Discussion Locked

Please GROW UP

0 helpful
37 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Your recent article about shell scripting had the following sentence...

And you are undoubtedly already familiar with the interface, although you probably call it the command prompt or, if you're a real old-timer, perhaps the DOS prompt.

There is enough age discrimination around without you guys accusing us 30 somethings of being 'real old-timers'. Please stop it. It promotes age discrimination and does no good whatsoever for our industry. Some of the best IT practitioners I've met have been in their 50's and beyond.

37 replies

by guruofdos

You have a point!

However, the majority of people in the IT industry have joined SINCE DOS was regarded as obsolete. Let's face it, when DOS was mainstream, there wasn't an 'IT Industry' as we recognise it today. Computers were relatively few and far between and we didn't NEED an 'industry' because it was a new thing and back then, DOS and Windows came with REAL manuals!!

Us 'old timers' who have been playing with computers since the early days learned how to use DOS and what all the arcane commands did and how to use them. GUI's were new fangled and mice were seen as something strange. Of course, as Windows (or MacOS or AmigaWorkbench, or whatever) came along, we adapted to the changes and could pick up these new ideas because we already knew the fundamentals. All we did was build on them. As we went along, we could build on our existing knowledge.

Today, there are one hundred times as many 'personal computers' in existance as there were in 1987. They are more complex, more 'clever' and have a whole new pantheon of 'goodies' that never existed when we were 'young'...todays computer users have never had it so good!!!

The problem is, only 100th of the users of todays computers have 'grown up' with computers and built on the experience of DOS and Windows3.1 (or Gem, or Apple Macintosh Lisa). That is to say only one in every hundred computer users UNDERSTAND their computer. The IT industry is entirely based on the premise that 99% of users have no clue what is going on, and it's up to us 1% of 'old farts' to keep the show on the road.

I started working with computers at the tender age of 19. I trained in electronics and computers were part of electronics...not a separate entity in their own right. I am now in my 'mid-to-late' thirties (37 next birthday) and have two children aged 6 and 8 who now use a computer on a daily basis. They have grown up with a computer in the house and it holds no fear for them...they just have no concept as to what is going on under the hood. Today people buy computers for the home in much the same way that they buy toasters, kettles or floor mops!!!

Now, my father used to repair our old toaster or TV if it broke. I can too. I can also repair the car, the TV or the computer. Will my kids be able to in twenty years time?

We live in a throwaway society where everything has to be cutting edge, cool and new. This seems to apply to knowledge too...nobody uses DOS anymore so there is no need to know about it.

Techs in my local retail store get puzzled when they see a machine with Windows 95 or 98 on it. Their average age is 17 and when 95 came out, they were still in short trousers...when I built and configured my first PC with a 386, Dos6.22 and Windows 3.0, some of them weren't even born!! Now I worked for said store between 1997 and 2000. They have my phone number and call me in if they have anything come in older than about 2001!!

"Mike, you old fart!", they say. "You remember Windows 95 don't you? How do you..."

Well, I resent 'age-ism' in this industry as much as the next man (or woman)...but it is nice to be wanted, isn't it?!!!!

by jellimonsta

Ahh!... the memories of being a young boy programming my name to scroll down a screen in basic on my Amstrad 128!! :) Or those games in the computer magazines that you could code in and spend 2 days doing so, only to get a syntax error when you try to run them :)
Good times!!!

by oldefar

Now babies are calling kids "old timers"! And I still haven't figured out what I want to be when I grow up!!

Personally, I remember learning solid state as part of electronics and working with the transistors that displaced tubes and mechanics, and then chips displacing discreet components. Try chasing problems through a tube and servor analog computer! Better wear your ear protection though.

by maxwell edison

.
"DOS" when there was no IT industry".

I remember when I had to give up DOS. I accepted Windows, but only with a lot of kicking and screaming.

You make some great points, Guru.

by guruofdos

The older I get, the more I yearn for yesterday. When I was a kid, school holidays seemed to last forever and be filled with constant activity. In the life experience of a seven year old, seven weeks is a large proportion of time. If you think that most memory becomes very hazy before age 4, that means a seven year old has a clear memory of perhaps 3 years. 7 weeks as a proportion of 150 or so really is a long time.

When you hit your 30's, 7 weeks as a fraction of 27 years or thereabouts is a mere spit in a very large bucket. Its all relative though. A week in 1974 is exactly the same as a week in 2004. It just seems shorter as you get older.

It is an accepted fact that the advances in IT have been almost exponential. Back in the 80's, a new CPU would come out every 9 to 12 months or so, and was just a case of faster rather than different. MS DOS plodded along, with large spans of time between subsequent releases. It took 5 years to go from MS Dos 4.01 on a 286 to MS DOS 6.22 on a 486 DX2-66 (reading the adverts in the back issues of computer magazines of the time). In that time, Windows went from 3.0 via 3.10 to 3.11, or NT 3.51 if you were a business user. I still have Windows 3.0 on 5.25" floppies for the 286. Not exactly a quantum leap over that relatively long period of time and a very gentle learning curve. Then Pentium, PII, MMX, 3DNow! came along and Windows95, Windows98, WindowsME, Windows2K. In a much shorter space of time. XP and cpu speeds in excess of 4GHz is the state of the art today, but even this isn't good enough. New launches and bigger and better 'everything' are almost a weekly occurrance. Not only do we have more to learn, but we have an ever decreasing time window in which to learn it before something else comes along. Microsoft please note: Launch a product when it is READY and WE are ready for it!

I have probably 'forgotten' more than I will ever have time to learn now. By forgotten, I don't imply that I don't KNOW it, just that it doesn't get used so often these days. When I have to use it, it's still there because I learned it over a far greater proportion of time and that kind of learning lasts.

There is a wealth of difference between age and maturity. One hopes perhaps that maturity comes with age. I don't think of my DOS (or Amiga, or BASIC, or CP/M) experience and knowledge as 'out of date' or 'old fashioned'. I simply regard it as knowedge which has 'matured' and stood the test of time, as I too have done - seventeen years down the line, my boss still pays me. When things progress so far that I just cannot keep up anymore, it may be time to grab my hat and coat and dissappear out of the door, never to return. For now, the industry is still somewhat reliant on 'mature' and 'proven' products rather than just 'new' and 'fresh'. People DO still run 200MHz computers with DOS and Windows 9x. People DO still have to get 'under the hood' and tweak about in the DOS prompt. I WILL still find new and interesting things to play with as time progresses (and my failing eyesight allows), but I think that there is still a place for an old fuddy-duddy stick-in-the-mud slowpoke like me in this game. For how much longer, I really wouldn't like to say.

Let the young play with their toys. Tomorrow they too will be older and (presumably) wiser and they will form part of our collective knowledge and history, for the 'next generation' to fall back on.

by lincdk

But know all about DOS and DOS commands. I started using computers way before there was an "industry" per se.

I'm kinda flattered that at 25 i'm and "old timer" in the industry

It's all a matter of perspective really!

by shiny_topadm

First, I understand your point about the article's wording, but I think you missed the complimentary aspect to the phrase. I would like to think that if a "thirty-something" takes (minor) offense to evidence of age-ism, that he missed the point! I'm 20 years past 30-something, and this happens in every industry, although the "IT" world seems to proceed with the highest rate of change. Time and technology march on, unimpeded. Sometimes, our "ancient" wisdom is called upon to decipher problems with devices that have long been out of favor. The company I work for has a division that repairs consumer electronics devices. Open-reel tape recorders, turntables that play vinyl(!) discs, electron tube devices are still out there and will positively bewilder any recent tech-school graduate. Us "old-timers" are proud to wear that badge, even if a hat would be more useful!

by dc_guy

This is a profession where the WISDOM of the more experienced people can be of great value, even if some of our KNOWLEDGE itself has no direct practical application. That's supposed to be the whole point of growing old: to become an elder, not just an "old fart" with a bumper sticker on a three-ton motor home stating, "We're spending our children's inheritance." In the UK, is it still considered polite and complimentary for two acquaintances to address each other as "Old Man" and "Dear Boy"?

by guruofdos

In our firm, the boss is 'the Old Man' and anyone over 45 is 'Old Chap'. When I joined the company, I was only 19 and commonly referred to as 'nipper' or 'the boy'. Now the boss's son (who is twenty-one) is 'the nipper' although everyone refers to him as 'Weener'!!

I am in the limbo state where no-one knows quite what to call me!! Actually, they call me many things, mostly uncomplimentary, but none seem to have a reference to my age! I DID get called 'Young Fart' in my late twenties by one colleague, but he has long since left the firm.

I'm just too young to be old and too old to be young! Now please pass me my pipe and slippers....just time for a quick nap before I go out breakdancing!

by wordworker

Could someone please point me to the article in question? Regardless of the context, this is what I call "fluffy bullsh** crap filler," probably written by someone who doesn't know a bit from a byte, but who is trying to sound like a technophile.

by wordworker

While it may be off-topic, knowing how to use the DOS command line (or any command line for that matter) is a SKILL that still has value today. Pinging servers, running the output of DIR or other commands through a pipe into a text file -- all things competent techies should be able to do. Maybe I AM an old-timer chronologically speaking, but knowing DOS puts me light years ahead of the paper MCSEs I run into who don't know what clicking Run and typing CMD means...

by oz_media

There's NOTHING wrong OR negative mentioned in ANY part of the post.
Is DOS NEW? no. Is Win 3.11 Old? Relatively speaking, YES. In the computer world, 6 months - 2 years is the difference between old and archaic.

So YEA DOS and the people who grew up using it are OLD TIMERS when it comes to computing?

Is this a BAD thing or a negative thing? No.

We are supposer to respect our elders, how does being considered an old timer possibly remove respect for someone's age? Quite the opposite, it vouches for thier knowledge.

This is just ANOTHER simple comment that has been taken way out of proportion by our more sensitive members (don't say it Guru)and yet another example of how touchy and defensive some people are these days? I just wonder WHY? I mean, I watch my P's and Q's when neccessary, but this is just WAY out of control. Does NOBODY have a sense of humor or lighthearted banter anumore?!?

What gives with you guys?

by oz_media

Well I'm 35 and most of my associates are mych older than me, 50+. I jokingly cal them grandpa or old timer and it's all a big laugh between everyone. THey also call me kid and pup, should I be offended because I'm neither? NO it's relative.

Sure we've got some crabby old Archie Bunkers here, we also have some snot nosed kids. Who cares, we are all in the same boat.

When my neice turned 20 I just about fell over. 20 !!! And I'm only 16, no 20 no....damn I'm gettnig on aren't I?!? I'm not old but in relation to her 20, I'm ancient.

I think people need to lighten up, there was no statement saying anything NEGATIVE about being an old timer, and also there was no reference to HOW old an old timer is. It was just a loosely used term that is being taken way out of proportion.

When someone MY age tells me they learned in DOS, I call the an old timers. They are the SAME age as me, sometimes younger, the term is used to relate to DOS being an OLD language.
Face it, in computer terms, two years ago is ancient.

I had an Atari 2900 and a VIC20, to some I am an old timer, to those who remember PRE-Vic 20 days, THEY are old timers, get it yet?

by maecuff

I'm going to be 41 in a couple of weeks, but I look sooo damn good. Remember, it's better to look good than to feel good.

(This is what old women say when they want to feel good about themselves)

by oz_media

Age is in the eye of the beholder they say???

Age is in the mind of the aging. If in my mind, I'm 21, then can I not also act and feel 21? Until I wake up all creaky that is.

My mum has just turned 64, she is off to England this summer for a few weeks and then back to work. She said she would be so bored without work, even if she doesn't work full time anymore she is still quite young at heart and has great stamina due to her young and positive outlook.

Like she says, she's just semi-retired, it doesn't mean she is getting old she's just getting started. If she lives another 25-30 years, she has almost my entire lifetime ahead of her and she's almost DOUBLE my age.

So yes, age is in the mind and heart, just like people taking offence to such trivial and unimportant matters as Janet's boob-oo. It is all what YOUR mind perceives to be abnormal or offensive, not what actually IS offensive.

Last night 60 minutes aired a piece on Iraq that showed several soldiers on a recon mission. They introduced the soldiers stating (for eg.) "this is John, he will lose his leg in the next 15 minutes when the Humveee hits a land mine."
"This is BOB, he will be sent to hospital with non lifethreatenig back injuries that will see him home in the USA by the end of the week."

This is BEFORE they hit the mine. THen with cameraq's rolling, they hit the mine, the humvee flips and others turn up with suppressing fire to determine whether it was a land mine or remotely triggered mine.

Now if you ask me, this would constitute as something children shouldn't be seeing, as opposed to a woman's breast. One feeds life, one takes it. What image do you want your children to see?

Obviously we NEED to see what goes on in war to appreciate the horrible scenes these men face each time we send them to die. If we can stomache that, why can't we stomache a womans breast being shown on a football field for less than 2 or 3 seconds?

Perhaps these war images are NOT shown in the USA and that's why everyone doesn't mind war, out of sight, out of mind. Just believe what the radio and carefully scripted TV reports show you and everything is peaches and cream. It is easy to stomache and even easier to support.

i think the american public should be forced to see images of war that THEY create, they should be innundated with the death toll and atrocities, perhaps they would be a little more cautious about backing such moves in the future.

Same with boobs, ya seen one, ya seen em all. So why doesn't everyone see ONE boob and then admit it and that it was awesome. Now boobs can be seen without such ridiculous repercussions and sex wouldn't be such a saleable product. THEN what would the Brittney's and Christina's do?!?!? Sing? I think not.

by guruofdos

Mae, my girl!

Fine women are like fine wine...

...they just get better with age :-)

Forty one? You are just reaching your prime!!!

Okay peeps...everyone down the pub in two weeks and raise a glass in celebration!!

by oz_media

Could also be someone's husband. In the same sense people use old lady to refer to thier wife OR mother.

When GURU says "Oz old man" he is not calling me OLD nor is he calling me his father (NOOOOOOOO!! You're NOT my father !!!), I think we are pretty close in age if I remember correctly, well I'm not THAT old yet but will be one day with any luck. (now according to the intent of the post, I have offended Guru. I don't think he's offended though, I wonder why.)

So yes, old man = father or husband, old lady = wife or mother. 'Old chap' is used when referring to a longtime aquaintance not that the person is actually OLD. I think someone is just being testie.

by oz_media

And without mentioning 'penis' once!! Just like a well practiced gymnast you pulled off the maneuver very cleanly.

Too old to be young, too young to be old, that's it in a nutshell. The thing is though, WOULD you be offended buy someone calling you an old timer? No, I don't think so. Are you offended when someone calls you 'kid', 'sixpence' or 'wee nipper'?

I think the only people takig offense to such statements are those sufferiong from an early midlife crisis. Just go but your Porsche and everything will be fine old man.

by mrafrohead

It's just a figure of speech. Kinda like us computer nerds are referred to as geeks.

I don't know about you, but I take pride in the fact that I'm a geeky computer nerd. And that I could be considered an "old timer" because I call it the dos prompt still... Even though I'm really not an old timer in any means yet. I still have the label of a kid that doesn't know his head from his feet...

I consider that much better than being labeled still wet behind the ears...

As for the real "old timers" in the computer world. They are the best that there is IMO. I only hope that I can become half as good as the people that have tought me what I know now. I have a lot of respect for the people that used to run the old punch card machines. They are our heritage. :)

Mrafrohead

by voldar

Maybe they are OLD, but for what I know, they really helped me at the "era" to learn to think.
When you are used to click on a button, it's much harder to go and start typing line commands (see LINUX:)). And lets take into consideration this: LINUX itself (a "new" op. system, is based on UNIX and you can use your knowledge of DOS to use it also).
Yes, it's true, these programs really made me become more "logical" in my thoughts and they helped me to really understand why I should click on a button to obtain what I am looking for.
And guess what, I am an "old-timer" (33y.o.) but I like that!
About being called "old-timer", what a heck, I like it :)).
I agree also with a post before me also, there are so many MCSEs that used - to quote myself - "cheat-shits" :)), and they are nothing else than paper keepers, but this is life.
I am glad for myself being and having the chance to be there when the first personal computer appeared (1980).
And ... BTW, you ARE what as you feel like, not as you look like. :)

by topesblues

Age is relevant to the subject. I?m 37. If I was a running back in the NFL I would be considered old. If I was running for president I would be considered young. I?m a musician and I?m somewhere in the middle. I?m old to the young rockers and young to the old blues cats. It?s all relevant to the subject. I didn?t find the use of ?Old Timer? offensive in any way in that post.

by oz_media

Most small boys are basically Eunich's, if you started out as a eunich and now are a man, you have grown up well. There are some fetish sites about women who are into Eunichs I think.

http://tinyurl.com/37bad

All in fun.:-)

OM

by jimntz

And I guess Linux is that little kid that sucks his thumb and carries a blanket, right?

by oz_media

I'll do that tonight. :-)

(two weeks pshaw, and you call yourself a Brit, okay Swede but you live in Britain!!!)

Two WEEKS!!! FOURTEEN DAYS, A WHOLE BUNCH OF HOURS!!

Good GOD! What have they done to you?!?

by maecuff

Thank you.. I have gotten better with age. More comfortable, less uptight. A little gray, but nothing my hair dresser can't handle. I told my husband that when I really get old, I'm going to grow my hair long, wear bright red lipstick and purple clothes every day.

by guruofdos

And why not?!!! Age is a question of mind over matter.

If you don't mind...what does it matter!!!

Enjoy the 'Roaring Forties'!!

Mike :-)

by dc_guy

I just finished reading a book by Joseph Conrad that was written in the 19th Century. The text implies that in those days one man could address another as "old man," provided only that the one truly were old enough to be the other's father, and that the two were well-enough acquainted to warrant such a brazen expression of intimacy. I imagine the next step would be first names. Obviously the language evolves, even in the Old Country. (Is that a term of affection too?) Here in the U.S. it has become common for everyone to address everyone else by first name, even upon first meeting, even clerks in banks and shops when serving a physician or a professor. In Latin America, the polite form of "you" has virtually disappeared. Even billboards address their readers as "tu." When I spoke that way in Spain I was almost deported.

by guruofdos

And you'd get shot in most 'Latin' countries for it!!!

I speak around fourteen different languages to a greater or lesser degree of profficiency. With almost NO exceptions, most languages have a polite form and a familiar form. English, by contrast, has the same words for each form, which makes learning English easier for foreigners on the one hand - there are less words to learn - but more difficult in some ways. The French, German and Spanish speakers simply can't understand why we do not have separate words for polite and familiar forms. Using the wrong form is very bad, er, form!

"Du" in Germany may be acceptable amongst family or close friends, or from an elder to a youngster, but in business and in most social circles, only "Sie" is considered acceptable.

Likewise in French, 'tu' is the familiar form and 'vous' is the polite form. The two are simply NOT interchangeable. Not only are the terms of address different, but the verb conjugations are also different, so it is harder to accidentally make a mistake.

When to use the formal or the familiar also depends on context as well as a knowledge of etiquette. This applies equally well to English (in England) as it does to other languages.

My father, for instance, is my 'Old Man' in everyday usage. "How's your old man doing?" or "Did your old man get to the Southampton game last week?". I would not, however, and neither would most children call him that to his face, and a father-son relationship is about as familiar as you can get!

Old Man is also another 'familiar term' for husband. "My old man spends all his time on the computer" is a familiar complaint, but no wife (who wanted to remain married!!) would use it as a direct form of address.

Between friends however it is a different story...especially amongst the middle and upper classes. "How the devil are you, Old Man?" or "I say, Old Chap, did you invest in....". Old in this case refers to a friendship or acquaintance of long standing, not a reference to the age of a person.

Referring to people by first names as a matter of course is a very bad show indeed. Somewhere like this forum, where we identify ourselves by first name or alias it is acceptable. Between colleagues at work it is acceptable. Between strangers, it is NOT acceptable (in the UK and most of the rest of Europe and the Latin World) UNLESS you have been introduced by a third party by first name, or you have introduced yourself by first name....or the person with whom you are conversing has made it clear that first names are acceptable. The expression 'on first name terms', meaning to know someone well has derrived from this very point of etiquette.

Now in this modern and lax age we live in, politeness is rapidly becoming obsolete. I for one choose not to take offence if someone DOES address me as Mike instead of Mr. Percival when the polite form is more appropriate, but there are those who do consider it very impolite. I was always taught to address strangers or my elders by surname until I was invited otherwise. One or two offspring of my colleages still to this day use the polite form when they see me, and they are now in their late teens and have known me for years. I even said to one that they COULD call me Mike, but THEY demurred stating that as I worked with their father it didn't seem right to them! Other children of colleages have always addressed me as Mike (or Uncle Mike) because I have introduced myself to them as such.

Now, if my bank manager addressed me by my first name, I'd be upset. He hardly knows me and as far as he's concerned I'm just a name and a number. I don't even KNOW his first name, just his initials. Counter staff refer to me by surname, even though I went to school with a few of them, they still have to call me 'Sir' or Mr Percival in earshot of their seniors!! But, they wear name tags and it IS acceptable to address THEM by first name.

Funny old world, innit?!!!

by oz_media

I found that when I moved here I was OVER polite to be in Canada. Not that people are rude but my ettiquette was way over the top. Even when someone's father was intoduced as Ken Ingolls I would still refer to him as Mr. Ingolls, when told "Just call me Ken" I found is used eye contact or 'excuse me sir' as opposed to Mr. ingolls OR Ken. I just couldn't do it.

On the other hand, I don't let people call me Mr. Sir and Mr. were my dad's names, not mine, I'm just a kid. I don't think anyone should feel like they need to address me formally, I don't expect it, I don't appreciate it and I'd much rather a 'hey dude', than a Mr.

I don't know if this was BECAUSE I was always told to address my father as sir and my mother was ALWAYS mum. One day I was camping with my dad and was telling someone about my 'old lady', he overheard me and I didn't live it down for a LOOOOOOONG time. Man did I get a spanking, my ass hurts just thinking about it. How dare I call my fathers wife and MY mother my "Old Lady!!"

I still prefer to call business associates by thier surname, or just as sir but not in a formal way as much as in a friemdly business way, "familiar respect"?.

I notice that around my mother and her friends that I revert back to my old over polite and charming young self, in MY world things are MUCH more casual and I take offense to being called sir or mister. That's my dads name, I'm NOT that old yet!!

I think the ability to adapt to your surroundings and understand WHEN to be formal, casual etc is very important.

I see some people that are all F-this and F-that around me which is fine, but in a meeting they do the same thing, which is not fine. Especially in an industry full of long haired leather clad artists. Too many people judge a book by it's cover and the lack of verbal skill by artists hurts them.

In conclusion, I think that people need to understand ettiquette and formal language but more importantly when and where to apply it.

by jardinier

Young, because I only started to learn about computers 8 years ago when I purchased my first computer -- SX 25 MHz, 4 MB RAM, running Win 3.1 on DOS 6.0

I now have computers running Windows XP Pro, and Mac OS 10.2.3

In versions of Windows prior to 95, there was a very useful facility called "File Manager." I have found that people whose first computer was 95 or more recent, are totally unaware of this component, but know only of Windows Explorer.

Regrettably, File Manager was tossed out in XP, but I still use 8 digit DOS file names because I continue to find them more specific and easier to locate. I also still use a number of keyboard short cuts.

As for my chronological age, I could be a father to some TR members, and a grandfather to others.

by oz_media

Hwo bout you download the old file manager for Windows. I've seen it for Win2K and 98, so they must have it for XP if you really miss it. Mind you, I think it is more of a look and feel rather than a fully functioning File Manager as in 3.11.

I remember working as a QA/IT manager for a 200 seat call center with static IP addressed 3.11 stations. Some direct connect to the predictive dialler's bix rack, the others via Davox Unison and a Nortel Meridian Option 11.

WHAT A FREAKING NIGHTMARE!!

To top it off, I had a few "savvy" users who would change the screen colors with the little crayon applet ad the next user was baffled until I reset it. you see, the day shift wore sunglasses in the office as we faced the sun on the 15th floor. They would use the most ghastly color combos that looked just fine through tinted glasses, the night shift would come in and scream at the bright pinks, yellows and reds. Oh the good ole days!

This discussion is closed to new replies.