Stop Internet Piracy! Network Admins Should Help

The music industry has been told this also, stop whingeing and be more creative at your approach to entice people to not steal and to actually buy your product.

Also just like the politicians (fuddy duddy):

"I can't think of any real way to rescue it though, nor do I want to particularly. Piracy would just be the start." (Tony Hopkinson, 03/18/05)

Power to youth!

I totally agree with you! I am a student and have been since grade one. I am now in my third year of university study. Without all these free trials and free student versions (that Microsoft mainly offers) I would never have joined this industry and have become such an active digital media creator. I would still be scratching my head and wondering how people made all those cool graphics and software. Young people should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to free software as they are the inexperienced ones and companies would benefit from getting them into their software. It is all about corporate branding, get em hooked while they are young. Young people learn faster, absorb information like a sponge, and should be given extra exposure to software instead of locking it all away for only experienced users to play with.

Mainly it is individuals who steal software, which isn?t a big issue for the software industry as their main targets are big companies. Now if companies steal software that is a huge issue. I am not protecting criminals but as for the music industry, it is the individuals who are stealing the music, and this is why it is such a huge issue in the music industry.

P2P software, your network connection, the WEB and the internet are all tools/services that can be used for perfectly valid legal activity. Demonizing one part of the community is just totally counter productive. Those in favour of tighter controls point out a bad guy, those not a good one. That's becuase the method you are proposing to exert control impacts everyone not just the criminals.
I'm sure your idea could be made fairly non instrusive, but Kazaa for instance is sharing 100s of millions of files. Then there are the Gnutella protocols, then eMule. All a P2P network needs to take off is a number of people sharing 'valuable' content and word of mouth.
On top of that there's the scam warez sites, the FTP boys and dialups.

Personally I don't believe net based piracy of software or music is any where near as big a problem as some would have us believe. It's the people pressing Media we need to go after.

I think it's being highlighted as a problem so certain vested interests can achieve a greater control of the net so they can leverage in their business strategy. As far as I'm concerned they can all F'off and die, they've got too much control as it is.

The scheme you are proposing would 'attack' me. It would be checking to see if I was a criminal. I would be paying to prove that I wasn't a criminal.
The point you continually seem to miss, is there is more than one society involved, more than one law.
I exist in a British society with a certian set of national, european, and international laws. You do not. Now because our societies have simuilar roots there is a lot of commonality, but there are radically different viewpoints within our societies as to what social aspects our laws should express, how they should be enforced etc.
So talking about THE LAW as though there was only one, is naive in the extreme, asuming that only your law is valid is worse than that.
Copyright is not enforced in China, so I ring up a chinese ISP, send them some nice foriegn exchange, happy chinese, happy me , sad you.
Deal with that before you attempt to impose local controls which will only harm me and not those who persist with illegal activity.

No Admin (or) ISP in my opinion wants to be responsible for policing traffic. And the law suits that would likely follow.

Your comment:

"All I want is for ISPs to shift their enormous amount of egotistical power onto government bodies and the police."

Should read:

It is up to the Government and their enormous amount of egotistical power to interpret what is illegal internet traffic & ennact a law that ISP's should act upon.

One To One
Each connection is an individual one. I know what your are saying but as far as I'm concerned I'd rather have the crime, than give someone the 'right' to invade my privacy, to prove that I am not a criminal.

I want to hold a boycott - All ISPs please advise your customers that the internet will shutdown on the 20th of March just because we want to. Then unplug your servers and cables and let the people run free of technology in a world free from piracy. Hooray says all the little fairies, let?s play in the fields.

Sorry about that, it is mid-night and I am tired of fighting?

But seriously, I don?t want control, I want co-operation (maybe a little utopian for this world). But as I have said, we need governance; the internet is in our society as much as we want to hold it as another dimension way back in the corner of our psyche.

At least for now.....UNLESS your reproducing their work and selling it.....they use the words 'casual sharing'.

.

If your using P2P to 'share' music & software you're doing two things:

1 - Microsoft (recently) refers to this 'casual sharing'

2 - The law reffers to it as Piracy or Fraud

I'm a member of CAAST (Canada) & no single person or entity has ever been charged with 'theft' or stealing.

If file swappers are advertising illegal content, then the original copyright owner needs to work with law enforcement to stop it.

You make it seem like this illegal stuff is pretty easy to find. If it is easy to find it, then there is no need to burden ISPs with protecting someone else's intellectual property.

And to have law enforcement searching all user data without probable cause is not the answer, either.

I'm sure that it sucks to have your property stolen; however, if you are writing software that doesn't have adequate safeguards against piracy (like strict activation policies), I'm not sure why the ISPs should be asked to stop it.

but don't feel constrained to answer immediately, have some sleep, then answer.
How many ISPs could you conveniently sign up with ?
How would you get all of them to agree to operate your scheme. It's not just a question of getting an ISP to co-operate with the government or the police, they would have to co-operate with each other. Very problematic since one company not agreeing to co-operate would gain a massive commercial advantage in not doing so. In other words you would have to force them to co-operate.
Not an easy conundrum to solve.

How do you get all ISP?s to co-operate? What thing in society could control this co-operation and standardisation of legislation that governs the operation of ISPs and communications providers?

Ok, maybe I gave it away to early - the government or the United Nations springs to mind, or maybe the IEEE.

Allthough your minds in the right place....no ISP is going to invest time, effort & $$$ required to make this work (IMO), until or unless the Government forces it upon them.

ISP are a service provider.........it is NOT their role to be the Judge & Jury of the traffic going through their pipes.

Most ISP's I know only invest funding and ressources towards the due dilligence required to ensure a (reasonably) virus free environment for it's customers.

As has been said before - The phone company can't & won't invest $$ to stop prank callers and 'sales' reps nor will an ISP do the same to stop P2P or other unethical activity.

The Law, Justice & Ethics are not the same thing.

You're leaving out a very important aspect of criminal investigations (at least in the U.S.): probable cause.

Law enforcement can't (and shouldn't be able to) search you or your house (or your computer) without probable cause that a crime has been commited.

What you are suggesting virtually eliminates probable cause and says that the police and ISPs should just be able to scan files at will because someone *might* be trading illegal files.

To put this situation in the offline world, let's say that drug dealers primarily use the highways to traffic illegal drugs. Under your plan, the police, the Department of Transportation (again, a US thing) and maybe even the auto manufacturers would be responsible for searching every car that drives down the road to make sure that no drugs are onboard.

Not the right answer.

I do not rely on the law to protect me. I now protect mummy as well along with my grand children.

Only a half wit would rely solely on law to protect them, it exists to protect society not individuals.

We don't really want to go there in this thread though.

If you are hitting this at an angle of protecting your personal rights, then fair enough, but you should be aware that the biggest threat to your rights, literally and practically are the goverment and the large corporates.
If you don't have any, those in power can do what they want with you and will and are.
However laudable your intentions are, you will be relying on people whose only moral/ethic is to either their shareholders or to themselves.
You want to take power from them fine, you aren't giving them mine though. I or my forefathers took it back and we're keeping it.
Seeing as I'm not currently a creator of copyrighted material you are asking me to give up my freedom to protect your rights. What do I get out of this, apart from the warm fuzzy feeling inside from helping you.
You seem to be arguing from self interest, which is fair enough, that means I trust your motives, but that does not mean your interests are in my interests.

So you should know what I am talking about with no voice and all! I am an undergraduate student and no one cares what I say. lol

cost money to implement. Software vendors who do not use them, or use easily broken ones have made a decision to maximise their profit and pursue piracy by other means that do not directly affect their bottom line.
As for this sort of protection, a while back I needed a program to convert batches of images from one format to another (.ico to gif & .bmp to GIF). No stealing going on it was for a set of help pages for a gui application.
Downloaded a piece of sofware that would do this and more. Limited version started at twenty images at a time, then reduced to one. A very good program, so good in fact I've now purchased it as I need it for another job.
I've no doubt, I could crack it, but it would take some time, I'd get no support, and it was cheap anyway.
Any software protection method that can be cracked with something as simple as a Keygen wasn't worth implementing in the first place, about as much use as a wax padlock.

governmentS. IEEE is called international because it involves more than one nation not all of them. As for the UN, your having a laugh it only has power when all members of the security council agree and they can enforce that agreement. When one member can't get the agreement, they go it alone, seen an instance of that just recently haven't we.

P2P is a search engine; if you use a P2P you have your own folder where you keep files for public access. This hardly seems like private information. Oh wait on a minute, internet pirates only intend their files for other people who encourage internet piracy, NOT THE POLICE. Why the hell should the police look at public files! They have no right!

Warning: My comment may have a little added sarcasm

and no one cares what I say either, except posibly you. Age is immaterial, power it what counts. Take yours back, don't give it away.
Put naggers in your software, get it to send you an email before it will work, don't rely on wahtever bollocks the thief puts in the form, dig around and get as much info as you can, this might be borderline illegal, but theirs nothing to stop you digging out their curent IP and tracing them.
Can you imagine pirating someones software and then getting an email off the 'owner'.
Write service based apps where the functionality is on your machine.
Put some real ip protection on it, just something as simple as a valid sign on to your servern would crucify most of the cheats. Course you need to offer something of value or absorb the cost to get away with this, otherwise your competitors who do not spend time and money on protection will undercut you

Internet Piracy:

Unethical.....but not theft

My solution (Corporate):

Restricted applications via GPO's & employees sign off on AUP's. Management decides on what is considered acceptaple & takes corrective action. IT simply implements a solution that meets their criteria.

Do I believe the Police should enforce the law using the Internet & would I help:

Not sure what you mean...but assuming I were an ISP, the police would have to show up with a Judges order - Curently PIPEDA & SOX says so.
If you read my comments in regards to Corporate solutions....it leads to Management direction.

So for ISP's:

Unless or until the Government passes a law, ISP's - as businesses - will do nothing more than implement due dilligence solutions to support their paying customers. They give them what they want, like any good business would.

Having said that, if an ISP comes to your door with a very 'restricted' Acceptable Use Policy and NO enforcabled law to back it up......would you not go to the next ISP?

As distafull as some file sharing is, IMO the benefits outweight the alternative - Government Regs.

I agree (Some) P2P should be shut down. The only way that would happen is IF all Governments agreed to one law.........good luck with that. (LOL)

ISP's are businesses. They won't do anything that has the potential to hurt their bottom line. That's not wrong.

China however is concentrating on Open Source Software for some reason best known to them and Turbo Linux is very big over there right now. Maybe it is to do with their Communist Ideals and they see MS as all that is bad in the Western World I don't really know about that one.

India on the other hand has been a highly developed country for quite some time now and there is a vast range between the Haves and have not's and you can see both within a few miles of each other. About 20 Years Ago now I took great pleasure in tearing into our Federal Government when they where talking about building a medical cyclotron here in Sydney and just how advanced it was going to be. Well the thing was little better than the 3 that where currently then in use in India and had been in use for over 30 years at that time.

India and Pakistan both have short range ICBMs and a very advanced Nuclear industry as well. Then you can go a few miles from one of the High Tech areas and see absolute poverty, both of those countries are countries of extremes in everything.

God I wish I had some better answers but like the rest of us all I just struggle along and do the best that I can. But again I have been told tonight by MS's automatic service that my volume License copies of Windows are not valid ones. Yet again I'm going to have ring MS and get then to change their records as I still have the receipts for the original 15 License XP Pro installation. They have never wanted me to change the product keys but just ring them up and they change their database so I can again log on and download something that they are advertising for people like me to try and give them feedback on. :D

It's like bashing your head against a brick wall it only feels good once you stop doing it! ;)

Col ]:)

running up a P2P client or an FTP server and looking at filenames being shared. But in order to identify whether theese files were illegal they would have to participate in sharing them. There is a very useful distinction (to lawyers) between saying I have these files on my PC and another person actively agreeing to take a copy.
If I was to publish a list of all the CDs I own and say send me an email and I'll send you them I haven't broken a law until I am proven to have kept a copy of waht I bought or proven never to have bought it in the first place. Both quite difficult to do, unless I'm incredibly stupid.

In other words the law would have to be changed to accept that intent to share constituted probable cause. This is done in terms of say drugs in the UK based on volume, but merely owning them is illegal, so you are already a criminal and they are simply identifying what sort of criminal you are.
As for protection options, there are many, but they are all a cost to the copyright holders, most of the alternatives proposed by copyright holders are cost to the consumer, and that just won't fly in this day and age.

All producers must agree to the cost of protection.
or
all service providers
or
all customers
or
all governments

The day any one of these things happen, I'll do a live web cast of me eating my keyboard.

On the part of the Politicians which is responsible for a lot of the problems. I've been thinking about two of the really big shareware lines which are effectively that with what they are willing to allow end users to use and then sell their products to the Professional side of the industry. Win Zip and Adobe are two very good examples of what is the right way to go they have restricted software freely available to anyone who wants it and then the full versions available to professionals who need this to work so they pay for it and then the end user is able to either unzip or read the outcome of the products use.

Try to find any computer without at the very least Win Zip and Adobe Acrobat Reader installed upon it very few exist and it is the acceptance of this technology that is driving the commercial side of the business to accept it as a "Standard" The PDF file format is almost a universal format for any files that have to be transported and be readable at the other end. Some very few places are attempting to replace PDF files with Word Documents but they just are not as good and in all likely hood will never catch on fully while there is something so much better available at virtually no price to the end user.

The 30 Day trial software I very rarely install as I just don't have the time to waste playing with it in that short space of time however things like XWays Davaro which recover up to 200 K files are a different matter they are cheap really effective and easy to work with. While I personally prefer Win Hex for data recovery it isn't the be all and end all that it is claimed to be and the good old Davaro just runs without a problem and will recover files by name type like all the PDF files on a corrupted HDD or every WPD or whatever other file group that you may have used. It is also possible to recover individual files but you need to know their names and on a big system this usually isn't an option. The price is also cheap enough not to make it worthwhile to bother cracking the product as well. I can remember buying one of the first HDD cloning utilities and for $265.00 AU I got a nice box with a 4 page booklet inside of it and 1 X 1.44 MEG floppy. Now that was hardly good value for money but it did work and it paid for itself within a year or so but for what it was it was over priced to hell. Of course the Unix/Linux alternative was freely available and widely used I actually preferred using these instead of the DOS ones that where so over priced and had such limited functionality. But they did work in DOS so they must have been good.

Personally the only time I've ever used Key Gens or the like is to crack passwords on systems where a staff member has left under less than happy circumstances and has locked everything on the companies computer away behind an unknown password. I had that happen with a file server once and all of the companies data was locked away on the night that the guy left as he shut down the server and when the next day the new guy fired it up no one could gain access to the thing to get it started let alone find out what else had been done to hide critical user files Cracking/Hacking tools for that are a must have in every decent techs tool box but that is where I draw the line for their use.

Even the copy of Davaro that I bought I could have cracked it if I really wanted to but it was way too much effort for little gain I could pay them and have the activation key e-mailed to me within a few hours so why bother hacking the thing it was just unnecessary and in all likely hood I would have wasted more time than the product was worth anyway. But then again I'm lazy as well and can't see the need to do any more work than is absolutely necessary. I believe if I do it right the first time I will not be getting call backs to continue doing some work that I could have done when I was first there. While it is easy money for some I'm of the opinion that I'm paid to perform a service and I'm going to dam well perform it. The same was true when I was punching out code many years ago the apps that we wrote just didn't break maybe we where lucky or maybe the problems where not as big at the time or maybe we just did it right at first and then forgot about it. I've never had the luxury of having unlimited time to waste on doing any job so it was always do it right from the beginning and there will be no problems latter on.

Back in those days we could fit an entire engine management program onto a 64K EPROM and still have a bit of room left over for changes as they became necessary.

Col ]:)

Because I not only listed their Anti Piracy phone number on my Web Page but I also placed a Hyperlink to their e-mail address as well. Apparently the people in sales where unimpressed and wanted it removed even though I had cleared it with the Anti Piracy side of MS.

In that company the Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

But I can not see their logic in that particular case as I'm doing their work for them and making their life that much easier but it makes them unhappy.

What can I say?

Col

To give an example;

I've been involved in many of these investigations & have performed more than I care to count. (Some caused me many sleepless nights -Kiddie Porn)

With regards to 'porn'- The legal sword is very sharp. I learn very quickly that one persons porn is another persons 'art'.

Also, an ISP (as far as I know) CANNOT release information of any sort without a court order.

'House' probably could answer that one on a broader level than myself.

It sounds like your ISP are the same as ours - Let the courts and the police decide what is right and what is wrong.

It's got nothing to do with big companies eating small companies. It has EVERYTHING to do with media control destroying quality and complaining about the loss of sales while looking for an avenues to reclaim that money from. But it is ONLY these massive conglomerates that complain.

The people who work is being shared DON'T care. This issue exists in North America and ONLY due to greed. Everyone complains about protecting the artists income, but the artist DOES have an income, they DO gain from file sharing and most love it. Even EMI, SONY and Sanctuary in Europe don't make a fuss about it, but people ARE buying CD's there, they DO sample music from file sharing and then buy it, in America and Canada they don't though, because the quality is too low.

Believe me, I am FAR from the old man next door complaining about music, I manage and market several heavy metal bands in Europe that USEDE to be stuck in the US or Canadian market, handle Western distribution and market development for a few larger acts that USED to be signed to conglomerate labels before earning enough money to retain their own licence and sell their own product without the "aid" of a label as they are good enough to sell their own product.

My point is that the ARTISTS who make the music, don't think you are stealing from them (Metallica was a legal issue not a monetary one, they USED to actually encourage copying their music with a disclaimer right on the front of their music that said to copy and share it).

The corporations are saying the artists are being ripped off, but they have ALREADY ripped off the artist so the artist is no longer being ripped off, the label is.

This IS about stopping people breaking the law and stealing, the point is ARE they stealing?

YOU take my car and I don't mind, is THAT then stealing? I guess FORD might see it as stealing if I am leasing the car, but they aren't about to start looking for the theif, they will still send ME the bill each month and if I don't mind paying for it, nobody has stolen anything.

I figured the ISP policy in Canada was there IS no policy. Just like everything else, YOU f**k up and bottom line is YOU f*****d up. Nobody else takes the fall nor is expected to.

Mine was the edited version.........your's is the real one LOL

I guess I'm missing the need for some government - ISP solution to this problem. If these files are right out there in the open, then it should be very easy for the intellectual property owner to find the pirates, right? Just do a search, find your files, call the cops! Simple. :)

Why do we need to involve the ISPs if the files are being shared right out there in the open?

I believe the RIAA has only involved ISPs when it has been determined that their IP addresses have been sharing copyrighted material. What's wrong with keeping it that way?

A newsagent over here was taken to court for selling obscene publications.

Apparently a Police Officer walked into his shop looked through the posters and was offended by {WAIT FOR IT} A poster of Michele Angelio's David. :D

Now there is a perfect example of one persons porn being another persons art. :)

Col ]:)

Must have felt inadequate...

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Which protects you more from costs associated with intellectual property disputes?

Hear from an expert - "Microsoft offers the strongest indemnification policy in the industry" (Laura Didio, The Yankee Group)

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TechRepublic put a new ad on my post, notice how they are advertising Windows SERVER System, and what do ISPs and network administrators use? However, please don?t attack me by saying that Linux is better, I was referring to the actual system that is implemented to serve a network of users who could potentially be infringing on intellectual property. The point is that ISPs and network administrators need to take action and implement some sort of screening process into their servers. Why should any network admin implement this software, they are not getting any benefits from doing so as the industry and government are not taking any steps to reward them for their trouble. ISPs already have software that scans your emails and checks for spam or viruses, so why not check for intellectual property infringement. All this needs is what I have been saying throughout my whole post, ISP and network administrator involvement!

All this goes to prove my point that there is money to be made in the industry to protect intellectual property and network administrators are at the root of it all. Of course Microsoft are first to jump in on it. Even though I would have liked to see ISPs benefit first and take some of the profit. Maybe this is why there is a shift toward Linux as Microsoft is actually pioneering the industry in protecting intellectual property, even though they don?t have to. However I think we should bring in standardisations to protect this thing and make the industry fair for all competitors. Otherwise if no action is taken soon Microsoft will realise that they are losing customers due to these unnecessary software components that inhibit system resource and will eventually take them out all together just to compete.

Now we are getting into the database side of things, just as my database lecturer always caries on, ?oh, its one to many, to one to one, you stupid children!!?

Maybe the individual connections are one to one, but that is fine! You should not ease drop on two individuals TCP connection, just like you shouldn?t ease drop on a phone call (unless you have a warrant). My beef is with the people who advertise illegal content to the broader community and share with people they don?t even know or communicate with. I think it is fine to ?lend? your CDs to your mate, but not rip the damn thing and put it in everyone?s letter box in the street.

I was under the impression that the Police and agencies like them acted upon complaints made to them about illegal activities.

If a person is unwilling to make a formal complaint about lets say a House Break in & Robbery the Police can not investigate that particular incident.

Isn't it the duty of the Police and the Associated Agencies to investigate breaches of the Law and not be the LAW?

Just how is reporting a breach of your copy rite doing the work of the Police? That is exactly what you are supposed to do and then the Police can investigate the incident and then pass the results of their investigations onto the proper authorities to bring about the instigation of Criminal Charges. In Britain and Australia that is the job of the Department Of Public Prosecutions and I believe that in most US States it is the job of the District Attorney who look at the evidence provided and then decide if there is enough evidence available that is likely to bring about a successful conviction.

If you are unwilling to make a formal complaint why should any investigation be done? Currently in our cultures there is the presumption of Innocence and not the other way around Guilty until you prove yourself Innocent. If that was the case we wouldn't need a Police Force or anything at all unless it was to hand out Traffic Infringement Notices where you would have to prove your innocence before a Court of Law. The Police or State would not be obliged to offer any evidence as you are already guilty because they say you are. Everything would involve you proving that you are not guilty of the crime that you are charged with.

Maybe that is your idea of a perfect world but it sure as Hell isn't mine. As for the ownership of what you write in actual code I think when you get out in the workplace you will be very disappointed as you will find that you do not own your own work but the Company who employs you to write the code owns it and you have singed any rights to the code over to them when you accept the job. This company will be quite happy to have you writing code for them for as long as you are of some benefit to them and will be only too happy to replace you when there is someone younger and brighter who comes along.

This isn't only restricted to Software development but to every aspect of Human endeavor all of those Engineers who have made fantastic new developments are not given the respect that they deserve or the money that their new product makes it all goes to the company who they work for. The same can be said for any of the Sciences as well. When was the last time you heard of someone who worked for one of the Major Drug Companies be given credit for developing a new revolutionary drug? The truth is that these very gifted people develop these things and the company who they work for derives the long term benefit of their labor and keeps deriving this benefit long after they have not only left that employment but in numerous cases long after they have died.

The fuel injection system which I designed over 30 years ago now has been developed into almost universal usage but I do not get 1 cent in residual income from the production of these units however the company who I worked for at the time is still reaping the benefits of my work.

It makes no difference if it is fair or not if it is right or not the simple fact is I worked there and they own all of the work that I did while I worked there I do not own any of this and even if it couldn't have been designed by someone else and only be me they still paid for me to develop the item and gave me the resources to at the very least produce a prototype for testing and then modified as required until I had eventually produced a reliable system that after many years would be possible to use in everyday vehicles mainly because of the development of the technology and the decrease in the costs involved in producing it at a price that was acceptable to the car makers to buy it.

Even then the company who I worked for doesn't currently derive any financial benefit from my work as they sold off the rights to it to some other company who eventually managed to produce a unit at a price that was acceptable to auto makers and be reliable enough to suit their needs.

The same applies to software although the time between development and production is much shorter, so the only way you could be really worried about your property being stolen and illegally used by unauthorized people is if you where to setup your own company develop the product copy rite it and then put it into production. The simple fact is that people who are capable of making things like this generally lack the funds to even pay the copy rite fee let alone market a production version of whatever it is that they have made. The only problem with illegal use of a companies product is to the company who paid to design and develop it and not the actual person who was responsible for the original design.

Now with software even having a copy rite isn't of any real use as the same thing can be written in different code and do the same thing so it isn't covered by the copy rite that the company that you work for have paid for. Unfortunately Concepts can not be patented if that was possible the Graphic User Interface that is so popular today would still be the Property of Xerox and every computer Operating System and a lot of Software would be paying a fee to the holders of the Patent of the GUI. MS, Apple, Unix or even Linux and the BSD's just do not have a monopoly on the GUI they all currently produce their own and then put them on the market place for the buyer to chose from and whichever sells the best is considered the best by industry.

Just out of curiosity this isn't an Assignment Question is it?

Col ]:)

I work as a newsagent part-time, however I have seen many police (on their lunch hour) in the adult section. I seriously doubt any male police officer would object to being able to purchase naked women, I also doubt a female police officer would mistake an artwork for pornography, and it was also an artwork of a naked man and woman like to pretend looking at naked men is a form of art and not pornography.

Then logically it would follow that you pay to test drive a car before you buy one. Right?

Or pay to listen to a stereo system before shelling out your money to buy it. Right?

Heck pay for everything just in case you just might want to buy one at some point in time. Great idea for business and they wouldn't have to give samples away either or make demonstrator units available you would just pay your money and take one home hoping that you liked what you have brought latter.

Then do the same for Politician's if you want to hear what they are promising to enact if elected you pay for the content of their Papers, TV advertising and everything. Someone has to pay for it so why not make those who what to know what these people are aiming to do pay?

To me this smacks of a Police State where the individual has no rights at all and the powers that be decide what is in your best interests. This would naturally extend to what type of education you got as well because it wouldn't be in your best interests in gaining an Under Grad Diploma and then deciding you didn't really want to work in that field anyway would it? That would be a waste of resources that could be better used on someone who wants to work in that field.

Would you be happy if that was the system that was forced upon you?

I did a PHD in Physics and even though the only physics that I've ever used was in engine design which was not covered by the Mechanical Engineering PHD that I did should I have been prevented in doing that course and paying for it? I also did another PHD in Electronic Engineering so I could make engine management systems which are now commonly known as Fuel Injection Systems which just where not available when I needed them and the main thrust of the PHD that I did in Electronic Engineering was all to do with these Engine Management Systems. But I had to learn a lot of other stuff which at that at the time held no importance to me so should I have been able to do the course with only the things that I had an interest in at the time?

If that had of happened I would not have been able to move from that position to another in a unrelated field and even if I chose never to use any of the knowledge that I gained doing these courses which I paid for what harm would have been done to anyone other than me and my hip pocket?

In todays workforce you are no longer guaranteed a job for life with your first employer unless you are part of a large family business and even then it would be a tenuous position in the hard times if you where not prepared to work for your money. The adverage worker will have several jobs over their lifetime and the highly skilled ones will have more as they move from employer to employer in an attempt to find meaningful work or a happy work place. It all depends on what the individual want to do with their life. This is how it should be and is accepted as "Free Will" by most people in the Western World.

However I did learn one very important thing while at Uni and that was something that Albert Einstein said and was quoted to me when I did Physics it was a direct quote and went something like this "No student should ever be allowed to leave their place of learning without knowing just how very little that they actually know."

What the big thing that I did take away from Uni was that those pieces of paper and all those letters after my name only gave me the right to go out and start learning the practical side of my chosen trade and even then I had to keep learning if only to keep up with advances in the sciences that I had studied. If I had not have done that I couldn't have moved from motor vehicle design and construction to Nuclear Physics and then to the Electronics and eventually IT.

Col ]:)

Just wait until someone like the IEEE implements standardised security into networks; it is already happening with data encryption. Then I would like to be in the front row of watching you eat your keyboard (if you have a Microsoft keyboard be careful not to eat the bugs).

I terms of police participating in file sharing themselves, that would just be called collecting evidence. I mean they already hold drugs in their evidence rooms and if members of the public held drugs in their house that would be illegal.

If you say your going to murder someone, that is the same as saying send me an email and I?ll send you my songs.

But through his 'movie' he did give a different perspective....in that he put fear, marketing & habits together.

I think Australia & Canada are a hell of a lot more laid back. LOL

To be clear, I am NOT saying it's ok to pirate software or music. I AM saying it's not theft.

As I say later on.....in Corporate Environments these issues are (usually) addressed by Management & Admins.

As to ISP's, it is highly doubtfull that they would take on this 'role.'

If someone stole your purse or your handbag the police would charge that person with theft. This is the same as intellectual property, the police need to be more vigilant and people should not have to police themselves, we need a mutual body.

But do a Goggle Search of the Southpourt Magistrates Courts Actions Queensland AU about 5 -6 years ago. You'll find the record there of the incident.

Col ]:)

Would be that first the theft has to be reported, if it isn't the Police can do nothing about it as they know nothing about the theft even if they saw it happen unless the aggrieved party is prepared to make a formal complaint the Police have their hands tied and can do nothing.

Col ]:)

I have pretty snug connections with Rogers Communications in Canada and they used ot send me screeners to evaluate movies (they have a base of screener viewers to rate movies for rental).

THey sent me BFC about two months befor eit came out in the theatre, but the disk was buggered. SO when I called the distribution HO in Toronto, they just gave me a string to download it from P2P networks.

So it was available on P2P befor eit ever hit the theatres.

As for open doors, I live in the quietest and most serene place I could find in B.C. Yet I still lock my door, probably from living in Vancouver so long.

When I lived in teh naritimes, I think it was a little more lax, but even now they are more concious of theft.

Michael Moore as a knack of making isolated situations appear to be the way of the world, some call this lying or truth spining but really it is no different than any other news report or story on earth that simply shows information that supports its claim, whether Fox News, The White House or CNN, they all do it and it's just a matter of either viewing all sides or simply only believing one opinion, which too many seem to do these days.

I thinkMichael Moore is actually more widely known in the USA than Canada, and many Canadians would say he's American, if they even know who he is. YOu see, he is politically focused, Canadians aren't. We just get on with it and let the gov do their gov stuff, they aren't waging wars so we don't have to really care, domsetic issues will be domestic issues no matter what we do or say, there will ALWAYS be controversy, so why even bother affording it your attention?

To simplify, people DO want to earn a living selling their music, with or without a label.
It has nothing to do with genre, nobody ATTACKED you for musical genre. It's what THEY sell, kids buy what the labels sell them, not what kids choose to listen to.

YOu say you don't want to know about "all that stuff" yet "all that stuff" is the reson record labels don't deserve any form of sympathy. THEY nastardize music and produce such low quality and poorly packaged material that nobody wants to pay $16 for one or two songs. Whether you want to hear about it or not, that is a major issue that most complain about when faced with file sharing issues.

As far as people giving away music, even those that make money selling material have no problem with the percentage who dowanload it.

If I don't get sent promo copies of new music, I will often download it to sample it, but I will usually buy the CD too as I collect music. When the CD has ONE sellable track, I won't bother after hearing the rest of it, you just don't get to HEAR the rest of it on the radio as you are sold the hook tune. If the CD had consistent engineering and production, it would be a sellable product, when one hook tune is well produced and 8 other tracks are not, people feel ripped off, th eartists gets a bad name and nobody buys the disk. They then say they lose revenue due to file sharing. So I see it as self perpetuated loss of revenue, NOT due to file sharing though.

At least in Canada.....nobody can be charged with 'theft'.

Using a P2P network to distribute (whatever) does not equal theft.

Using a P2P network to 'take' (whatever) from another does not equal theft.

It is piracy or fraud but not theft.

Some may feel I'm splitting hairs .......... but there is a big difference between those two criminal offenses.

With or without additional funding, no ISP that I know of would risk reputation or lawsuit on monitoring their servers for 'unethical' activity.

I think most are already overwhelmed keeping virus & trojans off their servers.

**** I guess I should ask if AU considers this activity in those 'terms'? ****

All the front end does is publish a list of filenames, not copyrighted content. You only get the filenames if you ask for them, and the actual files if you ask for them one by one. If it's a popular file you get them off several different people.
Lawyers can have field days with this issue. A list of available files proves absolutely nothing and they are only in the mailbox of people who agree to have them delivered and thats still only a list of names.
Don't use logic on the law, one's got nothing to do with the other.

Not without cutting of anyone who doesn't agree to our rules off the internet.
If the chinese don't listen to Britney Spears, I'd count that as a plus point, looking at her that's a different matter of course. I'm not that old yet.
I'm not allowed to walk around the streets naked. I can walk around my house naked though and the cops aren't allowed to install cctv in my domicile to check every now and then if I am.

Thats two of the laws I disagree with massively by the way, any human who finds nakedness offensive is some sort of weirdo in my book, and if I want to get out of my bonce, that's got nowt to do with anyone else unless I become a danger to other members of my society.
Everybody at uni is a drugged up alcoholic loon, I fit right in usually.
LOL

keyboard just in case, the IEEE will have to be quick though, otherwise the granddaughter will be featuring in the webcast instead of me.
Remember the IEEE is international but it isn't universal. Also if the standards it wishes to impose don't meet certain players business needs, they'll just ignore it, and it can only be accepted not imposed.

First of all, I don't carry a purse. It's more of a "man bag."

Second, you said, "If someone stole your purse or your handbag the police would charge that person with theft." Well, as Hal pointed out, someone has to tell the police that your bag was stolen.

At the end of the day, it is your bag. The police and ISPs aren't going to spend time and resources patrolling the internet waiting to see piracy take place.

Recently there was a case where a couple of Uni Students where dragged before the courts for starting one of these Peer to Peer services and the worst that they got was a $2,00.00 AU fine, their hardware was not even sized.

While the people involved even the prosecution was happy with the outcome of course the Recording Industry was not at all happy and they where very vocal in their complaints. Apparently the fine didn't even come to 1/10 of the cost of their investigation before they informed the police so action could be commenced.

We also have some slightly different laws over here as well like if you buy a product be it a Music, movie or data, CD/DVD you are legally able to make a copy of it for work purposes and use it so the original doesn't suffer any damage. You are only in breach of the local laws if you start selling these for a profit but you are free to give away copies of what you own. Of course this mainly revolves around music and movies but in theory any software falls into this as well but of course any software that requires activation like Windows XP would be useless to anyone who you gave a copy to except for a 30 day trial which is all that XP supports before requiring Product Activation.

Col

Good point you've made, why SHOULD we do the work of the police?

In that sametone why SHOULD an ISP do the work of the police?

It's not their job either. If the file sharing was duer to a FLAW in their advertised and regulated service, then yes it would be their concern. Nobody is willing to make that the ISP's responsibility though because why SHOULD they be held esponsible for what users do with their service? That would be just a [i]slight[/i] infringement of personal freedoms.

So while issues such as feedom vs responsibility and regulation exist, nobody will be held responsible and even then, I think the ISP would be one of the last responsible.

To compare, should the city works department be reponsible for drivers on their roads that break the law, or the driver himself?

The ISP is just providing roads to drive on, it is not their responsibility to police them too.

As I have said I do not want ISPs to be held liable and take responsibility for their users actions.

I WANT THEM TO HELP OUT.

They control the internet, they already stop spam, viruses and hacks, why not add another level to help the police agencies and stop piracy as well.

I am not just talking about P2P music sharing, Internet piracy includes software, images (child porn, etc), inventions, text (books), films, and every thing else that is intellectual property. People stealing IP is the same as stealing any form of physical property. You would not walk into a music store and steal a CD.

Everyone says that the police, governments, and ISPs should not do anything about it but it is the music industries responsibility to protect themselves. If someone stole something of yours you would report it to the police. The music industry is reporting this theft to the police but THEY ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT, or at least even trying to solve the problem. Otherwise it would not be the huge problem that it is today! In Australia there is no central register of infringements and the police agencies have to rely on industry statistics. No doubt this is also how it is in many other countries.

The 2002 BSA 7th Annual Global Software Piracy Study claims that the "worldwide piracy rate jumped from 37% in 2000 to 40% in 2001, costing the industry about US$11 billion in lost sales". Vietnam is one of the worst with a piracy rate of an astounding 94% but the BSA estimate that 25% of software programs in the US are illegal.

You want to see how huge this problem is and see how government just don?t care unless it involves terrorism or child pornography (which is a form of piracy) and other such things, click the link below to see some interesting cases.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal%5fct/1997/686.html

My point is that we need to take action as piracy is climbing and industry is falling.

ISPs control the internet and police need to work with them just like they do with hackers, viruses, spam, child porn, and other criminal actions. All they need to do is use this existing relationship to start a new crusade against internet piracy and force this growing figure back around the other way!

Currently ISP's pass on the costs of scanning for viri, spam and all the other things to their users, so adding another layer of software to the mix could only push up the price of the service that they offer.

Then there is the problem of the Open Source Community allowing their products to be freely downloaded at will by anyone so the content would have to be checked as well. It just wouldn't be good enough for the ISP to report someone who they suspect of downloading software and then leave it the the Police to check out as it would be a massive waste of Police time and resources in tracking down someone who downloads an Open Source product every time.

I don't know about you but I have an adverage download of 18 GIG a month and it has been that way ever since I have had this particular connection and beside what MS offers me to play with every piece of software that I download is either brought on line or Open Source.

So just how would you tell the deference between a genuine sale of software lets for argument use Nero 7 which is currently available to buy on CD or a direct download and someone downloading a pirate copy of something?

Then the Australian Broadcasting Corporation streams content as you want it so that would be considered as a movie download but the ABC wants you to have access to this product and welcomes its download. How do you suppose it would be possible the decide just who was downloading illegal and legal products?

The bottom line is that the Police already have the power with a court order to obtain this information from ISP's when they want to and unless they have a large computer crime unit they will be unable to actually do their job properly so instead of complaining that the Police are not doing their job properly how about lobbying your local Politicians for better Police Numbers and a High Priority placed on Computer Crime?

If you are a big company who is supposedly loosing millions of $ per minute as you claim with the figures that you have given then the industry must be huge as MS isn't exactly short on cash is it? They are only too willing to make complaints to the proper agencies and instigate Civil Action to protect their property just where or why do they need the ISP's to help them do their job? I'm getting a constant stream of Enforcment Notices from MS telling me just who they have recently caught doing the wrong thing and what they have agreeded to settle out of court for. These notices also list the companies name and the names of the Principles involved in the Fraud. In every one of these cases MS has acted on complaints from the public and there has not been one case where MS has involved or needed an ISP to instigate these actions. Or provide any information for either.

But even MS isn't all that great I have a 15 site Volume License of XP Pro and I'm constantly keep getting told that I have pirate software {ever since I deployed SP2} and even though I brought it through the same suppliers who are one of the 3 recognized MS resellers in AU for some reason MS seems to think that it isn't a legal copy. Now if that is the case the MS resellers must be selling Pirate MS product but of course it didn't need altering when SP1 was released like so many volume license copies that MS had just picked a group of numbers out of thin air and decided that anything that fell within that range was not legal and if you could prove that it was they would give you a new product key which you could then change on every computer that you had brought licenses for. If it was only a 5 site license it was not a big deal to change the product keys but like one Government Department here who supplied all the computers for the Government Departments they had well over 10,000 product keys to change over before they could even consider applying SP1.

Personally I had to deal with 2,500 computers running XP that needed changing so SP1 could be installed without trashing the OS and neither I or the company involved got paid for that fiasco but the company had to not only pay for me and my staffs time but also had to arrange for us to go in there ofter hours to perform the change over on an Easter Long Weekend so they not only had to pay normal time but Extra Time for the inconvenience that we where put to by having to have 10 people work for almost 4 days to perform that little unnecessary operation.

Col

Every internet user would have to agree to give up ALL privacy. There would be no way for ISPs to check datastreams without violating that privacy. For example are ISPs allowed to break secure transactions (HTTPS) to check for content?

If so, what's to stop an unscrupulous employee from getting financial information?

It is entirely the OWNER's responsibility to stop their work from being pirated. If you can prove theft, go to the police, make an accusation, show them your proof, and let them take it from there. That's the ONLY thing that will work. Putting the onus on everybody to prevent the mal intent of the few has always been problematic.

Because in SOME countries this file sharing is not seen as copyright infringement. IN fact in Canada, stopping people from sharing filesviolates Canadian Constitutional rights, thus it simply cannot be enforced. Cities look at the return on investment when arresting people. If they spend tens or hundreds of thousands arresting people and taking them to court , only to find they get off every time, then the city is NOT spending your money too wisely.

Now how much of that Child pron is actually COMING from the states? If it comes from Guam, or Guyana or other popular offshore servers, different laws apply.

If you dowload a song using LimeWier or Kazaa and it is being downloaded from people in Canada, how do you enforce a law that isn't against OUR laws?

It isn't illegal for Canadians to share that music with you, why would an ISP cooperate in a breaching an unenforceable law?

HOW much money will be wasted on frivolous lawsuits that simply do not reaward the state with what it has invested in time and manpower to arrest and try the accused?

Why do you think they decriminalized marijuana in Canada? It was costing too much money to arrest people, house them for a day or two and them watch them walk away from a courtroom without a penalty that recoverss the costs.

THey have instead, NOT legalized it as many think, but have started to impose hefty FINES, so while it is not a criminal offense it is now punichable by having a HEFTY fine imposed. You will not face criminal charges if you get caught with less than 15 grams (just over a half ounce), BUT you can face $400.00 in fines for having a couple of joints on you. Yet even THIS isn't being enforced, a god portion of the mounties in Canada get stoned anyway.

SO there's more to engorcing law than just finding someone to point a finger, you have to have a viable case that will see the costs returned to the city for their actions or a danger removed from the street that justifies the costs.

In the case of file sharing, it is illegal in the US and therefore unenforceable on a global scale.
IF they started to impose fines on files haring, they would have to do the same with recording anything from the radio, borrowing a tape from a friend etc. It just doesn't hold up in a courtroom, and doesn't return any investment. It's not like they will get a fine and that fine will go to the artist who's work was shared.

Child Porn, IS illegal and monitored globally, any mention or indication of child porn is immediately investigated by the local police (in Vancouver anyway) or FBI un the US if needed. We have a dedicated cybercrime squad in the RCMP and most local law enfromaent agencies, they DO look for such things and DO act upon them.

As for stealing from a record store, you are directly stealing revenue and packaged, finished product. THis isn't always the case with file sharing on the internet though. YOu may hear one or two songs from a new CD and deem it worthy to go and purchase it. MP3's are not really a quality reproduction, thye lack massive amounts of sound quality. It has been equated to someone singing the song for you to see if you would like it or not, therefore once again, being legal and not infringing on anyone's right to earn a living from their work.

If I build a mockup Ford Truck out of sheet metal, to show someone in another country what a Ford truck looks like, I am not breaking the law. If I DUPLCATE a ford truck exactly as the original and CLAIM it is a Ford truck, then I am again breaking the law.

That's why the "legal" file sharing outlets, the BS ones that pretend they are sending money to the RIAA for a monthly file sharing service fee will ONLY allow music at a max bitrate. Usually capped at 128 or in the case of Real Player's service 160. Therefore it is not deemed reproduction as the quality is not a copy of the original and it doesn't equal a store bought offering. Much like MIDI music sampling is not illegal.

As for other crimes that are DANGEROUS to society, again you mentioned Child Porn, these issues ARE being addressed seriously.

Music, law isn't broken.

Porn, IS being monitored and offenders are brought to trial where they can be.

ON that same note, what about a company who had branches in NOva Scotia, Toronto and Vancouver.

Software is PUSHED across the network and installed fro remote users on their own VPN, how would an ISP track exactky what software WAS licenced and what wasn't?

Say that same company had an extra 5 copies (licened of course) of Office 2003, and THEY offreed it for a couple of execs to download to their home PC's?

The amount of money WASTED on reviewing such issues as opposed to the amount regained in the form of fines would be astronomical. EVen at that point though, we are talking about a CITY enforcing a law, what they jjust hand the money over to the owner of the licence? I think not.

When the CITY enforces a law they try the offender and collect a fine, LOCALLY, it is the CITY's money not Microsoft's. If MS want to collect money, they need to find the offender and take him to trial themselves. So NOBODY is going to get paid back, no matter HOW many people THE CITY stops. Now if MS was allowed to obtain this information from the ISP, why wouldn't I be able to get it too, just design some stupid little piece of software and demand I get information from the ISP.

The ISP is gonna be PRETTY damn busy, FAR to busy to run their service and more intent on stopping cybercrime. God what a mess that would become! And in the end...nobody gets paid anyway.

A loose loose situation.

Actually, it's probably likewise in the US....as it was Apotheon that brought my attention to the subtle BUT important difference in using the word 'theft' in this context.

Now it just annoys the hell out of me to hear piracy & fraud described as theft.....

It's either a FINE or TIME. An important difference if you ask me.

There are criminal torts and civil torts. Copyrite infringement has historically been treated as a civil tort, much like say, libel, and police usually don't get involved, except to enforce the court's order if necessary. It is up to the aggrieved to seek redress in the courts.

I firmly believe the infringement is wrong, but I think their cure will be worse than the disease.

like the napster ad says, they have $15/mo unlimited but apple's site would cost $1/song, 15,000$ to fill your ipod

you are responsible for calling FBI with copyright violation. They don't go looking for it. And there are orgs of end users (RIAA) that do exactly that, self police.

We swap large data files with customers. So if our ISP started scanning them it could take five times as long to send a 200 meg zipped file, (2.47 gig uncompressed)?

And police have security problems: how many times have drug lockers been broken into and police evidence stolen? I don't feel our customer's data would be secure if it was tapped by ANYONE, just makes it that much easier for crooked cop to go into new biz: selling stolen data.

the threat of US govt revoking broadcast licenses is used repeatedly to censor political statements by broadcasters.

Invasive control of internet and political bullying would result from threat to take away ISP licenses.

Is this an Assignment Question has not been addressed?

I'm beginning to think that we are all contributing to some guy who wants to pass an assignment with some good reasons just why it is impractical to have ISP's make this information available. :(

The whole idea is just at best silly or something thought up by a Bureaucrat who doesn't need to know any better and doesn't have to foot the bill for all the wasted time and effort that will be involved. Or even consider the amount of Police resources that will be consumed.

Hey get the ISP's to police what is downloaded and we'll all be better off what a good idea! :)

Sounds very much like what was pushed when lead was removed from petrol a few years ago it was supposed to clean up the place but has actually contributed to Acid Rain which they are now trying to combat. Maybe to avoid all of the Acid Rain that we are currently getting some other bureaucrat will come up with the idea of adding lead to fuel and prevent the H2SO2 being a major byproduct of combustion. :D

But most likely some idiot bureaucrat will see an old episode of Dr Who the one where the Good Doctor insists that Hydrogen is the only reasonable fuel alternative and go with that. Not really likely as it makes some sense.

Col ]:)

That this is an assignment question that we are all participating in.

Col ]:)

and I can?t steal your IP, that would go against everything that my post is all about.

I do not believe there is a class in IT for Internet Piracy, maybe there should be! This is my own little project as I am genuinely annoyed that someone can just pass off my work as their own, or use it as their own. My institution already takes my academic work and can use it in any way they want, so I know that if you work for a company they can sell your idea, which is not my beef. It is with Internet criminals!

Fair enough it is a matter of civil action, but you are exactly right. Police will only step in if there is a court order. But ISPs won?t help; they just sit in their little offices and put up a giant screen of denial of liability. Maybe we should drag the IT geeks out of their little comfort zones and bring them out into what is happening in the public arena.

I have no time to read all your post however like your title says, i dont want to pay for samples. Many sites offer samples before you buy, and this is the way it should stay.

Logic and law do not mix, however I still say that if you seize the content for evidence analysis, then you can get the criminal, if you know you are downloading that song from that source.

Please reply to my comments on LINE 0100 as this thread has gotten too big.

thanks, Scott.

** Moved Post **

If you really want to split straws MS did exactly the same thing when they singed their agreement with IBM. The brought a version of DOS form one of the OS makers re-badged it and sold it off as their own product.

Unfortunately they didn't remove any of the bugs from it and brought all of their products down to that level. Buggy and nasty.

However while there are not courses in Internet Piracy there sure are courses in Internet Security and this issue would fall fairly and squarely into one of those courses.

But the main problem no matter what else is just how would any download be identified as breaching the law in some part of the world? For the moment forget about international boundaries and different laws in different parts of the world and the ability of some Governments to actually Enforce any of their laws lets for a Hypnotically keep it simple and say for a short time that there is one International Law that covers all IP. How do you go about soughing the legal from the illegal downloads? Even the bigger ISP's wouldn't have the computing capacity to track every download or backtrack to see where a particular download was coming from let alone who was performing the download.

Do you intend to sought by the size of the download? If that where the case most of the MP3 files wouldn't rate a mention as they are small which is exactly what MP3 is supposed to be.

Movies on the other hand are fairly large and even with the highest speed Internet connection still take time to download about the same time is involved in downloading a movie as the DVD installation of Novell's SUSE. Although the Novell product is probably a lot smaller as it will fit on a single layer DVD and not the Dual Layer DVDs that movies come on. Just how would you suppose that these downloads are differentiated?

Don't get me wrong I'm against Pirate Downloads no matter what they are but it isn't an easy call either. As for ripping music to MP3 it looses quite a lot of its clarity and is little better than a low end car sound system from that point of view to me at least it is only a sample and nothing more. It should be treated the same way as music played on Radio that isn't charged for and the blank media has a surcharge on it to help pay the Record Companies and Movie Companies for lost revenue. So with every Blank DVD, CD, Cassette, Open Reel Tape, blank Video cassette that any one buys they are paying the various industries for possible lost revenue and this money goes directly to the industry and none of it ever sees the artists who are responsible for the original productions who should be receiving some % of it.

Now personally I take offense to paying any industry a surcharge on blank media which is only used for data backup and even then it is confidential company records so why should I be paying a surcharge on these disc's to support industries that I have no contact with?

That is one of my pet peeves but as it is I just buy whatever it is that I require and forget about all of the money that I'm needlessly paying for the few criminals in the world.

In the Asian countries this just isn't an issue as those responsible for the wholesale pirating not only supply the Pirate software but also own the companies who make the media so their whole production is geared to supplying the Pirate trade in whatever it is that they are supplying. The same applies in various other parts of the world as well so effectively even if you are making a copy of a movie or music you are still paying a fee to the industries who are crying foul about the problem.

Sony one of the big ones in the music industry at least is also one of the biggest suppliers of the hardware to make these copies and even if their name isn't on the front of the product a Royalty is paid to them for developing the hardware so they as a company are getting it from every direction. That is just one example.

As for some applications being re-badged and claimed as the IP of others this has been happening ever since computing began. If you are unwilling to Copy Rite your IP then you can expect nothing else particularly if it is a good idea. Even if only part of your application is used in a different application you will still receive royalties for your work, but on the down side was it worth paying the International Copy rite fee in the first place as you may never recoup this cost let alone make a profit. It isn't as if all you have to do is walk in and pay a fer hundred $ it is always a few hundred thousand $ and quite often far more so is it worth the cost of protecting your property in the first place?

Of course if you are unwilling to pay the bill to copy rite it you are effectively giving people open slather to use and abuse your IP as they wish. If you can not be bothered in protecting your own work why should anyone be bothered if someone else uses and claims it as theirs and more to the point is how do you prove that an application or a few lines of code wasn't written by someone else?

Currently that is exactly what SCO is attempting to do in their case against IBM for a breach of contract dispute which somehow has got blown into a fight against the Linux Community in general.

With the wide use of compilers now several different people could enter the same parameters into the same brand and model of compiler and get exactly the same resulting code so who wrote it? And more to the point who owns it?

As for my personal IP I'm not the slightest bit worried about anyone using it now and although it has been a very long time since I have written any real code it was all released under a Public User License. The only thing I would be concerned about is someone using my name to sell code that I have not been involved in compiling and that is a very remote possibility.

I've written a few small applications all for Linux installations and they are freely available to anyone who wants to either use them as they are or modify them to suit their own needs the same applies to all my staff members as well and while in theory I technically own anything that they write that just isn't an issue here as we only write things for our customers use and because of the specialized nature of these applications they would be virtually useless to anyone else but the code is available if anyone wants to use or alter it to suit their own needs. We don't even bother putting our names to it we just submit it to Debian for their use and abuse. We also have the ability to borrow any of their code for our own use as well so it works both ways. You do not need to reinvent the wheel every time you sit down to punch in a bit of code if someone else has done the basics or exactly what you need why waste the time in rewriting and developing something that is already available or something that can be modified easily?

I've already been paid for my time so I do not see any issue at all. But even then on most occasions I only charge a minimal fee for any specialized code that is punched out here as it is all simple and doesn't take much time to compile and debug. If we spend 10 man hours writing a bit of code to do something the customer either gets it for nothing as it was required for a new installation or for some routine service work for which we are paid and we are able to use the same code elsewhere if ever required.

So I'll go back to what I originally said Copy Rite everything that you produce and this isn't as easy as it sounds either as you have to prove that you are actually the author of the code and that it doesn't appear elsewhere and then make it freely available in some sought of crippled form on the Internet where you can have a World Wide Presence and hopefully if it fills a niche area of the market you will make a profit from your work. You can expect some of it to be pirated but the bulk will be paid for unless you over price the complete thing which is exactly what MS does so their products are so heavily pirated. However there are numerous applications on the market which are both cheap and quite effective so most people rather than go through the hassle of cracking the code just pay for it without another thought. Those who are willing to crack the thing will never pay for your work in the first place anyway so they where never going to be a customer in the first place. The best that you can hope for is that they tell everyone that they know just how good so & so is and others buy it from the advertising that these pirates have done for you. After all if you had to pay for the advertising it would cost you far more and a little going astray is far cheaper than what you would have paid in the advertising World Wide in the first place. These pirates have a World Wide presence so they are more than happy to share among their on-line friends what is worth cracking and what isn't so you effectively have people all over the world doing your advertising and even if you are only getting 1% of the sales from this source it is still a massive revenue source which is effectively free to you as it hasn't cost you a single cent to get the word out about your product. You also do not have to support Cracked copies of your work either so if something doesn't work quite right with a new OS you are not responsible for any damage done by people using the cracked copies.

Col ]:)

VPN's being put in place by the bad guys to download software, music, movies or whatever so it wouldn't be considered as "Public."

Secondly just how random is random and who is responsible for the losses if some confidential data gets copied and sold to the individuals competition?

Or worse still an Insurance company is sending a zipped data stream to an off site storage location which includes all of their customer database with their medical records. Would you be willing to have this scanned knowing full well that no security checks have been done of those who are doing the scanning?

In this Hypothetical case what would happen if a rival insurance company paid someone at an ISP to copy this data stream and give them the copy so they could contact everyone on the list and offer discounted Insurance?

Or your medical records are being transmitted to a specialist trauma center after you have been involved in a major collision and these private and confidential records are scanned by one of your neighbors would you be happy with this? In a case like the above every second counts in saving lives or at the very least reducing permanent injuries would it be acceptable to slow down file transfers like this?

With the advent of On Line Medicine you can have a doctor on the other side of the world performing an operation and someone else giving advice/help in an instance like this where video is being streamed back to the consulting doctor/s it would be inconceivable to either monitor or scan this as it could adversely affect the data stream and result in the death or severe permanent injury to the person being operated upon.

Just where is the line drawn?

Col ]:)

collection but even I would struggle to find 15,000 songs to listen to. I'd struggle even more to find the time to listen to them, and then struggle to find the one I wanted to listen to.
iPod, marketing drivel, should have spent more on the battery anyway.

But doesn't the IPod have a car charger?

Those things are like Notebooks they are great for short periods on the battery but are useless if you are going to rely on the battery for any length of time. If you do not have access to mains power or the car charger they are nothing more than fashion accessories. Actually come to think of it the way that they are marketed they are fashion accessories and you are not meant to actually listen to them for long periods of time. But they look good on your side. :D

Col ]:)

Fashion is for sheep, or possibly financial lemmings.
The thing I heard about the battery was that once it runs out, the cost of another in the UK was running at ?90 (standard US dollar for pound scam). While I'll admit it would simplify the xmas shopingg (buy you kid an ipod) then every following year a battery.
Why isn't it rechargeable ?. Good question, a nicad pack like you get for a good remote control car would have done the job. Given it's other features I can only assume the technical design was done by someone who normally makes handbags etc.
Fit for purpose, practical and efficient were obviously not considerations.
Mobile phones, and laptops are rechargeable, so why not ipods ?
I'm sure there's a good commercial reeason for it though.

When I started learning Python programming, I ofund it was basically just a matter of writing scripts that run modules. Modules are already made and available for download at no cost by other Python programmers and shared freely.

Writing Python is one of the most lucrative programming fields around, it pay HUGE money for the time invested, is easier to debug and mreo stable than C++. So the modules are shared freely.

Funny enough though,none of these programmers ever complain about their IP they still make money hand over fist with their scripting and give away the modules used in the program.

SO unless you are a Microsoft wannabe, unless you have somehing REALLY special that should be protected by copyright, then why even start complaining?

Write a program, share it and make the world a better place. Then go find something you can earn a living from. If you don't want to share your creations, don't put them out if you can't afford to protect them properly, or if it's something we can't live without, you should have no problems finding financial backing anyway.

I just don't see what the big deal is, people expect to write code and make millions still?

BTW, talking about copying images/music/software, perhaps your avatar was taken from a copyrighted apple iPod website or ad?

And your post to TR might have been blocked if this was so and your scheme was in place

right now, RIAA, etc can join p2p nets and analyze all they want and find illegal songs. They don't need the ISPs to do this.

This is the best method now, as the ISPs don't need to invest anything, or enable or disable anything and the people who are concerned are doing the work to find the copyrighted files. The only thing they need to do is respond with acct info if illegal activity found. Why change it?

Right, and ISPs naturally should respond to court orders. But court orders should not be too easyt to get. I mean, You wouldn't ask for a court order to monitor every phone call every customer of a particular phone company makes just in case one person may be planning a crime. Likewise, you shouldn't ask an ISP to monitor all internet traffic just in case one person is trading MP3s.

Now if they can say to a judge "a computer attached to this IP address on a certain date and time is sharing files whose copyright is owned by us". Then the judge could order the ISP to turn over information on whose account fit the description, and I would have no problem with that.

they don't do virus checking and spam blocking for some other enforcement body but for their own customers.

If they're blocking ports, it isn't per-se to block illegal activity but to prevent network degradation, and possible to prevent web attacks leading to zombification of PCs with rootkits (and network degradation).

and not all ISPs do this. my website hosting provider does NO spam/ virus checking on email, while my home one probably does.

This is different from them checking on their customers for an outside body.

I think you'll find most people in this forum agree with IP protection to some degree (see discussion on this under hot discussions), just not on a particular way to enforce it.

So, if you mention the state of Israel on a site hosted or connected by A Telstra Resource, they can yank the site and cancel your account because you have violated a law that exists in several Arab countries that prohibits the recognition of the state of Israel?

Oh, please, that kind of language in a TOS/AU agreement is just some crap that is stuck by the corporate lawyers in there so they can do whatever they want in an 'uncomfortable' situation without having to provide a rational justification for doing so.

Sound sucks BIG time, out of all of those I've tested, i-Pod had the worst sound, even with good aftermrket headphones. NO volume, no power, no bottom end.

The battery IS rechargeable, IN the I-Pod but as you sya, it is proprietary and costs a lot to replace. Seeing as the i-Pod has terribly bad battery life, it reduces it's actual play time after a few months and after a year you'r lucky to get an hour....new battery time.

But they are trendy so people want them.

i-Pod has a mechanical hard drive, drop it or bang it and it's all over.
The i-Pod I tested skipped like a schoolgirl at recess.

But the biggest thing you hear is how it holds 15000 songs, DAYS of playback. But the battery only lasts a few hours, so what's the point?

I wentwith a smaller 256MB Samsung, sound is AMAZING! It takes TWO AAA's instead of 1 (as most use only 1) but it has a touchpad interface ('similar' to i-Pod) and REALLY CRANKS!!! Bottom end just THUMPS through Sennheiser headphones and it runs a good 15-20 hrs depending on how loud.
Add SRS surround, fast USB uploading and you've got a fun toy. I invested $40.00 in good NiHm batteries so I'mgood for about 2000 charges on a rotation (4 batteries in the pack).

i-Pod, just doesn't cut the mustard, it's too bad more people don't actually listen to these things and weigh the pros and cons of them because MOST people just want one or buy one because they think they are the best.

My neice got one for Christmas, it was returned/traded for a Samsung after she listened to mine and she got a new DVD player and movies for her bedroom too.

MAC, i-Pod shudder.

Copyright, Trademark and Patent Infringement are NOT criminal matters unless and until they get to the point where outright fraud is being perpetraited upon a significantly large group of people, mainly in the arena of counterfeit goods.

These are generally matters that involve some kind of economic loss and not anti-social behavior with individual people potentially being injured or harmed in some way (which is the principal reason that kiddie porn is illegal.) These are NOT matters for criminal law enforcement agencies to deal with (Would someone tell the BSA they they are NOT a law enforcement agency, despite how they attempt to position themselves in the deceptively crafted radio ads?) as they have more important things to do. Infringement does NOT deprive anyone of the use and benefit of a particular object as would the physical theft of that object.

Have we been brainwashed by the BSA, RIAA and MPAA's propaganda that 'sharing' or 'copying' are 'stealing' and 'theft'? They may view it that way, but in the eyes of the laws it is not. That's why the word 'infringement' is used. It has a specific connotation of the inappropraite application or misuse of a right or privilege (NOT the physical possession of an object) granted by the law.

Intellectual property and physical property can not be all lumped together under one single approach to property law I believe that it's the mistaken belief they they can be (or in fact ARE) that causes most of the difficulty and complexity in attempting to formulate any kind of a reasonable solution to the issues surrounding digital-IP and the internet.

Whatever that solution might be, it should never, ever involve the police bashing down someone's door at 3AM to search for copied mp3s, warez, cracks, or keygens.

Furthermore in the statement:

"The government governs technology of which people use, people are also governed by the government and people use the government for protection from the use of technology of which people use."

The government should NOT be governing technology. (Can the Government amend the laws of physics? Repeal Kirchoff's law?, Change Avagadro's number to be unlisted? Make Planck's constant variable according to which party is in power?) The Government should be governing 'behavior'. The mere existence of a technology does not directly pose a threat to anything. The threat comes from how that technology may be employed.

--TG