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  • #2186982

    Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

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    by dotxen ·

    Hi Everyone,

    My name is Robb and I wrote the topic ‘Ageism? Good Idea?’.

    I wrote this topic to provoke debate about a very important issue in our industry.

    I am 55 years old and many of you will have egg on your faces over that bit of knowledge. I have been in the IT industry for more than 15 years and I am now a sage-like soul who now teaches IT technologies to people who want to work in my industry. One of the questions that they ask me, is “Can I get a job at my age in IT?”. Because the majority of my students are military Resettlement folk, they are over 35 (in most cases). I always calm their fears by telling them just how tolerant we IT folk are and how age is a real asset. But, to be truthful, I am not sure that this is correct.

    To Test this I made myself ‘unemployed’ and applied for 100 IT jobs. I wrote out a ‘proper’ CV/Resume and placed my current photograph on it. I stated my age and my qualifications correctly and I also made sure that any referees I stated would respond. Out of the 100 vacancies that I applied for over a two month period I did not received ANY offers of an interview.

    I then changed my age and placed a photo of myself taken when I was 30 years old, on the CV. I sent the CV to around 25 companies (some of the original 100 too!) and have received 12 offers of interview and one direct offer of a job. 3 offers came form three of the original companies that did not respond to my ‘truthful’ CV.

    This was not a scientific piece of research, I know that. But I believe that despite the laws about ageism and so on, in my country (UK) and in the USA, the fact remains that ageism is practiced, if not blatently, then in the minds of many of us.

    I was intersted to note the many responses to my original article. May I thank all of those who took the time to respond.

    I plan to take this issue further, but right now I have to start to earn a living again.

    Does anyone have any vacancies?

    Best regards – Happy Trails

    Robb

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    • #3239425

      Two years too soon, and wrong country

      by stress junkie ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I didn’t read your previous post because using the word “ageism” made it seem too high-brow to interest me.

      I was restructured out of my previous job when my employer was bought by a larger business. Since then I had not taken any steps to regain employment. Initially I intended to take a bit of a vacation from the stress, responsibility, and long hours of IT support. I mostly wanted to get away from incompetent managers. As the months turned into years I found that I could not ever forsee a time when I could bear to work in the typical corporate structure, due entirely to the problems of working with incompetent managers. ( They make me really angry ) Thankfully I’ve always lived well “below my means” and I’ve got a lot of money in the bank.

      I knew that I would love to work for myself. I’m sure that I would be the best IT manager that I’ve ever met as well as the best IT support tech/engineer/whatever that I’ve ever worked with. Since I have such a high regard for myself I was looking for a business model to give me an advantage in the consulting market place. I recently figured out a niche that I believe is being completely ignored by the big consulting houses and I’ve started my own business.

      My business plans include growing my business to the point that I will employ IT support engineers in about two years. I’ve already decided that I will strongly favor people who are over 40 years old when I am looking for employees. ( I am 47 years old. ) I recognise that increased age does not guarantee emotional maturity or a sense of responsibility but I believe that these qualities will be easier to find among mature employees rather than the propeller headed twenty year olds.

      Unfortunately for you I do not expect to be hiring for about two years and I live in the United States.

      I think that you are correct in thinking that most businesses favor young, inexperienced, and potentially irresponsible employees over older candidates. I think that there are lot of reasons for this. There is no question in my mind that our culture is based on valuing youth. Young people starting out in their career cannot demand the higher wages that an experienced older person can reasonably expect. Young people are generally more healthy than older people so business paid health insurance premiums may be lower for businesses with generally younger employees.

      In my opinion the ONLY things that matter regarding employees are quality of workmanship and a deep seated sense of responsibility. I believe that most business school curricula would say that these are not bottom line assets and that a business will save money by sacrificing experience and quality in favor of youth.

      Perhaps in twenty years the name “stress junkie” will be revered as the founding father of a new business paradigm placing quality ahead of everything else and of favoring experience and maturity as the characteristics that are most desireable in employment candidates.

      • #3239377

        Damn! I was hoping you would take me on!!

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        Thank you so much for your excellent and thoughtful response. I do aplogise for the ‘high-brow’ title of my earlier topic.

        You are quite right in what you say, and it behoves us all to take note.

        However, I am not anti-youth (neither are you, obviously) but I am annoyed and irritated by recruitment companies and there inept attitude toward useful folk of my age.

        I hope that many people from recruitment companies will have read our input and learned from it, and stop salivating over twenty-somethings with university degrees (a useless qualification in network systems support, in my view) and start to recruit, or at least give opportunities to the more mature and experienced amongst us.

        Thanks

        Robb

        • #3239364

          You’re right.

          by stress junkie ·

          In reply to Damn! I was hoping you would take me on!!

          I was once twenty-something and I was very reponsible back then so you’re right, I’m not completely prejudiced against younger people.

          At this point I’ve just read your “ageism” post. It’s pretty funny. I got a few chuckles from reading it.

        • #3239356

          Just will not happen

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Damn! I was hoping you would take me on!!

          Recruitment agencies are all about passing meat through the mill not the quality of the product {in their case workers} but the numbers as they get paid to push the sausage machine harder or they don’t have a job within a very short time.

          So they tend to ignore the older workers as they themselves are young know it all sales-people so they quite naturally think that someone their own age or younger is the easiest work which they are so they place the older workers at the bottom of the heap as it will take them far too long to deal with and then proceed to concentrate on those that they can move quickly and hopefully without any work other than sending them to a place and then hopefully never see them again and get paid for their services.

          These people are not the slightest bit interested in fitting work places to people or the other way around as most of them are incapable of understanding the nature of the work in IT and they certainly do not understand the lingo so they just go with the bare minimum experience asked for and then offer nothing else. Most of these recruiters actually think that M$ are responsible for Personal Computers and have absolutely no idea what a mainframe is or anything other than Windows as an OS. Actually come to think about it they most likely do not even know that anyone other than Microsoft actually exists as that would be all that they see on their workstations.

          Here in AU things are a bit easier as we just lack the population that we require so the older people are being encouraged to keep working particularly the trades people as we do not have anywhere near enough of them. Currently several places are offering $100.00 AU just to attend an interview and any traveling expenses. If you come from a different area they will also pay your moving costs and set you up in a house just to get you to work for them.

          Because we have not trained anywhere enough people recently companies are crying out for experienced trade people and are now importing them in from the Philippines and Indonesia on 3 year work permits. The problem is projected to reach a peek in 2015 when there just might be some people available to fill some of the vacancies that are currently available and about another 20 years to be self sufficient in workers for these places. These are not the unskilled jobs but the highly skilled ones where companies are offering $300.00 AU per week above award just in an attempt to attract workers.

          One place that I recently went to had a car on the dock and every day that you showed up for work you where given a raffle ticket in the car which was drawn monthly and this was only to encourage their workers to actually attend work even though they are paying well above award wages to any new comers.

          Col ]:)

        • #3239353

          AU $100.00 to interview!!!

          by stress junkie ·

          In reply to Just will not happen

          Holy moly. I think that works out to about US $5.42. Such a deal!!

        • #3239350

          Well lets see

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to AU $100.00 to interview!!!

          Try looking up http://xe.com/ currently I believe that $1.00 AU buys about 77 cents US so it will work out a little better than $5.42 US more like $5.96 US. 😀

          Really it works out to something like 77.2005 USD
          which if I remember correctly is almost enough to leave as a tip at a Mac Donald’s for your cheese burger naturally it would have to be more if you ordered a Big Mac. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3242866

          Now I’m REALLY ANGRY

          by mwatch ·

          In reply to Well lets see

          Here is proof that youth can be a real PAIN.

          I’m not sure when it started, but I’ve grown very tired of running into grubby foam cups with TIPS written in crayon. I’m sorry I don’t tip someone for putting a burger in a bag, thank you is all ya get.

          I’d bet the 100 AU that the first was someone UNDER 18. Given a resposible IT position they would likely saw a slot in the cube and tape a TIPS sign just below.

        • #3236710

          Actually

          by keithwilliamsatl ·

          In reply to Well lets see

          Actually if $1.00AU = $0.77US, then $100.00AU=$77.00

        • #3237028

          Currency exchange rates . . .

          by gentlerf ·

          In reply to AU $100.00 to interview!!!

          More like 75 USD at this point.

        • #3240447

          Yep, It’s The Truth

          by dotxen ·

          In reply to Just will not happen

          Great reply. Totally agree.

          Here in the UK we have a massive intake of overseas workers. Many are very very good, such as our Indian friends, but with so many incoming, there are a lot of useless eco-tourists. I can’t mention the nationalities or I may get arrested.

          Getting back to the point…. I am annoyed that recruitment agencies are not being fair to older, senior, mature, whatever, IT people. The loss to our economy must be in the millions a day in terms of having to train less experienced people amd covering the mistakes that younger folk make, through no real fault other than their inexperience and the lack skill to learn from mistakes.

          Our’s is an aging nation, more so than the USA and Oz. So we are not in a position to continue this mindless prejudice.

          Robb

        • #3237801

          Is this true?

          by max.tay ·

          In reply to Just will not happen

          Is this the real picture down under? I know that there are many IT pros who are out-of-job for months and even years.

          I would agree on the first part – the recruitment agencies know nothing about the jobs.

          Max

        • #3237769

          Well it didn’t specifically relate to IT

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Is this true?

          But there are jobs that are impossible to fill here in some areas. They do advertise AU wide for staff and when they don’t get any responses they have to go off shore.

          What I was referring to in the above post was a News item on the AU Broadcasting Commission Lateline show where they interviewed a couple of people who ran business and couldn’t get any staff to work for them. Mostly in the NT around Darwin but the problem is a bit more wide spread than that because we have not trained enough people in the last 10 years so these jobs can not be filled.

          The current Federal Government who caused the problem is now addressing it as a “Matter of Importance” and is introducing some legislation [as if that helps} to start increasing the number of apprentices and the like from 2006 onward. With the accelerated training that will be provided these people will start coming on line by about 2010 how’s that for quick action by the Government? 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3236844

          Filling the gap

          by netsec ·

          In reply to Well it didn’t specifically relate to IT

          What do they expect to do in the mean time? Leave everything vacant? I can see how that would help business or the economy

        • #3238683

          Hey they are the Government

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Filling the gap

          Now really you can not expect any sense from them can you? 😉

          Currently they are awarding 2 year work permits so if everything goes to their plans we should only have a 2 year wait for the new trainees to become available. You have to admire the “Common Sense” that they do show don’t you? 😀

          And people wonder why it is that I have such a low regard for Politicians. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3236708

          Australia??

          by keithwilliamsatl ·

          In reply to Just will not happen

          Australia?? Hmm?1 Maybe I should move to Australia.

        • #3236693

          Where to Apply?

          by keithwilliamsatl ·

          In reply to Just will not happen

          Maybe they should advertise for IT workers here in the States. Is there any online websites down there where one can apply for jobs in AU?

          Always wanted to visit Australia.

          Keith
          KeithWilliamsATL@netscape.net

        • #3238755

          Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

          by vangar ·

          In reply to Where to Apply?

          http://www.jobnet.com.au & http://it.seek.com.au/
          are the two I use the most, both provide a huge number of available positions from the majority of Aussie recruiters as as well as directories of Recruiters sites.

          http://www.immi.gov.au/work/index.htm is the gov immigration site that provides some info on thee rules for getting in to the country.

          Just make sure you have credentials .. I don’t know how it is in the rest of the world but degrees and certifications are what recruiters want.

          I have read that we are suffering a massive skill shortage but in all honestly the fact is that we have the skills, it’s just that there is a large base of uncertified skilled workers.

          I know guys that could write the manual on enterprise development that have aquired the skills on the job developing infrastructure for global companies that can’t get jobs because they do not have degrees and aree not certified in their skills. These guys are getting turned down and the jobs given to new graduates because recruiters can’t see past the “Certificate”.

          The sad fact is that some of the best people are the ones that live and breath IT, have absorbed more skills than you could believe through the pure love of studying technology but have never done the formalised study (or found the time).
          These people are bypassed and some bloke that thought IT might be a nice job and paid 4000 dollars for a IT training course but has trouble even turning on a PC will get the job.

          I suppose it ccomes back to the recruiting thing and ease of processing.

          I hired an MSCE recently that didn’t know what IP was ???.

          I also hired an ex helpdesk guy with no credentials. The helpdesk guy is teaching me stuff. It turns out that he has spent the last 15 years learning every peice of technology known to man and actively participates in open source dev on more platforms than you could poke a stick at.

          I know which one I will keep.

      • #3239354

        Only one problem here

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        While you may find that you are the only manager/tech that you can work with happily you are also your own hardest critic so you end up working harder and longer than you ever really need to just to stay happy with your level of work.

        Then you do not take holidays or sick leave as you can not justify the lost time and you become your own worst enemy. My boss is exactly the same and I would do anything possible to get away from him that is part of the reason I’m not allowed sharp implements as cutting my wrists just to kill my boss is unacceptable. 😀

        Col ]:)

        • #3239347

          I agree

          by stress junkie ·

          In reply to Only one problem here

          I spent 15 years in contract work, which has some similarities to being completely independent. You’re right about being hard on myself.

          The good news is that, unlike many people who start a business, I would not be draconian to people that I hire. I’m very oriented to humane business practices. I think that if you get the right people then you don’t have to be an ogre. Hopefully when the time comes I will be able to create a great work environment where people will enjoy making a living.

        • #3240628

          Picture the galley powered by slaves.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to I agree

          To the slaves, “Today I have good news and bad news.”
          Slaves: “What is the good news, O benevolent one?”
          The benevolent one: “I thought we should take a short easy cruise to a pleasant island where the sun shines and relaxation is possible.”
          Slaves: “That is indeed good news O benevolent one.”
          From some smart ass in the back:”What’s the bad news???”
          The benevolent one:”I thought I’d enjoy a spot of water skiing on the way.”

          Dawg ]:)

        • #3240341

          When you get to the stage

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I agree

          Where you describe you position in the business as Alleged Boss and Official Scape Goat you’ve hit the mark.

          Right at the moment I have 10 techs working for me and one office manager just to keep the books in order and arrange work schedules for the guys. I’ve actually had to fire a couple of these women as they tend to allow the little power that they have go to their heads and start bossing the guys around which is unacceptable to me anyway. 😉

          The one I have now sought of works out OK but she doesn’t like sending me out on jobs as I continually undercharge on things where the customer have been ripped off previously so I consider this more of a “Good Will” thing and only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes rather than our standard hourly rate. Drives her nuts and she goes mad at the time when I hand her the time sheets to invoice out but at least she knows better than to jump on the guys who do exactly the same thing after ringing me just to see if what they are doing is OK with me. I’m pretty flexible on things like this and whenever we do this the person in question has a customer for life as that customer only wants the original tech to come out again even though by now we are charging the correct prices.

          But what I do find stressful now is the way that my staff steal my Classic Mercedes to drive around in rather than the cars that I provide them with. They all seem to think that these are company property and not just my play toys of course as I drive one of them all the time it’s a bit hard but when one approached my wife and tells her that he’s taking her car and has OKed it with me and I know nothing at all about it I know that they are using me.

          One actually was involved in a collision where one of my Mercs was a complete loss as a truck ran a red light and collected him right on the drivers door the only good thing about it was if he had of been in the new car most likely he would have died rather than only suffering minor injuries that he did {well at least until he got out of hospital then he got really hurt :D} I made him write me a new engine management program in Boolean for a 64 K EPROM that was used in the EFI system of the car. Of course I didn’t help him one little bit or even give him a starting program to work from he had to do it all from scratch and then he wasn’t allowed out until he had proved himself responsible, it didn’t matter about his protests of being the innocent victim which he was he shouldn’t have taken that car which I had just finished restoring and hadn’t even had a chance to drive it anywhere. 🙁

          We do at least have a hell of a lot of fun and that really is all that matters in the end as happy people are productive but the BASTARDS Still Steal My Cars! 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3237014

          RE: Stealing cars

          by gentlerf ·

          In reply to When you get to the stage

          Here in the US it would be grounds for termination. I know I wouldn’t do that to a boss/employer who had graciously allowed use of a company car. I figure if I want a Mercedes, I’ll buy one.

        • #3236982

          I’m way too soft

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to RE: Stealing cars

          They also all know me from way back as every one of they guys used to work for me at other jobs when I ran IT Departments and just tended to follow me around as I left one job for another.

          But the mongrels all say exactly the same thing that I say I don’t trust new cars so I’ll have my 73 Merc thank you very much. I really wouldn’t mind it so much if they didn’t wait until I had finished restoring the things before they stole them as they could give me a list of problems that needed fixing before I got really into it.

          But by the same token they all know just where the line in the sand is drawn none of them would dream for a single minute of touching the Ducati as they all know that their lives wouldn’t be worth living. The Mercs on the other hand always need a run from time to time but just not every day. 🙁

          And while I’m still a bit peeved about the wreck I still have the worker which I’m sure I wouldn’t have if he was in the new car. Now all I’ve got to figure out is how to write off on tax the value of the Mercedes which go up in value every year rather than the current crop of crap which looses a third of its value when you drive it off the showroom floor. 🙂

          I’m working on that one though and my accountant is going nuts but I like to keep them on their toes. 😀 I’ve got to admit that when they are driving the Mercs they don’t have any collisions so they are actually driving safer than with the new cars there has only been one incident and I was at a M$ Partners Meeting so I had to leave that to go to the Hospital {that really upset me no end} :p I actually could stay awake that night instead of falling asleep as soon as I got home. 😉

          I am getting hints since the last Christmas party that they would like to see the 65 Beetle back on the road as well but it is slightly modified and only has 3″ of ground clearance so it isn’t fit for an everyday car although the wife used to drive it to her job once and everyone complained when I got her driving a Merc. They all wanted “Herbie” back and it didn’t matter that it set off car alarms at 100 feet or threw you all over the place or broke the glass in windows in hospitals at 3.00 AM they liked its character. Since then I’ve built and even better motor for it and the more that they drool over it the more I’m not interested in putting the finishing touches to it. Currently all it needs is a wash the engine cover fitted a fuel hose from the filler to the tank and battery. One day when I feel the “Need For Speed” I’ll put it all back together and it will be in the same category as the Ducati. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3237540

          Never Cut Your Rate

          by trl ·

          In reply to When you get to the stage

          > I consider this more of a “Good Will” thing and
          > only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes
          > rather than our standard hourly rate.

          Hal 9000 —

          Doing the “Good Will” thing is smart business, but never, ever reduce your rate. Instead, bill fewer hours than you actually work, all the way down to zero when you’re acknowledging a real foul-up.

          Then hand your manager a timesheet with “billable” and “marketing” and “rework” hours on it, just to keep track for yourself of what you’re doing.

          There’s a book I highly recommend: “Managing the Professional Service Firm” by David H. Maister

          best,

          t

        • #3237377

          Well as I own this place

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Never Cut Your Rate

          That would be a bit hard to do but I do keep a record of the time spent on these jobs and on occasions I’ve been known only to charge $100.00 AU per day but these have been on real mess ups.

          One job that I was called in to do was to fit a CD ROM and I did suggest a DVD ROM instead as there is only a very small difference in price and the DVD was the better option. Well I quoted for the part the labor all 15 minutes of it and spent 4 weeks fixing up the mess.

          Not even the network cables where fitted to the walls just hanging out on CAT5E cable. The DSL Internet connection which was setup by a so called professional consisted of a DSL Modem connected to a hub no router to be seen and the only way that they could pass files between different computers was to e-mail them. There was no software other than Windows on any of the computers except the managers unit which had MYOB but only because they already had a copy of it and the best thing is I was asked to see why the spell checker wasn’t working in the Word Processor which turned out to be Notepad which they had been told was a fully featured WP. 😉

          Just thinking about it gives me goose bumps with all the wasted time there. It should never have happened but that is how some of the so called “Professionals” work all the way down to selling 2 monitors for one computer with no way of fitting the second monitor, the sellers excuse was that they didn’t realize that they wanted to use both the monitors at the same time he thought that they just wanted to plug and unplug them as required one being a 17″ CRT the the other was a 15″ TFT. Doesn’t everyone buy 2 monitors per computer just to have one as a spare? 😀

          Now this was really a “Small Business” with only 6 computers and the Internet connection but all of that hardware cost them 40K and all without any software. And just to make things even better it was all cheap junk and the guy who had pulled the cables for the network had just fitted plugs and made sure that there was an Internet connection available to every computer and then left the place saying “I’ll be back soon” well 4 or 6 weeks latter when I was called in he hadn’t even rung them to tell them what was going on and then just as I finished everything he walked in and demanded to know what it was that I thought I was doing and he then approached the owner and asked why they didn’t ask him to supply the software. 🙂

          But what was even better was his continued insistence that they didn’t need any AV products installed as the modem would stop any viruses. 😀 Even though that had already been taken down and lost weeks of product time.

          Maybe he knew a lot more than I did or as I believe he was just trying to rip them off even more. I could have supplied the hardware to a much better quality and with all the software that they needed for less than half of what they paid for the rubbish and still have made a profit. As well as pull the cable and fit it properly. Which when I looked at the building wasn’t even necessary.

          The main reason that they called me in was because they got an infection and had to do a complete reload and the unit that I fitted the DVD to didn’t have any way to use the “OEM CD” that came with the network. Of course every copy of Windows was a Pirate copy as well so I didn’t hesitate to report this to M$ and they got new OEM copies of Windows for helping M$ to close this guy down well at least stop him from continuing along on his merry way.

          The whole idea of buying a complete network is to have a standard set of hardware as a base and tailor the individual units as required instead they got a mis mash of different everything and no hardware drivers with any of the boxes. The only hardware driver disk that I could find was for the TFT monitor and I really think that was an oversight on his part as well. All they had in the way of software was one recorded Windows XP Pro CD and the TFT monitor disk. But every box had a COA on it even if they where very badly made copies and all with the same product key they didn’t even look like the real thing.

          Of course I got a very friendly reception when I walked in as their first reaction was how much are you going to attempt to take off us to do this little job?

          They where a lot less than friendly when I first got there and I just fitted the drive and after I was preparing to leave I was asked to have a look at the rest of the thing for an opinion.

          Well they where up and running for 3 weeks before they got taken down by a virus and even in that short time that had run up a bill from their ISP well into the 3 figure mark owing to the amount of data that was being transfered across the Internet. And what was worse is this was how they where told things should work.

          I really can not stand to see things like this happen and it gets me mad as people like this only make it that much harder for the rest of us who do the right thing by our customers. They seem to consider them as a cash cow with an endless supply of funds to keep them occupied and these business are at their mercy because they know no better and even think that they are getting a great deal which they are but just not for them but the guy providing the so called service. On the invoice he had charged them for the installation of the CAT5E cable on 4 different occasions and every time they where under different headings as well as different prices and what made it even worse is that when they moved in the whole place was already wired.

          No I can not go on it’s getting to me just thinking about the whole thing the only good thing to come out of it all was I now have a customer for life and I did get some small satisfaction when I got a M$ Infringement Alert mentioning the company who supplied this mess and the out of court settlement that they where forced to agree to.

          The customer got a fixed invoice and the real time spent was entered down in my books and listed under “Good Will.” The real problem here is that I really can not reduce my rates as that gets the Tax Man interested {which means an audit} but I can reduce the number of hours shown on an invoice and charge it out at installation rates rather then consulting rates. But that is about the only way around the problem. On that job I settled for a flat $100.00 per day and they where happy with the amount that I was charging them as in all honesty it would have been cheaper to pull the lot out bin it all and start again from scratch if I charged them the correct amount for the consulting service. I really could have made far more money by fixing the mess up that what it originally cost which is really what should have happened. But of course they would have gone broke a long time before I ever got paid as by the time I got involved they had already been unable to work for at least 2 weeks. They where reloading the boxes themselves and having no success. But at least the “Volume License” copy of XP worked with the provided product keys. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3240590

          Lousy Boss

          by willcomp ·

          In reply to Only one problem here

          My boss is a lousy SOB. Oops, I’m self employed.

          Dalton

        • #3240338

          It’s really hard to complain

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Lousy Boss

          About yourself isn’t it? 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3237021

          Personally . . .

          by gentlerf ·

          In reply to Only one problem here

          I don’t think suicide or wrist cutting is an acceptable form of protest. One thought I did have is, maybe its time to hire a 53 year old Yank.

        • #3243049

          Well can you laugh

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Personally . . .

          When everything is going to hell around you?

          Or one of the guys has just written off a recently finished restoration and all I was thinking about was how badly he was hurt. “I could inflict the punishment latter when the quacks had patched him up.” 😉

          Actually I would most likely drive you nuts as I’m a BAD BASTARD to work for or so I’m constantly told but the funny thing is that any of the guys will step in and take some of my work when they think I’m working too hard. Or steal my mobile phone just so I can have a nights peace and quite.

          But working for yourself and having staff is a constant worry as I’m always feeling obliged to make sure that I have enough work so I can pay them.

          Unlike a lot of the current places I would never consider laying off staff when things are slow as I know that I’ll need them all again latter and to me they really are far more important than a few $ in my hip pocket or bank account. We are more family than anything else and all as mad as cut snakes so we all work together fairly well.

          But if I knew then what I know now it would sure as hell be a different story. 😀

          Next time I have a bright idea like that last one I’m going to have myself committed and just sit in a nice padded room full of drugs and not noticing anything at all. 🙂

          You know you have got it bad when after an operation you are told that the quacks thought that you had brain damage because they couldn’t make sense of what you where saying. Apparently or so “She Who Must Be Obeyed” insists they quacks where really worried about me as I wasn’t making any sense to them and after 3 hours in recovery I was transfered to a observation room for constant monitoring and it was there that the wife first saw me and she insists that when I was asked how I felt my only reply was “I’ve got a pain in my D Drive.” Thats what had all the medical staff worried but she just laughed and said he’s OK just send him up to the ward and he’ll be OK tomorrow you might even understand a few of the words that he says then.

          I really have no idea how true that is but she insists it is right. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3237012

          Double-edged commute…

          by hawk si ·

          In reply to Only one problem here

          …agree. Add to this the good chance that one starts from a “home office” (read basement, garage, or attic…) and it sounds great: no more traffic jams to work; no more silly meetings masquerading as management — a nice short commute.

          Trouble is, you also never leave the office; work is a short walk away & every time you have an idea, you pop into to office…& come up for air hours later. When I first started I thought the family would be happy to have me working form home — but their perspective was that I wasn’t home: I was ‘down there’ (basement office..).

          Ended up installing wireless (yes, w/ 128 WEP and VPN) so I could use a laptop while kids were doing homework, etc. I may not be paying anymore (or less) attention than I was before, but now that I’m visible in the kitchen or family room, I’m “home” again.

          Like many here, I, too, am unlikely to go back to a corporate mill working for some techno-neanderthal manager. However, being my own boss wasn’t without a few surprises & a sharp learning curve.

        • #3236965

          God you got it easy

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Double-edged commute…

          When I took that step I thought a nice quite life a bit of work and then I could have something that I’d never had previously “Holidays!” 🙂

          Well that only lasted for 12 hours or thereabouts as the same day I was approached by the 10 guys who are now working here all with a list of customers to come work for me {again} as if they didn’t complain enough about me when they where working for me previously and all willing to take pay cuts just to be in at the beginning until I could pay them all the right amount when things got rolling. I should have known better and committed myself. A nice padded room with a lovely jacket with long sleeves that tie up quite neatly behind my back and enough drugs so I never worry about anything ever again. 🙁

          But really they are like family and we are all the same as far as I’m concerned.

          Now if I could just get rid of my Boss everything would be perfect. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3236841

          Do that anyway

          by netsec ·

          In reply to Only one problem here

          I do that anyway. Even when away from the office, I get calls 24/7 and I take care of them. My philosophy is doing what needs to be done to make sure the users have as little inconvenience as possible.

          Of course IT has made it a little easier than it used to be now that we have VPN Access.

        • #3238874

          Tired of the hypocrisy of age discrimination

          by ramabrooks ·

          In reply to Only one problem here

          I am 29 years old and in my 4th year as an Information Technology professional. With the exception of my current assignment every other previous IT assignment, the “older techs” would dismiss us 20 somethings as not having any “knowledge or expereince.”

          This would come mainly from guys who are over 45 in age. Very few had any college under their belt and the majority assumed they know it all.

          Since many people in the “older age group” got into the IT field prior to formalized college programs or certification testing they tend to scoff at working on a degree or learning what it takes to pass a certification test. I do not wish to come across as saying all techs in that age group are like that, just from previous jobs I would say maybe 60% to 75% would fit into this description.

          I have found some great mentors and friends in the older crowd and they like me cannot stand the know it alls. Face it IT is to large and complex for one person to know it all and be an expert in it.

          One mentor in particular told me that I have 2 choices “learn or die.” Those who refuse to learn will find that their career options get shorter.

          I would submit that if the resume for the 55 year old had emphasizesd continual learning and growth on more current technologies that there would have been more positive feedback.

          Finally, no one in their right mind is suppose to inlcude their age and a photograph when submitting a resume for an IT job. A more scientific study would involve having 2 techs resumes one a person starting in the field and the other being a vetern of IT. Leave age and pics off of it. While you are at it, include a 3rd resume that is mid-career with certs and a college degree and see which one gets the most responses.

          Age is not the issue. It is the eternal triad of expereince, education (both college and non-college) and certifications that gets people hired not just because of a person’s age. To suggest that people are not getting jobs or passed over because they are too young or too old is the dumbest thing I have heard in IT (including some of the things end users say).

          Regardless of your age, you might want to do the following if your resume is seriously sucking on getting job offers:

          1) Make sure it is current and up to date

          2) Have a professional (like an English teacher) proof read your resume

          3) Make sure that your skills are current for the positions you are applying for. If you have 10 years of Windows 3.1 support under your belt, it will not help you with getting a job for Longhorn upgrades.

          4) See if the local community college has classes on technology for a job position you want to move into. Consider picking up a technical certificate or degree.

          5) Do a brain dump of all your skills, experience, certifications and training/education into one massive resume. Mine is about 4 pages long. From this massive resume, you can copy and paste items that will help you for certain jobs. You could easily come up with multiple resumes each for a different type of IT job (network admin, server admin, DBA, PM and etc).

          6) Get certified. View certification as the final exam for a self study class in which you learn the susbstance to the certification.

          7) find places to volunteer to gain experience for IT areas that you want to grow into. Besides you build good karma and increase the possibilty that a future employer will know of work through your volunteer experience. Remember the 6 degrees of seperation thing.

          8) Get a life, a social life that is. Again with the six-degrees of seperation thing. You may find that even if you end up answering more questions than you ask your social network, that one of them might mention you to someone who is looking for a smart tech.

          9) Be happy! No one likes to work with people who have a dark cloud over them.

          10) And finally to qoute Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich, “practice the law of over compensation. If the benefit does not come at this job, it will come to you in a future job with compounded interest!”

          Thanks,

          Rama K. Brooks, A+, Netork+, AAS
          Generation-X Redneck
          from Webberville, MI

        • #3238765

          thanks

          by omesiasv ·

          In reply to Tired of the hypocrisy of age discrimination

          I am 48 and with the same problem. Your message was really useful. Now, where do you (all people here) get the time to follow this most interesting discussion?
          I will just begin to experiment with multiple resumes and “multiple age”.

      • #3240635

        The object of the game is not so much to become a millionaire as it is…..

        by sleepin’dawg ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        to become financially independent. Fix in your mind the idea that you don’t work for any company, you work at that company. You don’t work for anybody, you work with them. Once that idea is fixed in your mind and YOU BELIEVE IT, you’ll be positioned to set out on the road to financial independence. Who knows, along the way you could become a millionaire but first you must be independent. Remember you don’t work for any company; you work for yourself and you’re only at that company for the pay check. Companies have little or no loyalty or gratitude to their employees so why are you loyal and grateful to them. Think of yourself as offering them goods and services in exchange for which they offer you a pay check. There is no earthly reason why you should be ‘selling’ your wares to one company exclusively. It’s a short step from there to being your own boss and then, if you’re going to be successful, you’ll find you’re working for the toughest SOB you’ve ever worked for. That’s when the 18-20 hour days 7/24 start but they’ll be fun days because they’ll be your own days and you’ll be building something for yourself and your loved ones, not someone else.

        Dawg ]:)

        • #3240337

          Actually

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The object of the game is not so much to become a millionaire as it is…..

          I think I’m only here as a Scape Goat for the people that I employ and now I’m working harder than ever to keep them employed as to me at least my staff are important and I need a constant stream of work to keep them employed. 😉

          What was supposed to be easy work and a stress free life has gone exactly the opposite way and now it is worse than ever and the worst thing of all is that I only had about 12 hours of what I wanted before I had a complete workforce along with customers.

          I could really murder that SOB who came up with the idea that I would be better off working for myself if only I knew then what I know now I’d have stayed where I was after all it was only 18 hour days and I got every second Sunday off now I’m lucky if I’m not dreaming about computer problems on the few chances when I can get some sleep. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3237039

          Working with

          by itengineerguy ·

          In reply to The object of the game is not so much to become a millionaire as it is…..

          I agree totally to “There is no earthly reason why you should be ‘selling’ your wares to one company exclusively.”

          I work with a great company and seem satisfied for now. But, I still sell my services to other companies after hours and weekends. I have repeat customers and if my full-time employer says by, I am still employed for myself.

        • #3242997

          I find that an extremely self-centered viewpoint

          by l.harper ·

          In reply to The object of the game is not so much to become a millionaire as it is…..

          I am the first to admit that due to my limited background I’m a bit naive and sheltered from typical corporate thinking. But I can’t help but be shocked and somewhat disgusted by this blatantly selfish logic.

          I work with a wonderful team of 23 bright and creative individuals who work together to achieve our company’s utmost potential. If I for one moment felt that any one of those people, myself included, carried the attitude of “you work for yourself and you’re only at that company for the pay check”, they would be out the door.

          Now don’t misunterstand me. I am one of those who believe wholeheartedly that you “work to live” not “live to work”. When it comes to my life priorities, my job falls well down the list.

          However, I also cannot fathom how anyone could spend a massive portion of their waking hours in something they have no loyalty to, and therefore cannot feel a real part of, but sees it as only a means of feeding their own selfish ambition.

          It is just that back-stabbing, climb-over-anyone-in-your-way, everyone-for-themselves attitude that perpetuates the “corporate monster” so many on these forums despise.

        • #3237760

          Well while not common in IT

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I find that an extremely self-centered viewpoint

          It is very common in other areas of big business I’ve personally seen far too many examples of it from the time I spent working for big business and I’ve fired a few IT staff who felt that way as well they didn’t cut in in my section so they left as they where only there for their weekly pay check and would just waste time and generally be nonproductive and even worse consume time by other staff who where already covering for them.

          Recently a new term has been coined for some in business calling them Psychotic of something as they regularly demean people and take the credit for their work to gain advancement and increases in payments.

          While this is not a new thing it is only now being recognized for what it is and in companies where these people work they regularly cause so many problems that the productive staff leave and then they no longer have the ability to take the credit for others work.

          These people are a perfect example of the S##t floating to the top.

          Col ]:)

      • #3255105

        I applaud your efforts.

        by quashie ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        I applaud your efforts and wish you much success with your business. I cannot think of any valid reasons for age bias. In our area, health insurance rates are “community rated.” So, the rates for our business are not dependant on the age of our workers. Moreover, I have seen older workers (even those with serious illnesses) take off far less time from work than younger workers who think nothing of missing work for the flimsiest of reasons.

        What really matters is the individual’s attitude toward learning and staying current in the field. Again, I have seen younger workers who think they are God’s gift to mankind because they have a network certification or an associates degree and I have seen older workers who feel the need to go back to school for advanced degrees in IT or IS.

        An astute manager will know what to look for on a resume and what questions to ask on an interview to find the right candidate. He or she does not have to rely on age as the primary criteria to find a good hire. Unfortunately, this world is filled with hacks who take the easy way out all the time. After all, nobody ever got fired for hiring a recent grad with a good GPA.

        • #3237090

          It Happens

          by crazeycelt ·

          In reply to I applaud your efforts.

          I Grad in 97 with a 3.085 GPA, Neeedless to say I am now back in school for my certifications, a BS in computer sicence along with a AD in info Tech, did not help. I went back to school after 20+ yeas in the US Army. Like staed in the original post I have drawers of letters stateing, We have no postions at tis time for anyone of your education and experiance. I am 55 now and couldnt agree more with the bias as stated.

      • #3255856

        I’ll give you 1 dollar.

        by johnnywatt ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        This post is boring.
        I will give you one dollar to solve this riddle.

        Three men checked into a hotel room for which they paid $30. The next day, the manager realized that the men had been overcharged. She gave the bellhop $5 to return to the three men. On the way to their room the bellhop decided to keep $2 for himself, and give each of the three men one dollar. The three men had now paid $9 each, or a total of $27. This plus the $2 the bellhop kept makes a total of $29. What happened to the other dollar?

        • #3237046

          There’s no dollar missing!

          by doctordisk ·

          In reply to I’ll give you 1 dollar.

          The question you pose is nonsense.
          Initial payment was $30.
          Manager pays back $5 and keeps $25.
          Bellhop pockets $2 and gives each of 3 men $1.
          The 3 men therefore between them paid a total of $27.
          Money received by manager is $27 MINUS the $2 pocketed by the bellhop.
          The missing dollar is only in the head of johnnywat who posed this badly structured math problem.

        • #3242757

          Your math is even better than his

          by lloyddr ·

          In reply to There’s no dollar missing!

          THe way you write it there would be a missing $5.
          This is actually an accounting issue. I saw it the first time in a math riddle book. It has to do with the way the accountants book receivables.
          They show $30 in, $5 out, and $2 Bell hop and each man gets a buck. If you do the math in your head it appears if the $1 is missing but not really. If you do the math sequentialy rather than trying to go backwards. IE $30-$5=$25 + $2 + $3 = $30, rather than $10 each – $1 = $9 *3 +2= Won’t work because of MDAS(MyDearAuntSally) or MultiplyDivideAddSubtract. IE accounting math vs Standard math. Clear as mudd right? I though so too.

        • #3236824

          Math>>>>>>>????????

          by dotxen ·

          In reply to Your math is even better than his

          Lloyd, dear heart, it’s MATHS. Not Math. Please try hard to speak the Queens English correctly.

          Robb.

        • #3242750

          This is a waste of time, but like Johnny, I could not resist

          by lpan1 ·

          In reply to I’ll give you 1 dollar.

          First, let me congratulate Robb for bringing this serious topic to light.

          Now for johnnywatt answer…

          Your riddle is simply a malformed illogical question designed to obfuscate and confuse.

          The faulty reasoning lies in the addition at the end.

          For those with time to waste, you might want to visit http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/trivia/dollar.htm
          Excerpt follows:
          ————————————————-
          Origins: Just about any bit of Internet effluvia, it seems, can be given new life by dressing it up with the claim that sending it along will cause something to “appear on your screen.” Just as forwarding the latest silly message to umpteen friends will not cause a cute video clip to waltz across one’s PC screen, sending this puzzler along to more people will not produce the correct answer (unless one of the recipients writes back with the solution).

          This particular item stumps a good many people because it contains a simple error which is often overlooked due to its deceptive wording. Tracking the money through the transactions reveals that no money has gone missing:

          1) The three men start out with $10 each ($10 x 3 = $30).

          2) The three men pay $30 for a hotel room. Afterwards, a five dollar overcharge is returned to them ($25 + $5 = $30).

          3) The bellboy divides up the $5 overcharge, returning $1 to each of the three men (for a total of $3) and keeping $2 for himself ($25 + $3 + $2 = $30).

          Where did the missing dollar go? Nowhere. A dollar only goes “missing” because the statement “each man paid $9 for the room” is wrong — each of three men paid out a total of $9, but that $9 included both the room charge and the bellboy’s tip. All in all, each man paid out a total of $9 and had $1 left over, completely accounting for the $30 they started with.

          The room cost $25, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($8.33). The bellboy kept a tip of $2, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($0.67) as well. Overall, each man paid out $9 ($8.33 + $0.67) and had a dollar left over: (3 x $9) + (3 x $1) = $27 + $3 = $30.

          Any dollars still left unaccounted for may be sent to us for proper disposal

        • #3237933

          DUH !!

          by bclary ·

          In reply to I’ll give you 1 dollar.

          You gave it to me !!!!

      • #3242834

        The Corporate Way not just in IT

        by techagent ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        I don’t think it will cahnge any time soon, because corporate America is run by the Stock Market and the only thing tha matters to them is the next quarter or at most the next years profits. Because of this corporate managers can’t see beyond the base cost of an employee i.e. salary and benifits. So they would rather continue to train (Break-in) new employees, especially younger ones because they are cheaper, than to higher more experienced ones that don’t need all that training. Even worse is the attitude that they would rather let the older, experienced (more expensive) employees go somewhere else rather than pay them enough to keep them and end up having to higher two new people to take their place and have to train them too. They will continue this cycle avery few years. About the time they get someone trained, they will refuse to pay them what they are worth. Then they start the cycle over again.
        But then what do you expect from a society that wants everything now and can’t see what may be needed down the road.
        I know. I was there too long.

      • #3237681

        Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

        by mail ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        Same in UK. I’ve run my own support company for 7 years now and the rewards (not financial) are great. At 50+ (now 55) I found just the same – no interviews. Any one else who is concnerned, maybe you can work for yourself. There are plenty out there who would prefer a more mature support engineer on their site or in their home, than a youngster (no offence intended to the younger element)
        Greg

        • #3236663

          Gis A Job Mate

          by dotxen ·

          In reply to Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

          In the good old UK then. Well done.

          Where are you. I am based in Wiltshire, down near Stonehenge.

          Are you employing anyone else in your tech-supp business?

          I would be intersted to hear what you have to say about the tpic and your own experiences.

          Robb

      • #3236849

        Can I apply?

        by netsec ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        Can I apply for a job?

      • #3236745

        Good luck to you!

        by ladyjet ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        Hi! I read your information and wish you the best of luck. I’m sure that you’ll do well, but I do have a comment about companies who hire the younger over the older IT persons.
        Part of the reason the companies hire people 30 and younger is that they can pay them less. Let’s face it, even if they pay them $30k/year, it’s still less than they’d pay someone in their 40’s and 50’s who’d want at least $50+k/year with their expernience. Of course, we all know that they wind up letting these people go when they don’t perform, which means they don’t get the experience they need to do the job, but that’s part of big business today: The bottom line and MONEY…
        So, you can probably do well if you do an IT consulting business where they hire IT personnel from a stock of your IT people and pay then on the job basis, rather than the same people working for them at $50+k/year.

        So, again, good luck to you in the future…we’ll be waiting to hear how you do.

      • #3180890

        Really enjoyable!

        by maeseralf ·

        In reply to Two years too soon, and wrong country

        Hi SJunkie!
        I?ve read your post just now, and I like it so much as I’ve keep a copy in my desk, to show it to all those people that deals about a self-job. For me the story is like yours one, and I can’t belive to get working for a thirth person any-time.
        Best regards!
        Ralph Mikel’s

    • #3240638

      It’s the money, isn’t it?

      by wordworker ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I have never believed in attaching a photo with a resume. I assume that employers want to low-ball salary for new hires and they figure that 30-somethings will take less money than 40- or 50-somethings, who have presumably earned and are accustomed to receiving a good salary. So at the end of that proverbial day, it’s about the money, not the quantity or quality of experience.

      I suggest everyone (not just in IT) only go back 10 years on a resume, and leave off dates of graduation or certification. The resume is just to get the interview, not tell your whole work-life story.

    • #3240596

      I Fell for It Too

      by willcomp ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb,

      Hope that you enjoyed my response to your “ageism” post. Basically reinforced your premise that older folks are technically competent.

      However, age discrimination is not confined to IT. It is endemic to industry as a whole, at least here in the US. The first employees downsized are those over 40 and it seem that the only job for anyone over 50 is a greeter at Wal-Mart.

      Dalton

      • #3240443

        Wall Mart Small Mart

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to I Fell for It Too

        I did enjoy your response and thanks for that.

        I say Amen to your observations.

        The thing that strikes me as sad is not that it happens, but that we make light of it and nothing gets changed.

        I am not a sad old git, just a little morose that many of my contempories are just not being valued for nothing more than extra years. That cannot be right and MUST be changed.

        The IT industry is no different to any other in this respect. But that is no reason to tolerate bad behaviour on the part of the recruitment agencies, the government and employers. Unless we make a bloody noise, we will all end up unemployed and poor as we pass 45 ish. Our skills will not get passed on and our industry will be all the poorer for it.

        Happy trails

        Robb

        • #3240339

          Some Consolation

          by willcomp ·

          In reply to Wall Mart Small Mart

          The only good thing is that those young folks taking over will soon have to ante up substantially to cover us baby boomers’ social security and medicare costs (or whatever similar programs exist in the U.K.)

          I’ll be elgible for Social Security in about 4 more years. Revenge is sweet!

          Been good threads and some good observations. Really enjoyed the topic since it’s “close to home.”

          Excellent job Robb.

          Dalton

      • #3237951

        I agree with you Dalton

        by scotty059 ·

        In reply to I Fell for It Too

        We have this same age discrimination here in Canada to. It is not confined to IT either. I think the thing to do, as some have done, is start our own businesses and hire the more mature tech people etc. The one thing for sure about the older worker, especially in tech, is that many have better people skills than the 20 somethings. That means your clients are more at ease.
        Start your own business and in time give the big boys something to think about. My two cents from Canada. Age 46

    • #3240593

      WOW

      by jkaras ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      It appalls me at your finds, as well as it doesnt suprise me at the same time. There are many forms of prejudice that are engaged in today’s world that cant be controlled,race, orgin, past experiences, etc. I am new to the field with a limited amount of experience getting turned down because more experienced workers who tout major experience are out of work taking jobs that they are over qualified for. They are taking jobs because they need the employment taking a huge paycut. The employers are gambling on they will stay, vs investing knowledge in an inexperienced person that will just leave within a two year time frame. The truth is the minute these skilled professionals can find something more in their target pay they leave and the employer is forced to start over again. Some jobs that I have applied for get filled and then reposted two months later. Our vocation as well as other vocations are quite volitile today. Employers to me lately are expecting massive loyalty, huge credentials when they are hiring for far less, non reciprocating employment (training/experience, and laying people off for cheaper labor. Any negativity presented in an interview when explaining why you left a place that couldnt meet your expectations in growth or financial stabilty is frowned upon. I just dont understand the job market these days.

      • #3240521

        Shocked, Shocked top discover

        by bhunsinger ·

        In reply to WOW

        That they want to hire youth. Cheaper, more recently educated etc. I once sent to a boot camp and my roomate was a guy who belonged to the Hair club fo rmen. When he went on an interview before that, he didn’t get called back. With it: three seconds in a row.
        On the other hand, job ads are usually placed after the networking fails- thats were older people have the advantage.

      • #3240438

        Amen To That My Man…

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to WOW

        It is a sad reflection that our industry, one of the richest and one of the most important, with some of the richest and largest corporations in the world, does stoop to prejudice to get the last penny form their staff.

        Microsoft was created by a bunch of young kids/geeks. That same company operates an unofficial ageist policy. Here in the UK microsoft has a major centre in Reading on the M4 corridor, where most of the biggest IT companies are located, Oracle, Lucent and so on. To get a job at Microsoft you have to be under 35. They wil argue and wriggle, but it’s a fact. If you checked out the average age at MS, you will find it’s around 32. Whatever happened to thjose young guys who created Microsoft? They just got old.

        • #3242928

          Perhaps we are looking in the wrong places.

          by andrew martin ·

          In reply to Amen To That My Man…

          From your post above I guess I see the problem thus…

          If the high-tech gurus don’t want to hire you, then that is fine. Perhaps we need to look to other places where the work is.

          There is lots of tech work out there, not being done by a tech simply because the company or firm cannot afford to take on a full time member of staff.

          They would prefer to have someone stable and knowledgeable who will be there when things do not go right.

          THese are the companies that we need to be able to find for ourselves.

          Andrew M

      • #3236996

        some companies do that… others

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to WOW

        troll for employees that another company just got done training!

        Right after I finished a two week Java course, companies were calling me AT WORK offering me jobs!!!

        Now my company doesn’t have a policy on this, but if I were running one, I think I would insist that if I am going to pay for your training, you are going to use that training to improve my company for some minimum specified period of time.

        • #3236959

          License to goof off?

          by texas_gal ·

          In reply to some companies do that… others

          The less principled worker would probably take that as a ticket to ride. And it would violate some state “at will” employment laws. Maybe a policy insisting on the worker paying for the education first, then the company remibursing would stem the tide somewhat. It would buy the company a little time anyway.

        • #3243032

          Yes and no

          by jkaras ·

          In reply to some companies do that… others

          I get your point, but that is the retoric that piliferates the workplace to stop training. The training/experience that I was referring to was in house not a workshop class.

          Everyone wants a successful career and the ability to retire somewhat comfortably, that’s the dream right? We all take a job to progress towards that goal, its understood, give and take. Should you or I work at the same job for life? Will an employer take care of us and our families at our current job to meet increase of cost of living? The truth is that to get better employment is to have documentable experience, not paper degrees. If an employer is “truly professional” he/she wants what’s best for their team. They are paid to look out for everyone’s interest including the company. Investing in the employee to be better at their job displays managorial prowess and increases the quality of work. Each employee should be trained to back up the other, its called redundancy and no administrator worth salt would maintain their network without that priciple wether with computers or personel. IF the employee isnt happy they will leave, if they feel that they are going places, they tend to stay. If they leave, then look at the quality improvement in our field. Right now we are losing jobs to foreign competition becuase of a lack of investment, what you put in is what you get out, and it is being demonstrated everyday. The classic case of training is Home Depot vs. Lowes. Why do you choose one over the other? If each store has the same product at the same price with the same driving distance which company do you choose? You choose the company that trains their employees to know what they are talking about because if their is a problem or question they are going to give you the best answer saving you time and money. Which company has more turnover, why? One chooses to invest and the other treats their employees like a replaceable iddiot.

          Now as for your training work shops then that should be determined through the upper crust on a specific policy of outside training. You appeared to have stayed after that training because your professional and monetary needs were being met now werent they. Imagine if they were not? How about your children wanting a job toward progression in the future? Truth is the future of our economy is also our responsibility if we dont get involved, who will? You cant blame a politician to do everything, trust me I would love too. (man that admission hurt, lol)

    • #3240504

      I don’t get it

      by dr dij ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Why in the world did you put your age on a resume? It isn’t even legal in US for them to ask you your age I believe, even in a face to face interview.

      And your picture? Never seen a resume with someone’s picture on it. (OK, I don’t hire people but still haven’t heard of it).

      Maybe you weren’t hired as they thought you were stupid for putting info you weren’t supposed on the resume.

      • #3240502

        You missed the point entirely

        by stress junkie ·

        In reply to I don’t get it

        The resume with the younger looking picture DID get positive responses.

        • #3240500

          Yes but

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to You missed the point entirely

          Why did he even send a resume with a picture?
          I think he’s getting ‘hard of thinking’ to do that.

        • #3240379

          I’s a standard in the UK

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Yes but

          To put Date of Birth on your cv. There’s no specific law against ageism as far as I’m aware. Would be a waste of time anyway, all they have to do is say wouldn’t have fitted in the team. I should point out that business’s are far more enlightened than the pimps in general. I started a new job today at the advanced age of 42, took me a while to find it though.
          Avoid up to five years experience and salary ranges > 10k. You are wasting your time with those

        • #3241670

          Well Done Tony

          by dotxen ·

          In reply to I’s a standard in the UK

          Good news mate. Here in the UK we do have an ageist attitude. But, there are those that try to overcome it. The ‘pimps’, well they have top look to their turnover and profit margins. However, I shouldn’t be too harsh, as many people of senior years do have good experiences with recruitment agencies. The difficulty is that they are in such a minority.

          This problem is not going to go away. As we, in the UK, get older, and with a low birth rate, the sooner we get wise to the fact that it’s experience that counts and not certificates, the better.

          Having said that, the best scenario is a healthy mix of all ages and both sexes.

          Good luck in your new job.

          Robb

        • #3339027

          Been so busy trying to do

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Well Done Tony

          well, never got chance to reply.
          At this admitteldy early stage things seem to be going OK. Working on putting a training course on MSSQL this week. Got fetched in as an experienced SQL Server guy in development, so now a training skeleton, so they can ask me intelligent questions when mentoring.

      • #3240436

        Age Requirements

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to I don’t get it

        In the UK you have to state your age. Most recruitment companies make it a required field on their web site registration forms. It is always required by an employer prior to interveiw.

        I could be rejected on the spot for misleading an employer if I mistated or didn’t put my age and then turned up to an interview. The question that the employer or recruitment agency would ask is, “Why didn’t you state your age? That behaviour is not inclined to help you get the job. If you lie about that, what else are you keeping back from us?” That, my friend is the problemo.

        • #3255877

          Yep, that’s a problem alright.

          by luckyleatherneck ·

          In reply to Age Requirements

          Yep. Fortunately, in the USA, employers have gone through enough litigation over hiring practices that very little of those “personal” statistics are allowed on employment forms — by the employers own legal advisers. There’s a huge consulting industry here with regard to hiring practices, employment forms, and personnel department procedures.
          Heck, before I got back into computers, and after active duty in the Corps, I must’ve filled our 50 employment apps that got so personal as to ask not only what branch of service I served and how long but what service schools attended and what I learned. Since I was point man for a Raid company with 1st Bn 9th Marines in Vietnam and other exotic places, I really didn’t have schooling nor experience in military computers, trucks, diesel equipment, radio & electronics. I wasn’t getting any hits on the apps I turned in so I re-applied at the company I left years before as a computer operator. This time when I got to the military experience part asking what did I learn, my restraint slackened a bit and I put down; “I learned to kill a man in less than six seconds.” Their VP of Data Processing made the final decision to hire me back (without an interview) commenting; “Maybe he can get some things accomplished down there.”
          Semper Fi.

        • #3237069

          Robb?

          by rapell ·

          In reply to Age Requirements

          so you ask them back if they’d have shortlisted you, if you had stated your real age!! experimento conitnueum

      • #3240424

        Age on Resume

        by black panther ·

        In reply to I don’t get it

        It’s pretty easy to work it out when you read the employment history and then if they did miss that and get an interview they would probably prejudice against him once they saw his age.

        In Australia it’s the same – I have seen it done with my own eyes how the Employer looks at the age ( if it shows ) and puts everyone over 40 in a separate pile or the trash.

        If the age is not on then they look through the work history and the smarter ones soon work it out maybe saving time for both Employer and Employee.

        sad but true

        • #3240361

          But is it wise to leave out dates of employment on resume?

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Age on Resume

          You can’t just lump all of your work experience onto a resume without showing the dates that you worked at those companies. It will look suspicious and make the new employer think that you jump ship quite too often and will raise many red flags. Then again, if you have a college degree, do you not state when you attained that degree? I think it will create more of a question than if you do state relevant dates, but it is illegal for them to explicitly ask your age and marital status unless they have hired you and you are filling out W-4 forms.

        • #3241489

          Yes, leave them out

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to But is it wise to leave out dates of employment on resume?

          You should put last 5-10 years, NO MORE on any resume. Unless it is specifically to impress them, such as ’20 years in a security administrator’. Once you have an interview and would like an employment app filled out, you can put earlier jobs, tho few will ask more than that.

          If you did lots of interesting things before that, put a summary of them in an experiences or capabilities paragraph.

          You can put education but no reason to list the dates. You just put how many years you attended, and if you got a degree. There really is no point to putting the date on there.

          Sure they might find out anyway but if you do it this way, they look at your qualifications more immediately. If they want to find out your age they’ll have to call you in for an interview.

        • #3256222

          and then..

          by black panther ·

          In reply to Yes, leave them out

          once they see you they discriminate against you ( directly after the interview ) and most likely you have wasted your and their time!!

          I have seen it happen a lot unfortunately!!

          Then the next time they look at CV’s the ones without any age mentioned are left out!

        • #3256153

          Or more importantly they may think

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to and then..

          That you at the very least have mislead them by omission and if you are willing to do that what else are you willing to do that is not in their best interests?

          Besides killing it for yourself you are hurting others as well.

          Col ]:)

        • #3256099

          Omission not a lie

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to Or more importantly they may think

          Hey, I know this from Star Trek.

          And like I said all you did was present them with more pertinent info, your experiences and job history. If they call you in they’re already interested in those qualities.

          Now you’re sounding like a defeatist too. Don’t think you’re eggs are broken before you step on them [sic] ?

        • #3255591

          It all depends on the LAWS that are applicable where you are

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Or more importantly they may think

          Also I’ve seen CV thrown into the waste basket just because they lacked a birth date but that is the LAW here and it may be different in other places. 🙂

          Sorry for sounding defeatist I had a bad day yesterday where nothing that I touched worked the way it should have. I couldn’t even get a new out of the box router to work the Bloody thing was broken and I only drove 50 KMS to get there. Good thing that I didn’t supply the thing but I also didn’t think to take another one along with me just in case so I had a trip back to base to pick one up and then back there again to setup their gateway and in a few days I’ll be going back there just to install the new one that has been sent out to them by their ISP and taking mine home again. 😀

          It’s days like yesterday that make the good days feel so great but I just wish they where not with a new customer on the first visit. 🙁

          Col ]:)

        • #3256105

          If they see you they already like you

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to and then..

          They wouldn’t ask for an interview unless they were impressed with resume or phone call.

          Sure they could discriminate later but at that point they’re less likely to dismiss you out of hand.

          It’s a defeatist attitude to assume you’re going to lose because you’re older, probably self-fulfilling prophecy to some degree.

        • #3242776

          How long have you lived in a bubble?

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to If they see you they already like you

          At 50, I recently had a face to face interview with a 20-something HR manager who made three grave mistakes. First, he asked “How long do you intend to work?” It was apparent to me that he was thinking about retirement issues already. Second, he should have had an IT rep there with him as he obviously knew nothing about IT. And third, he inquired on my accent. I am Canadian born but I have lived in the US for the last 15 years.
          I was invited to a second interview but declined because of this first encounter. I had no intention of placing my aging career in this bozo’s hands.

        • #3237061

          true dat

          by rapell ·

          In reply to and then..

          sounds funny but its a fact. and it gets worse if ethnicity comes in….they’ld rather employ a 55 yr old white man than a 45 yr old black man, or the other way round depending on who’s cooking the soup.

        • #3242925

          So, which is worse???

          by oldjags ·

          In reply to and then..

          …getting discriminated against without the opportunity of an interview, or getting the chance in a face-to-face to perhaps overcome some of the prejudices? If you can’t, then you’re no worse off than before. But, if you can, then you’ve struck a blow for equality.

          I’ve seen many cases where the interview went so well that factors that might have otherwise excluded someone suddenly become less important. Granted, your odds of landing the position may be less, but they’re 0% if you can’t get the interview in the first place.

          Every job interview is nothing more than an opportunity to sell yourself, and if you’re a good salesman, you can often overcome a lot of objections.

          The most important thing is to get the interview – I’ve got no reservations at all about wasting their time. That’s what they’re being paid to do.

        • #3255892

          Experience limit on Resume

          by luckyleatherneck ·

          In reply to Age on Resume

          I tell everyone that age and birth date have no place on a Resume and to limit their experience history to 20 or 10 years. If the hiring people don’t guess the age right away from the experience, then the IT Manager examining the details for competency surely will.
          Of course, I also tell them to leave the walker at home.

        • #3243017

          Stuck in the same spot

          by han810p9 ·

          In reply to Experience limit on Resume

          Good idea – I have 30 years experience, and I probably should leave off the earliest – but how many? Should I take off 10 -15 years?

          I am having a terrible time finding a job, and I think it is due to both my age, and my experience. Whil I can probably pass for 40 – 45, my length of experience shows my age, particularly since I started work at 17….

        • #3242920

          So what do I do

          by andrew martin ·

          In reply to Age on Resume

          I am going to be 42 this year and moving countries again back to Australia from the US and the apprehehnsion level is really quite high at home at the moment.

          We’ll be OK for a few months while I try and find work but I have weddings and university to save for our two kids. I need a reasonabel level of income. I’m not old by any means but I am old-school and I know the business side as well as the tech side so I amore than hopeful that something will pop up.

          But really what is the best approach to getting something in the industry. Be flexible? Be ready to move the family at the drop of a hat? Help!

          Andrew Martin
          Texas and headed for Oz as soon as poss…

        • #3237750

          Well I’m probably the wrong person to answer

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to So what do I do

          As I walked out on Big Business a few years ago. But the important thing is to sell yourself at the interview. Most often you’ll be faced with a wet behind the ears HR person who knows absolutely nothing at all about the position that they are interviewing for.

          Then if you at the very least confuse them or impress them they will pass your CV onto the right people who do the actual hiring and firing I used to be in this position and it really drove me nuts as I would get a couple of CV’s passed to me and they where all not qualified for the job in hand. On more than one occasion I went through all the CV’s that had been submitted for the position myself and chose the ones who I wanted to see and mostly they where a bit peeved off with their treatment by the people who where supposedly helping me and screening the applicants. Some of the ones that I really wanted to talk to or even knew of by reputation wouldn’t even accept phone calls from me because of the way that they had been treated by the first person to interview them.

          They where the hardest to deal with and most often the ones that I really wanted so I had to go well out of my way to even get them to talk to me and eventually work at the place where they had previously stated they would never again contemplate working at.

          Don’t get me wrong it’s not easy particularly when you get some pimply faced youngster doing the hiring and firring as they themselves feel superior to everyone and are threatened by your abilities. The fact that you have business knowledge can work for you in some instances and against you in others it all depends on how secure in themselves the department managers feel.

          I hope that is of some use to you but stick to the major Cities like Sydney or Melbourne or maybe even Darwin at least it is warm there and you don’t get all 4 seasons in a hour like you can in Melbourne some days. Right at the moment Darwin is screaming out for a lot of trained staff not necessarily in the IT sector but a lot of people either have not got the qualifications or have just been head hunted and moved away to bigger cities further south. It’s worth a look at the very least.

          Col ]:)

        • #3169633

          Darwin yes!

          by gary.woodman ·

          In reply to Well I’m probably the wrong person to answer

          > Right at the moment Darwin is screaming out for a
          > lot of trained staff not necessarily in the IT
          > sector but a lot of people either have not got the
          > qualifications or have just been head hunted and
          > moved away to bigger cities further south. It’s
          > worth a look at the very least.

          I endorse this comment! I worked in Darwin for 13 years (even had my own IT consulting business), and it is a very interesting place to be. On the edge of nowhere, but powerfully interesting. At age 54, I’m about to be made redundant, and I’m seriously considering going back there.

      • #3241365

        actually

        by jkaras ·

        In reply to I don’t get it

        Every application I have ever filled out wether on paper or on the web had date of birth as mandatory information for employment. It’s there to qualify employment under labor laws that you dont misrepresent your age and work under a liability, like too young to be employed, operation of dangerous equipment, or physical limitations. You could omit it but I doubt you will get a call back. AS for the picture it was a progressive idea back five years ago. The strategy was to place a name with face amidst thousands of other resumes. It was a easy trick to be more noticed. Also studies have shown that attractive people with less credentials tend to get hired better than less attractive people with more credentials. Curious what type of doctor are you?

        • #3256097

          Hello

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to actually

          I still don’t get this defeatist cr*p attitude.

          You usually don’t fill out an application till you’ve got an interview, at which point they’re likely to be interested in your experience and job skills, and have seen you anyway.

        • #3255240

          ???????????

          by jkaras ·

          In reply to Hello

          Uh most employers require first an application to be filled out then accompanied by a resume (or a refusal for one(resume) till the application process has been completed and interview given) when responding to a job posting. If you are referring to blanket mailing of resumes to every place of business that hasnt posted a job opening that you are directly applying for, then the application isnt in the equation. When you show up for the interview they make you fill out the application prior to your interview. Almost all companies nowadays use online applications for employment protocol. They like to use this method to ensure equal opprotunity employment liability as well as a easier method to sort through the amount of applications accepted daily. They can specify certain profeciencies to be picked up in their filters, then start the process of checking the alleged credentials. All applications have a date of birth. It helps prove your existence not false aliases.

          How exactly was my previous post defeatist? It was a statement of fact with an explination of why a photo is included if someone decides to in the attempt to increase their chances by doing so. The studies have been proven time and time again that attractive people have an advantage in interviews, life, or what have you. A good looking person with X amount of credentials dressed to impress and another person who is over weight with less hair wearing the same exact suit with the same exact credentials who answered the questions exactly the same applies. The result; the better looking person gets the job a large majority of the time why? Because we equate interest in what we find attractive, we buy into the packaging, not the quality. That is life, that is the truth, its not defeatist. If what I said was false then why do we have to get dressed up for a job? We wont wear those clothes everyday to work or put on a display like that, its called selling yourself. Being deafist is saying I cant so I just quit. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I also asked you for your credentials to your self appointed title of Dr. apparently you failed to back your title as it looks only like an alias. I’ll change mine too, I think I will use the title of President! Now bow before me and kiss my pinky ring, lol. Just kidding dude.

        • #3255547

          Wouldn’t Pope

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to ???????????

          Be better for that alias? 😀

          I for one actually hate the title DR as it gives people the wrong impression that you are involved in medicine and I’ve found that those who are impressed with a bunch of letters after your name aren’t worth impressing in the first place and those that actually understand what they mean think of you as being pretentious on job applications at least. 😉

          The only time I’ve ever used all of those silly letters after my name is on Legal Reports that are quite likely to end up in Court Action otherwise I just prefer to forget them all together. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3257146

          Well

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to ???????????

          I guess I don’t remember filling out an app first. You’re right, my GF found apps online to fill out. But mostly she emailed resume. I think companies realize much of the time that people DONT WANT to fill out apps before the call back stage, waste of time as they’re mostly thrown out.

          The photo thing is odd tho. I didn’t realize ANYONE sent photos with apps. I consider myself good looking but never would send photo with app.

          Also that was part of my point, I’ve filled out apps when show up at interview but this guy was saying the employer had his age, etc before interview.

          Perhaps because it was thru an agency, and while I hadn’t put my age down, and purposely left off grad dates, and only last 10 years of employ, they did have the agency info ahead of time.

      • #3255059

        I second that…..

        by is girl ·

        In reply to I don’t get it

        I have to agree that a resume with a pic might be discarded by HR because it’s so out of the ordinary – unless you are looking for a job in television or such.

        And,putting references to your age anywhere on your resume is unwise because you may play into biases against age regardless of if you are too young or too old. After all, what is the perfect age for an IT employee?

        As a hiring manager, I can say that I am excited when a mature candidate shows up for an interview because they will most assuredly make more responsible employees than their 20 something counterparts.

        The biggest strike against IT workers in their 40s and 50s is the money. They are more suited for managment level positions because of the salaries they command.

        • #3255544

          And the funny thing

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I second that…..

          Is they don’t want management positions because they like to get their hands dirty with their work because if you are not doing it most of the day you do get left behind as the technology races on. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3255750

          Just curious

          by jkaras ·

          In reply to And the funny thing

          Whose eyeball is that? Everytime I see it it just looks creepy. I invision the eyeball from squids or octopus (octopi?) like the cartoons would always have peeking into something to get the main character. I’m sure its human since it looks like the person is wearing Ben Franklin bifocals. If I had to guess it looks like the fat guy from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome that says “Break the Deal Spin the Wheel.” (he was a rather cool character, couldnt fight mind you but very imposing)I know he was a very popular actor Down Under, just cant remember his name.

        • #3256937

          I thought everyone knew

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Just curious

          It’s a part of a picture that was taken of me on 7-11 two days prior to that incident I dropped a 2.5 ton car on myself and nearly managed to kill my Boss so he sought of allowed me a 1 week break from work while I was in hospital. He only insisted that I have a LT and mobile phone constantly on hand and a connection for the LT to mobile so I could keep checking my e-mail. 🙂

          My Boss is a real mongrel and I am constantly trying to kill him off but as yet haven’t managed to but just end up hurting myself. It’s one of the joys of being self employed. 😀

          Actually I took it off a while back after too many people e-mailed me insisting that it was following them around the room as they moved about. I had to give them the chance to get used to it before I reposted it. :p

          The complete picture is even worse as I was purple from the chest up and when pulled from under the car was bleeding from the nose, eyes and ears. Apparently the blood could get up to my head but not back down again so I burst a lot of the smaller blood vessels and instead of having “White” in my eyes they where all red. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3257195

          Holy!!!!!!!!!!!

          by jkaras ·

          In reply to I thought everyone knew

          My bad man. That is an amazing story, glad you are ok. I almost had my 68 camero once fall on me while under it when I was a teenager. For once in my life I listened to my older brother and had a jackstand in place. Sure enough the jack slipped and I got a bloody nose only. I was shaking so bad for hours that it took me the whole weekend to finish my repairs. To this day I still get a phobia when going under a car, when that actually happens, I got a Honda now, no wrenching no more!!!!

          On a side note, one of the most disturbing things I saw was a truck driver showed me pictures of an ordeal that had him out for months. Basically he was handing down a door out of his rig when the person started to drop it. Instictfully he re-grabbed the door while holding on to a chain on the truck. The result was he tore about every muscle on his body. The picture showed every, I mean every muscle through translucent skin. He looked like those kids health shows that had a guy dressed in a body suit to point out every muscle in the body. It was soo freakish, major skin crawl.

        • #3238211

          Well in my case

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Holy!!!!!!!!!!!

          It was a 280 SE Mercedes and it fell off the jack stands and they where not those crappy little ones that come from K-Mart but those even crappier ones that come from Snap On. 😀

          To this day I’m still unsure what happened as it had been on the stands for about 2 – 3 days if I remember correctly and I just climbed under it to undo the drive shaft when everything went to Hell in a Hand basket. I was turned on my side and reduced to 10.5 inches think. But what was really funny was that the people around me first instead of jacking up the car where asking me what I wanted done and I couldn’t talk or breath for the matter. I still have a vivid memory of my son asking me what I wanted done and all I was trying to say is “Get this Bloody thing off me!” 🙂

          But it got even worse latter when the meat wagon showed up there I was sitting on the grass smoking a cigarette and they tore strips off me about smoking I was sitting up as well which wasn’t a good idea from their point of view. But they insisted on me lying down cutting off the overalls I was wearing and then trying to insert IV needles into me. When I finally was moved to the meat wagon I had 6 Iv’s in me and latter I was told about the others that had been left lying on the ground out of their packets. Not a very clever idea really that one. But they had I saline IV going which I could sought of understand then where using another to inject morphine which I didn’t really want I’m not sure what the others where in for and I never bothered asking. But the funny thing was that I couldn’t move or I might really hurt myself so they put a neck brace on me then placed me on a backboard then a stretcher that was inserted under me and then assembled then onto the meat wagons rolling gurney. But as they picked me up the guy at my head beer gut was forcing my head down onto my chest now that did hurt. 🙂

          When I got out of the meatworks I immediately got back under the car but only after making sure it was stable I reckon I would need a truck to push it off the jack stands but I’m dammed if I know how it fell. :p

          But the one good thing to come out of it all is that I can now insist that I’m scared to get under a car and do any work on it when the wife demands that I fix her car. Currently it has a 50 cent part that needs replacing and it is a pig of a job so I’m putting it off until I need to do something more extreme. 😀

          You don’t have to be mad but it sure as Hell helps. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3237911

          Few things wrong here…

          by mxyzyptylk1 ·

          In reply to I second that…..

          Most of the HR people I’ve met take the attitude that if you have any real opinions, you’re a troublemaker; they’re also suckers for people who can fake enthusiasm. Hiring as reality show.

          They would normally demand your age on an application just because it’s an additional item of identification. The way things are going, in a couple of years they’ll just scan it off your TSA-implanted RFID tag.

          And the salaries they command? Try being out of a job for a couple of years at age 50, and see how much YOU bid up your salary.

          Management jobs in my area are not what you make of them, they’re a matter of how well you conceal your body armor. Half the managers I knew spent half their time skewering their peers and the other half crippling their bright-and-shinies. Rule one still remains “My company, right or wrong.”

          Older employees probably gravitate to IT admin jobs because they’re sick of dealing with the thrashing of the developer suites, and the endless quest of the younger developer to throw out everything that’s been done up to now to replace it with the latest new, improved version of Visual Basic, C, Java, or Oracle (yes- I’m being deliberately obsolete there: there’s no room for all the versions I could list). In an age when any business risk is treated like the next outbreak of pneumonic plague, some people still try to sell the bosses perpetual motion machines, and then come up with a new approach to chaotic life cycles.

          And foithuhmoah- let’s face it, a new graduate seldom knows what he can and can’t do, or what her rights are, or how to recognize a deathmarch project when he’s in one.

        • #3169626

          Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

          by gary.woodman ·

          In reply to Few things wrong here…

          > And the salaries they command? Try being out of
          > a job for a couple of years at age 50, and see
          > how much YOU bid up your salary.

          Yeah, I thought “command” was a good verb, for sure, for sure. “Plead diplomatically” would be closer to the mark, at least in my case.

          > Older employees probably gravitate to IT admin
          > jobs because they’re sick of dealing with the

          … the crap; there’s plenty in any organisation, corporate, small business, public sector, even working for oneself (as Col so colourfully describes). This older employee (age 54, spent 35 years in the industry TODAY!) gravitated to the technical side pretty quickly, and stayed there. Of course that means that nearly everything I ever learned is now obsolete; lucky I’m an enthusiast as well as a dour old fart. Things change even in garbage collection and (dare I say it) sales, marketing, and HR; stagnation is not the future.

    • #3240427

      Well done Rob!

      by black panther ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      and the best of luck!!!

      • #3236826

        G’day Mate

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Well done Rob!

        Thanks. It was nothing!

        Robb.

    • #3240412

      The Irony

      by docbrown ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Thanks, Robb. Like many others, I also replied to your ‘Ageism’ topic, in a rather cynical manner. The real truth on hiring practices in the USA ( and apparently, in the UK) belies the regulations and guidelines that should prevent such discrimination.

      It’s ironic to me that in my life, I went into IT/IS in the early 70’s because my department at ITT was laid off and replaced by an IBM System 370 FixIT computer! I could take losing my job to automation, but losing an automation job to prejudice? I really believed that the change in professions was a good one, but honestly, it wouldn’t matter if you were making doughnuts; the mindset of age discrimination would still be there. What worries me too is that my current status as a disabled veteran acts as a ‘double-edged sword of denial’ when applying for a job.

      I think you’re on to something that needs to be addressed by the IT industry. The fictitious character in the ‘ageism’ scenario is more reality than fiction. Perhaps you can publish your findings, no matter how unscientific the results appear to be. If I were in a position, I’d hire you in a second.

      PS..Have you ever thought aboput revealing your findings to the organizations that denied you a position?

      • #3241628

        I Agree

        by hdrconsultant ·

        In reply to The Irony

        I also beleive that the scenario is more reality than fiction.

      • #3241615

        Another Irony

        by hdrconsultant ·

        In reply to The Irony

        Hello everyone:

        I am new to this forum and pleased to find one related to IT that is not full blown egos.

        I think there is another irony to all of this. I believe that Ageism is a reality and whether we like it or not we have to face it. I am a middle aged man, is 50 middle aged? I guess it is if I live to be 100.

        Companies do hire the younger applicants for a number of reasons but what ever those reasons are the other irony is that they spend a lot of money engaging with season veteran consultants to instruct, assess or oversee their operations.

        This time the table turns because they discriminate against the younger consultant that does not have the experience they require. I have experience this. Last year I was invited to bid on a Disaster Recovery Planning project for a large healthcare provider and out 10 consultants I was the oldest, I meant the senior. All the younger resources where overlooked because they lacked the business and technical experience or the frequent flyer mileage I presented. In most cases you wind up making in two to three months what you probably would make in six months pending on your hourly or fixed rate.

        My point is that older IT resources seeking employment may have an opportunity to do something different and at the same time work in the environment you are experienced in. We have to turn a negative in to a positive and maybe consider that at this point of our lives we are at a higher level than those required to fill a position at an IT department.

        Maybe we sould all get together and create this huge global consulting firm and employ each other.

        Good to be hear.

      • #3256092

        Bogus – Flaws in your findings

        by dr dij ·

        In reply to The Irony

        I’m not saying people don’t age discriminate, but you went about it wrong. It was kind of like adding to the bottom of your resume, “while I’m the perfect employee technically, etc, I can’t help being a 450 pound slob who eats at my desk and has body odor and is out alot due to health problems.”

        It may be what you are but you’re sticking info you don’t want them to decide on in before they need to know it. If it is really unimportant in your case (you’re not going senile, and can still do the job fine) then you should have left it out.

        You should have NOT put age or grad dates on resume, and only last 5-10 years employement, which is typical here.

        It would be more realistic if you compared job offers after interviews and filled out applications, at which point you might have needed to put such personal info in writing for the potential employer. Tho I don’t know how you could make a young version of yourself as the control.

        • #3242844

          age on resume?

          by marathoner ·

          In reply to Bogus – Flaws in your findings

          it would seem from these other posts that in Europe age is a required so Robb’s study is not as flawed as it would seem to us in the USA. I recently applied for a job where there was a form in the packet that required my birth date. I was appalled because in the USA it is illegal to ask for age and birth date is tantamount to the same thing. I have a friend who works for that outfit and she got me the “updated” version of the form, where suddenly now your birthdate is “optional” beside ethnicity and gender. It really doesn’t matter: the young ones use their 70’s early 80’s birth year as a selling point, and anyone who leaves it off will be assumed to be a geezer. So my new tack is to do it in fountain pen (OMG who but a geezer would use one of those!!) and then “accidentally” splash a tiny drop of water on it so the year part is ambiguous. It’s amazing how much 6 and 8 are alike when they get wet.

    • #3241590

      Can I get a job at my age

      by gojints ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I just left a blistering (for me) reply to your original post – my apologies.

      To answer your question, yes you can. You just applied to stupid companies. As I just replied in your other post, my company just hired someone I believe is around your age (we can’t ask you know) as a developer. She’s out doing guys half her age who ‘know everything’. You just have to find the right company.

      I’m ‘older’ for the company as well. My 50th is next month. I am the office manager, MS Office expert, just got my MOS for Word Expert and am heading for MOS Office Expert before November. Any questions on Word, Excel and PowerPoint are logged to me in our help desk.

      It sounds like the HR departments need some help in remembering there is an age discrimination law on the books – even if the current administration would probably like to repeal it.

      Keep going – and good luck

      • #3256229

        Robb is in the UK

        by skidoggeruk ·

        In reply to Can I get a job at my age

        and the age box does seem mandatory here

      • #3237687

        In The UK

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Can I get a job at my age

        We don’t have any age descrimination laws right now.

        Apparently the Europeans are putting something together for next year. I guess it willl seep across the water to us.

        In the meantime, it’s all about spreading the word, encouraging change and staying angry.

        Robb

    • #3241407

      Word from the middle child – 30 something

      by k.h. ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’ve worked with people of all ages in IT. In the past, I had to “carry” someone who refused to learn anything new, both who were over 40 and who were younger than 22. The one over 40 was stuck in the novell 3.11 days and refused to move on by 1997. It was their choice but truly sad. When they had to do admin duties, they would quietly call me and ask me to go show them how to take care of the server, etc. After declining training on Novell 4 and 4.11, they were nicely “moved” to another department doing basic support on legacy systems. The one younger than 22 had zip experience, just textbook knowledge. It was so frustrating having to “carry” them as well. But the difference was they were arrogant enough to back talk and didn’t want to to learn, they wanted to play Doom and other computer games on the company network. It was sad, but we all have a choice to learn something new and keep up with changing technology, regardless of our age. Being in the IT field is interesting and dynamic in nature.
      I’ve worked with people over 40 who were the perfect mentor – new a lot more than I did and also had the experience to back it up. I’ve also worked with people under 20 who were sharp and quick to learn – would eventually know a lot more than I would by the time they reached their 30s.
      What matters more is their intellect, not their age, in my opinion.

    • #3256357

      Over 50 Can Get Work

      by gpmcdonald ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Try applying for work in the educational sector. I changed careers by going back to school at age 46 and began working for the college that granted my degree at age 50. After two years I moved across the country and used that experience and recent degree to get hired on at a major university. Unlike the commercial sector it seems colleges and universities dont care as much about age, only ability.

    • #3256307

      And thats the truth. . . .

      by av . ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Its true, there is ageism and I am glad you posted the topic because it is a huge problem in our field and getting bigger by the day. I’m not sure I like being deceived with your previous post, but ok, I’ll go with the flow.

      I think you have to look for the right company if you are older. Corporate America has a younger culture unless you are in management. If you want tech support there, forget it, its a longshot. They want young.

      Smaller companies offer more opportunity for the older worker or working in education or non-profit. Be prepared to accept less money.

      Honestly, its a real kick in the pants. They don’t teach this in school – after 20 or 30 years of loyal service, you are parked on the bench or eliminated because you are older even if you are qualified. I never thought I would encounter ageism. I thought I could retire in this field with no problem. I never took into account globalization or high health care costs for older people.

      I’m old enough to remember when people used to retire with honors from a company. Why can’t we have that today? Why isn’t that important anymore? You have to give alot of yourself to work in IT. It requires alot of dedication if you do it right. Its such an unhappy ending for people that gave so much.

      I hope, Robb, that you will publish the results of your post somewhere good. There’s alot of us wrinkly’s out there that are absolutely fabulous. We’re all driving sports cars too. We can walk and talk and we know the ropes.

      • #3255230

        agreed just look at..

        by jkaras ·

        In reply to And thats the truth. . . .

        American Airlines!!! Holy cow, imagine that was you who put in double digit years of service and loyaly banking on the pension only to have it taken away, that promise of long term stability taken away because some big wigs made bad choices? If this goes through it could cripple America that every corporation can run itself into the ground, declare chapter 11, get rid of excess baggage and then make an upword climb back into the fight leading the market. The only obsticle is backstabbing the people that made your company successful in the first place. Nice pr. Our economy is in for some hard times, my friend.

        • #3255588

          You can’t count on anything anymore

          by av . ·

          In reply to agreed just look at..

          Its not there, its just a big lie. I think a judge approved United Airline’s request to be taken over by the federal government yesterday. The workers will all have reduced benefits as a result. The senior executives are not feeling the pain, I’m sure.

          A company like United or American can just write that debt off or shift responsibility and then start fresh. Seems to me that the airlines are always in bankruptcy. But – you and I can’t declare bankruptcy anymore and “start fresh.” We have to pay off our creditors. Hmm – maybe I should incorporate myself . . .

          The bottom line is there is nothing thats guaranteed anymore even if its supposed to be. If you think you have Social Security, consider how you could retire if you only had half of what they say you get. Your 401k if you have one. How reliable is that really?

          Our economy is in major trouble, its downright scary. It is going to be a real challenge to even be able to retire. I think it will probably be a working retirement for me and alot of other people. I’d rather keep working, though probably part-time, because I’m afraid that one day my nest egg won’t be enough and I’ll have work.

          Welcome to the new retirement for the common man. Only the top executives don’t feel the pain. Not fair. The captain should go down with the ship.

      • #3237688

        I have tried…

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to And thats the truth. . . .

        To answer as many of the posts here and on my previous topic. I have also spent the last week responding to the massive mail-box that I have generated. It’s great to know that I am not alone on my little island in the Altlantic in my quest for the holy grail. That is to make a small contribution toward a fairer and more equitable workplace in my industry.

        From the number of posts I can see that there is a problem, and not just here in the UK. YOu guys over there in the US and Oz, Kiwi land and Canada, Mexica and many other countries have exactly the same problems with the attitude of society toward the 40+ valuable, experienced and precious resource that we are.

        Robb

    • #3256066

      Interesting…

      by martimus ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Now this is a quite interesting application of your test. EVERY journal I’ve ever read on resume building and interviewing techniques seems to agree that its a really BAD idea to make direct reference to your age. Hmm… maybe you purposely set yourself up for failure in your first go-around.

      In a marketplace where (outside of India) there are NOT more IT jobs than qualified workers maybe its a bad idea to try to impress recruiters with information inappropriate for a resume?

      • #3237016

        That Is ‘Stuffy’ Response

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Interesting…

        No offence, but I think you might have missed the point, or more likely I have failed to make it properly.

        In the UK there are more IT vacancies than we have skilled and appropriate people to fill them. I can’t speak for the USA, but I detect from my Americam colleagues and friends, that in some areas this is also the case. Here in the UK we are outsourcing and bringing in people from Eastern Europe and the Far East to fill out technical vacancies. India provides a very high percentage of our incoming techies. And yet there are many many unemployed and under-utilised mature and experienced indigenous people ready and wating to get going.

        With all these skilled and knowledgeable folk raring to go, why are so many people (mature and experienced) failing to get a job? Why are so many people here, angry and disallusioned about their age in relation to their industry?

        I do not have any answers. I only posed the question/statement about the problem of prejudice based on age.

        Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.

        Robb

    • #3255261

      Ooooops!

      by kevaburg ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Ok I admit it! I am one of those people with egg on my face! Having just submitted my comments to your earlier post I thought you were a young sprite with the wrong attitude! For that I apologise and I retract my insults!!! (Ouch!)

      BUT, I do stand by the experience related side of my comment. I think that nowadays, the youth tend to move jobs reasonably regularly say for example, every two or three years. But because they are young they can find more work.

      The older we get the more carefully we need to think about job moves and career transitions and that could be the answer to the questions posed by your resettlement students.

      You sound like a Brit and if so, you might understand what I mean by the experience issues that arose during “Options” in the 90’s. IT has become too much a part of everyday life and for almost every business, a mission-critical asset to allow that sort of mistake to be made again.

      • #3237025

        Patriot

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Ooooops!

        I am a Brit’ and very proud of it.

        My experience is not unique and I know I have no monopoly on the truth. I just happened to have the time to do the test and felt strongly enough to want to write about it and get others to wise up and take note.

        The topics I have contributed are particularly elequent and neither do they represent a unique view. But, they have generated some of the highest and most intense responses. That’s all I could ask for.

        I hope that some people in positions to make change will have read the responses and thought a little more deeply about the consequences to all of us, our industry and our countries, of perpetuating this bad and negative behaviour.

        Robb

    • #3255213

      Fell? I wouldn’t say that exactly.

      by mckendrick ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I posted a response to “Ageism…” and I stand behind what I wrote. However it turns out reality already has kicked you in the teeth so to speak (see my other post). I waded through many posts (at last count there were over 250) before throwing in my two cents in an admitted effort to reinforce what it seemed EVERYONE else was saying in response to your post. I’m not bothered that you “posed” as someone you’re not. I am, however bothered by two other things:

      1.) that I shot off at the mouth before doing more homework even if I didn’t say anything I don’t truly believe

      2.) and most important: That the results of your “experiment” were as you describe.

      I agree with most everyone who posted under you; knowledge and ability (to waaay oversimplify) should determine the viability of an applicant as a prospect. I do the hiring for my department and I was taught a long time ago that “You can train a skill, not an attitude.” It does not speak well for society in the UK (and likely here in the US) that HR departments have forgotten this.

      The fact that so many of the posts under “Ageism…” were to chastise you is heartening in part. However, one of the posters pointed out that he wished you had taken a different tack in your initial effort to provoke debate. Perhaps he/she has a point. The tone of your post was that of an arrogant, young, closed-minded tech; perhaps there are more people out there who would have agreed with your stated ideals were your post less polarizing. What I mean to say is, some may agree, but may not want to agree with someone who sounds so overboard.

      Best of luck to you in whatever comes along next…

      • #3237031

        Point Taken

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Fell? I wouldn’t say that exactly.

        Good post, I take your point.

        I have written an article for the UK newspapers. So far only two editors have replied to me and indicated an interest. I guess the problem is that my article does’nt contain too much in the way of sex, drugs and violence.

        Say la vee, as the say in France.

        Robb

    • #3255085

      Glad I’m over 40.

      by davidsmo ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’ve been working in IT since before it was called IS (that’s not a typo) and on computers since before there was an IS. That’s about (takes off shoes – “3; borrow the 1; carry the 6”) 25 years now. The last 19 or so of that has been on unix and the last 10 has been as an admin/consultant. Age and experience work to my advantage … not hinderance. I, like most everyone here probably, have been baptised by fire so many times that it’s like taking a dip in the pool … now. There’s something very reassuring to your boss and those around you when you display (with quiet confidence, passing off stress with a sweep of the fingers across the keyboard) the ability to calmly, effectively and accurately resolve an issue – be it programming, administrative or anything else. When you can sit there and give them a definitive, concise procedure for the layout, design and implementation of something everyone else has been struggling with because of some problem. It’s all age, knowledge and experience that does that. You understand what Will Sonnet (Walter Brennan) meant when he said, “No brag, just fact.”

    • #3255041

      age discrimination?? could be!

      by ed ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I have been applying for a systems admin. job in an Arizona county IT dept. in the place I wanted to retire to. the same position has been open 8 times over the last 5 years. They get a young know-it-all every time. I am not sure why they keep losing their young know-it-alls but I average working about 12 years per job I get. I begin to wonder what it’s costing them to fill and refill the position. I am a tad over qualified for the position but wanted to finish my last 15 working years and not have to move to retire.

    • #3255695

      Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      by clivey9999 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I must admit, I had egg all over my shirt ;-).
      My initial reaction was… well not appropriate for a public facing log. Good on you for starting it and testing it – and logging it! I.T. is ALL about experience – even if the OSes have changed. Good luck sir in whatever you decide to do.

    • #3255671

      Good Job!! Well Done!!

      by nickinsd2004 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      My reply to your “Ageism” post was based on the statements you made in your post.

      You have proven a valid point in your post above.

      I was hired into my current position in IT support at the tender age of 56. …but I can pass for 55.

      Best wishes for the future!

    • #3255542

      Robb

      by ebenezet ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I have been out of work for 3.5 hrs but I have a small computer company now fixing, upgrading and networking pc’s….I think it is pathetic the attitiude some folks have about older folks…I am 58, worked for IBM for 18 1/2 yrs in past….I keep up with the latest trends but no one will hire me…Guess I am supposed to crawl into a hole and die…WELL I WONT….so sorry to those out there that would love it….I also teach computer to young folks and older folks….

      • #3255506

        30 years of experience

        by hal72940 ·

        In reply to Robb

        Let me see if I can remember back that far. I built my first computer in 1974 from articles in Popular Electronics magazine. I have written software in most programming languages and have led crisis management teams on projects that would make your hair turn white. Microsoft wasn’t even an idea when I started and Bill Gates was still trying to figure out how to get a date.

        Now, 30 years later I am semi-retired and get calls from IT “whiz-kids” because they have no idea why the software upgrade isn’t working or how to read a program written in COBOL.

        There us an old saying that “Youth is wasted on the young.” That seems more appropriate today than at any other time is last 50 years.

        I just hope that todays young IT “professionals” will someday understand why it takes more than education to make them truly Professional.

      • #3237685

        Hmmm

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Robb

        Not disimilar to my own situation a while ago.

        Oh yes, one more thing. There’s not much room in the hole. Fairly crowded I believe.

        Robb

    • #3256028

      Age Prejudice

      by myshadow04 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I just turned 50, I have been in the IT field since 1993, but for nearly 2 1/2 years I have been semi umemployed. Too me it si true that companies do not want to invest in older people regardless of their experience. Over the last 2 plus years I have sent out more resumes than I can remember. I heard back on just a handful. On my resume I did not stated my military years, so I would not age myself (I did this at the suggestion of a headhunter, who told me let them find out my age when they interview me). This I belive helped me get the few interviews that I did receive. I believe the age stopped them from hiring, even tho would not say that.

      So do I believe in Age Prejudice? Yes VERY MUCH.

    • #3255965

      NUTS!

      by ironmousetrap47 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I am 57 and have done most of my IT work in Government. I believe that age becomes a factor in IT because of the often insane, often irrational, often destructive pace at which the industry evolves. Older folks like myself have seen fads come and go and move a bit more cautiously into new technology than the younger of the genre. That caution is often seen as resistance, even stagnation, when in fact it is simply a sincere desire and objective to minimize wasted energy and anticipate blind alleys. Folks my age applying for work in the IT industry must wear propeller beanies in order to impress and identify with the prevailing powers that be. As Paris Hilton, in her infinite wisdom would say, “That’s hot”.

    • #3255920

      IT exists but IT is changing

      by luckyleatherneck ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Okay, so you’re not the 20 something egotistical neophyte I thought you were. But 30 years ago I sure was.
      Yes, ageism still exists today, and your unscientific test is good, but it is changing, although slowly. It is changing because industry is finding that, although one wiz-kid can put up some impressive Java results, the entire train of systems and interfaces to those systems needs thorough anaylsis and a well documented development plan to keep that train from jumping the tracks. Yes, some older folks wouldn’t grow out of their comfort zone. I’ve got a friend, older than me if you can imagine it and already retired 20 years, that specializes in Assembler Code on IBM Mainframe computers. But he’s still working today one contract after another because there’s a ton of existing code that needs fixes and interfaces. I also ran into a situation with an insurance company here that told me, as a recruiter, not to send the “old guys” because they didn’t want to here how it used to be.
      The last people to accept change are the change agents themselves — IT Professionals. But people are living longer and healthier. Our motto 30 years ago was; “20 years from now nobody will care, and we’ll either be dead or too senile to be responsible.” And then everyone (and I do mean everyone) was working 80 hours a week on Y2K to fix everything. Young hot shots grow old at the same rate as everyone else. Those that remain viable at 50 and after are starting to focus more on the three things I mentioned in my last reply without regard to age.
      So, what do you tell the lads?
      Lucky

      • #3237095

        Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

        by rocky530 ·

        In reply to IT exists but IT is changing

        I am 61 and have been looking for a job for a year. I got a million calls because I have an impressive resume. But, when I show up for the interview, they never called me back. I finally found a good job because my boss hired me over the phone. He is not sorry, I know my stuff. But it is a bitch out there. I am lucky to be working.

        • #3243042

          And the really silly thing is

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

          That now you’re working you are far more likely to be offered another job by a different company who already know your age but also know how well you work.

          Most likely they will be one of the companies who wouldn’t employ you at first.

          Try figure that one out.

          Col ]:)

    • #3255771

      Age discriminators in IT are insecure persons

      by Anonymous ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I am 54 years old and so far I applied for at least 300 open positions, withing my experience and skills, and even lowered my pay expectations, but to no avail.

      I think there are two categories of age discriminators in the IT hiring affairs: one is much younger network specialists in charge who are intimidated by older and more thoughtful and experienced persons seeking employment. The second, unfortunately, are IT managers or executive managers in business who themselves have dead brains at young age and survive on politics, cliques and backstabbing and they think every older person is like them, and they think that only younger persons are fresh and have functioning brains to do the job.

      America is practicing age discrimination OPENLY with the approval of the Federal and State Governments and their so-called “anti-discrimination” agencies. After all the governments in the U.S. are totally enslaved by corporations and their dictat.

      But, if you look at Government employees, starting with the Houses and Senates, you find people in their 80s and even at times 100s still working! Of course, they are genius in politics and bullshit management business, but in IT, at 54 we are “not good”!

      That is my opinion.

      • #3339035

        IT is insecure persons

        by techrepublic ·

        In reply to Age discriminators in IT are insecure persons

        IT should be called “LieT”. After years of trying to make a better telephone/fax/copier/typewriter we having failed miserably have turned on each other. Its about time we admit that most people working in IT suck, and every year it gets worse. And that knowing full well they suck, managers are coming up with ever more and more creative ways to keep smarter people out of the system.

    • #3256993

      Hello Robb@

      by grossergnu ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Sorry to say, but we have the same over here in Sweden. Same situation. People getting trouble getting jobs at over 40-45. One can get sarcastic or whatever over this, but it is actually a knowledge resorce loss.
      In Sweden(I do not know other country regulations), but the soc taxation and other fees, costs to excuse people from their job at higher age, are much, much higher. Therefor companies avoid this, if you are not some well known hell of some guru. Whatever you do turns into solid gold.

      Some people have therefor formed this Association of “elderly” IT people and they now offer their skill to companies in need of expert advice or in trouble of some sort. You will find former company directors among them.
      This is not much, but all I know of. Sorry not to be able to give any other better ideas.

      • #3236647

        Hello To You

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Hello Robb@

        I had a very boring weekend in Skovde a few years ago. The pubs were state owned and everything closed dead on 5pm!! Aargh!

        I am surprised to hear that you have similar problems in Svenska. I though you guys were all hand-wringing pinkos who paid 50% tax on water and drove cars that did 250 miles to every gallon of Elk pee.

        It really is a bleak future for all of us as we drift inevitably toward our Zimmer-frames. Is there any legislation in Sweden against this kind of ageist twaddle?

        Sweden is usually ten years ahead of the UK in social policy. I would be surprised if there isn;t some law on your statute books that outlaws ageism.

        Thanks for your valued contribution. I do appreciate every single response from everyone, even those that abuse me.

        Keep in touch and let us know what trhe situation is in Sweden.

        Loved Upsala cathedral.

        Robb

    • #3237097

      Ageism?

      by privers ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Age is the price of experience. You get what you pay for, and few employers seem to recognise its value. Maybe this is why IT is full of missed deadlines and poor deliverables.

      • #3237092

        You also get what you have coming to you!

        by network_analyst ·

        In reply to Ageism?

        Hi Guys,

        At my old employer, a medium-sized network integrator, I was originally hired because I could bring in new business. I promised $365,000 but actually brought in $1,087,000! As soon as the management had collected the profit, they began a campaign of harassment. I was told that they lacked confidence in my ability to do my job and that I was incompetent. Customer after customer would ask to have me assigned to their account as the analyst by name. But that didn’t stop my management’s consistent harassment. It went on for two years!

        Finally, I became fed up and quit. I was hired on by another company who preferred seasoned IT workers. Within a few weeks, things began to go awry at my old employer. They started wanting to know who my new employer was. They sent out feelers through the professional community to learn of my latest employment. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that no one in the IT community would offer them any information including the clients!

        Then their V.P. of Education quit. He was my age. Later I learned that another older manager was planning to leave as well. It would seem that experienced workers aren’t really popular in that place. But the real kicker came when two of the clients that I had worked for under my old employer, called to have my new employer assign me to their projects.

        I agree with all of you. Some “hot cat” managers have a prejudice against older workers. They also find, later on, that they have a problem with earning money. My former employer’s revenue has dropped over 5 million since they started their campaign. Good for them!

    • #3237094

      Third world Job

      by rapell ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      come to Uganda and lecture students…they need people like you here. Don’t let that wealth of kn owledge and experience go to waste. come!

      • #3237067

        Developing Countries

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Third world Job

        Hell and thank you for your response to my topic.

        Please e-mail me your situation and I will get back to you immediately.

        Robb

      • #3237066

        Developing Countries

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Third world Job

        Hello and thank you for your response to my topic.

        Please e-mail me your situation and I will get back to you immediately.

        Robb

    • #3237089

      Age does count !

      by mahansench ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Unfortunately I’m in the same situation. I will be 50 this year and am currently unemployed. I live in Geneva, Switzerland and the work market has been very tough these past few years. I have more than 18 years experience and have so far only been interviewed for jobs 4 times in the past 6 months. No job offer has come so far although I still feel optimistic. Age does count.

    • #3237083

      sure looks that way

      by cmichael ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb,
      I’m 63 and will be out of a job sometime this summer. I have shot out hundreds of my IT resumes and am getting about a 1% response and no offers for interviews. Although I don’t mention my age, my work record goes back 20 years.

    • #3237082

      I agree.

      by llady2000 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I am 49 and the company I work in CT for recently closed. I applied to many jobs I am 100% qualified for and get no response. When the jobs are through a recruiter and I question them (and I got this response from at least half a dozen recruiters) they tell me that there would be no use for then submitting my resume, the employer won’t talk to anyone over 30. Some only want 30ish males as well.
      I did change my resume and soon got an interview but the young woman who interview me was pretty
      unhappy when she met me and saw I was older than she was.

    • #3237081

      Try taking it one step further

      by wdoliver ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Unfortunately I do not think you will ever get away from Prejudice in one form or another. It appears to be part of our nature.

      In regards to Age prejudice, yes it is still aroung with all of the other types. I did a similar test myself with the exception of providing a photo when I was actually seeking other employment with similar results. I took it one step further I went to interviews for those who responded when I removed my age. I did not take any of the jobs; however, 75% of them made me offers.

      In the US Age discriminations is against the law; however, it is difficult to prove. Even if age was the factor for not making the offer if asked they would say it was something else.

      I make it a point not to provide age information, photos, or references in my resume. I also do not write biographies. I only include the experience that is related to the type of work I am interested and then only just enought to gain their interest for more. I only list my last ten years experience to prevent them from deriving my age. If they ask for age or photo upfront I do not bother with them. I do not want to work for a company that age and looks are the deciding factor for hire. I would not be surprise to find that they are also major factors for advancement in that company.

      Age discrimination is there and is a result of our nature in sterotyping people. I am 55 years old and I am ashame to said that a lot of my peers the same age already had one career and are only interested in a 9-5 job with an establish routine and no interest in participating in company growth. Others are so set in their ways that they refuse to adapt to new technology. Now these individuals are the minority; however, once again it is our nature to remember the one bad trait and forget the 40 good ones.

      In regards to getting the job in this environment I firmly believe you must sell yourself at the interview. Regardless of the impression your resume makes the one received during the first few minutes of an interview is the one rememeber. Of course, to sell yourself you must get the interview which is why I format my resume as previously stated.

      I wish you the best of luck in finding a job that is aligned with your career interest.

    • #3237080

      They literally can’t help it.

      by paron ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      When I was an undergrad, I heard of a famous self-study done by Vassar College (Ivy-league women’s college in the U.S.) They undertook the study to show how non-discriminatory their admissions were.

      What they found? They were 17x more likely to admit an attractive student than an unattractive one with equal qualifications — this from an institution that prided itself on freedom from predjudice.

      They took the high road, BTW — stopped accepting photos on the applications, and published their results as a warning for other institutions that actually cared.

      The upshot for this discussion? They can’t help ageism even if they try, and many of them don’t try. Without some legislated and economically enforced regulation, it will continue to be a fact of (long) life that age is a factor in hiring.

    • #3237077

      call it what it is… age discrimination

      by rosaticrew ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb… I have had age discrimination applied to me in person and face to face by HR people who believe some of the opinions you stated in your first posting. I have also seen some of the results, younger IT folks who believe they know it all because they don’t have to think to get some piece of software or hardware installed. Unless you can tape or get it in writing, proving you are being discriminated against because of age is tough. The upside is that those companies that regularly do it are going to find it hard to get really qualified people and be able to keep the good one they have.

    • #3237076

      Age in IT

      by tsecret ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I agree, some people have the perception that if you are over 50 in our industry you are out of touch.
      I am 54 and I have just finished a state of the art security product for Biometric authentication for any size organizations based on the latest Power 5 server from IBM (the i5). I have been working with the IBM R&D lab’s in Rochester MN and it is my experience with cross platform, enterprise requirements and real applications that allowed me to lead the developement team to such a success. I believe that less experienced IT professionals do not have the scope of knowledge to design applications for large companies. It is all about perception, the i5 platform has the same problem. If anyone would look at the i5(AKA AS/400) they would quickly know why it is the most advanced OS in existance today.

    • #3237063

      Predjudice X 2 for Vets

      by jtmail ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Try being a veteran and 57. Even with a M.S. in management, I ended up working for a high school dropout at H&R Block. Nobody else will have me for anything.

      John
      Lakeland, GA

    • #3237057

      You ARE SO RIGHT

      by davidfacer ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I too am supposedly dead-in-the-head at the grand old age of 44. I too have 15 years experience in the IT industry. I did a VERY similar thing after becoming dispirited when I finished one long-term contract, only to find it hard to gain further employment. I had just turned 40. After six months of fruitless job searching, I also changed those details you did and got the same response – only to get abused by prospective employers when I provided my correct details. I never did find employment in Sydney again, and four years later I am now living on the NSW north coast and running my own business. I must have put my resume (proper one) to at least 150 prospective employers, and the BEST response (out of 15) I got was that I was overqualified! I used up a few shoes going to the employers directly, but all I got was a sore ass sitting in waiting rooms. Employers use EVERY trick in the book to not make it obvious, but they DO make pre-selections based on age – in EVERY part of the world. I don’t know why, as older people have maturity, life experiences and JOB experience going for them. Senility does not usually come into the picture until much after 40, or even 50 ………. we are supposed to retire at 65 (being male) – what am I supposed to do between 40 and 65 for employment? I have some choices, but retraining at 44 is not a great one.

      • #3236667

        NSW – Great Place

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to You ARE SO RIGHT

        Grand old age of 44!!!!! Cripes mate, your only a whipper-snapper, an ankle-biter. Your not even mature! Now, get down on Bondi beach in your best mini strides and watch out for those Funnel-Web spiders sport, they don’t ‘alf give yuh a bite!

        Seriously, your points all make good reading and support my contention that this is a world-wide problem (at least a Western world-wide problem).

        It’s interesting to note just how many people got fed up and started up their own business. It’s easier said than done of course. I know, that’s what I do. But, it is at least a way out.

        I hope that you are doing well and if you do employ another person or two, let’s hope that you can strike a blow for freedom and employ an old duffer like me.

        Robb

    • #3237056

      Cynicism

      by tmcal ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I am not surprised at Robb’s findings, I wonder why people thought that this field would not be affected.
      Unfortunately discrimination, bias, and cynicism are human responses that has existed since the beginning of time and is pervasive in much of life. Learning to manage these responses is the difficult challenge humanity faces.

      • #3243029

        I have to disagree here

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Cynicism

        What you said is perfectly correct only in the Western World. In the Asian Countries this just isn’t a factor as they respect their elders unlike us the only thing that is currently happening in the Asian countries is that IT there is a “New” thing and so far there are not too many Old IT people there but as time goes on I’m sure that we’ll all see them develop much faster than us because they are not willing to forget their elders and they want them working rather than throwing them out upon the scrap heap when they have finished with us or when they think we are no longer of any use to them or are too expensive to employ.

        Col

    • #3237055

      Not surprising…

      by le-roy ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      …I wouldn’t have been interested in your resume, for either age, if it contained as many misspellings/grammatical errors as your explanation above. If you can’t take the time to spell or use a word properly, the quality of any of your efforts would have to be suspect.

      • #3237043

        English??

        by rapell ·

        In reply to Not surprising…

        so? he doesn’t have to spell the way he did above…how dyu know English is not his first language??? might have a better command of his mother tongue than you do of your precious l’angalis!

        • #3237694

          Well Done Old Boy!

          by dotxen ·

          In reply to English??

          Engwish ish mine foist langrige

          Wobb

    • #3237045

      Same here

      by adow ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I also am near your age (50) and applied for positions in IT that I’m qualified for – a Linux admin job. I didn’t get an interview. They hired a 21 year old who had never used Linux, but was willing to learn.

      • #3237041

        not serious

        by rapell ·

        In reply to Same here

        is this a serious organisation or what? they just want to exploit the kid coz he has a weak fighting position, so they’ll pay him whatever they want. Sorry about that, keep searching

      • #3243021

        But who is going to be

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Same here

        Teaching the kid how things work in Linux?

        Like most companies they employ the cheapest labor possible and then think that they are doing well because they saved a few $ at the expense of their productivity. Heaven forbid that the directors have to take a pay cut just to have someone who knows what they are doing and therefore makes the system work better so that they make more money.

        Most of the current crop of companies are run by accountants who seem to think that everything is replaceable and cheap to do as well. They constantly are complaining about the cost of the wages for staff but I’ve yet to hear one complain about being over paid themselves.

        I know my cynicism is showing through again isn’t it?

        Col ]:)

    • #3237029

      should young ones work on Mars?

      by epix ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      As bad your situation is – it’s been like this since 20 years… every year more is automated – and every year more of your kind ‘sob around their job’ -> while you’ve known and seen the trend, working in IT. And your son and daughters better work in a mcdonalds – because this generation has jobs promised for ever??? and never change – never stop?

      Isn’t it rather like -> now that it hits you, it’s suddenly important? And – did you really think this symptom is typical for the IT branch???

      I’m ten years younger than you are and have experienced the same sh.. for long – but:
      what about reaction, maybe in time?
      I didn’t have a choice – I had to make business on my own responsibility – my 3 kids don’t care about ‘economy’…

      and: I’m in europe, where ‘your own biz’ is decently hard to achieve, compared to laws in u.s…

      we cannot change globalism and automatization – but we can change our ways of thinking and ‘what we’re used to’ – can’t we???

    • #3237015

      Contracting may work.

      by dells ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      My dad (now in his 60’s) has gotten around the issue by working as a contractor through several agencies. When he had a heart attack a couple of years ago, there were head-hunter types calling him the next week asking when he would be ready to go back to work. He’s been able to be picky about the types of jobs that he takes and limits contracts to 2 years, if the contract is not already limited to a shorter time.

      Of course, where he lives (Massachusetts) and the type of work he does (boot code, on board diagnostics, and other low-level coding) both contribute to the availability of jobs for him. As he puts it, he feels like he’s already retires because he basically sets his own hours and gets to do something that he loves so it doesn’t really seem like work.

      -Dell

    • #3237009

      It is all about the money I think.

      by tonythetiger ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’ve seen employers let over-50s go, only to ‘contract them’ as consultants, doing the same job, but at less money and no benefits.

      I’m not in too bad of shape. 47 now, but in 4 years will have had 30 years here and be elegible for retirement. I might even try that Walmart Greeter thing… between fishing trips 🙂

    • #3237003

      Age discrimination in tech sector

      by vartkes ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb, it is no comfort to know that there is immense age discrimination in the entire Tech sector in North America. After 25 years of a very progressive career in tech-dom I took a year off to charge my batteries. That was 2 years ago. I am 50 now and trying to start my own gig since no-one wants to hire me. In the few interviews I had age came up subtly and not so subtly.
      So what do we do about it?

      • #3236964

        About that agism . . .

        by gentlerf ·

        In reply to Age discrimination in tech sector

        One way is to make more enforcable the current legislations against it. That along with making easier to prove with incentives for those who turn in those so practicing agism

      • #3236963

        What are subtle signs?

        by texas_gal ·

        In reply to Age discrimination in tech sector

        I try not to mention my grown kids or volunteer anything that would pin me down. As a woman, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked if I can lift 50 pounds. I can. But how many older women can?
        What other subtle ways do they try to find out my age?

        • #3236800

          Not really subtle….

          by paron ·

          In reply to What are subtle signs?

          Anything not directly bearing on your performance of the job requirements is almost certainly an attempt to winnow you out of the field.

          I would include “salary requirements” in this. However, as we all know, in the winnowing process they “own the ball”, so they make the rules.

      • #3236837

        Solution!

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Age discrimination in tech sector

        We release a toxin in the executive washroom.

        This toxin has the affect of bringing normally ignorant and stupid people, with the intellect of a boiled potato, to a new high.

        One whiff and they suddenly realise that they are 40+ and all that goes with that passes through their tiny brains. They know that they can’t live for ever, that they belong to the same race as us and that what they do can hurt.

        The toxin creates a small hollow in their brain and the next time they fire someone for being too old, or not fitting in to thier flat-pack mentality, the chemical in that hollow, in what passes for their brain, gives them a 20,000 volt kick in the arse.

        Get my drift?

        Robb

    • #3236991

      u r right

      by rekaye1005 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      just kidding before.

      age discrimination is most blatant.
      i will dye my hair before my next interview.
      often the young pups are threatened.
      i know exactly what the manager knows and does not know.
      but you have to look for creative solutions.
      never give up

      rk

    • #3236972

      That’s Europe for you!

      by johngaz ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Why are you surprised? Discrimination is an accepted practice in Europe. Not only age but looks etc. There are no protections there. And they call themselves civilized! This does not happen only in IT. It happens in every sector. I know, I was born there and I am glad I had the opportunity to leave. You may want to say anything about the good old USofA, but this is the country of opportunities. I can attest to it.

      • #3237695

        S’right – To Some Extent

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to That’s Europe for you!

        Hi and thanks for your contribution.

        You have a point, of sorts. First let me say that I would NEVER defend the Europeans. I am a Brit and as such want nothing to do with the Euroland twerps.

        The UK has new legislation coming over from Europe next year. It is ant-ageist legislation, but I can’t tell you much as I haven’t seen the text yet.

        The UK is always the very last country to be dragged screaming and kicking into the present day when it comes to any kind of legislation that demands a change in attitude. However, because I do not want to fall into the trap of being a UK depricator, I can report to you that the UK is God’s own country and the greatest country on this planet. We are, of course and without question, excellent at everything. Even our air is better than yours.

        The US legislation on Anti-Ageism, clearly does not have much affect. Given that the majority of responses here, are Americans. I put that down to the jovial and witty banter that takes place on the streets of the US, which is misenterpreted as ageist! How could that be?!

        As for your leaving Europe. Well done. I spend my time telling my kids that when they graduate they should leave our green and pleasant land for the far off shores of the mighty US of A. I worked in NJ for four years and miss it even now. Best pizza on the planet and Baskin Robbins should be part of every breakfast. Spent most of my time in the Paramus Mall.

        Happy Trails

        Robb

    • #3236971

      Apples and Oranges?

      by texas_gal ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I was wondering if you gave both resumes the exact same content, except age. One thought is that you would have a 55 year old with a list of experience, and also a 30 year old with the same list. If you were 30, would you have the same amount of experience as the 55 year old? A 30 year old with that level of experience would be impressive. Also, if you did not put the same amount of experience, how do you know it wasn’t just the contents of the resume that made the difference?

      Maybe a marketing survey would get some intersting feedback on resume differences vs. age.

      That being said, I dropped my non-relevant experience and only listed my college education. That is how I get around the “overqualified” code word for “too old”. Even then, I find being a girl geek makes it harder to get responses to my resume. I was thinking about changing my name to Pat…

    • #3236958

      I have an idea!

      by network_analyst ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Why don’t all of us throw in our lot with one another and start our own company? Even though I am currently employed, I’d like the idea of working in a place where age didn’t make a difference.

      I know, I know…it all sounds so rediculous. But I think it’s one way to fight back. Think of it, all that brain power!

      Oh well,at least I can identify with everyone.

      • #3243012

        It makes a lot more sense that you think

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to I have an idea!

        It’s part of the reason why I walked away from big business. I couldn’t handle all of the rubbish that was being heaped upon me and none of it was derogatory but because of my age I was expected to know what was required to do well this I didn’t mind in my department but when it got to the stage of starting to do all the admin work for other departments I’d had enough and just walked away.

        Pity my original vision didn’t come to pass but now I have 10 guys working for me and we specialize in small business and offer a service that they all are unaccustomed to and even better something that the competition is incapable of coming close to.

        While I’d love to know what a holiday is I’m not about to change things again as I’ll end up even worse off than I am now. 😀

        Col ]:)

        • #3242833

          think about this some more

          by jscarbrough6 ·

          In reply to It makes a lot more sense that you think

          Hi Hal 9000! I just sent the following message to Robb who created this thread:

          Since you have been kind enough to allow private messages I thought I would include you as well. Who knows maybe there is a “global solution”.
          message to rob follows. let me know what you think.
          Hi Robb,

          See the post and threads Titled: I have an Idea, posted 05/16. I think you should start a new topic under this one to generate some interest in this idea. I have been working within the topic of sustainable economic development and have created a model called the franchised venture capital model for some Native american groups here in US. Basically this model points out that: 1.) 80% of franchised businesses suceed and 80% of small business startups fail; 2.) Any newly funded venture spends at least 30% of their funding developing the same infrastructure services such as HR, Accounting, Marketing et al; 3.) focusing on this aspect of a startup takes away valuable attention from “doing the idea” which leads to untimely demise of the good idea; 4.) most venture firms then want to install their own management teams of accountants and lawyers to protect or “secure” their investment, leading to further defocusing on the part of the new entrepreneur; 5.) Most entrepreneurs need “just in Time training and education” to support their new role as managers and to support new employees as they come on board.

          This model shows the possibility today is to package these kinds of infrastructure needs into a web services bundle and deliver to the startup as part of the overall package. In other words, capital in the right amounts at the right times, coupled with a set of business process services that are usually only available to big biz and supported by a virtual business school accessible at any time by the new venture will serve to “secure the capital” and give the business the best chance to succeed.

          Anyway, As the one who jumped out there and started this whole discussion, I’m asking you to think about this and get back to me with your thoughts. I’ll share more about when I hear from you – I would contact others who have added to your excellent discussion if they would allow for replies in their profile (I just set mine that way, too) I’ve basically been oriented to finding global solutions to the problem of education and economic development. I can see potential solutions to poverty through the reapplication of some of these issues. Young people also feel the effects of ageism from the other side of the coin, The old master and apprentice ideas supported by the these newer technologies like grid computing and semantic web, web services kinds of ideas can bring solutions to world-wide work flow and value added types of economic contributions by both young and old. Well a big data dump – I look forward to your reply
          best regards,
          john scarbrough
          cottonwood, arizona
          jscarbrough6@commspeed.net

        • #3242760

          A new business model

          by consultant js ·

          In reply to think about this some more

          The idea about offering shared services including executive and senior manager guns for hire has real possibilities and should be explored further.

          Entrepreneurs and VCs understand the problem. You might even get to the point where a VC would recommend the company, brokering the relationship to those entrepreneurs who might be otherwise reluctant to try the model.

          Think, as we all should, of the buyer’s real issues and address them in his or her language. Likely technology is not a language most entrepeneurs speak despite what they may say.

        • #3236783

          I seriously think this idea has POTENTIAL

          by lpan1 ·

          In reply to think about this some more

          Every problem has a solution. Innovation has its rewards. More to come but I need to think about this deeper.

          One thing is for sure. A good solution would benefit everybody, young and old(er) alike.

      • #3242873

        great idea – geezer tech rules!

        by jscarbrough6 ·

        In reply to I have an idea!

        While reading this discussion, (and having time to read it since I am 60 now and not working)maybe we should explore this idea for real. Having also discovered that within the realm of the venture capital world age discrimination is equally rampant, I suggest that we go all the way and do a complete “John Henry” thing and develop a whole new vertically integrated industry starting with venture funds through the establishing of startups, supporting the startups, etcetera, and be blatently discriminatory by setting the bar for business plan submission at say 47 year olds. Then, soon, we will find that there is a huge resource pool in terms of capital and human resources that can be marketed sucessfully, Old sourcing will beat outsourcing any day-eh?

        • #3237654

          The discussion has to be leveraged by serious intent

          by network_analyst ·

          In reply to great idea – geezer tech rules!

          J.

          In 2002 my friend and I found ourselves out of work and on the street. Our employer, through gross mismanagement, had gone belly-up. We learned that the two of us had been supporting the company for nearly six months. No one told us and no one asked for our help when, obviously, we were the most productive workers and had brought in the bacon (so-to-speak).

          At first we registered for unemployment. This was my first time in over 30 years. I found it a waste of time. I could have made more money working the stock shelves at Home Depot. We then formed an LLC called InfoTECH Consulting Associates. Our old boss gave us a group of his clients and released us from our non-solicitation agreement. He even helped us generate new business for a few months. We seemed to be doing alright.

          Then, the pundits (the other successful business people who play a lot of golf during working hours no less) told us that we couldn’t make it because we (1) couldn’t capitalize effectively and (2) couldn’t attract investment. We noticed that they also made it really tough for us by offering their opinions to our clients as “trusted advisors.” Naturally, their opinions often explained that we were just a couple of startups (really, at my age they were saying such things). We were also reported to several departments in the NYS Labor Department–a corrupt institution that routinely stiffles business in this state. For the next thirteen months they crucified us with hearing after hearing after hearing. Even though we had the law on our side, they over ruled us. We had to pay them thousands of dollars for starting up a business while we were registered for unemployment even though we never drew unemployment insurance while we were engaged. Our lawyer told us that we would win in state court but that it would cost twice as much as we had been assessed.

          We then were invited by these same business people to join another company on the pretext that we would bring in new business. We promised to bring in $365,000; we brought in $1,650,000. Shortly after completing our quota the CEO of our new employer began a campaign to drive me out of the company that lasted for the next two years. I kept winning his “engagements” by doing outstanding work and winning the confidence of the clients, some who were their biggest customers. Nothing I did, including getting a book on Effective Analysis published in 2004, seemed to convince the management that I was worth their meager salary.

          I finally re-activated my LLC and joined another firm on a 1099 contract leaving my old employer in a lurch. As soon as I did that, I began to get the old screwed up communiques from NYS again which I have to pay my accountant to handle. Governor Pataki claims he loves small business. He loves us because he can torment us, rob us of our profit margins, and kick us around in administrative court knowing full well that we don’t have the resources to fight him.

          Now, I work as a 1099 consultant. I’ve begun winning back my old clients again and they are happy to see that I’m available at a competitive rate. But, what I’ve learned is that it’s really tough going solo alone. Everyone around you is so preditory. The only way I can stay active is through my work with clients where I develop a trust that endures the rediculous business cycle that has become the standard in this country.

          So, when I suggested the idea, I was trying to provoke such discussions. The people involved could develop a powerful political and economic force to be reckoned with. But, they won’t be able to do anything unless an open dialogue begins. If you read many of the responses, you’ll see that most of them are reactionary; they need to be radical. What we’re talking about has no current model in an American Business Climate where the scam rules and business “schemes” are encouraged over productive and efficacious business methodology.

          People are going to have to stop having discussions for the sake of discussion. This a real problem for people our age. If we don’t address with courage and foresight we’re all going to have a really lousy retirement.

          Kind regards,
          Marc DiGiuseppe
          1131 Leeds Street
          Utica, NY 13501
          m.digiuseppe@worldnet.att.net

        • #3236905

          Your ideas have merit – Necessity is the mother of invention

          by lpan1 ·

          In reply to The discussion has to be leveraged by serious intent

          Just because it has not been done before does not mean it can’t be done.

          This is what revolutions are all about. The micro-electronics revolution (much bigger than Information Technology) is still in its infancy stages.

          Although I’ve got nothing concrete at the moment to contribute to your idea, I think that with perseverance and luck you will ultimately reach your goals.

          But the seed has been planted… Let it germinate and see what happens.

          “When preparation meets opportunity luck happens”

          People our age (“Geezers” by IT standards), have had much more time to prepare than the fresh, young, innocent Noobs entering this field.

          Thus we should be more apt at catching any potential opportunity passing by.

          I must say that when I started, I lacked the confidence needed to go into business for myself. I presume most Noobs would feel the same way, opting instead for the “safety” of a regular paycheck.

          But one thing I found over the years is no matter what, one does not get “rich” or at least financially independent by working for others, even if you earn six or more figures…

          Those who take risks usually fare much better in life.

    • #3243055

      Why in the world….

      by placidair ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      would anyone attach a photo to their resume? Seriously, if someone sent me a resume with a photo attached, I’d think they were a little loopy, no matter what their age.

      • #3242849

        Just because

        by johngaz ·

        In reply to Why in the world….

        It is a common practice in Europe. Most companies there want to see you before they invite you! Just as they ask for salary history here, there they ask for a photo! Do you think they are doing some profiling? Hmmmmmmm!

      • #3237686

        It was a test

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Why in the world….

        I did it to make sure that there was a problem, a general problem.

        If I had gone about it differently, no photograph, then I would not have got the response that I did get.

        It was about exposure. I didn’t want to give anyone the opportunity to accuse me of being underhand. That part came later.

        As for photographs. You are right of course. But many recruitment companies do ask for your passport information and a photograph. It is to do with proving that you are who you say you are and to enable companies to stay clear of employing ‘illegals’. And we sure do have a lot of ‘illegals’ over here. Our broders are porous and the EU has made things worse by bringing all the Eastern European countries into the EU. Hopefully the UK will leave the EU over the next few years, then we can control our own borders. That will help keep out the streams of young people who work for pennies.

        Robb

    • #3243053

      Age discrimination

      by csettle ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      A couple of years ago, I was in the job market after being laid off. I was astonished to find that, at 43, I was considered to be “too experienced” for many jobs. I went to a networking group, and everyone there was over 40 and unemployed. That experience and the people in the group told me a lot.

      So here I am, the formerly young whippersnapper who thought that I was terribly clever at 20-something – which I was, but I’m much more clever now – offering my speculation on reasons for the problem:

      1. Perception of salary expectation for experienced staff is that they’ll be out of the price range. Of course, to some degree, you get what you pay for. Can you afford to spend the first six to twelve months or more training someone? Or would it be more cost effective to hire someone who can hit the ground running because they have the experience necessary to get the job in hand rapidly?

      2. Concern that an experienced person will get quickly bored with a job. May be true. May be not true. If I would get bored with a job now, I would have gotten bored nearly as quickly at age 20, though I probably would have been offered the job at 20. So if I take the job now, at least I bring my wisdom and experience to it, and the employer gets to benefit for about the same amount of time before I wriggle into something more challenging.

      3. Younger managers can find hiring a person who is more knowledgeable and experienced than they are is a very threatening proposition. I’ve seen it, both from the 20-something perspective and now. It may not even be a conscious thing. Every hiring manager would benefit from examining their thoughts and feelings on this issue. How would you really feel if your subordinate could run rings around you, but you and your whole team could benefit and shine as a result? Doesn’t that make for a wise hiring decision?

      4. Some people think that with age comes inflexibility. Occasionally, that is true. Sometimes, however, perceived inflexibility is merely wisdom from gained experience, and a greater understanding of true ethics. And often the experienced person is more flexible than the less, and can see more and better options.

      4. Lack of energy in older people. You ought to see my co-worker. In her mid 50s, she’s a whirlwind who works an average 60 hour week. There are few that can keep up with her. My other observation is that even those who do have less energy than they might have had 20 or 30 years earlier, their knowledge and experience allows them to perform tasks more rapidly than the less experienced, simply because they have to seek answers less often.

      If I read this 20 years ago, I would have bristled. If you’re bristling now, step back and think through the logic of what I’ve said. You may find that your next hire is the more experienced worker, and you may benefit from it.

    • #3243052

      Methodology

      by jdgeek ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Did you change your experience to reflect your actual job experience at the age of 30.

      Let’s assume a starting working age of 20 to make the math easy. If you were honest about your experience at 30 (or some realistic version with today’s acronyms) this is a valid experiment. If you simply changed the age on the application, you made this fictional 30 year old look like he had achieved 35 years of experience in only 10 years. Who wouldn’t hire that guy. It is not a slight to you or ageism or anything else but common sense if you set yourself up to be compared to a savante you may come up short.

      Sorry if these details or the same type of comments are posted somewhere in the thread. This is just my gut response to the summary.

      • #3236829

        Call me a simple soul.

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Methodology

        I just did what I did.

        There was no real super-planning. I sent a CV out with my truthful age and stuff. I then sent out another CV (appropriately modified) on which I lied blatently and in a criminal fashion.

        That’s it, nothin more to report.

        The response was what all this is about.

        We can play around with words, pedantics, semantics. But the truth is that those over 40 to 45+ are being badly treated by people big and clever enough to know better. That, my friend, is just not cricket!

        Robb

        • #3236748

          Agreed…mostly

          by jdgeek ·

          In reply to Call me a simple soul.

          I tend to want to agree with the point you are making about people who know better behaving badly. In most instances I believe that the big boys got where they are by behaving badly even though they should know better.

          I did not mean to come of as a pedant. To be fair, I think I raised a valid point which deserves to be acknowledged just as the work you’ve done and experience you’ve achieved deserve to be acknowledged.

          Thanks for stirring the pot. You spawned a great discussion.

        • #3236669

          Mon Pleasure

          by dotxen ·

          In reply to Agreed…mostly

          Thanks. And thanks for taking part. It’s only because people made points, got annoyed and irritated with me that this topic has had so much activity and interest.

          I don’t mind the brick-bats and abuse, means absolutely diddly-squat. What does annoy me is inertia and indifference. There is not too much of that on this web site I am pleased to say, thanks to people like you.

          Happy Trails.

          Robb

    • #3243040

      Ageism is a fact

      by katherinebolden ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      You are so right. I have gotten “retooled”, re-engineered”, “retrained” “right-sized” ” only to lose out to less experienced IT’rs

    • #3243022

      you are right!!!

      by sailor_12801 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      you really ticked me off with your first post. You’re on the money about prejudice. I was laid off 18 months ago. I have great references excellent experience multiple certifications (all current) but it took 18 months to get a job!! why?? I’m 57. I was priced competitively (I’m frugal) experienced and knowledgeable…could only be oe thing. The guys that passed me up missed out on a good deal.

      • #3237683

        They sure did

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to you are right!!!

        Well done.

        You sound as though nothing is going to keep you down for long. That’s the spirit.

        When the going gets tough, the tough phone a lawyer.

        In our litigious country (UK), it is surprising that so few cases are ever taken up against some of the blatent ageist attitudes we have to put up with. Having no law against ageism doesn’t help.

        In the USA there is a law against agesim. Judging by the response to my topics, it needs fixing.

        Robb

    • #3243020

      Personal Experience Proves Robb’s Point

      by ahoward ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      The question, “Don’t you think you’ll be bored with this position?” or statement, “I think you’re really over-qualified for this spot” are responses I’ve received way too many times.
      I am 58, soon to be 59, and getting an interview these days is nearly impossible. If I use my full QV, (I still call it a resume) then it is clear how old I am. I mean, job experience going back to 1974 means that either I violated child labor laws, or I’m not so very young any more. So, I?ve taken to giving out a shorter resume.
      I would bet that this is not necessarily an IT problem, too, but I can only say what I?ve experienced in IT hiring practices.
      While I cannot prove it, I also believe I was let go due to both my age and my health (heart condition). But they used the stock phrase, ?No longer a good fit,? after two years and never having been ?written up? or disciplined for anything. Especially since, on a Help Desk, I closed more calls than any two other people on the desk did!
      Even trying to get consulting contracts has been difficult, for the same reasons.
      The fact that I have a good, solid background and wide range of experience seems to mean nothing any more.
      It’s easier to pay someone half what I’d want, and then replace them a few times until they get the right person.
      Makes no sense – it comes under the heading of “do it right the first time” as they’re going to get the wrong people so many times, that they will pay head hunters – over the course of time – way more than if they hired one of us to begin with and went from there.
      So, we’re all in the same boat. Maybe we should join and create a company that helps us all get work, even at our “advanced ages” of over 50!
      -a.

      • #3236845

        I Was Let Go…Really?

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Personal Experience Proves Robb’s Point

        There I was straining to be released from my employement. I hated the large salary, the holidays, the first class flights to exotic destinations. Not for me the mini-bars and late night ruckus with friends I only met in the tropics or wherever my company sent me.

        I couldn’t wait to be free of the company car, the late night trips with my working buddies to the driving range, the endless office parties and those tedious end of year bonuses.

        I wanna be free! I want to be unemployed, please ‘let me go’. Down-size me! Release me from this workaday excitement, this living hell of a regular salary.

        REALLY! Who do they think we are? You wrote that they ‘Let you go’. What on earth does that mean? Were you desperate to do nothing, to live on welfare, to “spend more time with my family”?

        I HATE THE PHRASES THEY USE WHEN THEY SHAFT US!!!!!

        Why can’t we get the simple truth just once?

        You’re too ancient, you stupid old sod, so we’re gonna do the right thing for us and our younger. more wonderful workers and fire you. So git, and don’t come back! Take your spare teeth with you and wash the glass!!

        I could deal with that, at least it’s up front and honest. I hate the phraseology that has developed to kick someone where it hurts.

        Sorry, just a rant. I’ll be okay later.

        Robb

    • #3243009

      Most correct

      by rs1146 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I too am over 55 years. Started when dos was the thing. Now I go send in resumes and get maybe a call back. Probably due to the amount and types of software I list, some predate windows. I believe, I hope incorrectly, that it shows to possible employers an age. I have been in interviews that I have been first choice ,by their comments, only to find that they hired someone that was chosen a week after the close of the job interviews. I end up calling to find out anything and sometime get a staffer that wasn’t suppose to give out that information. Just call me pissed! I believe it to be not more then 80% of the HR out there because I have had a resent job where I met the people before any mention of a job. They where OEM manufactures. Down sized was the reason of loss. They were great to work for and just let me prove myself. Russ

    • #3242962

      Not riding off to the sunset yet

      by sumjay ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb,

      Your topic has certainly generated a tremendous response. You really hit a raw nerve there as the baby boomers continue to expand our universe.

      After being laid off, since 9/11 dried up my company’s contracts, the older folks one were the first to be turfed one by one.

      Could’nt afford the health insurance premiums on unemployment in the good U.S. of A., so boogied back home to Ontario,Canada. Thank God for our Universal Health Care.

      Sent out hundreds of apps but no reply. I kept updating myself in taking company sponsored courses in Project Management till the last minute while working. Thought that it would help to keep current. Obviously that didn’t matter.

      In Canada, took up some volunteering and a consulting job at a deep discount which could use my research (Hey, pays more than a Wal-Mart greeter!) and PC skills in delivering seminars on a brand new subject. – “Investing in Abilities” – The presentation was to bring awareness to employers (Targeted audience) that people with disabilities have proven that with a little accomodation, they are very loyal, hardworking and productive employees. These were verified with case histories. After a while the series of seminars were over,funding dried up.

      So now I am once again pounding the keyboard away looking for an assignment (Maybe I’ll move to Calgary, Alberta – heard there are more opportunities there!).

      Hmmmm, anyone out there willing to fund a Project – “Investing in Experienced Abilities”?

      Cheers guys, maybe we can all put our collective wisdom together and create something new! Ideas anyone!

      • #3242937

        Very Good Point

        by mikefromco ·

        In reply to Not riding off to the sunset yet

        At least in the US, the cost of having older employees can be tremendous when it comes to health insurance. Especially so for a smaller company of less than 25 employees.
        One of the companies I do work for pays about $60K more in health insurance because the average age is in the mid to late 40’s.

    • #3242959

      Some reasons, though no good ones

      by mikefromco ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb,

      One factor may be that your thirty-something boss isn’t comfortable with bossing someone who could be their father. Okay, that makes them a bad boss, but doesn’t help you any.
      Another thing may be that the positions you’re applying for may be more fitting for a younger person, at least in the minds of the employers?
      Were any of them project management or management positions? Even at my age of 50, I might question putting you on a team of ‘kids’, though I would at least want to interview you first.

      Mike

    • #3242946

      Ageism? Nah!

      by donmars ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      (Thoughts of the hiring person)Well at 55 I would think you should be either running your business or managing an IT department. There is also the issue of maybe you would cost too much for all that experience. Take the former. Why is that not so? Is it that you are a failure in your field? Be it technical lack or personality defect. I am scanning dozens of resumes and am forced into assumptions to make fast decisions. All else being equal your age is an indicator of where you should be. either I do not think I can afford you since you may not stay for what I can offer or you are not as good as your age suggest you should be. Next resume. Just playing devils advocate. I am also 55 and have a hard time getting into IT so I am back in my field as a biomedical engineer with, currently, an X-Ray company. I have a total of 8 years IT experience with a few certs.

      • #3242884

        Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

        by damelion19 ·

        In reply to Ageism? Nah!

        Maybe poepole like what they are doing and they do not want to be a manager…..

      • #3242840

        Thinking Thing is Dangerous

        by nottheusual1 ·

        In reply to Ageism? Nah!

        “Thinking” like yours, as a hiring manager, is the poison that makes it so tough for so many. Your version of “thinking” would preclude you from your own position, wouldn’t it?

        I’d have had to asked you why you faired so poorly in IT that you had to fall-back on biomedical engineering. Weren’t you good enough for this field to begin with??

        Age discrimination is elitist – it’s a way for very small-minded people to have/keep power.

        Small minded nudges are the reason I started my own business years ago. Now I get to work with all the “over the hill” small business owners and teach tnem how to kick corporate butt. Nobody sets the world on fire in my small circle, but many a child has been put through college, so we win at some level.

        It’s like everything else corporate – everyone hides behind the lie of “the souless corporation” when in fact it is individuals making these decisions everyday, but they are too spineless to admit it.

        • #3237809

          The bigger they are, the worst they get

          by lpan1 ·

          In reply to Thinking Thing is Dangerous

          I’ve worked both for large (95,000+ headcount) and small organizations. My preference is the smaller upstart, because your personal contribution is much more significant to the well-being and prosperity of the corporation.

          In a large environment, your chance of ?making a difference? gets diluted by the number of people working there. There is so much red-tape, that something that could get accomplished in one hour of intense concentrated efforts, typically requires 30 business days. Meetings, approvals, sign-offs, overhead, politics, turfs…

          And of course, since there are so many to do so few jobs, lines are drawn in the sand; if it is not part of your job description, forget it.

          This is why large organizations cannot move fast.

          What does this translate into the real world? Look at Google for instance. They were not the first to conceive of a search engine. There were many before them. Yet they were new, fresh, and believed they could make a difference. And they did! Big established 100 year old corporations could not even compete. In a mere 5 years or so, they became #1 with their new technology, and upon IPO became also one of the largest (US$ 32Billion if I am not mistaken) corporation regarding search engines.

          Well, it’s obvious, just go on IBM webpage and do a search. For anything IBM. And it takes a while. A long while.

          Whereas, with Google, virtually instantaneously, they come with relevant results!

          Come to think of it, (even though I am an IT Manager), the “overhead” involved in managing a large organization is full of pitfalls, and in-fighting between competing departments.

          Instead, in smaller growing upstarts, there is no such “overhead”. Recently, IBM was laying off 15,000 people, mostly middle management, to “bring the decision power to the front-lines” in an effort to be more responsive to the changing business environments.

          I think there is too much overhead in established businesses. Overhead = Management = HR…

          “Bureaucrats cut through red-tape; Lengthwise…”

          Thank God we are not all bureaucrats.

      • #3338938

        you make unreasonable assumptions

        by rhenrys ·

        In reply to Ageism? Nah!

        I left a good paying job to care for my ill mom. I was out of work for four years. At the ripe old age of 47 I found myself in 2003 looking for a job. Do you have any idea how tough it was to obtain a position after the dot-com bubble?
        How about being over the age of 45 and looking for a job in 2003.
        I was very fortunate to get a job at my age.
        Most have not been so fortunate.
        Don’t assume that at a particular person’s age, that they should be at a certain “place” in their career. There are too many factors involved.
        rhs

    • #3242936

      Same boat, different course

      by jimryan ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’m 60, out of work. I had hoped a voluntary hiatus. After a year off I’m beginning to scout the prospects and suspect my vacation may stretch out there a bit further than anticipated.

      This is what I find. Yes, there definite age discrmination. The real question is why. Sure, employers can get a newbie for less money than they think you will want, but employers also tend to have tunnel vision, thinking “I need a body to to X and X only.” They don’t spend much time looking at what additional value you may bring to the organization based on your experiences.

      I also think most managers are intimidated by employees older than they are. They are uncomfortable trying to boss the older person around, no matter what the actual ages are. A twenty-something trying to manage a forty year old is as awkward as a forty year old trying to manage a sixty year old.

      I can give you an example of what I’m running into. I started working with computers using a Teletype machine as input and paper tape as output. I worked with the very first every electronic messaging system in the whole world while in the military. I have degrees in accounting and finance. I have extensive experience developing systems in accounting, contract management, property management, publishing, and event productions. My position before leaving was a DBA and web app developer. I’m definitely hands on. Have been a manager and don’t really want to do it anymore.

      I see the real problem as not even getting a shot at an interview. I can take being rejected but I would like a chance now and again.

      My sole job offer so far has been a ride operator at a local amusement park. Actually, I might like that if they could kick they pay up another 30-40K!

    • #3242929

      Ageism is a Criminal Act

      by raclapp ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Out of Curiosity… In countries, ageism and the discrimination of it are illegal. Hvae you given the results of your survey to a Prosecutor and the local law enforcement? You may be lucky and find them during a slow period or someone who is on the “make” career wise and would love some good media soundbites.

      Richard

    • #3242908

      It can now be stopped.

      by hometech ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I began my own business away from the corporate mindset mainly because I couldn’t find a job either. At my age (52), no ne would hire me. And all I want is a technician job! I don’t ask for anything special.

      What I did discover, though, is a new law, recently passed by the US Supreme Court, that allows those of use who have been discriminated against or feel we’ve been discriminated against to defend our position. And all we need are statistics! Robb, your little unscientific study, could probably be used as a defense, if necessary to stop age discrimination within these companies.

      I know it’s not much, but at least in the US, we have some way to defend ourselves. And maybe these practices will stop or at least cause companies to rethink their position.

      Regards,
      Dennis

      • #3237924

        perhaps a better course

        by alang11 ·

        In reply to It can now be stopped.

        Perhaps a better course of action would be to have a Political Action Committee (PAC)take up the cause. One possible resource would be one of the most effective and powerful lobbist organizations in the USA – that would be the American Association of Retired Persons (aka, AARP) take the issue to Congress. Anyone over 50 can become a member of AARP and even younger people (45-49) can become “associated members”. Have AARP push Congress to enact the same hiring protections and quotas that were given to minorities during the years of racial discrimination. If the population of the U.S. is 13% African American then your workforce diversity should reflect that percentage. The same can be done for older workers. If the population of the U.S. is 45% over 50 years of age then your workforce should reflect that percentage as well. The real gainers of such a policy would be female minorities over 50, but at least the rest of the aging population would also gain some benefit. And since the Baby Boomers are all facing this situation and are the bulk of the voting public, maybe Congress would listen.

    • #3242907

      Rob– USA–Age Discrimination

      by damelion19 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb:
      I read today?s article and I am glad this was a test to see if any other people were having the same issues. Let me assure you that, I for one have been running into the same issue, just like you. I live in the US and let me tell you everyone knows age discrimination is going on, but no-one wants to take on big business. In my country you are entitled to unemployment when you loss your job. Even the state unempolyment agents know that there is age discrimination going on, but the laws are written in such away they cannot do anything about it. Large corporations have high paying law firms and accounts that help them walk the fine line so they do not get sued. And if you bring litigation against them, you do not have the financial recourse to fight them. In the US there are laws that permit a company to fire you without any reason. It is called ?At well employment?, if a manager just does not like you for what ever reason he just lets you go and if you are not in a union you have no recourse. I have seen companies, which will be unnamed, take over other companies and within a short period of time let most of the older employees go for one reason or another. They request or make policies that make working for them intolerable. Big business in the US has the power and the money to squash anyone or group that apposes them. One last comment, I worked for a company for twenty-seven years who had policies that would give every employee some protection against being fired for no reason. When this company was bought out by another company all those checks and balances went out the window. After 33 years at one company I was but in a position where I had no choice; I could not except there offer of employment because of family issues, so I lost my job, and now because of my age I cannot find a good paying job. I can go and cook hamburgers for minimum wage if I want a job. Oh well, that is life and maybe I need to get a life, and stop feeling sorry for myself. I think it is time to stop, and start smelling the roses, life is to short.

      • #3237693

        Same Here

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Rob– USA–Age Discrimination

        You just described the UK situation perfectly.

        We have all the same problems as you guys do. Only difference is that at this time the UK has no anti-ageist legislation. It’s coming next year. But, I don’t expect much to change. It’s pretty much as you say. business will find a way.

        Wow, it’s lunchtime and I can smell those burgers!

        Robb

    • #3242829

      Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      by fredzepplen ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Thanks for your post Rob. You really had me going and p!ssed me off too. I should have suspected.

      I live in Vancouver and am 46. I lost my tech support job in 2000, not due to the tech bubble bursting, but due to my former employers policy of dumping people over 40 in favor of people in their 20’s. They do it every year, and it doesn’t even seem to raise an eyebrow.

      If I named the company, you would shake your head.

      I have at least 10 years IT support experience and besides private support for small companies, I have never been able to get back to a full time IT support position. I did not get one interview between 2000 and 2003.

      My education in in Electrical/Electronics, I also have some serious experience in that field. In 2003, I abandoned IT in favor of going back to my roots.

      I have found that discrimination here in Vancouver is not limited to age, but also extends to race. If you are not Chinese, Phillipeno, or East Indian, you are not working in any kind of electronics manufacturing in this town.

      I am abandoning technology altogether and going into the electrical trades. My only hope of employment seems to be in an industry that is short handed.

      I resent this decision being made for me by some pimple faced recruiter or HR crone.

      • #3236852

        Electrical Engineers – Spark!

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

        Your experience, attitude and opinions are pretty much exactly as mine.

        I am a little older than you, but the experience is the same. We have a similar situation here with regard to immigrant workers. Don’t misundertake me, I am not suggesting that immigrant workers are bad, nor good, nor anything. I am saying that employers manipulate the market because they can, due to the abundance of imported labour.

        I come from an electrical engineering background. I too have thought seriously about returning to my ‘industrial roots’, as it were. Have’nt done it yet, but it could happen if thing carry on as they have been doing.

        I think it is a crime when good, experienced, motivated people are chased out of their careers simply because of a misguided prejudice about age and image, based on an outdated stereotype. The thing that annoys me the most is that it’s my age group that are the most bigoted (did I spell that correctly?). It’s not the twenty-somethings that hire and fire, well not commonly, it’s our age group. And it’s our age group that make up the majority of politicians who are the apologists for this kind of recidivistic behaviour.

        String ’em up I say. Crucifixions too good for ’em.

        Robb

        • #3238662

          Robb may I make a suggestion?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Electrical Engineers – Spark!

          Many years ago when I was really feed up with working for big business and IT I too attempted to go back to my “Roots” so the speak and I wanted a job where I wouldn’t be constantly the end person who had to know everything so I applied as nothing more than an assembler at a small electronics place. The interview when fairly well until the Head of the assembly department asked for a practical demonstration of my ability so he had a few circuit boards assembled and placed in a soldering rack and told me to have a go. 😀

          My mistake was that I finished them all off in short order and then was waiting around for the guy to return when he did he asked what was wrong and I just replied nothing would you like me to test these? Well he came over to have a look see and his only comment to the Boss of the place was “That’s better that what I can do” after that it was just going through the motions as I knew I’d blown it. I got the usual over qualified bit which I most certainly was and the fact that they wanted someone there long term and that I would get bored with the job and move on to other things.

          It didn’t matter in the slightest that it was exactly what I wanted to do and escape any responsibility and I didn’t even mention my education status as they didn’t ask and I was a bit vague about my past jobs as to the actual position that I held and the type of work that I was doing there I just said Tech at so & so and left it at that.

          As it turned out I got a bright idea of working for myself “BIG MISTAKE” that one was and that was the only job that I’ve ever applied for. I still get a few head hunters calling me to work at some place but they are now getting fewer and fewer as I really am not interested in doing that type of work again and finally I think that the business concerned are waking up to the fact.

          Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea returning to that work as I would at least have the illusion of Holidays and Sick Leave but I really hated having to constantly have a suit case packed and not knowing where I would be at the end of each day or waking up in some strange motel room and taking a few seconds to remember where I actually was.

          Here we get 4 weeks PA holidays and when I left the last place I was owed 6 months in holiday pay which is quite illegal but I really never had the time available to take the holidays as there was always something cropping up. One of the places just paid me for 4 weeks holiday per year on top of my salary while I kept working. It at least saved them the tiresome problems of constantly having me show up on their books as being overdue for holidays and then some one from HR coming down insisting that I take my leave while we had deadlines to meet or more importantly customers who required service/repair work at the drop of a hat.

          The guy that wouldn’t employ me I meet several years latter when I was called in to do their new network and he was shocked to learn that it was me who he had heard so much about and he just told me that I wouldn’t have lasted there as I would have been too bored. 🙁

          If only he knew the truth. 😀

          So if you want to have a go at electronics again don’t appear to be too good as that is even worse then being bad as they can always train you up to their requirements but they’ll never stand a chance of training you down to their level. While I was installing the new network I even suggested some improvements that could be brought into production to improve reliability as well as cutting costs and it was then that the guy learned that I had a PhD in Electronic Engineering. Instead of struggling with their constant problems I just may have been able to help them out and save them quite a lot of both money and wasted time. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3237348

          Don’t get your hopes up

          by l squared ·

          In reply to Electrical Engineers – Spark!

          Robb,

          Maybe things a different over there, and now. My experience was that it was even worse for EE’s over 45.

    • #3242761

      Some advice and a comment or two

      by consultant js ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      For those who are 40 to 45+ and believe you have heard ‘you’re overqualified’ or ‘you might be unhappy here’ or things of that sort, I strongly suggest you check out (free of charge) Nick Corcodilos’ (‘Ask The Headhunter’) website at
      http://www.asktheheadhunter.com

      His unique position may make sense to many of you and might move you forward if you feel stalled. He does not condone standard hiring practices, and gives you a perspective on job searching from the point of view of the headhunter, someone whose daily living is predicated on successfully placing people. His advice is amazing. And it really makes sense. I have no realtionship with him, except to enjoy his unique take on the market.

      It’s funny, I’ve considered starting a business that focused on senior employees for many years. There are businesses where younger employees simply can’t do the job, they are either disinterested or are incompetent.

      Only recently did I discover that a well-known firm in my area actually owned up to hiring older workers at reduced salaries. This is a major U.S. Government contractor, well-known for its quality of deliverables. Other businesses are very likely similarly engaged, but at least in the U.S. will not and cannot own up to it.

      I experienced a whirlwind of a global IT company’s worldwide downsizing a few years ago.
      It was painful, after over 15 years of service, but it actually set me aright and forced me to consider after 32 continual years of working with little vacation and almost no sick leave, what is important in my life. Would that we should all have that opportunity! And guess what, those ‘out of work’ now do, so take advantage of it.

      Best of luck to all!

    • #3237973

      Looking at this wrong?

      by eric.p ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I don’t dispute the data you’ve gathered, and am not at all surprised by it. However, I wonder if there might be another interpretation than what you have offered. I know a lot of people my age (49) and older who are getting jobs (I just got a new one myself), but the more experienced people don’t normally get work by sending out bunches of resumes and hoping something will come of it. Those resume mills are never going to get the best people for the job, or the best job for the people.

      After working for 20 or so years you must have contacts that know your value. They’re who you should be talking to. It’s not that companies don’t want mature, experienced people, it’s just that they’re not looking for them among their piles of resumes.

    • #3237952

      Good Subject, Robb

      by charlie_s ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      You did it right. I was fortunate enough that, after I sold a moderately successful business in 1994 and watched the grass grow for about three months, I developed a management software program for the type of business that I had been in for 20 years and sold it to several of my previous customers. One such customer needed an IT department from the ground up. Not knowing much about what was required, but supremely confident in my ability to learn, I took the job. That was 10 years ago, and I am still not an MCSAnything, but I still have the job at age 71 (not a typo). My son, however, a MCSE with years of experience, was caught up in HP downsize/merger and has been unable to find anything in the IT field. I believe that he has two strikes going in, his previous salary (even though he has stated that he will work for much less – like enough for food and fuel) but, more insiduously, his age (47). Many of the posts to this thread have addressed the fact that corporate America places little value on experience and knowlege. This is so prevalent and so stupid. One last point and I’ll get off my soapbox. The way to solve the Social Security shortfall as well as return our economy to some semblance of normalcy is to get the jobs back within our borders. Yeah-Right!

    • #3237943

      Women in IT

      by spm_in_sv ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Anyone wants to share their opinion how women in IT face the criticism. Even though I am a project manager, I am continuously educated by my colleagues “so called IT guys” about how not to mistakenly shutdown Oracle instance or delete a network user! My managerial job (in small IT dept.) that I have earned through hard work and knowledge mandates me to have IT rights to do such tasks but few of my male co-workers keep treating all three female employee of the dept as second grade staff. In this day and age, I find it so petty that I don’t even argue unnecessarily except letting my boss know of the truth and SHE understands.

      So not to delve in any feminism discussion but purely addressing the gender issues too as part of this thread. Another issue is I am the only one in dept with an IT Masters? degree and others are ?self made? programmers.

      • #3237829

        Discrimination forms in general

        by lpan1 ·

        In reply to Women in IT

        Discrimination, regardless of where it comes from is unethical. The silver lining is organizations that practice it generally end up shooting themselves in the foot. Instead of retaining above-average personnel, they ultimately lose their best assets, namely good dedicated employees. Smart persons of any age will see this insidious trend, and will realize they do not want to be part of such surroundings. This leads to these kinds of organizations to become less productive than their competitors, and they suffer a slow languishing death.

        That said, reverse-discrimination also can occur, under guise of oppression. Typically, “feminism” or “chauvinism” is equally evil.

        Also, I?ve personally known Computer Science PhDs that are completely clueless: For instance, when I was a switching systems engineer working in R&D at a large telecommunication firm, one team-member decided on his own to rewrite his portion of the project we were working on, using macro-assembler, defining his ?own home grown? language. A typical compile that would take 10 minutes or so, would take over 4 hours, just to start spewing out compilation errors? Needless to say, that team member was absolutely useless to the team. Yet he was the most formally educated one.

        I sympathize with your plight of discrimination because of your gender, but my point is credentials alone do not make anybody a better IT person. Intuitive intelligence, resourcefulness, and especially experience account for a lot more. Thus it is unfair to judge a person based on credentials alone. Some of these ?self-made? programmers might be real geniuses, who knows?

        Although far-fetched as a common example, look at Bill Gates, a dropout from Harvard. I suspect he could teach a thing or two to any emeritus computer / electrical science professor at any reputed university.

        As well, look at all those ?geeks? writing hacks. Mostly 15 year old, (mis)driven by passion; and doing things unimaginable to most corporate systems programmers. At their young age, it is definitively not formal education or training that got them their skills.

        ?It’s Attitude, not Aptitude that determines your Altitude.?

        • #3237639

          I agree some boys can’t handle women working with them

          by cberding ·

          In reply to Discrimination forms in general

          Your arguments are certainly valid. I’ve worked in several different industries and I’ve seen some secretaries with more aptitude than the PhDs they were hired to support.

          I’m always reminded of a joke one of my bosses taught me…

          BS
          BSBA
          MBA
          ——-
          0

          What is it? Three degrees above zero. Sometimes they matter as much as the zero.

          The best advice I ever learned is, do better, be better. Some guys have to swagger to make themselves feel better. Usually, it’s just a show for someone who feels insecure about other things.

          I worked with a guy who was very intimidated by my education. He went out of his way to act like I was an idiot if I didn’t know something. He also did this to users. He was so bad that people refused to call him for certain things because they didn’t like his attitude. While I still do not work at that job, I still have more than a few friends because I treated people well.

        • #3239307

          Clarification

          by spm_in_sv ·

          In reply to Discrimination forms in general

          When I said that I am the only one with MS degree, I was actually referring to it as a possible reverse discrimination. Not suggesting that others do not know anything. So not only that I am a woman but also with formal education dealing with ‘self made IT guys’!

          Thanks for all the replies.

        • #3239239

          formal propaganda?

          by techrepublic ·

          In reply to Clarification

          by “formal education” you mean you are well schooled in specific commercial products that are came out several years ago?

      • #3237691

        Fem A La Fem

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Women in IT

        You are absolutely correct. IT has been toys for the boys for years. In my job I try to encourage as many females as I can to get into this industry. Unfortunately, it’s that very TFTBs issue that stops them. That and the stereotyping that goes on in schools and, worse, at home.

        We need a balance, it’s not healthy to have all those smelly guys around.

        Keep up the good work and don’t take any c^%p from anyone. Women are just as bright, just as smart and they smell a whole lot better than many of the pony-tailed, bicycle-rider male (at least I think they are)geeks that I have to put up with. The younger males are the worst. They find it impossible to co-exist with female workers without having the tedious testosterone rush. Making complete twats of themselves in front of their male co-workers and a complete nuisance to any female within a mile and half.

        In the UK it is no different to the USA. We have a lack of females in our IT sector, just like you.

        We can only pray for change.

        Robb

      • #3236946

        Ferris Bueller of it all…

        by mlayton ·

        In reply to Women in IT

        “isms in my opinion are not good”. When I went for my Masters and graduated in 1997, I took to wearing my class ring to meetings – as a female (one of only 6 in my masters program) it seemed to give me more credibility – especially with vendors and others who did not really work alongside me. I can’t say I’ve ever had an issue with people I work directly with…it’s mostly outside people.

      • #3237565

        Well it is just a sad fact of life

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Women in IT

        The males by age 45 + are boring old farts and there are a lot of us but women in this age group are very rare and well almost nonexistent as they generally where encouraged into other areas when they where younger so they are very few and far between.

        While I’ve personally worked with a lot of women in the days when I worked big business I’ve never actually run across one my age they have all been quite a lot younger than me anyway so you would have it even harder.

        On the other side of the coin though I’ve found women to be generally far better at multitasking as their brains work differently to the mens no slur or anything like that just an observation over quite a few years of experience just as I was walking away from punching code the women where making inroads into the field and honestly they seemed capable of doing more {tasks} that is in the same time as the men who generally locked themselves away until they finished what they where doing and you interrupted them on pain of death, the women on the other hand just seemed capable of talking to you while they continued punching code.

        I never did get to understand how they did this but honestly by that time I was so feed-up with that entire side of the business I couldn’t get out fast enough it was only supposed to be a part time job for a few weeks and 4 years latter and department manager I was running away as fast as my little legs could carry me. Give me hardware any day of the week and I’ll be happy but I’ll admit that a lot of the Sys Admins that I see now days are female and they seem to love the work.

        Col ]:)

    • #3237834

      Good Job Robb!!

      by fredkc ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’m 53. I’ve been in computers since 1978.
      My latest schooling is approx. 18 months ago.
      That also marks, the approx time of my last job interview.

      What have I done lately? What are my skills?

      Well, I had my own gig for awhile, and I’m good enough to keep 8 web servers, all feeding at the trough of a SQL server, all humming like a top. I even authored 90% of the software used on all the sites.

      I’ve partnered in setting up a network where 38 windows machines, and two unix accounting servers, all happily co-exist to make a car dealership work.

      Suffice it to sayt, if there is something you want done, involving a SQL database, and a web server, I’m your guy.

      “Ageism”? Such a polite term! I could just puke. The last interview I was on, (I kid you not) the idiot actually had the nerve to ask me, “Are you sure you’re going to live long enough to finish this project?” I stood there like a deer in the headlights! I just didn’t know how to respond.

      I am not employed, I feel, for two reasons:

      1. I am actually insistent on making a living wage from my work.

      2. I am not 18, ignorant, yet over-eager to please for peanuts.

      What does this mean? Basically, it means I am willing to work anywhere in a 75 mile radius from my home, doing just about anything computer related, for any salary above $55K a year.

      What most employers now seem to want, instead, is to hire 2 18 yr olds, for $30K each, and let 18 hour days of hurry and enthusiasm accomplish what I could do in 10 hour days of experience and planning.

      I can and have worked with people of any age. I am not condescending, belligerent, or threatening of position, regardless of the person’s age, yet I find myself increasingly bitter on how I am treated, vs. how I am.

      To that end, ( and to perhaps stir the pot a bit) I would like to respond to the many posts I saw on Robb’s previous thread, re. how us old geezers should just “politely get out of the way”, etc., with a bit of ageism of my own, I have learned in this recent job hunt of mine:

      “Son, the youth, and inexperience in life, which you so eloquently display, belie your ignorance of just how little in life you do not know.”

      Don’t forget, in 15 years, or so, you will face the exact same situation yourselves. May you face better treatment than you have meted out.

      • #3171321

        This works for me…

        by gary.woodman ·

        In reply to Good Job Robb!!

        > “Are you sure you’re going to live long enough to finish this project?”

        “Listen sonny (young man/woman), I’ve been analysing/coding/administering/troubleshooting longer than you’ve been alive, and I’ll still be doing it when you’ve flown off to your next pie-in-the-sky.”

        It worked fine; I *didn’t* get a job at this dreadful place!

        Gary

    • #3237766

      We are some kind of breed!

      by aapjanaya ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I live in Mexico, aging here is a gray drama. Legions of competing youngsters and labor laws which haven’t changed since the 1920’s. Prerequisites on age, marital status and sex, can be set by employers at their please, laws simply allow that. Getting a decent job is a miracle.
      Seniority resembles wine, some aging improves it, but in the long run, it becomes rotten. At 54 I feel like wine at its best, having still some good years to go. We, IT people, do excercise brain far more than ordinary souls, a fine mean to fight senility.
      Do you need a C# guru?, what’s wrong if he was a proficient Fortraner long ago?. Is it dangerous an UML designer who was good on HIPO?. I know many Unix wizards, the best one became 66 of age recently, he deployed his first Unix in 1973, today he is certified in Solaris, HP-UX, Red Hat, and self-employed.
      I didn’t find trouble in moving from structured to OO programming, it was joyfull by all means, so I’m waiting the next wave, since OO won’t be the last one. Amazingly, some young fellows embrace current approaches as if they were going to last forever.
      Are we better than kids?. Certainly I wouldn’t enjoy working three days in a row as I did 30 years ago, I leave that to young IT-superheroes. Life taught me a lot of facts, the valuable ones are not obsolete at all, newbies can’t grab these by magic.
      A real handicap? Managers feel fear for their jobs when senior fellows show up. A guy who has served 25+ years in the IT fields, won’t easily become enthusiastic about clerical duties by leaving the skills of a lifetime to cope with the culture of an ordinary business. Middle aged guys are far more dangerous to ‘rookie’ managers.
      Computer Science, Informatics, Information Technologies, are just names, we witnessed their growth in less than a lifetime, we are some kind of breed!

      • #3237690

        Wow! Amen…

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to We are some kind of breed!

        You are correct about the threat that mature and experienced workers pose to middle/young managers.

        How to deal with that is very difficult. It is an area of science I have yet to master.

        I guess, as with all these issues, only time and persuasion will win through.

        Here in the UK, we have the same problems. Young managers, thrusting young suits with still-warm degrees (abslutely no knowledge or skills about real networks etc) make decisions daily that affect peoples lives. At 30 something it is impossible to empathise with a person of 60.

        We have been where they are – they have not been where we are, and that is the problem.

        It can be solved to some extent by law, but really it’s all about education and change of attitudes.

        Robb

    • #3237756

      Vacancies – Yes

      by geekygirl63 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      If you don’t mind working for Uncle Sam, there are vacancies where i work. I have three. I am a 40something IT manager that is very short handed. I also started my own business and things are looking good there. The thing I have found, and currently I have a specific target market, is that I am trusted by older home computer users because I have experience under my belt. Don’t despair. There’s work out there for you.

    • #3236812

      Robb-Good for you

      by mikebytes ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Your initial “discussion” point did raise my ire. (For you folks under 30 “ire” means it pissed me off) however, I did note in my reply that you should provide the opportunity to work to anyone qualified.

      Robb, when I was 54 and laid off from BofA I was told by headhunters after 2 months that they were not able to find anything for me because of my age. I am glad they were honest with me so I could redirect my efforts. I have had employment on a sporadic basis since then (2 years). Since this is reality we “old” guys need to advise the youngsters out there to be more aware of their future and plan to retire at a younger age when they get the boot and cannot get a job.

      Mike Wierman

      • #3236643

        Mike Is Right

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Robb-Good for you

        We should make sure that we educate the younger folk about what awaits them in their future career.

        No-one want to rain on someone’s parade, but – forewarned is forearmed.

        Thanks Mike.

        Robb

    • #3236799

      Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      by pry1 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’m in the position of being in my late fifties and trying to find a new job, so I’ve been following Robb’s thread with great interest. I attended the Inspired Work Discovery program several months ago and found it very helpfull in redefining my goals and objectives regarding employemnt. I want to add the following newsletter to the thread in the hope that it may help someone.
      ——————
      Dear Reader,

      A few years ago, attorneys sent me to another town on a mission, to save a company. The owners were globally influential and their organization had grown very quickly. Like so many entrepreneurs, they had never learned how to hire the right people nor did they fully understand how to work with each other in an effective and supportive manner. We brought the board back to the table and created a timetable for solutions. In the process, it became apparent that many changes had to occur with the professional staff.

      Now I’m an old recruiter. Before I moved in my life’s work, I hustled workers from one company to another. Organizations were either “clients” or “sources.” At least in my world, the purpose of recruitment wasn’t to better people’s lives, it was to move them from one place to another. Please understand that I’m not trying to take potshots at recruiters, that’s coming. The real intent is to influence an idea that we can take charge of our own lives and in doing so, it may be time to redefine our career standards. Simply letting a salesperson talk us into another job, just like the one we hated, might not lead to happiness.

      On to the point: Employers tend to fall into sludge, drudge and escalating workplace problems by putting up with the old formulas for recruitment. I think of a very well known pet chain that rhymes with the words, “get go.” If you want to evaluate how overlooking talent management strategies can influence the quanity and quality of your customers, go visit this chain. Try to get assistance, try to keep your sanity as it takes fifteen minutes to be checked-out. In my case, I got irritated enough to bring up their name to friends only to be told that In Defense of Animals has been boycotting ‘get go’ because they claim it mistreats the little animals waiting to be sold. They probably just don’t have anyone to feed them.

      Back to the corporate reorganization:

      At the time, I felt that Internet recruitment was a nightmare, getting either 6,000 resumes from unqualified candidates or no resumes at all. On the other hand, if we used traditional recruitment, our client would be dissatisfied with what could easily have been a million dollar staffing process. In the end, we were able to find over thirty qualified professionals plus a CEO for less than fifty thousand dollars. The process happened with a minimum of fuss and our average ?time open? was less than two weeks. I?m finding that most companies still feel it is acceptable to live with ?time open? numbers that impact every single aspect of profit making and high quality morale.

      According to the Saratoga Institute, companies are spending an average of 65 days to fill their job openings. So many organizations are running ?lean? that we live with stress and burn-out as it is. But what are the consequences of living with an open position for a month, two-months, perhaps even six? The greatest damage to an individual or a workplace isn?t from intention. How many of us intend to create damage? The greatest damage comes from hypnosis. It comes from assumptions. For example, Staffing.org publishes a list entitled, ?Established Recruiting Process.? How many steps do you think is being described as ?the norm?? How about 101 steps?

      The technology-driven recruitment firm that transformed my outlook is called Decision ToolBox. Their President, Kim Sheperd states, ?Companies should not accept 65 days as a reasonable amount of time to fill their openings. The majority of positions can be filled within 30 days through a combination of technology, careful application of strategy and schedule management.?

      Let’s decipher this: Kim is talking about is getting more by combining the best of technology with better human thinking. Getting into better solutions often requires that we don’t get caught up in traditional turf war language. We still find traditional recruitment demonizing the Monster.Coms of the world, ?Oh, you simply can?t get the best candidates without that personal selection process.? And, the Internet companies are chortling, ?Why pay these ridiculous fees?? The dynamic continues in most industries. If you are patient, we can find a similar turf war in healthcare between traditional and “alternative” medicine. The most educated consumers of healthcare often blend both worlds and get healthy more quickly. Traditional and alternative medicine impose a disservice to the community by continuing this competition.

      Corporate bureaucrats continue to characterize the costs of an open position as a ?soft? expense. Why are we so soft on providing answers? What are the actual costs to your organization in lost productivity, low morale and diminished corporate intelligence? Are these questions worthy of answers?

      Inspired Work is in a strategic relationship with Decision ToolBox. I?m not here to sell their service. My role is to primarily question ?the norm? and propose that in various ways, the world of work may be ready to move forward. What could happen to your work environment if you started to assume you could find the right person to take that load off your shoulders in a few weeks rather than a few months?

      What would happen to your work environment if you had all of the talent to make the results – extraordinary?
      Be well,

      David Harder

      An Acknowledgement:

      In front of the world, I want to thank my best friend, Debra Johnson, a brilliant and loving attorney, a former hip-hop professional dancer and one of the great hearts in the world. Two weeks ago today, Debra heard that it may be time for me to find my birth mother. Within fourteen hours, she located my mom. We were reunited last week and as an adopted child, fifty-two years later, I can say miracles do happen and they often come through friends and the real Bhuddas of the world could be right next to you.

      With love to Debra – Happy Mother’s Day – David Harder

      ?, Copyright (All Rights Reserved), 2005 – Inspired Work, Inc.

      Please note: If you wish to add a colleague or a friend to our newsletter
      mailings, simply e-mail the address to us at
      info@inspiredworkservices.com.

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      • #3236634

        Interesting Stuff

        by dotxen ·

        In reply to Reply To: Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

        That is a long reply and is inspiring. It is also something that everyone can apply themselves to.

        But, at risk of being an ingrate, it does’nt answer the problem directly. The only way to do that is to stop the rot. What you have offered is excellent and I would not detract one iota from it. But it is a workaround, as all that we do to mitigate the impact on us as individuals, is a workaround.

        by instituting a workaround you, by definition, avoid dealing directly with the cause of the original problem. Although all that you state and display is very very useful, valuable and good, it is a diversion from the issue. I say that with great respect to you.

        Unless and until we deal with the core problem, we will never resolve it. I accept that while we move in that direction, slowly ever so slowly, we have to do something, so a workaround is what we do, and that is fine.

        Robb

        • #3237551

          Robb in 10 -15 years time

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Interesting Stuff

          There will not be a problem as there will just not be enough young kids to fill the holes that business need.

          Lets face facts we have an aging population and because of this in a few years those who are the young ones now will have job security as it will not be possible to just replace them because there is no one around to fill their shoes.

          I suppose this comes from living on the bleeding edge of the IT industry as most of us where their for its birth as it appears today. While I really still love mainframes I do accept that there isn’t the need for them today that there once was. I’m old enough to have worked with the more modern mainframes those being the ones that didn’t rely on punch cards to program them but by todays standards almost any of the high end LT’s could perform as much number crunching as those enormous mainframes did if not more.

          I suppose we got to play with all the new toys and we are paying the price for it now by being replaced by the youngsters although in my case it was a deliberate decision to get the Hell out of the place and do what I wanted to do instead of doing as I was told to do and how to do things that I considered as wrong.

          Col ]:)

    • #3236764

      Young IT workers have no experience!!

      by crc_1 ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I am a professional 60 year old IT consultant and I can tell you from 23 years experience that young IT workers are sometimes gifted but at all times behind the experience curve. That is not to say the longevity makes you a good IT person I have worked with old guys that still lament about the loss of MS Dos and with opinionated putsis that can’t make a decision on their own. I remember a time when the new hotshot right out of tech school worked six hours trying to bring a system on line and when I was able to lend a hand I went over to the panel and plugged in the patch cable and the problem was solved. Just because someone knows a lot of IT facts and processes if they don’t know how to think troubleshooting all the time they will be hopeless and not much troubleshooting methodology is taught these days. An organization needs us old guys to keep the young idialogs in check.

    • #3236737

      Yes, there is ageism as well as the bottom line in the IT sector…

      by ladyjet ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Robb, you knew there was ageism in the IT sector before you put out your CV/resume with your real age on it. However, you never put your age (or dates, until the interview–you can’t hire age and/or experience) on your CV/resume because of the laws in this day and age to reduce ageism.

      However, even if you didn’t use your age/work experience with dates, you still have to figure out how to deal with how you look and how much you want to make. If you want over $50+k/year, it’s obvious iwht your experience that you 1) need to make that much, or 2) have the experience to get that much. Now what?

      Ageism is not just in the IT business of the computer age. Ageism is rampant all over because with businesses now, bottomline is the most important thing. They hire people younger than 30 because they can get away with paying them less money, even if they appear to give them more–it’s not what an experienced worker would want/need for the same job. If they can make mroe money, even if they have to let the younger people go for incompetence, it’s less than they’d pay someone in their late 40’s/early 50’s. Not to mention that if you are really looking for a job, lying on your applicaiton could be cause to get you fired immediately.

      There has to be a way to get around this, but so far, the companies are only looking at the Money and the Bottomline, rather than finding someone who can stablize their IT departments. If they can make more profit by hiring people who are just out of school, they’ll do that… They’re not smart enough to realize that with an experienced person, they could stem the losses much easier and better. Big business? Go figure…

    • #3238968

      Sad but true

      by java_cruise ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I had a similiar experience when I turned 50. My job got outsourced to India. So, I sent out about 300 resumes across the country, targeted to specific technologies I was experienced in. I had great references, performance reviews. Primary skills in Java, C++, DBA (Oracle,Sql Server), etc. Nada, not one reply in 300. A friend got me a short contract job I took for 3 months. I then took the same resumes truncated the experience to 10 years (I have 20 years experience) removed the dates I graduated from college (BSCS/BSEE) degrees and sent them out to the same 300. I got 3 interviews and 2 offers immediately from that bunch. Hmmm, no discrimination! Yah, right!

      Also, in my late thirties I was first programmer hired. I was the lead and given the responsibility to hire the rest of the team. One incredible candidate did better on the interview questions than any one I have ever seen. I would say I’m good programmer and this guy was so sharp I asked a plethora of questions beyond what I normally would. He went to the whiteboard and knocked out code with ease. Oh yeah, he was 60 yrs old!!! The comp. prez found out I had brought him over his ‘nobody over fifty rule’, the candidate got the boot.

      Bottom line, “Do NOT let your kids grow up to be techies” Even if they survive the outsourcing they have no chance for longevity.

    • #3238961

      Send them out again

      by bearyann ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Send to those same companies but this time make yourself a female of any age and see if you get any responses. I think females in IT don’t easily get accepted into the door. I’d be curious if your test would prove that out.

    • #3238768

      Well you will need to look

      by zlitocook ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      At what Bush is doing to the IT field. About 20.000 new H1 new people. Because we here in the US are too stupid to do the job. It jobs are going to places that can even understand what our country thinks. And when you call their help desk, you talk to john or sam but can not understand what they are saying.
      You need a job go to asia or india and ask for a buck a day.
      Sorry I have been reading Money mag. and some others on line.
      We are not looseing to other countrys, we are a great country and can do more then the small countrys can.
      We have and always will be the leader in computers and software.
      I will not be a second in any thing! Email me and we will start a new USA division of IT.

    • #3339043

      The Rise of Stupid IT

      by techrepublic ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I’m working on a paper write now, in the spirit of David Isen’s “Rise of the Stupid Network” ( http://www.isen.com ).

      Basically, IT needs to be split into two separate streams.

      1) Infrustructure
      2) Consulting Services

      Highly technical people, especially ones with experience, would be in high demand in both, but for different reasons.

      Right now, with IT clammering for a voice in the Executive Suite (via CIO / CTO) technical people are getting side-tracked by corporate issues NOT IT centric in nature. And application developers are getting side-tracked into technical Issues, not necessarily Business centric in nature.

      I aim to correct that, which has a big upside for all three parties…

      1) IT Professionals
      2) Younger gung ho Graduates
      3) Business everywhere

      openplanit@datapaper.com to discuss further and/or participate (web site not up yet)

    • #3260301

      Works both ways

      by dr dij ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      what if a place prefers ‘older, more experienced’ workers? I’ve seen alot of this in other posts, ‘
      how do I get experience if I have none, blah, blah, blah’…

      Isn’t this ALSO DISCRIMINATION?
      And isn’t it a companies right to want
      A) a worker who won’t keel over dead soon, & doesn’t smell funny,
      –or–
      B) an experienced person who doesn’t lie on their resume or think they know everything when they don’t even know what they don’t know 🙂 ?

      If it works both ways, maybe we’ll be forced to hire teenagers or out of work hobos to work on our websites (wait, from the quality of many, I think we’ve already done this)

      (I know there are laws in some countries like US about age discrimination)

    • #3180922

      Same here

      by carterdn ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      I dabbled in IT for years as a secondary function then decided to go back to college, earn a degree, and reenter the job market in a new career. Problem was, like you, my resume had too much information that wasn’t related and nobody seemed interested. Lately I’ve just put my educational experience and that I’m a recent graduate and I’m getting about 10 or so responses a day. I used to get that many in a month and I jammed the job boards with resumes and profiles. Sometimes less is more.

    • #3180894

      Hi Robb! You are full-welcome!

      by maeseralf ·

      In reply to Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

      Interesting! Interesting enough!
      I teach to unemployed people, or to improve the skills of those who are employed, and the problem also arises to me.
      Some years ago, thinking about the education degrading in the modern full-tech-developped societies, I realliced that only people older than 40, skilled, trained and experienced, should be abled to teach to younger people.
      Get my answer as supposing it is commited to show how the young should take care about their real capabilities, and not as a deny!
      Thanks, thanks and a lot of thanks for being brave enough to perform this way. The modern global-society should debate seriously about the wrong proud of companies to be young sized. Were have the company’s culture gone? Once, a mid-sized company commited to technology market, here in Spain, stated as a proud that the mean age of their staff was under 30. And the company itself was 60 years old!
      Please, stay on this way. I?m 47 and a half, and I’ve been on the technology field from the first of the eighties, more than 25 years ago. My first contact with IT was the venerable C/PM, and the S-100 bus around the Z-80, and now I’m teaching Windows XP, and Office XP, and Internet, and TCP, and Linus…
      I belive you wander with me: Is there any age limit to Learn?
      Best regards:
      Ralph Mikel’s

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