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  • #2174456

    Pros and Cons of Windows


    by rthompson ·

    I am doing a report on the Pros and Cons of all Windows Operating Systems(95/98/ME/00/NT/XP).
    I would like to hear from different users and people about their preferences.

    I appreciate your response and replys.

All Comments

  • Author
    • #3173356

      well now this is an extremely

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      good opportunity…

      top 5 reasons to avoid windows:
      ( in no particular order )

      1) cost, m$ wants to go distributed computing, making you pay monthly to use any m$ $oftware.

      2) not secure, viruses, firewall breaches, adware, spyware all prove this one

      3) not stable, a history of crashing.

      4) proprietary, m$ o$ for m$ $oftware is a continuing expenditure of good money that could go into other areas without a m$ solution on your systems

      5) not compatable, no 2 versions of any application from m$ have been compatable, m$word is prime example.

      top reason to use it:

      any moron can find a power button.
      ( even those that should not be allowed to touch a computer )

      • #3173298

        I always love

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to well now this is an extremely

        the unbiased true, no matter how harsh some people will say it is! :^O

        And one of the BEST examples of MS compatablity, ask any ACCESS programmer how they love upgrades…..

        Or how it is the “other persons problem” if they can’t open your file because they have the Corel Suite or the SmartSuite instead of MS Office.
        (staying in a windows world for the sake of this, as Linux users KNOW HOW to use that obscure and often unknown “save as” option to change file formats)

        • #3173278


          by jaqui ·

          In reply to I always love

          microsucks orifice?

          actually, best compatability I’ve found so far for office suites is open office.
          ( being an xml based file type it’s far easier to keep compatability )

          but, and I do have to point this one out for fairness,
          compile newest kernel on a system running the 2.0 kernel.

          “wrong bash version”

          ( 2.4 to 2.6 saw that even )

          so kernel upgrades can often mean rebuilding the entire os. this isn’t a compatability issue?
          generally open source maintains compatability in data files, even if application itself needs to be rebuilt.

        • #3175899

          Pretty extreme

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to ~chuckle~

          You are going down the road of “dependancy hell.” While I agree with you to a point. Upgrading the 2.0 kernel to the 2.6 kernel is like upgrading Win 3.1 to Win XP.

          There is a world of difference…

          However the major difference is that you CAN rebuild that system with newer version of apps and libs so that you can compile and run the 2.6 kernel.

        • #3175627

          But when to you make the decision

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Pretty extreme

          to just start from scratch with the new version?

          Not everything that “can” be done, “should” be done. (unless we are talking about playing around with home systems, and then all bets are off)

        • #3175419

          No argument here

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to But when to you make the decision

          I’m not saying it is the smartest move, but it could keep your server alive while you update to a newer kernel.

          Plus with nifty tools, like yum, apt-get, and up2date, on modern distros it makes it easy to update your server to a newer kernel with 0 downtime (ok…the reboot time, but really…how long does that take 😉 )

        • #3175274

          well, if you follow

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to But when to you make the decision

          the recommended life span for a filesystem,
          you completely rebuild your partitions at the 2 year mark at the latest. ( 6 months is the recommendation )

        • #3189199

          Unix Bigots

          by ·

          In reply to well, if you follow

          Where irritating in the 70s, persisted into the 80s, became desperate and owned by IBM in the 90s, and now just seem pathetic in the face of Windows superiority and dominance.

        • #3189072

          Speaking of bigots . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to well, if you follow

          Who pulled your string, G BIG?

        • #3185995

          Re: Unix Bigots

          by tomsal ·

          In reply to well, if you follow

          Yeah its a shame that all the *VERY* important stuff of our modern technology driven society is handled by Unix (or Unix variant) machines though huh?


          Guess those “irritating” Unix guys were on to something…

        • #3182330

          yup Tom,

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to well, if you follow

          we are on to something. 😉

          stable, fairly secure operatring system. 😀

        • #3182290
          Avatar photo

          Well Jacqui things are on the improve

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to well, if you follow

          In just one thread I’ve been called a MS Zombie and a Linux Bigot. 😀

          I really think that this thread is going to take some beating for all the opinionated people who have posted. 😉

          Col ]:)

        • #3172608

          windows is an OS

          by helpdesk ·

          In reply to I always love

          Windows is an OS , all your referals to other MS products like Access or Word is kind of off-topic seems to me.
          If you have the knowledge , you can create a very stable, fail-safe environment with windows 2000 or NT & XP . the cath is that the easy interface makes it appear that enyone who can click a mouse is en expert.

        • #3172568

          We are knowledgable, and yet…

          by ke_xtian ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          …we have Windows 2003 boxes just go dead for no apparent reason. We open tickets with MS and spend hours on the phone with them trying different things, to no avail. The end result is almost always the same: the old Microsoft 3-finger salute…CTL-ALT-DEL. Reboot fixes everything until it wants to break again.

        • #3180119

          The easy fix . . .

          by taliesinn17 ·

          In reply to We are knowledgable, and yet…

          the tr=hree finger salute is the easy fix, what your supervisor shold be doing is taking all the info you are doing on the front lines — and trend whether your problem is software, hardware or basic user training to the corporate environment . . you can’t just blame any operating system — this coming from a mainframe guy making things work between that and ALL sorts of operating systems and networks — Cheers and best thoughts!

        • #3184412

          I agree but…

          by seau4prez17074 ·

          In reply to The easy fix . . .

          Taliesinn17, I agree that most IT staffs don’t have nearly enough training, you can argue the fact that MS products are inferior. I am a Novell Guru and I can tell you that I have seen Netware boxes stay up for months only to be taken down for upgrades. Windows servers never do that. I have spoken to plenty of IT department heads that say they have a Netware box in a closet somewhere that performs a specific function that no one messes with, it just does it’s job.

        • #3183419


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          The same is true of pretty much every server OS other than Windows. Windows servers are the only servers that don’t end up sitting in a closet performing a specific function without getting messed with, ever, because Windows boxes freeze, or have memory leaks, or require restarts for upgrades, or some combination thereof. Usually a combination.

        • #3194594

          ahhh – netware

          by jclambert ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          I remember the days of Netware quite fondly. It just worked. I don’t remember any server problems aside from hardware issues with Netware servers. Too bad programmers found it much easier to write for Windows.
          Then again being able to write for it more easily makes it easier for more people to write software – and many of those should almost NEVER write any (myself included).

        • #3185953

          Never say never

          by sgilman ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          I have Windows servers that stay up and only go down when we do regular maintenance on them, which is our decision to have the servers go down.

          I’m not a Windows fan at all, but it bugs me when people say “Windows servers suck, they always break” when it’s not true, they don’t ALWAYS break.

        • #3182367
          Avatar photo

          Well how long would you expect a

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          Windows Server to run unattended connected directly to the Internet?

          No disregarding power outages and things like that which are beyond our control mostly I’m betting that you couldn’t expect one to run more that somewhere approaching 1 month the time between MS Patches being released.

          Of course if you don’t patch them they will run longer but then they are more likely to break. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3051231

          Netware vs. MS

          by alacrity ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          I too have had Netware boxes run forever, but I have NT4 server and SBS 2003 that never go down either. I firmly believe that the security and stability are “all in the wrist” There is still some art to computer configuration. Some have it, and some don’t. I support more than 250 computers and ALL are stable (except when the inevitable PEBCaK error shows up) All run Windows OS’s and MS applications. Most workstations are re-booted monthly for patch installs, older win98 systems run for several months without re-boots. My “best” server was only rebooted after continous “up time” of 2 years 11 months and 14 days. That reboot was for adding RAM. MS bashers are (usually) just not good enough techs OR (get this) so DAMN good they tweek where they should not.
          Just my $.02

        • #3050723


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          . . . or they realize that Windows that is coddled and maintained religiously and nannied and watched over like a hawk can run stably under middling loads for a month or two, if nothing goes wrong, but one can essentially beat the living tar out of a Linux system’s configuration, installing, uninstalling, experimenting, playing, tweaking, and generally doing their damnedest to hose things up, and uptime will still overrun the Linux uptime counter at 497 days and still not need a reboot.

        • #3186791


          by jaqui ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          since when has a virus been an os?
          ( since widers 95 it has been a virus, and all good virus scanning toold will say so, after all the bios based virus on the 486 were smart enough to lock the computer against windoze )

        • #3186775

          You are tiring us

          by shorne ·

          In reply to os???

          If you can’t make anything past Win2K run in a stable manner you don’t belong in the biz.
          By the way anyone who is still referring to Microsoft as M$ and Windows as windoze is immediately assumed to be a 15 year old running Linux in his bedroom.

        • #3186722

          funny . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You are tiring us

          I’d place more faith in a 15 year old running Linux in his bedroom than in an “IT professional” using Windows in the workplace that thinks Linux is “too hard”.

        • #3186706

          What’s your point

          by shorne ·

          In reply to funny . . .

          Who said anything about Linux being too hard. Many shops are running both Windows and Linux and find it to be a great mix. The point is that if you can’t configure a modern Windows box to run without crashing all the time, your in the wrong biz (or you’re just buying bargain basement hardware).
          Hey I’ve got an idea, why don’t you post something calling me asinine and pointless to display you’re maturity.

        • #3186687

          the point

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to funny . . .

          My point is that your comment about fifteen year olds is asinine and, well, pointless.

        • #3186681

          Windows isn’t stable

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to You are tiring us

          I don’t care WHAT type of hardware you are using, Windows servers aren’t stable. The workstations aren’t much better. The problem is that Windows doesn’t play well with others AND it has internal issues that have yet to be resolved.

          You comment about the 15 year old is not only pedantic, but a pointless tangent that has nothing interesting to add to the conversation.

        • #3186673


          by shorne ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          I’ll give you that the 15 year old comment didn’t come across right and I’ll withdraw it. What I don’t buy is that Windows isn’t stable. We manage to run lots of Windows servers and desktops without any great anquish and I know we aren’t alone. But don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing AGAINST Linux. We have Linux too. I’m just saying that I have found most Windows versions past the 9x’s to be very useable. I have found that many stability problems in the past have traced back to either troubled hardware or misbehaving third party software. That’s all I’m sayin’

        • #3180142
          Avatar photo

          Now you do have to be fair to those who grew up on Windows

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          They just honestly know no better and if they have a Nix box as a server they are most likely rebooting it on a weekly/monthly basis just because they believe that the Windows Boxes need it so the Nix boxes must too.

          Most of these places don’t even have their units running 24/7 so they are reliable for them after all how many problems can you experience on a Windows Box that is constantly being turned off? You’ll never have problems with memory being tied up and not released when an application is finished or any of the other problems that are associated with Windows as the things are just not running long enough to actually run into problems.

          These people believe that things should work this way so they act accordingly not because they think that things are just this way but because they where taught to do things like this and just do not know any better.

          The number of times that I’ve received looks of disbelief when I say my Nix box has been running for X number of days is just funny now I’ve long since given up on attempting to try to explain why it is so and just leave them to their own devices. At one small business I snuck in a Linux Gateway and they don’t even know that it isn’t a Windows Box it just runs in an out of the way spot and chugs away unattended and I’m constantly told by this company what a brilliant box it is and just how Good that the Version of Windows on it is. The rest of the machines are turned off on a daily basis so really unless they do something way out of line they just do not run into problems that are rampant in Windows.

          Col ]:)

        • #3179996

          Can’t entirely agree

          by kevaburg ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          Nice one about the 15 year old comment! Why do some of these people bothering speaking if they have nothing to say?

          I have found that Windows servers from W2k up have been remarkly stable. Maybe its just me but the one thing that I have found helps more than anything is keeping the patches up to date. I know its simple and boring but it really is the truth. Blowing out the servers once in a while with air help prevent the “hotspots” that can can servers to crash.

          But apart from that I have some personal ideas that mean I prefer the “hybrid” type of network.

          I think the one big thing that has help in my design of networks is the fact I don’t use Microsoft products for everything. Cisco routers, Sonicwall firewalls and VPN solutions and other products mean that if you want to hack into the network the first thing you have to do is find out what equipment is stopping you. If everything is Microsoft then the solution isn’t too far away.

          The second reason a predominantly Microsoft environment is inherently insecure is because an unpatched flaw in the operating system becomes apparent everywhere that the operating system is in use. And that happens without it being propagated throughout a network: It just happens.
          If you are slack in updating the patches and anti-virus solutions then you are asking for trouble.

          I think alot of the trouble and negative feedback comes from people that rely on one technology too much and (please don’t take offence those that this applies to!) MCSE’s are among the majority of those responsible. I know because I was like that once!!!

          What needs to happen is for admins to take the blinkers off and realise that multiple (sensible) technologies in a single environment are a better option than relying on as few as possible.

        • #3188425

          Needed – defn. of stable

          by justanotherguy ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          Is there some definition of stable that all can agree upon, or is it as elusive as which is the ‘best’ operating system?
          Here’s my shot: stable means that the system doesn’t blue-screen, shutdown or reboot without user intervention (pull the plug, press the reset the button). Unstable means that an operation causes a blue-screen, shutdown or reboot (open program, print) and is reproducible on two or more ‘identical’ systems (same chipset, same driver versions, same patch version).

        • #3188383

          stability defined

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          stable (adj.): 1a. Resistant to change of position or condition; not easily moved or disturbed: a house built on stable ground; a stable platform. b. Not subject to sudden or extreme change or fluctuation: a stable economy; a stable currency. c. Maintaining equilibrium; self-restoring: a stable aircraft.

          (from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

          [b]stable (adj.): resistant to changes in operating state that are not triggered intentionally[/b]

          I tailored that [b]bolded[/b] definition specifically to relate to use of the term in describing operating systems. Basically, an unstable system changes system state in unintended manners, and at unintended times. For instance, gradual loss of RAM because of memory leaks, tendency of a GUI subsystem to wedge or crash, and unexpected process termination are all examples of instability.

        • #3195497

          Hang on sec…

          by travisfx ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          I’m just catching up on the thread.. a good one though.
          I’d say Shorne’s comment about the 15 year old is very relavent. I’m so sick and tired of people putting in these stupid MS jabs, trying to be clever… Its old, people, cliche.. Stop it.
          Secondly, you can’t make blanket statements about, well almost anything. So saying MS is unstable, period etc is wrong. 2k, xp etc on good hardware is very stable. I hope these threads get better and get beyond this kind of nonsense. Maybe that’s why I almost quit reading them..

        • #3190796

          Saddam = Pancakes

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          “I’d say Shorne’s comment about the 15 year old is very relavent. I’m so sick and tired of people putting in these stupid MS jabs, trying to be clever… Its old, people, cliche.. Stop it.”

          The “jabs” at MS are mission critical flaws that MS still hasn’t addressed. How is talking about them a bad thing?

          It is kind of like Cisco pulling the Cisco IOS vulnerability presentation from Black Hat…It just looks bad when you don’t own up to your vulnerabilities.

          “Secondly, you can’t make blanket statements about, well almost anything. So saying MS is unstable, period etc is wrong.”

          First you say making blanket statements is wrong, but then you run off and do so.

          “2k, xp etc on good hardware is very stable. I hope these threads get better and get beyond this kind of nonsense. Maybe that’s why I almost quit reading them..”

          So this is metric by which we guage our OS…that it runs only on “good” hardware. ‘Tis a sad day indeed.

        • #3195385

          Stable what does that mean ?

          by johns_revelation ·

          In reply to Windows isn’t stable

          Let’s see the hardware compatability list of most Linux OS’s or Unix for that matter is about 2 inches long. Of course they don’t tell you about that they just keep piping their evangelistic refrain “stable, stable, stable”.

          What about RAID 1 cards or SATA RAID cards ?

          Do you consider the support for these devices stable ?

          I’m interested to know what you mean by stable. How would you measure it ? How would you verify it ? It’s just another meaningless word that the pundits use as they are FUDDIN along trying to influence the influensable. Both sides do it.

          Linux has some use but please stop piping about stability it really is meaningless.

          The hardware support for Linux is and always has been pitiful and well behind windows.

        • #3180144
          Avatar photo

          Or the other way of looking at it is

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You are tiring us

          That people who refer to MS as M$ and Windows as Windose or Windblows or whatever else is used just might have been around before Windows and know what was available then.

          I’m constantly being told by MS Representatives that because I was working Mainframes before the DOS days I’m expecting far too much from Windows as their product is not capable of doing what is required on a High End Server you can read that as a Mainframe or Blade Array.

          The M$ came about because of the amount of money that Microsoft was raking in per second and when Windows was originally released it was considered by every IT professional as “Valium for your computer” and while fine for Home Use had no place in the business environment. When MS stopped supporting DOS the market had to move to Windows even though it may not have been the best option for the job but it did save training costs for the staff who used it at home on their low budget/performance computers so it saved companies heaps in training but even with Windows 95 there was still the Novel Networking suite underlying most business installations to actually allow Windows to work part way properly.

          What you also have to remember that way back when Bill Gates was one of those 15 year old Nerds/Geeks who was using DOS in their bedroom and look where he is today. With a bit of Ruthless Business practices the next big OS development will probably come from someone like that and not the Big Guys who have far too much time and money tied up in their current products. Since NT Windows hasn’t really changed that much the basic Kernel is still the same WINFS still doesn’t work and other than Eye Candy Windows has not developed very much either all that has been done is to add more layers of code onto the base code in an attempt to secure it and make it more user friendly even ES 2003 isn’t all that great in the way new code that was supposedly built from the ground up as there is a lot of the older code still residing in it.

          Col ]:)

        • #3180136

          Sigh..didn’t we have this argument 4 years ago

          by shorne ·

          In reply to Or the other way of looking at it is

          Ya I know all that (except remember that Bill predates DOS). I came up in the industry on the Novell side as a happy CNE and remain sad that they blew their franchise (they went side ways with 4.x then blew up with version 5). And like you say in your other post, I agree our linux boxes are up way longer than any of the Windows boxes. Look, I’m not an apologist for MS or Windows. All I’m saying is it doesn’t crash every day, and anyone who tells you it does has a problem that they aren’t addressing properly. I have several Windows servers that have been chugging aways for months now and another that would have except its UPS stopped giving it power. And yes I have a couple of linux boxes that have been running for more than a year. Hope that clarifies what I’m saying.

        • #3180130
          Avatar photo

          Windows Box’s running for a few months

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Or the other way of looking at it is

          Aren’t you applying the monthly MS Patches?

          I know that MS doesn’t expect business to before they have tested these patches but I also know that most of the infections are now occurring from the time that MS releases a patch and before it is deployed by someone. MS told me so at the last Partners Meeting and went to great lengths to try to get people to deploy patches as soon as they become available. At lest now they don’t break as much as they used to which is a great improvement and when MS has WUS working it will be even better but even Office Patches require rebooting to actually work most of the time.

          Don’t get me wrong MS has its place but I just get worked up when I’m told they are the answer to everything which even MS doesn’t claim.

          Col ]:)

        • #3195453


          by pmdoyle65 ·

          In reply to You are tiring us

          I would agree to the comment here. Win200 is pretty stable program and if you are saying windoze and M$, then it is time to grow up and speak the language properly. My only issue with Linux is that is it not very intuative and has take me awhile to get to know the ins and outs to it. I am more comfortable with Windows but I have used it far longer than I have Linux. From what I see that is a plus on the Linux side is cost, upgradability and stability is far better than Windows.

        • #3186720

          “fail-safe” Windows

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          I’ll just unplug that network cable, now. . . .

          There. Secure Windows.

        • #3180143
          Avatar photo

          You forgot the

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to “fail-safe” Windows

          Phone line for the dial up modem connection and the power lead to make the Windows Box totally secure. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3180132


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You forgot the

          People still use modems?

          I was talking about network security, y’know, not stability or physical security. It’s all good.

          Of course, there should probably be a sneeze guard over it so it doesn’t catch a cold. You know how susceptible Windows is to virus infections.

        • #3189171

          take off the blinkers

          by swilk67 ·

          In reply to “fail-safe” Windows

          Having read thru some of these threads and replies, I’m amazed that we STILL have the nix/open source v MS argument! I?m very tired of the intellectual snobbery and one-upmanship that passes between IT pros, gifted geeks and diehards of one platform over another. Let’s face it, this industry is still VERY young and is STILL finding its feet. Make it (IT/using a comp)easy as poss. and more people will ultimately help it develop, unix/linux is not easy to master for a newbie. I’ve found that there is a huge amount of unconstructive dialogue against a smaller amount of constructive dialogue on this site. The situ is that windows is here to stay 4 the foreseeable, and has provided standardisation the world over, albeit a bit(sometimes very) rough and unstable pre nt/xp. xnix is making inroads into industry and the home but requires computing/OS knowledge and has so many variations on package installs it’s no good for the average Joe to use. At least average Joe can go to the shop, pickup a MS box and within a few months can utilise it almost to it’s fullest. That is a good thing. If Joe went and bought a xNix box from the same shop, he/she would be tearing their hair out when they come to install their 1st package (once they’d deciphered which package to use)!! That’s a bad thing. Ok, apologies for the rant, but say something that is of use please. My take on it all?, Like MS for its
          logical, steady approach, love nix for it’s drive for perfection (& stability of course) at the expence of new distro’s every 5 minutes. 🙂

        • #3189071

          okay . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to take off the blinkers

          Have you ever spent more than half an hour with a running Linux system? Really?

          This is asinine. It gets really, really old spending so much time disabusing people of their blatant misunderstandings based on ignorance.

          I have a very difficult time taking any comparisons between Windows and Linux seriously when they come from people that have significant experience on one platform and roughly zero on the other.

        • #3194657

          I wasn’t going to post but…

          by parsnipfingers ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          Asinine, blatant, ignorance? You are supercilious apotheon and there seems to be little more point to your posts at this stage in the thread than gratifying your own evident ego, perhaps to make the ‘kiddies’ believe in you.
          The point of the post was intuitively given away in the title. If you have such a very difficult time taking any comparisons between Windows and Linux seriously then refrain from posting your inane, offtopic, irrelevant and ‘asinine’ comments. Save them for a relevant thread or even better start your own thread where you can be at the top. Arrogant tosspot (that’s English mate, not sure how it translates into american).

        • #3194639
          Avatar photo

          Well Parsnipfingers what do you have to offer to this thread?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          I don’t remember seeing a single post about the topic by you here.

          Was that just an oversight on my part?

          Col ]:)

        • #3194496


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          I couldn’t have said it better myself, Col.

        • #3195627


          by parsnipfingers ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          Which bit, you coming across as an arrogant tosspot or your girlfriend jumping to your defence?
          If the former is aff. then good for you. If the latter is the case then QED.

        • #3195549

          Thank you, Parsnipfingers.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          I really appreciate the fact that you were willing to demonstrate your maturity and professionalism so we don’t have to.

        • #3195533

          most welcome

          by parsnipfingers ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          I’m pleased I’ve saved you the effort. In hindsight perhaps tosspot was a bit strong. If you’ll grant me your blessing then I’ll take that back.

        • #3195470

          Frankly . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          Almost everything you’ve said was “a bit strong”, Parsnipfingers. Whether or not you want to take any of it back is on you. I’m quite comfortable where I am in this discussion.

        • #3191002


          by parsnipfingers ·

          In reply to okay . . .

          I wouldn’t necessarily agree.
          However I would omit if I were reading through for the first time again. Afterall it isn’t against the law to change ones mind.
          I’m comfortable and I’m happy that you are too.

        • #3190741

          Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          by jan.witschge ·

          In reply to take off the blinkers

          Microsoft has acted as the ‘de facto standardisation’ institute for desktop ICT and desktop productivity tools. It will probably do the same for data centre ICT.
          It has succeeded to be the ‘democratic ICT platform’ because:
          1) they combined all good ideas in the 80-ies and 90-ies into their products, without being held back by the legal systems on monopoly issues.
          2) they were very visible to the end user
          3)They also won from other proprietary and ‘open’ product philosophies of other companies or communities, because of better marketing (and portfolio mgt), better lawyers, and not neccessarily better but certainly more accessible technology.

          I have been am ICT- techie, using and building all types of systems from the mid 70-ies onward and know what’s in there.

        • #3048724

          Reserved reply

          by swilk67 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          Gentlemen please, my title point has been illustrated on this thread alone, I don’t usually partake in IT banter, but the wanton – pseudo- professional backlash, (I feel confident enough in my chosen profession to NOT to list my accreditations or experience) and you know who you are! – The ?I?ve more credits to my name than you and my parents have too? argument is, frankly utterly juvenile.
          Please stop arguing the pro and cons, but work towards harmonisation, standardisation, and utilisation of hardware regardless of x platform ? Do not use your time on this site, deriding each other about ms vs. nix, or some petty argument, but talk constructively on how to bring it together. Don’t forget, if the IT industry were the car industry, we’d still be producing Ford model ‘T’s at this stage. My apologies to you Sirs, but please do not denounce anybodies knowledge of x platform over y platform ? this illuminates perfectly what I meant about intellectual snobbery found on this site and within the industry itself.
          Thanks to parsnipfingers and jwitschge for the understanding.

        • #3048646

          That’s rich, coming from you.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          swilk67: It’s kinda funny to see you trying to play the “mature” card, lamenting the flame wars et cetera, considering your every post here has been a defense of Windows, an indictment of unix/Linux, and generally derisive toward anyone that doesn’t favor Windows. Even when you try to appear somewhat balanced in opinions, your remarks about the various unices are punctuated by “but it still sucks” addenda. Now you’re continuing the trend by calling everyone that doesn’t agree with you some kind of immature brats.

          Meanwhile, you single out a couple of fellow Microsoft-philes as your paragons of maturity and professionalism, people who have if anything been even more anti-anything-not-MS than you have. Parsnipfingers in particular has shown anything [b]but[/b] maturity and professionalism in most of his/her posts here.

          What the hell are you smoking, that you think nobody’s going to call you on that BS post of yours?

          I’ve been supporting both MS and Linux, alone and in hybrid networks, for years. I’m moving to another state to become the netadmin for a company that runs a hybrid network with both platforms running both as servers and as desktops. I don’t have a vested interest in either platform, financial or in any other manner professional, for the sake of its branding. When you can truthfully say the same, maybe your dismissive attitude toward unix/Linux and the people who like it will improve.

        • #3048621
          Avatar photo

          Apotheon while you and I don’t have vested interests

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          Some people do particularly those with a MS only background.

          It is these people who are scared of the developments in the IT industry and the quick movement away from MS Windows on the server side at the very least as if MS ever had a proper Server platform anyway. :^O

          MS make some very nice useful products that keep me busy and the money rolling in so I’m not complaining too much but honestly I would much rather prefer to be doing routine maintenance rather than constantly running around on mercy missions to my customers to fix something that has broken in Windows. At least then I wouldn’t be feeling that I’m getting money under false pretenses.

          Like one customer that I have which I sort of inherited one day when I was very drunk he is driving me nuts with his constant complaints about an old backup machine with 98SE on it. Currently it will not run Defrag or Norton’s Speed Disk so he has spoken to a few people that he works with and come up with the solution the CPU must be replaced an old AMD 450 mind you then when he decided a day latter that it didn’t have enough RAM installed he wanted it changed.

          Of course I’ve left it running doing diagnostics and found not a single hardware problem but a whole bunch of errors in the Windows Registry which is causing the problem. Of course having the date set to 2008 didn’t help either. 😀

          So he is now on my back to reload the thing but only after I save his data and he wants it done now but at the same time the only USB 3.5 inch caddy I have around here has another one of his HDD’s in it formatting up so I can recover some data off it and it has only been at 75% complete since Friday it’s now Monday morning so I think that his chances of getting his data recovered are slim to say the least. But he doesn’t want me to stop the try until the Format option spits the dummy and fails. 😉

          Of course that drive came out of his main unit and he didn’t follow my advice and BACK IT UP! He only backed up his company Data and none of his other files which now seem so important. At least some people are good for a laugh. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3048605

          De facto Standard ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          True Yes
          Right No
          Was the word democratic chosen to distance yourself from the oppressive communist oppostition ?

          W3C Standard

          MSIE de Facto Standard

          Need I say more ?

        • #3190995

          Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          by mrivera ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          You are kidding, right?!?!?!
          WIN and OPERATING SYSTEM??!?!? Pleeeeaassseeee…..
          Windows, regardeless of how you dress it is an A P P L I C A T I O N…. It is not an operating system. Please! Start reading on DOS, OS/2 and WIN3.x and then you tell me if you still think win crap is an Oper Sys…

        • #3190994

          windows is an OS

          by mrivera ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          Window an Operating System!?!?!? Pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaasssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • #3195403

          You can not evaluate the OS without looking at the implications for apps

          by techrepublic ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          I would imagine the users will not just want to boot up an operating system and play Minesweeper. The stability, compatibility, and cost of the required applications should be considered.

          Anyway, Microsoft apps make use of undocumented hooks in Windows to improve applicatons performance, so they are very closely linked and should be considered together.

        • #3051207

          Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          by alacrity ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          In a post further down this branch (where it can’t be replied to) I read :

          So this is metric by which we guage our OS…that it runs only on “good” hardware. ‘Tis a sad day indeed

          I firmly disagree with this. Look at cars. The Yugo and the Benz are both cars. Both have 4 wheels and a seat. but $4000 for one and $40,000 for the other? Why? “It shouild run on whatever hardware we put it on!”
          But we all know that the only reason the Yugo had a rear window de-froster was to keep your hands warm while you pushed it back to the dealer!

          Buy cheep crap and you have an unstable system. A GREAT chipset, CPU, VIDEO, etc, etc placed into bottom-of-the-barrel mobo and you STILL have crap. the motherboard designer has to worry about signal propagation, delay, cross-talk, Time-domain reflectometry, etc, etc. Many good companies have boards that just don’t work well, and most people can blame it on Windows, but the problem is really a design flaw. I once traced a battery drain problem to a mis-labled board that had the onboard battery hard wired in reverse. (anyone remember NexGen??) A Simple +/- reversal and the CMOS battery died within 3 weeks. Now imagine a CPU vector spitting out complex results to the RAM and the chipset opens the gate but the motherboard messed up the trace lines and the data gets one bit wrong in RAM. System says “Hey. can’t have this. I quit for now” and Windows gets another smudge on its record.

          Hardware matters.

        • #3050732
          Avatar photo

          Yes Hardware does matter

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          But then we all see the junk that is sold by so many companies to cut corners and keep the price down.

          I’ve even seen Dual & Quad Processor Boards that I wouldn’t wast the time of throwing them into the sea being sold by a major maker as a server system. While the insides where junk the sale price didn’t reflect the cost of the internals it was all to make as much money as possible and don’t worry about support.

          Even one particular model of IBM PC had a 100% M’Board failure rate a couple of years ago. This unit came preloaded with the basic software & OS and sold for just over the 1K AU mark. Really at the time I couldn’t have bought the hardware to do a decent job for that amount and then I would have had to add on the MS Software and even though it would have been OEM it would have been the proper Application for the job with XP Pro and Office not Works. But most people just buy the cheapest that they can get and think that they have got a Great Deal and all the other builders are thieves who are out to Rip Them Off at every opportunity.

          Sadly that is how many used to be, in same cases still are and something that we have yet to get past.

          But that Designed for XP sticker that MS allows to be placed upon the boxes should be better policed as MS is way too easy in handing them out and for that MS can be held responsible.

          Col ]:)

        • #3099370

          re windows is an OS

          by paul ·

          In reply to windows is an OS

          Agree here. And one more thing, how many of you would have a job if we running UNNIX on all systems? Very few in deed. So be thankful we have it. Besides on workstations all other OS are simply not yet ready for the end user. Never forget the end user please. They are the people we all work for. Without them we can all go home.

      • #3178633

        Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to well now this is an extremely

        “top 5 reasons to avoid”

        Unless, of course, you own MS stock 🙂

        • #3178502
          Avatar photo

          Actually I would have thought

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          That was more of a reason to avoid M$ products you can work away quite nicely thank you very much while at the same time knowing just what problems the competition is having on their M$ Boxes that you are deriving a dividend from. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3178424

          And how many “bugs”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Actually I would have thought

          are programmed in on purpose to MAKE you have to call the support line? How would you ever know?
          Oh yeah, I forgot that we trust MS to only behave in an ethical manner and have OUR(the end user) best interests in mind first and formost!

        • #3178373
          Avatar photo

          Now you are beginning to understand

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And how many “bugs”

          But the main purpose of M$ continued existence is the belief that what is great for M$ is good to some extent to the end users.

          How do I know that this is right M$ told me so themselves. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3186836


          by ·

          In reply to And how many “bugs”

          Microsoft is powerful, and successful…This makes those with small penises, or inferiority feel threatened. The Open Source community, conspiracy types like jdclyde, wannabeez like hackers, and naysayers like Mac lovers. Those who want something for nothing, like the European Union, and the worst of all, those who compete with Microsoft using the courts and lawsuits, like Sun and IBM all share one thing – they blame their lot on the rise and presence of Microsoft.

          They are all wrong.

        • #3186817
          Avatar photo

          Please correct me if I’m wrong here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to paranoia

          But didn’t IBM make Microsoft?

          I was working for IBM when they released PC’s and granted I was working mainframes so I didn’t really see too much of the Play Toys that where being sold to the general public but I believe that they all where loaded with MS stuff.

          If it had not been for IBM MS would never have the current Market Penetration that it has today which God Gates was quite happy to go along with while it suited him and then he wet his pants when he saw Xerox’s Prototype and had to start to develop Windblows which has been a massive backward step as it as yet has still to reach the same levels of security that Unix had all those years ago.

          Col ]:)

        • #3186812

          Not Wrong, Just Partially Informed…

          by ·

          In reply to Please correct me if I’m wrong here

          The brief history is this: IBM was an oppressive monopoly during the 60s and 70s. THe government broke them up (long story here). Gates and others were writing software for the PC long before IBM got into it. Gates wrote software originally for the Altair and later even for Apple. Gates put out the FIRST commercial version of Unix, called XENIX back in the 70s. When IBM came out with their PC (apple owned the market at the time), they had two OSes. One was theirs, PCDOS, the other was Gates, MSDOS. Gates was brilliant charging less for his product and thus took the market early.

          Today, we see IBM, bitter and beaten, trying to knowk MS out by taking over the Open Source community. IBM did not procude the best PC, they did not p roduce the best OS for it, and today, they really can claim little in regard to real progress in the software industry, other than the 360 project many years ago.

        • #3180157
          Avatar photo

          Yes I do know that but I also know that

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Please correct me if I’m wrong here

          Until IBM entered the PC market Apple was still only a very small company and it was IBM with their idea of Open Architecture which made PC’s accessible to the masses and it was IBM who got Billy Boy to buy Sun Micro systems Dirty Operating System and re badge it as MS DOS as Garry Killian’s wife threw the IBM reps out of the office when they insisted that she sign a waive insisting that she would not discuss their approach outside of DR DOS before they would even tell her where they where from.

          Prior to that MS only wrote applications and not an OS. I looked it up in the company Brainwashing material that they provided to all the staff at the time last night. I knew it would eventually come in handy at some time and the bit about the SUN DOS is from a Goggle Search that was done last night as well.

          As for IBM being bitter and beaten they never actually expected the PC market to take off the way that it did and I was eventually pulled out of the mainframe side to the PC side when sales exploded and had to learn MS DOS which I immediately dumped from my company supplied system and replaced it with DR DOS and then with the then industry standard Lotus 123 and Word Perfect 3 I think but I eventually ended up with WP 5 and all the training material for that as I still have it here. Word never made any sort of impact on the PC Market until they bundled it with all their other second rate Office Applications into Office and made it possible to share data between different applications which was not all that easy previously.

          Back in those days I had several PC’s all with different OS’s on them I even had one running the company Unix just to keep my hand in and when I was transfered to the PC side of things it was only for a 6 month period to teach the techs there and then I went back to the real business of IBM and that was the mainframes.

          Today I still know a few people at IBM and they are anything but bitter at MS as they see it for what MS is and do not consider it as competition but a complementary thing to their current products which it really is. Even then MS doesn’t offer a product for the big Blades and the like ES 2003 just is not scalable enough to run on the 1K + CPU Blades that are currently available the same applies to the current crop of mainframes as well.

          Sure IBM stuffed up with OS Warp but again that was all IBM and their way of doing business like Corel today they seem to think that they have a better product so they do not need to promote it they have done exactly the same thing since they acquired Lotus as well which now days is non existent in the industry but in its day was a lot better and was being promoted was a far better suite than Office ever could hope to be.

          Today IBM is getting on with their CORE BUSINESS which are large Blades and Mainframes and they still offer a very good Note Book which if anything is way ahead of the others on the market as far as the M’Board goes. Some of the specialist products that they have designed for places like the DOD are brilliant as well.

          But from being on the inside at the beginning of the PC I can tell you that it was never expected to take off the way that it did and in all honesty if IBM had not gone with the Open Architecture idea in all likely hood we would have two distinct camps Apple and IBM with all propriety hardware and none of what where once known as IBM clones which are the common PC today. But I still think that Xerox made the biggest blunder possible when they dropped their prototype Lidia and returned to their Photocopying business that was the biggest mistake that I’ve ever seen and it was what spurred both Apple and MS to develop a GUI. Currently Apple has sort of got it right with OSX but Windows is still so far behind the leading edge that it isn’t funny. But even today both companies have yet to reach the net workability that Xerox had all those years ago.

          Col ]:)

        • #3186716

          from the unix crowd

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to paranoia

          Here’s a nickel, kid. Buy yourself a real computer.

      • #3172540

        Bread and Butter

        by glenvdb ·

        In reply to well now this is an extremely

        Microsoft is my bread and butter, If it worked 100% then I would be out of a job, but that being said, I actually like the ease of use, the fact that “everybody” has the same OS, makes my job a heck of a lot easier to troubleshoot and fix. Remember 90% of the time, the problem is with crappy software, not with Windows itself. Poorly written DLL’s and just plain Borgware, that wants to change Windows (AOL and Norton are prime examples).
        Linux on the other hand, has gotten so much bad press lately for the badly written code, I am glad I have NOTHING to do with it. Windows (and Mirosoft)will always create employment, and give people the chance to feed their families. Linux will take a while, but it WILL die, and be replaced by another form of Unix.

        • #3186713


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Bread and Butter

          Bad press for badly written code . . . ?

          What the heck are you talking about?

          If you really think Linux is going to die any time soon to be replaced by “another form of Unix”, you probably don’t know much about A) economic forces, B) open source licensing, or C) both. I mean, sure, all things come to an end, but the same could be said of the planet.

        • #3180115

          Face it!

          by tsantanamm ·

          In reply to What?

          I’m a Novell Admin. But I must say, some of your claims are way out of target in regards to Windows. I have been running windows side-by-side with Novell 6 and I haven’t had a single major problem with it. Most of the viruses ad/spyware that affect windows, are made by conspirators against the MS Empire.

          There’s no other platform out there with such a huge library of software that run on windows. You’re all just a whole bunch of cheap, pissed off open source admins that are scavenging for a nickle mad at the fact that you cannot find descent software to run on your systems without actually having to pay for it.

          Windows ROCKS. Case Closed damn it!

        • #3180109
          Avatar photo

          God I feel sorry for you

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Face it!

          There are many systems that MS just doesn’t address out in the real world. Even MS admit this so I find it laughable that you are going way beyond what even MS is willing to claim that they have a product for everything computer related or even an OS that will work on every configuration.

          I’ll give you a challenge Use a 1000 CPU Blade and you try to get any commercially available form of Windows to work on it using every one of the CPU’s.

          Col ]:)

        • #3180107


          by jaqui ·

          In reply to God I feel sorry for you

          you’ll wake the sleeping monkey up.
          after all it’s well known that no ms virus will work on major hardware, only real os will. 😉

        • #3186678

          Badly written code?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Bread and Butter

          Huh? What is this bad press and badly written code that you speak of?

        • #3186660


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Badly written code?

          Yeah, you’d think all this bad press would be noticed by those of us who actually follow Linux news pretty closely. Why haven’t I seen a glut of press coverage of badly written code issues pertaining to Linux? I don’t even follow Windows news as much any longer, and I’m still seeing more Windows issues than Linux issues.

        • #3180116

          well, lets be honest

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to hah

          requireing the gcc “extentions” for the kernel is badly written code.
          those extentions are the bugs in gcc.

          the press, I’ve never heard any bad press about linux, unless it’s in microsoft advertising, which is all fud anyways, as they never really look at linux.

        • #3183115

          oh, yeah, advertising

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to well, lets be honest

          It didn’t occur to me that by “bad press” this person might be referring to Microsoft advertising. Silly me, I should have thought of that. Sure, there’s lots of bad statements about competitors in MS ad copy.

        • #3182918
          Avatar photo


          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to oh, yeah, advertising

          I already knew that there where a lot of MS Zombie computers out there broadcasting Spam and other junk but to actually realize that MS has succeeded in doing the same thing to the people who work with their product. I hadn’t realized that things had got so bad, but then I remembered the last MS Partners Meeting that I attended and overheard a couple of people talk about just how great it was to produce something in Front Page and then edit it with VB. The penny should have dropped then but I just put it down to inexperience.

          Silly me. 🙁

          Col ]:)

        • #3182838

          Col, but

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to oh, yeah, advertising

          this is exactly the mindset that I was lambasting in the programming discussion a couple of weeks back.

          where I pounded people’s concept that scripting a macro in excel is application development to crap.
          same mindset thinks it’s great to use flatpage to create garbage code then edit it in vb.

        • #3184212
          Avatar photo

          Now be nice Jaqui

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to oh, yeah, advertising

          I’ll have to have a look at Flatpage it’s loaded on this box along with all the MS stuff but I never actually use it I only opened word the other day to save something because WP locked up on me.

          Funny really as I’ve paid for that MS stuff sort of anyway as it comes yearly with the kit and they want it on every machine here for demo purposes but then again no one is brave enough to actually touch this machine after the last guy that did accidentally wiped my Windows boot drive when he was formatting up a new HDD he was told to use the one in my office which was supposed to be the old Quad 200 MMX that didn’t have any covers on it so he pulled my box apart plugged in an IDE drive and thought that because the Board would Auto Detect the Drive he was safe, unfortunately I’ve switched off the IDE controller on this unit and just use the SCSI’s he pushed in a floppy typed FDISK and then proceeded to FDISK disk 0 pity he didn’t look at the partition or anything else. Then he tried restarting this machine and promptly went out for the rest of the week to avoid me and allow me to cool off {It didn’t work! :D}

          But then again I didn’t realize what he had done until I tried rebooting it to run Windows and wondered where the Dual Boot option had gone it just loaded up Debian. There is something to be said for having a bulk number of SCSI drives in a machine but it doesn’t help when others who are not supposed to use my machine and don’t know how I have it setup mess with it. Well it was only a Windows Boot Drive and I still had all of my data on it so no biggie other than when he got called back in I told him to reload the Bloody thing and had a pile of CD’s 2 foot high ready and waiting for him. :^O

          Actually this poor thing doesn’t know what’s going on as I’ve had XP running for a while now mainly because I started forgetting just how it works as I’ve been using Debian far too much lately so I’m doing a refresher course in Windows. Now I wounder if this unit will run the production version of Longhorn it only has 2 Xeon’s 16 GIG of RAM It just might be powerful enough to run the next generation of Windows when it eventually comes out but I’ll probably have to fit an IDE drive to it so it will work. 🙂 But you should hear the MS techs when I give them a description of this workstation firstly they do not believe me and then insist that it’s a server not a workstation. But it’s my workstation and doesn’t have anyone else able to connect to it. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3186589

          I think you have to understand the Linux Mentality

          by gphoto45 ·

          In reply to Bread and Butter

          XP boots faster, and is far more compatible that Linux copies of it. If Linux was so great, why do they just copy Windows apps. As for compatiblity, try running Mepis, or Knoppix with Debian machines. I just replaces 11 Linux machines with WIndowns XP and the company productivity shot thru the roof. As for security holes, check on the linux security leaks before you start making statement. Linux is not much more secure. A simple Fork attack will drop almost all versions of linux to its knees. (Expection if Debian!) Like the Mac users, it is a Elitist attitude that is hurting Linux. On the subject of viruses, Linux does have viruses. But you don’t make a tire that is 29″ tall, when only one car uses it. Linux is just too obscure yet to be a target.
          I use Linux and Windows, but since the cost of using Linux is far higher than Windows, Companies are not impressed. In reference to one of the earlire comments, Windows is offering Distrubited Software, not going to it.

        • #3180140
          Avatar photo

          Come on now!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I think you have to understand the Linux Mentality

          I saw and I’ve read the material where the Product Development Manager of MS has stated the need to go to dumb terminals all with an Internet connection and you then lease the software and OS from that company which just happens to be MS.

          No it hasn’t happened yet and it will not happen in the short term either just because Windows is still incapable of running on Server Farms and the like do you remember the fiasco when MS acquired Hot Mail? But that is what they are working cowards.

          It is MS way of staying the market leader as even today they have to take into account Linux when reporting their expected earnings for the coming year so at least the person in charge of Product Development can see the writing on the wall so in an attempt to keep their place they are attempting to make PC even cheaper to acquire and then worry about running costs latter. Currently unless you are buying a high end business machine the cost of the software just about always exceeds the cost of the hardware involved and I don’t ever consider using Celeron CPU’s or all in 1 M’Boards to keep costs down like the big boys do.

          Incidentally do you know who is in charge of Product Development at MS?

          Col ]:)

        • #3189162

          Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          by jd_russell2003 ·

          In reply to Come on now!

          Now I know why all of you are Techs. Obviously not a single one of you have bothered to look at the number one thing.

          Why do businesses exist? To make money! That’s it. Plain and simple. To make money. There is no point in a business providing a service for another individual if they aren’t going to line their pockets with money. (if you disagree take intro to business and economics) Everyone needs to get back to the focus of the discussion. That is which OS do you prefer.

          Aside from a few statments about stability and alot of crap about paranoia and conspiracy, no one has provided any insight as to which of the two is better.

          Just a bunch of himming and hawwing about one or the other. Based on everything I’ve read I’d pick the MS operating system over the LINUX because of the same reasons why it is the leading OS in market today.

          These reasons are:

          1. A “paid” certified professional developing/repairing the code from the company that created and designed the software. If everything was open source you would have to train every new network administrator that is hired to the changes you’ve made in your source code. This takes away any kind of working ‘baseline’ for an administrator and increases the amount of burden the company has to bare in finding an adequate new hire.

          2. MS dominates more than 90% of the PC market. If their product was that inferior and they have not had any intent on making it the best, how did Microsoft make it this far? (you can’t control the consumer vote. Let’s not forget we are in the business to make money and if that means cutting out your competition then do it.)

          3. There are plenty of virus’ and spyware written for LINUX. You are more likely to hear about attacks to MS because it has 90% of the market share. Anyone who thinks they can’t be attacked send me some basic info (that which can be found just as easily as I request it here) and I know people who can hack you.

          4. Anyone with any kind of brain can use windows. Whether you think some people should be allowed to touch computers or not, the fact is everything requires PC knowledge. You can barely drive a car without knowing how to use a computer. I would rather that car be as easy to ride as a bike than difficult to piloting like a rocket ship. With the economy going global the number of ‘stupid’ people using these PCs has increase exponentially. This makes complete since.

          5. Companies with legacy equipment (that means mainframes for you nubes)are facing a serious challenge. This challenge is to be able to find qualified people who can understand, let alone operate, these systems. The same is true for Windows and LINUX. The fact is the two OS’s are quite similar. It’s mostly the shell and the interface that is different (even the command lines follow the same logic). Businesses find it difficult to utilize open source software for these reasons.

          All of these reasons are significant business reasons to choose MS over LINUX/UNIX, whether you want to agree with it or not. In a market where executives can’t see real measurements of productivity with IT, these issues are predominately the first to come to mind and ultimately many executives final decision on this subject.

        • #3189092

          No no and no

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          1) Huh? Assuming this made sense, you are saying that somehow any change made to ANY app or the OS is so large that it changes everything. There is a baseline and that is that an app is still the same app, even with tweaked source code.

          2) MS hold 93% of the desktop market and about 53% of the server market. Businesses are moving away from MS and to *nix because that install base is growing!

          3) Ok, name 30 virus and spyware that can have a major effect on the system outside of the specific user space.

          4) If 4 was true, everyone would use a Mac. The GUI is far easier to use than the Windows GUI AND it is designed for grandma to use. (I think Macs are just expensive toys, but flame away)

          5) Huh? If Windows and Linux are the same why is it difficult to utilize open source software?

          The market executives had better not be choosing my IT stuff. It is easy to measure increased productivity with uptime, traffic metrics, server metrics, security, and usability. You are focusing on the dektop not on servers or IT infrastructure.

        • #3194404

          Lemmings do as lemmings do…

          by blarman ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          Just because 90%+ of other people do something doesn’t mean I should also blindly do the same. That’s a pretty lame argument (insert blue-screen joke here). And the argument that majority opinion declares techonological superiority as absurd to say the least. Where is Microsoft’s true expertise? Marketing. Always has been. But *nix is superior in security. The business trade off is in what is more important – security or a particular application. I think if you look at it objectively, it is the application that determines the operating system, not vice-versa.

          After just writing several MBA papers on relevant topics, here’s an objective opinion of both strengths and weaknesses of both platforms. Just for your information, my background is as a Windows Admin (Oracle 9i Cluster on Win2K and Win2K3 for global company). At home I have a laptop running Win2K and my games box dual-booting between Mandriva 2005 and WinXP Pro. That box boots to either OS quickly, but NeverWinter Nights plays better in Linux, even though the driver install (Radeon 9600 Pro) is an absolute nightmare.

          Software ubiquity – almost all software is written to run on a Windows client. On the server side, things change substantially. But look at games. Until *nix gets a decent graphics package or re-writes X, Windows will be the target of choice.

          Graphical interface – Linux has made HUGE strides in this arena and arguably has a graphical interface almost as good as Windows now. But programming apps for Windows with a good GUI is easier than for Linux due to lack of good hooks for X. *nix has a host of free and open-source applications, but the interfaces often differ so much that they require significant learning time. Microsoft’s close coupling of the OS and the windowing interface is a double-edged sword, however, as poorly written applications (and even some not-so-poorly written ones) can then take down the entire operating system. This can’t happen on *nix. An app might crash X, but can’t take down the OS.

          Command line interface – seriously, anyone who even bats an eyelash before saying *nix wins this no-contest battle is braindead. As for the use of the command line for average Joe User… probably not a good idea. Besides, who doesn’t like to man woman? 😉 (*nix joke)

          Hardware – This one is dead even. Windows has an easier interface and typically better driver support for hardware, but the hardware that has drivers/software in *nix is typically more solid. So, the stuff you get for *nix is solid, but of a smaller selection than the stuff for Windows. I’ve had drivers crash Windows, but never Linux – and on the same box. What do you want? Quality or variety?

          Applications – again, I see this as the main crux of the discussion. If you just need to do a little Internet browsing, some minor productivity stuff like documents and spreadsheets, then both will function just fine – but at different costs. You can pay $300+ for Windows XP + Office, or go and download your favorite flavor of Linux + OpenOffice for free. I’ve used both, and unless you need to use some of the serious data analysis packages in Excel, Open Office has no complaints from me.
          The main reason a lot of businesses use Windows is because that is what they started with and that is what the application was built for. And if that application is critical to your business, end of debate.

          Software installation – The winner here is Windows and Linux both, but for different reasons. The Windows installer is slick. Linux has significantly improved their installers (the take source, make, then install is too complicated for most users) but it does provide some tweaking that can be very nice. The major criticism of software installation on Windows deals with the land mine also known as the Registry. Potentially, apps can hose just about any portion of a Windows box with a bad registry write. Again, this can’t happen on *nix. You can point out dll Hell vs Dependency Heck, but most modern Linux installers take care of these, while Windows’ System Restore can at least help you recover, even if it doesn’t fix the problem.
          The main avenue where *nix wins hands down is security during install. There has been progress, but the profligation of viruses, etc. point to the myriad of problems still prevalent in Redmond-ware.

          Conclusion? What do you need the computer to do? If a specific application drives your business information systems, Windows will often be the selection. If security (like for web-based apps) is paramount, *nix is hard to argue against. If not – there is an open debate involving rollout, support, and user training. You have to weigh the factors and their costs and make a business decision.

        • #3195767


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Lemmings do as lemmings do…

          That’s actually an extremely good run-down, as far as it goes. There’s obviously a lot more that can be said, but for a beginning, that’s great.

          Nice job.

        • #3189066

          Who invited the peanut gallery?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I think you have to understand the Linux Mentality

          XP, given the same installation functionality and the same hardware, does not boot faster. I have personal, extensive experience that belies your little fib.

          Linux does not “just copy Windows apps”. Try looking at examples like Sendmail, BIND, Apache, Ethereal, irssi, netcat, perl, apt, Mserv, Squid, gcc, Vim, iptables, Subversion, grep, wget, and the X Window Server, to name just a few that, at best, Windows (and third-party application developers for Windows) copied, and at worst Windows can’t yet duplicate no matter what you install.

          The “simple fork attack” bugbear gets tossed out every once in a while, and it rarely gets answered. Would you like to know why? I’ll tell you: It doesn’t get answered because recent Linux users have never heard of it. The reason they’ve never heard of it is that recent Linux versions (say, up to ten years old) are effectively immune due to system security. You can stop talking about “a simple fork attack” now, really you can.

          Yes, there are Linux viruses. Unfortunately for your argument, they are of two types:

          1. It’s a genuine Linux-effective virus but, because executables don’t just randomly run on Linux the way they do on Windows, it won’t have system-wide access and cause any real damage unless you log in as root and choose to execute it of your own free will.

          2. It’s actually an email that contains text similar to “This is the Linux email virus. To spread this virus, forward this email to ten people. To execute the virus payload, log in as root, navigate to /, and execute ‘rm -r *’ as soon as you’re done forwarding it to ten people.” Too bad for your argument, this virus works on the honor system.

          Linux isn’t obscure at all: it runs a significant percentage of the webservers currently in operation. 30% of my current support clients have Linux fileservers in their offices. The city of Munich runs on Linux. Wal-Mart sells preinstalled Linux laptops.

          Cost of using Linux higher than Windows . . . ? Okay, now I [b]know[/b] you’re just trolling. How ridiculous can you get?

      • #3186795

        No pre-ordained opinions here…

        by mswanberg ·

        In reply to well now this is an extremely

        Here are my opinions on your takes, and a few more of my own…

        1. Avoid the current because of one potential future? Sounds narrowminded to me. And off-topic.

        2. And Linux does not have these same potential issues? The only reason the majority of these attacks target Windows machines is that the vast majority of PCs run Windows. If and when Linux is the OS on the majority of machines, all a hacker has to do is pour through the EASILY DOWNLOADED source code!

        3. To me, the main reason that Windows machines are considered unstable is that people install and uninstall tons of software on them. I am a well-versed bright experienced computer user and I FREQUENTLY throw up my hands at trying to install Linux apps. It’s like a game the OS plays just to get stuff installed. VERY frequently, I find a Windows equivalent of what I’m looking for, that works, doesn’t require fifty pre-requisites, and installs and configures in about 5 minutes. Perhaps it is this plethora of software that is available for the Windows OS, coupled with the easy install features (and incomplete uninstall features) that makes Windows PCs unstable overall. In the end, I have 4 Windows boxes and 2 Linux boxes at home. The Windows machines run 24/7 with a few hiccups here and there. The Linux boxes, even though they don’t crash, they don’t work, can’t recognize simple hardware configs such as USB keyboards and mice, and when I try to upgrade or install anything, it’s a bloody nightmare. And then I try 45 different flavors of Linux to see if any will give me what I want (something more than an email and www client out-of-the-box would be nice, please), 42 of them don’t set up X right and then I have no GUI. So, yes, of course Linux is stable, because it just sits there, few people can install stuff properly, and then it takes hours upon hours to read manuals and search the net to figure out how to config a file somewhere only to find that file doesn’t exist! It’s maddening. And I’m experienced! Think of what might happen in the hands of an average PC user.

        Here’s an example. I installed RedHat clean, choosing to install EVERYTHING! I consulted one of my several RedHat books (not even generic Linux books, but specifically RedHat books). There would be, for example, “Step 1: edit the blah-blah file looking for these entries.” Well, either the blah-blah file doesn’t exist, or else the entries mentioned do not exist in the file! Frequently this happens! And that’s from a fresh install!

        I have never had anything like that happen on a Windows box. I have never had, for instance, “edit the registry” only to find there IS no registry.

        4. There are generally alternatives to MS’ apps. OpenOffice runs on Windows, for instance. Don’t hate the OS because the apps aren’t to your liking.

        5. Again, that’s apps, not OS.

        All in all, I think Microsoft has done a wonderful job of making PCs accesible to the layperson. Unfortunately, a handful of enterprising twerps have made the experience horrible, with virii, spyware, adware, and other hacks. Is Windows perfect? Of course not. But Linux is hardly a solution either.

        And to blame Windows for the security holes is like blaming the rape victim for the rape. People are attacking, doing illegal things to try and subvert other people’s equipment. Unless Microsoft has these hackers and virus authors on the payroll, I find it hard to believe that they could be at fault.

        I am reminded of a quote from the FreeBSD folks (BTW, FreeBSD couldn’t get X configged right on my machines either): “We do what we do because we love Unix. Linux people do what they do because they hate Windows.”

        • #3186692

          this has to be a joke

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to No pre-ordained opinions here…

          I’m finding it difficult to believe your post wasn’t made in jest, particularly considering your statement about “hackers” (incorrect usage of the term, by the way) and source code availability. Perhaps you’re not familiar with the “many eyes” principle of software security.

          “[i]The only reason the majority of these attacks target Windows machines is that the vast majority of PCs run Windows. If and when Linux is the OS on the majority of machines, all a hacker has to do is pour through the EASILY DOWNLOADED source code![/i]”

          First, no, that’s not the only reason. Windows is an easier target for reasons that are clear to anyone with an understanding of the basic architecture of both OS designs. Something as simple as true multi-user design has a significant effect on OS security.

          Second, no. Reading source code doesn’t magically impart upon one the ability to violate system security. Reverse-engineering tactics are the most effective for finding security holes in software, because it’s not the code that determines a system’s vulnerabilities, but its behavior, and usually at the points where one program communicates with another. In fact, access to the source code even makes it easier to write secure software, for the OS, since you are better able to properly make use of the API when writing code to interface with the OS. On the other hand, access to source code does allow one the ability to improve the source code. I would think someone whose profile describes him/her as a developer would know this.

          “[i]To me, the main reason that Windows machines are considered unstable is that people install and uninstall tons of software on them.[/i]”

          Interesting. Yes, it’s true that refraining from installing and uninstalling software all the time helps keep Windows more stable. On the other hand, I install and uninstall software on my Linux systems [b]all the friggin’ time[/b] and that [b]never[/b] produces system stability problems as a result. Seems to me that Windows has stability issues, based on that.

          “[i]I am a well-versed bright experienced computer user and I FREQUENTLY throw up my hands at trying to install Linux apps.[/i]”

          I can only guess at how you’re trying to accomplish installation of software. You might be doing it wrong. Maybe you should try using a dependency tracking software management system, like aptitude, which is standard on Debian, or YaST2 on SuSE, or emerge on Gentoo, or YUM on Yellow Dog, or any of a number of others. What are you doing, “installing” from source tarballs? There’s nothing wrong with doing that, if that’s how you want to do it, but complaining about dependency tracking if that’s your methodology is a little like complaining that it’s taking too long to get to work in the mornings because you refuse to use your car, or even your bicycle, or for that matter your shoes.

          “[i]Perhaps it is this plethora of software that is available for the Windows OS[/i]”

          Let’s see here . . .
          It seems there are about 15,000 unique software packages in the x86 stable distribution of Debian, in the Main archives alone (not counting Non-Free or Contrib archives). That only includes stuff you can download and install with nothing more complex than a single one-line aptitude command (such as “aptitude install package-name”), or an apt command if you prefer (“apt-get install package-name”). There’s also Synaptic, the acclaimed GUI front-end for that software management system. Windows doesn’t even provide anything anywhere near as simple and easy, let alone anything that offers 15,000 unique software packages. None of this in any way precludes you from installing additional software that isn’t available in the Debian apt archives (or on the full install CD set), though in all the time I’ve used Debian I’ve never had need to install software that wasn’t available using apt or aptitude (both do the same thing, just in slightly different ways). Having gotten used to using the Debian software archives, I find the selection of software available for Windows to be anemic at best, to say nothing of the inconvenience of having to go to the store or order installation CDs for major applications rather than typing “aptitude install package-name” at the command line and waiting about fifteen or twenty seconds for it to finish.

          “[i]they don’t work, can’t recognize simple hardware configs such as USB keyboards and mice, and when I try to upgrade or install anything, it’s a bloody nightmare[/i]”

          What the heck distro are you using? Is this something like Red Hat 6? The problems you’re having aren’t even familiar to me with modern Linux distributions. As for being a bloody nightmare to upgrade or install hardware: When was the last time you swapped out a part in a Linux system and had it tell you that you would have to call the software vendor to get a new OS key?

          “[i]something more than an email and www client out-of-the-box would be nice, please[/i]”

          What else do you need that isn’t provided “out-of-the-box” in Linux but is provided by Windows “out-of-the-box”? Seriously. A standard install with KDE or Gnome usually includes several each of office suites, web browsers, groupware applications, database managers, integrated development environments, revision control systems, media players, image editors, network traffic analyzers, advanced partitioning systems, IM clients, IRC clients, email clients, software management systems, system resource monitors, games, desktop kitsch, CD burning programs, and a number of other things that don’t occur to me off the top of my head. In fact, it’s in part because of the glut of “standard” software with KDE and Gnome (the two most popular desktop environments) that I prefer lighter, leaner window managers.

          “[i]I have never had anything like that happen on a Windows box. I have never had, for instance, ‘edit the registry’ only to find there IS no registry.[/i]”

          Linux doesn’t have a registry. It has separate configuration files. If you don’t want to deal with config files, use GUI or Curses-based configuration editing utilities. If you really, really want a registry, use Gnome, which now has a registry of its own.

          “[i]There are generally alternatives to MS’ apps. OpenOffice runs on Windows, for instance. Don’t hate the OS because the apps aren’t to your liking.[/i]”

          Don’t tell me you don’t know that runs on Linux. In fact, that’s where it started. Some kind soul ported it to Windows to help wean people off that rat’s-nest of software Microsoft is churning out. As for alternatives, you should see the long list of alternatives that show up when I type “apt-cache search office”.

          “[i]And to blame Windows for the security holes is like blaming the rape victim for the rape.[/i]”

          No, blaming Windows for a specific virus would be like blaming the victim for the rape. Blaming Windows for security holes would be like blaming the victim for walking into a maximum security prison sporting a shirt that says “rapists are pussies that can’t get it up”.

          There might be some truth in that quote from the FreeBSD camp (and I’ve seen it before). After all, I’m a Microsoft-certified IT professional that used Windows for years before trying Linux on for size. It’s my in-depth knowledge of Windows that made a Linux lover of me.

        • #3180114

          “A world of software for windows”

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to this has to be a joke

          a universe of software for *x

          that’s the best answer to the software options, ms’ own ad campaign that only tells one part of the story.

          and it’s on average 20 thousand separate applications available from a 3 cd install.

          get windows, 1 cd
          get office 1 cd
          get web server 1 cd
          get sql server 1 cd
          get dvd playback/burning software
          get graphics apps
          get more multimedia apps.
          already you have spent far longer getting and installing and configuring software for windows and nowhere near the amount of software installed.

          these windows guys really don’t understand the power and flexibility or choice options of linux do they?

        • #3183114

          more options

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to “A world of software for windows”

          “[i]these windows guys really don’t understand the power and flexibility or choice options of linux do they?[/i]”

          No kidding. With nothing more complex than “aptitude install [packagename]” I have about 15,000 unique software packages in the Debian archives at my fingertips, and most take a few seconds to install. There’s none of this Windows crap with days of waiting for an application install CD to arrive by mail, hundreds of dollars to buy it, and an hour or two installing it, and aside from that I’ve never even seen 15,000 applications available for Windows. Where do all these people get the impression that there’s a lot more software available for Windows? Nothing could be further from the truth.

        • #3182922
          Avatar photo

          Well I suppose

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to more options

          When they pick up one of those nice color broacher’s that have the Sales in them they only see Windose software for sale so obviously there just can not be any applications available for Linux or Walmart would be selling them right?

          Col ]:)

        • #3182876

          good point

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Well I suppose

          Then again, Walmart IS selling Linux software. See, you can buy that Balance laptop running Linux with a whole bunch of software pre-installed. Heh.

        • #3182847
          Avatar photo

          But you do get the general idea

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Well I suppose

          I only used Walmart because so many US Peers say nasty things about it not being in the US I really wouldn’t know but being so big I thought of them. 🙁

          Col ]:)

        • #3183416

          Yes I do.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Well I suppose

          I was just picking a nit for fun.

        • #3195777

          Software distribution

          by blarman ·

          In reply to more options

          “Where do all these people get the impression that there’s a lot more software available for Windows? Nothing could be further from the truth.”

          Marketing, of which Microsoft is undisputably king. There is a lot of software out there – but most people only know about the Windows software and the source sites for it – ergo the perception. To change the perception, you have to market the products and inform the users. Just like in a Presendential election – it’s often the one that spends the most money to get the name recognition that gets elected.

          Standard Marketing 101 – customers have to know about a product, then be informed of its benefits in terms of competitors, before making the choice to buy. If they only know about one product that will fit their needs – a Windows-based one – then the decision is settled because they don’t know about the alternatives.

          Oh, and though I respect Linux a lot, it doesn’t have the necessary support for high-end games. Rogue Spear anyone? World of WarCraft? Not on Linux. Fix this problem and Linux becomes a competitor to Windows in a lot more households, because – let’s be honest – the real reason most people have a computer is to PLAY GAMES!!!!!

        • #3195762


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Software distribution

          Yeah, it was a rhetorical question. Clearly, the lion’s share of marketing clout is on the Microsoft side of the tracks: you hit the nail on the head. Windows platform applications also benefit from the ubiquity of Windows itself, which provides them with greater visibility thusly. Windows, meanwhile, owes a lot of its ubiquity to the fact that it was the natural upgrade path from DOS, which was available for home use on cheap home hardware long before any killer-app-supporting unix was available on cheap home hardware, thus giving the Microsoft marketing machine its initial user base as a captive audience.

          re: games
          I’ve actually run across some mention of rabid Linux devotees playing WoW, so I’m not sure WoW isn’t capable of being run on Linux, perhaps by way of WINE or Cedega. TR user jmgarvin would be better informed on that subject than I am, though: I don’t really follow the gaming news at all.

        • #3189160

          everyone has a choice

          by jd_russell2003 ·

          In reply to “A world of software for windows”

          Everyone has a choice what kind of software they want to put on their machine. I keep hearing about the apps do this and the apps do that and that’s why we like LINUX/UNIX is because it doesn’t have as many apps.

          In a corporate business environment I promise there are no unnecessary apps running on machines unless the network admins don’t have a clue. I only install apps I need period. And I disable most of the standard services and change many of the standard ports.

          The only virus I got was one that I opened from a friend before I really knew where the power button was. The only spyware I’ve gotten is spyware I’ve downloaded through 3rd party software and I didn’t read the EULA. Once I developed an understanding for the way a PC works and how viruses, spam, spy-ware, and worms affect them, I’ve never had a problem.

          Don’t blame a corporations product because of a lack of knowledge by home users. Learn to be proactive rather than re-active. Learn to make valuable decisions instead of feeling “stuck with no choices”.

        • #3189090

          Please tell me how to stop spyware on user desktops

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to everyone has a choice

          If you can solve this, you’ll make millions.

          The problem is that MS doesn’t split user space into user space and kernel space into kernel space. It is all globbed together.

          As far as the no apps for Linux. What apps aren’t available that you need?

        • #3182867

          Interesting post but…

          by robert meppelink ·

          In reply to this has to be a joke

          Linux won’t run Photoshop, Painter, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, or Fireworks, except in a windows emulator that would slow them down too much for my taste or patience (and I can’t afford powerful enough hardware to make an emulator run well). I need these programs like I need air or water. If they were ported to linux to run natively, then I would consider switching, but not before.

          “that rat’s-nest of software Microsoft is churning out”… yes maybe so in some ways(FrontPage certainly), but I love long writing sessions in word 2003…love the grammar check which is amazingly sophisticated at this point. The annoying stuff can be turned off. Rationality requires admission that some of what MS turns out is good.

          Anyway, that’s my .02…don’t mock me too much, as I’m a graphics and writing type, not a programmer or sys admin and I don’t know 1/4 as much as most of you (and I don’t mean that sarcastically).

          On second thought, I am a linux user (in my Directv Tivo) and it’s cool and stable there, except I’m totally disgusted the USB ports are disabled and that it would take a computer science degree (I least from my viewpoint), or about $200 minimum, to hack a fix for that.

        • #3182843
          Avatar photo

          But that is just the point

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Interesting post but…

          That is why M$ has done so well they have got the major Software Houses to write code for their product “Windows” only and go to great lengths to stop them from changing this like what happened to Corel.

          Incidentally Word Perfect still is better than word it has a better Spell & Grammar checker as well as a lot of other nice features that MS still has not come close to emulating. AS well as being able to be opened in either WP or Word mode it works seamlessly with Word which is a lot more than can be said for the MS offering when you convert WP Documents to Word you loose a lot of the formatting.

          Col ]:)

        • #3183408

          thanks for the response

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Interesting post but…

          I don’t know for sure what alternatives are available for all the applications you’ve indicated. I do all my web development by hacking the code directly, so I’ve never bothered to find out whether there’s a functional equivalent of Dreamweaver. WYSIWYG web design tools haven’t been high on my list since I stopped using Dreamweaver three years or so ago. I’m not really sure what illustration tools there are, either, or what tools there are for GIF and PNG animation. For direct image editing, though, in the style of Photoshop, I use the GIMP. I have yet to run across any indication that the GIMP is lacking in comparison to Photoshop and, in fact, I prefer the GIMP’s interface over that of Photoshop because the tools aren’t hidden the same way they tend to be in Photoshop. It also requires considerably less system resources to run the GIMP than Photoshop these days.

          I’m sure there are a number of specific tools for which there aren’t analogs in the unix world, but they are few and far between. In fact, now that Macs are running a unix-based OS, that may not even be true of any graphic design tools any longer. Now that most of the major issues of MacOS have been ironed out by migrating to a unix kernel, you might want to think about moving off Windows if all you’re missing on Linux is web design related tools.

          In specific cases, there may well be a couple applications here and there on Windows for which there don’t exist acceptable alternatives on Linux. In my experience, though, there are far more applications (and servers) that run on Linux for which there aren’t any acceptable alternatives on Windows. I never meant to suggest that individual vendor-specific applications that ran only on Windows didn’t exist.

          Obviously, if you need a WYSIWYG web design tool, and if there isn’t a worthwhile alternative available on Linux, you should stick with something like a Mac or Windows box where it is available. I never meant to suggest otherwise.

          Of course, I would definitely suggest that between MacOS X and Linux all the functionality of Windows has been covered.

        • #3186663


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to No pre-ordained opinions here…

          “1. Avoid the current because of one potential future? Sounds narrowminded to me. And off-topic.”

          Ok, sure…but one needs to look to the future to PLAN how their organization will work in 5 years.

          “2. And Linux does not have these same potential issues? The only reason the majority of these attacks target Windows machines is that the vast majority of PCs run Windows. If and when Linux is the OS on the majority of machines, all a hacker has to do is pour through the EASILY DOWNLOADED source code!”

          NONONONONONONO! *nix is a true multiuser environment. Windows fakes the funk. What this means that in every *nix install each users has their own user space. However, in Windows I have user space and “other” space that I can use. I have too much power to change the whole OS as a user in Windows, I just can’t do this very easily in *nix.

          As for the source code argument, it doesn’t hold water. The problem here is that source code != vulnerability. Attacks focus on how the software operates rather than the underlying code. Sure, I might be able to dig up an obscure vulnerability here and there, but for the most part it really doesn’t matter if I have the source or not.

          “3. To me, the main reason that Windows machines are considered unstable is that people install and uninstall tons of software on them. I am a well-versed bright experienced computer user and I FREQUENTLY throw up my hands at trying to install Linux apps. It’s like a game the OS plays just to get stuff installed. VERY frequently, I find a Windows equivalent of what I’m looking for, that works, doesn’t require fifty pre-requisites, and installs and configures in about 5 minutes. Perhaps it is this plethora of software that is available for the Windows OS, coupled with the easy install features (and incomplete uninstall features) that makes Windows PCs unstable overall. In the end, I have 4 Windows boxes and 2 Linux boxes at home. The Windows machines run 24/7 with a few hiccups here and there. The Linux boxes, even though they don’t crash, they don’t work, can’t recognize simple hardware configs such as USB keyboards and mice, and when I try to upgrade or install anything, it’s a bloody nightmare. And then I try 45 different flavors of Linux to see if any will give me what I want (something more than an email and www client out-of-the-box would be nice, please), 42 of them don’t set up X right and then I have no GUI. So, yes, of course Linux is stable, because it just sits there, few people can install stuff properly, and then it takes hours upon hours to read manuals and search the net to figure out how to config a file somewhere only to find that file doesn’t exist! It’s maddening. And I’m experienced! Think of what might happen in the hands of an average PC user.”

          This is just FUD. If you are using Gnome or KDE you can install many packages by double clicking on them. Also a TON of packages are now coming with install scripts, so it is even easier! I don’t understand what the hassle is with installing stuff in Linux. The hardest install is a ./configure && make && make install. For the most part, this is rare and you can use various package managers to just get the package for you! With Red Hat likes, the rpms are easy to deal with and you have cool tools like up2date, yum, and apt-get. You just point and click!

          “Here’s an example. I installed RedHat clean, choosing to install EVERYTHING! I consulted one of my several RedHat books (not even generic Linux books, but specifically RedHat books). There would be, for example, “Step 1: edit the blah-blah file looking for these entries.” Well, either the blah-blah file doesn’t exist, or else the entries mentioned do not exist in the file! Frequently this happens! And that’s from a fresh install!”

          What are you talking about? What files do you need to edit and why? What is so hard about CREATING a file if it doesn’t exist?

          Also in many window managers you have nice little search tools AND you can just double click on what you want to edit and a handy text editor opens!!

          “I have never had anything like that happen on a Windows box. I have never had, for instance, “edit the registry” only to find there IS no registry.”

          How about find this reg key? I’ve tried to edit a reg key that doesn’t exist…loads of fun. Or when Active Directory doesn’t change the reg keys so it isn’t actually running, but looks like it is. Tons o’ fun.

          “4. There are generally alternatives to MS’ apps. OpenOffice runs on Windows, for instance. Don’t hate the OS because the apps aren’t to your liking.”

          Ok…I use Windows at home for some things like gaming, but Windows is clunky. I don’t like using the apps in the OS…

          “All in all, I think Microsoft has done a wonderful job of making PCs accesible to the layperson.”

          Sort of. The problem is when you get a BSoD, the layperson freaks out and turns off their computer in fear of doing something. They then call the helpdesk and waste everyones time. When this happens multiple times a DAY, you have to ask, is this really a good thing?

          “Unfortunately, a handful of enterprising twerps have made the experience horrible, with virii, spyware, adware, and other hacks. Is Windows perfect? Of course not. But Linux is hardly a solution either.”

          Why not? Linux is more secure out of the box than Windows. Plus, Linux has a ton of features that Windows is just NOW starting to implement. A big thing is that more and more stuff is integrated into the Windows OS and that leads to more and more security holes.

          “And to blame Windows for the security holes is like blaming the rape victim for the rape.”

          Not quite. Blaming Windows for the security holes is like blaming Yugo for making an unreliable car. Windows is made insecure because MS doesn’t care about security. They are finally starting to care, but it may be too late. Win2k3 is a good step forward, but it still has strange issues and SP1 BREAKS the server…nice…

          “People are attacking, doing illegal things to try and subvert other people’s equipment. Unless Microsoft has these hackers and virus authors on the payroll, I find it hard to believe that they could be at fault.”

          How could they not be? If they made their OS secure, than it wouldn’t be an issue.

          “I am reminded of a quote from the FreeBSD folks (BTW, FreeBSD couldn’t get X configged right on my machines either): ‘We do what we do because we love Unix. Linux people do what they do because they hate Windows.'”

          De Raadt is a little nutty. He lives in a very black and white world and sees Linux as a threat to the “clarity” of Unix. The problem is that De Raadt is wrong and he is taking the whole Linux community out of context.

        • #3186651


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Huh?

          “[i]De Raadt is a little nutty.[/i]”

          Only a little?!

          Besides, he’s OpenBSD, not FreeBSD. Heh. I think you’re right about the quote originating with him, but the person to whom you respond seems to have been referring to some FreeBSD enthusiast that repeated the quote (perhaps without knowing where it originated).

        • #3186603


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Theo

          You are correct…he is more than a little nutty…oh and it is OpenBSD 😉

      • #3186580

        Sour Grapes

        by richman316 ·

        In reply to well now this is an extremely

        What a bunch of sour grapes. I’ve been using Windows since 3.1, my company that I work for uses nothing but Windows yet we thrive. Yes windows has it’s con’s but so does every other OS out there. I’ve used linux, Unix and others and always run back to MSW. Since MSW is at the top it makes sence for virus/malware writers to try to break it. I would gurantee you that any other OS that gets up ther will deal with the same headaches. Bottom line is MSW is more productive to the average user and that carries a lot of weight.

        • #3180131
          Avatar photo

          What a Crock of ####

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Sour Grapes

          While the desktop might be the Windows domain the high end servers certainly are not nor are the big Server farms/Blade Arrays/ Mainframes that the banks and other financial institutions use. Then there is the Internet that is built in Unix/Linux and Apache.

          Whenever there is a Denial of Service Attack why do you think it is possible to get the message that such and such a site is unavailable if the majority of machines actually did run Windows of some flavor the Internet would be crashing on a daily basis your ISP would be unavailable most of the time and you wouldn’t expect to receive E-Mail before Snail Mail if at all.

          The fact of the matter is that all the big end of town who have the money and the secrets do run Unix/Linux and have done since time began well at least Computer Time and they are rock solid.

          The only reason that MSW is more productive to the “Adverage User” is that they use it at home so the company doesn’t have to pay for training the staff so of course productivity will be better but would you go to a brain surgeon because he did a lot of operations or because he was trained and knew what he was doing. Windows users fall into the first group IT professionals are supposed to fall into the second group. Apparently that is no longer the case so we are allowing the continued Dumbing Down of the industry that we work in and then wonder why jobs get outsourced.

          Col ]:)

        • #3189155

          windows is not brain surgery

          by jd_russell2003 ·

          In reply to What a Crock of ####

          nobody’s life is on the line here. If it were then we could sue microsoft if necessary.

          After reading most of your posts to this arguement I understand that your problem with Microsoft is actually a deep rooted problem within yourself and your expectations of things. The industry is being dumbed down because the technology makes it easier to do. Let’s copy and paste (let’s not bother to check what we’ve copied and pasted) and then we can use spell checker to make sure we don’t sound like a bunch of idiots. Then we can blame the software for not catching our grammer usage because we’ve relied on a software written by imperfect people for only about 20 years or so.

          For hundreds of years man has attempted to conquered nature through utilization of technology. In the process we have become lazy and don’t care why something does what it does. We just want it to work. We don’t care why it won’t, just that it doesn’t.

          While I am not of the same thinking the really sad truth is that most people just don’t care. If they can just do a restart and the problem goes away, who cares?

          While I can appreciate your desire to be known for your absoluteness and brilliance, and I can appreciate that you notice our standards being dumbed, I can’t understand how you run a successfull business without at least a basic understanding of this. And if you do have this basic understanding where do you mention it to your users? For someone who provides IT support, consultation, and services it escapes me how any company would ever take you serious. While your knowledge of PCs and OSs far surpasses mine nothing you have said is convincing either way.

        • #3194723
          Avatar photo

          Well maybe it could be

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to windows is not brain surgery

          That here I’m not needing to sell myself or my skill set. But if you go back to even the DOS days the end users did know how to create a Spread Sheet DBase or whatever.

          Today they do not and at a recent visit to a Computer School that specialized in teaching Advanced Office usage they didn’t consider the need to show their students how to perform a Mail Merge. Now pardon me if I’m way out of line here but wasn’t one of the arguments when the PC hit the office that it would do away with informal form letters and personalize them all? This used to happen but it doesn’t now days why is it so?

          Anyway when I sell a system it doesn’t matter if it is a workstation or a complete network my staff and myself teach the end users how to work the system and we spend a lot of time doing this so they are far more productive, instead of like most others just dumping the hardware in the place and running as fast as our legs will carry us. It’s called SERVICE which is something that I find sadly lacking in almost all of the so called Professional places that I run across they are all out to make as much money in as short a time as possible.

          The way that we work ensures follow up business and currently we have not lost a single client that has stayed solvent to other sources.

          Most of the customers have their favorite Tech as well and they want these same people to continue to return there whenever they have a problem. I think it is known as “Good Will” which is something that isn’t thought about today. 😀

          While it’s true that I don’t want to be the next Bill Gates I am making enough money for my needs and whats more I don’t have to advertise as my customers do this for me by passing on my business to all the companies that they deal with. I’ve been there earning several K per hour and I’m now quite happy to do the real work and help the customers out by working with them instead of just selling them what it is that they think they need and then moving on to the next one and promptly forget about the last one. It may also be a small part of the reason why I do so much insurance work.

          But if you want to see someone who’s lazy you need go no further than me but I firmly believe if you do it right the first time you don’t have to go back and do it all over again, so while we do work a bit differently to the current industry we have our clients and a growing base of them as well and what’s even better is that they are genuinely glad to see us when we arrive there and are thankful for our efforts.

          As I keep saying IT is a service industry where we are a means to an end rather than the end itself, this is something that many do not want to understand!

          Just a side note here while IT isn’t “Brain Surgery” there are still quite a few fields where if we do stuff up it cost lives, this could be from not maintaining a Medical DBase correctly and the patient files get messed up or a CAD program spits out the wrong data and something is made that places peoples lives in danger because the system wasn’t working correctly so while you are correct that IT isn’t Brain Surgery you can not forget that peoples lives still hang in the balance in quite a few of the industries that we support so we have to get it right and keep getting it right.

          Incidentally have you actually worked in a OR? I have and quite a lot of the equipment used for Brain Surgery is computer or microprocessor controlled so we have to treat that a lot more carefully than what we do a desktop workstation for the secretary in a Sales Office. Just do not forget just how much of the current technology relies on Silicon!

          Col ]:)

      • #3189158

        Here we go again

        by paul ·

        In reply to well now this is an extremely

        Operating system is to operate the computer. It must be as easy to use as possible. This is what Windows does well. Most people using computer use it to do work. Not to be geeks. So for the average office, or home accounting, Windows is the only choice. We IT people seems to forget what are computers here for. To us this is our focus of attention, something we studied, but to the end user this is a machine supporting what they do for living. When Linux becomes populated with good software aimed at peoples need, simple to use, we will see more of them going over to Linux. Sun is trying hard to get people on Sun bandwagon, but how many programs can you run on java desktop? So lets be realistic. Linux has its place in small server environment, Unix is still the king of the heap in big stuff. I agree with all the gripes about Windows, but do you actually know programming, something about writing code, creating kernel? It is impossible to write all encompassing OS without faults. If Microsoft takes the secret out of Windows kernel and let the open community tinker with it, we will see good Windows sooner than later, but they chose not to and we must respect that. Another point; lot of virus and hacker attacks are generated just to prove Windows weakness by professional people like you. Good intentions perhaps, but incorrect results in the end. Remember, we are in existence to help the rest of population to help them to bridge the cleft between technology and humans. These people who use computers for work don’t need to be experts in OS or computer technology. If they know how to push Start button, that’s all they need to know.

        • #3189148

          smart ones post last

          by jd_russell2003 ·

          In reply to Here we go again

          why do i have read through hundreds of forums to finally get answers from people that really understand the decision making processes in IT.

          Understanding this process is more than just being able to point fingers at problems. The process involves maximizing productivity without impacting profitability.

        • #3189139

          So I must be smarter than you

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to smart ones post last


          Poor software is a waste of money and does not maximise productivity.

          Maximising Productivity and profitability in a business are laudable goals, they could be sensible ones as well, all you have to do is think past the next period end.
          Lets write low quality crap so we can make a profit now and if we achieve market dominance for evermore is a very hit and miss strategy and in the long term doomed to failure.

        • #3194584

          Nice buzz words

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to smart ones post last

          but when you figure out how to generically do that for every company, let me know…I want to invest.

          How do we maximize productivity? How do we NOT impact profitability? How do we maintain incoming cash flow via web services?

        • #3189143

          Not surprising is it

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Here we go again

          seeing as you are still not paying attention.

          I’m one of these people, is the only thing I need to know where the start button is ?

          Yes I do know programming, so yes I understand the ms have made a conscious decision for a low quality broadly applicable OS in order to successfully grow their business.

          However I don’t want to write low quality programs, I don’t want the quality of the software I write to suffer a low quality OS. I’m not interested in being dumbed down, what do I get out of that ?.

          Quality code can be written, it is not impossible, it is simply less profitable.

          Everytime I’m forced to sacrifice quality for business expediency it hurts, because that drive for quality is what I enjoy and what makes me good at what I do.

          Good enough has pervaded our business for far too long. What’s seems to be happening now is IT business’s are again starting to differentiate themselves on quality. These business’s will survive, the get rich quick bodge it merchants will move onto some other scheme leaving a trail of failure from their last venture.

          The fact that THEY made a profit from said failure is a very narrow and counter-productive measure of success.

        • #3194569


          by jd_russell2003 ·

          In reply to Not surprising is it

          where does MS fit into all of that?

        • #3195769

          The same place you fitted them

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to then………..

          The way MS chose to succeed in the market has proliferated all the way through IT.
          Quality is regularly the first casualty of IT business.
          They led the way, all the dumbass lemmings in sheeps clothing followed them right off the edge of the cliff.
          Watching them attempting to fly before they go splat would be quite funny if they weren’t carrying my livelyhood. Designing a safe landing for my current employer at the moment.

          It’s not a ms specific or even IT specific problem, but business nowadays is dominated not by maximising productivity or profitability but by maximising shareholder value through short term gains.

          When you hear crap like. Lets sack half of our infra-structure support types because everything is running smoothly, you know the guy’s responsible for that decision have a collective IQ below 30.
          Short term solutions = long term problems

          As soon as cost cutting(profit enhancing) measures cut quality you are on the path to extinction and just as a propeller head isn’t qualified to run a business, a bean counter isn’t qualified to judge technical quality.

        • #3195673

          but that

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to The same place you fitted them

          “bean counter” should be kept out of the decision loop also, unless it is a bean counting business.

          the bean counter’s are the ones that make the real bonehead cost cutting to maximise profits short term decisions.

    • #3173289

      Pros and Cons

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Cons of Windows9X. Not supported.
      Cons of Windows ME. Not supported.

      More vendors are not providing support for these older OS’s. Some Flash drives will NOT work with anything lower than Win2K.

      Symantec AntiVirus is NOT supporting anything lower than Win2K with version 10 and up. Version 9 will continue to get definition updates for about a year and a half more, but no more search engine updates to look for the new threats that are coming out of the woodwork.

      NT is in this same boat.

      Con of Windows 2000. Am I the only one that laughs at startup where it says it is build on NT Technology? NT=New Technology thus it is built on New Technology Technology. That was really well thought out!

      Cons of Windows XP. We all saw how “secure” it was.
      Then SP1 came to save the day. (for a few days) and then we were right back in the frying pan.

      Then SP2 came to save the day. (for a few days) provided it didn’t BREAK your existing applications and it was the FAULT of your third party vendors that the applications just STOPPED working when you did the SP2 upgrade.

      Another problem with XP, it has been out for a few years now. Everyone is pushing to upgrade TO XP. Just in time for the NEXT OS to come out? If I have a group of system that are not on XP, this late in the life cycle shouldn’t I just wait for the NEXT OS release?

      Pros of Win2k and XP. Handle memory much better than the previous Microsoft products. Always a BAD thing when the product that you hold up as a comparison to being better than is your own product!

      Hope this helps.

      • #3175420


        by cactus pete ·

        In reply to Pros and Cons

        Do you have a link to a Microsoft site that explains the naming of NT as “New Technology”? I’ve been looking for it and can’t find it.

        • #3175418


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to NT

          MS dropped the “ew” “echnology” from NT and now it is just a term.

          Though back in the day NT 4.0 was “New Technology Server” 4.0…so yes…NT does mean that, but I think the meaning has been lost to the ages…

        • #3175407


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to IIRC

          You beat me to the explanation. I guess only old farts like me (in computing terms, at least) remember when NT was New Technology.

        • #3175396

          Not helping…

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to ‘zackly

          I don’t see it on the MS site… I need it there to win a bet.

        • #3175375

          I just googled NT + “New Technology”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Not helping…

          Here are a few NT manuals on-line. That should be all you need to win your bet!

          What do you get?

        • #3175368


          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to I just googled NT + “New Technology”

          I had bad terms on the bet… I have to find it on the MS sites…

        • #3175349

          Your Opponent was Crafty

          by aceskaraoke ·

          In reply to I just googled NT + “New Technology”

          MS Sites that talk in depth about old MS offerings are rare indeed.

          You should at least be able to declare it a draw, because you were right…even if the proof existed other than in an MS Site….

          Unless your opponent was crafty AND ruthless.

        • #3174885
          Avatar photo

          Well in that case you’ll most likely

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Not helping…

          Loose the bet. MS has removed a lot of stuff off their site, even try to find a XP computably tester now days they are no longer available as all the new hardware is XP compatible.

          But if you can dig up a copy of an NT4 Server manual I’m sure it’s in there as NT standing for New Technology. That should prove just as effective as real Proof as it is in a M$ Manual but I don’t think you’ll find any reference to what NT stood for all those years ago on the M$ Web Site.

          Col ]:)

        • #3172607
        • #3174877

          Okay . . . try this.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not helping…

          Here’s a URL for a transcript of a Bill Gates Q&A where he says NT originally stood for “New Technology”, but has since (in his own words) lost its meaning.

          Hopefully that’ll help. Do I get a cut of whatever you win?

        • #3174843

          And we have a WINNER!

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          Good find Apotheon!

          I did some looking, but mostly for old white papers and manuals for download but came up empty.

          And as that IS from the Micro$oft website that should meet the conditions of the bet.

          Now, what did you bet?!?!?

        • #3174752


          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          I’ll certainly give it a try!

        • #3174750


          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          He caved. If you’re in Chicago, send me a message and you get a free lunch.

        • #3174744


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          I’m in Florida. That’s close to Chicago, right? In galactic terms, at least?


          Well, I’ll just have to be satisfied with the knowledge of a job well-done, I guess.

          Hint: If you can’t find it on Google, find it in Wikipedia. I checked out the Windows NT article at Wikipedia and followed a link to the MS site from there that had the reference you needed. Yes, I know [b]all[/b] the tricks.

        • #3174741


          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          So close 😛 I looked in wiki, but i don’t normally follow their links…

          Should you ever have the misfortune to vacation up here, you’ll get the lunch. We just won’t talk national politics.

        • #3174686

          sounds like a plan

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          Of course, I’m not sure who’d choose Chicago as a vacation spot. Heh.

        • #3174660

          Actually, Chicago ROCKS on the weekends!

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          GREAT blues bars to go to, and a good night life.

          Wow, can’t believe I didn’t even get an honorable mention for giving the first correct answer before the added stipulations got added in…….

          Glad you won anyways. So, WHAT WAS THE BET?

        • #3179007

          Please talk politics!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          I want to watch…that would be better than any of the crap coming out of hollywood anyway 🙂

        • #3177993

          You want politics?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          Check out the misc tpoic header, and the “too hot for TR” stuff…

        • #3177861

          I know…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Okay . . . try this.

          I lurk and laugh. I love to see the flames just get higher and higher with each post 😉

        • #3178005

          Here’s one answer

          by rknrlkid ·

          In reply to Not helping…

          You have to scroll through to find the Bill Gates remark and explanation:

        • #3176743

          Had to be ON the M$ site

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Here’s one answer

          The person he had the bet with KNEW what it meant, and also knew that there had been a purge big time of any reference to it from the M$ site and was hoping for the loophole to win this bet.

          apotheon came along and saved the day!

          It is all in the details.

        • #3186610

          I think this gets to the bottom of why “New” technology

          by jennyn ·

          In reply to Here’s one answer

          I went to an MS pre-release marketing demo of NT back in 19…. they were selling it strong on its new “multi-threading” technology – that is why the NT logo shows interweaving threads, and that is the “New Technology” the operating system offered.

          Rather than relying on time slicing to create the impression of multi-tasking (as prior versions of windows did – sharing a single processor thread back and forth between processes – slowing them all down), New Technology, they said, genuinely multi-tasked making full use of the processor power… anyway that’s what they told me!

        • #3175377

          Kind of like

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to ‘zackly

          when people say they put in a new NIC card. I cringe EVERYTIME I hear that.

        • #3175277

          A bit off the track but….

          by el_gazzítò ·

          In reply to Kind of like

          Even better is when you start up a PC without a keyboard connected and it comes up with:

          “Keyboard Error. Press F1 to Continue”… ]}:- >


        • #3175273

          kernel panic

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to A bit off the track but….

          lpt1 on fire


          like I wouldn’t see the fire before turning the danged box on in the first place

        • #3176945

          You mean like PIN number?

          by jonespj ·

          In reply to Kind of like

          You mean like PIN number?

        • #3176745


          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to You mean like PIN number?

          cringe cringe cringe….

          Worse than finger nails on a chalkboard is the rantings of the uninformed…..

          How about when someone gets a hot water hearer? Why would you heat hot water? I PERSONALLY have a COLD water heater.

        • #3176686
          Avatar photo

          Or the

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You mean like PIN number?

          ATM machine?

          Col ]:)

        • #3172589

          Keep your pants on

          by danag429 ·

          In reply to You mean like PIN number?

          …….but if I’m wearing a pair of pants, then what is one pant??

        • #3176711

          I hate

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Kind of like

          Warsh…There is no R in wash!!!

          Oh, and PAM module…where did that come from?

        • #3176683

          I axed you

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I hate

          to stop saying warsh, I hate that!


        • #3178585

          or . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I hate

          HIV virus. Friggin’ scientists and doctors say this. WTF?

          Has anyone mentioned HIV virus in this thread, yet?

        • #3178555

          I just heard

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I hate

          Virutal VLAN!! ARRGGGG…Venti is another word I hate, but it is a purely personal thing…

        • #3178682

          Here’s another NIC card!

          by ni70 ·

          In reply to Kind of like

          Hahaha network interface card card! That chaps me big time, especially if it comes from colleagues or instructors!

        • #3178661

          Clearly you need to get a life.

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Here’s another NIC card!

          Cause if you find this hilarious……

          That would make you a pedant.

          Get a big dic(tionary) and go look up pedantic.


        • #3178611

          WOW James!

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Here’s another NIC card!

          Never seen that side of you. Someone cut down your favorite tree?

          And just because he pointed out EXACTLY the same thing that was in the post he replied to is no reason to go off the deep end.

          You Canadians are WAY to radical. You need to mellow out some like your American neighbors!

        • #3176333


          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Here’s another NIC card!

          You have me confused with those left coast mellow dudes like Oz. Here in Toronto(and all of the rest of Canada hates Toronto, moreso than say Americans hate New York), we aren’t very mellow. We have traffic and smog and overcrowding.

          In the past ten years my suburb has gone from 300,000 to 400,000 people with no new major arterial roads, not enough new schools, no new hospital(being built now). Day by day, the commute is getting longer and more dangerous.

          So why would I mellow out?


          P.S. I’ve probably said NIC cards before. But hey I’ve worked with thousands of them, from 3C503s to IBM Token Ring to Apple Local Talk and Ethernet to wireless cards. Its one thing to point out the humour, its another to be pedantic. Life is too short.

        • #3177218


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Here’s another NIC card!

          If anyone’s being pedantic here, James Linn, I’d say it’s probably you.

        • #3172588


          by mckendrick ·

          In reply to Kind of like

          if doing so involved stopping at the ATM machine and using a PIN number.

      • #3177853


        by jfowler ·

        In reply to Pros and Cons

        No, you’re not alone in chuckling at “New Technology Technology”. I know several people using Win2k (myself among them) who think it is classic M$ cyberbabble.

      • #3189154

        finally something that matters

        by jd_russell2003 ·

        In reply to Pros and Cons

        I agree completely

    • #3175929

      Opinion of a Macintosh user

      by gene.fellner ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      From my perspective, Windows seems to have been designed by computer programmers for computer programmers. It requires constant “fiddling” that can only be done by someone with the time, interest, and talent to become a software expert.

      • #3175910

        sure . . .

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to Opinion of a Macintosh user

        That’d make sense if there was any way to fix all those problems. There isn’t, though. If you want to be able to fiddle [i]effectively[/i], you have to use something open source, like Linux or *BSD.

      • #3175897


        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Opinion of a Macintosh user

        In OS X I can fiddle far more than I can with Windows.

        Windows is a crummy OS for fiddling and it is very hard to get down to the nitty gritty with it…

      • #3175827

        Have you USED Windows?

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Opinion of a Macintosh user

        It is designed for people that “don’t have the time” to learn how to become efficient at anything. Simple is Windows’ middle name!

        Then again, the users ARE able to handle a mouse with more than one button without getting confused….

        • #3175812

          Low blow!!! ;-)

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Have you USED Windows?

          Man…That was low. I do miss having a 3 button mouse in OS X. I wish Macs came with better mice

        • #3175782

          just buy one

          by davemori ·

          In reply to Low blow!!! ;-)

          optical mice are cheap. all the brand names (big and small) that I have tried, just seem to work without even loading drivers. just buy one and plug it in.

        • #3175748

          Why don’t Macs COME with them?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to just buy one

          My PC came with a 5 button mouse, why don’t Macs? I mean seriously…*nix requires more than one button to be used efficiently.

          Thank god they finally got rid of that hockey puck that weighed 50 lbs.

        • #3175404

          bad advice

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to just buy one

          You can’t “just buy” a three-button pointing device that’s built into your Powerbook. [b]THAT[/b] is the major problem with the one-button mouse design that Apple insists on sticking us with. It is beyond aggravating.

        • #3175769

          and this

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Low blow!!! ;-)

          is a good reason to avoid macs.
          apple can’t even get thier minds wrapped around the concept that the mouse is supposed to reduce keystrokes, not require them.

          ( never mind breaking an open source os and ruining compatability when they turned it into os ten )

        • #3175717

          Yeah but

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to and this

          they are so cuuuuuttttteeee!

          Not to mention, I heard Toy-R-Us has them on sale? 🙂

          Seriously, the mouse issue really puts them into question….. Guess they don’t want to confuse the users.

        • #3175715

          All is fair

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Low blow!!! ;-)

          in love and OS worship!

        • #3175271

          3 Button Mice + MacOS X – Guys Guys Guys and Girls too.

          by el_gazzítò ·

          In reply to Low blow!!! ;-)

          You Can use 3 + button Mice in OS X There are plenty of drivers available for ALL versions of OS X… Heres one.


        • #3175263

          That isn’t the point

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to 3 Button Mice + MacOS X – Guys Guys Guys and Girls too.

          Why don’t Macs come with a 3 button mouse? *nix is built to use it, why don’t Macs come with it?

          Why don’t they make the iBook mouse a three button? You are stuck with a one button unless you get an external mouse.

          You have to admit it is a flaw on the part of Apple.

        • #3174838

          Definantely a flaw on Apples part.

          by el_gazzítò ·

          In reply to That isn’t the point

          Yep. Ain’t that the truth…

        • #3172633


          by cardinal ·

          In reply to Low blow!!! ;-)

          Strange that you don’t use the mouse you want. I have a variety
          of mice on my Macs — they all work perfectly –though
          personally I like Mac’s own best.

        • #3186686

          Mac mice

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to strange

          When you can tell me how to install a three-button pointing device in a Powerbook, we’ll talk.

        • #3180045

          Just plug it in!

          by cardinal ·

          In reply to Mac mice

          1. Buy a USB 3-button mouse (mine’s a Philips with scroll wheel,
          2. Plug it into a USB port on the PowerBook.
          3. It just works, straight out of the box.

        • #3180025
          Avatar photo

          And when you are away from your desk

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Just plug it in!

          What do you do them?

          Col ]:)

        • #3183111

          as HAL 9000 said . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Just plug it in!

          What do you do when you’re away from your desk? What if you [b]actually want to make full use of the portability capabilities of your laptop[/b]? I don’t buy laptops as desktop replacements, I buy them as portable computers. That’s why I’ve got a Thinkpad instead of a fifteen pound Dell laptop. I’m sure as hell not going to weigh myself down with a separate USB mouse.

        • #3180022


          by noorman ·

          In reply to Low blow!!! ;-)

          they are coming …
          [Mac mice with more than 1 button]

        • #3183110


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Mice

          It’s about friggin’ time. I can’t wait to see a Powerbook with three buttons and a scrollwheel.

        • #3175467

          How funny

          by jboyer ·

          In reply to Have you USED Windows?

          I thought it was for people who need 60 ways to do the same thing wrong.I manage 80 PCs’with Windows. I’d be thrilled to death if explorer didn’t crash daily (no change from 98). If Windows is all you’ve ever used then you’re definitley missing out. It is really nice to go home to OS X and have do to nothing but use it without crashing. Perhaps it is designed for people who can’t get anything done.

        • #3175374

          I only tease MAC users

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to How funny

          Because I can.

          I do recognise that they are more stable than a windows system and much less prone to viruses and spyware.

          I also recognise that I would NEVER buy something from a vendor that I can ONLY get a replacement part from them. That is my only beef against the MAC. And people try to say it is hard to get linux support, how many stores can you carry that MAC into IF you ever have a problem? How about if you want more memory or a second hard drive? VideoCard upgrade?

          If you have a MAC and like it, cool. No sweat off my sack!

          Have a great day!

        • #3174884
          Avatar photo

          Well it gets worse over here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I only tease MAC users

          My brother in Law has a Power Book and when he went into his local Apple store they sold him Norton’s AV for Windows to run on his Power Book which of course it wouldn’t.

          But their reply was you’ve opened the box no refund! 🙂

          Things have really gone to pot when the shop where you originally brought the Apple from can not even sell you the correct product for the computer that they sold you. Of course being the only shop within 200 KMS helps you no end as well.

          Col ]:)

        • #3174876

          Macs are great, sorta.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I only tease MAC users

          MacOS X is proof that it’s easier to make unix pretty than it is to make Windows secure and stable. If for no other reason, Macs are good for that one purpose.

        • #3174840

          NEVER knocked the way they RUN

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Macs are great, sorta.

          That isn’t the issue.

          Purely a matter of proprietary hardware and limited software.

          I would NEVER buy one under those hardware constraints and the people that DO are more interested in looking trendy than anything else.

          No, buying this does NOT make you a cool yuppie.

        • #3174765


          by jaqui ·

          In reply to NEVER knocked the way they RUN

          cool yuppie an oxymoron?
          just like good morning, jumbo shrimp, progrssive conservative and honest politician are?

          a juxtaposition of terms with opposite meanings, therefore one with no meaning whatsoever.

        • #3174761

          I never said you did.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to NEVER knocked the way they RUN

          I wasn’t commenting on the way Macs run: I was talking about the value of MacOS X as a demonstration of principle. Heh. I wouldn’t actually want to RELY on a closed-source proprietary operating system that runs on single-source proprietary hardware, either.

        • #3172618


          by cardinal ·

          In reply to NEVER knocked the way they RUN

          “people that DO are more interested in looking trendy than
          anything else.”

          I have a business to run and no time to keep fixing Windoze as I
          used to have to do when I worked for a large consultancy.
          Our Macs just work and don’t waste time.

        • #3172581

          Stable? I locked up a Mac once.

          by rgtx ·

          In reply to Macs are great, sorta.

          Of course, I was using Microsoft FoxPro at the time…

        • #3172579

          Locked up a Mac?

          by txtom ·

          In reply to Stable? I locked up a Mac once.

          Your comment about FoxPro also indicates you were running the older ‘classic’ OS. The new X OS running off the BSD sub-layer is extremely stable. I’ve been running OSX since the day it was released to the public. The ONLY time I’ve locked it up was installing a trackball that installed kernal extentions which conflicted with a third party USB2 card I had. It took Kensington all of a day to fix the conflict and I was on my way. In day-to-day use, I’ve never locked up the new OS.

        • #3172570


          by txtom ·

          In reply to Macs are great, sorta.

          One purpose? Ok, they’re stable.

          Two: their color quality control has never been matched by any other platform for monitor-to-finished-product color accuracy. We call it ColorSync and no one else has anything close to it. Care to guess why it’s the publishing world’s dominant player?

          And who goes to a ‘start’ button to shut down?

        • #3172542
          Avatar photo

          Have you been talking to my mother?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Try…

          She asks the exact same question but at the same time finds it totally acceptable to turn on & off her TV & VCR with the same button on the remote. 🙂

          Yes I know it’s silly but who has ever accused M$ of even being close to sensible? 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3186789

          not me

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Try…

          I hotkeyed ALT Z to kill the xserver.

          though I would never buy overpriced proprietary machines in extremely ugly boxes.
          ( aka mac )

        • #3176678

          Have your cake and eat it too

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I only tease MAC users

          There are still enough Mac dealerships to get service at for most people’s needs.

          As for memory and HDs, you can always get third party for the Mac. Even in the early macs, Apple used a special ROM on the HD board to identify that it was an Apple drive and could be formatted by the OS tools. But third parties quickly came out with tools to format any SCSI drive in a Mac and they worked flawlessly. ATI and NVidia have both made video cards for the Mac. And RAM, when I worked in an Apple dealer in the 80s, we bought third party RAM, and I am sure most Mac dealers carry third party. If you want a second HD, get an external USB enclosure, they are pretty cheap these days.

          Back in the good old days I tried all kinds of third party tools, from processor upgrades to 486 cards that would run windows (worked well but about 2/3 speed of equivalent 486). You could get all kinds of third party video cards and monitors, keyboards, hard drives, memory. And they usually installed easier than doing the same thing in a PC. This of course was in the Mac’s that had slots, as opposed to the all in ones.


        • #3172580

          Off the shelf parts in a Mac

          by txtom ·

          In reply to I only tease MAC users

          You complain of ‘apple centric’ parts. I would go so far as saying the only parts you MUST get replacements for from Apple would be the motherboard or the case components. Other than that, there are choices in optical drives, hard drives (current standard in the towers is SATA and prior to that it was ATA) memory (using industry-standard memory components as mine has PC2700 sticks) and even video cards. The cards do have to be ‘mac centric’ but you do not have to get them from Apple.

          Apple got away from NuBus and other proprietary components like that years ago.

          Maybe you should look again.

        • #3186842


          by nmeyer ·

          In reply to Off the shelf parts in a Mac

          A couple of posts from people that use Macs instaed of talking smack on them. I made a living on PC’s and how they were so tough to network and support. I made a lot of money and know a LOT about PC’s. I came home to a Mac – and am a loyal fan. I don’t want to fix my computer at home – I just want it to work.

          Hardware and software is not an issue. There is plenty of both.

          While PC’s have some open features – the OS is a big black box – OSX less so.

          Find me a windows computer that can run:
          1. most major pre OSX apple software
          2. OSX software
          3. Windows software
          4. X-Window applications
          5. BSD command shell applications
          And we’ll talk.
          And the CPU is typicaly classified as a low end supercomuter to boot.

          Windows fans can talk smack when they have a close to equal product. Until then – patch your OS and complain about inturrupts block your viruses spyware and and go away.

          I have work to do. 🙂

        • #3186837
          Avatar photo

          That will be why the Police here are pulling out the Mac’s

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Finally

          And replacing them with PC’s right?

          Mac’s have their place but it’s the people who sell them and use them that drive me nuts as they are constantly telling everyone just how bad their systems are in the work place and wanting PC’s and I’ll bet that when they get their PC’s they’ll be thinking just how good the Mac’s where.

          But with only 5% of the market Apple is nothing more than a Bit Player no matter how technically advanced their products are. My Brother in Law bought a new Power Mac or whatever the Notebook version is now called and was sold a Windows version of Norton’s AV by the same people who sold him the NB since even the sellers can not get their act together they do not engender a lot of confidence in their products.

          I supposes that as a group of Apple dealers got together to make one massive Apple seller and promptly went broke within 3 months as well tends to make me wary of their business practices. It’s one thing to have to pay through the nose for support but it is a totally different thing to have nothing more than a boat anchor when the hardware breaks and you can not get it repaired/replaced.

          Col ]:)

        • #3186679


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Finally

          You act like you’re responding to Windows fans. There are other OSes that run on PCs. The strengths of MacOS X are pretty much the same strengths of Linux, which is what several of us here prefer to use, and usually on PCs.

          I’d definitely choose a Mac over a machine with Windows on it, all else being equal. I’d likewise choose Linux over MacOS X.

        • #3183102

          Don’t get me wrong

          by nmeyer ·

          In reply to Finally

          I use a PC every day. I make money for my employer on a PC (or at least I’m very productive). My job does not require that I use a PC or a Mac technically – except the corp standardized on a specific range of PC’s – so it’s all about internal support. Having been in in that gig – I get the point.
          I also know that Macs are about as easy to support in large network environs – and are equally cost effective. The HW typically has a longer lifespan so you get good ROI on your cap ex. But PC’s are the rule and PC savvy techs are a dime a dozen (and getting cheaper – sadly). You want something that works and is easy to administer? Mac is a good choice. You want something that a lot of I/S people know and won’t talk smack on? Get PCs – but plan on higher support costs.

          Let’s talk $$$, time and performance.
          I made a lot more money on PC’s running MS when I was a consultant. Yes – I am considering the fact that Macs have a smaller installed base. On a per machine basis the Macs cost less to my customers to support than MS boxes running either AMD or Intel. Good stand alone – didn’t scale as well. Security and admin was so-so.

          The BSD boxes that we set up just never died. Basic unix admin required. Good stand alone – never went beyond that.

          The Novell boxes were solid – but sometimes freaked out on upgrades. Security and admin was a snap. The network scaled well.

          MS Servers could be tweaked a lot so that they were stable but you had to know what you were doing and had to invest some serious time in prepping the box and cleaning up after install – still flaked out more than BSD, Novell or Mac. Patches and upgrades were a nightmare. Security was a logistical nightmare – AD didn’t help much.

        • #3182989

          Okay . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Finally

          I’m pretty sure your *BSD boxen would have been on PC hardware. My point is that you shouldn’t be saying “PCs” when what you really mean is “Windows”.

        • #3184436

          Point taken

          by nmeyer ·

          In reply to Finally


        • #3182584

          TxTom is even more Correct than he knows

          by davemori ·

          In reply to Off the shelf parts in a Mac

          There are also a number of third party hardware accessories and add-ons that either work as-is without need for additional drivers (all types of disk or optical or flash drives, I/O cards, pen tablets, keyboards/mice/joysticks/trackballs — even printers, scanners, digital cameras, monitors, etc.).

          PCI and AGP slots are there, USB and Firewire, and I have yet to find anything mainstream that does not work.

          Anything with a USB 1.1 or 2.0 interface or Firewire interface basically owes its existence to the popularity of the first iMacs in the late 1990s. USB was going nowhere on the PC. Firewire (IEEE-1394x) was an Apple invention.

          Many video cards run as-is, or have shareware drivers or drivers written on contract by the manufacturter to companies like ProSoft Engineering.

          Industry standard memory was adopted to whatever the prevailing standard was, basically back with the first Power Macintosh, in the early 1990s. Even going down to the power supplies in the case.

          On-the-motherboard, built in graphics support generally comes from ATi or nVidia – same chipsets in use by many PCs, and it has been this way since the late 1990s.

          Monitors were supported through adapters and dongles until about the mid to late 1990s when the 604 based PowerMacs and first G3s came out.

          Apple engineers have been sitting on nearly every industry standard committee since the 1980s.

          If you examine the logic board of even a 1996-1998 Mac, you will see something like 85% component level commonality between whatever was on the logic board of whatever was commonly used on PC logic boards at the time.

          The other 15% was ASICs, which basically had to be different due to the use of IBM and Motorola PowerPC processors — the frontside bus speed, of which, also dictates the speed of the memory used.

          The Mac Mini is a perfect example of being able to use off the shelf USB keyboards, mice, monitors, etc.

          What comes out of the Mac is also pretty standard. I don’t know of anyone who still does anything with AppleTalk. That was gone in the late 1990s. All of the Mac connectivity is via IP.

      • #3172567

        Sounds like linux

        by fshiflett ·

        In reply to Opinion of a Macintosh user

        fifty-dozen command-line entries and still not installed!

        • #3186677

          not in my experience

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Sounds like linux

          It’s funny, I don’t have that problem with Linux. Perhaps you’re using a kernel 1.0 version of Linux, circa 1993.

      • #3180024

        VERY …

        by noorman ·

        In reply to Opinion of a Macintosh user

        TRUE remark;

        An ‘ordinary’ user can’t make head or tails of it without a massive book and lots of time at hand !

      • #3194418

        Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

        by banyangod ·

        In reply to Opinion of a Macintosh user

        and Linux isn’t,

        Right now Linux is not easy to use for the “novice user” which means that in a business enviroment, you mostly need Windows for your employees.

        • #3195722
          Avatar photo

          Right now Windows is not…………….

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          and Windows isn’t,

          Right now Windows is not easy to use for the “novice user” which means that in a business environment, you mostly need Training for your employees. Which costs money so we leave them on Windows and hope that they muddle their way through.

          Col ]:)

    • #3175694

      From my experience

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Windows 3.1 was the most stable version ever. It just kept going for years and years without needing a reformat and reinstall.

      I learnt to live with 95 and it ran happily including the internet with a 486 DX 100 CPU and 48 MB RAM.

      One of the fastest computers I have ever owned ran Windows 95 on a 486 DX 66 with just 8 MB RAM. Of course I could not run the internet on that machine.

      But I was forced to move “up” (questionable) to 98 because:
      a) Anti-virus companies stopped supporting 95;
      b) Peripherals such as printers and scanners required USB connection.

      I have found 98 (or 98 SE) worse than 95. It is no more stable and is a real memory hog. It?s stupid scrolling Programs Menu is an utter pain. This was rectified on ME and upwards.

      Contrary to every opinion I have heard at this website, the most stable and trouble-free version I have used is ME which has run happily for four years without requiring any attention. No blue screens either.

      I am currently in the process of acquainting myself with XP because already certain software requires a minimum of Windows 2000.

      As for Macs, I have owned and used just about every model from a Mac Plus to a G3 running OS 10.2

      Prior to OS X, I have found Macs (from OS 8 onwards) crash more often than Windows, and throw up more error messages, the favourite one being: “Such and such could not be done because of an unexpected error.” And there was no Ctrl + Alt + Del to reboot them, nor any power switch on the computer. It was a case of turn it off at the power point and start all over again. This annoying idiosyncrasy has been rectified in OS X which allows one to Force Quit a program that has fozen.

      I also am aware of the limitations of a single-button mouse.

      So far I have not found any problems with OS X.

      • #3175645


        by hurd ·

        In reply to From my experience

        a subjective answer to an subjective question with a coolheaded approach who has not given in to a rant…

        • #3175633

          Hey hey hey

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Finally

          My “Pros and Cons” post was VERY coolheaded and non-ranting.

          And it even touched on every topic the poster asked about from a business standpoint.

          We await your review on the pros and cons.

          (Yes, I know I was poking the MAC users with sticks too, but it was all in good fun and not a part of the serious post)

      • #3175401

        Force Quit

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to From my experience

        That “Force Quit” thing isn’t any advance built in by the people creating the MacOS line of operating systems. It’s just a UI face on an old unix utility, like the following:

        killall [programname]

        Moving to a unix kernel was the smartest thing the MacOS design wankers ever did.

        • #3175327

          Plus the OS X app bar is perty

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Force Quit


        • #3174875


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Plus the OS X app bar is perty

          It’s basically the Gnome window manager laid over the GNUstep framework and libraries. Of course it’s perty. Heh.

      • #3175347

        Old Windows

        by aceskaraoke ·

        In reply to From my experience

        I do agree with you about old 3.1 and 3.11. My first PC was a 386 running 3.11 and it was plenty stable. Back then there was a closer relationship between Windows and the DOS command line. Really Win 3.11 was like a DOS shell than it’s successors. Most of my distaste for MS cropped up trying to adjust to 95, which always crashed and locked on me. Windows 98 SE was a welcome change and I still run 98 on an old AMD K62 333 Mhz with 256 MB of RAM with few problems. XP gave me some security issues, but rare locking and no crashing. I’m running XP on an AMD Athlon 2600+ with 384 MB RAM and have been pretty happy with performance. I just started using 2000 at school last year and really liked it’s more basic, businesslike look plus greater stability and reduced resource hogging. I don’t necessarily like MS business practices, but I’ve found their recent offerings quite manageable and productive (with a bit of tweaking). I wish I had kept my old 3.11 platform running…I’ve lost much of my DOS command line skill due to the newer Windows versions pampering.

        • #3174882
          Avatar photo

          MS DOS didn’t even have a decent Command Line either

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Old Windows

          It just lacked the switches that could and should have been added. DR DOS was always much better as you could copy different size floppies with the XCOPY command which was really useful when the 720K where no longer available and we had to move everything to the 1.44 MEG Floppies.

          There where so many different switches available in DR DOS that it made MS DOS look like the rubbish that it was. Besides making it far easier to setup an Internet connection everything from MS since has not been a improvement just something bigger to hog more of the resources that are available on the newer computers.

          While you still have a command line of sorts in XP it is very limited and there is very little documentation about its uses.

          Col ]:)

      • #3172616

        Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

        by jeff.mcfee ·

        In reply to From my experience

        Good post except for the ME bit. Microsoft took 98 and removed stability and proper domain control! I am finding myself on a large network reinstalling ME atleast once a year – something I rarely do on any other platform.

        I have 2 vendors who will support their products on 95/98/2k and XP but refuse to support ME because they have so many problems.

        We are migrating all PC’s to XP-PRO (just intime for Longhorn 😉 ) starting with ME before Windows 95.

        • #3172594

          My experience with ME.

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          I am merely stating a fact. I have had ME running for four years on an AMD 550 with 64 MB RAM and it has NEVER given me any grief.

          I have heard that it is a disaster when used in a network, but my experience is my experience. It is the most reliable and fastest computer that I currently own.

          It runs faster than 98 SE on a Pentium 400 with 256 MB RAM. It runs faster than 98 SE on a Celeron 633 with 128 MB RAM.

          I’m sorry, but whatever your own experience with ME may have been, you simply cannot refute my personal experience on a single machine.

      • #3186851

        Windows in Business

        by rwitschger ·

        In reply to From my experience

        I am a systems administrator of many years now. I happen to like MS Windows for a number of reasons. Keep in mind I will list these from a business perspective instead of a home based user.

        First, it’s easy. User like it since it’s hat they know. With so many users running a windows box at home, they have become somewhat comforatable with it.

        It’s easy to find help. The new genereation of out of college IT Specialists don’t really know Linux or Unix very well. You can get someone to support Windows alot more readily and cheap.

        While Freeware is great, support is better. As with all that is Microsoft, you have to pay to call them, but when you do, you get an english speaking and knowledgeable person to help you through your problem. Also, you can take the free approached and get answers to really complicated problems quickly by googling Microsoft’s site.

        Application support. Once you *have* the newest version of Windows, any reasonable windows application will run. Most of those vendor specific Apps that all of us Systems admins *love* will run on Windows 95, so you can feel fairly confident that they will run in Windows XP. I am yet to find a single vendor that will give you a Linux application.

        I want to make a point about Active Directory (AD). I know that many do not support AD, but I am a firm believer. Between group policy and third party application integration, AD is simply the most beautiful thing that Linux lacks. Sure there is Samba, wich does a pitiful AD simulation at best, and there is LDAP, which works well when you get it working, but AD beats them both.

        As a counterpoint to many of the arguments against Windows that I saw above. Windows is not free, no; however, when you are a business, neither is Linux. Redhat AS3 costs money, we have to pay for each and every server to simply auto update itself. And why is it auto updating? Security holes and the like. Now, this is alot like Windows yes, but I am paying to license Windows, not to patch it. Moreover, all of those really great free Linux based software packs like Apache and Spamassassin have FREE WINDOWS counterparts. People are porting these programs over to Windows quite consistantly now. So, minus the audits, you don’t gain that much with a Linux system.

        Windows XP is pretty good for a business once you have it setup. It can be givien a theme based on your company, it’s stable and esy to support. Once you have a Windows computer on a Windows Domain, you can easily support that system.

        Windows 2003 Server is great.

        And security holes? That’s the best argument against windows? If you are afraid of security holes at the OS level, you are doing something wrong. The perimeter of your network is where security comes from, not the OS!!

        I won’t be checking back here, so persoanl attacks because I tend to support a Windows Domain will get you no where.

        Spelling and grammar are not checked, sorry.

        • #3186664


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Windows in Business

          You make some good points, but I think you make some unsupportable points based on ignorance as well. not your fault. I’ll see if I can help enlighten you.

          “[i]While Freeware is great, support is better. As with all that is Microsoft, you have to pay to call them, but when you do, you get an english speaking and knowledgeable person to help you through your problem. Also, you can take the free approached and get answers to really complicated problems quickly by googling Microsoft’s site.[/i]”

          You’re probably not aware of this, but the Linux community has actually won awards for being the “best” technical support available. Much of this is because of the quality and quantity of free, helpful support you can get by participating in LUG mailing lists, which are just awesome. Every new Linux user should join two.

          “[i]Application support. Once you *have* the newest version of Windows, any reasonable windows application will run.[/i]”

          Linux is even more broadly software compatible. New versions of Windows do actually break older software, and more often than new Linux versions will break older versions of software, to say nothing of how friggin’ easy it is to upgrade software to newer versions in Linux. Even better, though, is the fact that you don’t necessarily have to upgrade your Linux version to use newer software, but it’s almost impossible to get a brand-new application to run on a Windows version that is two revisions old. Best of all, upgrading your Linux version is about as easy as can be, and in Debian (for instance) can be accomplished with nothing more complicated than typing “aptitude install [kernel version]”. That’s it.

          “[i]I am paying to license Windows, not to patch it.[/i]”

          Then, of course, you have to pay separately to upgrade your Windows version every time you decide you want to stay with the times. Besides, RHEL isn’t the only distribution available, and you can get Linux perfectly free for business use if you want it. RHEL isn’t the only commercially viable Linux version available. I’d even say it’s not the best, generally speaking.

          “[i]all of those really great free Linux based software packs like Apache and Spamassassin have FREE WINDOWS counterparts[/i]”

          Your use of the word “all” in that sentence is a pretty significant bit of exaggeration.

        • #3072749

          Spelling and grammar are not checked, sorry.

          by another canadian ·

          In reply to Windows in Business

          Don’t worry once someone can’t find better to say they will attack you on that point. I as French Canadian got use to that.

          If what I am saying make sens and they don’t like it wheter I am for or against Windows they will attack me on my spelling. So who care the one that love debate do not give you the spelling crap the one that are just “Emerite Professor” will alwalys look at your creditential I guess it is the new “Elite” class of today world.

          For myself if I could get rid of MS I would but having to choose between building my “box” and buying a Mac I choose to built one. I would probably buy the Mac OS if I could only buy the OS and not their “candy” <> wrapping.

          Maybe in a kioske it could make sens to buy a computer that have the monitor integrated or a PC Keyboard by itself but for me it is open the case and open hardware so for me it is MS because I can’t find all the correct software to support my AIW 9800 and my Creative Audigy2 Platinium and other stuff like that, if it existed and supported by the hardware vendor I would go Linux but because only Microsoft offer that now I guess for now it is XP for me as it was before for 98SE and Me after that.

          Have a great day.

    • #3175556

      I thought this was a pros and cons to windows not macs

      by halibut ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      I love the windows OS. It keeps me and many others employed and is fun to troubleshoot when you try and figure out why the heck is this machine giving me this error or a BSOD with little to no tools (it is like having only a hammer and screwdriver to fix that 747.)
      Linux/UNIX/xBSD are stable and wonderful to work on but it does not amount for the majority of desktop OS’s in the IT field, unfortunately, and the windows Server OS has a good percentage of the market. If the xNIX OS were more common it would spell a lot less system and network administrative jobs out there. (which may or may not be a bad thing)

      (I know I will flamed for these comments but…)
      All jeering aside, 2000 and XP have definately come a long way from the old DOS days and they have made basic administration easy for the average user. Installation and setup of applications is fairly straight forward and stability is improved over the older versions (NT/9x/ME) of the OS. Active Directory and Windows Shell is beginning to mature to the point of being useful and MS is finally understanding that the CLI is a very useful tool (increased command Line tools in XP and 2003). Group policies and other security presets are improving, but in the same breath is getting too granular and complicated for the average user. MS never followed the KISS principal. 🙂

      I personally like the XP os but hope that my favorite games come out for Linux (Battlefield 2) and I would completely move to the linux OS.

      • #3175543

        on this note:

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to I thought this was a pros and cons to windows not macs

        “All jeering aside, 2000 and XP have definately come a long way from the old DOS days and they have made basic administration easy for the average user.”

        which, of course is why there are so many problems.
        average user should not have any admin abilities, as that is what causes the network to crash.

        • #3175469

          An d how many apps don’t run if not ADMIN

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to on this note:

          When entering the wonderful world of windows we right away hear about this thing called a “user” account. This will keep the user AND the computer safe! Of course the computer is safe, because the user can barely change the color let alone run some applications.

          So after hearing the user complain that this or that won’t run, we move them up to “power user”. Ohhhhh! This gets their blood pumping. But there is always the setting or application that still won’t run.

          So to shut them up once and for all, there is the Administrator account. Not Admin, but Administrator. Funny how an OS that isn’t smart enough to recognise upper and lower case most of the time makes you spell the whole thing out.

          At last. They can run and do anything they want! I know, lets save ourselves a lot of time and just make them Administrator by default! Just think of all the calls that can be avoided!

          Oh yeah, better give them this “recovery” disk. They will need it.

        • #3175413

          It adds mystery and thrill to your life!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to An d how many apps don’t run if not ADMIN

          Making all your users admins makes your job that much more exciting. What will they do today? Will they kill the network? Will they make their computer to a DC? Will they get the latest virus and infect the entire network in a matter of seconds?

          What do you want to do today?

          Why hasn’t MS figured out USER SPACE and USER ACCOUNTS??? Why do some apps have to run as admin? Why can’t I change the wallpaper as a user?

          All these questions and more are answered in my new book: “How to create a borked OS is 3 easy steps”

        • #3175399

          admin apps

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to It adds mystery and thrill to your life!

          Actually, the problem isn’t so much with the fact that apps won’t run except as Administrator. The problem is more that [b]only Administrators can use them![/b] There goes all user-level control. Thus, your fun with a workstation suddenly becoming a local DC.

          Okay, so I fibbed. The fact that many apps that shouldn’t have to won’t run without app-specific admin privileges is a huge problem. That’s the sort of thing that allows a virus to propagate across a system and compromise the entire operating system without anyone noticing in time to do anything about it.

        • #3175373


          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to admin apps

          Diablo II HAS to run as Administrator.

          Can you think of just about anything funnier?

        • #3174874

          I knew it!

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to CAN’T EVEN PLAY GAMES

          I was right all along! The Windows Administrator account is a tool of the Devil! You’ve just indicated proof of that!

        • #3174835

          Hahahahahahaha ROFLMAO

          by el_gazzítò ·

          In reply to It adds mystery and thrill to your life!


        • #3174881
          Avatar photo

          But it keeps the money rolling in doesn’t it?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to on this note:


        • #3179051

          Then money train is slowing down

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to But it keeps the money rolling in doesn’t it?

          Not by much, but it is slowing. MS tried for the lock in, but they are finding more and more are jumping ship because of their antics.

        • #3179041
          Avatar photo

          Yes I know at IBM yesterday

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Then money train is slowing down

          They where telling us that in their server range it was 60% Linux and 40% M$ Windows and the Linux market was growing for them anyway. 🙂

          Now they have a range that will only run Linux they use both RedHat & SUSE and the support that they offer is really impressive leaves M$ for dead.

          But their new Blades where the most impressive thing that I’ve seen in a very long time as what there selling feature is not to look at the front with all the pretty lights and so on but look at the back it is so nice and not the normal tangle of wires that generally accompany these things it’s almost neat though not quite there yet but it certainly is a lot better I could almost count the wires from 10 feet away and that unit only had 500 CPU’s. 😉

          The next thing that was interesting is their new range of LT’s which have some really impressive features like parking the heads of the HDD when things are not smooth enough, although I’m not so sure about the Data Encryption though.

          Col ]:)

        • #3179005

          That is beyond cool

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Yes I know at IBM yesterday

          So, how do I get a job at IBM to play with all the cool toys? 🙂

          I do love the blades IBM has…they are rock solid and they are VERY functional (unlike some other vendors…)

          ‘Course I’d like to see *nix unify more with NAS/SANS stuff, but I guess that is coming (or is it already here? Boy, when you teach you kinda lose track of the some parts of the industry)

        • #3178832
          Avatar photo

          I’m almost sorry that I quit IBM

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That is beyond cool

          With the new play toys that they have now I could quite easily play all day without a problem. The majority of the 3U Blades run Linux because they are mainly used in places when a lot of computing power is required and lets just face it MS doesn’t have anything scalable enough to support a 500 CPU setup and that was a small one. The whole thing was only a little bigger than the Quad HP that MS used at the 2003 Launch but looked much nicer from the front and only got better when you saw the back.

          Now if I could con IBM to allow me one to play with for a few years 🙂 but really I don’t think so 🙁 the SCSI Hot Swappable drives along the bottom of this case looked very nice as well although I shudder to think about the cost it only had about 20 drives in it but just those alone would keep me poor. 😉 Without the rest of the box. Apparently they claim that they can roll out a 1000 CPU unit within a few hours when required and work in blocks of 500 CPU Blades which can be increased to 1K of CPU’s in the same box buy just adding a bit more hardware and it doesn’t require any more leads the additional components just plug into the existing framework and work through the already fitted wires.

          She who must be Obeyed hit the roof when I brought home several 1U blades but I shudder to think what would happen if I had one of those things delivered here. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3177859

          You went over the bosses head!!!???

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to That is beyond cool

          Wow, my boss would not only “fire” me, but would have my brain (among other body parts) for lunch! She would not be a happy camper if I brought home a blade or two….

          ‘Course, I don’t think I could stop myself…The question is, what purchase could I get away with? A 2U blade or a semi-restored 1977 MG Miget?

        • #3176677
          Avatar photo

          Well besides computers

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That is beyond cool

          I have a passion for Classic Mercedes so whenever I spend way too much I just say it is a present for her. Then she can not complain only say I shouldn’t have done that. 😀

          But best of all she can not complain when I throw buckets of parts at it either as I’m making it better and safer for her to drive. Currently she owns 3 of the 7 classic Mercedes here. 🙂

          Just like my passion for Snap On tools she used to bitterly complain about just how expensive they where and just how much money I actually spent on the things that I brought until two things happened the first she came with me into a Snap On van and I brought her a pair of folding scissors and the second and far more important thing I used a spanner that she had bought me and it broke undoing a tie rod nut so I fell back and caught my neck on an open draw and was paralyzed for 2 weeks from the neck down. Luckily I knew it was only temporary but it could have been much worse and ever since that incident I’ve never heard a word said about the cost of the Snap On tools that I buy and she raves about just how good that they are to anyone who even comes close to my tool trolley as it is by now far to heavy to even consider lifting. 😀

          Of course the blades that I brought home where ones that I pulled out and had replaced with new units but they where just so good that I couldn’t bear to part with them even though they are big, bulky, heavy, attract dust like a magnet and so on I got lucky there as I didn’t pay for them so she couldn’t really complain toooooooooooo much she only goes on about the space that they take up. so I dumped the 1U cabinets and just stuck with the Blades all around the place I’m currently using one as a Gateway to the Internet a waste I know but she can not complain that I’m not using them. 😉

          Col ]:)

        • #3172592

          Ms seem to have gotten the plot wrong!

          by morphen ·

          In reply to on this note:

          MS Dos worked and Win 3.1x seemed to make life easer at least you could go back to dos to repair some of the problems. Since MS moved to 95 and upwards they have gone backwards not forwards. You would think with Unix/Linux out there that MS could at least take a page of there book and make there Os setup more configurable without second guessing what it is we want to do.

          95 worked but it had to many compatablity issues.
          98 one of the better Os’s to come out of MS.
          2000 probably the most stable pity it’s fading away.
          XP (Xtra Problems) the name says it all.

          Xp has caused more problems than it has fix

        • #3186779

          not really…

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Ms seem to have gotten the plot wrong!

          after 3.1.1, m$ have not released anything close to resembling an os, they have released viruses.
          windoze itself is a virus.

          and no version if the user interface is meant for professional use, all versions show the foundation purpose… to play video games.

        • #3180095

          Absolutely …

          by morphen ·

          In reply to not really…

          While windows is used in the professional world it shouldn’t be. I agree its a games platform 1st and foremost.

          What’s the difference between windows and a virus?

          You can get rid of a virus.

    • #3175356

      Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

      by amitbhatiain2002 ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      This is Amit from Hewlett Packard. Avoid using the SP2 on the computer if you are using Windows XP on the computer.

      • #3175342

        Any particular reason?

        by aceskaraoke ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        …or is this just a heartfelt plea?

      • #3175313

        You need to talk to your employer

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        My HP computer came with XP SP2 installed !
        Saying that I’ve had no problems I can put down to SP2.
        Well once I put a firewall and spyware killer that was n’t configured by Bill’s business partners.

      • #3175269

        is hp going

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        to pay for damages because if no sp2 no security updates?

        don’t make a recommendation that stops people from trying to keep it secure unless you got the cash to pay for the data loss / damages ready to hand.

        if hp hardware won’t work right, it’s hp’s problem to fix thier priprietary bs bios to get it working right, not hp’s job to tell people to let every security exploit out there destroy thier systems

        • #3174873


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to is hp going

          The only way to keep a Windows system reasonably secure while still allowing Internet access is to use a non-Windows firewall and proxy server to isolate it from direct contact with the Internet, and to only use third-party software for Internet-related activities.

        • #3174869
          Avatar photo

          Well you’ll love this then

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to bah

          After an Upgrade to their systems from my local ISP I could no longer collect any E-Mail from any source other than their direct mail box so for a temp remedy I had to redirect all of my mail boxes to that one and leave the Mail Client open all the time or it would just fill up within a few hours and then I would start getting phone calls complaining that I could not be reached.

          Well since I’m currently working on a XP workstation just to try to remember how the silly thing actually works I thought easy I tried the obvious things and then tried ringing the ISP for a work around. Well mistake number 1 was deciding to wait for an operator as they had already told me with a recorded message that they where experiencing higher than normal calls so there would be a long delay. 😀

          Anyway 3 hours latter I was disconnected so I tried again and this time I couldn’t even get through. SO off and on when I had the time to waste over the next 3 weeks I rang them spasmodically and eventually I got through to someone in India who insisted that I had to go to the computer that the modem was connected to to fix the problem. Her first question after my protests had died down was “What version of Windows are you using?” My reply was Windows/ I’m using Debian Woody on the gateway I would never consider using Windows so close to a hostile environment. She then asked just what Debian Woody was, by this time I was nearly falling off my chair laughing and I just said it’s not Windows it’s Linux and she insisted that I couldn’t connect to their network with Linux so I must be mistaken. 🙂

          Anyway after that waste of time I eventually removed every account from Outlook Express and set them all up again and eventually after much mucking around I got it working again.

          Outsourcing isn’t such a bad thing provided you can get past the first tier of help which in this case was impossible. Needless to say when this contract expires in a few months I will not be rejoining with that ISP I’ll be using another one which I wanted in the first place but because the Telco here owns the lines I had to have it setup through them and once the modifications had been made I can change carriers. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3174834

          And here I thought I was the only one….

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Well you’ll love this then

          I have been having NOTHING but grief from my DSL provider for the last year. The first two was GREAT! Then the outsourcing came.

          First, I went to get their “special rate” at the time to renew my contract. “we are sorry, you have to HAVE US for your long distance carrier to get this”. I asked to talk to a manager and asked them to show me where on the website advertising this it stated that term? She couldn’t so she SAID she would put it through for the special.

          When I got my bill, I was NOT getting the special rate. I called on this and they said the computer kicked me out automatically because I didn’t qualify for that rate because of the long distance. The next manager ended up crediting my account up front for the amount I was going to be overcharged during the year. This was fair.

          My next bone of contention is I only get about 312k download on a good day. I live IN THE MIDDLE of a moderately big town so it isn’t like I am out in the styx or something! And I CAN NOT upgrade to a faster speed. But take heart! The are going to upgrade the network in four months! (heard that before). If it isn’t upgraded in the eight months when my contract expires I am out of there!

          Two weeks ago the DSL modem DIED. The only light that would come on was the power. Nothing for the lan or the wan, not even a red light.

          If took 45 minutes to convices this STUPID woman from India that it WASN’T EVEY COMPUTER I HAVE ON MY LAN that had died, but THEIR MODEM. And a quick test from their end would have SHOWN that it wasn’t respondign. GRRRRR. Wish I could have reached through the phone and ripped her lungs out!

          At the end of that 45 minutes, she set an appointment for the local techs to CALL me to determine what to do. So the NEXT DAY I talk to this guy for five minutes after explaining my qualifications, and then what I had done to troubleshoot the problem before AND after the wasted time on level one support. four LONG days later a new modem showed up in the mail.

        • #3174804
          Avatar photo

          Well what makes it worse for me is

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And here I thought I was the only one….

          That I can see the end of the broadband cables from my front door all 300 meters away right where the power goes underground to this area. There has only been a law in place here for at least 20 years that all new developments have to have underground power, telephone and whatever. So for 5 long years I’ve been hearing that within the next 12 months the cable will be rolled out. 🙁 Well it has not happened yet anyway and that was now 3 years ago so after 8 years the cable still has not been run.

          Then at the Federal Election Last year I had had enough and got onto the Communications Minister and threatened to make it an issue as the Telecoms Services have been vastly improved {So they claim anyway} and while I’m within the 4.5 KM radius from the exchange and within 1 KM from the biggest shopping center on the southern side of Brisbane on a main road in a densely populated area no less the Telco insisted that I was A on Acreage or B in a remote area of Brisbane and so I could not have a full phone line only a split line and no ADSL. When they came at that I blew a fuse after the constant lies that they had been telling me and the insistence that everything was so perfect.

          The only draw back was that the Government Owned Telco had to provide the service as they had to upgrade the exchange for the ADSL line here then they had the audacity to offer me a 200 MEG download limit which wouldn’t even cover my incoming E-Mail. They could just not believe that I wanted an unlimited one and tried very hard to talk me out of this. They actually didn’t want my money which was really confusing. 😀

          But that wouldn’t be quite so bad if it wasn’t for all the upgrades which keep cutting out the service and changing the parameters which you have to go through. OH the best one is that you get an E-Mail telling you that the system might be down for upgrades after the upgrade now that is really helpful. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3174833

          Problem is

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to bah

          as soon as you boot that system up, it isn’t secure anymore…..

        • #3174832

          Windows + Security tools

          by el_gazzítò ·

          In reply to bah

          I think the only security toolset for Windows is an uninstall tool! Definately not the Windoze firewall. Pah! :- )

      • #3174803

        Then what DO you want us to use SP2 on?

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        Amit from HP. What a freaken troll.

        • #3174802
          Avatar photo

          Well I suppose

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Then what DO you want us to use SP2 on?

          If you got the CD from M$ it makes a very good drink coaster. Or like a friend she makes clocks out of old CD’s/DVD’s. 😀

          Col ]:)

      • #3174793

        2 comments on that

        by itgirli ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        1. What a stupid thing to say.
        2. Don’t use Windows at all, use Linux.

        • #3174762
          Avatar photo

          Strange you should say that

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to 2 comments on that

          It’s exactly what was said today at IBM’s Forum 05 meeting as well as quite a lot of other cute stuff.

          After I’ve had a bit of time to absorb that lot I’ll post a new discussion on it and the most obvious things that they talked about.

          Col ]:)

        • #3179049

          ‘Course IBM has a vested interest in getting people to switch to Linux

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Strange you should say that


        • #3179040
          Avatar photo

          But when they claim that they can

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to ‘Course IBM has a vested interest in getting people to switch to Linux

          Move about 80% of the desktop market to Linux it does make for some interesting ideas. 🙂

          Col ]:)

      • #3177845

        BIOS update

        by jfowler ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        Updating the BIOS is a REQUIREMENT before applying SP2 to an HP XP machine. After that is done they run just fine. (For a factory built box that is :>)

      • #3172621

        Why not SP2?

        by kedia990 ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        Amit from Hp said never to use SP2. Please explain.

      • #3180097

        How does one get SP2 to work??

        by bwallan ·

        In reply to Please never use SP2 in Windows XP

        We’re running HP Pavilion 753 desktops. We’re also currently on our third attempt to install SP2. At present we have no communications, explorer will not run, Internet Explorer bombs on about half its starts. And this attempt has had fewer problems than the previous two attempts!

        As far as I’m concerned SP2 has caused far more problems, damage and lost $$$ than we would have ever had with viruses, spyware, etc.

        If this is the best Microsoft can offer in the way of system upgrades, please go find someone else to test them!

        • #3182547

          Well I bought

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to How does one get SP2 to work??

          my HP Pavillion with XP(Home) SP2 installed, and apart from a couple of bad WUS updates, it’s been running without a hitch for 4 months. There’s a lot I’m not mad keen on and basically I only it use for entertainment, but it’s been good value for money.

        • #3195644

          There can be problems with HP machines

          by afhavemann9 ·

          In reply to How does one get SP2 to work??

          We bought several HP?s for evaluation and I have to agree that they can be difficult to work with. I’m unsure exactly why because that very difficulty earned them a “don’t buy” score in our tests. They run Red Hat fine though — go figure.

          We finally got them to load XP-SP2 by pushing a fully configured, non-machine specific (machine dependencies removed) image (XP-SP2 with SYSPREP) onto them and allowing the discovery process to cleanup the hardware after the fact. This worked OK but they still seem to have more problems than any of our Dell boxes. Part of the problem seems to lie with the bios. On each of the machines we had to upgrade the bios before discovery would complete without crashing out.

          I don’t know all the details of what’s needed to produce an HP that’s as stable as on the Dell machines, but there is a distinct difference, and since the OS is identical, it’s got to be the hardware environment.

          I suggest you try SYSPREP – it can be a bit hard to master but works well with just about any system and the big advantage is being able to drop a fully configured (to the corporate desktop) image on any platform and have the install complete without having to maintain separate images for every different piece of hardware in the house. There are other methods (Ghost,etc.) but SYSPREP is there, and it works.

    • #3174868

      Windows U Got to Love it

      by crazeycelt ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Well I have been using Windows Since Version 1, I even rember when Microsoft Gave you free upgrades to its OS. The use of the mouse and Windows version of GUI helpped individuals responsable to instruct computers a boon. The concept of a DOS promp at times was more than many could grasp. While point and click bought computing to folks that didnt know they needed computers. When in the US Army I didnt have much of a choice , once it was known you liked computers or knew something about them, IT and computer resorch mangment became your job , no matter what you where trained in. For all its faults Windows OS openned up the world of computting to the masses. Also made a hard comcept (DOS) easy to introduce to a novice.
      I do rember when you had to use a batch file to Lprint a text document through a RS232 port with formating commands in order to produce a deocuent. But also, Windows hid computer functios in many layers to confuse a ortical when something went wrong.

    • #3174727

      On-topic response

      by wordworker ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Gee guys could we have gotten any more OFF topic with some of these responses???

      Here’s my two cents FWIW:
      I started out with the very first DOS machines, IBM brand, two-floppy drive dinosaurs. I have seen and used them all since then. Windows 95 was fairly fast but did crash more often than I thought it should have. W98 was a decent improvement over 95. I wouldn’t touch ME with a 10-foot pole when it came out and still won’t. I use and support Windows 2000 as the desktop and network OS in a shop with over 30,000 WAN users and over 1,000 Wintel servers and it runs like a charm. Prior to migration to W2K server we ran 98 and W2K desktops with NT4 server. NT4 was pretty stable but W2K is much, much better. We only reboot servers when we apply patches – they almost never BSOD on us. (Admittedly we patch more often than we’d prefer in an ideal world, but MS is slowly but surely getting there.) Apparently some of the whiners in this thread have never heard about GPO or they wouldn’t have to worry about end users performing “admin” on their boxes. I run XP on my home machines, haven’t applied any SPs and haven’t had any performance problems whatsoever. I ceased using Internet Explorer nine months ago and moved to FireFox exclusively and will never go back to IE.

      While I accept and understand the ‘n*x world’s share of the server market, until there’s a human-friendly Linux desktop, I won’t bother putting an open source box in my home lab. (Gee talk about being designed by geeks for geeks.) No need to, as all my consulting clients use Wintel.

      You might as well try to convince the business world to stop driving gasoline-driving cars as to convince them to give up Wintel machines. Maybe, just maybe, the open source world will someday produce a desktop that’s as powerful and stable as an Apache server AND easy to use. But until then, Wintel is where the money is.

      Again, just my two cents. Edited for spelling.

      • #3174682

        almost a good point

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to On-topic response

        That last paragraph about a desktop that’s as stable and powerful as an Apache server would be a good point, except that you’re using that as justification for using Windows. Until there’s a Windows desktop as stable and powerful as a Linux desktop, there’s no reason to use Windows instead of Linux if your justification is that the Linux desktop isn’t as stable and powerful as an Apache server. The X Window System has its issues, but they are less egregious than those of Windows Explorer by a long shot.

        Now, I must reluctantly leave this stable and powerful Linux workstation to go back to rebuilding the operating environment on a cantankerous Windows XP box that managed to crash and wipe out everything on a business client’s workstation. Yes, really.

        • #3174613

          Stable powerful worthless if you can’t…

          by wordworker ·

          In reply to almost a good point

          …use it. I can sit down and use a Windows desktop machine, any desktop machine. I have yet to see a desktop machine running linux that you could sit down and start using. I just with you and JD could explain why all of your Wintel boxes keep crashing when all of mine keep running and running and running. Methinks the frailty of the Wintel desktop has been grotesquely overestimated.

        • #3179003

          Not really

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Stable powerful worthless if you can’t…

          I had a few “novice” users that could bring a Windows box to it knees in a matter of seconds. I would ask, “what did you do?” Their reply, “I don’t know, I just clicked something.”

          Windows boxes have some stability issues and they tend to let users do things they shouldn’t do. While a linux box will stop a users from shoot themselves (and the system) in the foot.

        • #3177907

          problems with your post

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Stable powerful worthless if you can’t…

          1. I can use Linux systems just fine. Once you learn Windows, you can figure out other Windows systems. By the same token, once you learn unix, you can figure out other unix systems (particularly if you stay within the Linux range so the utilities tend to be the same across systems and distributions). Even with different window managers, it’s not difficult to move from one to another once you get the basic hang of it. You’re trying to compare ease of Linux use to ease of Windows use with habitual Windows users as your guinea pigs. That’s like comparing ease of submarine use with ease of airplane use with a bunch of Cessna pilots as your guinea pigs. If you were using submarine crew members instead, I’m sure you’d find your results reversed.

          2. When did I say my Windows boxes were crashing? My own personal Windows machines don’t tend to crash. Of course, I have to be extremely careful with what I do on Windows machines. I had to spend a long time learning Windows to get to the point where I can maintain a smooth-running system that never crashes, only needs to be restarted once every couple weeks to refresh RAM, never picks up malware, and so on. I ran a Win2k system for three years without needing a reinstall, and it would still probably be running just fine if I didn’t decide to change OSes on it. My clients, on the other hand, are not the sort of expert I am, and their Windows machines blow up on a regular basis. Likewise, with my Linux boxen, I don’t have to be careful. I’ve maintained system stability while learning Linux, and subsequently went on to abuse my operating environment extensively without needing even to restart these computers. I install and remove software willy-nilly on a regular basis without suffering stability problems. One simply does not do this with Windows without expecting regular crashes.

          Methinks you overestimate how well the Windows system can stack up to the Linux system because you’re comparing apples to oranges.

        • #3176730

          Apples, Oranges, and Bears oh my!

          by wordworker ·

          In reply to problems with your post

          All I’m saying, like I said in response to JD, is this started out as a question about Win versions. People started going off on *n*x tangents and bashing Wintel performance without backing any of it up with facts. I think that zealotry has been played out. If and when I ever have to learn Linux or Unix or AIX or any other flavor in order to earn a living, I’ll learn it. Until then, I don’t bash it, I applaud people who do learn it and use it, but don’t try to tell me that because I live and work and make a living in the Wintel world that there’s something wrong with that. There isn’t.

        • #3178583

          Who said there’s something wrong with that?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Apples, Oranges, and Bears oh my!

          “Not I,” said the fly.

          Make your money how you like. Use the OS with which you’re comfortable. Be my guest. There’s nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. The comparative technical merits of Windows and Linux are immaterial to personal preference, often enough. I just tend to prefer technical merit. Heh.

        • #3186702

          But it’s not only technical merits

          by chilango02 ·

          In reply to Who said there’s something wrong with that?

          You’re quite right when you state that technincal merits are inmmaterial to personal preference.

          And, it sounds okay to prefer technical merit.

          But since both Windows and Linux work reasonably fine as server OS, then the cost starts to be a major issue. And that’s where the licensing fees (actual and planned) of Microsoft really become a barrier adoption.

          I much clearly prefer put money on our project’s needs, rather than giving it to Redmond –alredy rich rich– folks!!

        • #3186647

          Reasonably fine?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Who said there’s something wrong with that?

          I’ve gotta wonder what your definition of “reasonably fine” is with regards to how Windows operates as a server. There’s so much wrong with Windows as a server that I tend to think people who choose Windows servers over unix servers to be somewhere seven leagues south of nutty.

        • #3176738

          Based on experience

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Stable powerful worthless if you can’t…

          both mine and peers who I respect. (most are Windows guys).

          How long has your PC been running non-stop? Did you load it up with 512 or more RAM? Are any of them under a Ghtz?

          Not every windows system crashes all day long and I never said that. Just that there is a much higher instance with the windows because of poor memory management among other things.

          Can you have a Windows box handed off to an enduser who runs minimum of three applications concurently all day long AND is on the internet and not have their system lock, crash, or need any assistance? Why do you think there are so many help desks? How many of the windows “problems” are solved with a reboot?

          I am glad in your issolated world you have never had a system need to be rebooted, but I guess the rest of the world isn’t as good as you or as lucky as you.

          How many linux desktops have you EVER walked up on? Let alone tried to do work on? You are commenting on something you have never seen and have no intention of seeing.

          State that you like windows and it works for you. Fine. That doesn’t make people using something you know nothing about are idiots.

        • #3176736

          You miss the point JD

          by wordworker ·

          In reply to Based on experience

          The guy started the discussion asking about Wintel versions. The Linux-zealots glommed on and took the whole thing off topic and turned it into yet another boring same-old Microsoft bash. You’re also incorrect – I have walked up to many Linux desktop machines and promptly walked away from them in disgust. And I know and like and respect the people who have tried to demo them to me, but I have neither the time nor inclination to learn it. Until I am forced to learn Linux and use it for pay, I don’t see any reason to bother. That doesn’t make me a less capable IT person than the people who embrace it and just LOVE it. I’m not saying Linux lovers are wrong or idiots or anything of the sort. But I resent it when you try to say Wintel boxes crash all the time (they don’t) and you don’t back up your assertions with facts. This was a thread about versions of Windows. Linux shouldn’t have been mentioned in this discussion at all, imo anyway.

        • #3176698

          The thread police have arived

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to You miss the point JD

          Step away from the thread…step away from the thread.

          *Disclaimer: Tangental topics will crop up in every thread given enough posts. While you may not agree with the content of the tangental information, it is pointless to “fight the power.”

        • #3176685

          Crop up?

          by wordworker ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          JMG, the bashing non-responses started in the very first response! Yeesh. They didn’t crop up so much as they took over.

        • #3178581

          subject matter

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          The original post was asking for pros and cons of Windows versions. It didn’t say ANYTHING about that necessarily being in relation to other Windows versions, and the initial answer post never mentioned Linux. The fact the responding party has a penguin in his user icon in no way guarantees he’s a Linux zealot or that he was suggesting anyone use Linux instead of Windows.

          wordworker: You assume much.

          The original post for this thread might easily be construed as asking for comparisons between Windows and other operating systems in general. Get over your attachment to Windows. Methinks you speak too hastily about who the zealots are.

        • #3178479


          by jaqui ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          how was my own opinion on why to not use windoze and why a non response?

          I never said anyhting about other os.
          I only gave 5 reasons not to use windoze and one reason to use it.

          it’s a response, and an honest one.

          take your office xp word document and open it in word 97.

          you can’t the file formats are not the same.

          take that win95 app and run it on your xp system.. you can’t the systems are not compatable.

          do not spend money every month on licensing for the ms products.. oh, you aren’t yet, ms hasn’t gotten the “distributed .net system running yet”
          where you have to pay to buy the software license, and pay every month to be able to use it, off thier servers, costing you data transfer on top of the license.

          ms’s own news releases are what I used to say do not use thier products.

        • #3178423

          Anyone who isn’t a die hard Windows user is a zealot?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          Anyone who isn’t a die hard Windows user is a zealot? But if you ARE a die hard windows user with no intention of learning anything different you aren’t one?

          How does that standard work?

          Your WAY too defensive. Why?

        • #3178372
          Avatar photo

          The main reason that anybody who doesn’t

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          Blindly Believe everything M$ is PERFECT and that there is no other product available to use is because they work in an environment where money is not important and they along with their bosses have swallowed the M$ bait Hook, Line & Sinker so they are unwilling to even open their thought processes to other possibilities particularly if a lot of people tell that that there are cheaper ways of doing the same thing.

          After all if they admitted that it would mean that they chose the wrong product in the first place wouldn’t it?

          And just how many people like to admit that they made a mistake?

          Col ]:)

        • #3176601

          Bingo Col

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          It IS the people that have no concern for what costs the company has that are less likely to try to find ANY savings ever. “It isn’t my money and they can afford it”. Heard that many times.

          Todays business machine in the M$ brianwashed senario of XP/2003, it costs twice as much for the software than it does to buy they system. And that is just for a “common” word procceesing person and no concideration for extras like CAD or graphics!

        • #3176571
          Avatar photo

          You’ve got it in one

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          It’s one of the things that I just when handing over a quote for new computers I list the cost of the Hardware and then the software as on many previous occasions I’ve been told that I’m actually robbing them blind by attempting to charge for the complete computers when they can see adverts for rubbish starting from $1,000.00 AU or less but of course these things do not have an OS or any software.

          With just OEM Windows XP Pro and Office Pro the costs to me are around $800.00 AU per install which suddenly makes the hardware costs not look quite so bad as they generally are only slightly more expensive for the really good stuff that I use and then I get to add the M$ Software which just drives the price through the roof. On almost everything but the basic units that I build the Software costs far more than the actual Hardware ever does and I don’t use all in one M’Boards or unbranded RAM and things like that they suck up system resources. With ATI Video cards and Cosair RAM added in the hardware unless it is something really special always costs less than the software for the same installation. About the only thing that could be improved on the workstations that I build is the quality of the speakers that I supply with them as I only use 120 W crap for any office work as really they do not need anything better but I have seen some one who complained bitterly about the cost of a complete package go elsewhere and buy a less sophisticated system for a server and then buy the software separately for their needs only to have it cost them far more for less of a machine. The fact that the PS died within a week and allowed mains power into the case and then out across the LAN is really neither here nor there but that Court Case will be coming up soon I spent most of last Friday in with the Legal People going through my report on the destruction of the entire network.

          You really have to be a total lost cause to work IT some days and this is one of those years for me anyway. 🙁

          Col ]:)

        • #3176491

          Quality business computer for $400 anyone?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to The thread police have arived

          I don’t think so. That will be XP home version. Not what your looking for buck-o.

          And the integrated video/sound/NIC will quickly drain that 128 M Ram that it comes with.

          And of course the 250W power supply will cause many crashes as soon as you start adding upgrades.

          I am amazed to see they even MAKE a 250W power supply!

          Now buy Office, a corportate Anti-Virus and upgrade to XP Pro.

          Better put more memory in that pig or you will really be hurting with crashes multiple times a day. Many computer “problems” fixed by adding more memory. So we run up to staples or what ever office supply and hope that we accidentaly grab the correct type of memory. Of course we get the cheapest we can to save money for the company!

          Need another hard drive? oh, this quantam is much cheaper! Lets get that!

          Oh the humanity!

          I love the smell of melted motherboards in the morning.

        • #3176665

          And I DID give a Windows opinion

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to You miss the point JD

          Now if the threads evolve into a discussion of the pros and cons, that isn’t always a bad thing and doesn’t take away from the discussion. It wouldn’t be a “discussion” if it was just a list of what everyones independant thoughts were about Windows products.

          I didn’t see you rake the MAC users over the coals even though they weren’t invited to the party either. One would think you have an axe to grind here?

          I also notice your post was not just a clear view of the pros and cons of windows. Strayed off topic yourself about people straying off topic? Half of your post was off topic.

          How was mine, “Pros and Cons?” (post 9)

          One of the FEW that stayed completely on topic. Too bad you can’t say the same.

          You just came to the table looking for something that isn’t an issue. Enjoy your Windows.

        • #3176664
          Avatar photo

          On these Linux Boxes

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You miss the point JD

          What was actually loaded?

          If they had Gnome or KDE as a desktop GUI very likely you would see very few differences except that every time you install a program you are asked to type in the Administrator Password.

          If they had a stripped down server with only a Command Line Interface it was for a specific job and didn’t need the wasteful things that can be added. But even the most basic Live CD Distro has a GUI that while being different from Windows mainly because you have 4 available desktops and not just the one are very useful and extremely easy to use.

          Granted I’m biased as I started working with computers on mainframes that took up entire buildings running Unix and we just even then didn’t have the issues that even the most current Windows Box has with anything. Todays Linux is so much like Windows that I can honestly see very little difference on the desktop and the main difference is that they just run faster crunch more numbers in a shorter time and remain generally secure with very little attention which is a lot more than can be said for all the Windows Boxes that I also maintain.

          But if you really want something funny have a look at the banner advert across the top about the TCO of Windose VS Linux they add is quite correct if you consider the very limited confines that it was run in but I’ve also seen the same thing run to prove that the TCO is far cheaper using at least Servers with Linux on a Windows Network as you do not run into all the licensing problems that you do with any of the MS server products like needing additional licenses for an already expensive product.

          The fact that in all honestly about 80% of Desktops could be migrated to Linux without any noticeable differences being realized by the end users is just a bonus. There must be a reason why the big Blades, Server Farms and Mainframes run Unix/Linux or whatever if only because MS just doesn’t have a product to compete with these installations.

          Col ]:)

        • #3176619

          Don’t bother adding in servers

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to On these Linux Boxes

          WordWorker is talking purely about a desktop that he can send and e-mail from, type up a document or play solitare from.

          With no way to qualify what these many “linux desktops” were, you can’t concede or discredit it because who knows what he saw?

          He LIKES windows. He is COMFORTABLE with windows. And even though MS is CONSTANTLY saying with each OS release that it is “more stable” he still wants proof that it ever wasn’t stable.

          You can’t show someone what they are unwilling to look at.

        • #3172543

          Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

          by mckendrick ·

          In reply to Based on experience

          issues, man. take a deep breath.

      • #3179038
        Avatar photo

        In some applications the Wintel boxes are there for a reason

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to On-topic response

        Like any advertising place where color rendering is important they have to stick to the same CPU. Apparently the Floating point Integer on different Brands of CPU give different colors in the final product, That might be a minor inconvenience in a glossy mag add but it would be an impossible situation for the movie industry that is so tied up with CG to be so big as a insurmountable problem.

        Of course if they wish to change all their boxes over to a different CPU and their servers the Big Blades here I’m talking about it might be a different story. But I do not see that happening in the short term at least and for that very reason I can not see them mixing their standard CPU set either.

        Col ]:)

      • #3189078

        I’m surpriced…

        by abel46 ·

        In reply to On-topic response

        when I read all that people that says that Windows is unstable. OK if you refer to win9x family then I agree, but NT, 2000, 2003 and XP?

        I have worked for different companys runing from one to 30 Windows servers. And I can’t remember a single time when a Windows server has crashed.

        They are stopped from time to time to upgrade or maintainance but that an other story.

        I have used Win XP with SP2 for some months now, and I can’t understand why some varn abut this. For me it’s rock solid anyway.

        I use CA antivirus and MS anti spyware.

    • #3177709

      Quite Funny …

      by dwdino ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      I still have yet to experience all these horrors and I have been supporting MS platforms large and small for many years.

      What is the old saying … ounce of prevention …

      Macs – Physical designs are great, but I can handle more than one mouse button.

      Linux – Great, if you know and understand IS well enough. Not refined or restrained enough for average joe yet.

      Anyway, have a good day.

      • #3176785

        re: Linux

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to Quite Funny …

        Some of us prefer our OSes un-neutered (oh, sorry, I meant “unrestrained”). As such, I’ll stick with something like Linux.

        As for what is presented to the end user: a Linux system can be much more effectively locked down to protect the end-user from himself than a Windows system. It’s just not locked down that way by default, usually, because it’s meant to be useful to the IT genius as well as the knuckleheaded luddites of the world. If you want it neutered for your end users, neuter it yourself.

        • #3176731

          And don’t confuse

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to re: Linux

          Unrestrained with insecure.

          A DEFAULT linux box is still generally a secure box as most protocols you need in order to get remote access have to be TURNED ON by the admin (root) before the box will even LOOK for anything coming in.

          Yes, a clean install of XP with SP2 IS much better than all previous WINDOWS systems, but how much are you saying when you can only say it is more secure than the last products you bought from MS?

          YES, a clean install of XP with SP2 is more stable than older WINDOWS boxes. Just hope your vendor paid to be certified by MS so their application will run on the system.

        • #3176632


          by jck ·

          In reply to re: Linux

          don’t talk about me that way!

          You know, some of us knuckle-headed luddites are sensitive. 🙁


          I got a dummies book on Linux…Friggin gave up on learning it all on my own from websites…info is too sporadic and twisted…I got a book that includes my Xandros distro, so I’m off to the races 🙂

          btw…I’ve seen more NT server crashes than *nix crashes…by far…and I have been around Windows server systems and *nix server systems for around a decade (NT 3.5x in the mid 90s and Unix as far back as the late 80s).

          I think the biggest factor is the quality of your server admin. If they know their stuff, they can lock either down.

          And, I do think Linux/Unix admins do have to be more intimate with their OS, i.e.- Windows has an easier learning curve…hence, you have less “weeding-out” of the less-able to learn admins. Hence, why it is easier to be a Windows admin…it’s more stupid-user/admin friendly.

          Their new slogan should be:
          Microsoft…which idiot do we want to login today?

          Oh wait…that’s their old push…
          the new one:

          Microsoft: The only thing more fun than creating tomorrow’s technology…is making a bundle of money from it!

    • #3176722

      To Sum It Up Simply

      by tomsal ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Pro: It’s not Linux

      Con: It’s not Linux

    • #3178678

      Reply To: Pros and Cons of Windows

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      prairiedog (11:54 AM) :
      well finally i have come up with a good use for xp. a disposable operatin system.
      Jaqui (11:56 AM) :
      well now I gotta use that line
      prairiedog (11:56 AM) :
      prairiedog (11:57 AM) :
      it takes about 5 seconds to clone a fresh one and about the same amount of time to delete it again

    • #3176560

      Too much info to sift

      by mjd420nova ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      I really want to get into this discussion but don’t really have the time to go through all
      the replies and rants that I know will be here.

      • #3176520

        After a while you learn

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Too much info to sift

        whos judgement you respect so you can sort through a post like this for the main meat of it.

        I personally completely ignore myself as I am just an over opinionated know-it-all it seems because I don’t exclusively use Windows.

        Tip for faster reading, go into print posting mode and you can read all of the postings without having to keep hitting “next” and then wait for the page to reload. Goes much quicker.

        Read what others say and then make up your own mind.

        Happy sifting.

    • #3178130

      5 of 145 replies on topic

      by wordworker ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      By my count only 5 of 145 responses in this thread actually attempted to answer the original question. That’s sad.

      • #3178068

        That all depends

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to 5 of 145 replies on topic

        If you counted YOUR reply, then back it down to FOUR as yours was half off topic rant as well.

        That’s sad.

      • #3178051


        by apotheon ·

        In reply to 5 of 145 replies on topic

        Not only are you ignoring what has already been said about on-topicness and how one’s post qualifies in this thread, aside from the fact you’ve contributed as much to off-topicness as anyone else, but I count rather more posts that tried to answer the original post even by your own artificially narrow standards.

        In addition to all that, you seem to be confusing responses to responses with responses to the original post. If a post answers the post to which it responds, it’s on-topic to some degree at least. You should really only be measuring the on-topic rate in top-level responses. There are only five top-level responses that are really on-topic by your standards (several more if we use inclusive standards that aren’t designed to make people look bad by excluding their responses from “on-topic” by imposing your personal interpretation of the original post’s vagueness), this much is true, but rather than 145 posts now we’re talking about only thirteen top-level responses.

        Of those thirteen top-level responses, whittled down to eight off-topic according to your apparently arbitrary standards, two are yours. Of those two, one is entirely off-topic. That gives you about a 50% contribution rate to being off-topic and failing to respond. Your off-topic post is actually off-topic by the standards of [b]any[/b] reasonable interpretation of the original post’s meaning, in fact, and not just by [b]your[/b] standards. Another is off-topic because some Mac user decided to say nothing of much value. Another is off-topic because some Windows user decided to proselytize without actually answering the question or even acknowledging that it exists. Another is just a random troll.

        I’m most interested, though, in the facts that A) the actual percentage of on-topic top-level responses [b]even by your own standards[/b] is not 3% as you suggest, but 38%, and B) of your own top-level responses, 50% are entirely off-topic, and the other 50% is full of off-topic complaining, [b]even by your own standards[/b]. People in glass houses, et cetera.

        • #3178045


          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to wrong-o

          Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.

          A pox on both your houses.


        • #3177623


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Pedantic

          2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand – they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, ?Oh, ignore him, he’s just a troll.? Compare kook.

          (from the Jargon File)

        • #3177576


          by wordworker ·

          In reply to troll

          you know what you are! ;\

        • #3188028


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to threadjacker

          Is that directed at me or James Linn?

        • #3188023

          Et tu, Apo’?

          by wordworker ·

          In reply to Pardon?

          Actually I meant to make it plural and direct it toward nobody and everybody in particular. I just couldn’t resist jumping into the cyberslangfest you guys had going on.

        • #3187956


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Pardon?

          I’m pretty sure I was the only one to use hacker jargon in this. James Linn is just really fond of the word “pedant” and its variants, apparently.

      • #3178031

        It could be worse

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to 5 of 145 replies on topic

        Why don’t you try and load the “Evolution Lie” thread. Make sure you have at least a minute to wait…almost 2500 posts and not one of them is on topic 😉

        • #3177586
          Avatar photo

          I don’t know about that one

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to It could be worse

          After all every one of my posts about the “White Mice” is directly related to the EL thread. 😀

          So I contributed while it was still possible to navigate. 🙁

          Col ]:)

        • #3177564

          I wonder if TR can break it up

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I don’t know about that one

          Ya, that thing is a monster. I can’t even figure out who is replying to what and what threads are “live” anymore.

        • #3177491
          Avatar photo

          Well I gave up ages ago

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I wonder if TR can break it up

          But EL is now nearing 6 months and still looks no closer to stopping that when it started. I wonder what they have still got to say to each other. :}

          I escaped when they started going round in circles about the 4 th time. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3187902


          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Well I gave up ages ago

          me never got caught in that thread.
          I escaped the insanity completely.

        • #3187421
          Avatar photo

          Well then mate you haven’t LIVED yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to ~L~

          At first I thought it might be interesting but I very quickly came to the conclusion that it was nothing but a waste of time so I just kept posting Jokes which a few took seriously. 😀

          But honestly it was like when I did Government work it only felt really good when you stooped bashing your head against that big solid brick wall. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3188024

          how to know what’s live

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I wonder if TR can break it up

          You could just do searches for the string ” 06/” to find posts made during the last month. Heh.

          Not that I’m suggesting you do that, mind you. I haven’t read that thread since the last time I posted in it.

      • #3177583
        Avatar photo

        What is really SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to 5 of 145 replies on topic

        Is that you are continuing the trend not to answer the original posters obvious Assignment Question. 😀

        Well as you obviously do not want to help this person why is it that you think the rest of us should? :p

        At best in one attempt you made some half hearted attempt to answer the question but them instead of providing facts you used this as an opportunity to go off on a tangent to attack others who didn’t seem to want to contribute to a students question with comments that would help them obtain a mark that was better than what they deserved, but you took this opportunity to attack the non Windows Community in general and Linux in particular, so you where on your Soap Box more than anyone else here. 😀

        Why is it that you see a need to stay on topic by others when you yourself are unable to do so? 😉

        Col ]:)

        • #3177569

          COL, you don’t actually expect an answer do you?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to What is really SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          There will be a few shots across the bow, but nothing that will support any kind of a point of view that has more thought to it than “I know you are but what am I?”

          Notice when he attacked the of-topics it was only the linux and not the MAC crowd. Didn’t say a peep to them. That doesn’t show a trend does it? Didn’t think so.

        • #3177492
          Avatar photo

          No I really don’t expect an answer

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to COL, you don’t actually expect an answer do you?

          I was just trying to point out the Hypocrisy’s of his entire argument, these Big Bad Nasty Nix’s people out there are all trying to make it into a war of OS’s. 😀

          While I do accept that there are a few people who are Linux only there are far more who will use the best tool for the job in hand and quite often Windows just doesn’t have a product to fill that need. I’ve just had to reboot my Debian gateway after 325 days of up time because I’ve just upgraded the OS to the latest kernel where as I’m lucky to see a Windows Server running for 1 month without a reboot. Although the patch that I got today for all the XP boxes here didn’t require a reboot so it must not have been anything important. 🙂

          You had better be quite about the Apple products as being a confirmed Windows Supporter I didn’t think that still existed. 😉 After all M$ hasn’t told me about them for several years now. :p

          Col ]:)

    • #3172634

      Are you a troll?

      by martykro ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Rthomson, I think that this was a very succesfull trolling atempt.

      • #3172555

        I’m with you

        by techlizard ·

        In reply to Are you a troll?

        No response, not so much as a thanks, just got everyone all riled up on their sides…

    • #3172631


      by sailnow ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      I am using Win XP home on a laptop and XP Pro on a desk top.
      1. Love the “System Restore” feature
      2. Love the seeming “self healing” after near crashes – much better than my original Win 95B and Win 98SE.
      3. Don’t like slowness of loading – but I do have a lot of stuff on the computer (Laptop 60 GB) and running in background – though I try to eliminate unnecessary things by accessing config.
      4. Cost – I guess I feel it is bit steep – and the accompanying user software by MS also steep $. Am using some FreeWare that works well and gradually exploring “Open Source” programs like “Open Office” and IrfanView for photography.
      5. Like the automatic updates.

      HATE the MS windows AV & Firewall. BUT I never turned it “ON”, and do like the alert that comes up if either my AV or Firewall are accidentaly turned off. I use Panda for AV/Firewall, run Lavasoft “Ad-Aware” and “SpyBot” all the time and do a scan at least once a week and keep the data files up to date nearly every day. Occasionally I go online to “BitDefender” site and download their online scan to be sure there is nothing hidden that my other programs happen to miss. No invasions yet, and I want to keep it that way.
      Bill Wilcox

    • #3172630

      Windows Support

      by ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      One thing you must put in your report is a comment about support. While Linus is free it’s a question on getting people to support the OS in a business situation.

      The availability of IT Staff for Windows OS vs other os is high. End-to-End support for other Microsoft WIndows applications from a single source.

      • #3186840
        Avatar photo


        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Windows Support

        In every case where I’ve had to ring M$ for support and bear in mind I’m a Certified Partner and are supposed to get preferential treatment it has been a total mess up which has required at least 4 total reloads from scratch and even after hours on the phone I’ve never got a correct answer. SO M$ support isn’t all it’s cracked up to be and the customer pays in most instances so it isn’t free either.

        Now take a company like IBM who has their own Linux Development Staff who Liaise with both RedHat and Novel if they are unable to solve a problem on the phone for you they take the problem away and get back to you within 24 hours with a solution. When you have a big Server fall over it’s far easier to get support on a Linux OS and have it up and running properly than it is on a M$ OS sure you might get it back up but it will not be running right until you have fixed the bug that has taken it out. My biggest bugbear was the patches being released which did a lot more damage that they where supposed to cure and I’ve had to pull a Backup HDD out of the safe more times than I care to think about to get a system up and running again in very short order as yet on Unix/Linux/BSD I have not as yet had this problem but I’ve only been using Unix since 1972. 🙂

        Col ]:)

    • #3172629

      What I love about M$ Windows. . . .

      by jlangdon ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      If my employer were to switch to a more stable desktop OS, I’d be out of a job. Windows pays the bills.

    • #3172625

      trying straight talk

      by roch.leduc ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      1. Pro: company. you have plenty of company, like 95% of the desktops in the world. Unless your client base is esoteric, you will profit from everybody else’s bug reports.

      Con: company. you are a small fish to M$. You are painting a bulls eye on your systems because they are the most actively hacked; your specific, esoteric bugs will be lost in the millions of other bug reports.

      2. pro: integrated: your software stack in the M$ environment is the most integrated software on the planet. M$ Office is a high quality, high productivity environment for office automation. They have a variety of features that is downright dazzling.
      Con: integrated. When you adopt a software stack, you adopt the whole thing when its integrated. Beware of versionitis and cascading dot upgrades. Also, you are adopting a business model. You cannot achieve this integration at 0 cost. you have to do business the M$ way, or the integration is shot.

      I could go on and mention: standards; support; development environment; certified resources.

      bottom line: pick your poison, because there is no way to dodge all the trouble.

      • #3186769

        re integration:

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to trying straight talk

        this is actually a bad thing.
        the bad coding in the apps, the requirement that they run as administrator, the heavy use of activex and vbscript all make this integration more destructive.

        everything should be segregated.. so that a fault with an app doesn’t bring down the entire system.

    • #3172622

      A Simple Response Is All That Is Needed

      by dotxen ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Pro – Familiarity
      Cons – Stability, Security, Price, endless tedious patching and updates.

      I am sure that this is less than a granular answer, but it is pretty accurate.

    • #3172620

      There are quassi pros only I can provide…

      by alexandrescu_emil_cristian ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Windows OSs are there for a long time, wide spreaded and there is a lot of “down the hall” answers one can get; there are a lot of applications too.

      Everything else! sorry, but that’s the trueth about Windows OSs.

    • #3172619

      Why NOT XP??

      by kedia990 ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows

      Look at it practically…Windows now forms the base for each and every software, game or anythong else that is ever launched.

      NO! not everything works on linux/mac, too…

      o’course, a hell lot of faults in the kernel, but u gotta accept it.

    • #3172602

      Pros and Cons of Windows

      by abmartinez ·

      In reply to Pros and Cons of Windows


      I am a Systems Security Administrator of a local telecomunications company for the northern part of Spain. We have always used Sun Solaris systems for supporting our core business applications. However and contrary to my preferences, We are moving more and more to Windows servers.

      As I am a Systems Security administrator, my pros and cons will be based on security reasons:


      -By Default, Windows Servers have a big deal of open ports. But this is not the worst of it, the worst part is that you cannot disable some of them if you want the server to work properly. I am talking about RPC Locator: 135 TCP, Netbios: 137-139 UDP/TCP and SMB: 445 TCP.

      -It frecuently happens that the before mentioned ports are the ones where most of Windows critical vulnerabilities tend to be concentrated on.

      -The Internet Explorer is integrated within the operating system to such extend that makes this browser a huge security hole.

      -I could tell you more cons, but I think that it is enough for today.


      -It is by far the most extended and popular operating system, you know, most popular things are not always the best ones.

      -In seems that Microsoft is making a big effort in trying to secure their products as a result of his security strategy started in early 2002. As a result, Windows 2003 is a very solid and secure operating system by default comparing with the other operating systems of Microsoft.

      Nothing else for today.

      Have a nice day!!