do I think the Linux thing will be another ill conceived disaster, you can bet your life on it.

      I say; Make your move and don’t look back, you have a living to make, and sentiment is just too dammed expensive these days. I really do not believe that Novell is not coming back, like dinosaurs they always end up extinct and that?s the way it should be. Compete or die!

      This is one Dinosaur that likes to compete, Oh! Last year I started into the Apple stuff, but that?s another story as they say..

      • #2681131

        INteresting and deflating

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to The slow painful demise of Netware

        well your morbid account of your views on Netware makes me want to tell all my customers I was wrong, the new systems that they ove so much are junk and the company is going tits up.

        The fact that Novell has shown a positive cash suplus in thier last four quarters has me thinking otherwise. Companies here are JUMPING on the NOvell bandwagon as they are tired of hirig a team of netadmins to keep things running. Novell’s market share has grown substantially over the last year, they didn’t go away and haven’t come back but thay have become better and thier newer system as always is one to be looked up to and matched by others.

        My customers are happy with the MS > Novell switch. They are even happier when they aren’t targeted by all the crap that Windows users are always addressing and patching. You see, Microsoft is a US product controlled by a coporation that rubs Canaidan business ethics the wrong way. MS would’ve lasted a year in Canada before being shunned from the marketplace for thier marketing approach. Many people here would rather go back to pen and paper filing systems than deal with a MS product. We support business based on ethics and morals shown by the business, that’s why smaller businesses thrive in most Canada and major corporations move to Toronto or Washington. Wierd example but it’s true, corporations have taken over the Toronto business district, they have learned to accept it although they don’t like it.

        So while YOUR days with Novell are numbered, they are growing here stronger than ever.

      • #2681104

        Mac logs onto Novell Server

        by pipe guy ·

        In reply to The slow painful demise of Netware

        Well at least in your travels through the IT world, from Netware to MS to Mac you ended up with a product that at least logs onto a Netware server. Just another one of those features that a person in a pure MS environment would never have to worry about. Here’s another situation. One of our users recently took his laptop out of country and forgot to take his power adaptor with him. Since he figured he only had about two hours of battery life on his computer he basically logged onto the netware server over the internet from his highspeed connection in his hotel room and copied all of the necessary files for his presentation to his “mapped drives” on the server. The connection was pretty slow compared to being connected at the office, but in about 10 minutes he had put all of his files onto his user drive on the server. He then shut his laptop down. Went to the hotel’s business suite, downloaded those same files onto one of the desktops in the hotel using the “netstorage” ability. He then was able to work on the presentation for four hours. Then he uploads it back to the server and gets the customer to download it the next day in the customer’s own office. Yes they were impressed, yes “netstorage” worked very well. Yes they didn’t even know that this could be done by small companies, without a VPN client on someone else’s computer that basically only has a browser attached? Yes the guy could have downloaded it if he had a mac or a wireless palm for that matter. Could it have been done in a MS environment… Not out of the box. But these sorts of situations never happen to anyone else. But when they do… it sure was nice to have a solution that worked.

    • #2681147

      No Where near the end of Netware !!

      by araspa ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Netware kernel will still exist. You have the ‘option’ of running netware over linux or a linux desktop. They have done this as a strategic decision to move forward with the times. This will further cement netware notsee its demise.

    • #2681132

      Netware isn’t leaving the scene for a very long time

      by pipe guy ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I think it would be a very safe bet that in the next two years there will be a catastrophic failure of the Windows Server Products. When this happens, it will force many IT Directors to seek out “secure” and “safe” products. The class action lawsuits haven’t started yet, but when they do… Everyone will turn from these products that caused the problem faster than you can say, “Firestone Tires on Ford Explorers”. There is no question that learning the new Netware/Linux product will be time consuming and a frustrating ordeal. Many Netware specialists are daunted by the task at hand. But once they’ve built two or three servers in this “brave new world”, they will start to appreciate why Novell has gone down this apparently lonely road. The only threat that M$ claims in their annual report, isn’t Sun, Novell or IBM… their only threat is “linux” and “open sourced” IT systems. If Linux runs successfully for Banks and Insurance companies on Netware boxes… as it will. Smaller businesses will also adopt it just has they have adopted the Apache web server that currently runs on Netware servers. Especially when their information has already been compromised on a recent MS box. With the host of privacy legislation enacted over the past year or so in North America it will only be a matter of time before M$ will be attempting to defend itself against a “hopelessly” insecure server system. But as a consultant who gets paid for fixing systems…. the M$ world is probably a lot more lucrative until you get named in the law suit… So just because M$ has the resources to fight a lengthy legal battle. This doesn’t mean that the dealers and network specialists that convinced the law firms and insurance companies to turn to MS in the first place will still be in business after some enormous identity theft occurs from a large firm and the fingers start to get pointed. But of course this is only a theory. But if the recent spat of viruses is any indicator of what is to happen in the future… Just one of the viruses has to be successful at both spreading itself, “hijacking” information and then causing huge physical damage by “repartitioning” or reformating hard disks. It will happen… its only a matter of time. And when it does… the handwringing will soon turn to “neck wringing” . Personally I’d prefer to had recommended the system I knew wasn’t full of security holes. But having to patch two of them each week, does provide a tempting consulting fee.

    • #2681101

      Consider what your pager duty will be like

      by elph ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Hi, I’ve lived on both sides of the fence for quite some time now – supporting large Email environments that center around Microsoft Exchange. We’ve got a lot of infrastructure that makes up the environment, including edge devices that are running an extremely secure build of Linux with Postfix doing mail relay. Inside we’ve got bridgeheads and mail servers running W2K and Exch2K. As far as supporting the environment goes, the people who carry pager for the Windows boxes are busy 90% of the time responding to issues, etc. Whereas the Linux pager people spend maybe 10% of their time responding to issues, etc. The learning curve for Linux is a little steeper, but the advantage of that is that it’s going to be harder for other people to reach the same level of expertise that you can acquire, without investing a similar amount of time.

      Linux is definitely here to stay – but Microsoft is not going anywhere. I believe Novell has made a very wise decision in embracing Linux and leveraging their expertise in building solutions around it. The biggest difference between MS systems and Linux-centric systems, in my experience, is that Linux systems are much more specific in nature – or in other words, you don’t run as many apps on them. That, in combination with an inherently secure OS, makes for a very pleasant platform to work on (once you reach a certain level of base knowledge). Microsoft boxes are generally multi-purpose, serving several different roles in an environment, which automatically cuases the support time to increase, due to the increased complexity. Both have their place and things they’re better at.

      I don’t think you can go wrong with investing time in learning more about Linux and the new offerings of Novell. Regardless of how Novell does with it’s offerings, the skills you’ll learn with Linux will transfer easily into any future jobs you may have. And if you get the training now, you’ll be slightly ahead of a wave of people who are looking more every day towards a landscape in which *nix is a big player in places previously dominated by Microsoft. Skills with Microsoft product will also continue to be in high demand, but your best strategy is to pick a niche where you want to become known as a “specialist” – be that messaging, active directory, networking, etc. Do the work to gain the certs but focus your electives and personal study to becoming proficient in that niche and eventually you’ll be to a point where the certs are nice for the resume but your experience will be more important when it comes to face to face time with a customer or employer.

      Good luck, making a fork in the road decision like this is always hard.

    • #2681099

      NetWare mounted on Linux beats Microsoft hands down for security

      by rpvlko ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I am trained in the use of NetWare mounted on both Linux and Microsoft OS and in Microsoft products used to provide a secure Enterprise enviornment. NetWare mounted on Linux isn’t any harder to learn than Active Directory and it doesn’t have all the “backdoors” Microsoft builds into its products. If you want security go with Novell. The written material may not come with as many illustrations but your better than that anyway.

    • #2681094

      Collaboration and email advantages

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Nobody has mentyioned what is the real backbone to Novell right now, which in my view is GroupWise and the i-Folders.

      Groupwise is like a fortress for email, GWAVA for groupwise gets the spam and virus scanning taken care of BEFORE the messages are passed to the MTA for distro.
      Groupwise has the nicest and safest web access i’ve worked with, the Border Manager VPN is second to none and ZenWorks is well…..zen to work with?

      Novell isn’t just the NOSprovider anymore as they have improved messaging and file sharing/collaboration systems that are finally offering funcionality, stability and security well above and beyond the MS offerings.

      Now with NW 6.5 ALSO coming BOXED with
      Apache 2.0.45
      MySQL 4.0.12
      Perl 5.8
      PHP 4.2.3
      Tomcat 4.1.18

      they are providing an entire suite of tools instead of the basic NOS offerings of yesterear.

      Couple that with Virtual Office and you’ve got one hell of a value for money. Check out the Virtual office FLASH demo from the first link it’s STUNNING!!

    • #2681056

      Okay, lets talk MONEY!

      by stephen ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Sounds like you’re frustrated with not being sure of where to go, and although there is plenty of MS work out there, you’ll also be fighting for that work with every other equally experienced (or better) MCSE out there of which there are many. Easier work usually = mediocore money.
      Even from your own original post, you’ve already identified a possible good source of future income – Migrating NetWare clients to Linux. Yes, training is necessary but you should easily be able to command more money with NetWare to Linux migrations than with the currently more common NetWare to Windows migrations.
      There will be fewer people properly qualified and with the number of NetWare installs still out there you should find plenty of business.

      BTW: You CAN get plenty of software from Novell that isn’t timebombed – it’s called the Novell Software Evaluation and Development Library which if you qualify comes for free, or is US$250 which if you’re running a business should be completely tax deductable and is a very small price to pay to enhance your business.

    • #2681009

      Novell continued or Microsoft

      by asimpson ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Some good points were discussed about the training and software availability that Novell defeninitly needs to work on. However, in the past Novell has consistantly delivered fairly straight forward packages that don’t require thick books to learn enough to support and install. I installed 2.2 as a test from my boss when I was hired, I had never heard of Novell before that, and had no documentation, the install took an hour and was fully functional. From there I learned 3.12, and 4.11 on the job, again, no big books required, Became a 5.0 CNA by self study, no professional classes, (but did buy 2 big books for that), and again with 6.0 and 6.5.

      Our company has 2 MCSE’s that still have read or go to class for everything they need, ESPECIALLY Exchange and its miriad of problems and fixes.
      I’ve never had a Groupwise server take more than
      3 hours to fix. And don’t get started on Microsoft’s complex licensing requirements.

      I’m sure that changing to Linux will cause some headaches, but with Novell’s expertise in packaging their products it will be manageable. Plus Novell is still the most stable and (in my opinion at least) superior product. Besides, Linux is cathing on, and being able to support it in the future might be a bigger benifit than anyone realizes now.

      • #2680938

        Self study

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Novell continued or Microsoft

        You’re right. Even though I went to school for my MCNE, I studied for my 5.1 CNA just by on the job experience.

        I actually went to London Drugs (big retail drug store) that has a clearance bin for computer books. The Mastering 5.0 text was $9.95 (down from $80.00) I just looked into what had changed between 5 & 5.1 and passed the CNA first time around. Piece of cake really. the MCNE was a little more daunting but I talked a former employer into paying for that one.

    • #2681000

      Recent TCO by IDC

      by smcgirk ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      A recent TCO published by IDC shows the cost of MS Windows vs. Linux over 5 years that Windows is a lower cost. Smart companies will go with what is has a lower TCO and better ROI. While it’s good to have skills in both but my money is on MS. Server 2003 and II 6 blow away the competition, i thought i would never say that but it’s true.

      PS: don’t count out Netware yet, it’s still as solid as ever.

      • #2680980

        TCO is in the eye of the reader

        by stephen ·

        In reply to Recent TCO by IDC

        It’s nice to quote TCO stats isn’t it? Win3.1 workgroup server, NT3.51, NT4….. none had reasonable TCO’s yet they were still installed. If you, or anyone else bothers to read entire TCO reports you will see they are never as obvious as a single stat. Business structure, industry, country and many other factors will heavily influence TCO.

        I can quote REAL LIFE stats from where I’m sitting but somewhere else it may be very different. We run *legacy* NetWare 5.1 on 40 servers (newest is 3 years old) with GroupWise, ZENworks for Desktops, Handhelds & Servers, BorderManager supporting 1500 users with 2 admins – total. This includes all facets of server related monitoring, maintenance (inc. backups), troublshooting and 3rd line support issues which our service desk can’t fix.

        We are moving to a complete Win2003 environment using 20 servers (all brand new) and a SAN and are using consultants from MS – not a partner, but MS themselves. They’ve told us: 2 admins for Exchange, 1 for SMS, 1 for Mom and 2 3rd line support. These will be dedicated roles. Add to this the increase in licensing and for OUR environment it will carry a LOT higher TCO than our current infrastructure. We are still moving to a consolidated MS environment due to business goals and long term strategy where MS will be playing a very big part.

        TCO isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of why you should choose an OS.

    • #2680975

      Gossip, Hype, and Negativity

      by grindylow ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      It’s can be fun to speculate about the demise of Novell an poke fun at some of their past business decisions. But we won’t know the results of Novell’s recent and present strategic moves until sometime in the future. What will the market reaction be over time? Will we embrace the Novell robust support infrastructure combined with solid Linux solutions integrated by the Suse and Ximian acquisitions? Who knows. IBM is trying the same thing…

      What about eDir, ZENworks, iFolder, BOMA, iPrint, etc.? Novell is working to make all of these tools platform independent.. and their functionality is excellent at present.

      I currently manage an environment with 6000 workstations at over 100 sites utilizing ZfD4 (with and without the client) to deploy over 1200 different applications, Netware 6.0/6.5 over IP using CIFS to eliminate dependence on IPX for highly available, fast, and extremely manageable file services, iFolder for data replication and backup at more remote locations, iPrint maps for techno-tard printer installation, and more… Novell helps us kick major butt..

      Our Netware 6.5 clustered servers offer cheap, fast and highly available file services (and a few other services we’ve included in the cluster)along with data replication services.

      Yes, we have some EMC filers ($$$$$$), and YES they are unbreakable and fast… So we have a battle there, and so does Novell in the long-term.

      I think Novell is making some bold, smart, strategic moves. But only the future will tell if they (and I) are right about that.

      We’ll see…

      My biggest gripe right now is AD GPO management, Desktop vulnerability holes, and other MSFT related pain. We’re patching fiends just like everyone else, but in this case ZENworks is saving MSFT butt.

      my 2 cents.

    • #2680962

      NetWare or Linux, both for companies with NO money to burn

      by skiphefel ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Linux: no experience, but anyone that is keeping up with the trade journals and technology jobs will see that Linux is quickly becoming the defacto open standard. Why else would Novell’s stock go from $2.50 up to $10.00 in a short time that it acquired it. The intelligent wall street investors know something. Security: About maybe 1-1.5 security notices/ issues per month according to the SANS report. Plan to see tighter security as users implement eDirectory famed for it rock solid security.

      NetWare: I’ve worked with NetWare and GroupWise since late ’94 and have found it to be secure, stable, and robust when I worked for a major college publisher and later a major midwest health care provider. Both used NetWare and GroupWise for major cost savings and minimal babysitting of it’s servers. Presently, I do some consulting for a couple of small businesses that I average about 40 hours per year on work station and server issues. This past year about 10 hours was wasted on a failing HP tape drive and troubleshooting it. They are running NW4.2 for small business and GW5.2. They have no people with any IT background and are fully dependent on external support. Just recently I was asked to start working on a upgrade proposal to NW6.5 for Small business.

      Presently, the company I work for using NetWare 5.1 throughout the enterprise for file, print, and network security. Also we use the ZenWorks for Desktops to quickly apply the M$ policies for the specific departments and users and to deliver shortcuts to apps and upgrades.
      Security: one or two issues a year if that.

      Micro$oft: Spending is the largest chunk of IT budget. Virus attacks and security issues twice a week on the average. Network traffic is generated daily for the workstation to constantly get updated almost daily with virus signatures.
      Major amounts of baby sitting and maintenance.

      Good luck on your decision!

    • #3382108

      My Turn – apologies to Oz_Media

      by david_thomson ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Hello people,
      The question is not so much about quality of OS but the profitability of understanding the OS. As a comparison Betamax VCRs were better quality and I am sure the Betamax technicians and VHS technicians were arguing just as solidly.
      Betamax is still in use today, just not the general public.
      If one is a consultant, one will follow the money (first rule of business). This means understanding as much as possible. This does not mean we blindly follow a single path – that is not the way of the consultant.
      If one is an Admin for a company, whatever is best for the company (read: good business case + financial stewardship = solid IT for company). Fact is all things being equal I can buy an MS professional for 2/3 the price of a Netware guy and 1/2 as much as a Unix bod (I won’t even bother about Mac OS).
      The reason for the debate is why should someone spend a bucket load of money and time for a NEW OS with NEW bugs and NEW features that will take 10x the implementation time in after shocks to settle down.
      If I was responsible (read: CIO/IS Manager) of a business with 1000s of nodes I would want something that could be rolled out, supported and upgraded with two conditions: 1. Don’t Spend alot of $ and 2. Make it easy and smooth. (in order of preference).
      If anyone thinks they can say “Patches, we don’t need no stinkin Patches” – they deserve to be booted out of IT.
      My experience tells me: Sofwtare companies don’t fix problems they patch them.
      Fact is: MS has done alot for the industry (and me personally) by bringing IT out into the open. Let us not forget IPX/SPX was based on (and I have never seen Novell doco to credit)XNS and also that Novell abandoned IPX only recently to join the world with TCP/IP (and I won’t even credit the wrapping up IPX/SPX into UDP packets as a protocol).
      I had to support these environments – it can be painful.
      Alas, I digress.
      Thank you for your time.

    • #3382096

      What is it you want?

      by garryallen ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I don’t make a lot of money from Novell, at least not directly. Most of my clients who have Novell Servers have almost forgotten that they have them. They practically never go down and they certainly don’t generate a lot of service revenue. I have never had a client request a Novell Server – I’ve had to SELL every d*mn one of them. On the other hand, I’m very popular with my clients and between us we can generally find other (more interesting) ways for me to make money than servicing flakey systems.
      If you have been doing this for very long, you surely must have noticed that change and a constant need for learning is inevitable in this business. Novell 6 is not Novell 3, XP is not NT, GUI apps are not DOS apps, etc. Try thinking of the Linux/Novell thing as Novell getting a new kernel. My guess is that on the level that you normally have to deal with, there will be much that is familiar.
      I’ve been doing this long enough (25 yr) that I must confess it gets a little harder each time to contemplate the effort of ‘starting over’ but I’m actually hoping that Novell makes a big success of this venture.

    • #3381931

      Good riddance.

      by davwatson ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I had the pain of dealing with NetWare 5 for 8 months, what a P.O.S. But what else is guy thinking of doing besides following the money? What is he thinking he has a long term career in the U.S. with something? If you are still making the payments on the BMW keep following the money, you know what happens to people who don’t.

      • #3381924

        Good reply

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Good riddance.

        I think the scary part is (judging by your domain) you are affiliated with the school system and you’re knowledge, or lack thereof, maybe passed onto tomorrow’s youth.

        Do you always take a single experience with the most reliable and easily configued product around and use it to determine tha products effectiveness?

        Do you REALLY think Novell is going somewhere, even though they are showing positive growth now?

        Other than MS, they are one of the ONLY NOS providers with a positive cash flow/surplus, people who KNOW Novell have no problems with it and swear by it’s stability.

        Perhaps an educated opinion would come across a little better next time, not just a frustrated experience.

    • #2729686

      Netware vs Windows?

      by therrington ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Maybe all yo guys that have all the cerifications are missing a point: It’s ALWAYS hard learning something new. I have 3 Novell servers, and 1 Win 2000 server. I have no classroom training, and really no outside help. From my perpective, neither one is particulaly easy to use. Nether is especially “friendly”, and the documentation STINKS for both. I am the sysadmin at a small school. The nearest source of help is 70 min away. I can’t call, as they don’t do phone support.
      I will say that I rarely have an outage on any of my Novell boxes. My advice is to suck it up and bite the bullet, and learn something new

    • #2729676

      Novell Linux and future of Netware

      by mill3502 ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Novell isn’t dead and never will be dead. But I believe you have to watch just how much you become a jack of all trades and an expert at none. Even if you decide to specialize in a peticular manufacture of server operating system it is always best to know them all a “little” because there is no such thing (outside of governments) as a single OP SYSTEM in your shop.

    • #2729553

      Paradigm shift needed

      by johnatakis ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I guess I am coming from the other viewpoint, thus a different “Paradigm” I am certified as a MCSE with Microsoft and have been supporting Microsoft since 98. I am also Novell certified with a couple MCNEs. I have been doing Novell since 91.

      I needed to learn Microsoft because that is the number one client to Novell. I did more Microsoft work because for every 300 machines I had one Novell server and 299 Microsoft machines. I now help support a network with a directory just shy of 100,000 objects. We have over 5,000 Microsoft machines and just 30 Novell servers. Even though I am hired as a Novell Engineer on the Novell network, I still have to know and understand Microsoft because much more than half of my time is dealing with Microsoft problems on the network.

      So now Novell gives me another choice to sit my best of breed services on. GroupWise, NetMail, iFolder, iPrint, eDir, HTML, LDAP, security and don’t let me forget File services. So what if they don’t sit on a DOS machine with NetWare on it any more. I am not using NetWare, I am using the services. Let them sit on a Linux box; let them sit on a Microsoft box. Just don’t take away my Novell services or the quality and ease of use. I still have to support the Microsoft machines anyway.

      I am looking forward to what Novell has to offer.


    • #2729550

      A few doubts..

      by dherde ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I have a Novell shop and am currently actively fighting to keep my workstations from going to XP. We had an “XP, Novell, AS/400” trial that bombed so miserably that I dare not put XP on the desktop. Now heres the rub.. Although Novell has acquired ximian, and I am hearing good things about that, I have not been able to ferret out what the advantage is for my organization. A novell server on Linux is a great thing, but…

      What I need is a solution for the desktop. Ximian is supposed to be able to provide that, But I still cannot see (And have not been able to get answers) how the linux desktop will:
      1- map drives so that my users are not too lost in the sea of /dev.
      2- Utilize the Novell scripting

      There is a learning curve that I have to go through and it is very hard to ramp up without some help. (Book or close by and non expensive.)
      I have not been able to bring up a Ximian/Redhat desktop that will get to my Novell servers and work with the files there. (Mostly MS based)

      I would rather have the novell alternative because I do not want to dive into windows server heck. As well, I do not have the staff to support Microsofts problematic software. (I think this is a safe statement.)

    • #2729540

      Don’t close doors of opportunity.

      by raiderx ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I work as a Process Technician for a Global Mfg. Co. and wear multiple hats. ST has control of the global network but administration of our local plant control network has fallen to me. We replaced our plant vax system used for data collection with RH linux several years ago just before I started with the company.

      When the rash of worms began last september our systems technology group dropped the ball and the worm invaded our local process control network running on NT4 boxes. The SCADA system took a serious hit that we spent many hours fixing.

      To make a long story short, I had started studying linux when I discovered we had it in limited use at the plant. When the worm hit, I grabbed an old PC and setup a bridge firewall using linux for 60$ US.

      That single act which I was able to do because I knew linux in addition to MS has earned me a promotion because I am the only local employee proficient in linux.

      What I’m trying to say is you never know what doors lie ahead. Don’t exclude yourself due to MS loyalty or any other reason. Be prepared!

    • #2729450

      RE: Novell Linux and future of Netware

      by john jakus ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      NetWare is not going away. It is evolving. You can look at NetWare in two ways. NetWare the Kernel and NetWare the suite of Services.

      NetWare the Kernel is just the Kernel. It may be replaced by Linux. As of NetWare 7, you will have your choice to run on the NetWare Kernel or Linux Kernel. The Kernel is not what makes NetWare the excellent OS it is. It’s the Services that sit on top of the Kernal.

      Think about it. What makes NetWare so powerful:

      File System
      -File Rights are powerful yet simple
      -Salvage (can’t forget that nice tool)
      Print Services
      -Best meta directory on the market
      -iFolder – Internet synching for desktops
      -NetStorage – Remote access via file server
      -Virtual Office
      Netdrive – VPN type solution
      DHCP – uses eDirectory instead of text files
      DNS – uses eDirectory insead of text files
      Cluster Services

      NetWare services are easy to manage. They are scalable, stable and secure.

      Now look Novell is porting all this to Linux. They are not killing any of these NetWare services.

      NetWare on Linux will have:

      NetWare Filesystem
      Virtual Office
      Cluster Services

      With the Linux Kernal you will also have:

      Support of the open source community
      -A new bunch of appications

      So if you really look at it, NetWare is not dead but evolving into a more power Operating System. The Linux Kernel is growing rapidly in the industry and Novell has some of the best technologies to enhance it.

      When the world moves to Linux they will see NetWare as a must have to run their corporations.


    • #2729289

      Fit for use should surely be the decider

      by antbtm ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I would have thought as a consultant you would be looking at the services provided by the NOS and not the effort in retooling your organisation. If the business that you are working with requires the services offered by product “x” then this should be the provided solution. I understand as a dealer there are certain pressures to streamline the technical support for a product you supply, but don’t cut your self short on product selection. There are already a number of suppliers of MS solutions, maybe Novell/Linux provides a niche market to work with.

      MTC worth.

    • #2730234

      Netware demise

      by facciamerde ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      Companies that had netware 3.1 have switched to Windows 2000, rather than upgrade to netware 5 or 6, because it is more user friendly. Netware is going the way of Banyon Vines.

      • #2730193

        Nice dream

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Netware demise

        It is time for a reailty check though. You mentioned that “Companies that had netware 3.1 have switched to Windows 2000, rather than upgrade to netware 5 or 6, because it is more user friendly.” I have upgraded two Netware 3.1 networks to 5.1 and 6.5 another from 4.11 to Novell Linux with XD@ desktops.

        I would say that this itself renders your statement untrue as it is generalized and not specific to a couple of instances YOU’VE seen.

        In no way was MS easier or more user friendly in these incidents, in fact the learning curve for MS was greater than the NW upgrades in these cases. Then again, users weren’t Windoze junkies that love Webshots and Incredimail but actual savvy users who understand the advantages and don’t have a learning curve to conquer.

      • #2730192

        Missed a point’

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Netware demise

        “Netware is going the way of Banyon Vines.”

        Can you show me some market stats or any report that shows NW growth is down over last year, the year before etc.?

        They have shown positive growth year after year and have exceeded thier market predictions many times over the last three years. They are one of the ONLY software companies outside MS that has shown a surplus cqsh flow in the millions last quarter.

        Is your statement just an unqualified assumption or is this due to something you’ve seen or heard ?

    • #2730496

      Netware facts

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Novell Linux and future of Netware

      I found an older text on Voice and Data Networking that I used in school, it shows comparissons between the older NT server and Netware 5 (both of which have improved over time)
      But lets look at the underlying fact behind these NOS’s and see just who is the pioneer and leader of Network operating Systems.

      Netware 5 introduced the use of pure IP, in the sense that it doesn’t require IPX or NetBIOS encapsulation.

      Netware in 1998 had over 80 million users worldwide.
      This brought the market share for Netware users (at that time) to 38% which was more then DOUBLE that of the Windows NT server market which was only 16 percent.

      Netware was optimized to run for small companies up to a large enterprises with global networking needs. Windows NT on the other hand was a desktop OS that was stretched into an applicatio server. Windows NT, like Unix or Linux is an excellent application server and works well in THAT network space. However NT was NOT developed to do networking, therefore it didn’t deliver on global and centralized management nor on reliable, scalabe or high-performance Web, file, print and securityservices that is needed today.

      Now these figures and statements are a few years old now, but given the fact that BOTH of these providers have improved, who can possibly say that Novell and Netware are no longer the best solution for global networking, security and performance?

      Did MS actually surpass NW’s technology, not even close. Has MS had even a tiny bit of the success security wise as Novell, not even close.
      Will MSs ever knock NW off the market shelf, not even close.

      Novell was the leader, is the leader and will be the leader bottom line.

      • #2728879

        A Few Words

        by itctonguy ·

        In reply to Netware facts

        Ok, I know I’m probably going to regret jumping in here, since it’s always the messenger that gets shot, but here goes anyway. This guy wrote in here to ask a question about the future, and even though we can’t learn about the future without learning the past, that still doesn’t mean we should dwell in it. I understand your statistics are a valid point, but I’m not sure they’re relevant to the question. In fact, I don’t think half of these postings are relevant to the posed question. This is a lot of passionate, heated debate/argument/rivalry that does not seem to me to be of much assistance to this person. I can understand that the way to help him see whether he should stick out or change is based on the potential of these NOSes and their choices, but as you said yourself both OSs have changed much since those versions. Besides, just because Novell started out ahead and ‘pioneered’ or ‘lead’ the NOS technology movement does not mean it will always be the leader in the market. I think there is a place for arguing things such as which NOS is the best? etc. etc., that’s why I created the NOS debate discussion. I do think, however, that it is kind of a mute subject because arguing which NOS is the best is like arguing which religion is the best…when it all boils down, we all have opinions, and they will always come shining through. Our passion for ‘our product’ will always shine through and at least *somewhat* bias our approach, not to mention our exposure to ALL product lines is never going to be equal. I don’t imagine you’ve beta (or otherwise) tested the complete NEW M$ product line thoroughly, have you?

        • #2728816

          Goes without saying

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A Few Words

          We’ve had the NOS comparisson discussions so many times here it isn’t funny. As I commented to another poster looking for answers, you will get very personal and heated answers here, welcome to TR.

          you said yourself, the future can’t be predicted. It is therefore impossible to offer a futuristic perspective that neither Novell, Linux or MS can predict.

          I am actually sitting in the most boring seminar right now while some guy prattles on about the new MS CRM offering, that barely offers the features inherent in GroupWise collaboration for the last three years. This will be MS’s NeW and Improved (and first real) CRM solution, slated for release sround August. Thank god for wireless hotspots, Keys are clicking all over the boardroom as everyone is bored with the whole ‘been done before’ concept.

          If this is an example of MS improved products, they have some serious catching up to do.

          I just had lunch with the editor who wrote Linux for Dummies and she is writing a report on the seminar. All her interviews have been “I can’t believe I wasted a day here to see old technology finally deployed vy MS” and this is coming from MS
          certified engineers working for the government here.

          I got to helijet here so it was fun on a sunny day, but this sucks.

          I hve tested and worked on much of the enw MS software as a friend is a MS engineer and he runs a mixed MS/Novell linux shop. MS can’t handle the simultaneous logins, suthentications that the Novell servers do and he has demoted his MS servers to Application servers and SPAM servers as his users have too many issues with th MS servers.

          What you seem to be overlooking is that with no predictive numbers available, the best you will get is mixed and contradictory answers from those that use the systems and what thier experiences are, that’s all you can expect.

          I’m sorry for not replying to your discussion but it’s getting old, just like the Win2K vs XP debate.

          if it bothers you, you are under no obligation to read on, or explore a discussion that you don’t feel ansers the posters question.

          I did notice that you didn’t offer any solid answers for him either though, in fact you didn’t even address anything to do with it, including just personal opinion or experience.


          If we are talking NOS market share, MS is not looking so good now. Russian businesses refuse to deal with MS because they don’t want to support a US company. Two major Russian cities have recently depoyed Linux and Netware Linux for Desktops to avoid US spending, being open source, various government applications are being offered for free to other Linux shops in Russia. Germany is right behind as is Spain.

          I BC, I see an sverage of 6 NW or Linux servers to every 1 or 2 MS servers people can’t stand MS here.

          So while the market and future of the US based company looks strong in the US, they are suffering elsewhere. Russia turned down MS after thier quote was lowered by tens of thousands to match the Linux offering, not only did they not get the deal, the city has launched a class action suit for price gouging.

          Good in the states, not so welcome elsewhere.

        • #2669700

          We are forgetting the important part

          by xanderx ·

          In reply to Goes without saying

          The discussions are all good and well but I think most of us are forgetting the important part. We all have undertrained users who have to use and access the services we provide them with. I have had a few fall-outs with MS staff over support related issues but I have to admit that trying to train an end user with limited knowledge in “any” form of other operating system is as close to futile as it gets. If you take this into account that leaves the workstation portion in MS. However it has been my experience at my site that the following works the best :
          Novell for logins, mail, storage and LDAP from the tree.
          Unix based systems for DHCP, DNS, Mail Gateways and FTP
          MS Server for all the products that cannot run on other OS’s. It is however not advisable to mix Novell clients with Microsoft Clients.

          This is my take on the issue from an objective point of view. I will stick to this because it works for me and my priorities are not necesarily to make my life easier but provide the best possible service for my end user as they are the people who matter no matter how infuriating they are sometimes.

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