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  • #2248166

    Programmer, or engineer?

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    by jkameleon ·

    http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2006/10/08/matloff/index.html

    Matloff also has an interesting theory as to the context of the report. The ACM, he says, is dominated by academic computing professionals. Computer science department chairs, he argues, are extremely alarmed at the decline in computer science enrollment. Declining enrollment means declining funding and power in the university rat race. So their motivation is to present the offshoring phenomenon as not destroying American IT jobs, because they don’t want students to be scared away from the discipline. Matloff even quotes an unnamed source who worked on the report as “saying that the atmosphere was such that anyone dissenting from the pro-outsourcing line was gently marginalized.” And finally, Matloff argues that in any case, a significant proportion of the “new” jobs are actually going to foreign workers in the U.S. who have received H1-B or L1 visas.

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    • #3220974

      Boo-Hoo

      by now left tr ·

      In reply to Programmer, or engineer?

      Quite a few of our jobs in the UK go to US workers but I don’t see you highlighting this as a problem.

      Accept it –

      The World is now the workplace and from it are the workers.

      • #3220496

        Global Workforce

        by amar_prus ·

        In reply to Boo-Hoo

        Competency levels among IT Pro’s determine the jobs going to whom.

        In globalised economy difficult to stop that!

        • #3220430

          [b]Wrong! Complete Nonsense![/b]

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Global Workforce

          You are completely wrong! Offshoring of IT jobs from the U.S. to India (and other places) has [b]ABSOLUTELY NOTHING[/b] to do with a competence difference with the U.S. (or other western countries).

          It’s mostly about price. The rest is about global expansion of U.S. corporations. A competent Indian software engineer in India is paid 20% of a comparable one in the U.S. This happens because the cost of living in India is so low compared to the U.S. That difference is completely irresistable to U.S. corporations now that the Internet provides a high-speed global bridge back to the U.S. That is why all of them are closing offices in ALL western countries, laying off thousands and thousands of perfectly fine IT workers, opening up offices in India (and elsewhere), and hiring thousands of Indians (and others).

          I’m very happy for you that globalization is helping your country. Truly.

          But, don’t you ever claim competency as the reason ever again. The U.S. companies that you now work for (directly or indirectly) were BUILT by the Americans whose jobs you now have.

          P.S. See…No bad words or bad names at all. X-(

        • #3220413

          You are absolutely correct.

          by the truth ·

          In reply to [b]Wrong! Complete Nonsense![/b]

          I posted nearly the same factual observations myself before reading your post. The reason for foreign outsourcing is $$$$$, nothing else. If you’re an IT worker at a company who’s management is committed to outsourcing, regardless of how badly it turns out, you’re told “You just don’t get it” and/or “learn to deal with change”

        • #3220396

          Thanks, dude

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to You are absolutely correct.

          Thanks, dude. Gotta call bullsh*t when I see it.

        • #3220427

          [b]How many on TR stand with me on this?[/b]

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Global Workforce

          How many on TR stand with me on this?

          Tell this guy what you think about his claim that [b]competency[/b] is the reason IT jobs are moving from western countries to India.

          In addition to my previous post, I say that his view is [b]self-indulgent[/b] and a [b]rationalization[/b] for taking the livelihood of IT workers in western nations.

          How many of you are with me?

        • #3220402

          well,

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to [b]How many on TR stand with me on this?[/b]

          We don’t often agree completely on a subject, but on this one we do.

          It isn’t about competency of the workforce, it’s about the misguided accountant run management deciding that paying less in wages will improve the bottom line.
          [ the accountants forget that peoplecan’t buy the products or services when their jobs are gone to another country, which actually kills the bottom line in the long run. ]

          Then there is the not well publicised fact that most outsource contracts to places like India, korea, China, etc. are not renewed. The companies do not get the service level they expected and they wind up bringing the work back into the country, and pay even more than they used to. Why are the service levels different than expected? It may have something to do with cultural bias, the CEO wants fluent English when he is talking to tech support personnel, and proper grammer is incredibly important in his/her perception of the speakers language skill. That perception will colour their opinion of the speakers technical skill as well.

          If we look at the original poster’s comment, it is evident that english is not his native language. the syntax and grammar tell us this without looking at his profile location.
          The negativeattitude he expressed for North American workers will colour his interactions with his North American based employers, costing his job in the future.
          There is no way I would renew a contract when the people doing the work show this attitude.
          There is no way I would renew the contract when their written english isn’t following proper english grammar and syntax.

        • #3220394

          Isn’t that funny…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to well,

          I “just” got through defending you over in the “MySQL vs Access” discussion and come back here and find you supporting my view. 🙂

          I’m quite sure there is far more we agree on than disagree on. Even those in the “2%” can disagree on some things.

          Thanks.

        • #3220382

          ~chuckle~

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Isn’t that funny…

          yeah, I just saw that myself.

          I don’t think disagreeing on ny particular issue is grounds for not respecting someone’s opinion, since its through discussing differences that we all learn.

          funny thing about the mysql / access discussion, I was even really nice about access in it, I have no use for Access myself.
          [ it doesn’t run on linux so is useless as far as I’m concerned. ]

        • #3222068

          What Goes Around Comes Around

          by johnnysacks ·

          In reply to well,

          The corporate world will run out of customers eventually but by then, the nests will be adequately feathered so there will be no impact whatsoever on their lives. The offshoring countries will also be paying the price for producing industrial goods for the western world.

          When we offshore our industrial production, they end up getting what we pay for, anyone remember Bhopal? That was a worldwide wake up call for what’s really going on when we ship our industrial production to the lowest bidder. Environmental control and safety in Europe and USA is very expensive because of many lessons learned the hard way. Overseas, just dump it in the nearest river or up the smokestack and let the people downstream drink and breath it in. In China, the government can even censure the press so nobody hears about the scores of children afflicted with heavy metal poisoning, leukemia, and other effects of environmental poisoning.

          Meanwhile, I need a new battery for my car, thank you China.

        • #3222119

          Spoon Fed Lies

          by johnnysacks ·

          In reply to [b]How many on TR stand with me on this?[/b]

          Globalization, what utter crap, last thing I need is some overseas B#TCH platitudes.

          Globalization is the sorry excuse we’re being fed for anything that increases corporate profit by buying from overseas instead of domestically.

          When the tide is turned and corporations are destroyed, it’s a different story completely. If the sorry globalization excuse were true, the US would be buying cane sugar and tobacco from Cuba. The Cuba trade embargo happens to be a convenient lie, we have no problem buying billions of dollars worth of goods and borrowing billions for our children to pay off from the totalitarian communist dictatorship of China and feudal kingdoms like Saudi Arabia. Corporations like Con-Agra and Archer Daniels Midland who reap billions of dollars from producing and feeding us corn syrup sweeteners would be destroyed by the impact of dirt cheap Cuban sugar, same with tobacco. It’s for this same reason methanol from Brazil is taxed at $0.40 per gallon.

        • #3220414

          Bullshit, competency has nothing to do with it.

          by the truth ·

          In reply to Global Workforce

          After trying out the Indian outsourcers, most companies quickly realize that the foreigners, don’t have the knowledge or attitude to take any action or solve any problem that isn’t documented perfectly, character by character, keystroke by keystroke. I’ve worked at a couple of Fortune 50 companies, have friends at more and that is the consensus. The reason foreigners get the jobs is that companies can hire 3-4 of them for one US worker’s pay.

        • #3220363

          What planet are you from ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Global Workforce

          If competency was the criteria, there’d still be a massive skills shortage and those of us who qualify on merit would rolling in cash.

          Cost is where the judgement is made, occasionally value for money, but even there employers weight more towards money than value.

          Half the home grown complement of IT workers in the UK wouldn’t get paid in washers if their skills were judged against the other.

        • #3220360

          That’s easy…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to What planet are you from ?

          That’s easy. He’s obviously from Uranus, a place where the sun barely shines at all!

          :^0

        • #3222312

          No my

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to That’s easy…

          sh1t makes more sense. Al Gore’s anus perhaps

      • #3220411

        regardless of how unqualified they are…

        by the truth ·

        In reply to Boo-Hoo

        and they are unqualified…

      • #3220405

        You are not paying attention

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Boo-Hoo

        [i]”Quite a few of our jobs in the UK go to US workers but I don’t see you highlighting this as a problem.”[/i]

        You are not paying attention.

        Jobs move between the U.S. and the UK in both directions. The cost of living in the U.S. and the UK are comparable. Pay rates are comparable.

        Matloff is talking about the wholesale movement of [b]hundreds of thousands[/b] of IT jobs from the U.S. to places like India where the cost of living is so low that pay rates can be 20% of what they are in the U.S. The only large movement of Indian IT jobs to the U.S. is under the government sponsored H-1B and L-1 visas. And, those [b]hundreds of thousands[/b] of “temporary” work visas REDUCE the prevailing pay rates in the U.S. for the jobs that remain as they [b]further displace[/b] the American IT workers.

        Maybe you would feel differently about this if all of the people in all of the offices around yours were being replaced with inexpensive workers imported from India, with your seat being the next one to go.

        Then who will be going [b]boo hoo[/b]???

        • #3220354

          Not my fault so…

          by now left tr ·

          In reply to You are not paying attention

          don’t get on at me about it. You elected your officials, not me. So now you deal with the consequences.

          So who now was not paying attention?

        • #3220336

          At least you understand…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Not my fault so…

          At least you understand the true nature of the problem now. Globalization is fine. Bad globalization is not.

          I did not elect those people. Some of my fellow citizens did.

          Was only “on you” about the “boo hoo” comment.

          😡

    • #3220419

      Norman Matloff is probably correct

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to Programmer, or engineer?

      Norman Matloff is probably correct. He’s a very smart guy.

      University students are some of the smartest people in our society. University tuition is very expensive. We should EXPECT that they will choose to study things that will pay off for them after they graduate, and AVOID things that will not. The pay rates of American IT workers are under downward pressure from offshoring and onshoring (H-1B and L-1 visas). Corporations want lower pay rates and the U.S. Congress and U.S. “free trade” negotiators accomodate them. If a smart American university student wants to live and work in America, why would s/he sign up for that kind of abuse?

      When offshore job markets and offshore cost of living are such that software engineers earn 20% of what they do in America, it should be EXPECTED that U.S. corporations will move these jobs offshore. It’s completely irresistable.

    • #3222331

      Techie vc Project Mgmt

      by jerome.koch ·

      In reply to Programmer, or engineer?

      As far as large Corp IT shops are concerned, the real “value” workers are those that can deliver and manage projects that increase a corp value. Tech skills are not necessairily going offshore directly, but many corp are outsourcing thier email, data centers, voice, and thier ERP coding. They want shrunk-wrapped apps where no expensive customization occurs.

      This leaves developers, high level admins, as well as IT generalists in a bad spot. Many of these service companies who host corporate IT services outsource thier tech positions offshore. The people who do have careers in IT are those who can manage vendor performance, project delivery, the delivery of new technologies, and cost downs. It is not unusual to see in many Fotrune 500 Corp a high percentage of IT “managers” and project leads.

      The question remains: Why would someone spend a lot of money, not to mention effort and time learning Comp Sci if all he can expect is severe wage compression during his career? Many people are more than happy to remain VB, C, and Linux gurus thier entire life. What will happen when the Indians begin to demand higher salaries and benefits? Outsource to Vietnam or Afghanistan? Will we eventually come full circle and find that the US to be the least expensive place to operate, only to find that no one has the skills anymore?

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