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  • #2271433

    Phone systems comparisons


    by naughtymonkey ·

    My company is accepting quotes for phone systems. If anyone has any feedback on their experiences with different systems, it would be greatly appreciated.

    We currently have a 20 year old Comdial system and have received quotes for Avaya, Cisco, Toshiba, and are waiting on a quote for Samsung.

    Management interface is very important to me and ability to interface with Domino would be wonderful. Have not found any so far that interface with Domino but the Avaya system we can write a program to do so.

    Please let your hatred for any products come out now with the reasons.

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    • #2587227

      There is no comparison

      by phamlin ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      You’re comparing apples and oranges there Monk. Throw out Toshiba and Samsung like you would a Yugo to a Corvette. Avaya and Cisco are the top two contendors. Avaya rules the roost when it comes to feature functionality and reliability. Upper Management is not going to care about how much you saved when the fans aren’t spinning and the lights quit flashing. They’re expecting dial tone 24x7x365. You are not going to get that or the integration with Lotus through the others.

      • #2587210

        Tried Nortel?

        by s.farmer ·

        In reply to There is no comparison

        We replaced an aging AT&T Merlin system about 7 years ago with a Nortel BCM system. System has performed well for us, with no problems. Scalable system capable of VOIP, unified messaging, phone trees; etc.

        • #2596262

          I have Nortel and do not recommend them

          by karl ·

          In reply to Tried Nortel?

          I have two BCMs, 50 and 1000, the 1000 since 2001. I really like the switches, and my local dealer is good, but Nortel is awful. Their programming is very rough. The software updates have taken 3-5 hours to do. Poor service from Nortel. I do not recommend them.

        • #2603390

          But they lead teh industry,

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I have Nortel and do not recommend them

          Always have and probably always will.

          The BCM 2.5 initially had some really sad software issues, but Cisco couldn’t even get the rigt phones ot ring at that time.

          Support? YOu obviously aren’t calling the right people, You get an engineer on the phone by DID and they will take care of just about anything. Software updates, just have them sent to you, Nortel sends out disks to all companies who DIDN’T BUY FROM A CHEAP GREY MARKET RESELLER, automatically.

          Problem is, most people find a local dealer with Nortel on thier card and assume they are NOrtel Authorized, check Autthorized dealers on Nortel website, then you will get service and updates you need.

      • #2596391


        by naughtymonkey ·

        In reply to There is no comparison

        I just want to go with the Avaya. It has the greatest flexibility, reputation, and can launch an executable when it screen pops so we can code an app to launch Notes and bring up account info. Higher end Avaya systems support Notes, but that would be twice as much. Unfortunately, management is trying to be cheap. All I can do is tell them what I think and any experiences I get here. If they go with crap and it breaks, it deserves an “I told you so”.

        • #2596249

          I would go Avaya

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Personally…

          Stable and scalable.

          I have implemented a large number of Avaya systems and love them. Easy to use, easy to administer, easy to deploy.

          That all said, we all have a favourite. To me, the best thing about the Avaya family is that upgrading is dead easy.

          Frankly, the ROI on the Avaya is easy to prove and support. It is simply a good, scalable system- with the usual caveats about what you specifically purchase.

          Good luck to you!

        • #2603388

          Tig, you’ve lost it!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I would go Avaya

          I am getting tored of all these IT peoeple thinking Cisco and Avaya make good product (I will place Avaya over Cisco), but these aren’t telecom companies. They are copiers, WHO do they copy?

          Nitsuko (now owned by NEC), Nortel, and Mitel.

          Upgrading is dead easy, ROI is great, yes it’s an IT department’s dream as they are forced to think of such issues. A GOOD telecom system buut by far not the best. YOu will get better value for money and ROI from NEC’s NEAX line, YOu will get a better QUALITY product from Nortel. ROI and TCO are still there, but the quality and performance, latency control is second to none.

        • #2604302


          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Tig, you’ve lost it!

          Have never heard of Nitsuko. I’ll check them out.

          Nortel has been tough to support in my area. Just not nearly enough qualified folks and the ones that ARE out there get snapped up in a hurry.

          In the end, the system is rarely the sticking point. The support is. For companies that want their own Telco folk on-site, support is an element of the business requirement.

          It would be great to see more serious contenders in the market. Especially in the VoIP space. It seems that the “only” player is Cisco, and that is not, in my opinion, always the best choice.

        • #2602334

          Nitsuko = NEC

          by neal.cleaver ·

          In reply to Interesting

          Nitsuko built low end key systems. They were bought by NEC America several years ago. NEC has 2 divisions. One that makes very large PBX systems and the former Nitsuko line that made low end systems. Over the years, one grew down and the other grew up to the point that their lines overlapped and competed a little. The NEC VoIP lines were just coming out a few years ago when I had factory traning. My experience with the NEC legacy systems and with their support sservices were all favorable.

        • #2603608

          Have you looked at Interactive Intelligence?

          by rodfrancisco ·

          In reply to Personally…

          They have all the bells and whistles 😉

      • #2603624

        There is a comparison

        by mis ·

        In reply to There is no comparison

        I have Toshiba in all 5 of my offices and they are linked and work great. I took out Avaya because of all their problems. So I do think Toshiba is worth a look.

        • #2603579

          You Should look into NEC Aspire

          by petero_777 ·

          In reply to There is a comparison

          It’s a much cheaper system then Shoretell or Avaya. Functionality is almost the same. Easy to use and manage. We saved almost 10k from any other system that I looked at. Just make sure that you would get Aspire Mail DMS for voice mail.

        • #2603385

          NEC Aspire/Elite, nice entry level product

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You Should look into NEC Aspire

          Scaleable, affordable, robust and yet reliable, and a great ROI.

          The NEX line is a little more in tune with medium to large business though, NEC’s Elite KSU’s and PBX’s just come up short in larger applications.

      • #2603392

        Give your head a shake and get a clue.

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to There is no comparison

        Avaya? Functionality? The LACK of working features was close to initially sinking them. I have removed more Avaya and Cisco sytems to be replaced with actual telecom equipment than I can count. Good sales reps, sad product.

        Cisco, not a chance. Great routers, pathetic telecom, again, run screaming.

        However, most IT guys rant and rave about Avaya and Cisco because they were good at targeting th IT sector and making believers out of techs, just like Microsnot did with the MCSE BS they used to tout around town. They are still the most popular (probably due to the saturation of techs trained to bow faithfully to MS and discount anything else) but certainly have a long way to go before they compete with real NOS’s.

        Mitel, Avaya, they are new kids on the block, no experience, no quality and have the most issues.

        Give your head a shake and learn the industry before claiming such tripe.

        Edit: In reference to newer companies entering business telecom, Mitel should be replaced with Cisco. Mitel has been around ages!

        • #2603368

          What are you SMOKING?

          by phamlin ·

          In reply to Give your head a shake and get a clue.

          Avaya? New? It may be a new-ish name, but they’ve been in the business longer than anybody!!!

          Put DOWN the bong and pick up some serious reading material!

        • #2587791

          A long time? Not

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to What are you SMOKING?

          Avaya, formerly Lucent, was established in 2000. While Lucent (Bell) did allow AVAYA to continue carrying SOME of thier ancient models, Avaya VoIP and Privtate Branch Exchange technology is brand new. Unless you under 30 and everything seems old to you.
          Lucent has been around a while, obviously Bell has, but when the Avaya spin-off came to pass there was little technology retained. Most was brought on by Avay’s reach to offer cutting edge technology, they simply bought a bunch of IT related companies and decided to try and set teh stage for ‘modern telecom’, which anyone IN telecom knows was a complete laugh.

          Compared to Nortel, and NEC/Nitsuko, Avaya is a wee baby, not even out of diapers, just like Cisco (with telecom).

          Nortel and Nitsuko(now NEC), each have nearly 100 years of business telecom design and installations. \

          Avaya old???


          But I did make one mistake, I listed Mitel as new but meant Cisco. YES, CISCO is brand new to telecom, when compared to the real companies with decades upon decades or R&D, product refinement and industry/business study to determine what helps business and what is simply an unusable feature.

      • #2587679

        Amen and Amen

        by al k ·

        In reply to There is no comparison

        This is totally on the beam. Stick with Avaya and use Cisco as your fallback. Once that part is done shop your system to a number of vendors. I went with Xeta and was totally satisfied. Not that there weren’t a few hiccups, But they made them right and have offered over the top service.

    • #2603661

      Nortel Norstar

      by kbulleman ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      I’m a phone tech and have been installing Norstar since 1992, check out the Norstar MICS, with T7316 or T7208 phones and it can be expanded if needed, If you need a voicemail check out the Callpilot 100/150 it can be hook into your network for easy programing from any computer thru explorer, system is very user friendly.

    • #2603633


      by rpruett ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      I have been managing a ShoreTel system for close to four years now. As with any system it has its good and bad points. We were sold on it by the ease of managment and Exchange integration (not sure about Domino). It will send your voicemail to email. It will support both analog and IP phones but there is a catch, each analog line used takes away 5 IP phones from the system.
      While it is relativly inexpensive the kick for us was our reseller. They sold managment a three (they tried for five) year monitoring and managment contract. I had to fight with them to ge admin rights to my own system to even add users. We now have full rights and do everything ourselves and it is working wonderfuly.
      Other things to watch out for;
      Cost of the phone
      Extension license
      Mailbox license
      You will either need midspan power or POE switches. You NEED batter backup in the network closet to keep the phones powered during those nasty outages.

      • #2603461

        We too have Shoretel

        by egarnerit ·

        In reply to Shoretel

        We have be running the ShoreTel System for 2 1/2 years and I absolutely love it. We had a Nortel system previously and it was a pain to manage. Even moving a phone was complicated.

        We have been managing system ourselves since we purchased it and have had no significant issues. And the price was significantly less than the big boys.

        IMHO, with ShoreTel you get the most Bang for your Buck.

        • #2603438

          Shoretel for ease of management

          by circle2square ·

          In reply to We too have Shoretel

          I’m working in my second firm with Shoretel and it’s a breeze to manage. Of the systems I considered, this is the most intuitive and attractive interface. It’s very customizable with Follow me/Find me features, and they’ve come out with 1/2-U rack mount units. The servers have been very reliable.

          Call Manager software is a great way to interface with your phone without picking up a handset, which leads me to my one complaint: The handsets are slippery and not terribly ergonomic and their shape means the standard shoulder rest doesn’t stay attached.

        • #2603266


          by shirtbird ·

          In reply to Shoretel for ease of management

          We’ve been using ShoreTel for quite awhile, and have been very pleased. You may want to look into it. Like the above poster said, Exchange integration is awesome, but Notes may be another story.

    • #2603605

      Cisco or Avaya

      by bpate ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Number one don’t let people tell you Cisco doesn’t integrate with Lotus. Stay away from Nortel. Nortel makes a great product, however their product support is terrible. Nortel has downsized so many of their good technicians they can’t adequately support their product. IMHO if you have the money and a Cisco infrastructure you can’t go wrong with Cisco. We have CallManager 4.1.3 and have had excellent uptime and very few problems with it. I have no trouble using the web driven interface for either CallManager or Unity and Cisco’s product support is top notch. I have not been very happy with their LAN switches/wireless/firewall support. Avaya from what I know makes a good product. If I were you I would talk to Meta/Gartner/Forrester the independent technology evaluaters. It will cost a little bit of money, but the headaches they can save you will be worth it. Best thing I can say is get Power over Ethernet switches and get a right-sized UPS for each closet. I also recommend getting a service contract with a vendor who will come out quarterly and test your UPS’s. This will save you alot of time and trouble in the event of a power outage.

      • #2603381

        you can’t go wrong with Cisco – Yes you can

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Cisco or Avaya

        Since CIsco brought out thier fist KSU and VoIP hardware, they’ve had NOTING BUT PROBLEMS. Cisco couldn’t even make the right phones right phones ring for nearly two years.

        Sure they appeal to IT guys, but they don’t stack up in th real telecom industry, which Cisco has no place in yet. THey just don’t build telecom systems and have no experience serving business telecom. It yes, Telecom, they fall short in almost every area….except popularity with IT departments.

        You said it yourself, and it is clear that you base thier merits on thier ability to route networks.

      • #2587676

        Nortel no longers makes the equipment

        by al k ·

        In reply to Cisco or Avaya

        Nortel has farmed out the production of the hardware. That doen’t effect the quality, but sure effects the time it take to deliver the product. They just don’t get just on time production 5 weeks to 3 months seems fine to them. So if you can wait and have strong technical support locally the equipment is good. But, don’t look for fast delivery or on going support.

    • #2603594

      Cisco system

      by kcraycraft ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Depending on your size Cisco is good on branch or small office. One of the most common issues i have seen is the dsp hanging on the router based systems. If you use pri to bring in your lines you will not have the dsp issue. very easy to admin voicemail.
      Placing Fax machines on ATA’s can be hit or miss. I have see sites where it will work and others that will have problems.

      I would stay away from nortel BCM systems. they have issues with voice over ip talking to each other. Option 11 from Nortel i have had no major issues with for 5 year period.

    • #2603577

      Just installed Cisco with Domino

      by sls2655 ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      We have just completed the install of Cisco Unity and Call Manager with Domino. A few minor issues, but overall very positive. We are able to get voicemail in our Lotus Notes email. I would recommend the Cisco solution.

      • #2603376

        Just installed?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Just installed Cisco with Domino

        And yet you say you recommend it?

        Does the secretary have teh best interface and control of calls for your business or was it YOUR need for ROI and knowledge of Cisco routers that got you to bite?

        I have yet to see anyone with a REAL telecom background state that Cisco is either a good business solution or a quality product.

        In 10 years of business telecom, working with a plethora of top quality product lines, I removed more CISCO and AVYA”s to be replaced with Pan, Nortel, NEC and MItel than you can shake a stick at.

        Cisco have clever marketing and targeted a change in business, when IT guys started becoming in control of telecommunications for the company. Unfortunately, most IT guys don’t understand what benefits the business, they are focused on routing and IT hardware, not telecom.
        When there are telecom companies that have specialized in business telecom hardware for 100 years, how can you POSSIBLY pretend that a newbie on the block is gettng it right??

        Bottom line, they don’t, enjoy your Cisco, let me know when you need a real phone system though.

        • #2601945

          Just Installed

          by sls2655 ·

          In reply to Just installed?

          Without knowing any of our business issues, I think your comments are out of line. We had a team evaluate Nortel, Siemens (because that was installed) and Cisco. Cisco was seleted as it was the best option for us. We have been using for 7 months and there has been no disruption to our call center or the switchboard.

        • #2601858

          Not needed

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Just Installed

          I don’t personally need to know your business.
          Cisco failed in most business cases, it’s not that it doesn’t work, it’s just that they only address the most elementary features and really don’t delve into enhancing their operation, as the other players do.

          As for your call center working fine, I am sure it does and I am sure you are happy with Cisco, it still doesn’t mean that you are taking advantage of a better feature set for your business, just one that works for the tasks you already had planned.

          I have worked with literally dozens upon dozens of teams such as you suggested tested your system, and it’s a game. All teh NOrtel reps know Cisco reps, Avaya etc. They all attend the same trade shows, have dinner together between trips, share flights together etc. They discuss customer bids and will even ‘give one up’ as a favour to each other as needed. They all know each others shortcomings and allow them to go uncontested, it’s really a warm competition, where the only people with control over what YOUR company buys are the guys quoting, not the guys buying. Don’t underestimate the sales ability of those earning top salaries. Anyone can make you happy, but can someone make it even better? Offer a better value for money? Yup.

        • #2601412

          Axe to Grind?

          by bpate ·

          In reply to Not needed

          Obviously OZ has an axe to grind. I have installed Cisco as a simple Call Manager Express implementation all the way to full blow IPCC with IVR and ACD. Their system can match the features of Avaya, Nortel, Siemens…etc. They also have fantastic technical support. We have been using Call Manager for several years without any major issues. Most problems I have been having are people spill things on their phone. And don’t let him tell you that Cisco doesn’t scale well. We have well over 50,000 cisco IP phones on a huge network with little or no major system problems.

    • #2603574

      Call Inter-Tel

      by msballew ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      If you are considering Avaya and Cisco…Toshiba and Samsung aren’t in the same league. Compare Inter-Tel (call a company branch, not a dealer) and also compare ShoreTel as well. Look at everything, not just cost.

    • #2603570

      what about Asterisk from Digium?

      by guru ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      from ease of use perspective and the ability to customize, I believe asterisk cannot be ignored…

      • #2603407

        Yes, I’d like to hear about Asterisk too

        by tachyon ·

        In reply to what about Asterisk from Digium?

        I’ve been looking at the system and it seems that it’s nearly infinitely expandable and configurable. It’s inexpensive and has great functionality. But does it work well? Is it hard to setup? Is it reliable? etc.

        Inquiring minds want to know.

    • #2603557

      Avaya is good and stable.

      by narendra.namdev ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      we have implemented a large number of Avaya systems. Easy to use, stable and scalable system.

      All the best!!

    • #2603536

      Lotus Notes/Domino integration

      by naughtymonkey ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Does anyone know of a system that truly integrates with a Notes/Domino environment. We use Domino the way it was meant to be used, as a collaboration platform. We use it for CRM, license management, SCR, sales, accounting, email, and general business functions. Just about any phone system can generate an email, but we would like the functionality of “popping” customer account info when they call. This would be different depending on department; sales info for the sales department, account info for billing, support info for support team. The only one I know capable of this is the enterprise level Avaya systems, but we are a small company and can’t justify the cost of a 1000+ user phone system.

      • #2603349

        How many users do you have?

        by phamlin ·

        In reply to Lotus Notes/Domino integration

        If you’re as sophisticated as you make it sound, it shouldn’t be too tough to justify the ROI on a small sized Avaya Enterprise level server and Modular Messaging which integrates to Lotus Notes/Domino.

        • #2587799

          The price was 10K more

          by naughtymonkey ·

          In reply to How many users do you have?

          we may spend 2K developing our own solution and they have some partners that are testing right now. It may be out by the time we implement or we can make our own. I liked that flexibility with the Avaya system. This is still a small company. When I came here, their desktops couldn’t even run their own software. Now servers and desktops are up to date, but spending money to upgrade the phone system took some work. Management doesn’t like to spend the green stuff, but they want it to work forever.

    • #2603534

      It all depends…

      by dwilcox ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      On the size of the company, how many locations, how many stations, trunks, features required, and features that would be “nice to have”.

      Under 500 stations in one location? Believe it or not, it is usually more cost effective to stick with a non-VOIP solution. Branch out to over 500 stations in more than one location and it requires a detailed cost analysis to determine the most cost effective solution.

      If you had Comdial, your system may not be that large. If so, don’t eliminate the smaller manufacturers out there. As an example, we use Inter-Tel’s Axxess platform. It provides for 2 offices 1600 miles apart. They are seamlessly networked together and use VOIP for networking. We have several users in other states with VOIP phones in their home. We use IVR and screen pop in our call center.

      When doing a cost comparison between various systems a few years ago, we found Avaya was the highest and didn’t want to negotiate. Nortel wanted the job, but didn’t include all the features. Inter-Tel was the lowest cost for the feature set, and provided the most flexibility long term.

      Whatever you decide to go with, make sure you buy the size system you need for the next 5 years up front, including all software and seat licenses, warranty and maintenance. This will get you the best price. And DON’T underestimate on the above items. It will bite you in the end.

      Dios le bendiga.

      • #2603528

        We are staying with digital…

        by naughtymonkey ·

        In reply to It all depends…

        couldn’t justify the cost of VoIP. We have 40 handsets and an office in France with just 2 sales people, so being connected to them is not very important. The needs that we have an be met by almost any platform; voicemail, recording, call reports, flexible configuration, and graphical management. The only thing we can’t seem to do is integrate with Domino, but we can write something to make Avaya work.

        • #2587705

          My 2-cents worth

          by neal.cleaver ·

          In reply to We are staying with digital…

          I have not read all the posts to this so I hope I don’t duplicate anything. I have been been doing network management for SMEs for about 12 years. The network guy has to wear a lot of hats including being telecom guy.

          I have had experience with older Lucent Definity, Merlin, Norstar Meridian, Comdial, NEC and Samsung. I currently manage a Cisco Call Manager VoIP system. The old Definity system was trouble-free but overkill for a company our size. It was very easy to manage but support was very expensive. The Comdial systems were OK but limited and the manufacturer has had some financial problems. I loved the old Norstar systems but have not used any of the newer stuff. I was not impressed with Samsung at all. I put in 3 NEC legacy systems. I was pretty happy with them. We chose them over toshiba but it was a close race. It mainly came down to experience with the vendor.

          The Cisco system has a lot of great features but lacks a few few basics that any legacy key system would include. Management is way more complex too. It is also quite a money pit. The decision to buy it had already been made before I started working for this company. However, VoIP has come a long way even in the 2 years since we installed this. Cisco is moving from a Windows platform to Linux or BSD.

          Overall, I think there are a lot of good systems out there. The old rule is that 80% of the users will only use 20% of the features. I think it is correct. Buy a system with mature software from a stable manufactuer and reseller.

          Over all your satisfaction will depend a lot on the dealer you work with. Good luck.

    • #2603533

      Avoid Inter-Tel

      by jmillerii43 ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Whatever you do, don’t go with Inter-Tel. Their system is unstable, constantly crashes, and their support is horrable. They don’t have any phone support, only onsite, which takes a day or more for someone to come out.

      Siemens isn’t much better… their voicemail would crash and have to be rebooted at least once a week. They were unable to resolve this problem and we ended up going to a different vendor.

      I have heard good things about Nortel, but never had the chance to work with them.

    • #2603393

      Don’t match IT companies into telecom, they just aren’t worth it.

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Avaya, not a phone company, no idea how to keep teh feature set operational.

      Cisco, again, a router company, thier initial releases didn’t handle any useful ‘telecom’ needs and simply offered familiar candy for IT guys with no telecom experience.

      Toshiba, not BAD but resally an entry level product.

      Samsung, bells and whistles, juts try to keep one operational for more than a week.

      With 10 years in business telecom, as an independant and a manufacturer’s rep. there are a few KEY players that you haven’t even begun to see it seems.

      The BEST company used to be Nitsuko, they are serious telecom pioneers, Nitsuko merged with NEC Corporate Networks Group a few years back. NEC.CNG is the place to look now. NEC makes PHENOMINAL systems, PBX, VoIP and Key Systems that are leading in almost every area.

      I have removed more Avaya and Cisco systems than I can count, due to constant issues of them not doing what they propose to do. NEC replacements always calm the client and resolve issues they’ve had with these wannabe IT/telecom companies.

      Of course, Nortel has been making phones for over 100 years and thier systems are ROCK SOLID, they had a few issues with the initial softwrea release in the BDM VoIP platform, but they were resolved with a software update a few years ago.

      Again, always a good replacement for those Avaya’s and Cisco’s that just don’t work as propsed.

      Mitel makes good KEY system, but thier VoIP still leaves much to be desired.

      Panasonic, run screaming, HOWEVER, a cheap Panasonic will outperform and poutlast any Cisco, or Avaya product available.

      Here’s the issue, Telecom companies have been doing this for a hundred years, router manufacturer’s have not.

      Cisco is one of the worst when it comes to performance, ‘doing what it is SUPPOSED to do’, and value for money. How did they make it then???

      IT guys are often placed in charge of telecom now, some even feel they can punch down a bix rack or program the right feature set into a PBX. In 99.9% of installs I’ve seen by IT departents, they are bothced befor ethe boxes are opened. IT guys KNOW that Cisco makes excelllent routing and switching equipment, so they MUST make good VoIP and Key Telephone Systems, but they don’t.

      Don’t fall into that same rut so many others do, buy something that works, something reliable and something that offers a USEFUL feature set for business. Off premise transfers will work, but how about recaptuing that line and serving it elsewhere? Nortel will, NEC wil, Cisco sorta tries to.

      Study telecom, not familiar IT companies and you will get the real picture of who the players are.

      • #2587790

        I am not arguing..

        by naughtymonkey ·

        In reply to Don’t match IT companies into telecom, they just aren’t worth it.

        because I am not a telecom guy, but how do you explain Lucent Technologies and American Bell being where Avaya came from. That puts them being in the telecom industry since 1869.

        • #2580025

          It’s easily confused

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I am not arguing..

          Avaya is a spinoff of those companies, they only retained some VERY old technology and a few key/top selling products in order to stay afloat.

          Clever marketing shows there was a relationship and they appear to be a branch or daughter company of Bell and Lucent. Lucent was a good phone company, they were on par with Nitsuko but Lucent and Avaya are two completely different worlds now. You’d be hard pressed to find a single capacitor in common between Lucent’s key systems and PBX’s and the product Avaya releases.

          Once split-off, Avaya had little to no connection with either of the predecessors, whereas when Nortel split from Bell, they shared R&D, design and proprietary engineering for years. It was a new division, whereas Avaya is simply a runaway kid that found new friends and kept his old name because it was popular.

          Avaya simply went out alone, and formed a completely new company by forming relationships with some large IT focused companies.

          It’s merely a common name and you know how that goes, ‘what’s in a name?’

        • #2580021

          No offense but..

          by naughtymonkey ·

          In reply to It’s easily confused

          They seem to plug a lot about their roots and they talk of how they brought all those years of experience and technology with them. At this point, I am inclined to believe them more than a lone poster that instead of giving his opinion on the subject, decided to basically tell everyone they were idiots for their opinions and experiences. You appear to just think you are the God of all that is telecom and you know better than anyone else.

          No offense, but if you want to be taken seriously, that is not the route to go. I would have valued your opinion if not for the way you needed to overpower everyone else.

          There seems to be a lot of that on TR and it never helps a poster when they ask a question and someone goes off on everyone else. Just some advice.

        • #2580012


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to No offense but..

          TR has been stomping ground for years. People here have grown TR discussions into more of a chat group now, as opposed to the hard debates we used to have.

          Chat is good, but in many cases, what should be said is never said and unqalified opinion runs rampant, as we see in some cases here.

          When I taught Dale Carnegie (many moons ago) one thing that is key to remember is to be qualified before offering facts or trying to educate someone. Opinion is fine, but in the case of business, misleading opinion costs companies money and people lose thier jobs.

          Offering unqualified advice about the most important part of a business operation is detrimental to the person seeking qualified advice, thus I lose patience. It’s nice to be friendly but friends don’t mislead each other based on lack of knowledge.

          No I do not know everything about telecom, but after more than 10 years in ‘business’ telecom,working with several major suppliers and as a consultant, ESPECIALLY while watching Cisco, Avaya, 3-com etc take an initial stab and fail miserably in all areas but BS marketing, It is hard (and plain wrong) to smile at people spewing complete rubbish to someone seeking business advice. Complacency has a place, but it sure as heck isn’t in business decisions.

          Why follow the sheep when they are going the wrong way and leading others with them?

          I don’t post here to gain your appreciation, I don’t post here to make friends. This is a discussion forum, and people’s business decisions often hinge on what is said here.

          I am not seeking your approval and you can believe whomever you choose, that’s the nice thing about freedom and independance.

          Offered without offence and no offence taken.

        • #2579996

          I do agree to a point

          by naughtymonkey ·

          In reply to TR

          I do become involved in discussions where I feel passionate about a subject and I do tend to stress my point sometimes too much. I just feel that it is a waste of an OPs time as well as yours to attack everyone, and then your point is thrown out due to it being from a fanatical “I hate (insert product here)”.
          One post outlining your opinion on your preferred product and what is wrong with the others is more productive.

          I guess if someone has unlimited time to personally abuse every other poster, then so be it but they never accomplish anything but to cause the OP the lean towards the other products essentially working against your self in your promotion of what you feel is a better product.

          Oh well, have a good one.

        • #2579963

          Fair enough

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I do agree to a point

          I completely agree and perhaps some people will see me as flaming them, as opposed to correcting them. But most here know me and are used ot my hard nosed, blunt approach to people.

          I don’t post here much anymroe these days, so there’s not too much to worry about. WHen I do it’s simply because I am bored and there’ snothing nelse online to amuse me at the time.

          When I posted yesterday, I had just finished posting a question and was waiting for a few common peers to get back to me, so I had time to burn. Seeing another misguided and uninformed telecom post just drove me insane.

          Y’all be cool now, hear?!

        • #2579985

          Nortel and Bell Northern Research

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to It’s easily confused

          Having worked at Nortel at the time, I can shed some light on Bell Northen Research.

          BNR was set up to be 51% owned by Bell, 49 % by Northern Telecom, which was itself majority owned by Bell.

          Over the course of time when Nortel wanted to split, and Bell wanted the cash, Bell made the arrangements and all the BNR folks merged into Nortel.

          Bell started buying non-Nortel equipement, and Bell’s competitors started buying Nortel stuff.

          There was a bit of a culture clash. When I started as a desktop tech at Nortel, I wore a jacket and tie, even when I needed to crawl under desks. When I made my first trip to BNR the conference was introduced by a VP wearing a cotton sweater, jeans and sandals.

          There was story of a new facility where they built two towers, one for Nortel, one for BNR. When one of my co-workers went to a conference room on the BNR side, the BNR staff brought out a pair of scissors and threatened to cut his tie off if he didn’t promptly remove it. And this was a director they were threatening.


        • #2601861

          And so much more

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Nortel and Bell Northern Research

          There was a culture shock for sure, not to mention and endless stream of lawsuits, I believe there were over 2000 in progress when I was with the CRTC.

          Since 1986, there were a lot of forced changes too, deregulation caused a stir, as Bell’s roots were ‘technically’ Canadaian so the ownership battle was in full swing. As they could no longer be US held, the issues was that Bell was Canadian and thus could still hold a majority equity share.

          It was fun while it was all astir, but now that things have settled, it seems to have been a lot of hype about nothing.

          Some great planning from Telus, with a harda$$ president (Entwistle) that most couldn’t (and still don’t) understand, has placed them in a position to look at acquiring Bell Canada now.

          When the AGT merger developed into Telus, BCTel (then owned by GTE-US)had to merge to avoid Bell Canada invading the west. The Telus merger was one that allowed them to monopolize the west and Bell simply failed completely at taking over. NOW, Telus is in position to buy Bell and take over business in the east, as Telus in Montreal has shown phenomenal growth in both the residential and business districts.

          Telecom, lots of smoke and mirrors, most public don’t have a clue what they are up to, and many in the industry struggle to keep up.

          But all in all it’s been fun watching them pose and position, while not telling the whole story as it really isn’t a pretty one for the US company’s trying to hang onto A monopoly in Canada.

    • #2603384

      Nortel BCM

      by isa ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Call Livewire Communications @ 423-288-2005.

      • #2580008

        Dangers of using LiveWire for Nortel!

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Nortel BCM

        LiveWire is not an authorized Nortel dealer. They are a grey market reseller, something that Nortel has been trying to stop for a few years now.

        Nortel does not have to warrant your product, service direct from Nortel can be stopped at any time and you are simply stuck. Software updates need to be dug for, you won’t be included in Nortel’s update and free software list.

        LiveWire apparently has a decent reputation as a VoIP installer, but are not authorized to sell teh BCM series. I am sure you are happy with your BCM, though you should get the upgrade that software is a bit outdated now, you should be at 3.5 due to teh security issues and upgrades to dodgy features.

    • #2587662

      Have you looked into softphones?

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      That might fit the bill better as far as integrating with Domino.

      Other than that, I’d recommend Avaya, but get a Cisco gateway. Also make sure that if you are going with a mix of analog and VoIP that your PBX can deal with it.

    • #2580064

      Is ESI worth a look?

      by astewart ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      We’ve not purchased a system yet, but have very similar requirements that you have. Like many other IT guys who are also responsible for our PBX, I wanted to push us toward a pure IP solution. However, we concluded that a pure IP solution is not cost effective, especially since we already have the existing telecom infrastructure. We looked at Avaya, Shoretel, ESI, and Inter-tel.
      Until recently we had not heard of ESI. We had them in for a demo and were quite impressed. Like many other products out there, they offer a hybrid PBX/IP solution, which meets the requirements for a small amount of remote users.
      A few things that impressed us include:
      1) Great all-around price (including call center software)
      2) A true telecom manufacturer
      3) Very intuitive for both the administrator and the user.
      4) Built-in help system AND 45-minute tutorial (very nice!)
      5) Free software upgrades
      6) Adding a new phone doesn’t require an additional seat license or voicemail license.
      7) Voicemail is integrated with the switch. Could be good or bad.

      Our main concerns:
      1) Name recognition. However, large companies are looking at this telecom (ex. very large install for A.G. Edwards). After evaluating this system, name recognition became a smaller concern.

      I have no idea about the integration with Domino … could be a problem … but maybe there’s a work-around like the Avaya. I’d take a good look at ESI.

      • #2596699

        a liitle experience with older ESI

        by neal.cleaver ·

        In reply to Is ESI worth a look?

        I’ve worked with a couple small ESI legacy systems (IVX128). They worked fine. They had a lot of features for the money. My complaint about them was that there was very little programming that could be button punched on them and ESI would only give the management software to the dealer, not the end user.

        • #2604155

          Thanks for the info

          by astewart ·

          In reply to a liitle experience with older ESI

          I appreciate the “heads-up” about these issues with the older ESI systems, as we also continue to research phone systems for our company. Of the two issues you raised, I’m especially interested to know about the management software being available for the end-user. I hope ESI has changed this.
          I’ve e-mailed my ESI vendor to ask how ESI has addressed these two issues. I’ll try to post back with some answers.
          Thanks again!

        • #2598944

          Few Problems …

          by working it ·

          In reply to Thanks for the info

          I have an older verison of ESI sytem (IVX128).

          Here are the few problems I have:
          (1) It is not easy to upgrade. You may need to reprogram the whole system after the upgrade.
          (2) If you dial-in to manage your voicemail, it is not easy to leave a group message. You will need to leave a message to yourself and forward the message to the group.
          (3) System backup. During the backup process, the voicemail system will not be accessible.
          (4) For no reason, the LCD screen of the phone station will be blank. A system restart is needed to fix the problem. Not so often, but it happened to me at least 3 times last year.

          Otherwise, it is a very good system.

        • #2601167

          More info …

          by astewart ·

          In reply to a liitle experience with older ESI

          I just spoke to our ESI vendor, confirming that ESI has addressed these two issues. The ESI system is about 99% programmable via telephone interface. Also, they now make the management software available to the end-user. From what I’ve gathered it seems like ESI takes customer recommendations seriously, when it comes to improvements to their systems.

    • #2601791


      by justin ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      ShoreTel has an amazing suite and nice phones. Great UI for each persons extension on their computer.

      Nortel is good too, Cisco is my least fav.

    • #2601114

      Who’s Who in Telecom Today

      by cmccane ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      It’s strange to see people making statements about Cisco and Avaya being new to telecom. I don’t know what that’s all about except maybe vendors logging on here to promote their goods and bash the competition.

      Cisco, Avaya, and Shoretel are probably the best choices for a phone system today. Out of those three, none are “new” to telecom or to VoIP. Avaya clearly has the advantage from being a PBX vendor for something like 80 years. No company has more PBX experience than Avaya. But Cisco has more VoIP experience than Avaya so the choice of systems isn’t simple.

      Shoretel has more experience with presence technology than either Cisco or Avaya although both Cisco and Avaya have since done more with presence than Shoretel in terms of features and integration with everyone else via SIP.

      Cisco and Avaya have both participated in SIP steering and engineering committees since the beginning. Unfortunately, Shoretel and Nortel originally chose largely proprietary VoIP protocols and continued to defend the practice for too long. Now everyone agrees to SIP.

      As a current CCIE with more than 18 years of telecom experience in both Enterprise and Service Provider businesses, I wouldn’t listen to people who suggest that Cisco and/or Avaya are new to anything in telecom. That’s nonsense. Both Cisco and Avaya have roots in packetized voice that goes back to the ATM days and Avaya predates that with PBX experience going back to the first days of digital telephony. Someone needs to get their facts straight.

      For SMB’s, Shoretel may be the best choice because it’s very easy to implement and manage. Shoretel continues to have business benefits over the other choices due to their unique desktop software for all phone users.

      For Enterprise deployments, the choices come down to Avaya and Cisco. Cisco has better support but Avaya has deeper integration with business processes via Service Oriented Architecture (SOA) message passing connectivity from ERP and CRM software. Cisco continues to have the advantage for companies that have Cisco network infrastructures. Cisco’s IP Communications architecture includes the data network infrastructure. Cisco’s own applications and 3rd party applications have become and advantage as well.

      A vendors absolute commitment to SIP is the minimum requirement for any phone system choice today. The voice world is about to get much more interesting with SIP presence information passing between multiple vendors and application types.

      • #2601084

        LOL, Riiiiiiight! Advice from a VAR???

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Who’s Who in Telecom Today

        I believe the correct term would be R for reseller, not Value Added reseller. It seems that value is simply lost with your knowledge of but a couple of products with which you claim to specialize. I have only about 10 years in the field, as a system designer, consultant, sales engineer, product development manager etc. for about 8 different telecom manufacturers, but working for teh CRTC (Canada’s FCC)I learned the real ins and outs of companies that even mostof thier employees were not informed about; such as BC Tel being owned and operated by GTEUS, which even lifelong BCTel union members did not know.

        I remember when Avaya first LEFT Lucent (‘LEFT’ is the polite term of course) and you only need to be 7 to remember that, not 100. They (a couple of PO’d engineers) were told to go at it alone by Bell and Lucent.

        Lucent/Bell, yes a lot of experience, Avaya’s connection to Lucent? Bought a name and took off ALONE in 2000. They obtained NO proprietary information whatsoever, it was a LONG legal battle, one that took place while I was still a mamber of the CRTC.

        Look through the formal legal documentation, all public information, and learn for yourself exactly how distant Avaya was pushed from their mothership Lucent Business Comm.

        Cisco, a TELEPHONE company? No, not at all. You know that they build routers and they do it VERY well. YES, they were one of the easiest to configure for VoIP and handled QOS better than others,INITIALLY, but half their telephone features didn’t work, kinda useless to most businesses. I removed literally DOZENS of Cisco’s over a couple of years that were sold based on misrepresentation. The companies buying Cisco prepared lawsuits, most of the time settled out of court because they knew there wasn’t leg to stand on. It took nearly two years before they figured out some of the most elementary telephone needs and how to make them work…consisitently. They are STILL being dragged through court daily or settling up quickly today. Most large corporations have several thpousand suits on the go at any time, except in Cisco’s case, they were being lost by the company.

        [b]LUCENT[/b] goes back to the origins of digital voice and IP telephony, but Lucent and Avaya haven’t been related for years now, you should know that but I am sure just forgot the association….again, it’s just a name; two R&D staff and a handful of engineers who were put out to pasture.

        They didn’t retain the same components or imperative, proprietary build information (developed over years in the industry).

        As for the PBX, even though TECHNICALLY we now use variations of what a PBX REALLY is, the first was designed by BELL, not Avaya. Though Lucent and Bell were one, Avaya was just a product name. Avaya as we know them today, have very little relation to Lucent or Bell, especially to suggest they adopted the business experience and R&D. Bell was the actual inventor of the old PBX, and even several upgraded models over time, where you called the operator and asked to be connected, manually by switching power circuits. No we call that same PBX the Telco’s C.O. and we consider our in-house Automated switching systems to be PBX’s, though just a flavour of one becuase they are not technically Key Systems anymore.

        As for your certifcation, experience, I assume it is no different that US world history, somewhat sku’d, while it does touch on truth, much is left to the imagination or warped word of mouth from others train based on word of mouth, not facts.

        sk any MCSE what the best/secure NOS is and you can expect to hear Microsnot, but that’s what they are lead to believe of course.

        Just do some real research and it all makes sense, you are as right as you are wrong though.

        • #2588833

          Absolutely YES, Advice from a VAR….

          by cmccane ·

          In reply to LOL, Riiiiiiight! Advice from a VAR???

          If you are bent out of shape from a bad experience with a Value Added Reseller, well, too bad for you. If you were the decision maker who chose the wrong VAR, that’s your fault.

          It’s a kind of deja vu’ when the mind tends to lump everything together as it tries to over-simplify just to understand.

          As for all VAR’s being the same, how many have you tried? Maybe the wrong ones? Try

          Both Avaya and Cisco use the channel for the vast majority of sales. Cisco claims it has less than 100 direct customers. Everyone else talks to me or one of my competitors. If you had ever been involved with a major IPT rollout, then you would understand that everything comes through the VAR.

          Believe it or not, most of the big IT consultancies are also VAR’s for multiple manufacturers. We’re not into selling one brand of equipment. Our consulting practices are well known for business consulting that is irrespective of any manufacturer.

          I was an employee of Lucent when Avaya was spun off. Avaya retained all intellectual property related to Lucent’s PBX business plus well-developed product lines and sales in the billions. There was no sense that Avaya was being “thrown away” without any intellectual property.

          As a former Lucent employee on the employee stock purchase plan, a certain number of my stock options were converted into Avaya stock. As an Avaya stockholder, I can say that Avaya has been a great success story.

          When AT&T spun off Lucent, Lucent retained Bell Labs. The reputation of Bell Labs is well established. When I worked at Lucent, I interacted with Bell Labs when I patented a communications system – I still have my patent award plaque from Lucent. The rate at which Bell Labs is awarded patents is only challenged by IBM and a handful of Japanese companies.

          Unfortunately, both Lucent (now Alcatel Lucent) and IBM are known for keeping vast stables of patents with which they do little. Several weeks ago Lucent-Alcatel CEO Pat Russo publicly stated that she wished Lucent had not spun off Avaya. At one point Lucent considered buying out Avaya after it had spun them off.

          I’m closing in on my 100th Enterprise IPT deployment. I’ve deployed IPT from 4 different manufacturers. I know the marketplace, the products, and what works. You can suggest any vendor besides the three I’ve named. My shotgun awaits because your suggestion will be full of holes.

          Gartner says to expect to see consolidation in the North American PBX business in the coming 5 years. Survivors will include Avaya, Cisco, and Nortel. Companies likely to abandon the North American market include Siemens, NEC, and Lucent-Alcatel.

        • #2600858

          Tell me all about VAR’s….LOL.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Absolutely YES, Advice from a VAR….

          Firstly, you can’t even begin to tell me about VAR’s, as for having a bad experience, I’ve worked for several VAR’s and have also held thier reps hand during the ‘big sale’ where they call in the manufacturer’s rep (me).

          As a channel account manager for several different manufacturer’s, I have trained and managed VAR accounts all over North America, many who also sold Avaya or Cisco in addition to my product lines. In most cases, the reps were so green they would send in orders for incomplete, poorly configured or completely incorrect product.

          You can’t try and tell me VAR’s are going to have more product info than the manufacturer’s and they CERTAINLY don’t have the same inside knowlege of the industry that is shared between manufacturer’s. How many of your Cisco/Avaya systems have you replaced with Nortel, Mitel, NEC, Toshiba, Panasonic products? None? No kidding?

          That’s because people call someone else when they find out your system falls short.

          When you buy a lemon car you don’t buy another from the same dealer, you trade it in with someone who has a better product(s) to choose from and can solve your problem, not create a new one.

          VAR’s get told what is best to sell, get told useless fluff about competitors and get told what thier cost is (no, all certified dealers DON’T pay the same price). In essence, your company would have been one of my accounts, had I decided to work WITH Cisco. The best a VAR can hope for is enough experience to know the market and pick up enough press info from magazines, trade shows and public information, but that’s it…end of story.

          If you had actually read my post, you’d have picked that up and I’d bother reading and replying to the rest of yours. As it is clear you read very little, if any of it, I will reciprocate and simply comment on your lack of comprehension.

        • #2600855

          Okay I bit

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Absolutely YES, Advice from a VAR….

          But it wasn’t worth the read, you obviously still don’t get it.

          If you had read my first post, you would see that I know just how LITTLE information gets leaked to staff. Did you know how many lawsuits were started simply over the NAME Avaya being used? How about the lawsuits against collecting and sharing of proprietary information? Still nothing? Yup, you were an ’employee’.

          Consulting? That’s an unemployed salesman. Consulting company? That’s a sales team with no sales skill but a bunch of people who think they know the business, yes I sold to many “consultants”, worst clients I had.

          Of course the manufacturers are channel-centric, all telecom manufacturer’s are, they have a hard enough time trying to deal with the few VAR’s, yet alone all the end users too!

          [i]I still have my patent award plaque from Lucent.[/i]
          Okay, well if you can’t see me kneeling, pretend I am.

          And I still have my grade 4 ribbon for the sack race, did you have a point? Do you need a hat to fit it?

          [i]I’ve deployed IPT from 4 different manufacturers. [/i]

          WOW!!! I have ripped out over a dozen poorly configured and improperly sold IPT from at least 6 manufacturer’s, and have ‘deployed’ (cheesy IT name to make a sale sound important) several dozen myself (as a channel account manager we can make that many, many dozens more).
          Again, do you have a point or are you just trying to have a pissing contest without a wiener?

          [i]”You can suggest any vendor besides the three I’ve named. My shotgun awaits because your suggestion will be full of holes. “[/i]

          Yeah, I can see that. LOL. What a maroon! 😀

          Don’t take a knife to a gun fight.

        • #2600630

          Credibility Issue

          by cmccane ·

          In reply to Okay I bit

          I’ve asked for opinions from others and determined that I established my credibility in this thread and you did not. So, after all the frustration, after all the name calling, YOU LOSE!!

        • #2599790

          LOSE? To whom or what?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Credibility Issue

          First of all if you asked people here on TR, Im not surprised. I toe to toe more than I toe the line, who cares?

          As for credibility, you can’t possibly claim superior credibility to someone whom you have never met or spoken with, that’s just stupid to even claim.

          As for winning, I didn’t realize there was a prize, I certainly wouldn’t have wasted time with you if there was TR swag on the line. (no there is no real TR swag, we got mugs a couple of years ago but that’s gone now).

          As for name calling, you kill me, WHAT name calling?

          As for ‘establishing credibility’, don’t make me laugh, this is the internet!

          Most people here know that I’ve lived in the telecom world for a long time now and have worked with some of the largest manufacturer’s out there, that’s why I get emails from peers here asking for help with various systems.

          Believe me, I am not worried about someone else fighting for a chunk of THAT pie!

          But hey, get back into mom’s basement, fire up the kiddie chat rooms and have yourself a blast. I’m sure they’ll all buy into your credibility dreams too. Anyone who actually knows telecom (or any other technology), would laugh at the thought of a VAR giving ‘industry advice’. You know YOUR product, or at least what the rep told you about it,but it’s hardly a testiment to knowing an industry, in fact it’s the opposite. You would naturally hold a single minded and very biased, uninformed opinion. That’s why technology reviews and CREDIBLE opinions are from a non-biased sources, not from a particular products sales rep. Then again, they don’t seem to know any better, do they?

          I know from first hand experience, and from laughing with the competitors that Cisco was trying to topple, that Cisco has miles to go before making a worthwhile telephone system that the real players do not bat an eye. Cisco, yay they managed to route IP, but they just don’t understand business telecom and cal management. Ever seen the Cisco CDAR? Laughing stock! Our local telco beats that junk. Accountants hate the reports, management can’t get accounting to decipher them.
          So what? Who cares about CDAR?
          Business that buy business telephone systems. There’s more to life than placing a call for free, you can pass that onto Cisco too.

          Avaya, managed to suck in many, just as they did you, to beliving they were the same old Avaya from Lucent days. It works on some, I see, but not those who simply know better from experience. That was the hardest part of the breakup, ‘tossing out’, how would Lucent remain separate from Avaya, if Avaya was allowed to keep the name. Won some lawsuits and lost some, so there they are having people such as yourself believing they are one and the same. No wonder Lucent tried to battle it.

          P.S. If you are so savvy, why not even mention Nitsuko?
          They had very stable VoIP before most others did, before they merged of course.

          Nitsuko, can you say Nitsuko? Actually I’d be surprised if you could. (ooops, I suppose that’s what someone like you would call ‘name calling’ right?)
          LOL! Duh, ooookay baws! 😀

          P.S. I also asked a few people, real folk not pretend people on the internet, and they thought you were a moron, does that therefore make you a moron? Maybe by your standards. Well done, you just look dumber and dumber with each keystroke.

          the list of reasons why Cisco fails just flew at me too fast for typing. But hey, it doesn’t matter, you’ve been sold and that’s all there is to it.

          Next time try to research for yourself, don’t only buy into what YOUR company is telling you, half is bull and the other half is s**t.

        • #2602647

          Hey Oz, Go Breathe Into A Bag For A While!

          by phamlin ·

          In reply to LOSE? To whom or what?

          I think you’re hyperventilating pal, and it’s affecting your ability to make rational decisions. Not to mention it’s got your spelling and grammar all hosed up!

        • #2602571

          You a newb?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to LOSE? To whom or what?

          Most people know that I don’t spell check and type fast while on the road, I don’t take time to go over posts, especially BS like this.

          If you were a client, I’d have it checked before submitting. You are of no value to me in any way whatsoever, deal with it.

          Spelling and grammar in a discussion forum is so irrelevant to me that it doesn’t even fall into the ‘at least have a second look’ category.

          As for breathing into a bag, I think that explains your comments quite well. Next time make sure the bag isn’t full of glue.

          Edit: from reading your profile, I don’t know why I even bothered with you. You were speaking of credibility, yet you haven’t been here or posted anything besides this completely incorrect information.

          Who have you helped solve issues on TR? Uh, nobody.
          You haven’t even completed your profile! There was a time when someone with your profile would have been simply overlooked/ignored but I haven’t been around much lately so it slipped under my radar.

          Credibility, knowledge? Get a clue.

    • #2602531

      Hey Oz…

      by naughtymonkey ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      even though I feel that some may discount you as a rude a**hole stuck up a particular vendors a**, I did get a quote for NEC. It is probably the sales rep that is the problem, but I wasn’t impressed. I felt like they were trying to sell me a used car and they did not even know what the hell they were talking about. They couldn’t answer any of my questions and the system they presented didn’t look any more functional than the one we have that is 20+ years old.

      Do you know of any good firms in the upstate SC area. If you do, i would love to get a quote from an intelligent person. That is one of the things i liked about the Avaya system. The reps were intelligent, knew the technology, equipment looked good with all needs met, and they have a good local reputation. They also included 5 years support for about 1K over the NEC.

      The NEC reps on the other hand knew nothing about telecom it seemed, everything I asked them was “we will get back to you”, equipment looked like crap, and only a year support. I know looks are not everything, but when management spends 30K on a phone system, they at least want phones that look at least as nice as a $20 set from Wal-Mart. I know they have better equipment and the firm was just trying to low ball the price to get a sale. The high pressure sales tactics kind of pissed me off too.

      • #2598998

        Depends what they showed you

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Hey Oz…

        NEC’s NEAX line offer a very powerful andreliable PBX. The Corporate Networks Group portion of NEC’s site is where you need to look.

        They also have an NEC Corporate Networks Group based in SC. Mainly very clever engineers for larger systems, but they can redirect you to an AUTHORIZED reseller if need be.

        As for support, why would someone need to offer 5 years support for a system that should install, and work from day one?

        I have seen a Cisco system installed that eventually required a Cisco rep to work for the end user (permanently paid for by the Cisco reseller), just to keep it managed and running. So, they could technically say they offer permanent on-site support, but only because it was needed.

        After 6 months, it hit my desk and I installed a NEAX that I managed remotely if need be. Very few problems after the intial 2 week break-in/tweaking period.

        The difference is in the quality of support too, it sounds like you were dealing with a gray market reseller, not one trained and supported by NEC (which is very common with all telecom companies).

        When searching for a local vendor, always use the manufacturer’s site to find a properly authorized and trained dealer. NEVER search for local telephone companies or resellers, they just can’t offer the support you need and often void your warranty if the vendor find out they installed it.

        As for being a rude a**hole, I can be when I choose to be, but I’m a nice guy…for an a**hole. I have always said, as far as a**holes go, I am a nice one. Anyone claiming to not be an a**hole is also a liar. We are all a**holes to those we don’t lay down and aree with.

        As for being stuck up a particular vendors a**, that’s so far from reality it’s not funny.

        I’ve worked for several manfacturer’s, designed and installed systems from almost all of them as an independant contractor on Vancouver Island, but I don’t work for any one company now. My hands on experience and industry knowledge acquired over time has shown me who the real players are and who’s just playing a game and pulling the wool over people’s eyes by using old brand names or IT buzz words to make a sale.

        Have another look with a reputable dealer, one that NEC recommends, and you should have better luck. I would actually contact the CNG group (link above) and get THEIR ideas. If you feel a reseller was unprepared, ask the CNG group about them. If they are authorized, they will be reconsidered or retrained, if not, they will tell you who to try.


        • #2603298


          by naughtymonkey ·

          In reply to Depends what they showed you

          I will go through NEC and use the link provided. There are not too many companies in the local area. The Avaya system had a long support cycle mainly due to management request to have someone to take care of any needed changes. I am making a lot of changes to bring this company up to current technology. Their techs seem pretty sharp and they are also Avaya developers, so any integration would be done through them.

          The NEC reps just seemed sleazy, but like you said, they probably are not authorized. And the fact that they offer no extended support over a year seems like they don’t think they can install a system that lasts longer than that.

          I must say, your attitude has grown on me after reading your threads. I don’t you are as obnoxious anymore. And we are all a$$holes sometime.

    • #2881600

      The Best Phone Systems for Your Business

      by businessnewsie ·

      In reply to Phone systems comparisons

      Great post! I think one of the reasons that people are so unhappy about their phone systems is because they aren’t searching for the phone system CUSTOMIZED for their business.

      The best telephone systems for one business might be completely different than the best options for your own. This is why business owners must have a keen idea of what they need for their businesses to run smoothly and efficiently. Paying for features you don’t use is simply a waste of money, as is a phone system without the features you need.

      Make sure you do all the research to find the best phone system for your business.

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