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Oz - aka Linux Guru

By secure_lockdown ·
Oz - in all honesty, do you really see Linux taking off to the same extent as what the actual Linux vendors (Novell, IBM, and Co.) are predicting/hoping?

If you are, can you post reasons and proof as to why you see that will happen?

I origianlly got sold on Linux thing when Novell were agressively pushing it a year ago - I was planning on getting all the LPI certs and the CLP and focus on their new product lines. But have since changed my mind because I am not seeing in the "real world" what the vendors are hypeing.

...

Let the discussions begin,
SL

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That's not a discussion

by Oz_Media In reply to Oz - aka Linux Guru

It's just a hideous atempt to drag out a point that is regionally applicable and one that you insist must be that way around the world as it applies to your area.

First of all,I am NOT a linux lover at all. I have never said anything of the sort in fact, not even hinted towards it. Again you are being conclusive and assumptive, just as your 4 year old market research showed.

Secondly, I don't USE linux myself other than a workstation for remote desktop/server support, although I have managed quite a few sites making the switch to the more stable and secure Novell Ximian. ALL of the users have commented on how they thought it would be a major hurdle but were pleasantly surprised to see that Suse was VERY similar to the Windoze environment they were used to.

Employers see a great value in the switch, hardware is less finicky than with XP, as the HCL isn't a tome needing a group to decipher. The roll out cost per desktop is FAR FAR lower than installing MS Windoze and MS Office etc. Suse runs about $100.00 CDN per desktop and includes MANY MS compatible titles, such as open office, the email system is more stable and a far lower cost to install and maintain as onsite support is reduced.

This comes from first hand, on-site experience.

Now, you insist that employers don't CARE how much IT costs??

Now I can't fathom such a business practice myself but then again as in all IT, I am sure it is area dependant.

From personal experience AND what I read here, this is definitely NOT the mindset of most (successful) companies.

But hey, like you said, Novell is a sinking ship of the past with no future in IT because nobody wants it anymore and they don't hold a reasonable marketshare to remain a player. (even though from what I understand thay still hold the number 2 slot for NOS installs globally).

And lastly, you live somewhere where companies are not concerned about IT costs, I suppose no outsourcing in your state either.

If I was you I would remain quiet about such things, you will have a maassiveinflux of IT staff moving there if this is so.

Were you trying to make a point somewhere along the line?

I would be interested in seeing a peer vote to determine just how many people feel thet the company isn't concerned about IT costs. From what I read here, this is a bigger concern in the US than I have even seen here.

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costs...

by secure_lockdown In reply to That's not a discussion

...

also - your CPS of $100 per station for SuSE Pro is a lot higher than my CPS for MS WinXP and Office. So once again, cost aren't the be all and end all. Where to you see it picking up for Linux.

also - i renamed the original thread title. just needed to get your attention.

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Sure

by Oz_Media In reply to costs...

You renamed a title to catch my attention?
Is this now a Yahoo chat room or something?

First of all,please show me a post, any post, where I have indicated in ANY way that I am a Linux guru. I never said as much, it is just another one of your unqualified assertions.

NOw Idon't know how many thousand licences your company is buying but I am speaking of an over the counter cost of product, for even a single user. Obviously, MS licencing for Office AND an OS is going to be a higher per user cost than Suse, you are the first I have ever seen that feels MS licencing is even comparable to other vendors, yet alone cheaper.

So YOU live in an area where Novell is seen as dead, IT costs are irrelevant and MS Windoze WITH MS Office costs less than $100.00 CDN per desktop! Where are the flying monkeys?

I would suffest keeping VERY quiet about it, you will be infested with people moving there like the Yukon gold rush.

I don't care where you live, the per user licencing for MS products has never been lower than open source. If you are talking a national or government contract with thousands of users, then Suse would also be far less expensive.

Lets look at the retail end user costs, XP Professional = $499.00

MS Office 2003 full = $649.00

(taken from a competitive retailer's website)

So somehow, volume licencing reduces the MS cost from over $1100.00 CDA to less than $100.00 CDA?

Given THAT theory, Suse retailing at $99.00 would comparitively cost far less.

No wonder your company doesn't give a damn about the IT costs, it hardly represents the masses though.

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my posts edited..

by secure_lockdown In reply to Sure

as per your suggestion.

you are talking about book price. no one pays full book price for MS licenses!! do they? I have always paid heavily discounted rate.

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Then Microsoft is still gouging OEMs and the general public?

by David Mohring In reply to my posts edited..

From FUD over FACTS
http://itheresies.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_itheresies_archive.html
"In a lot of ways, both sides campaigns are mirrored by Microsoft's unabated campaign of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt ( commonly referred to in the information technology sector by the acronym FUD ). Microsoft's advocates probably consider the use of the same strategy by both Democrats and Republicans a green light to continue to spread FUD, despite the evidence which contradicts the claims, including Microsoft's own internal research. Any forum attached to an article that even hints at Linux being used on the desktop results in a similar barrage of FUD that is familiar in form to that spouted by the political camp followers. Microsoft's advocates claim the same thing happens whenever Microsoft's record of security is mentioned."

The above linked blog has all the links required to back up the facts.

By the way. I have deployed Linux in the server room since 1997, on the desktop since 2001 and "This Daniel Boone business is about played out.". The current generation of Linux distributions from Novell/Suse,Xandros,Mandrake and the upcoming releases from Redhat, are far easier to manage for both servers and desktops.

The Linux desktops do everything required by 85% of the employees and integrating the remaining Win2k and MacOSXs with the backend Linux SAMBA services is not that difficult. Day to day IT management is a breeze.

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Interesting find

by Oz_Media In reply to Then Microsoft is still g ...

I don't visit Linux forums myself and I am not, as previously suggested, a Linux Guru by any means. I have just worked with Novell products for a few years.

One thing that I don't buy though is the reference that the FUD factor is an IT term! I laughed out loud as i read it, man these guys will take credit for ANY acronym!!

FUD Fear Uncertainty and Doubt is a sales term I learned nearly 20 years ago as it applied ot customer objections being due to F.U.D. When a sales rep has not properly qualified, presented and trial closed a prospect the perospect may say they are not interested,this USUALLY does not mean they are not interested but are suffering from Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

This term was coined long before computers or IT depsrtments were a thing of reality. In fact I taught the Dale Carnegie sales course some years back and the term is used in the book How to Win Friends and Influence People, written in 1936.

The rest of your post stands the test of time though. Novell has ALWAYS built a better NOS, the main reason MS market share is so high is due to MS Office sales attributing for over 65% of sales. At one time, nothing BUT the MS OS was compatible with MS Office ,with Open Office now being about 85% MS Office compliant, things are looking very differnt now. THe only issue I have seen that Open Office doesn't work with seamlessly is Excell Macro's, yet they are still only on version one. This will change very quickly. With MAJOR server manufacturers (IBM, HP/Compaq) providing so much R&amp suport with Novell, the market will change on the NOS even if it takes a while to catch on in the Open Office respect, which in my experience is just as good as MS Office...but free.

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FUD & FAB

by dafe2 In reply to Interesting find

Two things:

FUD was coined by IBM in the 50's. They would use this technique against any competitor trying to gain entry into their accounts

Features advantages & benefits or FAB of MS products are clear. No CIO in his right mind would ever consider using LINUX or Open Office. Some of these places have 10 or 15 Million invested. Many Federal Gov installations still maintain Banyan Vines & OS/2 simply because the installation is stable and the cost to great to move onto to something else.

Linux will find a home in SOME network devices in the 'major leagues' but that's about it. Primarily, we've used some HP servers in our firewalling as I'm sure others have as well.

The cost of these products Linux & Open Office, looking at TCO, is about 10 times that of an MS based installation. (Gartner study July 2004).

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Unbending the Truth:Things Microsoft Hopes You Won't Notice

by David Mohring In reply to FUD & FAB

Millions invested in what? NT, Win9X and Win2k?
Transition to XP or even Longhorn on the desktop is going to cost any organization major blowout on hardware upgrades alone.

Recently Microsoft has been challenging the suitability of Linux for the enterprise, bending the truth quite a bit to make it fit their view of the world. This site is dedicated to unbending the truth and setting the record straight. Take the time to explore the facts, and you'll understand why Microsoft is challenging Linux, and why Linux is often a better choice than Windows for satisfying the business needs of enterprises.

http://www.novell.com/linux/truth/index.html

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FUD was coined long before the 50's

by Oz_Media In reply to Interesting find

As I said, it is used as a sales rebuttal technique in a text written in 1936. If IBM adopted it that's fine and dandy, most people had by then.

One more time, it is a sales technique described in detail in a 1936 text, and it was probably not a new concept then either. However, it is described as FUDD, Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt and Disillusion.

IBM can not possibly be credited with coining a phrase, 14 years after I have seen it used in print.

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Not So

by dafe2 In reply to Then Microsoft is still g ...

FUD works both ways.

"I have deployed Linux in the server room since 1997, on the desktop since 2001"

That may have worked in your case, but the fact remains that this approach does NOT save money. (Gartner July 2004) In most cases TCO is actually 10 times more than a comparable MS Infrastructure.

Linux servers and embeded systems, in major infrastructure, will generally find a home as (Non Critical) network devices.

As far as the desktop, many users continue to have a hard time with a simple double click.

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