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Programmer, or engineer?

By jkameleon ·
http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2006/10/08/matloff/index.html

Matloff also has an interesting theory as to the context of the report. The ACM, he says, is dominated by academic computing professionals. Computer science department chairs, he argues, are extremely alarmed at the decline in computer science enrollment. Declining enrollment means declining funding and power in the university rat race. So their motivation is to present the offshoring phenomenon as not destroying American IT jobs, because they don't want students to be scared away from the discipline. Matloff even quotes an unnamed source who worked on the report as "saying that the atmosphere was such that anyone dissenting from the pro-outsourcing line was gently marginalized." And finally, Matloff argues that in any case, a significant proportion of the "new" jobs are actually going to foreign workers in the U.S. who have received H1-B or L1 visas.

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Boo-Hoo

by NOW LEFT TR In reply to Programmer, or engineer?

Quite a few of our jobs in the UK go to US workers but I don't see you highlighting this as a problem.

Accept it -

The World is now the workplace and from it are the workers.

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Global Workforce

by amar_prus In reply to Boo-Hoo

Competency levels among IT Pro's determine the jobs going to whom.

In globalised economy difficult to stop that!

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Wrong! Complete Nonsense!

by TechExec2 In reply to Global Workforce

You are completely wrong! Offshoring of IT jobs from the U.S. to India (and other places) has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a competence difference with the U.S. (or other western countries).

It's mostly about price. The rest is about global expansion of U.S. corporations. A competent Indian software engineer in India is paid 20% of a comparable one in the U.S. This happens because the cost of living in India is so low compared to the U.S. That difference is completely irresistable to U.S. corporations now that the Internet provides a high-speed global bridge back to the U.S. That is why all of them are closing offices in ALL western countries, laying off thousands and thousands of perfectly fine IT workers, opening up offices in India (and elsewhere), and hiring thousands of Indians (and others).

I'm very happy for you that globalization is helping your country. Truly.

But, don't you ever claim competency as the reason ever again. The U.S. companies that you now work for (directly or indirectly) were BUILT by the Americans whose jobs you now have.


P.S. See...No bad words or bad names at all. X-(

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You are absolutely correct.

by The Truth In reply to [b]Wrong! Complete Nonsen ...

I posted nearly the same factual observations myself before reading your post. The reason for foreign outsourcing is $$$$$, nothing else. If you're an IT worker at a company who's management is committed to outsourcing, regardless of how badly it turns out, you're told "You just don't get it" and/or "learn to deal with change"

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Thanks, dude

by TechExec2 In reply to You are absolutely correc ...

Thanks, dude. Gotta call bullsh*t when I see it.

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How many on TR stand with me on this?

by TechExec2 In reply to Global Workforce

How many on TR stand with me on this?

Tell this guy what you think about his claim that competency is the reason IT jobs are moving from western countries to India.

In addition to my previous post, I say that his view is self-indulgent and a rationalization for taking the livelihood of IT workers in western nations.

How many of you are with me?

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well,

by Jaqui In reply to [b]How many on TR stand w ...

We don't often agree completely on a subject, but on this one we do.

It isn't about competency of the workforce, it's about the misguided accountant run management deciding that paying less in wages will improve the bottom line.
[ the accountants forget that peoplecan't buy the products or services when their jobs are gone to another country, which actually kills the bottom line in the long run. ]

Then there is the not well publicised fact that most outsource contracts to places like India, korea, China, etc. are not renewed. The companies do not get the service level they expected and they wind up bringing the work back into the country, and pay even more than they used to. Why are the service levels different than expected? It may have something to do with cultural bias, the CEO wants fluent English when he is talking to tech support personnel, and proper grammer is incredibly important in his/her perception of the speakers language skill. That perception will colour their opinion of the speakers technical skill as well.

If we look at the original poster's comment, it is evident that english is not his native language. the syntax and grammar tell us this without looking at his profile location.
The negativeattitude he expressed for North American workers will colour his interactions with his North American based employers, costing his job in the future.
There is no way I would renew a contract when the people doing the work show this attitude.
There is no way I would renew the contract when their written english isn't following proper english grammar and syntax.

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Isn't that funny...

by TechExec2 In reply to well,

I "just" got through defending you over in the "MySQL vs Access" discussion and come back here and find you supporting my view. :-)

I'm quite sure there is far more we agree on than disagree on. Even those in the "2%" can disagree on some things.

Thanks.

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~chuckle~

by Jaqui In reply to Isn't that funny...

yeah, I just saw that myself.

I don't think disagreeing on ny particular issue is grounds for not respecting someone's opinion, since its through discussing differences that we all learn.


funny thing about the mysql / access discussion, I was even really nice about access in it, I have no use for Access myself.
[ it doesn't run on linux so is useless as far as I'm concerned. ]

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What Goes Around Comes Around

by JohnnySacks In reply to well,

The corporate world will run out of customers eventually but by then, the nests will be adequately feathered so there will be no impact whatsoever on their lives. The offshoring countries will also be paying the price for producing industrial goods for the western world.

When we offshore our industrial production, they end up getting what we pay for, anyone remember Bhopal? That was a worldwide wake up call for what's really going on when we ship our industrial production to the lowest bidder. Environmental control and safety in Europe and USA is very expensive because of many lessons learned the hard way. Overseas, just dump it in the nearest river or up the smokestack and let the people downstream drink and breath it in. In China, the government can even censure the press so nobody hears about the scores of children afflicted with heavy metal poisoning, leukemia, and other effects of environmental poisoning.

Meanwhile, I need a new battery for my car, thank you China.

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