Hardware

Ask something
Discussion Locked

Recordings old and new

0 helpful
60 replies

by oz_media

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Being in a business with extremely high end audio products, I have noticed that there are few to no recent recordings that actually display high resolution, soundstaging, transparency etc.

While it appears that music quality is of the utmost these days, nothing is cleaner than digital they say, I have actually not seen a quality recording for ages.

In the old vinyl days, Chesky recordings were the tops. Nobody had ever recreated audio the way he and his team did. His high resolution recordings, 96kHz/24bit, have yet to be topped....that I have heard.

Have people just simply forgotten about real audio due to the low grade trollop we are force fed these days, or do people actually feel that today's recordings offer a high enough standard to show off your system?

Is it perhaps that our ears are being desensitized and having lower expectations?

Are big box stores, blowing out Mexican made Polk speakers, now considered quality audio retailers?

Do people who buy a $4000.00 plasma TV and then spend $200.00 on "surround sound in a box" actually feel they are getting their money's worth?

Maybe the younger generation has never heard quality audio and they feel that what is around now is suitable?

Why, with all of the technological advancements around today, is it harder to find an audiophile quality recording amongst the trash?

To this day, the best recordings I've heard include just about anything by Telarc, Chesky recordings (circa 1985)and the old B7W audiophile tracks (they did two pretty good jazz disks) and of course, Dire Straights Bros. In Arms, which is still one of my favorite demo disks, and one of the most dynamic too.

Perhaps THAT is the issue, most high res recordings are of Jazz or soloists singing acappella, not exactly the fodder of today's mainstream. Then again, most of you know I am into heavy metal and have managed some pretty hard core bands, but I still appreciate quality audio when I am looking to have my ears sweetened.

Does anyone here know of high quality recordings anymroe, or is it a lost art even in a far more advanced audio world.

60 replies

by jdclyde

Most people couldn't tell the difference anyways. I personally blame the original walkman, and then the diskman, for making the crap headphones standard issue.

by jamesrl

The first walkman's headphones were pretty good for the day. It was the me too makers who sold on price that brought it down.

Personally I hate earbuds, won't use em. My current headphones aren't as good as the old Sennheisers I used for recording, but then they are much cheaper. On the other hand, those Bose noise reducing things are crap too - you can get as good a sound from a $50 set of headphones and save yourself $350.

Part of the problem with computer speakers is the need for shielding. The good speakers with heavy magnets would require massive shielding, so they try to get away with as small a speaker as possible.

I actually have some rather nice computer speakers, but they are monsoon electrostatic ones and were very expensive.

James

by oz_media

First of all, I agree wholly with your Sennheiser comments, Ibought a lightweight reference model a couple of years ago, I think we were talking about that before, and they are simply incredible with highbitrate copies in my MP3 plpayer.

Bose is getting pretty bad now, they are simply marketing geniuses but the speakers are prety useless these days. Same thing with Paradigm, I remember repping for Paradigm in teh 80's and they were a force to be reckoned with, but as with most others, they look to big box solutions. Polk, sure they sound good, they also cost far too much for what you actually get and positioning is nearly impossible in most rooms, many people don't realize that Polk moved manufacturing to Mexico over 15 years ago and quality dropped as a result.

I've heard the Monssons for computers, they are really cool, as you say pretty pricey too. I have Altec Lansing three channel myself, solid wood encased in a plastic, it sounds pretty good for a PC speaker, I use it as a surround for the bedroom tv where I play my computer vids.

I think shielding is getting better now though, with two piece, fully capped magnets, stray fields are becoming rare, I see this as a result of the home theater craze and extends into most freestanding models now.

Oh well, time for a little music.

by oz_media

Seriously, JD, I've often spouted about how the industry has complete control over what most kids like and buy. They own the radio stations, the music stores, the television/advertising networks, artists, etc. So they force feed mainstream spew until it brainwashes people. New bands have little chance in North America because of the absolute control of the industry and marketing avenues. You can become famous, but not on your own.

In Europe it's SIMILAR but there is still a great freedom to choose your sound, even though there is a massive pop culture also.

As a result, low quality recordings of low quality music on low quality media take over. It's like when K-Tel and all the others started putting out cheap vinyl. You'd buy brandnew records with massive warps that only lasted three months of hard play, and even then the original recordings were chopped and resampled to fit 50 hits on one album.

Sigh, sorry, don't mean to rant and ramble but it's just so frustrating to see such an important medium, for all cultures, being trampled into the dust.

by jdclyde

the spew of boybands.

Now if only they would get rid of the Britney's and other no-talent "performers", including the rap/gangsta-rap movement.

People used to get famous for doing something special. :(

by drowningnotwaving

Advanced audio was ever only the addiction of a certain type of person.

I have an uncle who spent a gazillion on very high quality audio gear, but lived 50 yards from the railway line !!! Funnier still, he installed a truck load of sound-proofing in the walls and the ceilings, only to suffer when the tunnel for the Eastern Suburbs railway was built underneath his home (Redfern, for the Sydney folks). That was back in the 70s. He has lived with the rumble of underground railway ever since!

But seriously, audio quality on average has increased significantly. Compare the overall quality of spending, say, $2,000 on a good audio system now versus 20 years ago.

Even relating to band gear. Look at the cost of something equivalent to a Mesa Boogie. Years ago expensive - particularly for desperado musos. Now, equivalent quality is positively affordable. But if I want, I can still spend $10,000 on an amp head and speakers. I doubt that the punter in the third row knows the difference.

Since most of us have lost major proportions of our hearing by the time we're 20 thru 25, it is only a very few people that can actually distinguish the difference between a good $1,000 set of speakers and a great $10,000 set. In fact, put good EQ behind them and use good quality cables and most people would be hard pressed to tell any difference whatsoever.

If you can, by the way, good luck to you. :)

There are still heaps of boutique manufacturers around happy to take your personal gazillions!! Just don't move into a house underneath a major flight-path.

(Having also played (and still playing) in bands for years, though, Oz, I would bet internet money that you have suffered at least average, if not more, hearing degradation at the mid- to high- spectrum. Ever once had the 'buzz' the next day? Most likely many, many times; particularly if you've been in the rehearsal studios. At least at a gig the sound can go away a bit).

Now tell me you played drums for years but your ears are fine !!! :)

edited: oops - meant expensive.

by oz_media

While I did detract from my intent somewhat, I was actually referring to teh quality of today's digital recordings compared to high res recordings from the past. Today's music doesn't even come close.

As far as old vs new equipment, I have managed a few guys who have taken on guitar deals from relatively unknowns. In the end you get a gyuitar that practically equals a classic, well built and very expensive guitar, but not with as much quality as before.

Whenit comes to Amplifiers (2 channel home or even surround receivers) quality today is not even remotely close to what it used ot be. The old test, "if it weighs a tonne it's worth a mint and sounds awesome" rings very true. Weight is offered by the transformers, no weight = masked audio, cheezy power colored to sound 'acceptable'... to some.

Mpney? I can go and buy an HK 680i for under $150.00. Made in the early 80's, the 680i puts out only 60WPC, but that will outperform todays 1200W Pioneer or even the new HK by a mile. Even the simplest, peasant ears, would hear a very noticable difference in presence and power at all volumes without distortion. There simply is no comparisson. Even high end like Cambridge or Rotel aren't as good as they used to be, you can buy a 20 year old amp for under $300.00 that outperforms one they made ths week. So high end/quality audio is actually affordable now, whereas new equipment offers bells and whistles but not clarity of sound at all volumes, why? No such thng as current anymroe, ever since the 80's and 90's pushed everyone to looking for wattage specs.

Ears, after touring with Judas Priest, nope they are not as good as they used to be. I remember working Iron Maiden in the 80's and having rining that didn't clear between shows, resulting in several weeks of "weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" you get the picture. :)

During a Motorhead show, I was working at the front of the stage where I was standing beside Lemmy's bass cabs for nearly 30 minutes, couldn't hear for quite a while after that one either. You're right though in that gigging or even backlining is a lot easier on the ears than being front/side stage or at the mix board, especially these days where on stage monitors (especially ear monitors) actually work.

This doesn't mean I can't identify a bad recording or not be able to appreciate what real clean power sound like compared to todays garbage product lines.

Buy vintage, save a heap of money and end up with high quality sound. An HK870 AMP, new well over $1600.00 is now about $350.00 (if you can find one!!!) ad they are still at the top of the audio list and aree sought after.

I think people just get fooled into thinking new technology is better technology.

I did play drums for years, though mostly easy on the ears, sesion work to fix tracks after cuts were done. I did gig in outdoor festivals as a drummer but that's a hell of a lot easier to deal with without the resonance of a building.

by gadgetgirl

thanks Oz, I thought it was just me.

It seems to be both the quality of recordings, and the quality of equipment in the home.

Typical case in point: although Pa has industrial deafness, and Ma has tinnitus (yeah, makes for great conversations.....) they still like their music, and still go out sequence dancing every week. As they learn new dances, they want to practice, so at home, they put CD's on.....

Pa has been saying for years that some recordings are better than others, and some are actually *recorded* better than others (i.e. you CAN actually adjust the base and tone individually - successfully) In an effort to help both he and Ma, he invested in another sound set up, even though this meant ditching his old turntable integrated with his old stereo.

It hasn't worked. Not only does the new unit have limited volume, it insists on integrating the tone and bass lines; as Pa uses the bass line for the predominant dance beat, that's made life a little sticky, shall we say? Put it this way - I'm expecting to be told to look for a second hand unit on eBay, and when he gets it, the new one will be disposed of in the same way....

Funnily enough, I had a nice drive into work today, listening to the new Status Quo single, being released next week from their 33rd album... Hey! I can headbang and drive at the same time.... :D :p

Love to know who was ringing that bell in my car all the way to work after that, though... ;)

GG

by jdclyde

Ah, gotta love my now constant companion, mr. ringing.

From years of working in loud shops (yes, I used ear plugs) and years of traveling with local bands (nothing major, but we DID open for some cool bands B-) ) there is some damage to the ears.

In general it doesn't bother me, until it is perfectly quiet. That is when the ringing starts and gets so loud I can't hear anything. :(

That is why I go to sleep to music. Usually something nice and soothing, like pantera..... ;\ A long time ago, I had found a "pillow speaker" which slipped inside your pillow case on the other side of the pillow, so you can hear it but your partner can't. Of course, when she would piss me off I would intentionally move my head so it wasn't covered....... ]:)

It really is the little things in life that mean so much! :D

by hal 9000

JD you mean little things like Black Sabbath being played at 78 and Audio Assault Levels at 6.00 AM in the mourning with a pair of AR9's 3 inches from each ear being over driven by a real 800W per Chanel Amp?

Col

by hal 9000

I haven't heard anything half way decent in years.

Personally I think that it's the Recording Industry pushing out the junk because it's easier to produce and press so there is no time spent properly recording and mixing the tracks. The over all quality of Music has fallen down the [b]Sewer[/b] with no one complaining any more. The best that I can say is that I'll stick with my older Vinyl and Turntable and be happy with it. I may even get a cassette player one day but I just can not stomach the noise that they make any more.

As for decent Audio Stuff it's no longer available new and even something as simple as Open Real Tapes are almost impossible to buy at what passes for [b]High Fi Audio Stores.[/b] They seem to be selling complete crap to the public relying on iffy marketing spiels to sell product like Long Crystal Oxygen Free Copper used in Transformer windings some how make the things sound better. :D :^0

What is really disappointing is the way that people buy this crap and think that they have something good when the truth is that most of it is complete crap that I wouldn't have bought when I first started working and had no money. But the ones who drive me nuts are those who waste money on car sound systems and then insist that they have [b]Great Sound[/b] and are unable to hear the crap coming out of the speakers.

The only good thing about these sound systems is that with what is played on them it's impossible to call any of it good music most is just noise and from what I've seen it's better to blow out glass than have clean sound. The people who buy this stuff insist that they have excellent sound equipment that gives clean sound and then insist on turning it up to [b]Audio Assault Levels[/b] which is OK provided that the entire body of the car isn't vibrating in sympathy and colouring the sound. :D

For some reason they think that this is great but I just cringe at the horrible noise that is being made.

However I'll stick to my expensive Pickup's that are almost impossible to get now days unless on special order as no one currently uses needles anymore. Apparently they are no longer made by anyone or so I'm told. :^0

As for the Surround Sound systems people think that the sound is Good which it is compared to what the TV make but it still leaves a lot to be desired, however for what it is it's OK provided that you do not press it up the Audio Scale.

There is very little Low End Response or High End Response delivered now days. Seems that provided that they can pump out noise without any guts things are good to the average punter today.

Col

by hal 9000

People now consider sound like a Poker Machine Hi Fi.

That would explain quite a lot wouldn't it?

by dadspad

Oh yes, to buy the equipment you needed a 2nd mortgage! The equipment also seemed to need repairs more that you would think.

Unfortunately, they also sold very cheap record players back then also. Many people had them. When I met my now wife, I did notice her record player sounded like crap, but my focus was on her more than the sound. Later when we were engaged, I told her the record player was ruining her collection. She accused me of being elitist because I had a better system than her. I asked her to just put on an record and look closely at the needle. Vinyl was being pealed up behind the needle in a ribbon. She decided to play them on my system as we would be living together soon.

I had the habit of playing a vinyl record album the first time and recording to a reel to reel, then moving to cassette for portability.

I am not sure that I haven't lost my 'ear' to hear the real difference between true high quality recording and what they call high quality recordings now. :( But I do notice that sometimes instuments are not a clear as they should be on a CD.

by dadspad

It is hard to have younger people understand what recordings used to sound like.

I will admit right up front that I was not in or part of a band, and I could never afford the high end equipment I wanted. I just obtained the best I could at the time. But it seemed better that most of the stuff out today. Yes, for most of the music that is sold and listened to, the new players work just fine.

I found that most new equipment is designed to give theater enhanced sound. This is not the same as high quality recordings. [It does seem, to me, that movie theaters in the past had much better sound systems than today, but that is just my memory (which, like my hearing, is not functioning as well as back then.] :)

I remember when I was starting out, a sound system was an important part of a new apartment/house. Now days young adults have most of their songs on their laptops and just by computer speakers for it. That is their sound system and all they know about how recordings should sound like.

In some ways it is sad. :(

by oz_media

Having seen a few million dollar+ home theater systems, engineered over months with hours and hours of consultative calls from manufacturer's, sound staging, sonance testing etc. I can tell you firsthand, you really can build an incredible system (not that I have such a system myself of course).

RBH is one company that makes a tower system (T-3 I believe) that has been tested with high output levels. It is apprently putting out 120db of sound pressure!! A lot more than your local Cineplex. It does it cleanly too, I may add.

Yes there is great hardware still, but just as before, that hardware (Cambridge, Rotel, Radford Grant etc. comes at a very hefty price, offers low wattage and sells on possible sound pressure levels and amperage (ooooh amperage!!!).

Yup, my old HK870 will stay with me for a long time. I just picked up an H/K 680i receiver for less than $100.00 WHAT A STEAL!!! It still runs circles around anything Future Shop spews out today, and even most of HK's newer product....and hey, who can resist a brushed, champagne gold face? Oooooh, no wi wanna go home and listen to my tunes, the system in my soundroom at work just doesn't compare (time to upgrade by buying old hardware).

YOu know you can still buy those old MArantz receivers too for next tonothing now?? Just look at the goodies these guys have!?!? And CHEEEEEEAAAAAPO!!!!!!!! WOW! Why go to Best Buy when guys like this do it right?? YOU can even get old tube amps, with tubes cleaned or replaced, for less than the price of a ticket to see the American Idol Tour!

http://www.oaktreeent.com/
http://www.iavscanada.com
http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/

by jdclyde

is that you would know how much a ticket to see the American Idol tour would cost.....

EEWWWWWWWWW! :p

by hal 9000

Something about creating undue noise when people are asleep. But I know from experience when I lived in the country that the neighbours could hear my music when I played it. They where only 3 miles away over cleared and tree ed ground and over a couple of hills. :D

God it sounded great. :^0

Now I have to keep it quite because all the neighbour hood complains except when the JW's are making the rounds and War Pigs gets played at high volumes. :D

Col

by jdclyde

Apple Computer announced today that it has developed a computer chip that can store and play high fidelity music in women's
breast implants.

The iTit will cost $499 or $599 depending on speaker size.

This is considered to be a major breakthrough because women have always complained about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

by oz_media

Women complain that nipples are not radio dials!!(or at least so I hear from other people who fidget like little boys in bed ;) )

Little did they know we knew what was coming and were simply practicing, or hoping for teh FM-Boob.

by oz_media

I agree, and I think we are starting to see a turn. The kiddies that swooned over boy bands (when they were still boys) seem to be getting a bit older and throwing out the boy band thing. I see more and more pop/rock takign the limelight now, just like when angst ridden teens started moving toward Sound Garden after Nirvana was done.

Once again though, Sound Garden, Nickleback etc. are all just industry sheep.

I think music will eventually win, it seems that the old rock and blues always creeps back in regardless of the industry.

I am just disappointed that the quality of recording has slid so much, you simply can't buy quality audio recordings these days. It's all overcompressed shite now, to make it sound bigger then the weak BS they recorded in the studio. Bands don't have full guitar sounds anymore, vocals are thin, at most a bit growly from some kid about to lose his voice in 3 months of touring.

As one of my past acts always said, "weak", when listening to new music, "just weak". Who wants that?

by jdclyde

and anyone can be made into a star, for a while. X-(

Nickleback has taken the route of Bon Jovi and Ratt. Make one song that is a "hit" and then repackage it over and over and over and .....

by oz_media

First off, when Bon Jovi ws a big deal in teh 80's I HATED his BS.

Now that they have proven themselves by lastign the decades, and not wihtout the amazing support of Richie Sambora (what a talent!) I see them as proven and established.

Nickleback was a punk band when they recorded at our local studio. They sold out and yes fit the mold with a thousand songs that soud the same.

Now lets be fair though, TALENT is a different story. It's not bands that sound teh same that are a problem, it's bands that change to fit a mainstream mold that's the problem. Once there, they are dine for because the mold changes faster than they can tour.

TO illustrate my point: AC/DC

A reporter once asked, "hwy why did you guys write 10 albums that all sound the same?"

Angus Young replied " We didn't, we wrote [b]11[/b] albums that all sound the same, because THAT'S WHO WE ARE!! Who were we SUPPOSED to sound like?"

As for Ratt, a band I managed was SUPPOSED to open for them at a local Vancouver club. After sound check, Ratt decided to open and let their warm up headline instead. They are deadsky! Round and Round, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?!?!?

On another note: [b]OZZY is back in October to start a 40 show tour with RobZombie!!! Got my pases in the mail this morning, gonna be a blast![/b[

A

by dadspad

They said now you would have the high quality sound without the hassle of vinyl records. The world did not look back.

Now the new generation is not the high quality sound enthusiast we were. They use a laptop, hook up a good set of pc speakers (using the standard on board outputs) and all their music is loaded on the laptop. This is what they listen to.

There will always be a group of sound enthusiats, but they are much smaller group than it used to be. The music industy used to make high(er) quality CDs for Symphony and jazz because they were very influencial groups of buyers. Now look at where the main sales of CDs are at and look where Symphony and jazz sales are. The music industy goes where the money is.

Remember, the original recording masters made should be high quality stuff. It is the manufacuturers that put less quality in the CD from what was available. Again, money!!

by jamesrl

....That convinced me to go CD. I hear it on a very good system and was blown away.

I've done classical recording (DAT Tape to computer for mixing) using the 2 directional mic method - trying to similar what the sound is like from the best seat in the house. I know they don't take the care with the commerical stuff and its a shame.

James

by oz_media

The music industry doesn't follow anything, it leads and completely controls what kids listen to, what kids buy and what kids follow.

Just look at Enrique Iglasias, if it weren't for market saturation do you think he would have caused such a teen frenzy? Not bloody likely! But kids were force fed Enrique and he became a teen mainstream for a while.

As for CD quality, tha manufacturers are the recording industry giants they own the whole lot, lock stock and barrel and there' sno escape for North American artists or listeners.

by oz_media

Perhaps a bad exmaple, I don't know but I am sure they cost more than a tube amp from the 70's or even a decent Marantz from the 80's.

I mean these amps are SO cheap and sound SO much better than today's products. Mind you, you have to settle for 2-channel sound, or a quasisplit 4-channel. I'll take that over theater effects in my media room anyday.

by dadspad

[not the custom jobs, you can always buy the best] is the speaker hookups. It is nice to be able to directly hook a subwoofer into the receiver.

What nobody seems to be remembering is that the old analog components varied in frequency range, and it was a big deal in those days. There was hundreds of tests run in magazines on the stereo components. Of course, the ones mentioned here were among the better tested models. They also are, mostly, still beyond what I can afford, over $300.

Something else worth remembering is the crossovers were in the speakers, now they are in the receivers. These were also tested and reviewed a lot in magazines. The speakers made to use with these older components seem to be about the same price as the components. Try Oakstreet and see the prices of the older speakers.

http://www.oaktreeent.com/Stereo_Speakers.htm

Just make sure you have the room to put these pieces of furniture. :D

by oz_media

While you are right in that the receiver now separates the channels, this is a result of the DVD or original recording, 5.1 or 7.1 for example.

The speakers still have crossovers, though much lower aquality than before and not very accurately tuned, so you end up with 'one note' bass or midrange. There's nothing more annoying than hearing a subwoofer try to recreate mids or a midrange driver that doesn't pick up the top end of a bass kick drum.

There simply is no comparisson to good equipment, my theory is if you can't buy a top of the line Cambridge (or equivalent amp) and high end speakers, go and buy a two channel vintage system. The entire system can cost you half of what a new receiver costs and you will be FAR mroe impressed with quality 2-channel than poor quality 5.1 surround.

When it comes to the sub, I like to play in and out of phase before finding the best match. In this case, you can biwire it to a 2-channel amp without any problems and it will sound great. Note also that older amps actually USE current(Amperage), therefore by double loading a speaker pair, you don't take a 100W and turnit into 50. INa decent amp they will drive a lot more power with less resistance.

ex. A 50W HK amp (8 ohms) will put out about 85W into 6 ohms or over 120 into 4 ohms. The more you load it, the better it drives. :)

by jdclyde

Back in the 80's I got a little Peavey RAGE amp with my first guitar. Nothing to write home to mom about, but a nice little practice amp that is very portable. ( great for when I worked 3rd shift at a gas station ).

About 8 years ago, I bought my boys their first guitar, a little ibanez (so they would leave mine alone!) and a new rage.

Now that they are old enough to know more about it, they prefer the sound to my old amp over their much newer one.

Newer doesn't make better. B-)

by dadspad

I do not have any software to unpak it.

I will have to check what the model is. I think I still have the original manual, it also came with a one page (two sided) laminated guide. There were, at least, two model 5000, the later one had an electronic update. This one is the earlier model.

I obtained this model used from my supervisor in the service (this should date me :) ) he was going back to Vietnam and would buy an newer model. Knowing how much I liked his system and his family, he sold it to me very reasonably.

I want to set it up in the bedroom to work with the tv/dvd there.

by av .

They were really good PC speakers. I bought them with my PC back in 1994 and they had great quality.

On my new system, I have the Logitech 5.1 surround sound speakers and they are actually really good and pretty inexpensive. I think I paid about $60 for them and I'm impressed. I'm not into heavy metal, but I love jazz and some classical music and they are very good for that.

My car has Monsoon speakers. I've never seen them for a PC, but they are great in a car stereo. I'm not really a heavy metal person, but they definitely make my drive to work enjoyable. I can understand why heavy metal people would love them because they have an outstanding base.

AV

by oz_media

Not to discount your comments but because I am into Heavy Metal and have worked in the industry, I am not what you would call a 'heavy metal' person.

On my drive in today, I listened to Bruckner's 5th, but also a little Ozzy and some Van Halen.

I like to mix it up a bit too.

In fact I am just about to throw on a Chesky jazz compilation disk, very dry.

But I appreciate your comments and you have a point why many woul dlike bottom end. Muself, I prefer no colour. The more transparent the better.

by av .

My mistake, I always thought you were mostly into heavy metal music.

I'm hooked on my XM radio, so I don't really do lots of downloads, but the Chesky site looks like they have alot of good stuff to offer. I love Rachmaninoff but also Zero 7 and Brazilian jazz, like Bebel Gilberto. One of my favorite albums is from Chick Corea and Return to Forever - Crystal Silence with Flora Purim. Weather Report - Heavy Weather is also one of my favorites. Oldies but goodies to me.

I haven't heard Bruckner's 5th but I'm gonna give it a listen.

I'm not sure I totally understand your last sentence, though.

AV

by dadspad

I bought two Yamaha HTR5960 receivers to work with TV, DVD, CD and am very satisfied with it. I bought it online for about the same as I could for a vintage Marantz receiver.

I used my Sansui 5000 receiver for many years as a primary sound source. I have mentioned elswhere here how I obtained it. The speakers I have with it are close to 4 ohms. I had to make sure the kids did not turn the sound up to where the speakers blew or destroyed. :) I remember using headphones until I could buy speakers.

by oz_media

Speaker tones are referred to in many ways, boxy, transparent, coloured, sibilant, brassy etc.

Colour: Most low to mid end (and even some supposed high end products like Bose) have coluration to them. What goes in is not what comes out. You know how some people say "it's a good rock speaker", or "it's a good classical speaker" this refers to the colouration or deficiencies of the speakers drivers and cabinet/crossover engineering. Speaker excursion (travel) is supposed to stop dead between producing sounds, this offers clarity and detail to the music as was intended when recorded. There are virtually no speakers under $1000.00 that don't have colouration, save but a few like RBH, SOME high end Polk, Rockford FOsgate's high end etc. Some people seek colouration, a nice bassy speaker is often referred to as warm, but it isn't really a warm tone but the inablity of the woofer to cancel resonance after recreating a sound.

Transparency, is the opposite of colour. Studio Monitors, high end headphones (AKG, Sennheiser) have virtually no colour. The sound that comes out is identical to the source, as it was intended by the musician. JAxx and Classical are two types of music that most definitely sound best uncoloured. Whereas many people prefer muddy borrom end for rock and pop, as that's what system in the club sounds like too.

TO get a really good example of what speaker tones should be, how clarity, detail,transparncy, presence etc all play out or are supposd to play out, pick up (or download) Chesky's Ultimate Demonstration Disk, it was made back in the 80's I used it back then for Harman Kardon, Paradigm and Mission demo's.

Bruckner's 5th is a great example of cello and french horn, resonance that is carefully contained and reproduced, it sounds phenominal on the right system, but still sounds great on just about anything else.

by jamesrl

I mentioned in another thread about the systems at Epcot in 97. They had a $2000 system and a $10,000 system and a blind listening setup. Most people preferred the cheaper system as it was "warmer". The speakers on the $10,000 system were big electostatics - amazing clarity and transparency.

The demo piece? Music from the movie "Glory", http://www.amazon.ca/Glory-Soundtrack/dp/B000000WH5 I swear you could hear the breaths of the Harlem Boys Choir clear as a bell.

It was the perfect piece - most classical can demonstrate a wider dynamic range than the average piece (and I said average) of rock.

I sing classical so I tend to favour composers who write some choral music - Bach, Mozart, Bethoven, Handel, Vivaldi, Haydn etc., though I listen to more than just choral.

James

by oz_media

PEesant ears, I know sounds too stuck up but its a generalization for those with no appreciation of true tone. Kind like people who think steak is the only worhwhile meat and that veal is icky. Those thta only eat north American foods and would never try something like indian, or greek etc. These are peasant pallets, not that the people are peasants but their pallet is common.

That out of the way, the Ultimate Demo disk by Chesky has a couple of really cool tracks you'd like, if you ain't heard em yet.

Livingston Taylor - Grandma's Hands (demonstrates midrange purity, with the emphasis on the finger snaps that sound like skin on skin, not clicks).
Rebeca Pidgeon - Spanish Harlem
(demonstrates high resolution, with a sax playing 10' from a suspended mike behind a beathy aria)

You'd love it, well worth at least downloading a flac file of it. Some of the jazz pieces are a bit dry for me but the sonic quality is simply stunning.

As always, thanks for posting your comments James.

by av .

You just taught me something really good about speakers - thanks. :^0

But I do have another question for you. Suppose I have bassy speakers. Can I lessen the bass with an equalizer and achieve less colouration? In other words, can I compensate for a speaker's deficiency by doing that or do I still have a bassy speaker that isn't capable of transparency no matter what I do?

The reason I ask this is because I usually always mute the bass, to some degree, on my speakers. It sounds like it makes a difference to me, but knowing what I do now, do I still have an inferior sound, as far as transparency goes?

Peasant ears? Thats funny, Oz. I know it was in the other post, but it sounds like a stew made from the ears of the little people that didn't pay their taxes back in medieval times. :^0

AV

by oz_media

Peasant ears, nice analogy! Kinda like that old phrase, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Keeping THAT in mind, it depends if your speakers are a sows ear, no offense intended of course. :D

Actually, by adjusting equalization, that is colouration to compensate for your drivers lack of ablity.

The other consideration is placement. Placement with many speakers is 100% of the sound. Take Bose, for example, while an OKAY speaker system they require a heap of tweaking to get set up just right and in most cases will never perform to the standards of the soundroom you buy them in. I've seen Bose vendors that have had very expensive soundrooms especially built for Bose. Get them home and it's a different story.

It's so hard to put into a single post, you should do some web research into placement. To get it just right, people go to extreme, costly lengths. Beginning with a simple step of 'walking the room', where you have someone walk around teh room reading a book outloud. By listening to where the persons voice fades in and out, you can determine a pretty good listening position, right up to using high end test mics and sin waves.

Here's a good place to start:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

To answer your question more directly, you can colour a speaker to make it sound pleasing to your ears, after all that's all that REALLY matters, no matter how cheap or high end they are. It's all up to the listener, if you can enjoy a pair of $200.00 speakers, that's what really matters.

Myself, I don't want to be able to point out a speaker when I have my eyes closed. I want the image to be detailed and the soundstage to be immense.

I was listening to a Chesky pieve on a set of RBH Signature Series speakers, the concet was to have the saxaphone sound as if it was 10' from the mike (which it ws when recorded) the vocals to be front and center and the stand up bass a few feet to the right of the off center drums.

Listening to teh piece with eyes closed, you can literally picture the placementon the stage with no effort at all, just as if you were watching it live. I couldn't determine exactly where the speakers were because the sound was outside of the cabinets, if you can picture qhat I mean.

Anyway, I could go on all day about this stuff but don't want to bore you. Feel free to post back, but I have a really bad habit of droning on and losing focus of the subject so I'll sit down for a bit now. :)

by hal 9000

First you need to understand some Theory but I'll keep it Simple.

Put Simply sound travels in 1 of 2 ways from any Speaker Enclosure. Bass tends to be non-directional and try to make a sphere around the Bass Driver of the Speaker while the other frequencies tend to be Directional.

So it's possible to have lots of Bass and still not hear it depending on what's in the way to absorb it before you hear it or not to reflect it from it's originating point. When it comes to the other Frequencies these tend to be where the Speaker is aimed so you have a better chance of hearing these. Now that's the theory but the practise is something different again as other things come into play and you get reflection of Sound by stray things like Walls, Floors and the like though this reflection also can be altered between each speaker. The most common way this happens is to have a window behind one speaker which doesn't reflect the same amount of sound that a solid wall would.

While OZ told you to walk the room and listen this is only of any use if there is nothing in the room which is ideal for a listening room but if you are looking at a house this isn't piratical as most people want things like Sofa's, chairs and other things between them and their speaker enclosures. What you are trying to achieve here is to get a pleasant listening experience that you like personally. So you alter the sound output to suit your own tastes. If you like Bass you turn it up or if you like Top End you turn that up and lower the Bass.

The thing that you need to be aware of is that other things in the room affect the sound as well so if you are like my wife who constantly moves furniture around you will never have a listening room that you can live in as she likes to move the Sofa's around and these absorb Bass quite a lot. If you have the opportunity to listen to the same setup in the same room with different furnishings you will immediately notice the difference even with very bottom range equipment the most obvious thing will be a reduction in Bass from the same setup.

The other thing that you need to keep in mind is that the Speakers Enclosures themselves need to be firmly mounted so that they do not create any unwanted noise that they where not designed to make. So they need to be solidly mounted on something and aimed at your preferred listening area. When you have them setup to suit what you desire you can then start to change the Settings on the different frequencies. Depending on what you have available to alter you can change a Knob that moves from Bass to Treble or if you have a Graphic Equaliser you can start changing the Bass settings to get the sound that you like personally. After you get this right you can then proceed to move through the different frequency ranges and adjust as you see fit till you get to the end of your available adjustments.

Now you have your Room setup but the moment that you move anything the sound will change and you'll need to reset the room again though provided that no major changes are made the need to change settings to suit your listening needs need not be overly great.

Depending on the floor type you may get some problems being added to the sound from there. Wooden Floors are notorious for doing this and in the old days could cause a Needle to skip on a Record though today Vinyl is not used much so that very obvious problem doesn't raise it's head much now. The main thing that you will hear is the floor moving and resonating at a different level to the Speaker Enclosures so you get some distortion present. Distortion in this form is any stray resonance that is caused by the building materials and provided that you have sufficient adjustments you can tune out the problem areas when you hear them. This is generally achieved by lowering the amount of Bass present as it causes a lot of things to rattle about.

Glass in Windows can also cause this to happen behind Speaker Enclosures and the only real solution here is to move the Enclosures to prevent this from happening when you hear it occurring.

Anything that is between you and the speakers can cause a drop off in sound levels from one enclosure that requires balancing out to overcome.

Ideally you should have a decent distance between speakers Enclosures to achieve what is called Stereo Separation which is effectively allowing the sounds to appear to originate from different places around the front of the room. This is easier to pick up with some Orchestral Recordings but you first need to make sure that they where recorded in such a manner that allows the sound to appear to be originating from different places. Generally a minimum of 10 feet between speaker enclosures while at the same height will do, closer runs the risk of not allowing the separation to be as noticeable if at all and it's really not a good idea to have the speaker enclosures side by side. OZ put it correctly when he said that when you close your eyes you should be able to hear the different sounds coming form different areas, unfortunately with quite a lot of the new recordings this isn't taken into account and when the piece is recorded the different instruments are sat in front of a Mic and recorded then all thrown together and there is no distinct sound difference between different instruments. Ideally the Bass Instruments should appear to be originating from a point towards a point about midway between the speaker enclosures depending on how the recording was made and the other instruments that produce a higher frequency sound should appear to be scattered around the front of the room. With a good recording you should be able to hear the individual instruments and that goes down to the different instruments in the same group. So ideally if there are 3 violins you should not only hear the 3 Violins but they should appear to be coming from slightly different places when you listen to the recording. The majority of the Bass sounds should appear to originate from a point midway between the speakers and at the same height as the speaker enclosures while the individual instruments can come from different places.

This is what OZ was meaning when he posted this thread the current generation of recordings are no where near as good as the older ones used to be and are not recorded correctly with an idea to recreate the original sound in concert.

If you want to go the whole hog you can use some back speakers to [b]Fill In[/b] the sound but these do not need to be loud or move a lot of air they are only there to enhance the front enclosures and fill in any holes that are caused by the room that you are listening in. If you use Back Speakers they do not need to have very low end response but a good high end wouldn't hurt provided that they are not driven too hard and made loud. Back Speakers should only ever enhance the front speakers unless you are listening to sound effects as when at a concert you will never find any musicians behind you while you are facing the stage. Surround Sound or Quadraphonic Sound is better suited to Movies or other such Sound Effects where the attempt to create a different situation is occurring.

The real problem with attempting to Uncolour Speakers is that you don't actually know what the original recording actually should sound like and while it is possible to produce a reasonable copy of the original sound unless you spend a lot of money it's not possible and even then the individual may not like the sound and then alter it to suit their own tastes. So over all I would say that it's better to setup things as you like them than attempt to alter things to what you think that they should be. Though if you get a chance to grab a copy of any [b]Reference Recording[/b] I would suggest that you grab it and use it to setup what you like. Not that it's necessarily better just easier to do things this way.

I hope that's not too confusing.

Col

by oz_media

Of course what we have been describing here is mainly 2-channel or, as noted, quad sound. Ideal placement for 2-channel, almost regardless of the room, is about 7' apart, at least 15" out from the wall, with front channels, toed in slightly so that the points between tweeters meet at the listening position,

Today's movies are usually 5.1 or 7.1, and there's been some great ones. As much as I dislike Sly Stallone, cliffhanger has a great test for surround and timber. (AV, timber matching is generall when all speakers use identical drivers or at least are tuned to sound identical. This way when a voice moves across the soundstage, each speaker, Left, Center then Right, the tone of the voice should not change, offering a truly life like experience.

As Colin noted, furniture placement is critical, I would always build my room around the stereo, luxuries of being single.;)

TIPS FOR YOUR SUBWOOFER: First off, as noted, subwoofer placement is not really critical, as long as the frequencies are trulu subsonic (generally anything below 40Hz). The sound isn't heard, but felt. It doesn't matter where the rumble and boom originates from though. But furniture can add a boominess that takes away or adds to the resonance.

I usually place a sub up front, just inside my left speaker for the cleanest result.

Something important to check: [b]Phase[/b] Your subwoofer can be hooked up in two ways, in or out of phase. This simply means, in hase is when the positive wire runs from positive on the amp to positive of the speaker and negative to negative. In phase provides deeper bass notes and may cause boominess.

Playing out of phase, positive to negative etc. Will allow the speaker to play more of a full range. What happens is that the subwoofer and other channels move at opposite times. So when the front channel is moving out, the sub is moving in and so on.
This causes many low frequencies to effectively cancel one another out and results in less bass.

Playing with subwoofer phasing is just another step in setting up your room to match the furniture.

Anyhow, if you're still following this thread I hope you've had some ideas to test. If not, oh well, it wouldn't be the first time Col and I have ended up blabbing together to nobody. :D

by av .

I thought it was probably one of his better movies due to the special effects, but looking back, I never noticed the sound to be honest with you.

When you talk about Phase, I'm definitely an out of phase person as I don't want to blow out the windows of my house with the bass.

I'd like to ask you to read the post I made to Col and tell me if you think I can do what I want to without mortgaging my house. I think what I want to do will work, but after reading the posts that both of you made, and knowing what I do now, it might not have the sound quality I'm looking for in a home stereo.

Much appreciated, OZ.

AV

by hal 9000

Most of the cheaper systems sold by the makers have a lot of time spent with a sound engineer to get the sound right I know that this sounds a bit strange but if the makers where to offer something that was offencive to the majority of people they wouldn't sell much of that product so in a effort to get more sales the makers engineer a sound that they wish to push and then flood the market with that product.

With Bottom of the Range Product they engineer the sound that is produced and with the Top of the Range they spend a lot of time attempting to prevent any colouring of the sound by the equipment used to reproduce the sound. With the cheaper stuff they make it sound nice and as such attempting to alter that is an uphill battle.

Col

by av .

You really raise a good point about the affects of furniture and wood floors (another thing I never thought about). Now that you brought it up, I'm going to have to rearrange my living room. Hubby will be pleased, I'm sure. Come to think of it, I don't know if I even like my furniture anymore. It doesn't work with the speakers. :^0

Seriously, I always thought surround sound or quadraphonic sound would be a great system for both movies and stereo. My living room is not that big, about 14 x 24. What I've been trying to do is eliminate my stereo and use my PC in its place. I have a beefed up HP Media Center PC and can play my TV through the PC speakers, Logitech 5.1 surround sound, for movies. My PC also plays satellite radio, and it sounds great, but when I move the speakers into the living room and out of my smaller office (10x12), they may not have the "oomph" factor. I don't know if they will be enough.

I do have a real stereo too, a Sony, with surround sound speakers of its own (one can never have enough speakers), but its not impressive. It doesn't have separate components.

I'm determined to make the PC the center of my house. Do you think I can fill in or enhance the sound with better speakers through my PC or its not possible to use higher quality speakers with a PC.

Feel free to tell me if I'm nuts.

AV :^0

by hal 9000

Late one night with Gunshots while he was playing Quake. :D

Apparently he had borrowed some of my sound gear hooked it up to the Output of the Computer and was then feeding the Stereo Speakers from the Power Amp. Apparently it sounded really good and very life like according to the Police at least. But I personally think that the sound being reflected from the Brick side of the house next door may have had something to do with the sound. :^0

I'll admit I would have loved to see it particularly as the Cops would dive for cover when ever he shot something and screamed out [b]Die You Bastard.[/b] But that is more an exception to what can be done and personally I think that it was a Fluke that was brought about by the placement of the Speaker Enclosures, the reflecting surfaces around and other things like that which allowed a fairly long range of sound to be projected in open air or at least what passes for open air in a city on a main road. :D

As for High Quality Sound this relies on moving a lot of Air. Any Speaker is just an Air Pump so the more that it can move the better that it will be for Bass at least. When it comes to the Upper Frequencies the size of the speaker isn't quite so important but the quality of it is. I was never a lover of the Bose Speakers as I still consider them second rate and tinny but that's just me and I know a lot of people who brought them and like them as well.

The main problem with all Surround Sound/Computer Speakers is that they are small normally have a limited range of drivers mounted in them, are not stiff enough in the cases to prevent distortion at higher volumes so they are unable to provide a Full Sound which I like but provided that you like the sound things will be sufficient. After all I accept that not many people are willing to attempt to find the places to stand some AR 9 Enclosures that weigh in excess of 150 pounds each but these have 2 Bass Drivers firing sideways to the front and then a Lower Mid, Mid and Upper Mid and then a Tweeter so these are 4 way speakers with 5 drivers and use the old model of having at least 1 pound of Magnetic per inch of Bass Driver and are mounted in Enclosed cabinets that are designed for the drivers. Most of the Surround Sound Speakers are of the vented type which give the impression of moving more air than they actually do as the air is forced out or sucked in the vent which gives a fuller sound supposedly. The down side is that the more you drive the drivers the more likely they are to distort because the either Bottom or Top out and you get a clicking sound as the Voice Coil hits the end of it's travel and is forced to stop. This mostly happens with Bass Drivers but all Drivers are affected by this effect so you need to keep the volume down so that the speakers do not suffer from this.

Anyway provided that you like the sound that's all that is important but personally I haven't seen any of the popular Surround Sound Enclosures that have big enough Bass Drivers in the Centre Wolfer let alone the Satellite Speakers for my liking. Techno is good for showing the limits of speakers particularly Bass Drivers as the sound drives the speakers from Bottoming to Topping out and eventually destroys the Voice Coils of the drivers if allowed to continue without intervention. My son managed to destroy the Bass Drivers in all my AR Enclosures playing that stuff but to be fair the neighbours 3 miles away liked the sound even if I did try to kill him the next time that I tried to listen to my favourite music. But I failed and he's still alive. :(

About the only option I can offer is to Suck it and See, If you like the sound it works if you don't you can always feed a Amp and then some Speakers to make the sound more to your liking.

Col

by oz_media

Having worked in both analogue and digital studio settings, I can tell you that 'decent' PC is achievable. You'll never get real hi-fidelity surround, but most people can obain a decent enough sound to be happy.

Despite your onboard sound card, I would still recommend buying a better sound card (I always use an external due to output and input ports, tone controls etc.), I used to use a Hercules Muse 5.1 a few years ago and it literally rocked.

Sound cards in OEM computers, such as your HP, will generally offer a 44kHz sampling rate, which is actiually not bad for a built-in card at all. There are many midpriced cards that offer 192kHz sampling rate, I usually go with an external card. I find external cards are a little more flexible, some offer high power output throungh built-in amps also. The other benefit is external cards often offer tone controls, great for enhancing smaller speakers.

If you really want to have fun with it, look into some in-wall speakers, both RBH Sound and Soundcraft make good in-wall products (though I lean strongly to the RBH for value for money and higher overall quality).
Grills can be painted to match the wall/ceiling also. The benefit to 'decent' in-wall speakers is lower cost while getting the same drivers and crossovers, you just don't have to pay for the cabinet. But that's if you want to go all out.

You should look around at quite a few options for speakers for the PC, it's worth investing money in them and getting a worthwhile product, listen to them for a whil in store, play what YOU listen to, not the sales rep. (I always tote sampler CD's with me).

As Colin noted, Bose, it is all about positioning and the perfect room. Without both of those exactly bang on, you will end up with a boxy sounding system. Bose is great for marketing genius, the specs are all overblown and the prudct is nowhere near what it used to be, in fact FAR too expensive for what it is, just as POlk is too. Wihle I prefer Polk to Bose, Polk is also famous for over exagerrated specs, and they require exact placement to sound optimal. JBL, RBH and Altec Lansing are far mroe fogiving of the room and placement, as they project the sound image about a foot in front of the faces, therefore creating a mreo blended soundstage right from the get go. (Note: RBH used to be the OEM manufacturer/designer for JBL...and MacIntosh, Harman, Rockford Fosgate and many other high end speaker lines).

For a great PC sound card explanation, visit: http://techreport.com/articles.x/4577/1
It's a bit old but is a great explanation for you.
They liked the Hercules too (back then), for under $300.00

Bottom line is to have fun and enjoy your sound, no matter how much or how little you pay. In the end, it is YOUR ear that matters, nothing else.

[b][i]"if music be the food of love...play on" - W.Shakespeare[/i][/b]

by av .

Sounds like your son is a real challenge at times. Its just amazing what kids can come up with. I hope the cops thought it was funny, but sometimes they don't have such a good sense of humor.

I never thought about using an amp with speakers on my PC, but it could be a good option for me if the surround sound speakers I have aren't enough for a bigger room. After reading what you said about surround sound speakers, I don't know if they will be enough. Even if they did initially sound decent, I'd probably blow them out.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff to me, Col. It was very informative.

AV

by av .

Maybe not the best for what I want to do, but I have a Sound Blaster Audigy 4 card. I always go for separate components instead of onboard. I'm not sure what the specs are on the card, but I'm going to look into that. It sounds great for what its doing now - home office. For a home stereo, maybe not enough. I never knew some sound cards came with built-in amps!

I like the idea of in-wall speakers. Its really a much cleaner look. I've never been a fan of how stereo speakers look. They just never fit in with the decor.

Well I think you and Col have turned me into an (almost) audiophile. I'm going to check out some new speakers and take your advice when I go shopping. I'll bring my own CD. That is very slick, Oz.

Thanks so much for all your great information.

AV :^0

by oz_media

in the world of PC sound cards, the Audigy 4 is a pretty decent card. It is actually an Audigy2 chip with a little tweaking but offers better Digital to Audio Conversion.

Your sound card also has optical outputs, these can be connected to a hometheater receivers optical inputs. So if you wanted to really play with your sound, you could get a decent HT receiver and speakers of your choosing, then use your PC to output your audio into true 7.1 surround.

There's a lot of grey area though, whether to use digital out or analogue, because converting within the card creates a lot of noise and digital out can be converted through a receiver, blah blah blah....

Won't go there, it is endless.

Simply put you have two viable options,
1) Get some upper end PC speakers and use teh PC sound card to send a simulated 7.1 to them. Not bad at all and convincing enough for most people to enjoy. Benefit is the very low cost, invest a few hundred ingood speakers and you're done.

2) Buy a home theater receiver and quality home theater speakers. Use the sound cards optical output to deliver the signal to your receiver and speakers. Can be quite expensive for high end equipment. Can be tricky to 'dial in', in the case of whether to use digital or analogue out to the receiver. Tweaking and fussing required. Time and money.

I'd go for option 1, buy some decent speakers and have at 'er. The room should be sufficiently filled with a fair quality PC surround system.

Here's a few choices. (these are just eprsonal picks, everyone has a different ear of course).

For $529.00 CDA (hey the dollar is almost at par now!!) you can get a Logitech THX, top end with 6 source inputs. Connect your MP3 player, Sat radio or whatever as well as your PC.
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=ca,en

They also have a Z5300 and the G51 at lower price points. These will fill your room and you will be quite amazed at the performance. Make sure you don't overdo the sub volume though (as 99% of listeners do), it will destroy the entire sound image.

If you want to spend some dough and get really high end, look at NHT, they can get you set up for a little under 2K..if you are clinically insane of course. ;)

My best recommendation would be in the middle though, Altec Lansing makes an awesome pacjage of high end speakers for around $250.00. They will do more than please your ears, they will leave you wondering how they pack all that sound in the little boxes. Check out the FX5051, I think it offers the best value for money and sounds just fantastic!

Have fun with it though, don't spend more than you want and don't settle for less. Happy shopping! Let us know what you end up with.

by michael jay

with the release of the new Eagles album, it is called "Long Road Out Of Eden". Sound quality is excellent and the content is just as great, somewhat political but then it is the Eagles and that is what you should expect.

Give it a listen, I do think that you will like it.

by oz_media

The Eagles are one of the exceptions when it comes to quality recordings. The new High res DVD for When Hell Freezes over and Farewell have incredible audio tracks, another great demo disk for that live music, outdoorsy sound.

I will download some of the new disk, it does look cool (from theri site). Don't worry, if I like it I'll buy a copy, MP3's don't cut it for me when the real disk is available.

This discussion is closed to new replies.