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  • #2193303

    The best OS ever without a doubt

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    by nz_justice ·

    Nobody would use a PC if Microsoft hadn’t invented windows. How can it not be the greatest OS ever. sure bugs, but those bugs get fixed. sure frustration but what isn’t frustrating in IT. Linux you can be learning that for life, then die and still have accomplished nothing. Mac, it’s not windows, there functionality is sub standard because they don’t want to be sued by MS. A lot of the web would be missing if there was no windows. Just about every application out there that is worth using is made for windows. There is no good alternative. Linux gurus are now working for microsoft. Open source has no direction every step forward is a step backward. Windows OS is the wheel, we use to drive our pc’s. Only the US MOD does anything good with other technology, and no average user currently has access to that shit. sure Microsoft are a big evil bloodsucking entity but so is coca cola and I love coke (the drink). So yep Windows is the best OS ever, nothing will ever beat it.

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    • #3098130

      If I remember correctly

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      There where a lot of computers in use in domestic environments in the DOS days and not many of them even used MS DOS.

      Also If I’m correct Xerox actually invented the GUI and had it running on several k of PC’s running Unix and when the [b]Powers That Be at Xerox[/b] decided that there was no future in PC’s and decided to concentrate on their [b]Core Business[/b] photocopiers they brought in all the current competition of the day Steve Jobs [from Apple} and Bill Gates and showed them what they had accomplished before trashing the entire system and sending it to the scrap heap.

      Now if I remember correctly Apple got their GUI to the market first and where the PC to own for the illiterate computer user and where there long before Windows hit the market with Windows.

      But I’m open to correction. 😀

      Of course I see that you want to start off a massive argument where you need Fire Proof gloves on before you can touch your keyboard but I’m not buying into it. 😀

      Col ]:)

      • #3098099

        All your points are valid

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        But I’m a bit slow (got droped on my head when I was a baby(they should explain heaps)). But how does any of what you said mean that Windows is not the greatest OS. sorry your not buying into, well thanks for the info. Did you know that the the number one selling motor bike was the honda cub. And the show top ten greatest every rated this bike as number 1 ever. So thanks for putting me stright with the those facts, but whats the relavince. My main point is ( not that I didn’t produce straight facts at the start of the thread) but windows is the graetest OS ever, so what if xerox created the first ever GUI, micrsoft stole it. So what if apple got their gui on the market first, mirosoft still out sold them. How do you become the worlds most hated and used software in the world if your OS is not the best ever?

        • #3097800

          The answer to that one is easy!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to All your points are valid

          Join up with IBM to smash Apple that’s exactly what Billy Boy did and since IBM used Open Architecture so any company could make an IBM clone it had to have MS product on it to compete. So that is how MS got 95% of the PC market not because it was the best but because it was sold by IBM on their own machines so everyone else who wanted to compete with IBM had to use MS OS & Software this was again back in the DOS days.

          Incidentally that project by Xerox didn’t just allow the networking of any number of PC’s but allowed the sharing of resources between different units so if one unit was low on CPU resources this was farmed out to other units that had an excess of resources available the same goes for Memory and storage space. I’ve yet to see anything similar to come out of MS Windows yet but at least you can network the OS easily even if there is an upper limit to the number of concurrent connections that it supports.

          By the way the best car of all time as voted by the AU motorist was a 1965 VW Beetle it was more reliable ad fuel efficient than anything else on the road as of 1995. Pity my stock standard one straight from the factory only gets 8 miles per gallon but goes like the clappers and throws out about 4 foot of flame from the exhaust pipes on the over run. It’s just like my Ducati I should have Flame Guards on the exhaust outlets but at least I do enjoy driving it even if the petrol has all been changed and I need to pull the motor apart to change the valves and seats so they don’t fail. 😀

          By straight from the factory don’t make the mistake like many do that I was referring to the VW factory either. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3097760

          fair enough

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to The answer to that one is easy!

          But now in the year 2006 when there are so many good alternatives to windows, it still has a large chunk of the market(peopel have a choice now and they are still choosing windows). And MS still steel good ideas. Look a novel netware. far superior to any thing windows could offer, at the time of carpy NT 4 or below, and what did MS steal? AD, and now with Windows XP pro (soon to be over taken by vista) and win2k3 Server you got a pretty solid setup. So if Microsoft steal the best from the rest they can’t go wrong. They don’t need quality contorl they just have to wait for some one else to do it then bamb MS have it.

          Then there is firefox, firefoxes tabs kick ass(apparently you can download third party software to have tabs in IE (but I can’t be bothered)), you get tabs and not so many vunrabilites (because it’s not microsoft). Whats MS doing? They are releasing IE 7. Now seprate from the OS (something to do with them being an evil market hog and the law saying they can’t provide to many apps with there OS or something, because it is unfair to competing alternative products i.e media player vs quick time vs real etc…), at least thats the excuse)and will probably have tabs functionality.

          All this jsut keeps making windows OS get better and better, the alternatives can’t come up with a better one because MS will just steal it.

          cool you have a Ducati. I want an indian, the movie the worlds fastest indian has inspired me to want to have one. I can’t top your Ducati or VW story, I only had that honda cub one.

          Feel good and have fun 🙂

        • #3099720

          Actually MS can only steal uncopyrighted stuff

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to fair enough

          For example Word Perfect since about version 10 I think has had a “Make it Fit” option when the lines go over a page or several and you can reduce it down to fit onto the most convenient page number or increase the page count so that the entire page is filled with no blanks. Word doesn’t have that yet and Corel has had it for ages. 🙂

          I only have a small Ducati a 1982 900 SS Darmah 1 of 23 that was imported into AU that year and I’ve been in control of it since new so I never allowed any of the racers who used the 4 bikes that we had in the team actually use it even though occasionally a few parts where stolen off it at race meetings when there where no spares.

          The one that I really loved was a 1959 250 cc Factory GP racer it was lovely to ride and I used it in Classic Racing one rear tire a day several chains and one front tire worn out every week end now that was a fun bike to ride. 😀

          But unfortunately when I moved north I sold it as there when no race tracks up there and it was useless for anything else still regretting that sale all of 25 years latter and it only did 140 MPH. 🙁 The 900 will pull 130 KPH in first without a second thought but is very heavy on fuel if you are silly enough to ride it at the posted speeds. 🙁

          If you actually shake it into top and keep it around the 5K RPM it will run along on piratically no petrol at all but in that gear and engine speed you are slightly over the speed limit only by a factor of about 3. 😀 OH life is good when you have something like that as a play toy. :p

          The VW on the other hand is a [b]PIG[/b] but I do like the way that it leaves all the supposedly high powered V8’s in its wake. A friend of my son who insisted on trying to beat it on a drag strip after loosing every time for half a day even when I muffed the starts insisted that it is a [b]Freak of Nature[/b] and he wouldn’t believe that the speedio was actually a speedio he insisted that it must be a Tacho until I showed him the cable running to the left hand front wheel. He just thought that I had altered its internals so I had a Tacho right in my face. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3099428

          re make it fit

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Actually MS can only steal uncopyrighted stuff

          version 6 of wordperfect “wordperfect for windows” in 1995 had it.

          and as far as MS stealing non copyrighted stuff only, one person I know was telling me yesterday that ms didn’t even remove the copyright when they stole some code from aix to create dos with, it still had his name in it, right up to the death of dos itself, windows xp.

        • #3099010

          That makes it even worse Jaqui

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to re make it fit

          I’ve been using WP since the DOS days and unlike all the lemmings who have gone to Orifice I stick with what works. I know that the Make it Fit option has been there for a long time but I didn’t realize that it was that long makes Word look as backward and nasty as it actually is doesn’t it? Well I suppose 11 years is nothing in the long term view of MS is it. 😀

          Funnily enough when I set this place up all those years ago I had Corel WP Office on every computer and all the staff complained bitterly and insisted that I was way behind the time living in a long dead world and since then they now all use WP Office and hate it when they have to switch to the MS option I’ve even seen them using WP 12 in MS mode just to get something done so others can read it when required. 😀

          Now they look forward to a new version of WP and I haven’t got any office product newer than XP and I only got that as a throw in for a volume license kit that I bought, seems that the people at the marketing side of MS got their noses out of joint when I refused to buy a volume license copy of Orifice and said that I would stick with what I know works properly WP when the Volume License copy of XP Pro arrived there was also the same number of Office Licenses included. 😀

          While I’ve installed it just so there is a spell checker in Outlook I would have been as happy to use Office 97 and never open the package. 🙂

          Col

        • #3133062

          Not AIX, but story is true in multiple cases

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to re make it fit

          The fact is they bought the program loader which became DOS from Seatle Software.

          They brought other pieces from other companies. I worked on a C compiler and they left variables with TJS (my initials)in a modules that they claimed to have had to rewrite. (They tried to globally change variable names, but that didn’t work when functions had embeded TJS globals that were in linked objects…)So they didn’t like my initials, and they broke the code trying to eliminate variables with my initials, and functions using my initials…

        • #3110057

          Not so, Aussie…

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to Actually MS can only steal uncopyrighted stuff

          MS is like any other thief. They steal when they want to. They stole logic for Windows Media Player from Real and didn’t stop denying it until they settled a lawsuit in an out-of-court agreement resulting in MS purchasing 15% of Real and making a technology exchange agreement. This btw, is MS’s modus operande. To them, stealing code is just a business tactic and so is compensating the victim only when they get close to losing a court judgement.

          They would have “stolen” patented stuff here if they hadn’t made the deal (by definition, un-copyrighted material is legally unprotected).

          Perhaps it remains plagurism and therefor morally and literarily equivalent to stealing. But our friend seems to value everything exclusively on commercial bases. Don’t you think?

        • #3109575

          Defiantly on that one

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Not so, Aussie…

          Actually Java came to mind after I put in the above as well. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3263112

          Can’t we all just agree on a few things…

          by tom.x.spencer ·

          In reply to Not so, Aussie…

          Ok Microsoft is a big evil bloodsucking entity and a necessary evil at the same time. I will give old Bill this what other company in the world can get away with selling a product that is still clearly in BETA phases and people buy it up figure out the problems and then let MS fix it in a service pack. I actually like it when people find the problems in the OS. It boils down to Microsoft is letting people DEBUG their problems and then comes up with a solution to fix it. (MOST OF THE TIME) At the end of the day Microsoft still has some of the best offerings for Home User, Business Users, and sometimes debatable when it comes to Graphic Arts.

          Personally I like the fact that MS listens to what people would like to see and tries to give it to them free within the OS. Shows that they have some compassion about not charging us out the but for things like media player or browsers. Now there are grumblings about them even adding a Anti-Virus Lite in the OS. Who knows. I use MAC’s, I use Linux, and I Use Mocrosoft to do my daily job at an Engineering firm and I will have to say all of them have their good points and all of them SUCK at the same time. It is all a matter of personal preference.

          If you are a coder and do not care for eyecandy and like to live in the command line world use Linux. If you want to do graphics or open up a digital recording studio use a Mac. You want Games, pretty decent productivity products (Office, Money, ETC..), easy networking use Microsoft.

          Microsoft got here by what every successful company and business model show you to do. Create a product that people want, if someone does it better figure out how to one up them, listen to what your public wants, and try to make it as cost effective for society while still making a profit for your self. Which I can cleary say they have done all of the above.

          Not to mention MS gives countless ammounts of money back to charities, education organizations, and other areas of society.

          They are not all bad. The OS has flaws but hell we are human we make mistakes. Computers are only as smart as we make them.

          As a side not Word Perfect has sucked since it left the DOS days. Corel Trashed them as well as most of the things it touches.

          Then on a final point if it was not for Microsoft most IT people in the world would not have a job. My bets are with Microsoft. Wether we like it or not the are the best choice and the best OS for 90% of the people on this planet.

        • #3099619

          You poor misguided soul…

          by jessie ·

          In reply to fair enough

          Winblows is not the best OS ever… but Microsoft’s antitrust practices make it the best known and best marketed. You do recall that little suit against MS, do you not? The one where they were found GUILTY of breaking the antitrust laws, a.k.a. predatory business practices? Their predatory business practices are the reason they’re the best known software in the world, certainly NOT because their software is the most stable or best featured. Now that people have a choice, well… people are lemmings… they’ll walk right over the edge of a cliff if the guy in front of them did it.

          :p Thanks for that little trip down memory lane. I’m not sure how many times this thread or one just like it has been posted, but I so dearly love beating people over the head with logic knowing that they will discredit or completely ignore all the facts anyway.

        • #3099473

          Hey Jessie Long Time No See

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          I hope things are going well for you and the little Miss.

          I’m still dirty about you not setting up a web can and broadcasting the birth but I’ll eventually recover. 🙁 If I can continue to afford the therapy anyway. :p

          Hows the job hunting going anyway? Maybe you’ll get lucky and your sisters will allow you out of IT into a [b]Real Job[/b] with reasonable hours and paid overtime instead of the rubbish that we all have to put up with working IT.

          Lets know if I can help in any way.

          Cheers

          Col ]:)

        • #3099047

          point taken.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          But those aren’t the only MS business pratacies. They do Human Computer Interaction reasearch and they out-source parts to independant companies to build them. It’s not good company practice to ignore the competition. Despite the law suite they just seem to work harder at doing the same thing under a diffrent name. And best dos not have to be definied as stable or best featured. MS products are feature ritch (and that casues lots of problems). Winblows can be the best OS ever, just because all the lemmings use it and it makes them happy.

        • #3098988

          You have a weird…

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to point taken.

          concept of being “great”…

        • #3098761

          Therein lies the rub

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to point taken.

          Commercially only a complete idiot would call it a failure, technically it’s a wall to wall f’up though. I’ve lost count of the times it’s internal inconsistencies, failures and plain design errors have forced me to produce sub-standard code or to exceed the amount of effort that should have been required to make something worthwhile that runs over it. Everyday at work when I’ve been using windows I’ve had to cope with the fact that MS’s commercial success could be my employers commercial failure. Any all things to all men technology will never meet anyones requirements, by definition it tries to get some of everyones.

          P.S. in software engineering a feature is a bug it would cost too much to get rid of.

          Have you used any other OS’s ?

        • #3109958

          Many of you forget

          by why_me ·

          In reply to point taken.

          Not all people are techies. Most users out there are non-technical AND live on a budget. MS offers a median solution. It’s cheaper and easier for the majority of people to buy a Windows box and use it than it is to buy a Mac (easier but more expensive) or to use Linux (cheaper but more difficult to learn how to use). Most of you need to step outside and get some air, then realize that not everyone has their head burried in the computer culture. They want to buy something, take it home, set it up, and know how to use it without a lifetime of study. Without Windows 95, computers would not be nearly so widespread as they are, and the information driven world as we know it would not exist except to the ‘nerds’.

        • #3109863

          Really?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to point taken.

          I walked into a newsagent today and had a look at their computer magazines. One XP Mag,1 Mac Mag, 3 General Computer Mags and 6 Pure Linux Mags and that is what sells in that place.

          Maybe I’m missing something but I doubt it very much that there are [b]Computer Nerds[/b] hanging out at this newsagent buying all the Linux mags.

          Yes I do agree with you that 95 did make PC’s more palatable way back then but now I see far too many people complaining about the shortcomings of Windows and wanting something else to use.

          They are sick and tied of software that doesn’t perform as it should and is riddled with [b]Undocumented Features[/b], has no security to speak of at all and even worse they don’t actually own what they have paid for.

          Can you tell me of one other product that after you pay for you don’t actually own it and can have the makers come in at any time demand its return without compensation and demand that you remove their software from your system?

          From most of the MS Certified Partners meetings that I’ve gone to I’ve seen lots of pimply faced youngsters in suits telling each other just how much money they have made and how they have ripped off their customers. This type of practice [b]can not last![/b]

          They are unconcerned that they have a very bad business reputation and I’ve seen plenty of them shut up shop over night and remove all the customers products that they are holding and just disappear of the face of the planet. Then open a shop 3 weeks latter under a different name and proceed to do it all again.

          You may be happy to work like this but I for one am sick and tied of cleaning up the mess that they fools create and then what makes it even worse is that everyone in Commercial IT are considered as [b]Rip Offs who are out to get everything possible and are unconcerned for their customers.[/b]

          I like repeat business and I treat my customers as a valuable asset not a disposable trash heap once I’ve got as much money as possible out of them.

          Col ]:)

        • #3109810

          Yes Really

          by why_me ·

          In reply to point taken.

          Why is it then that people that still have a computer that is old, and can run a free distro of Linux CHOOSE to go and buy a new computer with the latest version of Windows on it? As more and more younger people get educated on PC’s and the various operating systems earlier in life, there may be a push towards using more Linux in the future, however, it was still Windows that brought the computer home for an overwhelming majority of the users that we have today. Without the evil Bill Gates, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Was the Model T the greatest car of all time? No, but with out it and what it brought to the table, the automobile would have remained a toy strictly for the wealthy for a much longer period.

        • #3109663

          No Really

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to point taken.

          Marketing and distribution obviously.

          As for your earlier point I was in IT before windows and none of it was home computing. You might have to thank Bill, for your career, neither I nor HAL9000, nor many many others have to. So you seem to be promoting windows out of self interest, I don’t have a problem with that at all. Just don’t expect my self interest to coincide with yours. I’ve probaly forgotten a lot over time, certainly I’ve forgotten which version of windows wasn’t chock full of faults.

        • #3109974

          Games?

          by yinbig ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          Windows heralded in the 3D games generation on home computers. The games industry now being one of the largest in the world.

          You don’t get many games for Linix or Mac. So a general PC / OS buyer who wants downtime options would go for the MS offering.

          Don’t think I would be using XP (at home) otherwise….

          Ok you can buy consoles – but they are in on that now as well….

        • #3109949

          Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          by a.c ·

          In reply to Games?

          Windows had nothing to do with the introduction of 3D games (in fact it got in the way more than anything) and the reason most games are written to run on PCs is down to simple numbers… more hardware = more potential sales.
          The 3D games explosion is down to the fact that hardware can now do the maths involved and blit the required images… and other than MS pushing new tech in DirectX for vertex and pixel shading etc.. is still nothing to do with windows.
          If (and this is a big if) more developers used something like sdl to develop games (open and cross platform) then there would be more games available (hardware permitting of course) on other platforms. Loki did a brave job of porting several games to Linux.. but with so many games moving from using OpenGL to DirectX it made it considerably more difficult to do (many earlier PC games using the quake engine, for example, and using OpenGL could be realtively simply ported).. add to that lack of support for OpenGL hardware on Linux and you have a large problem (I could also mention that X is a client server windowing system so to get decent performance you need to bypass X and talk directly to the hardware via an abstracted layer…. that OpenGL now lags behind some of the DirectX technologies because everything has to be agreed by committee.. blah blah!)
          Earliest 3D game I played… Driller.. on an Amstrad CPC.. using Incentives Freescape(TM) system in the late 80s

        • #3109862

          Yeah Windows drives the games industry

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Games?

          by making so many obsolete as they will not run on their latest version of Windows. i have dozens of games that I like but only the last 5 I have bought can be used as they are Win XP compatible and the games for the earlier M$ Windows versions will not run properly in XP regardless of how I try to tweak the compatibility mode.

          Funnily I can load almost any recent version of Linux, instal Cedega and they all run perfectly. According to Bill Gates what i am seeing is some sort of illusion. Illusion or not they play great, even the latest games play better in Cedega than on XP.

        • #3109854

          Cedega

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Games?

          http://www.transgaming.com

          Lol, posted this before I read the above reply by DE. Oh well. Here’s the site none-the-less. 🙂

          BTW, DE, what distro do you use?

        • #3109844

          3D games?

          by vulpinemac ·

          In reply to Games?

          Actually, Grant, you err in your statement about heralding 3D
          games. One of the first 3D games available on the home
          computing market was “Arctic Fox” for the Apple ][ desktop
          computer before Windows was even a dream.

          I won’t deny that the Windows platform still supports the
          majority of desktop games, but I will also say that each new
          version of Windows tended to orphan whatever games the user
          already owned either until updates were made available, or, in
          most cases, a new version was released, forcing you to purchase
          the replacement.

          Granted, this is true for most platforms, but at least one game
          console and at least one computer OS have at least attempted to
          maintain some form of backwards compatiblity to their
          predecessors. Whether that continues or not is to be seen, but
          until then, I will stick with what I use. Yes, I use Windows… for
          gaming; because the games I want aren’t, yet, ported to the Mac.
          But then, I don’t necessarily play the same games you do.

        • #3109744

          Port to mac!

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Games?

          Oi! Cedega will port games to both Linux AND Mac. Lol. I’ve not tested the Mac version, but I know of at least 2 people here that use Cedega to port games to Linux. They are also working on porting games to the PS2 and Xbox.

        • #3109695

          Linux versions I use

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Games?

          Currently I have Fedora Core 4 and Mandrake 10 on different machines and am waiting to get a hold of Mandrake Core 5 as neither of the above work well on my new 64 bit system, mind you the 64 bit windows does not work well on it either. When I get FC 5 I will probably put it on them all.

        • #3094162

          Re: versions

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Games?

          Hmm.. I’m not married to kUbuntu yet, but I found it funny that it’s touted as a newbie distro… Obviously those guys never tried to install anything to watch DVDs!! Holy kittens! Broken dependancies, Ubuntu not offering the dependancies…. In a way, I don’t really want an OS that “just works”, but come on! LOL. (I’ll be documenting Linux woes here: http://www.geeknoob.com as well as anything else (read: Novell)… If anyone has encountered an issue that has come up on there, please drop a comment!)

          I still haven’t gotten sound to work, but that’s an issue for this weekend. (onboard sound… (I know, it was an x-mas present, I don’t buy mobo’s with onboard ANYthing!))

          It’s also a 64-bit system… I’ll probably wind up dualbooting distros. I can look up when FC 5 is due to come out… but how are they with actually making the due date?

        • #3094041

          No really correct about gaming

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Games?

          Actually the Amiga brought us the first 3d games (Elite and Core something or other).

          Also, it is a myth that Mac and Linux don’t have games. Mac has games ported to it and Linux either has a port so that the game will run native, or you can use Cedega (www.transgaming.com).

          I play WoW just fine on my Fedora Core 4 box at home…and I have a Gentoo box that sometimes I fire up Tux racer or NWN on.

        • #3094036

          tearsong

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Games?

          You need xine and libdvd_css. Try:
          http://xinehq.de/

        • #3093981

          Xine

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Games?

          Yeah, eventually I got the DVD to play last night… Not sure how to actually install drivers for sound tho… that’s a project for tonight…

          Also, I had bought a MadDog Dominator (i think) FX5500 (based off ATI) – said dual monitor & Linux supported. (It also touted LCD monitor support… *scratches head over that one*) However, no Linux drivers on the CD, and there’s only 1 physical monitor port on the card. I know in XP, theres something with a setting (never actually tried this though) where it looks like you can run 2 monitors with 1 vid card having 1 port… However I don’t see that in Linux… Any ideas?

        • #3110160

          ALSA or OSS?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Games?

          Are you using ALSA or OSS? That makes a difference.

          Have you checked to make sure that your distro doesn’t auto mute on install? This seems to be a problem with some distros (Fedora comes to mind).

          Other than that, you might need to install ALSA or OSS (depending on a few things)

          apt-get alsa should get you working.

        • #3263578

          This Just Proves my point.

          by tom.x.spencer ·

          In reply to Games?

          Microsoft listens and the other OS’s could care less. If more of the other OS makers would pay attention on to what people want. GAMES in this particualar topic. Microsoft would not be a giant. But, they are because they listen and make what consumers want. The rest of them MAC nad Linux are too busy to trying to conquest the business world when they should be focusing on little Johnny and Susie eating twinkies and playing DOOM……This is why Microsoft will always Win…….If the competitors would take the time to focus on who uses a PC and for what reasons and then attack those realms in the order of importance….starting at the home front not the business then some day we might have more offerings. But, all this bitching and moaning from most of you in here is not going to change a dang thing unless Red Hat, Novel, Mandrake, APPLE, and others figure this out….Just be glad we are not back in the day with paper and pencil…..

        • #3109704

          and I thank you

          by giannidalessismo ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          that’s the alpha and the omega of this discussion. I am outta here.

        • #3109698

          Windows is just a STEP

          by pmwpaul ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          in the progression of OS’s. From CP/M to DOS to Windows to ???

          As soon as somebody comes up with a better solution that’s “friendly” to the masses of users AND programmers, everybody will shift. Until then, many people will complain, moan, groan and try to push something, anything on us for various reasons.

          If IBM would open-source OS/2 and give it away like Linux, that would be an improvement. If SUN would modify their OS to run efficiently on PCs that would rock! But SUN makes their money selling their hardware at high prices. They can’t do that and stay in business using their current business model. If they modified their business model to be a software only product, they could own the OS business in 10 years. But lose money the first five. They can’t do it.

          So, until another better option becomes available, we’re stuck with windows.

          Paul

        • #3258244

          In the Long Run It won’t matter

          by jerome.koch ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          Yes, MS was found guilty of unfair biz practices by Justice Jackson, but the litigation was so long, so convuluted, and so many of the complaints were thrown out, that in the end MS was allowed to remain intact. There was no AT&T solution (no baby Gates).

          In the long run, the desktop will become less and less important. MSs profits on its cash cow (Windows Desktop Lic) will continue to decline. As more and more consumer apps are ported in internet appliances like the iPod, Play Station, Xbox, smart phones, etc… consumers will less and less reason to fire up thier Dells,IBMs, and HPs.

          Most of the future growth in the electronics world will come from the consumer side. The biz world will come later, but already devices like hand held data collection terminals are finding a bigger and bigger market.

          Fiveteen years from now, everyone will wonder what the big fuss was about. Competitors like Red Hat and Suse should take note. If they put all of thier eggs into a shrinking market (the Desktop OS Market), they will go the way of Digital, Wang, Wordstar, and Zenith.

        • #3080655

          Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          by smurgymac ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          thank god! someone actually speaking some common sense.

        • #3270698

          Help, can’t get along with CIO

          by actixkid ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          well, I hate to admit it, But I have had sucess just inviting them kinda’ micro-manager types out IN THE STREET, for a little Attitude adjustment session. the problem; although it works, I’m Not…think about it , is the pressure worth the $$$, well, sirs, that is for you to decide.

        • #2625428

          Microsoft suceeded….

          by ngokul25 ·

          In reply to You poor misguided soul…

          You are right.Windows cannot be the best OS ever. The success of Windows lies in the hands of Bill Gates who introduced Windows and started bundling software and created a monopoly of sorts. No body could stop him.

          At the right time he licensed it to every tom dick and harry companies and that started the Windows Mania among customers.

        • #3094249

          GEMS was a hot system

          by maldain ·

          In reply to fair enough

          I did love GEMS it was the window’s manager on the old 16 bit Atari systems running on top of TOS. I loved being able to tack together multiple systems. Or just being able to draw a circle without resorting to turtle graphics.

        • #3152004

          You are right about one thing

          by keydesignz ·

          In reply to fair enough

          You are correct about one thing, there are many good alternatives to Microsoft. It is just a pity that these companies don’t have the capital to push their marketing through. Therefore Linux & Apple will always be a niche player. Don’t mistake quality and innovation for cheap crap that has populated the marketplace on every clone PC. You must have an effigy of Bill around your house. You truly are a Windows fanboy. Do you bow down and pray to Bill waiting anxiously for the day he delivers Vista? Which is still going to be a pile of crap like every other version of windows. You are correct on the fact that Microsoft ‘steals’ everything, packages it up with their own brand label and sells it on the marketplace to make a squillion. Who cares what Microsoft sells? Bill could crap in a bag and people would buy it and think it is wonderful.

        • #3151986

          Bill could crap in a bag and people would buy it

          by wayne t ·

          In reply to You are right about one thing

          I *thought* that was where Windows came from !!!

          🙂

        • #2601995

          One more thing…

          by keydesignz ·

          In reply to fair enough

          Reading your excuse for a post makes me sick, spell check your sentences you moron.

        • #2623337

          where have you been?

          by rustyhorn ·

          In reply to fair enough

          IE7 has been out for like a year now and it does have tabs, which are one-click accessible, making it far superior to Firefox. Firefox also updates itself like every two weeks and that, my friend, is a bit of a pain in the butt. It’s not germaine to this thread, but so does Adobe Flash. They should all be killed. Because their software completely stops working every few days, making it impossible to watch youtube.

        • #3110104

          Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          by hebel ·

          In reply to The answer to that one is easy!

          Why is that when I see the Apple and that little leftover half bitten apple is when I’m watching a movie….
          Apple is still doing the same mistake she is been doing for the last 25 years, over pricing their product and if you manage to afford one you don;t know what to do with it since 90 percent of the software/hardware out there run on windows.
          Sure I hate Windows and it’s father, Father Bill but I get what I want form it and say I “I hate you” before I turn the darn thing off.
          Father Bill is my dope dealer I’m hooked on his products and I don’t want see him go away.

          There I said it.

        • #3108934

          Oh For Crying Out Loud

          by wlbowers ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          What ever your smoking, ya better keep right on with it.

          Any software package worth its salt is avaible for the Mac. And I
          am not talking about the millions of cheezy games that have
          been running around since the dark ages.

          Anything that is productive is avaible for the Mac. If you want to
          do serious graphics, sound and video you will see it on a Mac.
          Sheez you even see windows XP running in a window on the
          Mac.

          So go get yourself another Bud, Start up your flying tosters and
          live in your little dream world.

          All of my productivity is done on a Mac G4 with 2 gig of ram.
          The Athlon sits over there waiting for a customer to call me with
          a million questions and I use it to verify the settings and
          windows as I talk him through his problems.

          My Mac customers call me every now and then to order
          something.

          Lee

        • #3152000

          Maybe you are on drugs

          by keydesignz ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          I can’t name a single piece of crappy software that runs on windows that I can’t get for Mac. Even a lot of software which isn’t made for windows at all. A lot of software I can name is made superior for Mac. Tell me what software you are using which you think I can’t get for mac is superior or otherwise. Go on have a think about it, I know it is hard for you. Flying off useless comments when you don’t know jack shit, is not doing anyone any good.

        • #2481407

          You sir are an idiot

          by keydesignz ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          What a biased statement. If you actually used a Mac, which I
          doubt you ever have, you would know there are thousands of
          titles for the Mac in terms of software and for total cost of
          ownership, Mac’s are cheaper in the short term.

        • #3265724

          Precisely!

          by jcitizen ·

          In reply to The answer to that one is easy!

          Oh and I also always liked Ducatis! Trouble is I made the mistake of investing in a Harley and now I will never be able to afford a real bike!

        • #3109708

          what points have you presented?

          by giannidalessismo ·

          In reply to All your points are valid

          your arguments is based on a sales model: more people
          theoretically voted for GW Bush in ought four, so he MUST BE THE
          GREATEST US PRESIDENT EVER. This is 100% analogous to your
          ‘argument’.
          What straight facts? have you ever even audited a course in basic
          logic?

        • #3094245

          “Nobody would use a PC if microsoft hadn’t invented windows.”

          by wdewey ·

          In reply to All your points are valid

          This is the statement he was debunking. Windows/microsoft in no way made the PC market. They just managed to get a competitive edge over several other competitors which eventually turned into a monopoly.

          Bill

        • #3092519

          Microsoft didn’t sell anything.

          by beilstwh ·

          In reply to All your points are valid

          Actually in the beginning, microsoft made a deal with IBM to supply MSDOS for the IBM-PC for free. Because of this, microsoft got a large market share. Then when people had written for the interupts in MSDOS, they came out with windows which was NOT free. Since the old programs would not run on anything but MSDOS and because windows 3.1 at its core is an interface running MSDOS, windows became popular. Microsoft didn’t even write MSDOS, Gates bought it from another company for $50,000 dollars. Microsoft didn’t thrive because it is a great OS, it was because of timing. If someone else had gotten their OS into the IBM-PC, it would be the major O/S today.

        • #3092462

          Roger that…

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to Microsoft didn’t sell anything.

          The someone else who would have been there if he hadn’t screwed up his appointment book was Gary Kildall, owner of Digitial Research and the inventor of CP/M (the very first OS developed for a ‘micro-cpu’ (i4004) and which he created with Intel’s blessing while he was a contractor for them.

          I know that ‘Cringley’ said the price paid Seattle Micro for CP/M-86 was $50k. But I seem to recall $25k.

          What I’d never heard before was that Gates/Allen shrink-wrapped it for free! Where’d that come from?

        • #3092395

          Well it wasn’t actually Free

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Roger that…

          But it was included in the cost of the IBM PC’s with all the other MS$ Software so the people only saw the price of the complete package and not the price of the software component of the IBM PC’s.

          Many thought that they where getting something for nothing and this was pushed along by the sales people who pushed the idea that you where buying a complete package with no more to pay so quite a few people thought that the M$ software was a give away when actually IBM was paying M$ directly for it the MS DOS cost $80.00 a pop but the buyer never actually saw any price for software only the complete computer so they where under the mistaken impression that the Software was Free when it wasn’t.

          Well that applied to MS DOS and Word at least there was some software that was an optional extra.

          Col ]:)

        • #3093802

          You mean ‘bundled.’

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to Well it wasn’t actually Free

          understood.

        • #3092397

          Not quite right but fairly correct

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Microsoft didn’t sell anything.

          When IBM was working on their PC they went to Billy Boy asked him to sign a document that he wouldn’t discuss anything he heard in the meeting and then arranged to buy or have M$ supply software for their PC’s. At the time M$ didn’t make an OS of any kind so Bill Gates sent the IBM guys to Garry Killane [I’m not sure if the spelling is correct and I can’t be bothered looking it up as it is now Old News} at DR DOS and because IBM where so used to having their own way they got a shock when Garry’s wife refused to sign the waiver without knowing first even the most basic things about what the meeting was going to be about and the IBM Legal Eagles refused to even give the briefest of outlines until the waiver was signed they wouldn’t even tell her where they where from so she threw them out.

          M$ then in an attempt to save the deal that they had stitched together with IBM brought the Dirty Operating System from Sun Systems for $50,000 [though some others have mentioned a figure of $25.000 I’m not exactly sure as this was not in the companies Newsletters to their staff at the time} and bundled it with their other software at $80.00 a pop on every new IBM PC.

          The Dirty OS was actually written by someone who’s name I can no longer remember and the way that it was put together was he brought a manual of [i]DR DOS or PC DOS or whatever it was called at the time but it eventually ended its life as DR DOS or to give it it’s full name Inter Galactic Digital Research DOS[/i] and then proceeded to write the code for the commands in the manual and assembled his cheap version of DOS which he called [b]The Dirty Operating System[/b] as it lacked most of the functionality of its mother but it was much cheaper so it had a good following until people could afford the real thing DR DOS or whatever it was called at the time.

          Now I wasn’t at any of the meetings but as I was working for IBM at the time it was the joke of the entire Main Frame side of the business the way that the PC side was being stuck together with bailing wire and glue.

          Actually Windows 3X would run on any DOS platform and actually worked better on DR DOS than it did on MS DOS as there where far more switches available to make it much more functional. Little things like using XCOPY to copy to different size Media was possible which was something that wasn’t considered as important enough by M$ to bother rewriting the code to allow. There where so many difference in the command line that it wasn’t funny as MS DOS was so limited compared to other DOS applications then available all of which ran Windows 3 X better than MS DOS.

          It was M$ blind headlong development of Windows that caused the Divorce between IBM and M$. The main reason for this was that Windows was going to place such a load on the then current crop of PC’s that IBM considered it as a backward step which would cause their PC to perform much slower and cost more to produce as they would require much more memory and faster CPU’s to run as fast in Windows as they did in DOS and at the time IBM was facing some very stiff competition from the Clone side of the market which had jumped on the bandwagon and was using IBM type parts to make and sell PC’s at a much cheaper rate than IBM could afford to do. So when M$ wanted to make the cost of Hardware far more expensive the Head of the PC Division at IBM dug in his heals and refused to play. That was the first case that M$ lost but by no means the last. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3252644

          The selling of Windows

          by spareher ·

          In reply to Microsoft didn’t sell anything.

          The genius of Windows is not so much the code, though you have to admit that the goal of building an OS that will allow 95% of users to add any hardware or software they want to a system is pretty audacious, no the genius was realzing that software was a commodity. Prior to Bill software was created to support hardware (the IBM example). BG has reversed that and made the reason you (a general consumer, not the highly opinionated technical people who post here) buy a computer is for the software that you use. Once you get the hardware your primary insterest is in the apps you use on it, not necessarily how many hertz it runs per second. The MS genius continues to be that they are selling their OS rather than giving it away.

        • #3254191

          To be the big, hated, evil empire, you have live like one.

          by knd911 ·

          In reply to All your points are valid

          I remember in my former career as a computer sales person, I ounce asked some of our product reps for AST, NEC and Compaq why they were not using OS/2 when it was so much better than MS windows?? Their response was in a nutshell.. it will not sit well with Microsoft if they started to offer other OS and will loose all licensing rights. Its one thing to be the greatest because people chose you over all others and another thing to threaten your way into a monopoly. There is nothing great about being a bully or public enemy #1. Just ask the Americans. By the way.. I have a friend working for Microsoft in Seattle and she told me they work on Macs.

        • #3080855

          What licensing rights?

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to To be the big, hated, evil empire, you have live like one.

          It is good business practice to protect your company’s intellectual property and assets. M$ obviously offered a good deal to the company you worked for, and they probably would of lost money if they pissed of M$. All about contracts. If your company you worked for had a contract with OS/2 people, then they would of probably sold PC’s with OS/2 on it.

          No business should have to feel obligated to promote another business’s product for free, so it’s not really bulling or being public enemy #1, It’s about business.

          Knowing your competition is also a good business practise, It’s probably to M$ benefit that the workers are using Macs.

          If your goal isn’t to make your business successful, you could go out of business. All the evil stuff M$ do, keeps their business alive and successful, and every competing business has the same capacity to do evil stuff, just the same a M$.

        • #3207352

          DO this or else is not a contract.. atleast not in the free world.

          by knd911 ·

          In reply to What licensing rights?

          DO this or else is not a contract or a deal.. atleast not in the free world. when M$ says you will not use any other OS except for our OS or you will not not be allowed to use any of our products, its an ultimatum. its an act of blackmail. Its about having the freedom to decide what you want to do with your business. its about the freedom to decide the product you want or provide the service you want. if you are an American, that term freedom should mean a lot more to you than this because your government has thousands of your people dying every year in an attempt to bring this same freedom to others all over the world. Quite ironic to see that the biggest mordern day corporate terrorists like Microsoft and Walmart are all home grown and made in America.

      • #3109821

        Close, but no cigar…

        by iceman52 ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        Alan Kay, Research Fellow at Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) lead the development of a new concept in man-to-machine interface, which then spawned the acronym – GUI. Until then, all computers used a video interface confined to the ASCII character set.

        Kay theorized that if the paradigm for user interaction could be shifted from “process” orientation (command line step-wise instructions) to that of an “object” orientation (generalized graphical icon representing the objective), then it would enable untrained users to “discover” their way to using the machine productively and more powerfully than yet imagined. In the early 80’s that was other-worldly, especially because the compute horsepower necessary to support a GUI was mini-computer class. He did it anyway on the Xerox Alto and Star workstations.

        Xerox did invite the leading PC manufacturers (not software vendors like Microsoft) in to see their invention, ostensibly to effect manufacturing economies of scale to the hardware so that the concept could proliferate in the market. Xerox was rather altruistic in those days.

        Among companies invited were DEC, HP and Apple. DEC said they’d already done this with their software product known as All-In-One, an early office automation/groupware suite but had difficulty getting their mini-computer users to step up to the very expensive graphical terminals that were required. HP glibly pronounced the stuff irrelavent to business because they felt that real business computers were transaction oriented and a CUI (character user interface) was optimal for constraining creative adventurism by users. That may have been the very first stupid decision HP ever made.

        Steve Jobs, however, kept his own counsel and took the concept back to the hive. He was still ruminating over the failed Apple III and was looking for the next big thing. Xerox’s GUI was a paradigm shift completely consistent with his philosophy in personal computers. Sure, computers were proven transaction systems, but he was more interested in changing the world. He secretly opened his own skunk works off the Apple campus, hoisted the skull and crossed bones and eventually delivered the Lisa. The machine freaked the PC world but was too slow penetrating becuase it was just too expensive at $12,500/ea.

        In the meantime, IBM finally figured out why the Apple II was encroaching on their installed base of glass houses at the Big 5 accounting firms and announced the IBM 5150 aka IBM PC (Personal Computer) in December 1981. That day instantly legitimized all PCs, but especially wintel spec machines, as legitimate business tools. THAT was the birth of mindlessness in PC platform choices.

        Then in January 1984, Jobs finally got the unit price of the Lisa below $800. He called it Macintosh and the GUI got traction. And Jobs later got Kay to become his Research Fellow living on some mountain top in Santa Cruz. Wherefor art thou now, Alan Kay?

        Gates&Balmer stole the GUI technology from Apple during their technology exchange on the original MS-Word project (which first shipped with the new Lisa) and cut their engineering teeth on it while they were under contract with IBM to co-develop OS/2. What they didn’t get tuned for years was the same problem that Kay had already worked out at PARC but that AT&T comletely missed in their own version (7300 PC) and Linux is stumbling around with now – orthoginality.

        But that’s another story…

        • #3108561

          awesome reply

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Close, but no cigar…

          Thanks.

          So when can you tell the other story? whats orthoginality? I have goggled it, dictionary.com-ed it, wikipidia-ed it and got nothing. Got leeks of information about quantum mechanics and logic structure and testing and this and that, but nothing on what it actually is. maybe you could post a link?

          Thanks

          NZ_Justice

        • #3109196

          Orthoginality

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to awesome reply

          This is one property describing the machine<>human interface. This property refers to the degree to which humans can intuit or “guess” the flow of command sequence needed to drive the machine productively, thereby mitigating training/help.

          It is a subset of Ergonomics – that universe of properties governing the human<>machine interface.

          Alan Kay and his team at PARC mapped out the ergonomics of vision-capable humans<>video-capable computers. They innovated the desktop metaphor, the graphical icon as the representation for a process/tool and the mouse as a pointing device. Logitech, then a Swiss manufacturer, protyped the mouse.

          Most students of computer ergonomics (me included) consider the Mac OS X GUI to be the most orthoginal, ergonomic implementation of Kay’s priciples for a personal computer to-date.

        • #3265727

          We engineer geeks called the Logitec …

          by jcitizen ·

          In reply to Orthoginality

          device a digitizer but of course it works similar to the mouse except it had field coils in it with a crosshair pointer and a magnetic or other wise reactive plotter board that went with it.

          Didn’t Bell Labs give the mouse to Jobs and Co. because they couldn’t figure out what to do with it? Or am I thinking of another corporation?

        • #3265728

          At that same time in 1984…..

          by jcitizen ·

          In reply to Close, but no cigar…

          IBM introduced their first “laptop” called the convertable. It was a dinosaur at the start compared with what Zenith and Toshiba were introducing but you could not get your hands on one of those because the government and the IRS were snapping up every one the factory was putting out.

          The Convertable used a weird motherboard architecture that reminded me of some of Motorola’s work on other designs. But it used a special version of DOS that was co-developed with Gates and like you said it had a GUI application that was really an overlay not an OS. But it did almost everything the MAC GUI did but very crude and simple – I wrote a batch file that would enter the current time and select the application which was called APPSEL.exe and what looked a lot like a pre-Windows GUI would boot up.

          It automated my office so well that I resigned my position and told the staff that they didn’t need me anymore because any moron could run the office using the computer. And I did! But a caveman fear of microcomputers gripped the ARNG community because the Adjutant General didn’t understand computers and tried to have them banned from the system!!! Talk about Neandertals – (with two stars on their shoulders too)!

      • #3109816

        Microsoft actually wrote Apple OS

        by massiej ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        Hal 9000,

        You’re correct that Xerox invented and first made use of the desktop GUI and also the mouse.

        However, in the early days Steve Jobs farmed out much of the code-writing for the early Apple OS to Microsoft. Later, Microsoft and Apple split ways when Gates suggested improvements to the Apple GUI (according to his vision) which Steve Jobs would not accept.

        If you can find a copy of Triumph of the Nerds (a three-part video series about the early days of personal computing by Robert X. Cringely, the 12th employee at Apple Computer, < http://www.pbs.org/cringely/ >) it will help fill in some of the details.

        • #3109692

          revisionist fantasy

          by giannidalessismo ·

          In reply to Microsoft actually wrote Apple OS

          wow. a fiction created by a disgrunteled drone, but, it’s the gospel
          truth! You have also confused the terms WRITTEN and CONSULTED.
          There is a discipline available to even a nerd, it’s called logic.

        • #3094105

          Don’t You Wish

          by wlbowers ·

          In reply to Microsoft actually wrote Apple OS

          Apple had Windows programmers over helping to code works for
          the mac. And suddenly gates was doing windows. Yea!

          Read up on Apple’s history.

          http://www.kernelthread.com/mac/oshistory/

          Lee

        • #3110064

          See “Close, but no cigar…” above

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to Microsoft actually wrote Apple OS

          I saw the series on PBS and don’t remember the claim that MS coded any part of the OS. BTW, Cringley is a pen name.

          I do remember the actual events in the early 80s and recall that they split because Gates used the technology (needed by MS to code the original MS-Word that Jobs wanted for the Lisa or Mac(?) launch) to co-develop OS/2.

        • #3109573

          It had to be the Mac Launch

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to See “Close, but no cigar…” above

          Lisa was the Xerox Prototype project with the GUI and resource sharing over a 1000 networked PC with a GUI interface running on a Unix Background.

          Col ]:)

        • #3109344

          Maybe…

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to It had to be the Mac Launch

          Lisa was the progenitor of Macintosh. Both were designed and manufactured by Apple.

          The Xerox machines were the Alto and the Star. I remember because, at the time, I had exclusive distribution rights to the Corvus Concept – a Motorola 32-bit processor based diskless workstation with a 15″ pivoting screen that was hardware implemented for graphics and was promised to soon look like the PARC machines. Jobs blew our plans, God love him.

        • #3134624

          Yes and No

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Maybe…

          Lisa was not completed before Mac was started. And Lisa was started before the infamous visit to Xerox.

          Lisa was more focused on the business market. It was absurdly expensive ($10K US in 1982 dollars – whats that now?), had terminal emulators, bigger screen.

          The Mac was the computer for “the rest of us”. It learned from the Lisa, but was more focussed on individual users and small offices.

          James

        • #3133219

          Wes and No?

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to Yes and No

          Howdy, James.

          I wasn’t in Cupertino when Kay invited Jobs, Olsen and the HP guys. But my version was the scuttlebutt in the trades at the time. Wosniak did come to Fairbanks to share some insights with us northern geeks around that time and it jived with my story. He was the first one I ever heard say “the network is the computer.”

          You seem to distinguish the two machines by their market targets. Actually, I think this segmentation was just a normal rollout plan that spanned 2 generations, i.e. Jobs would intro the product concept (a consumer priced Xerox Alto) first to the business community because his first try would necessarily involve less integrated, and therefor more expensive, components. During the next 2 years, he’d learn about what real people don’t like and correct these things in his Mark II highly integrated version – the Macinosh. Remember, Lisa went away after the Mac arrived. Lisa=$12,500; Macintosh=$800.

          So, one might think they were distinct markets, but in my experience, they were always the same market – everybody who liked object orientation (Kay’s GUI interface) rather than the process orientation of the traditional command line (CUI interface).

          The new Intel architecture extends these integration economies of scale into the next generation of Macs. I think this is going to be just awesome – manufacturing economies of scale comparable to Wintel, power and stability of UNIX, the Mach kernel, the worlds most powerful GUI and a business leader that is as visionary in anticipated market behavior as well as technology innovations. Lets not forget that Wintel didn’t adopt GUI, DVD, CD-ROM or 3.5″ floppies until Jobs made them standard on Apple machines.

          The question is whether Microsoft hasn’t already so thoroughly exhausted the consumer market with its reputation for self-destructive software that Vista will lose it’s lemming advantage at your local Best Buy – or for that matter, can Jobs successfully adopt the Dell direct marketing model before HP does?

          This ought to be real interesting, no?

          cheers,
          jat

      • #3109710

        thank you

        by giannidalessismo ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        *Now if I remember correctly Apple got their GUI to the market
        first and were the PC to own for the illiterate computer user and
        were there long before Windows hit the market with Windows.*

        and beyond the history lesson: I have to tweak Windows down to
        a nub at 50% higher clock rate and equal memory to get to
        around 80% of the performance of my Mac OUT OF THE BOX. I
        have ne’er had to dick around with OSX; 9 was somewhat like
        Windowz in this regard, but most of those issues are resolved.
        What actual operational arguments for ‘the best OS ever’ have
        been presented here?
        Comic Book Man sez, “Worst Operating system EVER”

        • #3108549

          What would be the point?

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to thank you

          Microsoft have a massive hard to navigate web site, with a lot of information. I can leave the operational benefits of there OS to them because they know it best.

          http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/evaluation/default.mspx

          This link can tell you some benefits of the OS with out negative impacting on other OS’s but it is extremely biased towards Microsoft.

          When you get into hardware performance to OS, you move away from OS, and you are looking at Intel, AMD and what ever chip-set MAC uses etc.. Then people chuck in arguments like, I run a linux OS on a p100 32 MB ram faster than an windows xp OS running on a celeron 1ghrz PC with 64 mb ram doing what I have no idea, maybe just loading up.

          If you buy a game then the minimum requirement hardware jumps, then you can go into graphics cards and the amount of tweaking you have to do in any OS to get the game performing at maximum.

          I run a celeron with the cpu thrashed at %100 all the time, If I move to Linux this could solve my problem, but then I have the choice to download a million Linux apps to perform task I would perform in windows and then they have to be configured, then etc… it can go on and on.

          If I put Linux on my Ipod I would get more performance out of it then with the current MAC Operating System. Windows because it is not open source can not be currently be rewritten or configured to run on my Ipod but if M$ released an Ipod operating system it would probably run shit. But I just use the standard operating interface because that’s what it came with.

          To go down the hardware, performance and specs path, I recommend starting a new thread and post the link in this thread so it can be found by people surfing through this thread.

          NZ_Justice 😀

      • #3108737

        Oh Boy, here we go :)

        by james speed ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        Microsoft is a HUGE MEGA CORPORATION – without Windows we would be back in the stone ages in regards to worldwide connectivity. Sure, they stole code, they muscled out competition. Was it right? NO.. But, here we are. 6 out of 10 households have computers (or something like that). The internet has changed life as we know it, just as old Henry Ford did back at the turn of the century. Ford pulled shenanagins just like Microsoft in its days.

        I started back in with the good ole “Trash 80″… i’ve seen it all just like many of you. Some of you have never seen a DOS machine (Native) other than the remnants with the CMD.EXE in windows. I doubt many remember the HUGE 8 inch floppy disks or when you had to boot with a floppy and insert programs the same way….back when 64 was a WHOPPING amount of RAM.

        All you Unix, MAC guys out there will fight to the death saying your OS is better. Maybe it is… but thats not the point of the original post. Windows HAS become the core of the industry – right or wrong, good or bad…there is absolutely NO DENYING it. What could have been or SHOULD have been is now a footnote in history.

        The question is – where are we going from here…good or bad, right or wrong?

        • #3133368

          Sure?

          by alxnsc9 ·

          In reply to Oh Boy, here we go :)

          Dear friend,

          Some may be back “in the stone ages”, and some may be not… although some remember all these one foot disquettes and “DOS-machines” (BTW, there were never DOS- machines but various kinds and models of machines capable to execute DOS-Code, and not only Control Data Corporation – DOS code…).
          What is undoubtly clear is just the opposite to what you state – the OS “Windows” is out of any industry, as it is an office tools’ OS, and is not the core of anything but just of itself. It is not MS to blame – MS made it for office use and not for any industry…
          No need for “Unix and MAC gyus”… “to fight to the death” – enough is enough – and clear.

          Best regards,
          alx

      • #3133064

        Parc Place was a great place for me to work

        by x-marcap ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        I was one of the early guys at Parc Place and at AT&T – Bell Labs and eventually to AT&T services. I am a UNIX Admin today. You quite a bit of it right. Woz & Jobs were around quite a few times.

        Woz was particularly welcome. I will not comment on Gates.

        • #3133037

          they left variables with TJS (my initials)…

          by wayne t ·

          In reply to Parc Place was a great place for me to work

          hahahaha! great stories, TJS ….

          Thank you for sharing… 🙂

          Woz was a nice, brillant Bloke.. Jobs was Brilliant.
          Billy made a lot of money.
          (I never met him personally – but then, I *was* given the option
          *grin*)

      • #3104630

        HAL is correct on this one

        by nascargirl9 ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        …not meaning this is the only one you are correct on (lol)…
        I do believe this is where/when all of the Bill Gates bashing started? many felt/feel that he “stole” the whole concept of Windows from Apple(?). I’m not stating that I think he stole anything, I’m just remembering back when I first got into computers, how much of a hell-raising their was about Gates.

        I am a fan and user of windows and prefer it over anything else (at the moment), but if the truth be known, Windows did not come first.

        This has turned out to be which came first, the chicken or the egg!! I suppose this will always be an argument for some strange reason. Some just can’t accept the facts and want to put the gloves oon..or in this case, the fire proof gloves! 🙂

        Anyway HAL, great reply.

      • #3143953

        Yes but…

        by koke ·

        In reply to If I remember correctly

        Hal,

        Your time line seems in the ballpark but…and you mentioned them, the poor decisions by Xerox and Apple is what enable Microsoft to become the power that it is. It was the pre-cursor to what everyone considers open source today, not that it shared its code with everyone, but that it allowed 3rd parties to write software for Windows. Apple waited way way too long to do that with software and of course hardware (they still haven’t done that yet have they?) So…to encapsulate – When IBM allowed clones to be made…and Microsoft allowed third party apps…Apple was sunk…. well they were slowed tremendously

    • #3099879

      And next…

      by noyoki ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      He will tell us that Gates invented the internet.

      Oh, and what do the tags of sex, girls, bondage, etc. have to do with this post?

      • #3099045

        RE and next..

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to And next…

        Gates is not realvent to the greatness of the windows OS. And he didn’t create the internet.

        Oh, and nothing they are just tags.

        • #3099008

          Well in that case

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to RE and next..

          Why are the Tags Retracted?

          Col ]:)

        • #3098991

          Cause he likes…

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Well in that case

          to confuse people.

        • #3098950

          I can put them back if you want.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Well in that case

          and if I can remember what they were. I removed them off the thread after I posted that reply.

          Why? It’s a long/short story.

        • #3098990

          Lol,

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to RE and next..

          How can Gates not be relevant, when he’s the one that did the “dirty work” in making it (in your opinion) “great”?

        • #3098952

          Gates is nothing

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Lol,

          just a name. I don’t use bill gates as an OS, I don’t buy Bill Gates applications. He’s a guy who made a lot of money. good for him. The OS is far evoled since Gates was around.

        • #3098916

          Sorry you’ve lost me there

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Gates is nothing

          Are we actually talking about Bill Gated The person in Charge of Product Development at Micro Soft? Or is there some other Bill Gates around who has made heaps of money off the backs of others and run them all into the ground?

          When MS lost its Anti Trust Case Billy boy had to resign as CEO of MS and that job ended up with Steve Balmer and Billy Boy was put back in charge of Product Development so who exactly do you think gets all the kudos for 2003 in all its forms and will no doubt be held responsible for Vista or is that Visa when it eventually gets released in a [b]Beta Form for sale to the General Population?[/b]

          You may not use a OS named Bill Gates but here you are pushing that Windows is so great and it is Bill Gates who is in charge of developing it so what’s in a name Windows could just as easily be called Bill Gates version 10 or Vista after all a Rose by any other name would still smell like a Rose and Windows by any other name would still be a second rate OS full of bugs that constantly need to be plugged.

          I vividly remember the 2003 ES launch and being told that this was the best strongest OS that MS had ever built and was so secure that it was then impossible to break. Of course 2 weeks latter the first Hot Patch was released for it but they obviously didn’t know about this problem when they where attempting to brain wash us all as to just how secure it was did they? 😀 😀 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3098808

          My Bad! Sorry

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Sorry you’ve lost me there

          They are the same person. I’m just tired I guess.

          I got nothing.

      • #3258955

        And next…

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to And next…

        He will tell us theat Bil Gates PERSONALLY invented the PC, and – well computing in general. He will most likely also state that networking would be impossible without MS, and that MS is a great thing for the internet. He already stated that there would be no PC’s unless MS had come to our rescue.
        As far as I know, BG personally invented 4 bit FAT, which immediately went into obsolescence because it was too small. He completely missed the net, because he’d much better like if we used the MS Network which was part of the DOS-shell W/95.

        In the W/95 welcome pages MS use the wording “upgrade from OS/2 to W/95”, which made me first roll on the floor laughing, and on and second though made me feel very sorry for the millions of people beliving such stuff.

        I usually don’t pick on spellings, grammar and such things in forums. But it is noteworthy, that these MS fanatics always write everything in one long sentence without any punctuation, and every second word is misspelt.

        rgds
        Peter

        • #3259895

          I have nothing against Linux.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to And next…

          Yes my spelling and grammar are crap.

          I just recently discovered the spelling function of the Google toolbar.

          They don’t have a grammar option yet.

          The post isn’t about Bill Gates and what he did or didn’t do.

          AS far as I have been made aware of, there is no linux\unix application that aren’t also made avalible for windows OS.

          My skill is not gramma, if yours is, just point out my mistakes and I will correct them.

        • #3108493

          Who mentioned Linux ?

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to I have nothing against Linux.

          I didn’t.
          It is impossible to unlink Bill Gates and Windows, ‘everybody’ knows who he is. Who knows who’s the boss of IBM, or Oracle? Ask anybody in the street if they can mention the boss of MS and Google, and they’ll mention Gates.
          He’s ‘Chief Software Architect’, he designs the stuff, the rest are just servants.

    • #3098840

      The Best OS Is……

      by garydw ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      ….the one that works for you.

      • #3098801

        I’ll buy that for a dollar!

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to The Best OS Is……

        🙂

        • #3109755

          Then you probably won’t be using windows

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to I’ll buy that for a dollar!

          I doubt you can buy it for a dollar (not legally anyhow).

          I have to concede this point in your argument. I do keep coming back to windows. I play with Linux alot, use it for a few things, andreallylike some of the community philosophy behind it. But when it comes down to it, when I need to just get things done, and quickly. I always wind up back on my Windows Box.So you may have a bit of a point there.

    • #3259794

      What do you mean by ‘best’?

      by fcometa ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Best as in what? Greatest as in what?

      Maybe you should have said “Nobody would use a PC if Microsoft wouldn’t have ‘invented’ MSDOS”. The IBM PC and compatibles got the big share of the market not with Windows in it, but DOS. So maybe DOS should be named the greatest OS ever.

      Maybe because of your ‘childhood accident’ are you uncapable of accomplishing a thing in Linux. I’m only 34 and have done quite a lot with it, being the only OS my job computer (this was a personal choice of mine).

      Mac is not Windows. Gnu’s Not Unix.

      What did the internet run on? Ever get to see the Unix-like login when connecting to the internet, when you used to use Trumpet and Winsock? Guess you don’t remember that. Anyways, Winsock came about in 1993, ten years after the Internet came into the civilian domain.

      Whether an application is worth using is pretty subjective. How many applications in Linux do you know that are not ‘worth’ using? Oh, I forgot, you’re still not done yet with your lifetime to know…

      I agree that you are trying to start something here. I know that you can’t be as superficial and empty as your post seems to show. You should know better that that. But I also could not resist a reply. That Windows is the most used right now, that it has been stuffed down our throats for better or worse, it’s true.

      You may call it the greatest, or the best, but please specify. The best selling? Or great as in the Roman Empire?

    • #3259757

      It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

      by nz_justice ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      In my finte wizdom, I thought that, becuase this was a windows forum, I would have evrey one agreeing with me (of course that is never the case). I like linux and am keen to give it a try, I’ve actualy been trying to pay for linux (how about that), but the linux I want is not for sale anymore in my country (NZ) (ten software releases only, how slack is that). It’s avalible in other countries but they wont ship here (bastards). I know how secure and stable and fast unix\linux can be, but it is not windows (there is some big doc on “linux is not windows” you can find a link too it here in the TR, it’s in another thread). I work with windows and there products every day, so windows is virtualy sholved done my throat, and in my older years I have learned the art of acceptance. and there for, I can blindly say that windows is the best OS every, but I can’t clarify what best is.
      I say it’s the best OS ever cuz I use it every day along with millions of other people in the world, check out http://www.microsoft.com for a plug on why windows is so great.

      • #3259747

        Better use of neurons

        by fcometa ·

        In reply to It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

        Now that I read the “bullying and discrimination and harassment in forums” thread, I know I can’t expect more than mindless comments from you (although your post alone does a good job at it, too). Thanks for saving me the effort… I have better uses for my neurons.

      • #3259690

        First time I’ve agreed with you

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

        Blind and limited. Do you also admit you are limiting yourself, that you are donning your blinkers each morning ?
        Why ?
        Do you like being ignorant ?

        You could get several distributions of linux, without even trying too hard.
        Go buy the book Linux for dummies and you get one with it! I did. Got me a job along with my other experience then I got two solid years on the platform, doing something real with it. Not hard all you have to so is get off your arse.

        • #3259114

          And I thought I could be harsh on me.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to First time I’ve agreed with you

          ouch. this might interest you.

          https://www.auldhouse.co.nz/content/default.aspx?id=c3716cbe-05c4-481d-b6ea-71f890d986be

          I admit I’m just to darn lazy and I like easy. Windows is easy. being easy can make windows the greatest OS ever.

        • #3259098

          But Windows isn’t easy

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And I thought I could be harsh on me.

          It’s a lot of work in constantly patching locking down and whatever else you have to do to keep it even part way secure and working in some semblance like it’s supposed to. 🙁

          At every MS [b]Certified Partners[/b] meeting that I attend I’m always told that I’m expecting way too much from Windows as I started on a Unix platform and I keep comparing Windows to Unix even the MS Techs tell me this so at the very least they accept that Windows doesn’t suit everything and really is only for the Desktop where you have a safe environment behind a [b]safety blanket[/b] not of MS making. :p

          Anyway what version of Linux do you want I’ll get you a copy sent to NZ without raising a sweat and if you like you can pay for the postage and blank Cd’s. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3258940

          How is windows easy ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to And I thought I could be harsh on me.

          Have you ever written an application and watched memory dribble out of the air vents as it runs and tried to find the leak. Have you upgraded and watched your code break because ms thought it would be a good idea to revamp something that had nothing to do with the application you are writing. Have you ever sat down and tried to find out why every now and then for some reason best known to itself your wonderfully coded beautifully designed super duper app falls on it’s arse with an access violation. I don’t find it easy at all. Things that shouldn’t be easy such as picking up and running foreign code on the fly are, things that should be such as displaying the content of a table in a grid are extraordinarily painful.
          Have you used MS flex grid component, it auto justifies text by CELL based on whether the first character is a digit so you get crap like this

          Location
          My House……
          …..51 MyRoad

          Now who f’ing designed that, who QA’d it. I’d be upstairs with management for tea and biscuits and if made that dumb a mistake and the customer saw it.

          It might be easy to use, it’s certainly familiar, but making something useful out of it is way harder than it should be. This means everything that you like about it gets harder and harder to do, costs more and more and performs worse and worse.

        • #3260108

          Just think of this Tony

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to How is windows easy ?

          [b]VISA[/b] is coming and you’ll have a whole new series of problems and lots of code to rewrite because the so called [b]”Software Engineers at M$”[/b] have messed the entire thing up again. 🙂

          Doesn’t the job security that M$ gives you make you happy? You just know that you’ll be producing sloppy code to work on a sloppy OS that really never had a place on the desktop in the first place. IBM had it right when they went through that messy divorce with M$ all because of Windblows. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3260017

          Can’t wait. I’ve a total

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Just think of this Tony

          rewrite to .NET achitecture and C# coming up as well, though to be honest that will probably make the task of coping wth any impact from Vista, 2003 Server and MSSQL 2005 a bit easier, in that it will all be new and I won’t have a lot of compatibility issues to deal with.
          Expecting to go a tad greyer in the next six months or so though.

        • #3259956

          Tony you might get a laugh out of this one

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Can’t wait. I’ve a total

          On the Friday Yuk I posted a link to a MS article where MS is pushing the .Net into Financial institutions.

          I didn’t know if I should laugh or cry when I read it. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3258731

          They MS are going into direct competition

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Can’t wait. I’ve a total

          with my firms american division now. We do tax software for accountants. They aren’t the most computer literate bunch I’ve ever met, but they are tax literate and waiting for service pack one so the can file their clients returns is something they aren’t having.
          Not to mention it bundling up all their client’s financial details and posting it to ms so they can figure out what when wrong.

        • #3259973

          and someone has to mention…

          by mschachner ·

          In reply to How is windows easy ?

          MFC? arrgh.

          I can’t count the number of times I’ve read, re-read, and read again an MSDN article that’s telling me that this object should do what I’m expecting it to do and its not doing it becuase you need to init another objects member var to some other CASTED object you didn’t think you needed becuase it has absolutely nothing to do with you trying to get done.

          If you understood what I just said then you’re a natural for MFC. Go for it.

          For the arguement that Windows is the best OS. No. Not even close. Having supported all three in my time OS9.4 was probably the best OS (though only a little less buggy then MS ME/98/98se[it’s direct competition]).

          Being a fan forever of the command line I’m far more prone to toss my hat in the Linux circle for best OS(Mandrake for install and ease of use, RH for compatibility). Yes, there is a very steep learning curve to it but, should you get into trouble, you can always ‘man -k whatever’ and look it up.

          I’ve gone farther down two roads I guess I shouldn’t have.

          Windows OS best? No. Greatest? Only with one qualifier – Distribution. Greatest distro. That’s it.

        • #3258741

          MFC

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to and someone has to mention…

          Mother F***ing Crap
          Have you read the .NET CLR spec
          Upcasting, Sidecasting and Downcasting are the terms they use, all under the common umbrella of Access Violation,I should think. Learn from their mistakes don’t they.

          Side casting very useful, the farmyard animals explanation of polymorphism.
          For our next trick
          A barking sheep !

          Suppose upcasting is useful for a mute swan though.
          LOL

      • #3259602

        BUY Linux??

        by noyoki ·

        In reply to It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

        Wait. Why would you want to BUY something you can download for FREE? The only distro’s I’ve had trouble getting are the Enterprise versions. And those are ment for businesses, not personal use.

        • #3259113

          Yes buy linux

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to BUY Linux??

          If you can provide me with a link to where I can download the linux kit, I wanted to buy, see http://playstation2-linux.com/. then I’ll go ther and download it.

        • #3259094

          OH now I see

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes buy linux

          You don’t actually want a copy of Linux but a games version of Windows to run on a Play Station which is what Windows really excels at being a games platform.

          Yes I do agree that in that case Windows is the Ultimate as it will play games all day long and only run into a little bit of trouble when you load something new that corrupts the various drivers and requires a reload. 😀

          But that is the game makers fault not Windows per say.

          The reason that you can not get that particular version imported into NZ is to do with copyright issues not anything else as Sony has launched Legal Action against this particular Distro and things are being held up until that action is settled.

          Col ]:)

        • #3259084

          http://wwwnew.mandriva.com/en

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to OH now I see

          I don’t think windows or MS are involved in the Sony PS2 Linux Dev kit. And I don’t think I would be interested in a windows dev kit for Sony ps2. bloodshed dev c++ is a decent enough tool to explore game development in Windows. And if I had the hardware I would run a Linux OS. I can get a copy of Linux no problem (have a peer who is heavily into Linux).

          Have you heard of mandriva? from their site you can buy Linux for 44,90 euros. but because it’s open source, it looks like you can get it free if you download the latest fedora.

        • #3259008

          Mandriva is the old Mandrake Linux

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to http://wwwnew.mandriva.com/en

          They have reorganized and gathered another Open Source company into the fold and changed their name.

          The good thing with them however is that they have a massive Data Base of available programs that you can access if you wish to join up with them. Last time I looked it was about $45.00 US per month to be a short term member and while it is possible to get most of the applications elsewhere at the old Mandrake Club it was all organized and laid out so you could easily find things.

          I think that their latest is something like 10.1 or 10.3 but essentially it’s the same as the Mandrake version but just with a new name on the Cd’s. The desktop version is free to download but the Enterprise Version you’ll have to buy it’s capable of running a 2K CPU Blade Server which is something that Windows can not support.

          As a Product Partner I have access to all their software and it’s incredible although mostly used in Europe.

          Turbo Linux on the other hand is being developed in the Asian Countries and is their attempt to answer MS Windows currently it’s not available for download but from the trial version that I’ve got it looks interesting.

          Col ]:)

        • #3107232

          A little off topic

          by bigal66nz ·

          In reply to Mandriva is the old Mandrake Linux

          I know this might be a lttle off topic but while you guys are here. I would like a copy of mandriva linux cause i use to use mandrake and really like it, but I am unable to find a copy I can download that is for my 64 bit processor. Can you guys help me out?

        • #3109851

          Currently it’s not on any of the US Linux Sites

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Mandriva is the old Mandrake Linux

          The latest that I’ve found is 10.1 on Planet Mirror.

          But if you are willing to splash out and pay the grand total of 5.00 Euros you can download the 32 & 64 Bit versions direct from Mandriva Store at

          http://store.mandriva.com/product_info.php?cPath=117&products_id=285&osCsid=caa50b00585572a166765093ed5fa190

          A more through search of the European sites may reveal a download site but honestly for 5 Euros I wouldn’t bother.

          Col

        • #3109823

          Mandriva download sites..

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Mandriva is the old Mandrake Linux

          http://wwwnew.mandriva.com/en/downloads/mirrors/2006iso

          the mirror list for the latest version free download, in both x86 [ ia32 ] and 64 bit

        • #3259082

          If it is based on Linux…

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Yes buy linux

          it MUST be available for download. Period. That’s what open-sourced means. Any derivative works MUST be available for free.

          This doesn’t mean they have to make it easy.

          Try calling them, saying you want to dl it. See what they say. If they won’t let you, you have grounds to go back to the open-source community, Linus Torvald included, and raise holy hell.

        • #3258922

          RE: If it is based on Linux…

          by csnuts ·

          In reply to If it is based on Linux…

          “…That’s what open-sourced means. Any derivative works MUST be available for free….”
          This is not exactly a true statement. I checked the link posted and the kit contains hardware and software. The software pack contains two discs; Disc 1 includes the Sony proprietary works and Disc 2 contains all of the 3rd Party programs, including the Linux distro, with various license structures. The Sony software is designed to run in a Linux Environment, but is not Open Source and is not released under any Open Source license. The Sony SDK is not a derivative work; it is designed to run on the Linux kernel, big difference. Here?s a quote from http://www.linux.org/dist/index.html, ?With time, individuals, university students and companies began distributing Linux with their own choice of packages bound around Linus’ kernel. This is where the concept of the “distribution” was born. Today, creating and selling Linux distributions is a multi-million dollar business??

          One can also purchase commercial licenses from many Open Source programs, MySQL for one, and then sell any software created using the MySQL distro for a profit and not release the source. Open Source does not automatically equal free depending on the license structure used for distribution of the created software.

          Hope this clears this up a bit for you as far as distributions are concerned.

        • #3260133

          That’s what I get for not reading…

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to RE: If it is based on Linux…

          I hadn’t really read the site (too much to do!), and had assumed that it was JUST the Linux OS, but on a PS. Meaning just the Linux code he wanted. Not the proprietary stuff built to run on it.

          Also, you aren’t really buying the software per say, when purchasing Open Source. You are buying licenses for support, etc. They make their bread and butter on providing a service. Not the software. Sure you can pay for support for Linux, but if you wanted just the OS, you can just download it or just pay shipping costs to have a CD sent to you.

          It was my understanding, that if you take code under the GPL (GNU?) license, any derivative code had to be published under the same license… Meaning that, if you took Ubuntu, opened it up, created Ubuntava (or something), then proceeded to share it with others, sure you can charge whatever you like. But the code HAD to be made available to the public without cost.

          If you created a picture using Gimp, the pic itself does not have to be Open Sourced, but if you made “Pimp” editing Gimp source code, it would. (Hence the bone of contention with Sony DRM being based off another Open Sourced package. Has that been to court yet?)

        • #3109991

          Why pay for Linux

          by tracy_anne ·

          In reply to BUY Linux??

          I use the 7 CD Mandriva 2006.0 Powerpack version, not the free 3 CD version. But if I tell you why I pay for it, I’ll have to kill you.

        • #3109986

          Reasons why I have paid in the past

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Why pay for Linux

          I want a copy and my slow dial up connection is such that I do not want to wait 4 months to download the ISO files; and none of the local shops carry the Linux mags with the discs that have the free copies – some of the very few disadvantages of rural living

          One of the biggest advantages or rural living is that the locals think a drive by shooting is hunting rabbits from the back of a ute; they don’t understand why someone would buy a rock as the paddocks are full of them; the only coke they know is a drink that comes in a red can; and the closest thing to police brutality is the local copper refusing to buy YOUR choccies for school fund raiser because he has already bought from half of your mates.

        • #3109852

          Quote:

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Reasons why I have paid in the past

          > “I do not want to wait …”

          Well, that’s more of a personal issue. I just waited a week and a half to download a game. 😛

      • #3259582

        Windows is King

        by kron ·

        In reply to It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

        No matter what anyone says, I am pretty sure they have used windows one way or the other; heck entire economic sectors depend on it. Not counting the millions of people that have jobs today and can support their habits, families or whatever cause of Windows – Billy may not be the best programmer or IT guy out there but he sure is one heck of a business man – careful here he just might buy out your neighborhood

        • #3258938

          Not for sale

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Windows is King

          Besides I doubt he’d want it. SOme of the guys who live in my street are not the sort of people he normally assiciates with!
          LOL

        • #3258834

          Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Windows is King

          Actually Bill Gates is a convicted criminal, as he was majority owner, CEO and more of Microsoft when they were found guilty of misuse of a monopoly.

          Microsoft were better marketeers than f.inst. IBM. Their marketing genius were that the bullied OEM’s into deals requesting them not to install competiting OS’s, if they wantet to install Windows at all.
          Later it was changed so OEM’s were not allowed to sell a PC without an OS, if they wanted to install windows. This happened about the time market penetration passed 80%. When IE passed the same percentage development of IE died, only to be restarted when Firefox became a noted and better alternative.

          Monopolies NEVER were any good. Read about the timber and railroad barons, Standard Oil, IBM, Ma’Bell and the rest.

        • #3259995

          Actually Bill Gates is a convicted criminal

          by pgm554 ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          He was also busted for possesion of weed.

          Here is anti dope commercial you’ll never see:

          Bill Gates being a poster boy for how if you use dope,you’ll never get anywhere.

        • #3259954

          Most likely

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Actually Bill Gates is a convicted criminal

          He didn’t inhale. 😀

          If I remember correctly I heard that somewhere else previously. :p

          Col ]:)

      • #3094102

        Trust Me! I would never lie to you.

        by wlbowers ·

        In reply to It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

        Common dude! Like Windows has never told anybody a flat out
        lie.

        What do you think they are going to say on their site. Buy us and
        get a screaming ulcer from trying to deal with it.

        Lee

      • #3133403

        Yes, it is…

        by alxnsc9 ·

        In reply to It’s my blind ignorance and limited wizdom

        Dear friend,

        You do a bad favour to your favourites. I quote:
        -“…I know how secure and stable and fast unix\linux can be, but it is not windows”. Oh, X is worse than Y becase Y is not X! Good Gracious!
        – “…I can blindly say that windows is the best OS…”. If it is “blindly” then it is probably not true..
        – “…I can’t clarify what best is”. You can’t clarify but you classify! Oh, Lord!…

        Are all Windows fans STARTing to TURN OFF their minds? I hope not!

        Best regards,
        alx

    • #3259073

      The major problems with your contentions

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      First you state that nobody would use a PC. Lots of people did using DOS and there were also UNIX workstations. I used to teach in DOS and there were plenty of people using it. The thing that changed was the price of PC’s. A PC costing 10K was NOT going to end up in someone’s home. In 1998, my work bought me a PII400 for $1700. Now you can get a P4 for $400.

      What do you think put them in homes, being affordable or being easy? This completely invalidates your first assumption.

      Second, just because something is popular does not make it the best. OS2/warp was faster and more stable, but MS was better at MARKETING so they got the market share.

      When you get out in the job market, you will realize that this is just FUD.

      Look at specialized systems. High end graphics are done on linux. Ever hear of a movie called “Shrek?”

      High end graphics have been on MACs for well over a decade.

      High end CAD stations have been on Unix workstations for decades.

      AOL users that are looking to buy a clue, are on windows systems because they can click on a pretty picture and it will USUALLY work for about a year and then needs to be formatted because it is so corrupted by viruses and malware.

      Also remember, there would BE no web if wasn’t for Unix and unix protocols for communications. Can you imagine a web run on netbuoy?

      If a MAC is just as easy, how do you claim Windows is better?
      If you have never sat at a linux desktop, how can you claim Windows is better?

      Logic, what a fleeting thing….. ;\

      • #3259031

        Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to The major problems with your contentions

        I can’t afford a high end graphics MAC and I can’t afford the equipment used to make the movie shrek and I can’t afford a UNIX setup or CAD software and I don’t no any one who can afford it (I don’t get out much, I spend all my time in the TR site).

        The US guv agency’s run Linux\UNIX based servers and apps, as far as I know(and i don’t), they are a big UNIX\Linux power house.

        I can’t even afford a better PC (If I could I would and I would also buy windows pro OEM edition). So If I had lots of money (if I was bill gates) I would have all the cool stuff you mentioned and I would love it. I would start a thread in the mac section, the greatest OS ever without a doubt.

        Maybe I think windows is best OS ever, because I can relate it to being a common mans OS. Common meaning not very Linux-wise. Maybe even call it the people’s OS. 😉

        Love that word “contentions”, its a very cleaver word. nice. I’ll have to start a speech with it one of these days, something like This “Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, It is my contentions that… ” or “Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen I will be presenting to you my contentions… ” but I’ll have to work on the grammer heaps to get it to sound right maybe….
        🙂

        • #3259002

          Actually that’s the funny thing

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

          Every Distro can run on less hardware than XP Pro as it has a much smaller footprint and far lower overheads in system resources.

          My NB has a dual Boot setup one with XP Pro and it’s a P4 3.2 GIG with 1 GIG of RAM and an 80 GIG HDD. XP Pro works OK on it but Debian flys on the same hardware and the added advantage is that when you buy XP you only get an OS with some things like IE and Media Player thrown in but with the Linux installation you get just about all you’ll ever need there is always a WP, D Base, Spread Sheet, Graphics Program of some description and depending on what you chose to install you can have just about anything that you want from CAD to CAM.

          The only applications that are special loads are things like the CI programs used by Industrial Light & Magic and places like that. There are also specialized programs compiled for different specialized business like banking and they generally are something that you have to shell out for but again they are very specialized software and not required by 99% of the users.

          But once you’ve loaded XP Pro you then need to start loading all your other software and that can be time consuming if you use a high end workstation but at the same time when you install just about any version of Linux you get all of that included and it generally takes less time to install than XP requires by itself.

          I have an old AMD 450 here that was running XP Pro and the owner traded it in because it was way too slow I’ve loaded Debian onto it and it’s as fast as his new 2800 AMD unit with 2 GIG of RAM and this is only a K 6 2 450 with 128 MEG of RAM and a 12 GIG HDD. 😀

          The look on his face when he first saw me boot it after the Linux install up was priceless. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3258952

          re specialised systems

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Actually that’s the funny thing

          used by Production companies are in reality nothing more than server boxes, with the rendering engine they are using for the movie.

          with 20 low end consumer boxes as workstations and 100 servers for rendering, you can make a 2 hour movie video sequence in about a year..the audio and synch will take another 4 months, on one server box.

          the slowest thing is the rendering of the video sequences, most good raytrace rendering engines will take about a day per frame per cpu.
          raytrace giving the best quality output.

          a preview can be done at lower settings, in about 1/16th the time, so you can verify that the look is right.

        • #3258930

          No logic

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

          IF you are short of money, and that’s no shame, why then don’t you stop shelling out hundreds of dollars to Bill Gates, when you can get the same stuff for free or at very low prices in the Linux/OpenSource world ?
          Then you could spend your money on fast hardware, vacations or a wild night out, instead of giving them to Bill Gates.

          rgds
          Peter

        • #3260109

          and don’t forget

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to No logic

          your mountain dew, your pizza, and red bull!

        • #3260092

          Now be nice JD

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to and don’t forget

          this guy comes from New Zealand where men are men and sheep are scared. If he actually went with Linux he would have more money available to paint the legs of the sheep that kick red so he wouldn’t get kicked as often. Maybe he could even afford those Welles so he could first stick those red painted legs into them. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3260007

          Be nice?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Now be nice JD

          why start now? :O

          BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

        • #3259945

          Be Nice

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Be nice?

          It would be a change. :p :O

          Col ]:)

        • #3258842

          Try it, you’ll like it

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

          First Mr. Justice, which is more enjoyable. Making noise in search of “fun” like underage was, or posting something that you put thought into and having people around the WORLD read what you put and put their posts either correcting you or agreeing with you.

          Second, your post should have said “I love Windows, and here is why”. Never confuse YOU LIKING something with it being even remotely good. The two don’t always go together, so it gives you more credibility if it is your “contention” that you like this and then spout what you like about it.

          If this is about what you like, then the only place that leaves your readers is to agree OR offer alternatives that you may like more, in which case you will accidentally LEARN something! 😀 Of course you will always get someone come in and just tell you your and Id10t and attack you without any foundation, but these people are easily torn down and discarded.

          Take public speaking classes. When/If you get a job, never turn down ANY free training that your employer offers you. EVER. I don’t.

          And yes, a word like Contention sounds better than “I think”. People don’t CARE what you think, but a contention is a challenge to someone and it gets them listening.

          Try a linux install, select the “workstation” install and in an hour you will be on-line AND have a nice gui to run your computer with.

          As it is in most cases a FREE download, AND runs with less system requirements, which option is REALLY the “common mans” OS? Which is better for people just starting out, one that runs nicely on a five year old system or one that will run like a DOG on a five year old system?

        • #3258747

          I am going to try it.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Try it, you’ll like it

          I would have to say it is more enjoyable “posting something that you put thought into and having people around the WORLD read what you put and put their posts either correcting you or agreeing with you”. But I am upside down on the bottom of the world in a country full of sheep (which can be very distracting), that at least should let me off lapses in thought. 😀

          I learnt my lesson there, but check this out

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6239-0.html?forumID=79&threadID=188279

          statykserver gave a good answer.

          I will be downloading Debian, But I can’t download Debian at work, it’s like massive, and I all ready got into trouble for costing my org a lot of money by exceeding their bandwidth limit. Their limit is five gigs, I exceed the limit by 19 gigs (9 gigs uploaded, 12 gigs downloaded the other four gigs was org wide internet usage.) and we have corporate ADSL so it cost heaps. I also didn’t see any of what I downloaded, the machine got confiscated for an investigation which I was later cleared off. But I will download it on home ADSL, which is not as fast as work and after a gig they limit me to dial up speed, but I don’t get charged for excess downloading.

          I am already a proficient public speaker, what lets me down is the not thinking part, I always seem to be ready to put my foot in it and dig myself a nice big hole.

        • #3258725

          Well a couple of things here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I am going to try it.

          First you don’t need to download all 15 ISO files for Debian the first 5 should be enough.

          Secondly and much more importantly while Debian is my first choice in a Nix it’s isn’t the ideal Beginners Linux as it is mainly geared for the user who knows Linux inside out. Part of the reason for this is that it is written by Linux users for Linux users and lacks quite a lot of the bells and whistles that come with other distros. It’s also harder initially to use but once you can use it you’ll never want to work with any form of Windows again.

          As a beginning tool I would try one of the Live Linux’s like Knoppix all you need do is drop it in a CD ROM drive and have the computer boot from the CD/DVD drive it will give you the ability to read the HDD/s in the computer and work with Linux without damaging your Windows installation and also give you the ability to save anything that you produce on the Linux Platform to any form of Media Storage that you wish to use. The only down side is that using something like this you are limited to what is on the CD but even that isn’t much of an issue as the applications will cover 99.9% of most peoples needs.

          Col ]:)

        • #3259852

          expensive?…

          by vulpinemac ·

          In reply to Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

          [quote] I can’t afford a high end graphics MAC and I can’t afford
          the equipment used to make the movie shrek and I can’t afford a
          UNIX setup or CAD software and I don’t no any one who can
          afford it… [/quote]

          Let’s see here…
          1) You can now buy a Mac Mini for about $499… maybe not the
          strongest Mac, but capable of running more than 95% of all Mac
          software.
          2) See above. Mac OS X runs on Unix underpinnings.
          3) Granted, Shrek and others were created using massive banks
          of Linux machines, but a movie entitled “Sky Captain and the
          World of Tomorrow was created on a desktop Mac before being
          reborn on a bank of Linux machines.
          4) I know of several CAD and 3D design applications that are
          freeware.

          So what’s this about being too expensive?

        • #3258735

          expensive for me.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to expensive?…

          1) I can’t afford a mini mac. I can’t afford mac software. I have MS Office 10 for MAC but no mac to use it on and it cost me the price of shipping which was $20 US, got it through a work deal.
          2) but if I could I would. I think I mentioned that.
          3)Still can’t afford the mac that built “Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow”
          4)I was thinking “Auto CAD”, but hey there are free ones.

        • #3109868

          NOW YOU COME CLEAN

          by colici ·

          In reply to Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

          See, I told you as it was – in the previous post i wrote. Now, stop going on about not having enough money to buy a mac. You don’t have to buy the best and most powerfull – iBooks are great too. There are choices. The worst scenario is saying that something is best (knowing it is not true) simply because that is what I have. understandable, yet sad.
          I know, we all do it and that is why we should be reminded of it

        • #3109665

          I get it

          by giannidalessismo ·

          In reply to Yeah my contentions are pretty lacking.

          I suspected from the top of the thread that you were here merely
          to stir it up; your ‘contentions’ are too stupid and ill-conceived
          not for this to be the case. Here’s another, donno if it’s a
          ‘cleaver’, or even a beaver cleaver word or not: your arguments
          fail to argue; they are but instigatorial, in a childish mein.
          Does that cleav yer beaver?
          You’d have to work on your grammar, your spelling and your
          punctuation, and then some: Noto Bene, Exemplo Gratio: ‘it is’,
          singular, does not match the plural ‘contentions’. We learn that
          in about the second grade of grammar school.
          Windows is absolutely for the common man if you are the
          exemplar of ‘common man’, this must be true.

        • #3109085

          I don’t think you do.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to I get it

          but that’s my opinion. my thread isn’t about grammar or spelling or going to grammar school. They didn’t have grammar schools when I was In primary. If they did I would currently be a grease monkey. I am not arguing that Windows is the best OS ever, Microsoft can take that argument, it’s their OS. I am just saying it is. I’m not saying the other operating systems are bad or crap, just saying that windows is the best. Your spelling is too hot either, while trying to use cleaver words (instigatorial) it would help if you spelt them right (that way I can look them up in dictionary.com to see what they mean). So it doesn’t cleave my beaver. And in your reply, are you putting in an argument against windows being the best or against me. Your ‘contentions’ are not very clear.

      • #3259005

        JD I don’t know if you where around at the time

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to The major problems with your contentions

        But back in the early days we used to have one big Main Frame and [b]Dumb Terminals[/b] on the desktop. Of course that was all run on Unix back then.

        Now the new technology is allowing the [b]Dumb Terminal[/b] to make a comeback in the form of [b]Thin Clients[/b] new name for the same thing but I’m betting we will not be seeing too many Windows 2003 Enterprise Servers driving Thin Client technology. Mainly because that OS just isn’t scalable enough for the purpose.

        But even a desktop version of Linux will run those big servers easily and it only gets better when you apply an Enterprise version of Linux as it’s leaner and meaner than the desktop version.

        And from my limited observations the code is better put together as well requiring less clock cycles to do the same thing. That is something that I’ve noticed with people who program for Windows the code is sloppy in comparison to the code produced by people who are more at home in the Unix/Linux platform than what the MS only programmers are capable of producing. Actually it was MS that made me walk away from punching in code as I found it way too frustrating trying to get applications to run on Windows 3X way back then and that was essentially DOS I feel sorry for those who have to write code for things to run on XP and it’s ilk.

        Could be part of the reason why programmer’s are those locked away and never allowed out in polite company as they are always the people who look as if they have just escaped from jail and the [b]Nice People[/b] never feel safe around them. 😀

        Col ]:)

        • #3258951

          hey!!!!!

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to JD I don’t know if you where around at the time

          I resemble that remark!!

          😀

        • #3258837

          That is what I walked into at my job

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to JD I don’t know if you where around at the time

          One SCO box running on a PentiumPro 200, feeding out to a bunch of dumb terminals over an all serial “network”.

          Big concentrators at each location, with one line for each terminal going in one concentrator at the remote location and coming out another concentrator in the central location.

          Imagine if you will, the wiring mess I walked into, as we had six locations, each with a minimum of 10 terminals and 5 printers, EACH with their own line. fun fun fun.

          No email, not ethernet, and only about 10 PC’s, all on sneaker net. (Remember the old Acer 486’s in the ugly gray cases? That and Packard He11’s. brrrrrr)

          Now the terminals are gone and we use terminal emulators on the PC’s to access the same legacy systems AND internet AND email and many other things that just weren’t available at the time.

          come a long way, baby! B-)

          Remember it? I lived it!

        • #3258828

          Me too, and I changed it….

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to That is what I walked into at my job

          We had Novell, TokenRing and an AS/400, mixed dumb terminals and pc’s running OS/2. Nice thing to manmage, few errors and rock stable.
          Due to corporate descision this was ‘upgraded’ to NT, ethernet, and lots of PC’s. Support staff was doubled in 5 months, number of servers quadrupled, network changed from 4Mbit to 10Mbit to 100Mbit, and costs skyrocketed.

          3 years later we dumped all PC’s for ad thin client Citrix based solution, and I woul NEVER even dream of doing a PC based installation again.

          I too make a living off Windows, but we don’t have it at home. Here the solution is Mac and Linux in a network, it runs by itself with very little effort.

        • #3260073

          Funny you should mention that

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That is what I walked into at my job

          I have a brand new Stallion Network System here only been out of the box a couple of times when I handed it to some wet behind the ears newbie and told them to setup a network. 😀

          It plugs into a ISA Slot and has a 15 terminal com port interface lovely thing that it is. 🙁

          But I did the right I did copy the 5.25 to 3.5 Floppies. 🙂

          One day I just might find someone who can find a use for it. Its Microprocessor chugs along at all of 1 KHZ and was the fastest thing available in its day. Other than opening the books to copy the floppies I don’t think that they have ever been opened. Would you like it just to remind you of all the joys involved? :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3260008

          Still have all my old toys

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Funny you should mention that

          sitting in the basement collecting dust.

          I even have a WORKING 286 down there and a 386 laptop with win3.11! 😀

        • #3259951

          Actually about a year ago

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Still have all my old toys

          In a fit of stupidity I set up a Windows 3 X box as I thought it might be nice to have one around as I still had one customer using it.

          Well I got 3.11 on it networked up OK and then I tied installing a modem which went well enough and then I started looking for the Win sock Floppies and gave up and dropped in a 95 Upgrade CD. I wasn’t going looking through all the stored floppies here just for a Internet connection for a 3.11 Box. I know when to call it quits. 😀

          When one of my staff does something really bad I’ll get then to do it for [b]Punishment[/b] I still have several old Pentium 1 boxes lying around which could be used for that purpose. I’ve even got a Quad 200 MMX box here that’s running XP Pro very slowly admittedly but it works on it. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3259918

          win3.11

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Actually about a year ago

          Anyone remember when the NEW 386 33mhz systems came out? MAN, did those things SCREEM! Drop 8 Megs of RAM and you were off and flying and for the CAD systems you would bump it all the way up to 16 MEGS! :O

          Of course, you had to determine if it was going to be earmarked for Expanded or Extended memory, and often had to be SPLIT as some apps would only work in one or the other, and SOME would work in BOTH, but would grab one first if it was available.

          Do cad stations of today on a P4 3ghrz running WinXPproSp2 with a GIG of RAM actually perform similar cad operations any faster? Or did you have to go to a MUCH faster set of hardware just to keep at the same pace using the latest bloatware available? I can bet you know what MY answer is. B-)

        • #3259889

          I’ve got a fair idea

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Actually about a year ago

          The new stuff is just so much better so it’s faster right? 😀

          Sorry I couldn’t resist that one I’ve been to a few too many MS meetings last year. 🙁

          Actually that 3.11 Box is driving a computer controlled lathe and will most likely still be there is 50 years time although it most likely will have had the computer side of it rebuilt a few times. Currently I have a 1200 Duron in it but it started life as a Pentium 90. All that oil and metal shavings play havoc with the electronics. 🙁

          But remember the good old days I had a 486 with 8 X 16 MEG RAM sticks in it and once you got past the price of the ram about $1,600.00 AU per Stick it could do everything that this Dual Xeon is capable of doing and faster as well even if I was silly enough to put Windows 3 on it. :O

          Col ]:)

        • #3258751

          The first BIG price break

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Actually about a year ago

          I remember when memory dropped to ONLY $50 per meg! Hot spit on a gridle!

          Now THAT takes me back! HUGE card, and you put as many chips on it as you had money for?

          Anyone else have to trouble shoot memory? This error code says row and column and you replace THAT one chip off the board! Servers running off 2 MEGS! LOL!

          damn, at least my experiences with punch card machines was only from my mom working with them when I was a kid! I just got the old cards to draw on! 😀

        • #3258740

          I was lucky as well

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Actually about a year ago

          I missed the punch cards they where still around when I started but dieing out quite fast at the time and I never had to work on one of those as the techs at the time where very protective of their computers.

          Last year I went to Melbourne for a day and I’m still kicking myself for not going to the Power House Museum where they have Citrix on display the fist computer built here in AU some time around 1945 although the actual date is still up in the air apparently it was designed in 1940 and went into service in 1945 and was used to do all the calculations for the Sydney Harbor Bridge and Snowy Mountain Dam Project and just about everything else till it was eventually taken out of service in the mid 70’s.

          It’s just a static display and even for that they had to drag a couple of techs out of retirement to tell them how to put it back together. All punch cards chugs along at 1 KHZ and something I’d just love to get my grooty little hands on and play with. Far more fun than anything new. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3108823

          Memory lane

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Still have all my old toys

          I have a working IBM PC-G from 1981. It is a luxury thing as it has a color display, and every slot is filled with extra RAM – a whooping 512kb of it. It runs DOS 1.6 as it has no internal disk, only 2 360k floppies. It probably cost in the region of 20.000$ including the 132chr wide matrix printer.
          I have a 386 running OS/2 and Microsoft Excel in an OS/2 version. MS Excel installs from 2 1.44 floppies, as OS/2 provides all fonts, printerdrivers etc – just as any decent OS should.

          This PC, which can do anything a current-day PC can do, except DVD and most videoformats, is operative in less than a minute. If you uninstall the DOS and Windows part of OS/2 and only run OS/2 pgms on it, I think you’re quite safe on the net too. Can’t be many OS/2 viruses around.

        • #3259809

          Unix?

          by bschmidt ·

          In reply to JD I don’t know if you where around at the time

          Unix is for kids. OS/390, VSE/ESA, CICS…

          Heh, sorry I couldn’t resist. You mentioned dumb terminals, I just set one up this morning. We have Windows servers for the office area to share files and stuff, but the warehouse, shipping and anything else of any importance is run off a S/390. Dumb terminals and bar code scanners in the warehouse all connect to two 3270 controllers. Even the PCs run 3270 emulators. Every single thing coded in COBOL (with exception of a few Basic and Fortran tools here and there). Pretty much my job over the next 5-10 years is to pull everything off the mainframe and pull it over to SQL Server and build apps for it. Tell me I won’t be an alcoholic by the end of it…

          Oh yeah, and enough coax under the floors to give CNN to a small 3rd world country.

          MS helps pay my bills so I can’t bad rap it much. Besides if they made the perfect software there would be no need for people to repair it. 60% of IT would be out of work. Pandemonium would ensue. Riots in the streets. People hacking banks just to be hacked themselves by the hacker next door. MS is just doing its part in keeping society and the economy stable. 🙂

          Heh…

          Here’s one for you, I have a DELL running XP HOME. Runs perfectly. Never a virus, spyware, etc. Of course all it’s for is WoW and checking weather…but hey, it’s a Dell w/ XP Home, 2 years and never a hitch, I must be doing something right…

      • #3258991

        Okay jd, I’m away on business but I’ve kept an eye on TR. Where did……..

        by sleepin’dawg ·

        In reply to The major problems with your contentions

        this arsewipe crawl out from. WTF he talks about gaming, playstations and other assinine trivialities [b]and you guys respond to him, seriously???[/b] This is some snotnosed little punk, trying to play with the adults and I can’t believe any of you respond to him in a serious manner at all.[/b] He is just a juvenile version of IT_Lobo(timized)and the best part of him drizzled down his daddy’s leg.[/b] If you keep treating him and his inane posts with any degree of politeness or rationality, you will only encourage him. I’m gone for only 3 weeks and it’s like TR has acquired its own peculiar virus. Ignore this anal retentive dick head as you would any other mindless twit like we did to MrMIAMI or IT_Lobo and hopefully he’ll crawl back to where he came from and TR can get back to normal; a place for professionals. Sheesh!!! The nerve of some peoples children. If you only knew the connectivity hassles that I have here you would understand why I haven’t spoken up before but Windoze being the greatest OS ever was just too much. Where are Max and Oz when they’re so obviously needed??? Somebody tear this punk a new one before he lives a day longer. BTW if you are wondering where I am, eating here requires the use of chop sticks. How do you spell arsewipe; give me an “N” give me a “Z” give me a …….. well you’ve got the basic premise.:O X-(

        [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3258986

          NZ_Justice; This one is just for you.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Okay jd, I’m away on business but I’ve kept an eye on TR. Where did……..

          http://tinyurl.com/6wbv

          Now go run to your mommy and tell her the big boys are picking on you; [b]again!!![/b]

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3258877

          Dawg

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to NZ_Justice; This one is just for you.

          Always great to see you and glad your back.

          How was your trip?

          Welcome back! 😀

        • #3259168

          I’m still away but I’ve been keeping tabs

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Dawg

          Will be here for at least another month yet but I just couldn’t let something like this Justice a$$wipe slide. He is a real cretin.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3259916

          get over it.

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to NZ_Justice; This one is just for you.

          I have.

        • #3258821

          I think they

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Okay jd, I’m away on business but I’ve kept an eye on TR. Where did……..

          are sitting on the fence watching to see where Justice goes from here. (from my other post about ignoring some new users)

          I had given this one the benifit of the doubt, actually more times than I ususally would. Underage on the other hand is useless.

          Here is where what I was saying before to him about being judged by how you post. I am as off-topic as just about ANYONE here on TR, but I never come off as a loud kid looking for attention. You can be off topic, have fun and STILL fit in. Although we may have to make him show his ID before coming into half of Jaquis posts or when we get going with GG! ]:)

          Chopsticks! Man, I bet that is a far cry from the crap they serve at the “China Buffet” up the road!

      • #3258908

        Operating systems should operate.

        by starderup ·

        In reply to The major problems with your contentions

        I will say that some of the ideas Gates & Co. ‘borrowed’ from the Mac and Xerox were good ones. The PC Dos OS that he bought for $50,000 shortly after promising IBM that he already had one was not terrible, but not as good as other OSs in the day.
        He was a shrewd marketer, but a poor visionary. Otherwise, 90% of the world’s computers wouldn’t be running a hacked up, unreliable insecure OS.
        I owe my living to Windows machines. Fixing them puts bread on my table, so, please, everybody, keep buying it and use it.
        I won’t use it at home unless I have to, but I encourage everyone else to do so.

        • #3258832

          Bread and butter

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Operating systems should operate.

          Would you not agree that competition is GOOD for Windows?

          If MS HAS to put out a better product, the USERS benifit, allowing MS to retain many of the big users that are more concerned with just “getting it done” than saving a buck.

          *lix isn’t going to put MS out of business, but it WILL make them START to maintain some standards of quality that they never worried about before because the dumb users where held captive. Now they will have to keep their users by competing. Good for everyone.

        • #3260128

          Yep, everyone keeping using MS…

          by cheesel ·

          In reply to Operating systems should operate.

          Keeps me in business, too!

    • #3260123

      Netware was a better NOS far earlier

      by cheesel ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Can’t really write about Linux as I don’t know anything about it yet, but I was trained on Netware and that had an “Active Directory” many years before MS. I suspect that MS ‘borrowed’ it from Novell. It was also more stable than MS.

      Also going back down memory lane, the Amiga was a far superior machine than the PC’s it competed with. It had integrated video and audio ten years before Wintel came up with the idea. Unfortunately, poor marketing by its manufacturer (Commodore, which was formerly a typewriter manufacturer), did the Amiga in.

      Another case in point, VHS vs. BEtamax. Beta was of better quality, but VHS had better marketing.

      • #3260033

        “Borrowed” directory services

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to Netware was a better NOS far earlier

        Alas, Microsoft didn’t borrow, beg or steal AD from NDS. If they had, do you think we would have the mess that we’ve got at the moment? No, they developed – if that is the word – the whole sorry mess in house from their Exchange 5.5 directory.

        • #3259937

          Actually Neil

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to “Borrowed” directory services

          MS used their best software developers to create AD need I say any more? :O

          I used to get invited to the MS programing meetings but that all ended when I went to the Ink meeting and rewrote the entire code in C++ instead of VB. I don’t think that they liked the fact that it took up less headroom and worked better. 😀

          Then there was the security Lab that I attended where a 2003 ES was protecting a [b]Virtual[/b] power station and we had to attempt to break in and play with the settings. After 10 minutes I sat back and had a smoke and was asked had I given up I just replied have a look at the simulated traffic lights. They where all showing green. 🙂

          I’ve never got another invite after that. 🙁

          I even allowed them to have the code for Ink in C++ and didn’t ask for payment. :O

          Col ]:)

        • #3133343

          Security

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Actually Neil

          At my last job we had a guy who broke windows encryption in 10 minutes flat. We bought a 3rd party program to secure laptops used outside premises, and later inforced that to all laptops – people forget them in the weirdest places.
          In a recent case of fraud, police spent 6 months breaking this encryption, having access to whatever ressources needed, and they only got into it because someone leaked the password.
          XP firewall ?? Forget about it. Installing another firewall revelas that f.inst MS Word calls home all the time, XP firewall telles you nothing about it.
          I have always wondered how it was possible in 48 hours to nail the guy who wrote the Melissa virus/worm/trojan whatever badware it was, out of millions of MS users.

        • #3107696

          Yes that is a good question

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Security

          It was fast finding that guy wasn’t it? and that Love Bug Virus as well the author was found very quickly well according to the [b]Official Lies[/b] anyway maybe they just got a patsy to take the wrap.

          I recently went to a persons home originally to buy a car part and he said that I couldn’t e-mail him because his e-mail wasn’t working so I offered to fix his computer for him while I was there as I just may have needed something else latter and e-mailing was so much cheaper than the long distance mobile phone calls involved.

          But after fixing the e-mail server accounts I was handed a telco bill with 485 outgoing calls and every one was the internal modem ringing the ISP for a net connection no doubt that was mostly word as well. Anyway I locked it down a bit and offered to supply him an external modem at cost and set it up but he declined apparently he’s happy to pay the phone bill and not cure the problem.

          But at least I’ve cut down the number of outgoing calls. 🙂

          Col ]:)

      • #3259936

        Amiga?

        by mschachner ·

        In reply to Netware was a better NOS far earlier

        ….hmmmm
        Graphics that blew away anything out at the time. I had my set until a few years ago when I sold it to a collector for some quick cash. I still have the monitor with it’s 15 million ways to feed it video information. Keep looking at it and thinking ‘I’m going to make a oscilloscope!’

    • #3259881

      Best OS ever…

      by vulpinemac ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      You know, I’ve read about half of the posts in this series so far,
      and all I can do is laugh.

      Fact: Bill Gates purchased (supposedly) a Disk Operating System
      for something like $500.
      Fact: Bill Gates licensed the OS to IBM with the provision that he
      held the rights to licens it to anyone else he chose.
      Fact: Bill Gates licensed the OS to anyone who wanted to build
      an IBM ‘compatible’ desktop computer.
      Fact: Bill Gates got rich.

      Talking about Windows…
      Fact (as was previously mentioned) Zerox created a GUI, first as
      a controller for a microprocessor-controlled copier.
      Fact: Zerox decided the GUI was a stupid invention and sold the
      rights to the ‘highest bidder’: one Steve Jobs.
      Fact: Microsoft learned about the purchase and scrambled to
      release their first version of Windows (3.0, I believe) mere weeks
      (I think two or three) before Apple released the first Macintosh
      computer with its GUI.
      Fact: Windows did not compare to the Mac OS in features or
      simplicity until Windows 95.

      Biggest point here: I had been using the Mac OS for one year
      before Windows 95 was released, and I had to teach nearly all
      the computer users in the company I worked for how to find and
      manipulate their files in 95… which, to me, was roughly equal to
      the first MacOS with the exception of being full-color.

      Since that time, Windows has managed to catch up somewhat…
      Windows is now roughly equivalent to Mac OS 9.5. It is said (I’ve
      seen no proof) that Vista has been made to look much like Mac
      OS X’s Aqua interface. That makes Windows still FIVE years
      behind Apple.

      Now, I’ll grant that Apple only has approximately a 5% market
      share in the US. Taking that into account, I’m sure security
      issues to exist in the Mac OS. However, because the lion’s share
      of the software market operates through Windows, it’s no
      wonder Crackers are writing their Trojans, Worms and Viruses
      against Windows. Even so, the Mac OS gets far less than 5% of
      the malware floating in the wild…. so far less that it is
      statistically unmeasureable.

      So while Windows might be the Most Popular OS on the market,
      it’s definitely NOT the best.
      I’m not claiming that the MacOS is, but it’s a d–n sight better
      than Windows!

      • #3258746

        You forgot one fact

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Best OS ever…

        When Bill Gates started developing a GUI it caused the Industrial Divorce between IBM and MS. That was a bitter and nasty time to be working IT particularly as I was at IBM but luckily enough on the Mainframe side of things so I just got to see glimpses of the problems that where occurring on the PC side of the business.

        Col ]:)

      • #3109953

        MAC OS

        by ds4211a ·

        In reply to Best OS ever…

        I’ve hardly used MAC at all. People who use it thinks it’s great. I’m not sure why a basic Macintosh PC’s is so expensive compared to other basic PC’s.

        The thing that really puzzles me about MAC has to do with the fact that they put so many in the schools. I thought that that was a brilliant move by Macintosh. Get the young kids using them and they would be future users. I really don’t know why it never quite turned out that way.

        Maybe Bill Gates was just a super salesman. That seems to be the most likely possibility for Windows success in dominating the market for so long.

    • #3258485

      The best OS is no OS

      by jkameleon ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      … for the embedded applications that run from ROM/FLASH, and have no mentionable UI, at least.

      Everything else is more trouble than it’s worth.

    • #3258431

      Windows is bad OS but lots of applications sell it

      by jimhwall ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Windows is a bad operating system.
      It is getting better with each major release. Of course each major release results in lots of more money for Microsoft. An incentive to not get it right. Maybe the next major relase will finally get it right but the focus seems to be on GUI/graphics not OS excellence.
      Unfortunately for all us computer users success in the market required only a barely adequate OS and lots of applications. People bought Windows PCs to run an application; not to run the OS!
      Microsoft’s support for developers and easy bootlegging of Visual BASIC is what made windows. IBM charged too much for their dev tools and did not market them much.
      The first barely adequate version of Windows was 3.x. Given the hardware limitations at the time, a solid OS would run too slow (OS/2). Also it would have to give up backward compatibility with DOS apps at the time; which was not an option. The Win 3.x support for multiple DOS VMs on 386 CPU made it possible to upgrade and still use your DOS apps until windows versions came out.

    • #3259299

      Very Successful Troll

      by whiteknight_ ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Look at all the bites you got! I salute you (lol)

      • #3259171

        Oh good, I thought it was just me again.

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to Very Successful Troll

        I’m usually not very good at troll detection, but this one smells fishier than a cat food cannery. I’m surprised at some of the members that swam up to feed on this chum.

        “You’re gonna need a bigger boat…”

        • #3257960

          Now be fair

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Oh good, I thought it was just me again.

          When this was originally posted things at TR where slow with hardly anyone about very few new questions being asked so I at least need time to unwind after a day of work. 🙁

          The original posting just got up my nose and I couldn’t let it slip by but then again if everyone had not have been recovering from their Christmas/New Years time maybe it would have just slid into obscurity. 😀

          Col ]:)

    • #3259282

      Depends

      by stewarth1 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      It all depends. For home users I will give Windows the nod. For business use I still believe Solaris is better. But I have to admit that we have taken the end users over to Windows since it is easier and more familiar. However we still keep the mission critical backend stuff running on Solaris. And if it wasn’t for the OS being tied so closly to the hardware, VMS was the most stable, dependable OS I have ever used.

      • #3257674

        Hooray VMS

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Depends

        proper operating system that.

        • #2625443

          Back In time, again

          by srainess ·

          In reply to Hooray VMS

          Yes, it was… Imagine, Real/True Clustering over 15 years ago, virtualization, timesharing… bulletproof… Lets bring it back for the PC !!!!

    • #3258043

      Hmmm.

      by jc2it ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      NZ_Justice should change thier alias to FlameBait.

      • #3107479

        but will anyone get it?

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Hmmm.

        people have a hard time taking a joke.

        Flamebait.

        Now how about windows as an OS. Best ever without a doubt.

        http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx

        • #3109877

          Typical of MS they spelled it wrong

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to but will anyone get it?

          It should have been spelled Visa the credit card you need to use our Software. 🙂

          Vista must be incorrect as that was the name given to a Creative Web Cam and a cheap rubbish one at that so I can hardly see MS ripping off that name to use for themselves. 😀

          But far more importantly did you notice that the Marketing people at MS have put so much spin on what VISA can do but not a single mention of anything security related just ease of use. Maybe MS are making this OS so easy to use that they are working out a way to get all the personal info off their customers computers and rip them all off by sending then broke after they max out their Credit Cards, empty their bank Accounts and sell their houses and not paying off the mortgage do you think that some people just might start to wonder why they are using M$ software as an OS?

          M$ already have it in their EULA that

          1 You don’t actually own the software that you have paid for.

          2 MS can demand its return and deletion from your computer at any time that they like

          3 M$ takes no responsibility for faulty coding that may result in bankrupting the user and leaving them homeless [b]After that point in time they are no longer important to MS as they have lost all their money and their Credit Rating has been shot to Hell. :p[/b]

          Do you see a pattern forming here?

          Col ]:)

    • #3107236

      In golden days of yore

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      there was a device called a microcomputer of which many were made and they used many operating systems, each hardware manufacture had their own software and only their software would run on their computer. Then the giant of the day, the mighty IBM developed a microcomputer of their own and called it the Personal Computer and it used the architecture ISA, which they made available for anyone to use for a royalty of US$1 per unit made.

      They then sought a wise sage to develop an operating system for it. being unable to find such a sage they listened to salesman Bill who said I can do that, Bill then went and paid some people a pittance for their operating system, he filed off the seriel numbers, cleaned it up a bit and added a few things and licenced it to the giant IBM as PC-DOS. Bill then also sold copies to others as MS-DOS.

      Meanwhile cottage workers availled themselves of the IBM royalty and started making microcomputers using the ISA architecture – these were called IBM clones – and sold for about a fifth of the price of all the other microcomputers. After a few years everyone called both the genuine and cloned IBM microcomputers PCs, and this eventually became the industry term for all microcomputers.

      With the advent of the cheap IBM clones and the only software available to run on it being the IBM software or that from Bill, whose prices were cheapest by far, everyone started bying IBM clones with Bill’s software – thus the birth of the great serpent Microsoft was due to the efforts of the giant IBM creating the environment by which the serpent could grow and flourish.

      Like the fairy tale – sadly that is the whole truth of the matter, the home computer owes its existence to IBM allowing everyone to use their mutli-million dollar research at US$1 per unit thus cutting the cost of hardware manufacture for others to a fraction of the cost. MS grew simplt because they had the first IBM software and were quicker to sell it generally than anyone else.

      • #3109924

        You’re So Right

        by yobtaf ·

        In reply to In golden days of yore

        That’s the story in a nut shell. Bill Gates is not the innovator he
        pretends to be. He is merely a follower. A very rich and
        business-smart fellow but still just a follower. He invents
        nothing and predicts the future based on what other people are
        doing.

        Thank God there are at least two viable alternatives. I’m not
        suggesting that everyone should get rid of their PCs, I’m
        certainly not. But I have a Mac also and will never give that up
        either. The only thing that I find disagreeable about this
        situation is that there is no real choice for the average PC user.

        When there is an industry that is basically run by a monopoly,
        everybody suffers. You may say “but I’m not suffering”. You are,
        you just don’t know it.

    • #3109985

      can’t take you seriously

      by colici ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      … and you know why? Firstly, your writing leaves room for improvement. Maybe you’re tired, a bit restless and just want to steer the waters and get some attention (girls do often that – no harm intended). Secondly, line of reasoning and facts are obviously not important for you. It the process of making a point look credible that seem to be the carrot for you. in fact, you are not making a point, you are simply generally discussing back and forth, going back to a complacent “Windows is best because they are the biggest and I am used with them.”
      You are not adding any value to the discussion, because that is not your intention – you just want some good ol’ chatting.
      I use both Windows and OSX. I see good things with both. But OSX will probably gain ground due to the phase it is in: growth and expansion.
      Remember this: your core competencies are your core weaknesses too. MS is too big and not creative enough to hold the barricades in the long run. It is slower to reacting and does not have the option to rehash from the bottom up the OS. That is why it steals from the best. MS is still very strong, but they have climbed the hill, and the slope is now downwards, albeit at a low angle.
      OSX will gain ground because users know more what they want now, and what they value. Stability, ease of use, security, style, appearance, trend, quality (as unquantifiable as it is)are now more important than before. And these are the areas that MS is worst at.
      Vista will be OK, but in the mean time, OSX has ample time to get much better. Hype matters, and Apple is good at hype.
      Maybe totally wrong, but the choice of computers and OS is not restrictive anymore, for a private user. Just a matter of time for people to jump on this band wagon. Open source is great! And almost anything is better (and healthier) that cocacola

      • #3108952

        I’m not perfect.

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to can’t take you seriously

        And your writing leaves no room for improvement?

        People who use windows are users too, believe it or not.

        Microsoft are not infallible, they could crumble at any time. It is only in business (just like any one else), as long as they can keep there customer base happy and give them what they want.

        That they have, should be reasoning enough, that they have business smarts and can adapt as well as pursue innovation into the future.

        Are you under an illusion that MS are not into growth and expansion. If that was the case MS would have died with ms-dos a long time ago.

        Windows has the same opportunities for growth and expansion that any other OS has.

        If MS are under the illusion that they have reached the top of the hill, then they are indeed in big trouble. Hopefully they have employed the services of business smart people.

        Yes Choice of computers is not restrictive any more. people can actually choose to use Windows as there operating system.

        Windows has just as much time to get better and if you don’t believe MS is good at hype, take at look at there website.

        Windows is the best, because people now have a choice and they are choosing to use windows.

        I agree coca-cola is unhealthy.

    • #3109947

      Best OS Ever PFF

      by aturnbull ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      hi there, while the MS OS is the most functional and used within the computer industry I wouldn’t say it was the best nor did Mr Gates invent it, as he and two buddies of his reversed engineered source code which became windows, if I remember correctly. The best ever was the Amiga OS and commodore in general was better I even had a 386 board that ran faster than a 386 PC at the time 🙂 Also in tipical fashion the commodore was bought out by a European PC company to try and get the rights on the hardware as when you put a floppy or cd in the machine it doesn’t come to a halt while reading the data unlike what PC’s still do today (even at 4ghz cpu) put a floppy in and the whole system stops until the data has been read. Long live the Amiga in its EMU state

    • #3109937

      You miss something …

      by jocelyn.boyer ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      The fact that Windows is a pale copy of Mac is a truth that you seem to forget.

      And the fact that Mac OS is a breeze to use by the end user is also a strong advantage.
      Windows did not invent the usage of the mouse it is MAC that first embedded it into its OS.

      Now the issues is not that Windows allows you to feel that at the end of your life you should feel you accomplish something that user of Linux did not. You forget that admin.’s activities are now at kid’s reach and depend only in the wall build for admin by M$oft to limit user to admin their own account. Past is the time where you have to type your command, so to know your business before you can undertake any action on a server. Now you can just click here and there and you look GOOD. Well you do not impress any of us whom trace the path for you.

      Also do not forget that it is not the Windows itself that frustrate everyone, is the arrogance of M$ that do not reveal the code for other companies to offer product as preferment as M$ one because they do not have the same knowledge of the source code. By seeing how the succeed I understand that M$ is scared as hell to revealed it as they are forced to do so in EU.

      If it was a fair world I am sure that Windows will not be so hacked. That is why I now run a server using Linux-Apache and I feel that everyday I did accomplish something because the bug on it do not affect me, I am less worry of being hack and can be closer to my clients. And at the end of my life that will be the difference.

      By the way I also do not like Coke and do not dink it.

    • #3109907

      The best is what works for you

      by cklondon ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Most prolific does not constitute best. Marketing, price, and scratching the right itch normally determine “best selling”, but rarely determine “best”. Take a look at Beta vs VHS. Beta was the best format for many reasons, but did not win the VCR wars because of poor decision-making at Sony. Wal-Mart is top dog because they sell cheap products, not because they sell the best.

      Windows IS the best for some things (i.e. ease of installation, availability of software, general usability, etc.), but to say it is the “best OS ever” is like saying the hammer is the “best tool ever”. Realistically, a hammer is great for pounding nails, but sucks when it comes to cutting wood. So, the BEST depends on what you need.

      MACs can’t be beat for clean, simple power and ability to handle graphics and colors properly. Now that their OS is Linux and processor Intel, I suspect the best is yet to come. (I am eyeing a powerbook as my next purchase…) Atari (remember them?) still does a great job handling digital video media, while a light version of Linux runs great on an old 486 with just 16 MB of RAM as a firewall.

      Windows has some of the best-featured office productivity tools (this includes WordPerfect et al as well as MS Office) and is by far the easiest to use wrt install, upgrade, etc. Even though I find Outlook lacking wrt customer relationship management features, Linux has yet to come up with a viable competitor to Outlook for handling mail, contacts, to-do lists, and calendar. Once they do, I may never need to spend money on Windows again.

      Although not always true, Linux is rarely at the forefront in the design of new products, more often Linux software is just something ported or copied from another OS. Yet in some ways, it is lightyears ahead. Linux allows unheard of customization of your system (as long as you take the time to learn how to use it), but the plethora of options and possibilities (not to mention the various distributions) is what keeps Linux out of mainstream. Many boards I have surfed about Linux have all the code monkeys saying they don’t want to dumb down Linux. That’s fine, but if that is the case, it will never be mainstream, and Windows will always be the dominant choice, since the average user can easily jump onto a Windows machine and do many things in a much more simple manner, making it appealing to them. Even for a veteran Linux guru, double-clicking an executable on a windows box is significantly easier than trying to install software on a Linux.

      So, best is relative.

      • #3109826

        Amen to that

        by jtbowerse ·

        In reply to The best is what works for you

        The “which OS is the best” wars always amuse me. Which is the best depends on what you want to do and how much time and $ you have to do it! I’ve been in IT for nearly 30 years, and this same argument has been going on at least that long (but really since the birth of computers!). I’d be rich if I had a nickel for everytime I’ve heard “ is the best ever”. Anybody remember DOS/VSE, VM/CMS, Exec8, VMS? They were all “the best” to someone.

        Windows helped make personal computers and technology accessible to the average non-technical person…along with Intel, IBM, Apple, Compaq, Osborne (remember cp/m?, (and the list goes on) and thats a good thing.

        Critical mass is what Windows has going for it now, and as long as I’m doing “personal things” like checking email, surfing the internet, playing games, and maybe even running some db apps, it’s just fine. But not necessarily better than Mac OS/X??

        But I don’t see Windows as my choice for running hundreds of millions of dollars worth of daily global financial transactions 24X7. I’m not even sure if I see Linux or other Unixes in this way. Maybe it’s z/OS. It just depends.

        Until the OSs become commodities, and ubiquitous and fault tolerant to the point that you can’t tell what OS your running (and I believe they will!), there will never be a best OS.

    • #3109873

      Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

      by geekdoctor ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Strange, but IBM still sells more mainframes than anyone else. Those people must just be dumb as rocks … or maybe they’ve got a need.

      One could legitimately argue that z/OS is the best OS ever.

      Get some perspective, or learn to be more specific.

    • #3109858

      Call the funny farm, we got us a live one here :)

      by ni2sml ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      This fella has to be a troll, but just in case anyone is gullible enough to believe him:

      Insecure, unstable, unreliable, bloated, expensive. Windows summed up in 5 words.

      Insecure: I regularly have to run anti-virus and anti-spyware programs in Windows or suffer the consequences. My wife’s Windows XP PC needed a nuke and reinstall because of malware finally overcoming it (despite all attempts to save the thing). My Linux laptop hasn’t caused me any of that grief or wasted time, oddly enough.

      Unstable: I have to reboot my work PC (Windows XP) every night before I leave, otherwise it loses the plot entirely after a few days uptime. My Linux laptop has seen heavy usage and uptimes measured in weeks without going soft in the head. The Linux server I administer at work currently shows 64 days uptime (that’s longer than any install of Windows 98/ME I ever owned lasted before needing a reinstall, by the way). I’ve had my home server running Linux with uptimes of > 6 months.

      Unreliable: I freshly installed Linux on my laptop in February 2004, almost 2 years ago. I haven’t had to reinstall since. Even Windows 2000, which is a reasonably good product IMO, never lasted that long without forcing me to nuke and reinstall (and no, I don’t go hacking around in the registry – my linux box takes much more low-level abuse and sucks it up without fuss).

      Bloated: C:\WINDOWS\ on my XP box in work takes up around 2.5GB all by itself. I have a fully functional Linux-based server at home which doesn’t even have that much total disk space. I’d love to see a Windows-based server run in that much space and still have room to spare.

      Expensive: this one’s self-explanatory. Don’t believe everything MS try to tell you about TCO – do your own research tailored to your own situation. And if you really think Windows has universally low TCO, kindly don’t complain when you have to ditch your current hardware and replace it with high-end, high-cost stuff to be able to run Windows Vista in any meaningful way.

      There are bugs in every system, and yes, they get fixed. The open source development model makes this a whole lot more efficient, anyone can submit a code patch to the developers, who in turn actually care about the code they work on.

      You say Windows is the “wheel which we use to drive our PCs”. Sadly, the wheel on your PC is wobbly and has a flat tire. And Microsoft reserve the right to replace it with a square one without notice. Or take it away entirely and leave your PC on axle-stands, unable to operate.

      • #3134753

        funny farm called and I’m on my way

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Call the funny farm, we got us a live one here :)

        Secure, Windows XP can be set up just as secure as any Linux box, and it doesn’t require a lot of effort to secure a windows xp box.

        stable, I only have to reboot my work PC (windows xp) when there is a patch update, and it gets patch updated so there is no problems.

        Reliable, For what it gets used for, it’s pretty reliable that it will complete the task.

        Bloated. With all the functionality given to you with the windows OS, it has to go somewhere.

        Expensive. every thing is expensive. But I would use Linux as a sever for myself, becuase purchasing win2k3 is not as good as getting an OS server for free.

        Your Linux Server. What does it do? It seems that it’s only function is that it turns on and doesnt need to be turned off. It doesn’t take up a lot of space. What does it save the space for? Is it just a file store. Is it a gateway? I have a Linux server too, I haven’t built it yet but it’s pretty reliable for what it’s doing and It hasn’t caused me any problems. Unless I wanted to play games,

        How is getting a million fixes to one problem efficient. How is it efficient to sift through the millions of fixes for open source code and weed out the malicious code fix to the genuine code fix.

        I more worried about some random thief stealing my PC then I am MS taking clam over it’s software. And if Microsoft do claim there software and not let me use it anymore, I’ll just switch to Linux.

        • #3133441

          Logic missing

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to funny farm called and I’m on my way

          You state that you have a Linux server, and that a server does nothing but turns on and off. I wonder then what all our multi-cpu, Giga ram devices are busy doing, and why phone explodes if they die. You haven’t built it yet, you say. Sounds very strange…. And who else in the entire world would think of playing games on a server??? I know MS installs some by default, but it only clarifies that MS have no idea of what a server is.

          What do you mean about a million fixes for the same problem?. I guess it is when an error in a component used in many *nix’es is counted as seperate errors in various statistics. If one error exists in 1 million cars, is it then one error or 1 million errors?

          In linux you update the same way you do in windows. Log on to a server, hit ‘update’, and select what you want, or accept what’s suggested. Contrary to your Windows, it ONLY needs a reboot if the kernel has been changed – and that’s quite rare.only diferrence is that errors generally are fixed faster, and distributet much faster. These servers are generally located at universities around the world, and what do you think all those graduates will use when they hit the business world?

          You remember MS’s decision to issue fixes on a bi-weekly bases a few years ago, when grave security holes were unearthed every day, in the OS they called the best they ever produced, and the one never needing a fixpack? Now it’s down to one a month, and as demonstrated with the WMF disaster they value user security lower than anything else.

          You’re not concerned by the fact that you have accepted that MS *owns* your PC, and can install or uninstall anything they want – including non-MS software. You state that if they go too far, you’ll change to something else, Linux is mentioned.

          This is only possible if there is an alternative, a situation you don’t support by repeatedly praising Window to be the be-all end-all. So not only do you call those who want choice various bad names, and question their knowledge and professionality, but you also expect us to pull you out of trouble when time comes.

          English is not my native language, but I think the word to use is ‘freeriding’.

        • #3134978

          sense missing

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Logic missing

          The linux thing. I can understand why you didn’t understand that.

          I said a million fixes for one error not a million errors. So your car analogy is way of the mark, It’s more like an open source designed car with I design flaw. The flaw can have million fixes from a million people but only one is needed. You get a million fixes from open source developers for open source errors but you only get one fix from M$.

          Linux update versus Windows update, that’s a whole other thread. I graduated from uni and now work with M$

          Microsoft have a team that find more of their own errors and vulnerabilities as well as suffering the attacks from outsiders or being notified by the super know-it-all techie intent on destroying M$. I must of slept through the WMF disaster cause I have no idea what you are talking about.

          Microsoft are yet to contact me and tell me to uninstall software that exist on my computer from other vendors. They own the operating system not the hardware (but there operating system does require that the hardware stay the same once the OS is installed). I also have not been summoned by Microsoft to supply my computer to them (and hope that never happens). Man. you all of a sudden made me very paranoid.

          I can’t remember ever calling/typing anyone a bad name\s. What where these names and who did I call them too? What trouble am I in? More with the making me paranoid. Not accepting what other people say or tell you is a good thing, accepting what other people say just cause they say it and they have evidence is a bad thing. There was this one situation, where the leader of one country which the country is pretty big and powerful, hated the leader of the other country and wanted to destroy this leader, but the rest of the world wanted to avoid violence. but apparently there has hard evidence\facts that the country was a big threat to the world because they had WMD’s, so the big country just went ahead and killed heaps of people anyway in the smaller country (and lot more people died, more than in a certain terrorist attack that killed people in the big powerful country). but thee fact was, there where no WMD’s but the big country wiped the country of the guy they hated for no other reason other then simply because they could and wanted too.

          English is not my native language, so what the heck are you talking about ‘freeriding’.

          If I lack logic you lack sense.

        • #3134918

          While you don’t need to be PARANOID

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to sense missing

          It sure as HELL helps when dealing with Microsoft. Have you even bothered to read the EULA that comes with every piece of MS software. Granted most people do not bother and just click on [b]ACCEPT[/b] even the Tech boys & girls from MS skip over this one but its worth reading every once in a while just to help you remember who you are dealing with when you use MS software. 😀

          Even then the EULA is vague and I had a very senior QC explain to me that the XP Pro EULA actually meant that you where buying a license to run the one OS on 2 computers as it specifically says that you can use it with 2 CPU’s. Now I take this to mean that you can use XP Pro with a Dual processor M’Board and I certainly don’t have the buckets loads of money to take this one to court nor the time to waste arguing the legalities of the XP Pro EULA but the point is that if the EULA is so badly written as to make a Senior QC think that it means something different to what is intended does it really have any legal standing on this side of the pond where the laws are different to the USA? :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3092632

          Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          by wayne t ·

          In reply to While you don’t need to be PARANOID

          QUOTE
          I certainly don’t have the buckets loads of money to take this
          one to court nor the time to waste arguing the legalities of the
          XP Pro EULA but
          /END

          I wouldn’t worry about it, Col – there’s a *very* strong body of
          opinion, evidence and actual Law which suggests that, as no-
          one ever reads the things and everyone knows that no-one ever
          reads the things then they can be deemed ‘unread and
          inapplicable’ *anyway* …

          – Just watch and see 🙂

        • #3092626

          MS EULA is not worth a Brass Razoo… Legally. (IMNSHO). [NM]

          by wayne t ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          missing subject last post.

          edit ‘busted’.

        • #3107226

          Wayne T you might get a laugh out of this one

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          I know I did. On my companies Web Page is a Sample EULA from MS and I was shocked when I got a phone call from M$ not to remove the sample EULA but the Hyperlink to their Anti Piracy Hotline and its phone number.

          Admittedly they where not overly impressed with the Linux/Unix part of the page but they just had to live with it but I couldn’t believe the marketing people wanting the Anti Piracy side of things removed particularly after I had got permission to use it from the same section of M$. 🙂

          Actually I don’t worry overly about the EULA as most of what I use is all Volume License stuff so I really don’t have an issue with the EULA but I do think it funny that even the MS Techs brush over this at the partner meetings. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3092764

          “and now work with M$”

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to sense missing

          It says a lot doesn’t it?. How much did they pay you to start this thread?

          /Peter

        • #3093424

          It would appear

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to “and now work with M$”

          That M$ are in the habit of giving away money when there are goobers like me promoting them for free.

          😉

        • #3254629

          Sign me up for the farm too, Windows is driving me crazy! ;-)

          by ni2sml ·

          In reply to funny farm called and I’m on my way

          Your refrigerator. What does it do? It seems that it’s only function is that it turns on and doesn’t need to be turned off. Why are you staring at me like I’m some kind of scary freak?

          I have a 20-bedroom mansion with awesome views, lakefront access, a HUGE covered dock (with a bar) and a climate-controlled 10-car garage. I haven’t built it yet, but it’s a GREAT place to live! Hey, quit laughing…respect my opinion dammit! I KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT!

          😉

          Really now, how is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you assert that I might have a server for no reason other than to consume electricity, or that you own something but haven’t built it yet.

          A heartfelt THANK YOU, however, for giving me the biggest belly laugh I’ve had in ages! 😀

          For the record and in all seriousness, since you asked, my Linux server serves multiple websites, with PHP and Coldfusion support, MySQL for the database stuff, an SSH server so I can login, do administration tasks, upload files, and open a secure tunnel from my workstation to the MySQL server. It has everything I need to write and compile my own programs and as a result it runs a couple of simple C programs I threw together which upload our current product list to Froogle every night and email me if anything went wrong (I could have achieved the same thing using a shell script, but the C program is a bit more elegant). It emails me copies of all important system logs overnight including any changes to system files so I have a better chance of detecting any intrusions or problems which may occur. Of course, it *doesn’t* switch off, because a couple of separate businesses depend on it. Disk and memory space not used up by unneccessary and non-optional OS functionality is saved for database tables, the websites which use them and the server applications which serve it all up to Joe User.

          Sadly, it doesn’t make fresh coffee. It is, despite that, what you might call “mission critical”.

          Our mission may not be as high-profile as Google, or Amazon, or the official website of the White House, or NASA, or any of the other high-profile organizations which use Linux (including this very site you’re reading right now 😉 ), but it matters to us, and we trust Linux to not let us down.

        • #3253405

          Linux

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Sign me up for the farm too, Windows is driving me crazy! ;-)

          Form reading what you say, It seems to me, that it is a person (you) keeping the “mission critical” network server setup alive and running. Using those same skills, I’m pretty sure you would be equally qualified (if not more) to run the same set up with windows 2k3, IIS and .aspx/.net framework support, and M$ SQL Server 2k for the database stuff, and just use windows terminal server to log-in and do admin stuff. You can also install “free” apps that can do every thing you need to write your own programmes.

          Where I work using the Windows alternative is actually far cheaper than going UNIX or Linux. The org I work for does not have the budget of NASA. I don’t think the country I work in has that kind of money.

          Don’t give up on your server not making coffee just yet, with all the money you save using “free” apps, you could try this

          http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/06/13/extreme_modding/index.html

          You can put the same trust in “Windows”, you just have to give it a try. 😉

        • #3091524

          Well I’ve run both types of systems

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Linux

          On identical hardware in a place where [b]MISSION CRITICAL[/B] means millions of $ per hour and I’ve seen first hand that the Windows boxes just don’t cut the mustard over a 6 month trial.

          The Windows Boxes have a 4 to 1 difference in downtime. That is reboots required for patches, Memory Leaks that do occur with every Windows Box and other simple things that should not require a reboot from a High Tech OS.

          And none of the above even takes into account intrusion prevention and other threats that adversely affect any Windows Box.

          Sorry Been There Done That and the customer wants Nix not Windows as it’s way too expensive for them to put Mission Critical applications on a Windows Box. Not even the discount offered by MS made it anywhere close to economical to switch to the MS OS.

          Nix of any kind only requires a reboot when major Kernel changes have been made not every tine some minor piece of software is installed. Even something as simple as a reboot costs this company a considerable sum of money even in the off peak periods and it only gets worse from there on in the terms of money lost when a reboot is required.

          Col ]:)

        • #3091330

          the challenge

          by spareher ·

          In reply to Well I’ve run both types of systems

          I see a lot of posts where people talk about migrating to ‘nix but we sometimes don’t have that option. For instance the best software (features-wise)for my industry is only on Windows. And in fact, our entire infrastructure except for network monitoring (LINUX), is AD on Win 2003. We don’t have the frequent outages others mention. We usually only have to reboot for security patches otherwise no issues. But my point is sometimes you have to choose windows or settle for something sub-standard or immature.

        • #3252088

          While true partially

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to the challenge

          On the server side of things I’ve always found the Nix option the better of the two.

          However I’ve seen different versions of various Nixes where IE6 and other specific Windows only programs are running on NB’S and unless you know the difference most end users would think that they where actually working on an XP box.

          Actually one thing that I should mention here is those so called [b]Security Patches[/b] isn’t normal unless you only use MS products.Monthly reboots are not normally required by a decent OS it is the limited ones that cause the real problems. Currently Novell is pushing SUSE for corporate wide use and really it looks quite good at least the [i]Trial Version[/i] that I got.

          Col

        • #3091329

          the challenge

          by spareher ·

          In reply to Well I’ve run both types of systems

          duplicate entry

    • #3109856

      Windows the best OS? The best OS for wasting my time

      by louis_b9 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Don’t get me wrong, there’s some things that windows does quite well, like Plug & Play hardware (thanks to hardware manufacturers for drivers and not to windows). Even then, not all. Try installing an Iomega parallel port zip drive without manually downloading a driver. Linux recognizes it right away. Networking in windows, however, is excellent and easier than Windows.

      I have used Microsoft’s OSes since early versions of DOS through Windows 3.1, 3.11, Win95, 98, 98SE, 2000, XP Home and XP Pro SP2. I can’t count the amount of frustating hours trying to get stuff working right, from CD Writers in Win98, Zip drives and anti-virus programs. I’ve spent thousands of dollars on Windows software. If Linux, as it has developed in the past couple of years, was available when Win95 came out, I would have gladly paid twice the amount just to avoid the frustrations of Windows.

      With the exception of a few problems, Linux is fantastic. I compile my own kernels to get the functionality I need. I have 10 kernels to choose from on boot-up. I compile programs from source when necessary. I can’t remember the last time I had to reboot after installing a program or changing a configuration. There are only a couple of programs that I require that do not have a Linux version. Some will run quite well using Wine and only two require Win4Lin, which allows me to run Win98 in an X-Window. Guess what, Win98SE runs like a scalded cat in a Linux window, boots in 15 seconds and never BSDs. Vulnerability to viruses is there but will never affect the Linux OS underneath. A tarred backup of the windows OS restores things to pristine conditions in a few seconds if something goes wrong. And, I can run several Linux programs while Windows is running.

      DVD and CD burning is built-in and virtually fool-proof. 500 CD-Rs without a single dud. Media players, like MPlayer leave WMP in the dust. Rip CDs? Built-in. Word processing, spreadsheets, image viewers are at least as good as anything available for windows. I can create pdf files without Adobe Acrobat. Wget is probably the best downloader and web-site replicator available. Period. Command line (bash) is fantastic, nothing like it built-in in Windows. Writing bash scripts is fun (and Im not a geek). Far easier to run a program from the command line than from the GUI. I’ve got 2910 programs / utilities available, not including built-in bash commands. I can see the last 100,000 commands used. Web browsers: Konquerer, Opera, Firefox and two text-based web-browsers (Links and Lynx) which are lightning-fast to load pages. Many choices of mail clients but Evolution knocks the socks off Outlook. Gimp is at least as good as Photoshop. I have opened a 80 Mb image file in Gimp without problems. Try that in Photoshop. Or ACDSee if you want to reboot your PC.

      Don’t like the GUI interface? I have a choice of 4 to boot into.

      Yes, there are frustrations, like setting-up printers or winmodems (what a ripoff). But, if you stick to HP LaserJet and external modems, works just fine.

      Re-install the OS once a year like you have to do for Windows when it slows to a crawl? I’ve got a notebook running Mandrake 9 for 3 years now and it boots just as fast as when it was installed and also a PC with Redhat 7.2 for 5 years now with no problems. It’s been running continuously, with shutdowns once every 3 or 4 months.

      BTW, the Internet has nothing to do with Windows OS. Try Unix for the backbone of the Internet. Even Microsoft uses Unix and Linux for servers. Apache web servers running under Linux are used by far more web sites than Microsoft servers. Our company used to use a Win2000/Novell server as a proxy server. Switched to Linux/Apache and got rid of the problems.

      But, for people who can’t or won’t utilize a bit of the gray matter between their ears and are willing to waste time, Window is really their only choice. Both are terrible things to waste.

      • #3109752

        Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

        by dnsb ·

        In reply to Windows the best OS? The best OS for wasting my time

        You wrote “Our company used to use a Win2000/Novell server as a proxy server. Switched to Linux/Apache and got rid of the problems.”

        Was that a Win2K box running Microsoft’s Proxy or ISA or a Novell Netware box running Bordermanager? Two very different products.

        Also any reason for using the Apache proxy module rather than Squid or other dedicated proxy service?

        • #3109722

          Good question

          by louis_b9 ·

          In reply to Reply To: The best OS ever without a doubt

          Don’t really know. I was told that it was Win2K box but error messages would pop-up with a Novell Bordermanager signature. In any case, the server was often down. Later, I was told that the server is now using RedHat, which meant that out of say 1000 PCs in 6 very remote locations all linked by VSAT, only 3 are running Linux (2 of mine and the proxy server). The other servers for Oracle and Lotus Notes are running Win2K. The company is implementing Windows Active Directory (Win2003), which will pose a new challenge as the sole non-WinXP user but there are Linux distros such as Xandros 2.5 that will authenticate to AD.

          You are right, not Apache but Squid as I recall now.

    • #3109840

      This is laughable

      by iguanasrule ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      I’ll bet you’ve faithfully paid M$ every few
      years to keep your MCP current and bought every
      version of Windows starting with Win95. Heck,
      I’ll bet you even were one of the people who
      waited in line for it when it first showed up in
      stores.

      I was sort of like you once, too. Then, in 2003,
      I bought a copy of SuSE 8.2 and installed it. My
      first reaction was “Wow!” Basically, I put the
      disk in, watched the installation work, rebooted
      the system when it was done, and then had a
      complete system with an office program
      (OpenOffice), several e-mail clients (both
      graphical and shell-based), three web browsers,
      and just about anything else I would need — all
      done in a little over two hours. So, for $90
      U.S., I got a complete system that would have
      cost up to $1,000 had I stuck with Microsoft
      products. SuSE has been my primary OS ever
      since.

      Have you tried buying SuSE 10.0 online? If not,
      the installation via FTP isn’t that hard.
      Download the boot ISO image from SuSE, boot from
      the CD, and follow the installation “wizard”
      along. The only difference is that you’ll have
      to change your software source installation
      location in YaST (the set-up tool) to their FTP
      locations instead of the CD-ROM drive. Other
      than that, it works the same.

      Recently I had a chance to visit a company that’s
      involved in e-commerce transaction processing.
      This company is ALL LINUX & UNIX except for the
      desktop. Why? It’s because they can’t afford
      downtime, high costs, security holes, and having
      bloat (needless GUIs mainly) sucking up valuable
      system resources. If Windows truly was the best
      OS, you would think it would be used universally,
      but it isn’t.

      And as for the Mac having sub-standard
      functionality, take a look at the Aqua interface
      and the Mach kernel. Oh, and did I mention that
      you can pretty much run most all Unix programs on
      it? This includes running it as a mail server
      using Sendmail and a database server using MySQL.
      You may now explain to us how your copy of WinXP
      can do those things — including serving over two
      concurrent users.

      I must say, the level of ignorance demonstrated
      by your post is profound. I would hope that, if
      you work in IT and hope to advance in your
      career, that you develop some knowledge of other
      operating systems because sooner or later you
      will encounter them — either at your employer or
      by way of an organization that does business with
      your employer. Obviously it would not help if
      you dumbfounded at the sight of one of these
      other OS’s.

    • #3109818

      Nitwit.

      by iceman52 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Son, you are confused…or ignorant. What constitutes “best” to you is obviously the product of a constipated analysis. Perhaps it would be helpful to learn something about other operating systems before dismissing them.

      Our industry is littered with superlitive products taht are dead and gone because somebody made bad marketing decisions. Just because MS-Windows controls most of the oxygen we all breath, doesn’t mean it’s good to live that way. Duh.

    • #3109808

      insanity

      by lalala ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      wasn’t it Einstein who said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

      these Windows vs Linux “discussions” are insane (on this site anyway). it’s the same sh** over and over again. unless there is something positively helpful to those who want to learn something from either platform, improve their business, etc..SHUUUUTT UUUUUPP!!!!

      certain experienced post-ers offer very good insight on both sides which I can appreciate, the others need to relax and get back to work.

    • #3109770

      Best or most popular

      by dnsb ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by best? Most popular? Most technologically advanced? Easiest to use? Most features “borrowed” from other operating systems? Easiest target for script kiddie hackers?

      As for Apple being sued by Microsoft? That shoe seems to have been on the other foot.

      As for Linux and learning for life. Are you saying that there have been no new features in Windows since 1.0? You havent’ had to learn anything new? Linux does have a steeper learning curve than Windows. OTOH, if you stop learning, they may as well put you to bed with a shovel.

    • #3109759

      What Winux wants to be when it grows up!

      by palmer.sims ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Answer – Sun Solaris 10 /Staroffice –
      Solaris – Running Virus free for 20+ years!

      • #3258385

        Many questions about Solaris 10…

        by louis_b9 ·

        In reply to What Winux wants to be when it grows up!

        Some time in 2005, I downloaded a complete set of Solaris 10 CDs. I’ve got a new notebook with a large enough hard drive so that I can multi-boot WinXP, a couple of flavours of Linux and possibly Solaris. Questions:

        Is it possible to boot Solaris using Grub/Lilo or Windows bootloader? Or does Solaris hog the first active primary partition like Windows likes to do?

        Can Linux programs (source) be compiled for installation under Solaris? Alternatively, does Solaris provide a full suite of software equivalents.

        Are Windows emulators, like Wine in Linux available?

        Can Solaris read / write to ext3/ReiserFS/vfat/NTFS formatted partitions (to be able to share data among the various OSes)?

        What about hardware support (drivers) for printers, etherner cards, etc?

    • #3094260

      If WHAT????

      by rmrenneboog ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Oh, you are just so young! Microsoft did not “invent” Windows. A very much younger Bill Gates and his buddy, Steve Jobs, together developed the first commercial version of DOS upon which (and forever after apparently) all future MS ‘operating systems’ would depend in one form or another. Mr. Gates made this the foundation of the company he named “MicroSoft”. Eventually, he and Mr. Jobs parted business ways, and Jobs developed the Apple OS, based on an entirely different CPU architecture and intended from day 1 to be accessed and used via a Graphical User Interface (no command line, like DOS, ever). The Apple OS always was a more stable, efficient, and solid graphics-based OS than DOS, and as such drew the attention of a large number of neophyte PC users (which describes pretty much ALL PC users at that time). The Apple market share posed a serious threat to the DOS PC market share then, so Mr. Gates did what it seems all serious business people do when threatened by products superior to their own: make a cheap knock-off rather than a better product. Thus Mr. Gates’ programmers were tasked to design and code a GUI to run on top of DOS (which it still does to this day) AND make it look like the Apple GUI. He called it “Windows”. Thus the war began.
      Microsoft did not ‘invent’ Windows any more than a photographer invents the scenery in a landscape photograph.

      • #3096839

        Billy Gates greatest Invention :

        by wayne t ·

        In reply to If WHAT????

        is the Story his massively-budgeted PR dept. has been selling
        the world… – as RMJ says, the only thing Billy ever ‘Invented’
        was the story – the rest is bought, plaigerised, blatently copied,
        reverse engineered or simply ‘Inspired by’ (=stolen from…).

        He didn’t even ‘write’ or conceive or design ‘DOS’ – that was
        Seattle micro. – Billy just optioned it when he heard some IBM
        innocents were ‘looking for an OS for a “personal Computer” …
        and Gerry K of Digital Research had gone fishing and wasn’t
        taking their Calls…”

        🙂

        He *did* write a BASIC Interpreter once…. but it wasn’t an
        outstanding feat, nor a world first – it had all been done before
        (Dartmouth etc…) and was something *any* reasonable
        programmer/hacker of the time would’ve been able to ‘whip up’
        over a day or two … [I recall writing one whilst making a batch of
        ‘cookies’ *grin*]

        Billy has *never* been a clever TechHead, let alone a computer
        Guru … – he’s a geek in a suit : a Businessman – And, in the
        tradition of the great US Model of the rapacious Robber-Baron,
        in the right place, right time, grabs an advantage over the
        Hicks…he’s been a very successful one. he’s been playing the
        Public, Govt and Industry Newbies for fools ever since.
        Only IMNSHO, of course … 🙂

    • #3094226

      Big sigh….

      by musickbass ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Heh…heres what all you “professionals” are forgetting…overlooking, whatever you want to call it.
      Wether you like it or not, Windows IS the number 1 OS. Its very simple as to why. The average user, can sit down with and do WHATEVER it is they want to do with it. With very little book time. Surf the internet, read/write emails, play games, etc.

      The average user CANNOT do this with linux….at least not yet. If you want linux to be the LEADING OS on the market, why dont all you high and mighty gurus, stop whining and slamming Gates, and make linux as user friendly as windows.
      Hell, you can even charge people money for it!!!’
      Ill buy it and install it myself.
      Oh wait, thats against the whole Linux open source philosophy isnt it? Or maybe not, they do have some for sale….not exactly for your average user though is it.

      Then of course you run the risk of all the leet hackers focusing on hacking Linux now instead of Windows. Whats yer excuse gonna be then?

      Anyway, come out of your geek towers, and remember the actual majority of users, dont want to and arent going to spend the time to learn to use Linux. Wanna change the world? Step up and do it, quit whining that no one else has done it yet.

      As a side note…during that anti-trust crap, which was BS by the way….cause lets face it, there were PLENTY of alternative browsers to use.
      But hey, MS got to big and wasnt tossin any to the politicians, yet another big ol evil mean corporation that needed to be brought to its knees.
      Gates shoulda took his cash and flipped a bird to everyone, as he closed the doors to MS. Just think, then you all coulda been in Linux heaven where everything is perfect. RIIIIIGHT.

      Anywho…want a Linux world? Make it happen.
      But for now, its the Windows world that Bill created. Like it or not.

      • #3094173

        I don’t know about you…

        by rmrenneboog ·

        In reply to Big sigh….

        Sounding so smug and all like you know the answers and everyone else is a dummy.
        Straight answer… yes or no: have you ever installed and used Linux?

        There is a point in time when I never had either. Then I went out and bought a commercial release of Mandrake 7 Linux. Took it home, put the installation CD into the drive, clicked on install, then sat back and swapped CDs as required. LESS than 15 minutes later, and with no training in Linux of any kind, I’m on the system using the default GUI that installs (one of 6 equally easy-to-use GUI’s that came with the package), doing everything you can do with a mouse, and wondering why the heck everyone (like you, I guess) seems to think there is some nightmare associated with running a Linux system.
        Oh, and did I mention that the office suite that came with it could do all sorts of stuff that you need high-priced Windows programs to do otherwise?
        Granted, there are some things that it couldn’t do without the help of an actual wizard, like run games designed for Windows right out of the box. And there are some things that it doesn’t have, but who needs dancing paperclips anyway? All the extra code required for that sort of crap just makes the program bigger anyway. So why have it at all?
        By the way, how much is Big Bill kicking back to you for defending his products?

    • #3094218

      Have to Agree — Microsoft works better!

      by jminotti ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      I have a small business with 15 employees. I have tried setting up a linux server with a RedHAT subscription and that was a time consuming disaster. I don’t have an IT Dept. All I wanted to do is set up a File server, web server, and an intranet. First, setting up Samba to work correctly with different groups, users and shares took part of my life away that I will never get back. Sticky Bit. What the heck is a sticky bit and why the heck do I even want to know what that is; I don’t! I am not even going to get into setting up Apache and MYSQL. That was even worse. Needless to say, Linux humbled me and brought me to my knees. I Gave up and was saved by Microsoft Windows 2003 server. I am not exagerating when tell you I was able to set up the whole system the way I needed it in a few short hours. Microsoft is very intuitive and the books available are written well enough to get the job done easily. I never had to make a phone call. I have a domain controller, File server and an internal intranet. The Server has been up for almost a year now without rebooting. Great OS. Can’t be beat. If you are a larger company you can use MS instead of Linux and probably get rid of half you IT staff becuase MS is so easy to administer.

      Go Microsoft !!

      • #3094111

        Microsoft works better than Linux?

        by nickhandres ·

        In reply to Have to Agree — Microsoft works better!

        Sorry for your bad experience. Next time try a Mac and save
        yourself a ton of trouble. Macs come with Samba and Apache.
        MySQL takes 5 minutes to download and install. Achieving
        Windows file sharing is a ONE CHECKBOX affair.

        How do I know? Well, that’s what I run here. I back up my
        Windows machines over the network to the Mac servers – no
        problem. There is also PHP, Python, and Xtools (including
        WebObjects) that come standard on the Mac.

        Look, I’ve got to get back to work doing something productive
        (and on a Mac) so good luck and go drive one of these things
        sometime.

      • #3110315

        and your IP address is?

        by melser.anton ·

        In reply to Have to Agree — Microsoft works better!

        Just for fun… tell us your domain name or IP address and we’ll see just how “easy” it is. 30 minutes of hacking and your wonderful “few hours” will be brought to a standstill. Would you like some p0rn on all your users’ desktops?
        Whether you use m$, linux or some other brand of *nix there is NOTHING that will replace a network admin. No amount of “click to install” will remove the fact that a computer network needs expertise, not only to install but also to maintain.
        Chrs
        A
        ps. I read somewhere that the average linux admin manages 4x the number of servers the average winders admin manages. So even with the exorbidant fees redhat are charging…

      • #3110149

        Dude, you can’t be serious

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Have to Agree — Microsoft works better!

        So typing service httpd start and service mysql start was too hard? After that you just have to create and index.html for Apache (looking at the default Apache page tells you EXACTLY what to do) and setup your mysql database permissions.

        Samba can be a pain, but there is a metric ton of documentation out there and O’Reilly puts out a GREAT book on setting it up.

    • #3094194

      OS and the KISS principle

      by wendygoerl ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      There is only one reason I use Windows: the programs I need to run are written for Windows. A graphic interface may be more pleasing to idiot users, but truth is: you’ve got a digital mind trying to follow analog instructions–and that causes problems. Give a user a text-menu and they click “A” or “B.” Give a user a graphic display and a mouse and they click “A 1/2” then the computer has to figure out if it should execute “A” or “B.” It might decide the user said “B” when the user thought she said “A,” or it might make a “thung-I-heard-you” noise and not do anything because it’s so busy chewing the proverbial bubble gum it forgot to keep walking.

      Engineers are taught the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid! Logic being, the fewer parts, the fewer things to break. What is every new version of Windows? More parts, more things to break/clash/crash. It’s common knowledge that the more Windows get used the more unstable it gets. To me that’s an inexcuseable fault. To MicroSoft’s marketing department, that’s the excuse to sell them Windows: Next.

      Y’know, back in college we had to get our own copies of MatLab. Most of the class got the Windows version: a couple of us bought the DOS version. Certain files had to be saved to a particular directory on the network (I don’t remenber which or why). The DOS versions figured out where to put it automatically. The teacher’s “save” instructions for the Windows students?: Ask a DOS user to tell you the directory number their program is saving to.

    • #3094174

      MORE HERE THEN THERE

      by michalbrown ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      I think windows get the biggest hammer throwen on it because they have the biggest % of customers there for 3 to 4 times more complants I bet if you account for all the sales of Microsoft compared to each of all the other os
      you would see windows has the lions share & sure it’s fare from perfect but it’s a lot easyer then most of the others if not all it’s just that when you get the lions share of the customers you get the lions share of the complants all the others ar’nt complant free & more food for thoght I don’t see all the complaners going to the other os do you I think it’s just a way of blowing off steam when your upset when it’s over all is well but when it’s fresh it’s a bugger & hard to blow out ha ha ha take care stay healthy & be happy I did’nt buy my computer to be a grumbler all though I have my moments to thank’s for the oppertunity
      P.S.
      may the lord overwhelm you with ample blessing to spreed around. & be happy

    • #3094153

      People bash windows

      by richard ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      People bash windows because,

      10:it is bloated,
      9:it is slopy code
      8:Microsoft has preditory busninss practices
      7:everytime they are forced to upgrade their computer gets slower and harder to use.
      6:they are forced to upgrade when their may be nothing more they need.
      5:Windows does not play well with others
      4:Features are removed to later become add on products for add on price. (
      3:security was an afterthought, by design
      2:networking was an afterthought
      1:
      and the number one reason people like Windows is
      they don’t know anything else

    • #3094145

      TROLL

      by ibanezoo ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

    • #3094136

      Opinion are like rear end every one has one

      by dumblogic ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Well windows is out there but not the greatest it can stand to be totaly overhauled.
      Bill Gates never wrote any of its software they stole it change it up and called it their own. Example windows 3.X was stolen from apple computer. Apple then re wrote their software where it is more user friendy with gui and drag n drop feature where as windows wasn’t you gad to reload the cdrom drive every time you turn on windows, which force Bill Gate to write or steal another software and call it Windows 95.
      What a fiasco it crashes every time you use it, second you had to buy a tune up disk to fix it and third it wasn’t usb compatable till the second version came out. I ask the room take a look at norton or macaffe website and look at the virus warning and see which operation system it infected the most 9 times out of ten it is windows coincident I think not. If bill Gates hadn’t gotten message by now he will never get it.

    • #3094114

      You Have Got to Be Crazy

      by wlbowers ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Are you out of your everloving mind. Microsoft was still farting
      around with dos hell when Apple was given the GUI by Zerox.
      Quote” Nothing will ever come of that” UnQuote.

      EVERY FEATURE THAT IS IN WINDOWS WAS STOLEN FROM
      MACINTOSH.

      That dude is flat out fact.

      Microsoft had weathered lawsuits out the wazoo to steal and
      keep the inovations that were stolen from Mac.

      Oh yea! If Mac is so crude, why did Bill Gates invest $150 million
      in Apple several years back.

      I have used Dos since the ’60’s and bought my first Mac in the
      late ’80’s.

      I service Mac and Windows customers in my business. If it wasn’t
      for Windows I would starve. I get a Mac related call about once
      every 2 months. I usually can handle that over the phone.

      No the bugs don’t get fixed. They get reborn. Every patch that
      microsoft does will cripple or damage some application or part
      of their own system. Have you ever read the post that are
      included with every patch.

      Sub standard. Sheeze, Windows is as close to a carbon copy of
      the Mac GUI as windows can get it without bring down the wrath
      of the all mighty attorneys.

      Every hosting isp offers windows, linux, and Macintosh based
      servers.

      There are programmers that code windows software using
      Macintosh computers because they can stand the crashing that
      goes on with Dos based machines.

      Yea thats right, Dos based. Think it’s not still there. Go to start
      run and type cmd and see what comes up. I still have to drop to
      dos to fix some of the crazy things that happen is windows.

      Go in to almost any Elementary or Jr High School and see what is
      in their computer labs.

      If windows died right now Apple would pick up the slack and the
      web would keep rignt on trucking, only just a little more stable.

      You want to play a lot of games get windows. You want to do
      some heavy graphics work without rebooting or waiting forever,
      get a Macintosh. What do you think is in Industrial Light &
      Magics workstations. It Dang shure ain’t Windows.

      Macintosh is porting to the Intel platform not because their
      hardware is getting tired. But because the windows users can’t
      even begain to understand why a 2.5gig RISC processor will tear
      up a 4gig Pentium.

      Windows is a pox on mankind. If it is a wheel it has a flat spot.
      The only reason I want it to stay around is it puts food on my
      table from fixing all of the “undocumented features” that they
      keep putting in their software. NOTE: that’s technician slang for
      BUGS!

      Good luck in life. Ya gonna need it.

      Lee
      Micro Support Technologies
      Computer Engineer since 1974

    • #3094104

      This Again

      by your mom 2.0 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Come on, people. This discussion has already happened like about a million times now. MS vs. the Rest of the World.

      Personally I’m tired of the propaganda from either camp. Seems like the fanatics on either side deem it necessary to try to force their opinions on everyone else.

      If your OS does what you need it to do, great. If not, use a different OS. Move on and let it go.

      I have an opinion about which OS I prefer, but sharing it here and then having ten fanatics argue with me about it is just a waste of time.

      A bit of advice to both camps: correct grammar and spelling would greatly help your credibility.

      • #3094065

        BEOS

        by wizardb9 ·

        In reply to This Again

        was probably the best os in the making until MS had it quashed

        • #3258277

          Heard good things about it

          by your mom 2.0 ·

          In reply to BEOS

          A buddy of mine really liked it, but I never checked it out.

          At my job I support approx 200 users using mainly Windows 2k / XP in an AD environment. By locking down the user accounts via group policy, keping a tight reign on the firewall config, and setting up SPAM filters and antivirus on the mail server we’ve managed to keep the PCs functional yet still protect the users from themselves.

          Windows does what our users need, the few problems I encounter that I can’t immediately solved myself are well-documented and easy to research (most of the time), and all other software my users need is written for Windows.

          In my case, my fav OS is what I know works best for my users & organization. Notice I said “fav OS”, not “best OS”. And I assume like most people, my favorite is the one I know the best.

        • #3258110

          At least

          by richard ·

          In reply to Heard good things about it

          at least you have an good answer.
          everyone must use what solves their busninss problems.
          If the windows monopoly is broken you will have more options

      • #3110294

        Well in that case

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to This Again

        Which version of English do you want used?

        British English, US English, Australian English, Canadian English or what?

        First you’ll have to tell us all which version of English to use so we don’t type in colour instead of color. 😀

        Col ]:)

        • #3110261

          Good Point There

          by your mom 2.0 ·

          In reply to Well in that case

          Each “version” of English has its own flavor (or “flavour”, if you prefer). No need to split hairs here…I realize there’s different cultures contributing and every one has their own wacky way of doing and saying things (including me). The point I was trying to make is that when someone replies and it sounds as if a nine-year-old wrote it after running out of Ritalin then the person who wrote it probably loses a bit of credibility. It always seems like it’s the same idiots who contribute to soap opera and professional wrestling forums must be behind the keyboards.

          I think it’s silly when people get so impassioned about this issue (MS vs. Anything / Everything Else). Every point and counter-point about it has already been made countless times before, and I won’t get pulled in to it.

          Not a big fan of inappropriate emoticons either, but I’ll let that slide 🙂 😉

        • #3110254

          Well I try to keep it humorous

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Good Point There

          As I find it hard to get too involved in this entire argument. MS vs Nix, AMD vs Intel and any number of other different things that are used in the IT field. They are all the same and constantly creep up.

          So I just try to laugh it off and throw in a bit of comedy. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3110144

          and which USA English do you recommend

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Well in that case

          In the USA they have two versions of English –

          Media Reporter English and

          General Usage English

          With MRE to hear the wrong words would leave me ‘Decimated’.

          Whilst with GUE the situation would leave me ‘Devastated’.

    • #3094027

      DUHH

      by computer mechanic ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Who dropped this guy on his head? Microsoft didn’t invent windows. I believe it was Apple. Maybe somebody before that. Oh, yes, a carpenter!
      He doesn’t go back far enough with Microsoft! I remember every Microsoft OS starting with MS DOS 3.1, Maybe before that, but I am old enought to not remember stuff an am entitled to do so.
      Anyway, Microsoft has NEVER come out with an O/S that didn’t have a LOT of bugs and that took a lot of skill to patch and / or workaround same.
      Go talk to someone who knows something besides a mouse.
      frankn@foggy.net

    • #3093961

      Windows can never be the best OS from a programmers’ perspective

      by silver chandrakant l. ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Windows can never be the best OS from a programmers’ perspective. By programmer I mean the ones who programs the UI for himself, be it a shell script or whatever.
      Just think the way the GUI works and how does it help a programmer when its shell (cmd or command) shell is so badly capable of scripting.
      Also, as compared to Linux (bash or other xyz-sh shell) Windows is no where in picture. A programmer will always want more flexibility, more power onto control his/her UI.
      Now, talking abt the GUI, KDE and gnome are doing far better and are improving very much for user-friendliness (for which generally “Microsoft” is known for) also the more easy error/info “sugar-coated” messages. So, Microsoft just has one-up w.r.t GUI but that won’t last for long since better development in Linux GUI can rather beat or be at par-with-Microsoft.

      So, I wud say that the so-called “BEST” depends on for who/whom it?s targeted for, and not overall.

      • #3258383

        What about the perspective of the programmers who programme Windows

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Windows can never be the best OS from a programmers’ perspective

        When M$ was fonded they did not program DOS, a programmer did. And his perspective he thought it was crap, so he dubbed it QDOS or Quick and Dirty Operating System, and form then on we were doomed.

        Anyway, programing is just algorithms formed in some language to do something to something. A lot of algorithms are made into windows applications a lot are made into Linux and windows programmer’s. So from programmers’ perspective if it’s good for one it’s good for the other.

        Do end users have less input into Linux GUI then a Windows GUI, probably yes. are end users programmers. yes.

        Linux is chaotic. if you think there is a million way to do this in Microsoft, then there is a million more ways to do stuff with open source.

        If MS have a good idea, programmers’ from Linux rip it off( reverse engineer it) and vise verse.

        For every good tool/app created by programmers’ for Linux they also create a version for Windows.

        As there are many different categories of OS there are so programmers’. And their perspective’s are only sometimes limited to there preferred choice of OS.

        • #3258170

          not so

          by richard ·

          In reply to What about the perspective of the programmers who programme Windows

          there is not a version of every good tool / program for windows.
          windows is slopy and poorly written, the compay is a bad company

        • #3110273

          You mean like needing to type in your

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to What about the perspective of the programmers who programme Windows

          Admin Password to install a new program like in Linux. Sorry I missed that one at my MS training and it’s one of the things that I’ve constantly suggested to MS to incorporate into their Windows System so that when running as Admin which most Home Computers are things like Viruses can not install themselves unless you are silly enough to allow them to and give them the ability to install themselves. :p

          Incidentally where in Windows are those 4 little boxes which give you a different desktop? I can not see them on this XP Pro Box but I must have missed installing something right? 😀

          This a a sore point right at the moment after spending 3 hours on the phone trying to tell someone how to shut down a Program I ended up just telling them to turn it off. This was all brought about because the brand new Vacuum Cleaner that they bought came with a round disc like thing that had a video on how the new play toy worked and it didn’t auto run into the video player when inserted into the computer it asked which Media Player the person wanted to use. They didn’t even know if it was a DVD or CD. It took about 45 minutes to eventually get it to run and then 30 minutes latter he was on the phone again asking how to shut it down. If he didn’t live so far away I would have driven down there just to see what was happening as he had me totally lost with what he was describing on the screen, and insisting that pressing the CTRL/ALT/Delete did nothing at all. I could have also gone down there and gone a little further and had a look at one of his fiends computers that I recently supplied apparently after 8 days they have managed to get just one Web Page to appear incorrectly and what to know what they have done to have this happen as it used to display correctly now you need to scroll all about just to get to the parts that you want. 🙂

          My answer was to download Firefox and that cured their problem but how just one web page displays with writing and pictures 22 MM high when they should appear as normal text and images is way beyond me. But at least in Firefox that banks web page appeared the correct size so he could do his banking. :p

          Col ]:)

    • #3093955

      Best OS Ever???

      by wburden ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Hope you didn’t get hurt when you fell off the soapbox! Do us all a favor: 1. Do some research before you spout off – some of your comments are just not accurate, 2. Find a good spell-checker before you publish, and 3. Good grammar and punctuation are not dead – try using both for any chance of credibility. Nuff said!

      • #3272799

        Which ones?

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Best OS Ever???

        which comments are just not accurate? What spelling mistakes are there? Grammar and punctuation are not things I have worked hard at perfecting, but I am open to being told what I got wrong (grammatically) and how it should be corrected (whit punctuation).

    • #3258380

      Consider this

      by nz_justice ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      IF you have scrolled down this far anyway.

      Microsoft are a large corporate entity with many partners. Now, if Microsoft with all there money and power want to say that they created their product, Who am I to argue. That argument could bankrupt a company, so I stand no chance of telling them that they did not create Windows and that some-else did and look I have proof.

      A few people seem to be complaining about the quality of my thread. Yes, it isn’t up to a full glad high paid lawyers argument, sorry about that.

      A few people seem to get picky and argue semantics of my thread.

      A few have even called it a troll.

      A few complained about logic.

      I would like to think that if I was surfing the TR and I went into the Linux discussion area I would find a tread there called the Best OS ever without a doubt, because there seems to be a lot of support for Linux in the Windows Discussion area.

      So how about this,
      IF you like windows, then it has to be “the greatest OS ever without a doubt”. IF you like something else then you don’t like windows.

      • #3258312

        or how about this?

        by rmrenneboog ·

        In reply to Consider this

        Windows is the most common OS for PCs(not ‘de facto’ the greatest, because believe it or not the world runs on good old UNIX and the becoming-ever-more-popular UNIX-like OSs that have lead us up to Linux). So if you think that makes Windows ‘the greatest OS ever’, that’s your definition.
        No matter what OS you are running, however, it runs the same hardware as any other OS has to run. Personally, I’d like to see computing systems develop into something like this: you have a basic hardware set (monitor, keyboard, mouse, memory drives, RAM, and other peripherals) but no embedded OS. Instead, the hardware platform has a plug-in for an OS module. Want to run Windows? Plug in the Windows module (any version). Want to run Linux? Same deal. Take out the Windows OS module and plug in the Linux OS module (any version). Want to run a different OS? No problem. Take out the module that’s there and plug in the module you want, even if it is your very own custom OS. It’s still all the same hardware! Or how about having multiple plug-ins that play nice together, and you could run any combination of OSs that you wish. It begs the question of why do we insist on accepting the same “one machine – one OS” concept we’ve had to accept as users since the Altair?

        • #3258250

          livecd

          by jdgeek ·

          In reply to or how about this?

          Knoppix and others allow you to do this with a cd or dvd. DSL, and I believe Puppy linux allow you to do this off of a usb key.

        • #3110155

          The OS plug ins is old hat

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to or how about this?

          Many moons ago a company I worked for made printers for main frame computers – when you ordered the printer you specified what brand of system you were connecting it to, the OS being used, and the connection type you wanted to use. When the printer went in for pre-delivery testing the tech would look at the order and go to the cupboard to get out a circuit board with the right type of connector on it and then the relevant little plug in ‘daughter’ boards to configure it with. He then placed this in the machine, ran diagnostics and it was ready to ship.

          One board for the cable connector and then plug in modules to translate sugnals for each OS and system.

        • #3108341

          capable doesn’t mean available…

          by rmrenneboog ·

          In reply to The OS plug ins is old hat

          No argument, the ability to do this has been with us since “day 1”. The commercial availability, however, has not, as the evolutionary path of the PC has been shackled securely to the ‘one system, one OS’ concept. At the risk of opening a huge can of worms, I comment that this has only recently been kicked into the spotlight (or at least the less shadowy edge of the spotlight) by the rise of Linux and the discussion around ‘dual boot’ systems. Certainly people have been able to run more than one OS on a single machine for some time, but their profile has been pretty low, and it is still only barely possible to run two types of software in the same system. Personally, I don’t think that software should be OS-specific, but that’s an entire discussion in itself.

        • #3108320

          Actually it has been done

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to capable doesn’t mean available…

          You may not remember but back in the early days of ISA etc there were some plug in cards that were totally software independent, everything you needed was on the card. they were mainly used for running extra hardware and peripherals but the worked.

          Some of the types I cards that I had used in those days were for

          SCSI devices
          comms port cards
          various video cards
          sound cards
          some early CD roms

          In those days everything got pushed through the cpu – everything had to speak in a common set of codes. The OS translated your apps instructions and your keyboard input to that code the system fed those codes to the cards and the cards changed them to what was wanted by the device attached to them. Did not matter what OS you had and you did not need drivers for them, if the card fitted it worked.

          Then they came up with the idea of common action codes sets and putting a lot of this stuff on the device itself, and of design changes to feed stuff around the cpu etc. This mean a whole new set of codes etc and the powers that be decided to go the route of the device driver loaded into the software – at one point they tried to have all software using common codes etc to get around this sort of stuff but many big players refused to play ball and that movement died.

        • #3109204

          Thanks

          by rmrenneboog ·

          In reply to Actually it has been done

          I did not know this. Thanks for the info. Do you think that this kind of OS-platform independence has a future, or are we doomed to playing the “proprietary devices” game forever after?

        • #3109062

          Sadly it is proprietary devices

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Thanks

          This was decided by the manufactures of hardware and software when we went from ISA to PCI. Those biggest names pushing this shift were MS, Intel, AMD, HP, Compaq, Dell, IBM and Apple. The tech driven move to go the other way go squashed badly.

          The intended end result of all this is the MS/Intel aim of Secured Computing – where the hardware and software will check for legitimate copies of software before doing anything or allowing you to talk on the network.

          If we had gone the other way then we would not have so many problem with compatibility between OSs.

          Those involved in the development of the Linux Kernels nearly all follow the other paradiem, and this shows in the Linux hardware driver backward compatibility.

        • #3088054

          SCO and dual boot systems long before Linux

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to capable doesn’t mean available…

          SCO had a dual boot system many years ago. You could boot DOS 3.3 – whatever. and SCO Xenix-Unixware. There were size limitations, but they were not really an issue in the old days.

          Back when you could actually have 16 people working productively on a 386/25 MZ with 8 MB of RAM and a 200 MB HD. Yes, that is right 16 people doing work – email, Word Processing, everything in 8MB RAM. Oh, and you could have color with a VT420, as well as at the console, if you wanted it.

          Today, Software is bloatware. at the OS level and the application level… Does anybody else remember writing overlays to fit in an 8k window?

      • #3258168

        how about this

        by richard ·

        In reply to Consider this

        come back in 10years, when you know enough to have an opinion

      • #3258139

        Bad logic …

        by phil.gillett ·

        In reply to Consider this

        Just because someone likes *nix doesn’t always mean that they don’t like Windoze. I like using Windoze. I like using any OS actually.
        Your statement is like saying I like my kids, but I don’t like anyone else’s kid(s). Bad logic and not true.

    • #3258284

      Windoze best OS ever? C’mon….

      by phil.gillett ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Just because it’s mass-produced (Budweiser, Miller, Windoze) doesn’t mean it’s the best. A lot of microbrews and imports have a much better taste than those two beers; in parallel, certain *nix flavors can run rings around Windoze regarding security and performance. Let’s not forget most *nix can run on more than one platform.
      I would also like to add that you should seriously go back to school and retake some grammar and spelling classes.

      • #3258272

        End of Disscussion.

        by snow-rider ·

        In reply to Windoze best OS ever? C’mon….

        No matter which one you like or what you think your wasting your time trying to change others opinions. I used to chase technology, Always trying to learn all I could. Guess what? In the end your all gonna die and none of this will matter. Stop wasting your time chasing technology. Take care of what is important. Enjoy life for the simple pleasures and spend time with friends and family. Do you what them to say “He really knew UNIX/Windows?” or do you what them to say “Man that guy really knew how to live and what was important.”?

        • #3258254

          Not the end

          by jdgeek ·

          In reply to End of Disscussion.

          It was just too convenient that your trust fund sponsored post came last snow-rider. Some of us have to work, and while doing that enjoy working on something challenging and interesting like IT.

          Since I have to work and I like IT, I’ll stick with it while you snowboard. As long as I am doing IT, I might as well care about what I am doing. As long as I care about what I am doing, I might as well try to convince others to embrace a method of computing that allows computers to interoperate on a network. As long as I am trying to convince others of this neccessity, I have to try educate them about how anathema this approach to computing is to MS.

          Go back to the mountains and let us geeks have our fun.

    • #3258117

      ohhh boy….

      by alanmcmindes ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      I was dragged kicking and screaming into the clone world. When I finally crashed my Amiga 2000 (with a GVP-3001 in it) in 1995, I had clones and Macs to pick from. Macs were still fairly expensive so I got into the clone world. I could not fathom how people could use clones and their OSs and think they were great systems. I look at Windows as the survival of the mediocre, because its the best that ‘people’ can aspire to.

      Thanks, I needed a good laugh. You do need to get out more often though.

    • #3110329

      Windows is the best WHAT? Ok back to reality…

      by zaferus ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Put the crack pipe away and listen to reality:

      HP-UX is the best operating system ever developed.

      Why?

      1. You hardly need to ever reboot the system.
      2. The system is incredibly stable. There are HP-UX servers that have been up for over 10 years without a power down.
      3. You can scale it almost indefinitely by adding hardware.
      4. It does what a computer is supposed to do. It runs without unexpected results day in, day out.

      If you speak against it, you probably haven’t seen it.

      This is why big companies that run 24×7 operations use it. NOT Windows. This OS properly built has more staying power than the energizer rabbit on viagra.

      If you’re talking about DESKTOPS, I think the best is still yet to come. I won’t endorse an OS that you have to reboot whenever you change anything on the system or cannot control it’s own processes.

      • #3272769

        “reboot”

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Windows is the best WHAT? Ok back to reality…

        Would you endorse an OS that performs it primary function, with out error, with out hassle, without any problems?

        If the answer is yes then you must support Windows.

        “reboot” the primary function of windows since it’s inception.

        • #3272754

          Really!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to “reboot”

          [i]Would you endorse an OS that performs it primary function, with out error, with out hassle, without any problems?[/i]

          I would but I’ve yet to see any version of Windows that works this way. After all what is the BSOD called and why is it so well known?

          There are very few systems that run this way and none of them have any form of Windows installed and best of all they do not allow an exe file to run and trash to OS without first asking to be installed unlike Windows whatever. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3088060

          Windows is the best at rebooting- Hal

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Really!

          There is no other system as good at rebooting as windows. It only happens 2-3 times/week with servers and 1-4 times a day on a desktop.

          Of course Windows is the best at rebooting…
          45.5% uptime. Yea! MS!!!

          (Now that I am done puking…)HA!

        • #3088852

          “reboot”

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Really!

          It what windows was built for. Install an application, “reboot”, update the OS, “reboot”, secure windows, “reboot”, first solution to try if nothing works “reboot”. No matter what stage of the cycle the OS is operation is in, it can still perform it’s primary function. If it freezes at start up “reboot”. It’s even on the OS shutdown menu.

          If there us a hardware failure, it might not “reboot”, but windows can’t be blamed for that.

          😀 :p 😉

    • #3110305

      I agree

      by liquidxit2 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Although I would love a cheaper OS and one that wasnt as resource hungry as windows has been and is now inreasing. Your right windows drives the market, the userbility, application support and overall ability makes it king. There is nothing we can do to change that fact, so why try to buck the system?

    • #3110257

      Getting the facts right

      by kall_ramanathan ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Please note:

      – The PC was invented by IBM
      – Microsoft started with MS-DOS on IBM PCs
      – Apple had MacOS and it ran only on windows
      – Apple created windows and the mouse
      – Have you heard of Appletalk? Best n/w ever!
      – Word processing was started by Wordperfect
      – Spreadsheets by Lotus 1-2-3
      – Presentation s/w by Harvard business graphics
      and, yes, Power point (not a microsoft company)
      – Desktop publishing by Pagemaker

      Microsoft bought some of them, copied some of them and, by virtue of their DOS being shipped out with *every* PC, managed to corner the marketshare.

      Now, please go do some research before posting such atrocious topics!

      • #3110251

        I believe Xerox invented the mouse as well as the GUI…

        by helpdesk ·

        In reply to Getting the facts right

        I believe Xerox invented the mouse as well as the GUI…

      • #3110232

        Where do I begin

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Getting the facts right

        Lets take them one at a time:

        – The PC was invented by IBM
        Well technically IBM did come out with a PC called a PC. But there was a computer called the Apple II that was out there before the IBM PC. It too was very capable. Many people credit the Apple II and VisiCalc(the first spreadsheet) as being the killer app that started the personal computer revolution.

        -Microsoft started with MS Dos on IBM PCs
        No, MS started with a basic compiler, before IBM PCs were even available. They found out that IBM was having trouble sourcing a third party OS for their new computer so they went to a company they knew that had an OS that would work, and they bought the rights to it.

        -Apple created windows and the mouse.
        Both existed before the Macintosh or the Lisa, though they were not widespread before the Mac (Lisa didn’t sell well).

        – Appletalk best n/w ever.
        The Appletalk protocol ran over a couple of different wiring types including Local Talk (built into all Macs) and Ethertalk. The protocol made networking easy for amateurs, but it was fairly chatty and didn’t play nicely with other protocols on the same router. Network engineers hate it.

        -Word Processing was started by Wordperfect
        Again wrong. There were wordprocessors from AES Data and Wang Labs in mid 70s before PCs. I have personally used both.

        – Spreadsheet by Lotus 1-2-3
        VisiCalc was selling like hot cakes before 1-2-3 was written.

        -Presentation s/w by Harvard business graphics
        Just Harvard Graphics actually. Well it may be the first I recall but it had competition.

        – Desktop Publishing by Pagemaker
        Aldus was the company who created Pagemaker, the first DTP system. Ventura Publisher was one year later.

        So if you want to harrangue people about getting the facts right, please look in the mirror.

        James

    • #3110242

      Microsoft might not have won – Apple lost

      by helpdesk ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      The automobile analogy is a very good one. Ford did not make the “best” car in many respects but it was affordable.

      Apple lost because Jobs wanted to keep the whole pie. His system was proprietary. That made his product too expensive. (It still is!)

      Bill Gates thankfully created a mass market for PC’s by saying, “Hey, if it is PC based I don’t care who makes the hardware” and proceded to drive the price of home computing down for the people who either did not have the money to buy an Apple or did not want to spend “that much money” to own a word processor. Don’t forget, PC’s did not really do that much when this struggle for dominance began.

      If it were not for the marketing genius and “do what ever it takes” drive of Bill Gates to bring to the common man a personal computer we would not be enjoying the fruits of the highest growth in productivity in the history of mankind.

      Remember, this opportunity was there for the other guys to take but they were hogs and wanted the whole pie, or they just did not have the vision, so they lost.

      The reason so many people complain about Microsoft is because they strive to be all things to all people and that is a tough row to hoe.

      It would be good to know how many of the whiners out there have any kind of certification in Microsoft products. I can do phenominal things in little time with Windows operating systems which give my clients stable, secure and valuable products for their investments. Perhaps some of the complainers should learn how to properly utilize the tools available to them with Windows.

      Hey, it may not be perfect, but it is really good.

      • #3134694

        best ever with out a doubt.

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Microsoft might not have won – Apple lost

        Thanks for your input.

        Ford doesn’t make the best car? what are you saying. 😛

        • #3133430

          Relatively NO and YES

          by alxnsc9 ·

          In reply to best ever with out a doubt.

          Dear friend,

          Ford doesn’t make the best car for some people and does make the best one for the rest.

          Did God create the best Earth’s Moon and did not the create best Pluto’s?

          Best regards,
          alx

    • #3110230

      Why people bash windows, and you like it

      by richard ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      By the way, did you hear that WOOOOSH!
      It was an intelligent thoutht, see if you can catch up to it. 🙂
      People bash windows because,

      10:it is bloated,
      9:it is slopy code
      8:Microsoft has preditory busninss practices
      7:everytime they are forced to upgrade their computer gets slower and harder to use.
      6:they are forced to upgrade when their may be nothing more they need.
      5:Windows does not play well with others
      4:Features are removed to later become add on products for add on price. (
      3:security was an afterthought, by design
      2:networking was an afterthought
      1:
      and the number one reason people like Windows is
      they don’t know anything else

      • #3110216

        You may be right, you may be wrong

        by helpdesk ·

        In reply to Why people bash windows, and you like it

        10:it is bloated
        9: it is slopy code

        It is bloated by nature because it is all things to all people. The world is waiting for someone, maybe you, to build a better mouse trap. When that lean and mean code writer steps up and provides the intuitive broad usability available to them through Windows for less money, we will all line up with our money in hand.

        8: Microsoft has preditory busninss practices
        Please name one giant corporation that has not had this charge laid against it by it’s competitors.

        7:everytime they are forced to upgrade their computer gets slower and harder to use.

        I know people who are still using ’95. No one makes people upgrade. Perhaps the people whose systems keep getting slower and harder to use should invest in some new hardware.
        Personally, my systems keep running faster and are much easier to use.

        6:they are forced to upgrade when their may be nothing more they need.

        Again, I am not sure I follow. If they don’t need to upgrade, why do they? Microsoft has never “forced” me to upgrade in the last 15 years.

        5:Windows does not play well with others
        Such is life for those who chose to play with the losers.

        4:Features are removed to later become add on products for add on price.

        You lost me again on this one. Can you give an example?

        3:security was an afterthought, by design

        Yeah, who knew there would be so many ______k’s out there who have nothing better to do than be _______’s (use favorite invective here) Maybe you should vent your frustration at them instead of a company which is just trying to deliver an affordable easy to use product to the common man.

        2:networking was an afterthought

        When’s the last time you set up 25 users on a network using Mac’s or Linux boxes?

        1: The number one reason people like Windows is
        they don’t know anything else

        Wrong again. back in the old days (around the turn of the century) I used to support a group of creative users for a dot com. They were advanced Mac users and were by far way more computer operating system literate than the average advanced Windows user. They had to be. Their apps, Dreamweaver, Photoshop etc. had to be tweaked for memory utilization, their Mac’s crashed every time they tried to open multiple apps and they were just all around miserable. I am sure OS X has improved the lives of users just as XP has, but all in all, Windows is still the winner.

        BTW… Could you point me to a Mac based small business server to study. What’s that? There isn’t one? Well, where is Steve Jobs when you need him.

        When is the last time you cracked open your Mac and upgraded the video card that you bought down at the local electronics store or added more RAM?

        As far as Linux goes… I can go out on the street and grab someone of average intelligence and have them administering Windows way before they can handel Linux.

        It’s not that we don’t know anything else… we just know better.

    • #3110163

      Sore losers?

      by breadtrk ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Bill came, Bill kicked ass, Bill dominates. Tough crap, welcome to America, come up with something better, convince the masses that it is better, knock Bill off his throne, until then keep whining and crying.

      • #3109619

        If it wan’t for….

        by jstuhlmiller ·

        In reply to Sore losers?

        lets face it guys if it were not for microsoft most of us IT pros would not be. We would be working in some menial factory job miserable and griping about that rather than Bill Gates who is a genius. So you may not like his platform and that is your right but give credit where credit is due that is all i ask.

    • #3109598

      Based on three decades of experience…

      by buckminster ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Over the last thirty years that I’ve been a software developer, network and system admin, I’ve proably used twenty OS’s and their derivitives in my professional role.

      In the 1970’s, I started out writing software on CDC and IBM mainframes and on “bare metal”. Later I began using a real-time OS called RSX-11M when I worked for NASA. I used VMS, Unix, Domain and other OS’s while I wrote CAD software.

      In the early 1980’s I lived and worked near Apple’s ‘skunk works’ and had to listen to the Mac developer’s go on and on about their little toy system. Apple was smart to switch over to NextStep (based on CMU’s Mach kernel).

      The last ten years I’ve been making a living off the internet I’ve used Unix, Linux and Windows.

      OK, based on that large sample of systems, the single most elegant operating system was the Apollo Domain (Aegis) operating system. Tandem Computers Guardian would be my second choice.

      The best operating system developer on the planet is probably Dave Cutler. He was responsible for RSX-11, VMS and VAXELN systems while at Digital Equipment Corporation. Goes to show you that even the best can do a half assed job — i.e. he lead the Windows NT effort at MS.

      buck

      • #3109342

        Ditto…

        by iceman52 ·

        In reply to Based on three decades of experience…

        So, where do you think Kernigan and Ritchie fall in here?

        • #3133412

          Ditto??

          by buckminster ·

          In reply to Ditto…

          Hey iceman, I’m not sure what “ditto” means in this instance but I guess you agree with me.

          > So, where do you think Kernigan and Ritchie
          > fall in here?

          K&R are academic type reseachers at Bell Labs. Those folks can live with 99.9% solutions. They writing research papers and stuff. Now those guys did put together two operating system (unix and plan9). But if you were gonna bet the farm on an OS, where you could not afford to have the system go tits up on ya. Would you pick their stuff or would go with Dave Cutler’s RSX or VMS?

          I used RSX when I wrote command and control software for the Pioneer project. I can’t imagine what it would have been like if I had to unix for something like that. I mean unix could not even do real-time apps until MassComp came along. Nuff said?

          Now I do think that pipes were a brillant idea even if they got from notion some other OS.

          I dunno, I guess those guys do qualify as “Real Programmers” (as in the letter to the editor in Datamation, volume 29 number 7, July 1983). I’m sure they eat Twinkies. And Szechwan food. And they do come from the same hacker culture as guys like Tom Van Vleck, Brian Reed, Smokey Wallace, Jim Clark, etc.

          best regards,

          buck

        • #3133260

          Yes, ditto.

          by iceman52 ·

          In reply to Ditto??

          Buck,

          “ditto” means I would say exactly the same as you said.

          Re: your comments on K&R; the Academy doesn’t have an errelavent mission, one that is of no practical consequence. It has at least 2 missions that are vital to the world: basic exploration of the fundamental principles under current world order assumptions for any particular discipline, and 2) applied exercise of the findings (proof of concept) from the former.

          While K&R are researchers, they are among the most effective explorers in our discipline – computer science. They participated in the Multics project which pre-saged UNIX. Before they conceived ‘pipes,’ they conceeived the first OS intended to run on ANY cpu, rather than just the cpu manufactured by the OS developer.

          This is a watershed market innovation. It is exactly the reverse of every other business incentive – to deliberately design half the platform (iron+OS) in a way that allows your customer to painlessly leave you for another vendor. K&R’s UNIX in 1984 was the second time a computer scientist liberated the technology from proprietary control by the vendors. Of course, the marketing guys at AT&T could’t find their way to a competitively earned dollar to save their lives. I know because I worked for them and later consulted to them.

          Plan9 is real interesting but I don’t yet understand it’s commercial relavence. As to Cutler’s work at DEC, I concur. But I can’t believe that NT – or any OS requiring a registry to organize itself – could possibly have been preferred by Cutler. For a scientist who developed one of the 2 best loved programmers’ OS’s ever, I gotta suspect he just decided to retire to the easy life on an MS stipend. After all, he seemed to have just disappeared within a year after joining MS – at least 2 years before NT finally shipped. For normal multi-user OSs, I prefer either UNIX or VMS in that order. For real time OSs, RSX is great, but I’d probably prefer some UNIX derived system like Qnix or RTlinux – only becaue I’m familiar with the SVID/SVVS. But then I haven’t been a programmer for 25 years. I’m just a very ‘senior’ sales engineer. By the way, what was MassComp? It seems to me that that was a machine manufacturer.

          I envy your experience on Pioneer. Of course, UNIX was unknown in those days and DEC certainly was the dominant science platform, so RSX was only natural. If you consider the Mars Rovers analigous, they are powered by Linux and seem to be satisfying today’s interstellar pioneers. Besides, the real work is in the programming. I don’t see anybody doing serious work in anything called [Visual] Basic. How about Modula, C, or Ada? Ask McDonnell Douglas. They build cruise missiles.

          Of course K&R are ‘real programmers.’ Just like the guys who created MS-Basic, CP/M, CP/m-86, DR-DOS, Windows 386, MacOS, Linux and OS X, they are all real programmers. Their association with market also-rans doesn’t make them any less real. For that matter, whether they are ‘real programmers’ is silly. They are essential contributors to the current world order in computer science, out from which springs all things Microsoft as well as Novell, Red Hat, IBM, Sun Micro, McDonnell Douglas and us.

          cheers,
          jat

      • #3134415

        Yes. But!

        by neckhardt ·

        In reply to Based on three decades of experience…

        Where are those operating systems now? While they may have been good, or even great, it lacked the mass appeal to keep the platform going.

        What makes an operating system great? My definition would be a secure, reliable operating system that does what you need it to do. Windows accomplishes 1 out of the 3.

        IBM’s mainframe operating system z/OS has almost 40 years of development behind it. When MVS was announced in the late 70s, IBM made the commitment that any security bugs that allowed an unauthorized program to get into supervisor state, or affect the running of another job in the system was guaranteed to be fixed.

        We don’t hear much about security breaches on mainframes, and the longevity of the OS has to count for something.

        Neal

        • #3096965

          HP still supports them I believe..

          by buckminster ·

          In reply to Yes. But!

          > Where are those operating systems now? While
          > they may have been good, or even great, it
          > lacked the mass appeal to keep the platform
          > going.

          HP by way of the Compac merger ended up owning the legacy of DEC and Tandem, VMS and Guardian.
          HP bought Apollo in 1989 as I recall and I think they still support Domain.

          Whenever mass appeal becomes the “goodness criteria” we get substandard goods – boy bands, Brittney Spears, Eminem – all are perfect examples…

    • #3108426

      Well, too many not true’s

      by alxnsc9 ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      Dear Friend,

      There is no evil you are MS fan, but some of your statements need a touch…So:
      – The best OS is rarely popular…
      – PC’s (personal computers) are in use starting from 1976 – thanks to Apple Computer.
      – Mac is not an OS…but a family of (may be the best) popular PC’s (may be still to be worsen by Intel mP’s)…
      – Functionality is never standard nor substandard…
      – The WEB has too little to do with MS…MS has…
      – There are very many applications made not “for Windows”…but for industry, astronomy, defense, aeronautics, chip built-in,etc. and Windows is not “out there” but out of there…
      BTW, have you any facts showing you are right?
      Sincerely,
      alx

      • #3108964

        not not trues, but maybe not applies.

        by nz_justice ·

        In reply to Well, too many not true’s

        If I made my own OS it would not be popular but I would think it was the greatest OS in the world. And then I’ll have an even harder time telling people so. But If I made an OS and every one started using and then every one kept using, even when there are enough good competitive alternative’s, then I would think that my OS was one of the best, if not he best, especially if it is been paid for.

        I agree the best OS is rarely popular. Whats more popular than a free OS? One you pay for? I’d say that free OS is pretty popular.

        commodore 64 was the first PC I had experience with a home PC. I don’t think apple came up with the commodore 64.

        MAC OSX is an OS used by MAC, and it’s not being able to maximise windows or have a task-bar, that is missing witch would make MAC really great. I think they should steel it of Windows.

        IF Functionality wasn’t standard you could not write applications that worked on OS’s, you could not write web pages to be displayed over the web. One such standard is “http”, you use it every time your on the web.

        Internet Explorer has always been ahead of the competition’s alternative browsers, FireFox comes close to competing(if only the could iron out all the bugs and holes). IE 7 is being released soon, and the competition will have to find a new way to catch up. and have you heard of windows update, major internet based functionality.

        There are many applications made full stop, and you can’t stop anyone making an alternative application that will run in windows. You can get all these types of application for windows industry, astronomy, defense, aeronautics, chip built-in, etc… but not been made by microsoft. GIMP built for Linux works on windows etc…

        You want facts on why Windows is the OS for you

        http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/evaluation/default.mspx

        There are also other interesting facts on that site.

        Now who is the ruling body\authority on the Internet that decides what is marketing propaganda and what is fact.

        • #3133436

          Not true’s again – incoherency

          by alxnsc9 ·

          In reply to not not trues, but maybe not applies.

          Dear friend,

          Thank you very much indeed for your kind letter.
          I have never intended to point out the best OS ever as to my opinion there is no and there can never be a best OS.
          The real reason to react to this author’s “writing” is that most statements submitted are incoherent.
          Pointing out that The Web is due to Windows, that people use PC’s to use Windows, comparing a PC to an OS, etc – is not just not true, it is an example of incoherent thinking.
          If it is not clear enough, here is a resembling statement – “pencils are best as cows are heavy”.
          Pencils can be best and, cows can be heavy but the statement lacks coherency.
          Now let us think over the term “best” – pencils can not be “best” as well, they are not the best tools to sharpen pencils; cows can be heavier compared to pencils just as noone has had the need to produce a pencil heavier than a cow… So pencils are better to carry, but are they “best”?
          An ancient scientist diagnosed his oponents’ incoherency that way – Non Compos Mentis!
          Let us not follow them.

          Best regards,
          alx

    • #3109279

      AMEN Brother

      by mfb ·

      In reply to The best OS ever without a doubt

      I’ve had customers approach me about switching over to Linux because of ‘what they’ve heard’ about it. I tell them that if Linux was the only OS they had ever used and XP came out at $600 a copy they would break their arms getting their wallets out.

      • #3109097

        Intriquing

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to AMEN Brother

        And what do you back that assumption on ?

        • #3109082

          Assumption?

          by mfb ·

          In reply to Intriquing

          Having worked with both systems for many many years, (I was writing assembler when the dinosaurs roamed the earth) I know what works and what is easy to maintain. I try to advise on the most cost effective solution to a problem. Linux in whatever flavor you choose has documentation that is slightly worse than abysmal, drivers and networking are a headache, and development tools are poor. This means changes, updates and development time are costly. I’ll let the geeks decide what is the ‘better’ OS and let the market place decide what is the most cost effective. Given the fact that Linux is almost free and Win XP is a few hunded a pop I rest my case.

        • #3108963

          Maybe for the desktop

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Assumption?

          But a very poor and costly alternative for Mid – High End Servers.

          MS Windows on a 500 CPU Blade is horrendously expensive for the licenses that are required and not overly stable, Novel’s SUSE on the other hand is Rock Solid cheap at only a few hundred $ and scalable which is something that Windows whatever currently [b]Is Not.[/b]

          Even on a low end Residential Gateway which I have put into one small business running Debian it’s the only computer that can run 24/7 without a single problem and because the owners do not have direct access to it but constantly are asking me why the Gateway is so reliable when their XP Pro Workstations require so much work.

          Col ]:)

        • #3108936

          win2k3 doesn’t work for you?

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Maybe for the desktop

          So what do you think you are doing wrong with your set up of high end server with Windows Server 2003? Tell me what the problems you have with Win Server 2k3 and maybe I can help you out. I can’t make it cheaper, but I might be able to offer you advise on how to make it scalable and reliable. Are you using enterprise or standard edition? Are you unsure of how to lock down a win2k3 server so owners don’t have direct access to it? etc…

          Let me know and I’ll see if I can help you out.

          😀

        • #3108830

          Quite smart I admit

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to win2k3 doesn’t work for you?

          Now we’re back to the excuse we always hear: it’s the users/admins fault that windows – any flavour

          a. notoriously and historically is proven buggy.
          b has uptimes not in any way near any competitor
          c has a TCO that is way above any competitor.
          c. is hit by security disasters every few days
          c. has the supplier (MS) always spending weeks on fixing even dangerous errors.
          d. often is fixed in a way that introduces a few new errors.
          e. has a proven history of avoiding any public standards.
          f. hides specifications due to what can only be MS own commercial interests.
          g. is shipped with thousands (W2K more than 60.000) known bugs.
          h.
          continue the list.

          As an amateur desktop OS, Windows is not that bad. Most people install from a preload with all relevant drivers and settings already made, and it takes an hour or so. It you install connected to the net, you will be hit by myriads of worms, spyware, badware before install finishes.
          Linux and Mac OS installs in about the same time but from a CD. When Microsoft _allows_ OEM’s to sell PC’s with non-MS OS installed, install time would drop on Linux to faster than Windows. Anyway on any decent OS installation is a one-time affair, and time used on this is ir