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  • #2269854

    The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

    Locked

    by techexec2 ·

    .
    As I posted here (1), last week I decided that I would NEVER upgrade to Vista as my primary operating system. I find it completely unacceptable to be subject to capricious deactivation with 3 days warning whenever Vista decides it does not like software or hardware I might install (yes, even SOFTWARE can trigger this nonsense…see (2)(3)(4)(5) ).

    My personal workstations matter to me. But, what about the coming Vista Server? Will it have self-deactivation code that is never supposed to deactivate too? What about MALWARE causing deactivation? What about Airline reservation systems? Police 911 information systems? Hospital information systems? You get the idea. Self-deactivation code inside the operating system is completely unacceptable.

    Microsoft has lost its way and has gone too far now. The uncertainty is unacceptable and I’ve decided that NOW is the right time to make a move. I have 100% confidence that there will be more moves by Microsoft that displease me. I will not be investing any further in the Microsoft Windows platform. I will invest in Linux and Macintosh now.

    I’ve got a “Leaving Windows” project going, and I thought someone else might find this information helpful. If you are doing something similar, or think as I do (or not), or if you find this post helpful to you, I would love to read your posts here.

    [b]Refusing Vista means leaving Windows!![/b] :0

    Windows and I have been friends for a long time. Windows has been my primary operating system since 1992. Quite sadly, Windows has gone from being very helpful and pleasing (Windows 3.1, big help to PC users) to deceptively attractive, “demonically” possessed, and vengeful (Vista), just like the company that sells it (Microsoft) X-( .

    It is not MY computer anymore when Microsoft’s software can and will take it over capriciously. I am going to reassert dominion over MY personal computer.

    Refusing Vista means I have up to only about 2 more years to stay on Windows XP in order to avoid 3rd party hardware & software compatibility issues, and losing those [u]wonderful[/u] security updates. So, I am beginning my “Leaving Windows” project immediately.

    [b]The “Leaving Windows” Project[/b]

    In my “Leaving Windows” project, I will be converting my personal workstations from Windows XP to Linux (desktop) and Macintosh (notebook). The project has three phases and will progress steadily but without any painful big moves.

    [u]STARTING CONFIGURATION[/u]

    Desktop 1…… : x86 PC running Windows XP (primary computer)
    Desktop 2…… : x86 PC running Linux
    Desktop 3…… : eMac running MacOS X (just for the transition)
    Notebook……. : ThinkPad running Windows XP
    Network…….. : All systems on 100 Mbps Ethernet LAN

    [u]ENDING CONFIGURATION[/u]

    Desktop 1…… : x86 PC running Windows XP
    Desktop 2…… : x86 PC running Linux (primary computer)
    Desktop 3…… : (retired!!)
    Notebook……. : x86 MacBook running MacOS X (plus Windows XP in a VM)
    Network…….. : All systems on 100 Mbps Ethernet LAN

    [u]PHASE 1: SWITCH TO PORTABLE APPLICATIONS[/u]

    Take inventory of all applications used. Then, switch to portable applications that run on Windows, Mac, and Linux. This enables a more gradual transition by controlling the rate of change. Today’s portable applications are [u]excellent[/u] and many are open source and free! I will not lose anything important by doing this. Some examples:

    – Browser………… : [b]Firefox[/b] (instead of Internet Explorer).
    – POP E-mail……… : [b]Thunderbird[/b] (instead of Outlook/Express).
    – Webmail………… : [b]Yahoo Mail[/b] (HotMail is Outlook Express-only).
    – Word Processing…. : [b]OpenOffice[/b] (instead of MS Office).
    – Spreadsheet…….. : [b]OpenOffice[/b] (instead of MS Office).
    – Presentation……. : [b]OpenOffice[/b] (instead of MS Office).
    – Music………….. : [b]iTunes[/b] (instead of Media Player; Win, Mac).
    – Video………….. : [b]QuickTime[/b] (instead of Media Player; Win, Mac).
    – Photo/Graphics 1… : [b]Adobe Photoshop Elements[/b] (Win, Mac).
    – Photo/Graphics 2… : [b]The GIMP[/b] (instead of PhotoShop).
    – PDA……………. : [b]Palm Desktop[/b] (Win, Mac).
    – Accounting……… : [b]Quicken[/b] (Win, Mac).
    – VM…………….. : [b]VMWare[/b] (instead of MS Virtual PC).

    During Phase 1, I will run and work with the portable applications on all three systems (Win, Mac, Lin) as I go and will make the transition gradually and smoothly, and without any grief. When the time is right, the cut over will occur (Phase 2).

    I’ve been heading in the direction of portable apps for some months now, but never intended to leave Windows as I do now. I switched to OpenOffice full-time last week. It is reading all of my MS Word and MS Excel files just fine so far! 🙂 Nice program!

    Note 1: NOW is the time to buy any Windows XP licenses that you need for a project like this. Windows XP will be very hard to find 2 years from now (7). Any expense here will be MORE than offset by savings from not upgrading to Vista and Vista-compatible applications, and using free open source apps.

    Note 2: I chose to use multiple x86 desktop computers for efficiency and getting the best experience on Linux. This could also be done using one PC via rebooting or in VMs.

    [u]PHASE 2: SWITCH TO LINUX (DESKTOP) AND MACINTOSH (NOTEBOOK)[/u]

    In addition to the portable and native applications on the new platforms, I will run Windows XP in a VM on the MacBook. There will be a very few applications I will want to run on Windows XP for a while, or indefinitely. This is about reasserting control, not hating Microsoft or Windows.

    Even though Linux runs on notebooks, especially ThinkPads, I have chosen a MacBook instead. Choosing Macintosh means I know the notebook will “just work”. Further, it provides me with a commercial platform to run commercial applications on as that need arises. There is wide third party commercial hardware and software support for Macintosh (e.g. digital cameras, etc.). Furthermore, I use iTunes for music and QuickTime for video. So, there MUST be a Macintosh or Windows computer in the mix. Since Windows is out, and I want an x86 PC as the desktop, the Macintosh must be the notebook. Of course, this is no sacrifice at all! 🙂

    [u]PHASE 3: NO WINDOWS AT ALL[/u]

    When the time comes, stop regularly running Windows XP in a VM. Keep it around for contingencies.

    [b]The Bottom Line[/b]

    I am now completely convinced that not only is leaving Windows possible for me, but that it really is not a problem at all. Paul Simon was right: There must be fifty ways to leave your lover. Just step out the back, Jack. And, set yourself free.

    I may be leaving Windows, but not everybody is. The “safety valve” that is going to make this work really well is being able to run Windows XP (or even Vista ]:) ) in a VM if that ever becomes necessary for one program or function. No matter what happens, I will be able to switch full-time to Linux and Macintosh, and STILL be able to deal very well with a world where many other people run Windows.

    Should Vista ever capriciously self-deactivate on someone else, I promise, I will try really hard to smile only on the inside. And, I will let them borrow my computer to check their e-mail (assuming, of course, that their mail server has not also capriciously self-deactivated!!) :^0 :^0 :^0

    All the best to all of you…

    P.S. I found this article very inspirational: (6).

    ————————————–

    (1) Now it’s final. I will NEVER upgrade to Vista.
    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977

    (2) Vista WGA problems confirmed
    http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=221

    (3) Sequence to Vista pulling the pin on the grenade
    http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12354_22-56084.html

    (4) What does Windows Vista reduced functionality mode look like?
    http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=286

    (5) Vista reduced functionality mode – Gallery
    http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-56027-3.html

    (6) Rockin’ on without Microsoft
    http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

    (7) Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?
    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213341&messageID=2184529

All Comments

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    Replies
    • #2535719

      Fine for Home Use, Fine…

      by now left tr ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      but can you really see the Large Corps training all their users and every new user despite their so called ‘computer experience’ on a non MS-OS to boot?

      Whwn most people think of ‘computer experience’ they think about using their home PC…AKA Windows. A Sad (for the end game) but true fact.

      • #2535703

        In a word: YES

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Fine for Home Use, Fine…

        .
        Of course, I don’t think all companies are going to switch from Windows to Linux. My post is not about convincing anyone of anything. It is just about providing some information. That is all.

        With the Vista upgrade in front of all of us, it is an excellent time to make such move.

        Training? I don’t see this as an issue anymore. Running Linux with the KDE desktop is very easy for Windows users to switch to.

        Switch in two steps:

        (1) Switch to portable applications: Firefox browser, OpenOffice, etc. on Windows.

        (2) Whenever you’re ready, switch from Windows to Linux with the KDE desktop.

        On the other hand, if you prefer to upgrade to Vista and stick with Microsoft applications, by all means do it.

        I have decided to leave Windows and [u]permanently[/u] take advantage of Linux and portable applications now, just like this company did (1). It is going to pay dividends every single year.

        Take care.

        P.S. And you thought I wasn’t serious about this… :^0

        ——————————

        (1) Rockin’ on without Microsoft
        http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

        • #2515485

          source for similar articles

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to In a word: YES

          I get a daily dose of information from newsforge.com (agregating linux.com, it managers journal and a few others). You may find it worth checking in on with your daily news.

          There are a number of “switching to Linux” articles including one on the gitar string company. I particularily like the part where they had a huge jump in productivity because workstations with no need to browse the internet didn’t have an internet browser installed.

        • #2517763

          Thanks for this

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to source for similar articles

          Thanks for this. I’ll check it out.

        • #2517704

          Another company finding a better solution outside of software taxes

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Thanks for this

      • #2515608

        Fine for business too.

        by ajb2 ·

        In reply to Fine for Home Use, Fine…

        We are a world leading space research organisation.

        We use desktop linux extensively along with windows desktops. While there have been a few users (less than 1%) who don’t like Linux and insist on running Windows, there is a steady migration of research groups from Windows to Linux – because Linux “Just Works” if done properly.

        “No Viruses”
        “Less downtime”
        “greater mobility”
        “higher speeds”

        There is still some software which is windows-only – we have one win2k server for this and linux users use rdesktop to get access to it. It gets used about 2-3 times/month.

        Supporting windows users (10% of the desktops) accounts for 90% of our time…

        • #2515473

          That sounds familiar.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Fine for business too.

          That’s almost exactly the situation at a company where I once worked — a company full of rocket scientists doing orbital tracking systems development. 15% of the network was Windows, and I spent 65% of my time supporting Windows. The other 85% of the network was Linux with a couple of Sun boxes. With another 25% of my time spent on nonsense like meetings, dealing with vendors, and so on, that left about 10% of my time supporting non-Windows systems.

    • #2537220

      nice idea

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      We should make a stand-alone website out of this. Wanna work together on it?

      • #2537206

        Let me know what its address is (nt)

        by roaming ·

        In reply to nice idea

        (nt)

      • #2537187

        YES!!!!!

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to nice idea

        Let me know when and where, I’ll be there!

        While I work in Data Security now, I still write a bit and even not in code. I really believe that a web site like this would be the right thing to do- and will happily contribute whatever I can to it.

        My fiance wrote a triple pass encryption tool some time back that I am trying to re-work for Open Source- with his blessing. We both COBOL but I also Fortran and Basic while he went VB and C. I Assembly and he is currently Java. We are both trying to stay away from OS specific tools as many of his programmes broke in Vista test. I am in security now so am trying to re-write with a result that I would pass for a corporate system.

        Bottom line? Want to add personal encryption to the “list” that TechExec has already developed. We have it now for Windows- but must be WinXP Home or less.

        How can I help?

        • #2537116

          Good!

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to YES!!!!!

          I’d love to have your involvement in such a thing.

          The first thing we’d need to sort out is how to organize such a website. What’s the first thing we need on it (in terms of content)? If we can figure that out, I’ll put something up. We can add to it from there.

        • #2514701

          Peer me

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Good!

          I can think of a few folks that might also want to contribute some input. They simply may not have seen this thread or wanted to avoid the discussion altogether.

          The testing I am doing right now is rather broad- I want to go in the BSD direction personally but also have a mom in law who uses her computer as a tool. I have her using FF and some other tools now but will need to move her to a Windows-like environment when XP support dies. For her, PCLinux will be a better choice.

          With the fiance, a BSD will work but won’t be what he wants. However he is getting accustomed to the flexibility he has in the OOo and is exploring Live Linux. I don’t know what he will settle on but he is at least open to possibilities. His son is already using Unix (Mac OS X in terminal window)and is equally open. I have him playing with Gimp (kid is a graphic designer).

          At the end of the day, what we all are seeing is that we need to take back control of our computing lives. Till now, it has been quite easy to resign ourselves to MS. I think that we no longer have that option. Or if we do, it should be more definitively a choice as opposed to something we feel forced to.

          The issues with Linux are really mostly based in the sense that it is something too obscure to be viable. While we know that is an incorrect view, many people get frightened or put off because they can’t find the information they need to be successful. There are bright people out there who have developed a blind spot towards their OS because we have had so many years of little choice.

          In terms of content, I think that we need to define the test plats and the apps that we are initially testing in phase one, two, and three. We need to level set commitment to the test cycles and define success criteria. And we need to teach me to not drop into Project Manager mode. (Oddly enough, I never use the phrase “success criteria” in normal conversation!)

          I will do whatever I can to contribute. As I said, there are others we might want to draw in as well. But I think that it is a worthwhile endeavour.

      • #2537177

        Can the riffraff join in to help?

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to nice idea

        If you all don’t mind working with the “biggest idiot” at TR I do have some free time available for a worthy cause.

        • #2537117

          don’t see why not

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Can the riffraff join in to help?

          I don’t see why you couldn’t help — as long as you have something helpful to offer.

        • #2515332

          What can I offer?

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to don’t see why not

          First of all, I’ll pay for domain name registration and bandwidth if I could maintain and edit/co-edit the site at a host like squarespace or freewebs.

          Checkout http://tlwp.squarespace.com/

          It’s not very creative as I only spent a few minutes working on it but I do have enough familiarity with squarespace’s modular software to develop almost any type of site.

          As far as alternative operating system expertise goes I’m definitely not an expert. I know people who are so that shouldn’t be a problem.

          I took a different approach than Tech Exec. I run openSUSE 10.1 as a dual-boot option on another HD in my main pc. I’m sold on the idea that an MS OS isn’t absolutely necessary for both home and business users.

          I have a ton of Links bookmarked leading to open source alternatives and use several of them but I haven’t quite found THE site for weaning people off of MS products. I’d be happy to help create and maintain one if others could help by contributing meaningful content and ideas.

          My TR “Contact” email address doesn’t exist anymore but TR members can feel free to contact me at the email address on my profile page.

        • #2515094

          interesting . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to What can I offer?

          I’ve already got some webhosting space where I could stick it. If I’m providing the webhosting, I won’t provide direct login access to people I don’t know (which means you, sorry), but if you want to register a domain name and point it at the name servers for my webhost I’ll see about squeezing it in.

          I’m not entirely sure we need a domain name — I could just subdomain it off one of the domains I already have. In fact, it might make sense to subdomain it off of apotheon.net, which is intended to be sort of a collection of community-based resources anyway.

          I’d accept development help and/or content editing help from anyone here that expresses an interest, I’m sure. It’d have to be within the context of whatever we end up using for content management and source code control, of course, rather than webhosting account level access to the live system.

          Of course, it looks like you’ve already got something set up. If people decide that’s the way they want to take this, that’s fine — I’m sure I can chip in. I’d prefer something a little more homegrown, or at least more freely modifiable at a more granular level, than a web builder like SquareSpace uses. If others like it, though, I won’t complain too much.

        • #2514983

          I know how to lead, follow or just get out of the way.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to interesting . . .

          Using SquareSpace was just a thought and something quick and easy for me to use. I pulled what little I did have going as it doesn’t look to be where people want to take the idea and that’s fine.

          I still think it is a great idea for a site and hope some of the others here make it happen.

        • #2514973

          Well . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I know how to lead, follow or just get out of the way.

          . . . apparently, I’m in the position now of “fight” or “get out of the way”, so I’ll choose the latter.

        • #2517481

          I’d love a site like this

          by funker ·

          In reply to Can the riffraff join in to help?

          Seeing as the ‘biggest idiot at TR’ designation has been taken, I’ll just state that this is a great idea. With the expertise at this site, I am not sure I can contribute anything substantial but I would definately help where I could.

      • #2537008

        Hey, that is a good idea!

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to nice idea

        .
        I think a website that focuses on helping people to leave Windows is a good idea. I like it! Unfortunately, I really wouldn’t have the time to do something like that.

        There’s so much that could be done with a site like that. Here are some random thoughts. Take them as you will.

        – I think the important new contribution is to facilitate the “leaving”. All the information is already out there. It is so daunting for them. There is a unique contribution that this site could make toward helping people leave Windows by simplifying it and speaking in the “language” Windows users already know.

        – Of course, current Windows people who want to know more can also be helped with deeper guidance.

        – Don’t let it become an “insider’s site”. The target audience is the hundreds of millions of new people who might want to leave Windows. Once they leave Windows, they “graduate”. There could be a deeper level for those who have “graduated”. Once these people are running something other than Windows, then they can explore the vast options much more deeply.

        – From the perspective of Windows users, not Linux, etc. No “religion”. No Microsoft bashing. No “M$”. No “Windoze”. No disrespect. But, OK to discuss the issues honestly.

        – Map things familiar to Windows users to their Linux counterparts. Windows Notepad => KDE Kedit. MS Office => OpenOffice. Etc.

        – List of distributions and where to get them. Pros and cons. Or…

        – Windows users are used to ONE choice. Microsoft provides them with “freedom from choice”. The choices available in Linux, BSD, etc. are complete overload for them. Even within a distro, how many packages are there? Too daunting. Maybe choose 3 distros to highlight?

        – Success stories like the “Rockin’ on Without Microsoft” article.

        – Corporate network issues.

        – Focus on smoothing over the roadblocks that people running Windows have in their effort to leave Windows.

        – Specialized articles, written by the community, that covers various topics of interest to those leaving Windows. Home users, power users, corporate users, corporate IT support users, Corporate IT management, etc.

        – Advertising… Get lots of advertising from companies selling Linux stuff. Distros. IBM. RedHat. Novell. Dell. HP. Make the site pay for itself.

        • #2515305

          As for distros choices

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Hey, that is a good idea!

          there is a site already that Jaqui posted in another thread, which helps in the selection process. I did not totally agree with the results for me, but it did list a few (highlighted) and a few ‘others’ to try. I think the site was at
          http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/index.php

          A basic description is given as well, but maybe we could make a few other comments on it as well. Such as personal preferences — and why! So far I like SUSE 10 and PCLinuxOS, but I thought I would like Kubuntu, until I was warned against it.

          all installed easily (SUSE took a long time though).

        • #2517203

          ‘Warned’ of Kubuntu??

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to As for distros choices

          The security of Kubuntu is as good as the security of any other distro – if used correctly. In fact – it is more difficult to ‘mess up’ because the root is locked down by default. I think your warning came from an expert who didn’t like to see anything unfamiliar – and never looked further!

          Try a live CD – or ask – it is based on Debian, owner of pretty good reputation…

        • #2517194

          not quite

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to ‘Warned’ of Kubuntu??

          The Ubuntu family of distributions has a security model designed to protect the computer from the user. The security model used by most other Linux distributions is designed to protect the computer from people who aren’t supposed to be using the computer.

          Figure out the trade-off for yourself.

        • #2517187

          A couple of security problems

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to ‘Warned’ of Kubuntu??

          the sudo list contains all the created users and uses the users passwords by default.

        • #2515727

          Not quite so

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to A couple of security problems

          Only the original (installing) user has sudo rights, unless that user specifically gives that right to others. Essentially the system operates with a locked-down root account, and sudo is su with an automatic time limit.

          A simple and secure system is to run as another user (rather than the one with sudo rights) and only login to the installing user name when maintenance tasks need to be done (as many do with su). This leaves an ‘invader’ with no root account to go after, and needing to guess which account has sudo rights (if he even knows of such things) and certainly no more vulnerable than any other system out there..

          If I’m wrong here – please explain it to me – ‘cos I can’t see how that is more dangerous than having a known (root) account to chase after – needing only 1 password to have complete access to the system..

          BTW – it is all Linux, and therefore configurable. If you WANT to run with a root user account – you can set it up that way 🙂 – so it isn’t a reason to give the distro a miss (though there certainly may be others!)

          All in all, I think the sudo system makes reasonable sense – you could think of it as an UAC version that works. You run most tasks without it (INCLUDING installing software!) – but it’s easy to use when you need it – and it doesn’t hang around forgotten in the background because you forgot to close your root shell!

        • #2515472

          one password

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          With full access sudo, you only need one password to own the system.

          Without full access sudo, you can ensure that remote login as root is disabled, thus forcing anyone cracking the system to bypass two passwords to own the system — the primary user password, and the root password when using su to gain root access.

          That means sudo loses. So sorry.

          edit: In fact, all Ubuntu has done is [i]effectively[/i] change the name of the root account, and encourage people to use the new administrative account as the primary user account. What’s the point? You can change the name of the root account directly, if that’s what you want to do. The sudo “solution” employed by Ubuntu default installs doesn’t do anything useful.

        • #2517547

          Interesting apotheon!

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          I did not think that the root account could be disabled without losing root access when needed.
          hmmm. Maybe I should start looking up securing Linux articles.

        • #2532881

          I think the points were missed

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          OK – it is possible to lock down further without sudo than with it. However, I still maintain it is not inherently ‘insecure’. The point I was trying to make however were that
          1. The default (with sudo) configuration is more secure and more workable than Vista to begin with
          2. If you wish to implement ‘max security’, it is easily done by anyone wishing to do so – especially someone knowledgable enough to WANT to do so. Delete sudo, activate root, lock it down, use su for admin tasks as usual… Not a reason to skip a distro, over some minor config issue. As I mentioned before there can be innumerable OTHER reasons (not as configurable as Gentoo for instance) for skipping the Ubuntu family – but sudo or no sudo should not be one of them.

          The decision to go the sudo route was to encourage ex-Win people to use SOME security, as opposed to running AS ‘root’ – with all its attendant hazards. At this, it succeeds.

        • #2532865

          I didn’t say it was “inherently insecure”.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          I didn’t say it was inherently “unsecure”, either.

          What I did say is that it’s not as secure against external threats as the administrative authorization model employed by default on other Linux distributions. Please don’t confuse relative security with absolute security.

          “[i]1. The default (with sudo) configuration is more secure and more workable than Vista to begin with[/i]”
          I definitely won’t argue with that, at this time.

          “[i]2. If you wish to implement ‘max security’, it is easily done by anyone wishing to do so – especially someone knowledgable enough to WANT to do so. Delete sudo, activate root, lock it down, use su for admin tasks as usual… Not a reason to skip a distro, over some minor config issue. As I mentioned before there can be innumerable OTHER reasons (not as configurable as Gentoo for instance) for skipping the Ubuntu family – but sudo or no sudo should not be one of them.[/i]”
          If all else was equal, I’d choose Debian over Ubuntu for reasons of its default administrative authorization configuration. If there’s a slight difference in security, easily rectified but still worse for choice A than choice B by default, that will make me more likely to go with choice B. After all, there’s no need to saddle myself with the extra work, even if it’s less than five minutes’ worth of work.

          “[i]The decision to go the sudo route was to encourage ex-Win people to use SOME security, as opposed to running AS ‘root’ – with all its attendant hazards. At this, it succeeds.[/i]”
          This is why I’m willing to recommend Ubuntu as an enticement and introduction to migrating from MS Windows to a unixlike OS.

        • #2532833

          True Enough

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          Actually, Apotheon, I didn’t think you were the ‘target’ of my original comment 🙂 What I was trying to do was point out that a (very knowledgeable) user had dismissed the entire Ubuntu family as unusable and not worth a look for severe ‘security flaws’.

          I attempted to show that security is a relative thing, and more affected by the quality of the password(s) chosen and user actions than by its default configuration.
          I have managed over the years to run on Windows ME and XP without major problems (beyond running spyware cleanups, a hardware router to hide behind, and an AV suite. These systems, of course were WITHOUT any built in security of admin account, because it is too much work to enable it on a home system.

          I just didn’t want the ‘warned off’ to spread any further without a comment, because not everyone is as ‘lean, mean, and hard-line oriented as Jaqui!

          Now – what relative security scores should we give to the different methods discussed here? Are they levels up to 5? ie:

          Win up to ME 0
          Win XP 1 (if set up)
          Win Vista 2 ( if UAC run ‘properly’)
          Ubuntu 3 ( by default – no file can be executed without admin action)
          Most distros 3.5 (assuming a good root password)
          Locked down 4 (pretty tough to crack)
          Custom 5 (requires biometrics to activate the keyboard!)

          Just an idea of relative levels. Pretty hard to secure a machine at the console though.

          Thanks again, Apotheon, for a reasoned response – not some thing that can be counted on here it seems!

        • #2532781

          re: true enough

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          “[i]Actually, Apotheon, I didn’t think you were the ‘target’ of my original comment[/i]”
          I’ve made comments in the past, in other discussions, to the effect that Ubuntu’s security model troubles me. There’s more wrong, security-wise, than simply the way administrative authorization is handled in Ubuntu — such as the way some package dependencies are defined and the fact that, last I checked, iptables isn’t even configured in Ubuntu by default.

          I’ve seen others make louder, harsher complaints about Ubuntu’s security model than I have — such as Jaqui — but it’s always possible that my statements in the past were at least part of what prompted the remarks that started this subthread about Ubuntu security.

          “[i]I attempted to show that security is a relative thing, and more affected by the quality of the password(s) chosen and user actions than by its default configuration.[/i]”
          That’s often, but not always, true. I understand your point, in any case.

          I’m not entirely sure Ubuntu rates a whole point above Vista. Time will tell. Vista hasn’t been put through its paces yet, security-wise. I suppose your 1-5 security level rating system is probably close enough to accurate, though. I’d probably give FreeBSD about half a step better than most Linux distributions for default configuration, and OpenBSD a 5 by default.

          “[i]Thanks again, Apotheon, for a reasoned response – not some thing that can be counted on here it seems![/i]”
          It takes all kinds. You’re welcome — I do try to contribute positively to these discussions.

        • #2532722

          re: iptables

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          I haven’t verified this myself, as yet, but my understanding of Ubuntu’s default is that iptables is ‘locked down’. If you want to open anything up, then install Firestarter (or other interface) to configure it. Presumably this does NOT apply to the server version 🙂

          edit:
          Forgot to mention that I haven’t (yet) tried all the distros out there, and I am sure that my 5 levels are very open to ‘discussion’!

          I bow to your greater expertise on that subject. Actually I had a few years of just drifting, basically uninterested in the way things worked – because of being ‘forced’ to work in Windows. The difference between building a window in AmigaDOS (Intuition) and the clunky, top-heavy hoop-jumping required on Windows was just too much for me (not to mention the byte-order and segmentation issues of going to Intel!) Thank heavens that Linux has progressed to true usability without committing to a 100hr week to set it up right anymore.

        • #2534289

          I could be mistaken.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          I may have misremembered, or Ubuntu may have changed its policy on default iptables configuration. I’m not really sure. I haven’t looked at it seriously for a couple of years now.

        • #2534251

          Speed of change

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          That is the amazing thing about the *buntus – the speed with which things change. They are on a 6-month release schedule, so a ‘couple of years’ is a long time.

          The biggest surprise for me was how well its GUI install auto-detected everything I had (although auto-configure is another story) and that the partitioning program could handle copy, move and resizing of partitions so well. It even managed to copy an XP partition from one drive to another and left it bootable which Partition Magic failed to do. I never expected the FIRST try to set it up to be successful (went against everything I ‘knew’ about Linux from years ago).

          Well – enough about Ubuntu I guess – back to how to get that XP partition out of my life 🙂

        • #2538093

          I just installed

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Not quite so

          OpenSuse 10.2. It has sudo installed and enabled by default as well as a root account that allows login. As best as I can tell, all Ubutu has done is a variation on the Debian root-lock. Instead of blocking GUI login for root, they made root a sudo-access-only account (which can be changed with a few config mods). The firewall in Ubuntu/Ebutu/Kbuntu is the same kernel based chains as in fedora/suse/madriva. Really the only change Ubuntu has made to the standard linux security model is that root priv is only accessable (by default) through sudo. I fail to see how this is an unsecure or less secure system then the other distros. If I am missing something, please point it out to me.

        • #2578756

          should be warned against NOT using it

          by craiglarry9 ·

          In reply to ‘Warned’ of Kubuntu??

          Been using kubuntu upgrade for several months now. I think it’s great! However, I’m having a serious problem with amd athlon 64 bit machine. Had dual boot kubuntu and winxp pro, the everthing went bad. Couldn’t do any os for long without major stops and blue screens. Even had to get lenovo Beijing involved and it still took 8 weeks to sort it out. Then finally after three reinstalls and all new boards, new drivers, etc, cpu and RAM it was running winxp without a hiccup for three days and decided to put feisty kubuntu back on…and here we go again! For some reason this computer will not accept a) two systems and/or ubuntu. I’m really ticked because I have same OS config on Intel p4 dual core and it works like a dream, just really beautiful.

        • #2578715

          I think it is clear that you’re having hardware problems…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to should be warned against NOT using it

          .
          I think it is clear that you’re having hardware problems, not software ones. That is, there is something wrong with the hardware in that AMD-based system and if you test it some more, you’ll find out the OS(es) has(have) nothing to do with it.

          Good luck!

        • #2590518

          what you’re saying seems obvious to me

          by craiglarry9 ·

          In reply to I think it is clear that you’re having hardware problems…

          What I did say was that the computer was not accepting for whatever reason. We’ve been to Hell and back on this issue and cannot find a reason. What I was saying if you read carefully still recommending the OS though one of my computers will not accept it. There may be others who have the same kind of issue. You’re right, it is not the OS, it’s the computer hardware. But I just spent 8 weeks trying to resolve it and I think t’is time to accept the reality and just run either winxp or Kubuntu. Try not to be so touchy.

        • #2590453

          craiglarry: You are misreading me…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to I think it is clear that you’re having hardware problems…

          .
          You are misreading me. I’m not “touchy” about this at all. I was just trying to help you.

        • #2515694

          Tried the chooser

          by ambercroft ·

          In reply to As for distros choices

          and it recomended Slackware for me. Hmmm, good choice I think. I have tried many distros but have always returned to Slackware. It also recommended that as an alt. Gentoo may be of interest. It is in my pile of ‘to try’ when I have time.

        • #2515470

          If you want source-based software installs . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Tried the chooser

          . . . you might as well try FreeBSD instead. It’s more stable than Gentoo, and offers more software in its ports tree. The community has a more professional air to it, too, and it’s not full of ricers.

          edit: Also, documentation is better. Can’t forget the documentation.

        • #2538088

          I ran Gentoo

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to If you want source-based software installs . . .

          for almost 2 years at home. In that time I had an emerge –world command braek my system several times when poorly edited scripts/packages made it into the official “stable” portage tree. Gentoo is speedy (ran kde3.4 on a 450Mhz p2 with 256 Mb of ram at very usable speeds), very customizable, but tends to need tons n tons of tweaking and fixing. Its like the Jaguar (pre-ford) of the Linux world.

        • #2515190

          Breaking my silence.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Hey, that is a good idea!

          I thought I’d sit this one out since I have no Linux skills, no non-GUI web development skills, and no plans to abandon Windows / Vista. I do want to chime in long enough to second a couple of TE2’s motions.

          “No “religion”. No Microsoft bashing. No “M$”. No “Windoze”. No disrespect. But, OK to discuss the issues honestly.”

          ‘Nuff said.

          “Windows users are used to ONE choice … The choices available in Linux, BSD, etc. are complete overload for them … Maybe choose 3 distros to highlight?

          and

          “Corporate network issues.”

          Maybe one completely GUI-driven distro that won’t require any CLI interaction at all, for the people who are interested in replacing Windows for surfing, e-mail, multimedia downloads, but aren’t interested in optimizing performance, tweaking, etc. If possible this should be a live CD with Winmodem compatibility and an install option. A second distro for the uber-geek wannabe who wants to learn the nuts and bolts, the dual-boot type of user. A third for the corporate desktop, with tools for integration in a variety of network environments.

          That’s all. I’ll leave my two cents in the donation plate. Good luck.

        • #2515872

          I am in a similar boat

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Breaking my silence.

          as I know really nothing about Linux, but I do want to move over and get to know it better.
          ANy and all feedback should be looked at, and this is not a bad idea that you have. I may add for a good Server option as well (as far as I can see it would be one of the BSD servers).

          This would need a good ‘Basic’ distro for non technical, a good ‘Techie’ distro, a good ‘Business’ distro and a good ‘Server’ distro, and focus mainly on those.

          Then we can also list a page with other distros and links to good sites to look at and a breif description of what the benefit of that site will be.

        • #2514933

          I Have to Agree as Well

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Breaking my silence.

          As polar opposites TechExec2 and I are, he does have some decent ideas in there if he were to hold true to them.

          Nothing about this is “new”. But a site that is simple, straight forward, without jargon, complications, etc is needed.

          After all, the ultimate goal is to leave Windows not zealotry.

        • #2517450

          Yes!

          by vbarrs ·

          In reply to Hey, that is a good idea!

          As someone who WANTS to leave MS, but doesn’t know how, these are all wonderful ideas, and it’s exactly the type of information that I would need to help me in the transition.

        • #2590516

          so far Feisty Fawn Ubuntu 7.04 is the best I have TRIED

          by craiglarry9 ·

          In reply to Yes!

          You can get this free live CD from Canonical ubuntu. I’ve had an install problem with AMD Athlon 64 bit processor. But on Intel it’s a dream come true. I’m not bashing AMD. I have two and they have been great, but not with a second/or linux system. If I knew why and found how to resolve the issue I would be using it on the AMD also. It’s really pretty cool for this 68 year old retired English teacher. If I can handle anybody can.

        • #2578919

          Excellent Advice

          by druidhillarmory ·

          In reply to Hey, that is a good idea!

          I agree with your approach. I’ve a PC loaded with Mandrake 10, but don’t use it for much yet, simply because I don’t know much about Linux. Need to get Samba running to share files across the network, etc. Then I can get some users moved to new desktops. The biggest roadblocks for some of us newbies to “sans-MS” is knowing how to make the jump. Not too much useful info on the web about “how-to”. Thanks for taking the leap of providing such expertise. More of us might be successful with just a bit more knowledge.

        • #2578904

          Some ideas for you

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Excellent Advice

          .
          Mandrake 10 is about 3 years old. Things have come a long way since 2004. Lots of things work a lot better. I recommend you install Kubuntu 7.04, released about a month ago (1)(2).

          The key is to get your first Linux system up and running well for you. Kubuntu is the best one I’ve ever seen. And, Kubuntu (and Ubuntu) have some very good community help forums that will help you get going. After the first one, you can switch to another distro and experiment.

          Tip: Google is your friend (tip of the hat to Tigger). I have solved every Linux problem I have ever had via Google.

          Samba: You can configure Samba shares via the GUI.

          Good luck!

          ——————————————–

          (1) Hot tip for Windows users: Try Kubuntu 7.04
          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2228489

          (2) Kubuntu
          http://www.kubuntu.com

      • #2515022

        Hosted on Windows Live?

        by daytech ·

        In reply to nice idea

        Why not? The price is right….

        • #2515019

          There’s always a comedian in every group!! :^0

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Hosted on Windows Live?

          Very funny!! Outstanding!! :^0 :^0 :^0

    • #2537208

      Welcome! :)

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I am working with a variety of Linices as I have a group with widely divergent needs and they will all move away from Windows in the next two years. But the OS that lands in the vacated space must be right for the talent and abilities of the end user.

      We are fortunate that there are so many SMEs in this forum when you want direction in the Linux/Unix space. And putting a Mac OS X machine in the mix means that you already have an environment built on the power of BSD.

      I would strongly recommend that you add a BSD to your list. While outside of the capabilities of the folks I support, I will likely turn a box into Open BSD or Free BSD.

      I agree with your rationale and applaud your decision. MS finally drove me out too.

      • #2536995

        Thanks, Tigger!

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Welcome! :)

        .
        I’ll do that. I’ll take a look at BSD. There’s nothing stopping me from switching from Linux to BSD later. I want to stay with the x86 desktop precisely so that I can do things like that.

        Up until this Vista WGA nonsense, I never dreamed I would leave Windows like this.

        You know, it looks like Windows XP SP3 is going to implement and require Vista-style WGA complete with DE-activation. I have legal Windows, but I won’t allow Microsoft to waste my time with WGA failures. The Windows I keep running might be Windows 2000!

    • #2536939

      Hey Tech

      by jck ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      When I get the main Asus box done at my house, I will join in the fun.

      I am planning (hoping too) by year’s end to be off MS…only to use it in necessitated roles as XP gets moved to Extended Support/Not supported status.

      I really am sad that Microsoft has become the greedy behemoth.

      Oh…and…hopefully by the end of the year, I’ll also be helping to program one of the flavours of Linux 😀

      cheers

      • #2536902

        I too will leave an old friend

        by mslamen ·

        In reply to Hey Tech

        I beleive that leaving Microsoft is simply a matter knowing that life will still exist beyond Big Brother. The website would sure help alot of users move on.

        I too, plan to use another software solution in the near future.

      • #2515360

        It is sad…

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Hey Tech

        It is sad to see what has happened to Microsoft. They have become the kind of company that they were complaining about against 20 years ago, only worse.

        They sold $44 BILLION last year. That piracy problem is just KILLING them…

        Take care…

        • #2515283

          just for grins…guess what I did

          by jck ·

          In reply to It is sad…

          I registered “theleavingwindowsproject.com” today.

          I am gonna start working on the webpage this weekend.

          Wonder if Microsoft will allow me to use the Windows logo on my website, or if I have to make an allusory mockup that is similar but not identical enough to break the trademarking benchmarks for “looks like, sounds like” conditions of tort in a infringement claim.

          When I get the site running, I’ll let you all know. Would love to see Gates working at Best Buy one day here in Florida. 😀

        • #2515091

          great . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to just for grins…guess what I did

          Maybe we should just sit back and watch you do it, then, and not contribute much at all.

          Did you happen to notice there was already discussion above about a community effort?

          I think it’s time for bed. G’night.

        • #2516061

          whoa

          by jck ·

          In reply to great . . .

          dude…where did that come from?

          Did I ever say I was going to take over?

          Jesus man…take a deep breath…hope you got some sleep.

          The reason I went and got it…cause…some moron thinking “Hey…they are gonna start that…I can buy the registration and sell it to them if they are serious and make some money.”

          Maybe I’ll consider selling it for my cost to CNet if that will make you happy.

          So much for trying to be the nice guy. Sorry if I upset you by trying to be proactive in trying to help the cause.

        • #2515839

          a couple of quotes

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to whoa

          “[i]I am gonna start working on the webpage this weekend.[/i]”

          “[i]When I get the site running, I’ll let you all know.[/i]”

          These two statements, coupled with a complete lack of participation in the already in-progress discussion of the idea of a separate website, strike me as the statements of someone who decided to completely ignore the discussion already in progress and go off on his own to make something — and to hell with the rest of us. You’re welcome to it. Have fun.

          I guess I already have enough on my plate, anyway. Who needs another project, and thus less free time? Not me, I guess.

        • #2515791

          Not so fast Mister.!. ]:)

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          We still need to have that cup-a-coffee sometime, so don’t think you’re gona get out-a here so easy. Besides, you do have a lot of in-put for this subject mater, even if some of the others don’t know it.
          So there….. :p -d
          (and have a nice week-end too. 😉 )
          edited due to get’n old, and proud of it. 😀

        • #2515752

          fine

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          One point you totally ignored: If it was such a well thought-out, well-discussed, organized, in-progess movement…how come the URL was sitting out there for some URL capitalist venturer to buy up and hijack from TR members to use? Got an answer for that?

          I never said I was going to dictate all the content.

          Getting a site up doesn’t mean I will be sole contributor or designator of content.

          Get your panties out of a wad. I wasn’t hijacking the concept…I tried to keep some jerk-off from buying up the URL and keeping everyone in TR (including your paranoid self) from having the opportunity to use the name.

          I’ll let you make the call, apotheon:

          Do I sell it to TR or some TR member of your choosing for my cost, or actually donate my time and money and effort to try to get something going that people can use and contribute to and share their movement from Windows to other OSes with the world?

          I’m sick of being badgered for trying to help out and donate my resources so it can actually move forward.

          It’s up to you. You make the call. I won’t take grief for trying to be proactive and help.

          Just amazing. Next thing you know, I’ll probably get accused of wanting to hijack a plane when I book my next airline ticket too.

        • #2514776

          This “community project” broke down faster than I expected.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          Q. How many Linux advocates does it take to build a web site?

          A. Three. One to propose it and two to argue over the details.

          I didn’t expect the blood to start flowing until the “choice of distribution” discussion got serious.

        • #2514756

          I never argued

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          I came in here and told everyone I got the URL, and I’d start working on a site. From that, apotheon took it I was going to dictate everything.

          I guess a little initiative is unacceptable.

          And again…I will state to you all:

          I went and got the URL because, believe it or not, there are people out there still buying up URLs in a profit-making venture.

          Two of my co-workers do it. They will paruse site name auctions, open forums and discussion boards to find names they could buy for cheap and probably sell to someone for a profit…even if it’s $10 profit. I was trying to prevent this discussion from having to deal with someone like them once it tried to establish itself on the web.

          All I did was try to help. I never said I was taking anything over, or trying to dictate the content, purpose or direction of this discussion or the way the site would go.

          Hence why when apotheon quotes me as saying:
          [i]”I am gonna start working on the webpage this weekend.”

          “When I get the site running, I’ll let you all know.”[/i]

          He takes that to mean I hijacked the idea, when all I meant was I was going to get a start on the thing so there was no “This site coming soon…” sitting out there.

          And hence, why I have offered to sell it to TechRepublic or some user of TechRepublic to shut up the arguing.

          I hate strife.

          I hate conflict.

          And most of all, I hate being accused of having ill motives when my intent was to simply secure the URL for use by TR members to help the world move from under the umbrella of control of the monolithic absurdity called Microsoft.

          Again…

          I’m sorry I tried to help.

          I’m sorry I was proactive.

          I’m sorry I spent my own money.

          Take it as you will. I’m nixing the idea of putting up a forum for people to start posting in now until someone buys it from me, or until apotheon gives me his blessing to start building a framework for people to use. Seems as tho I have to get his nod before I can be a nice guy.

          I’m not into being badgered for trying to do good for TechRepublic users, and the movement to get the world from their dependency on Microsoft.

          And if you all disbelieve I am into moving into Linux myself, a certain Linux-interested TR member (who I won’t name without his consent) can verify I am…he’s been trying to help me troubleshoot a problem with getting WPA to work with the new motherboard in my gaming machine for about 3-4 months now. And, I have moved my music editing machine to Musix Linux (just upgraded it to 0.99 last night).

          Anyways…again…I am sorry I tried to help.

        • #2514729

          jck & Palmetto

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          .
          This appears to be much like starting a rock band. Sometimes the squabbles are louder than the music.

          Too bad, really.

          There is a way out of this. If things are not going quite the way you want, just lead off in your own direction. Maybe some of the others will follow you.

        • #2514715

          TechExec2

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          That’s the whole point:

          I never tried to go in *my* direction.

          I got a URL.

          I told everyone I’d gotten it.

          I said I was going to set something up.

          Apotheon took that to mean I’d hijacked/commandeered/taken-over/stolen the idea.

          That’s why I have offered to sell the URL at the cost I paid for the URL, the hosting, etc. I’m not a power monger.

          And as much, I am not going to take abuse or belittlement either for trying to help and be proactive.

          If you’d like to take over the URL, let me know. I’ll sell it to you for the cost I spent.

          It will be ready to go as of tomorrow morning on a PHP/Linux platform for anyone who wants to build the site.

          Again…sorry I tried to help.

        • #2514698

          jck: I know…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          .
          Like I said. I think what you did was just fine. You really cannot be responsible for someone else’s reaction.

          As I mentioned in my first reply to apotheon, I think the website idea was great. But, I really don’t have time to work on the website idea. From my perspective, any/all of you that want to do something like that should follow your heart.

        • #2514695

          I know…

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          but, I am not going to get into a “pissing match” with anyone about this. All I tried to do was be proactive and prevent headaches.

          I have been trying to migrate stuff to Linux dual boots on all 6 of my computers so that when Windows XP support ends in 5 years, I won’t be stuck being ignorant.

          Like I have said…one TR member…again, I won’t give his identity without his consent…has been helping me for 3-4 months to try to figure out WPA issues with my Realtek-based USB 802.11g controller on my Asus M2N32-SLi Deluxe Wireless Edition motherboard via email. He’s my Linux hero.

          I didn’t want to take anything from you or any other TR member. I tried to [b]facilitate the growth[/b] of this project…not take it over.

          Again…sorry I tried to help.

          It’s yours if you want to buy it.

          Otherwise, it expires March 8, 2008. Backorder the URL now, if you wish.

          I won’t put any more money, time, or effort into it. It is not worth it to me anymore. I’ll just help myself and people who come to me for assistance.

        • #2517007

          to: jck

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          I never said you had bad intentions.

          Here’s how I would have handled it in your position:

          1. Register the domain name.

          2. Post in the discussion subthread further up the page where a website was being discussed, saying “I registered the domain name blah.com so we’d have it reserved. Since you’ve already offered webhosting space and already said that a registered domain name can be pointed there, I can set that up as soon as you get the nameserver information to me.”

          3. Also say “Just so we get something moving, if nobody objects, I could set up a website this weekend. I guess if I don’t get any feedback before then, I’ll get that going this Saturday.”

          See how that works? You work with the community, asking for input and offering to help with what has [b]already been set in motion[/b].

          Instead, you did this:

          1. Registered the domain name.

          2. Said you were setting up a website.

          That’s it.

          I think you have some issues understanding how a “community” works.

          In any case, as I’ve already said, I’m perfectly willing to just get out of the way. I wasn’t planning on responding in this thread again, but you play the victim so well I figured I’d explain in detail why there was a problem from my perspective.

          Frankly, I don’t much care who runs what, as long as it works out in the end. Go for it. Good luck. If I’m so easily ignored, though, I won’t make an ass of myself by trying to get involved where I’m an unnecessary distraction.

        • #2517006

          whatever

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          Do what you want, dude. You obviously take me for some power mongering egotist.

          I just tried to make it happen faster, seeing as you nor anyone else…including the TechRepublic corporate or community…had secured the name.

          Anyways…It’s no longer my concern.

          One other point to make:

          You said: [i]Here’s how I would have handled it in your position:[/i]

          Well…you’re not me. So, don’t go thinking everyone should handle things how you would.

          And as for playing the victim…who brought up they’d been taken over when nothing of the such has been done? hmm?

          Anyways…

          You’ve gotten your way. I’m out of the loop. Hope you are happy.

          I’ll keep working with cooperative folks, while you try to determine how everyone else should act.

        • #2516974

          jck . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          I sent you a “peer mail”. Please read it with an open mind.

        • #2517435

          Let the Fingers Fly!

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          Wow! Such overreactions. jck didn’t couch his intentions well and apotheon pounced on him. In response, jck became an abused victim…in message after message. When apotheon decided to set the record straight, jck couldn’t even take the constructive criticism offered.

          apotheon was right that jck didn’t explain himself well, but apotheon assumed the worst of jck. A post asking about jck’s intentions might well have clarified all and prevented the ill will.

          jck didn’t inject himself into the discussion ideally. Perhaps he’s accustomed to being taken for a well intentioned participant rather than a usurper and didn’t think about how his post would come across to others. However, when apotheon thought ill of him, jck took his ball and went home instead of calmly explaining his intentions.

          You see, civility is important. Assume the best of others until proven otherwise. If there is a point of confusion or contention, assume the other party wishes an amicable resolution and seek that together until there is no recourse.

          If something you write is misjudged, explain yourself and hope readers will take you at your word. If you jump to the wrong conclusion, be big enough to apologize.

          My intention in writing this post is merely to smooth ruffled feathers and to describe a mode of interaction that will mitigate future problems.

        • #2517192

          for my part . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          I wish I’d phrased things a little differently. It’s still clear to me though — as it was in the beginning — that even if jck didn’t mean ill, he didn’t think through what he was doing enough to consider that he was blowing off an entire discussion. At best, he’s guilty of negligence. I don’t think he meant to hurt anything, but it’s possible to cause harm or problems without meaning to when you aren’t careful to pay attention to what’s already in progress.

          My error is in harsh phrasing. His is at least in willful ignorance.

          (edit: . . . and if he’d ever admitted that he made more of an error than omitting a word or two — that the entire approach was problematic — I wouldn’t be saying this now. I’m more than willing to say I should have phrased things differently, but his error was clearly more than one of phrasing.)

        • #2515648

          as I said…whatever

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          For someone who expressed to me that you wanted me to stop making ill references toward you…you have a funny way of perpetuating that more amiable level of interfacing.

          As I explained to you in the email (and I will now explain to the people in this discussion since my explanation to you was evidently not enough), I have been buried in work and family issues of late. I didn’t have time to read every one of the dozens of posts in this thread or any other thread since I’ve hardly had time to come on and read anything on TR at all. I work on half-a-dozen projects at once and quite often have 2-3 sessions of Visual Studio .NET 2003 running at one time.

          I’m sorry I didn’t sit and read the whole thread through before I did anything. I’m sorry I only have about 15-30 minutes once per month or two to come in and look around. In fact, I’ve been neglecting my work to come here and make sure I get the URL sold at cost so I don’t lose my money and you all get your URL, and respond to posts on this topic.

          If anything, I simply made the mistake of noticing that none of [b]YOU[/b] had taken the step of securing the website name that you all were considering using and got it. I spent my own money trying to help. I’m sure you all would have been fine with it though if some moron had secured it and tried to sell it to you for $25, instead of me who asked for nothing.

          I’m sorry I tried to help you.

          So I didn’t clearly state what I meant. Wow…like no one else has ever done that on TR. Thanks for choosing me to snap at.

          So I didn’t read the whole thread.
          Wow…sorry I don’t have time to read all the posts I don’t have time to read daily. Sorry I don’t have the free time that you expect me to have before I can choose to participate in some limited fashion.

          Fact is, I never…[b]never[/b] said…implied…expressed motive…or gave you any reason to believe my purpose was to take over this thread, concept, or ideal.

          If anyone wants to buy the URL “www.theleavingwindowsproject.com” from me, I will consider selling it to you at my cost. Contact me via peer mail. I do reserve the right of refusal to sell it to anyone I so deem not eligible or worthy, with or without reason.

          Otherwise, I am done here. I have to get back to optimizing code and re-writing an INFORMIX driver for Windows and modifying a Crystal Reports report generation tool I wrote, plus having a schedule meeting with my boss.

          That pays the bills…trying to help you all doesn’t.

          Have a nice day

        • #2515465

          “whatever” is such a friendly response . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          “[i]I’m sorry I didn’t sit and read the whole thread through before I did anything. I’m sorry I only have about 15-30 minutes once per month or two to come in and look around.[/i]”
          You apparently had enough time to start reading the idea I floated of creating a website, and maybe some of the ensuing discussion, and to decide to start creating a website — but not enough time to respond in that subthread rather than starting your own, or to find out what other people had in mind for creating a website. Your protestation is pretty thin.

          “[i]I’m sorry I tried to help you.[/i]”
          You demonstrate a continued lack of understanding of what happened. If you had apologized for negligence and leaping before looking, rather than sarcastically apologizing for your great magnanimity, I’m sure this little debate never would have happened. In fact, it’s really the sarcasm more than anything else that pisses me off in this case.

          “[i]So I didn’t read the whole thread.[/i]”
          Read enough to understand what’s going on, or don’t throw wrenches into the works thinking that we must need more tools.

          There’s no way in hell I’m going to just stand here and let you paint me as some kind of evil ogre without saying something about it, just because I pointed out that you were inconsiderate in your approach to “helping”.

          Note that term: inconsiderate. I’m not, and have never been, saying that you set out to destroy anything or take over anything — I may not have ruled it out entirely, but I never said that’s what you were doing. You were just being inconsiderate. At first, it was only a little inconsiderate — you didn’t bother to [b]consider[/b] whether running off on your own, overenthusiastically, might actually create difficulties. Then, you justified, excused, and generally played the victim when I tried to point out where you’d gone off the rails a little, with zero consideration for the fact that maybe you should think more before just [b]doing sh*t[/b] in an attempt to build a community project.

          I’m sorry you spent your money. I guess that’s fitting payment for the error of leaping before looking. Maybe someone who still has a stake in making this happen, who meets your exacting standards of worthiness, will offer to buy the domain name off you.

        • #2515445

          again…whatever…

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          You’re assuming I read anything about you starting anything dealing with the web.

          If you’d take the time to notice…the thread I’m in…is a sub-thread I started…not yours dealing with starting a site…but a direct sublet of the original post by TechExec. So, you assumed wrong about me reading about you or anyone else starting a site at the time I registered the URL.

          You assume I’d have been “throwing wrenches” into the plan. Thanks for your faith in me being a decent guy or any kind of technical addition to the effort. Guess I have to work at Wiki before you respect me, eh?

          You assume I was going to do it on my own. All I said was I was gonna setup a site. I never said I was not accepting input from others.

          As I said…someone can buy the site from me for cost. I’m not out to make a buck or corrupt this project.

          I tried to be proactive and acquire the site name to keep it from being bought up, whether you believe it was for positive intentions or not.

          I tried to do what I could and got sarcastically snapped at by you for the effort in an assumption by you that I was trying to take over…which…no matter what you want to say about me or assume…was totally [b]wrong[/b].

          How inconsiderate was I? I spent my own money. I took the time to see if the name was free. I took the time to register it. I took the time to tell you [b]IN PUBLIC[/b] that I had acquired it. Hell…if I’d have been a sneak and out to control it, I’d have hid behind the anonymous registration and got one of you to pay me for it.

          So again..can you answer?

          How much of an ass am I again, when you started with the smart-ass comment when I told everyone I registered the name??

          How was I trying to be sneaky when I publically informed all of you??

          How was I trying to take over when I made no statement saying I was doing so?

          You can talk about me being inconsiderate not having read all your posts and made sure I was not bowing to your requirements to contribute.

          But if you want to talk about inconsiderate or rude behaviour, you’ve done nothing but assume from the outset I was trying to take things over, control who contributed, and what not. And, you have [b]NEVER[/b] apologized for any assumption of my character as a person that you have made.

          Again…I’m done with it. I’ll be working with the one person who’s interfaced with me from TR to help me with my issues, and I will continue to help those I can through other avenues such as other discussion forums.

          You might think whatever is a rude reply, but I tried to explain to you what I’d done and what my motives were…and all you’ve done is insisted that I’m the one who started this whole argument…when you were, in fact, the one who started the rude, snapping comments.

          TechExec really made the start to this whole thing…and, he didn’t say anything like what you did. I appreciate his not assuming I was trying to take this over.

          As for you, apotheon, I really don’t care what you think. You can try and give this thing direction and guide it how you will.
          Whether you think much of me or not (as a person or a technical individual), you have lost a possible resource in alienating me with your comments.

          So I didn’t read all the posts.

          So I didn’t go and get everyone’s permission to register the site name.

          So I didn’t ask your permission to contribute.

          Big deal. It meant nothing to anyone but you. No one else snapped at me for it. So, I guess that makes you in the minority.

          Again. I’m done with it. I’m leaving the office now and going home to a beer and calling my girlfriend to see how she’s doing while visiting her sister in NC.

          Have a nice day.

        • #2515439

          Enough, Please!

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          jck’s continuous protestations of innocence, humility, and victimization are astounding considering how little time jck claims to not have for reading TR, much less this forum.

          apotheon directly, plainly, and clearly apologized for overreacting in the initial response to jck’s website post. jck won’t accept that apology but continues to rant.

          apotheon, please don’t respond anymore; you have amply justified yourself and made your apologies.

          jck, please spend your precious, limited time elsewhere so we can move on here.

        • #2515410

          Stew…I tried

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          I tried to even explain to him in a peer mail reply that it wasn’t done with any ill motive.

          He still tried to lay blame on starting it to me. He wasn’t willing to assume I was trying to help. He just assumed I was trying to hurt. He assumed wrong.

          I’d also like to correct you:

          2 replies by apotheon posted after I said I’d registered the name:
          #1 –
          [i]”Maybe we should just sit back and watch you do it, then, and not contribute much at all.

          Did you happen to notice there was already discussion above about a community effort?

          I think it’s time for bed. G’night. [/i]

          and #2-
          [i]…These two statements, coupled with a complete lack of participation in the already in-progress discussion of the idea of a separate website, strike me as the statements of someone who decided to completely ignore the discussion already in progress and go off on his own to make something — and to hell with the rest of us. You’re welcome to it. Have fun.

          I guess I already have enough on my plate, anyway. Who needs another project, and thus less free time? Not me, I guess. “[/i]

          I see no apologies in either of those. Where do you see them?

          Anyways…you all can have the effort. I never wanted it. I wanted to help. Guess that will teach me to try and be nice.

          As for the URL…perhaps I’ll make apotheon right and go put it up for sale to the highest bidder instead of trying to make good and sell it for no profit to someone here to try and quell the argument.

          That way he’d finally be right about something in concern to my character.

          Time for my beer…and to call my girl.

          Have a nice day…

        • #2515374

          one (hopefully) last post to this subthread

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          [b]stew[/b]: Thanks.

          [b]jck[/b]:
          “[i]I tried to even explain to him in a peer mail reply that it wasn’t done with any ill motive.

          He still tried to lay blame on starting it to me. He wasn’t willing to assume I was trying to help. He just assumed I was trying to hurt. He assumed wrong.[/i]”

          You obviously haven’t understood a word I said.

        • #2517745

          you’re finally right about something

          by jck ·

          In reply to a couple of quotes

          I don’t understand you or what your intent is other than to try and get me to admit I was wrong for trying to help.

          If so, then here you are:

          I apologize for trying to help things move forward.

          I apologize for trying to keep this effort from hitting a stumbling block in trying to get the URL that matches its name.

          I apologize for spending my money to try and forward the progress of Linux in the computer world.

          There you go. I’m so guilty for trying to make things progress and help prevent issues. Wow…I’m such a bad guy.

          I tried to explain to you. Yet you kept on about how I was wrong for doing something however naively I did it, when from the start you purposefully antagonized me based on inaccurate assumptions of my character and intent.

          If TechExec wants to buy the URL for the price on my invoice, it’s his/hers (sorry in the past I’ve assumed you’re male if you are not, TechExec). If not, I may or may not do something in the future and redirect the URL to a different URL of my naming.

          I don’t have time for this discussion anymore. I have to go troubleshoot an ODBC interface and go work on a webserver configuration and billing system interface as well as review about 15 projects the boss has lined up for me in the next 6 months including working to convert our SCO box to Redhat Enterprise.

          Have fun with this project, apotheon. I’m sure your input will be valued.

          I just hope, for the sake of the others here, that you won’t make the same negative assumptions of others, as you have of me, that try to help things move forward.

          Again…have a nice day…or at least try to.

          Arrivederci

        • #2515016

          Outstanding!!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to just for grins…guess what I did

          .
          [I don’t mean to intentionally be contradictory to apotheon here…]

          I’m sure you know you’ll probably get a cease and desist letter if you use their logo. But, that only means you’ve made the club!

        • #2516057

          oh trust me…

          by jck ·

          In reply to Outstanding!!

          I won’t use their logo without written, legal permission from Microsoft corporate. I do keep a legal firm on retainer.

          However with Photoshop, I can make a reasonably similar yet quite different logo to Microsoft’s that won’t be actionable under trademark law.

          As for Apotheon, I don’t know where his comment above came from…you’d think I’d just stole his mother’s purse or something by his reaction.

          As I said in the reply to him…I got it so some other schmuck (you know…like the ones that scan TechRepublic to fill their spam bots?) didn’t buy the name to try and get money out of TR members. Notice…I asked for no money…and, I bought the name the hosting, etc…out of my own pocket.

          And, I figured I could look into trying to setup something like Coppermine to have a forum for discussions this weekend

          Like I said…so much for trying to be the nice guy…his post just friggin ruined my morning.

          At least you didn’t blow up on me. I appreciate your restraint.

          One thing I did notice, I accidentally signed up for Windows-based server deployment, rather than Linux-based. I have to modify that sometime.

          I’ll try to keep you up-to-date as to when I get things rolling, TechExec2.

        • #2516009

          Ironic?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to oh trust me…

          to have it running on a windows-based deployment?

          Almost as funny as when MS HAD to pay a third party vendor to proxy for them to protect from the DOS attacks they were under (that were running LINUX servers to protect MS).

          And don’t worry. Some of us know your too much of a socialistic liberal weenie to try something as evil as capitalism to turn an evil profit with the site registration. :p

          [i](that is a joke, in case you didn’t recognize it)

        • #2515998

          yeah yeah

          by jck ·

          In reply to Ironic?

          leave it to the right wing snow loving elitest nutjob to judge someone else.

          You and Anne Coulter should go have lunch and go think of other reasons that calling someone a “faggot” is okay for Republicans to do 😛 (that’s a joke too…har har)

          As I said…I’m gonna switch it to Linux…was zipping through the registration and just selected the first one in the list for a 1 year server hosting…didn’t notice it was Windows til I went to the initialization. It will be Linux-based by the weekend.

        • #2515986

          I think you did just fine…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to oh trust me…

          .
          I think you did just fine. And, securing a great domain name like that is a great thing you have done. I think you are to be applauded very heavily for doing what you did. If a bunch of TR people want to jump in and start working on a website, or websites, I think that is just great. There is no secret here (global public forum!) and I don’t see a hierarchy. I think it is a community effort. Go for it!

          I am actually not directly involved in the website part of this, but I’m interested to see what all of you are doing with it. I think it’s GREAT! 😀

          [b][i]”…One thing I did notice, I accidentally signed up for Windows-based server deployment, rather than Linux-based…”[/i][/b]

          Now…THAT is really funny!!! :^0 :^0 :^0

          Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!

        • #2515982

          yeah well…

          by jck ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          I explained it to jdclyde…

          I was in a hurry…just picked the first 1 year hosting package in the list, and didn’t notice it was Windows-based until I went to initialise the site.

          I’ll try to get the Coppermine forum up…and create a few sections…sometime this weekend.

          Thanks for the kudos…I needed it after the ass-chewing earlier from apotheon and the harassment from the Rush-wanna-be.

        • #2515972

          bad news…so far

          by jck ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          they locked the modify option…can’t convert to linux…yet.

          have to call the host and see if they can modify my site to be a linux site.

          Will keep u updated

        • #2514752

          good news finally

          by jck ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          By 8am, 10 March 2007, the site will be a PHP/Linux-based site.

        • #2514717

          jck: Of course!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          .
          I’m sure you’ll have no problem getting your website the way you want it. All the best!

        • #2514706

          one last time

          by jck ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          It’s not *my* site.

          It’s not *my* idea.

          I never wanted it to be *my* site.

          I never claimed it was *my* idea.

          Again…I got it to try and help things move forward. I didn’t want anyone to run into having to deal with a web entrepeneur who wanted $100 for the name and hosting.

          Seriously if you’re interested in the URL then e-mail me, Techexec2. I’ll sell you the damn package I bought.

          I’m not going to deal with this whole possessive bull$hit. It’s just friggin absurd. It’s what I get for trying to be nice and proactive and spend my money to help further the cause of getting the world out from under Microsoft, and to try and set up something that [b]all of you[/b] could use and contribute to in this effort.

          You can have the damn ordeal, if you want it.

          I’ll just keep working with the one person from TR who’s been kind enough to help me out in moving to Linux.

          He knows who he is. Thanks man.

        • #2516922

          Hey jck

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          I have MASSES of links, etc that may be of some help. I have some preliminary trial and error… more error than I care to admit but I’m learning at an amazing rate.

          I would like to see this get off the ground. I am willing to participate in any way that is deemed meaningful. I just want to see an effort to simplify the average users thinking about life in teh Linux/BSD lane.

          I think people need alternatives and unfortunately, Linux almost provides too many. Open source is a maze to many.

        • #2517381

          Hey TT

          by jck ·

          In reply to I think you did just fine…

          if u want to buy it and do the site for everyone, I’ll sell u the domain.

          TechExec hasn’t expressed interest, and I really don’t feel like trying to contribute anymore.

          Let me know. I’ll figure out a way to sell it to you and fax u a copy of my cost from the host so u don’t have to pay a penny more than what I did.

          I’ve decided to go into the development side rather than “community effort” side. Not much into explaining myself when I’ve not wronged anyone here before.

          Let me know.

          jck

    • #2515292

      Sounds Great if…

      by smallbiz-techwiz ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      you can actually switch to using only applications written for Linux or MAC. Business needs dictate which applications you must have. The applications dictate which operating system they must run on. All the major business apps still require a Windows platform.

      The only reason I haven’t switched to SuSe Linux is Quickbooks. I haven’t found a comparable Linux-based accounting app that will download banking transactions and handle payroll. If I could get all my work done using apps that run on Linux, I would have no hesitation saying goodbye to Windows.

      As it is, the driving force for this revolution remains in the hands of the top application developers.

      • #2515281

        This was actually brought up earlier

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Sounds Great if…

        If for business reasons it willnot work to move yet, then do not move. There are many office tasks and companies that can move the majority of their systems to Linux/Mac/other. But many SW makers will create programs for what will sell the most, and that is Windows right now.

        If you can, set-up a home system using Linux and use it for many tasks. Frequent SW makers sites and ask if they are looking at aking their apps work in Linux/mac/other. If enough requests from different people go in, then they may start looking at creating these applications.
        The more people that do switch, the more likely in the next few years, an alternative OS will have more options for business.

        • #2515269

          or-

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to This was actually brought up earlier

          Look to Europe….
          over here many business’s have been in on Penquin way for a long time. (a lot use NO M$ at all, and never did) -d

        • #2515200

          Europe is leading the way on this

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to or-

          .
          Absolutely! People in Europe are leading the way on Linux adoption. Like many people, I started using Windows because it worked, and because everyone else was doing it. Once a change to Linux (or any other platform) starts happening, it should grow in an exponential manner. This general dissatisfaction with Vista may be a spark that triggers an escalation of leaving Windows in America. We’ll just have to see.

      • #2515270

        Have you tried…

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to Sounds Great if…

        Quasar yet?
        Quasar Accounting Software availible from Linux-Canada.
        http://www.linuxcanada.com/
        with a Wiki here:
        http://telco-op.org/quasarwiki
        it is available both as Open- or Closed Source. (for commercial / retail).

      • #2515201

        Good observations. Good post!

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Sounds Great if…

        .
        [b][i]”…All the major business apps still require a Windows platform…”[/i][/b]

        and

        [b][i]”…As it is, the driving force for this revolution remains in the hands of the top application developers…”[/i][/b]

        Exactly. This is the age old chicken and egg problem. Commercial application developers aren’t going to develop for a platform that doesn’t have enough users. Users aren’t going to switch to a platform that doesn’t have the applications they want to run.

        How long will Microsoft be kept in business by the chicken and egg problem? :^0

        Large corps with internal business apps written to Windows clients, servers, and 3rd party enterprise middleware won’t migrate to Linux unless they make a strategic decision to do so. It would be a larger-scale version of my strategic decision to leave Windows. You are absolutely right about that.

        [b][i]”…The only reason I haven’t switched to SuSe Linux is Quickbooks…”[/i][/b]

        I have some issues like that also. I plan to run Windows in a VM for as long as I want to run those Windows apps. And, if WGA gets in the way (and it might), I’ll go back to Windows 2000 in the VM. It’s part of the project to prove that this will work well, or not. But, I’m optimistic and expect it to. Windows is a “legacy” operating system for me now.

        From (1):

        [b][i]”…The PC maker [Dell] said it received more than 100,000 customer requests for Linux in a “suggestion box” posted on Dell’s Web site less than three weeks ago…”[/i][/b]

        and

        [b][i]”…The second most popular request was that Dell offer another popular free software title, OpenOffice, which competes with Microsoft Office programs including Word, Excel and PowerPoint…”[/i][/b]

        It seems that there is a measurable wind blowing in the direction of Linux. If Dell offers either of these two things preloaded on Dell computers, I predict Steve Ballmer’s head will explode. Film at 11 (2).

        ———————————–

        (1) Dell may offer Linux as alternative to Windows
        http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUKN0644160820070307

        (2) Steve Ballmer is a [i]WILDMAN[/i] (WARNING: HAS SOUND)

      • #2517406

        Try some WINE

        by larry the security guy ·

        In reply to Sounds Great if…

        I’m not saying Quickbooks will work with it, but WINE does do a pretty good job of supporting many Windows-based applications.

        A company called Codeweavers has a product called CrossOver, which can make installing and running Windows software easy.

    • #2515263

      ok, Put me on the ….

      by dawgit ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Payroll, :^0 I work cheep :^0 (cheep-cheep, but I bite, so be real carefull) No need for the SSN an all that, There really is no security in life anyway, and I’m not all that social(able) either.
      Really this fits in with a long term project that I started around 5 years ago now. Other that certain specific graphic programs and CAD, it’s mostly being done already here.
      Let me know, I’d be glad to offer any input that might help. -d

    • #2514818

      Apps missing on non-Windows

      by leesti ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Hi, ALL

      I tried such and experiment some time ago.

      I used SuSE/KDE with Open Office with pretty much the same mix of other apps as the article’s author. However I find that there are certain applications that were missing 100% from Linux. Such as:
      -Visio. Couldn’t find anything close to it.
      -PDA syncronisation software (I use Palm OS -based Treo).

      If only I could have these two things solved, I would have switched to Linux and said bye- bye to Microsoft.

      PS: Well, actually it would be just great to have something like Outllok, which will allow CRM-like add-ons like Iambic Agendus.

      PPS: I would be delighted to share my experience if there would be a web site to publish it.

      • #2516888

        Have you tried WINE?

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Apps missing on non-Windows

        Recently I commented in a Linux discussion that I really wanted my Outlook. I was sent to install WINE. Afterwards, Office 03 installed fine and much of Outlook ran fine (it hung trying to create .pst files though).
        In any event, it did work mostly. You could look at WINE and see if it will work for your sync issue.

      • #2516856

        You might also want to take a look at osalt.com

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Apps missing on non-Windows

        Osalt = open source alternatives.

        This page, http://www.osalt.com/visio has 5 alternatives to Visio.

        • #2516801

          [i]MOST HELPFUL TO ME[/i] so far!!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to You might also want to take a look at osalt.com

          .
          There have been other posts here that have been helpful to me. But, this one is the most helpful so far! I had not tried to replace Visio yet. And YOU have given me a good replacement. It was already installed on my Windows XP system (OpenOffice Draw), and soon will be on my Linux system (has -1 OOo version). I hadn’t yet worked with OO Draw yet, just Writer and Calc.

          I am very happy about this! 🙂

          Further, osalt.com is a GREAT resource that I did not know about yet.

          So, THANK YOU very much! 🙂

        • #2516797

          YOU are welcome

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to [i]MOST HELPFUL TO ME[/i] so far!!

      • #2516799

        My plan for my Palm device

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Apps missing on non-Windows

        .
        I use a Palm device also. My plan is to:

        1. Sync with Palm Desktop running on a Macintosh instead. Or…

        2. Sync with Palm Desktop running on Windows inside a VM.

        Either way, I am 100% confident it will work very well.

    • #2514728

      Put Off

      by now left tr ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      The bickering and “that was my idea” posts that are going on here just identify the problems that the Open Source Community bring to the table. It is also one of the reasons many do not want to go there in the first place. I don’t think that was the best advert for the I’m Leaving Out the Windows project.

      Why not Just Start over in a new thread and call it ‘CatFlap Beta’ – meeeeeeawwww.

      That or sit in a cave – they had no Windows 🙂

      • #2517043

        new thread idea

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Put Off

        I didnt read much of the bickering when it was starting I moved on. No time for it really.

        A new thread to get the project moving forward. Probably will not help at this point. I just read a bunch and it looked like it was a mess.

        But in moving on, how about one of these topics for a new thread

        Linux Disputes
        Windows2Linux
        Create My Ultimate Linux Distro (–should bring in lots and lots of arguments).

        I mean really, any of these could bring lots of insults. we can get into large bickering matches just for the sake of doing it, with everybody trying to ‘outdo’ each other.

        For me, I liked the idea behind this, a website with good info for leaving Windows and moving along. If it was setup well, I am sure it would be pretty popular.

        • #2516795

          There has been…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to new thread idea

          .
          There has been some unfortunate behavior here. But, there is nothing new about that. It’s not an “open source” issue. It happens [u]everywhere[/u]. It’s human nature. It happens in spades at Microsoft, I can tell you that. People get fired at Microsoft if the internal “family” business spills over into the public view. So, we rarely see it. But, sometimes it does, and I [u]know[/u] it happens there in spades.

          The important thing is to strike a balance between the non-productive differences and the productive results-producing activity. This thread has been out of balance so far on the website concept. There are people here who really believe in it though. I expect some of them will get together and make it happen.

          In spite of a lot of “family” squabbles, an incredible thing has been produced through open source and community projects. There is a rock solid operating system (Linux), lots of rock solid server-ware (e.g. Apache web server, PostgreSQL relational database), and lots of powerful applications (e.g. OpenOffice productivity suite). And, all of it has been accomplished without WGA capricious DE-activation and without selling $44B in software each year. That is the important thing to keep in mind.

        • #2516691

          “it has been accomplished without … selling $44B in software”

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to There has been…

          You say that like it’s a good thing. Surely open source software and profitability are not mutually exclusive. 🙂

        • #2516688

          Open source and profitability

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to “it has been accomplished without … selling $44B in software”

          .
          Being open source, you really cannot build a business around selling the [u]software[/u] per se. But, you can sell services (e.g. RedHat support, TiVo service…TiVo runs Linux, you know…).

          Oh, and the $44B is fine. I’m not against profits. I only cited it to illustrate how important the accomplishments of open source have been since the software itself is not being sold at all.

          BTW: This post…was written from a Linux system with the KDE desktop! Both run the Firefox browser. The desktop works very much like the Windows XP system sitting next to it! :^0

      • #2516800

        So…You think this is unique to open source?

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Put Off

        .
        The arguments inside Microsoft over design and direction make the squabbles here look very very tame by comparison. I [u]know[/u] this…for a fact.

        This kind of thing is part of human nature. And you know that, don’t you :-). You’re just stirring the pot, something we all know and “love” TheTechMale for.

        You are…heckling from the sidelines.

    • #2516684

      LeaveWindows

      by orefa ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I have just noticed that this short and rather explicit domain name is currently available in .com, .net, .org denominations (and more). FYI.

      • #2516660

        Which one?

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to LeaveWindows

        ?:| Which link is it that you’re refering to? -d

    • #2516234

      Well well

      by *bernie ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      “I have 100% confidence that there will be more moves by Microsoft that displease me.”

      Clearly a review ‘with the intention of objectivism’.

    • #2516232

      Like the project!

      by scorpioso69 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Sounds Great, TechExec2!!!

      I recently started playing with Mandriva 2007.

      I do a lot of dvd video editing on Pinncale Studio, what can use on Linux?
      Will my Sony digicam connect to Linux via Firewire ok? If I get the answers to these questions,then I’m swinging my home network as well, ASAP.

      • #2516213

        Here are some ideas

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Like the project!

        .
        I don’t do video editing and am still in the early stages of this project. I’m not sure about how well Linux systems work with digital cameras and Firewire yet. Someone else here may be able to offer some good input on that.

        Here are some ideas for video editing on Linux (1). This website is an EXCELLENT resource for open source programs that perform all sorts of functions, and which commercial programs they compare to.

        Take care…

        ————————-

        (1) Video Editing on Linux
        http://www.osalt.com/multimedia-and-audio

    • #2516228

      I can understand Linux, but why Macintosh?

      by bigal3 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I feel the same way about Windows. However, why move to a Macintosh? In my view, Windows is designed by a committee, while the Mac OS is designed by one man. If you don’t like the way he works – tough! What’s more, if the Mac had 95% of market share, I wonder if Apple would be a benevolent despot?

      Stick to Linux, say Ubuntu or Linspire (I know they’ve partnered), even for your notebook!

      Still, congratulations, I am only running one Ubuntu desktop next to XP, right now…

      • #2516222

        Because it works!

        by bikingbill ·

        In reply to I can understand Linux, but why Macintosh?

        I made the shift at home 18 months ago from Windows to Mac. I was fed up that every single night I’d get home after a day in the office doing Windows support to “Da-aa-ad, the computer’s not working!”. In fact, I was so fed up with this that I bought the Mac over the internet without ever having even seen the OS. I will happily tell people it is one of the smartest things I ever did. As the slogan says ‘it just works’. No (well, almost no) hassles.
        You are right to ask how Steve Jobs would behave with 95% of the market. But I think that will be hypothetical within the lifetime of my present and next few Macs. So for the foreseeable future I’ll buy Macs and take life easy!

      • #2516221

        Because it works!

        by bikingbill ·

        In reply to I can understand Linux, but why Macintosh?

        I made the shift at home 18 months ago from Windows to Mac. I was fed up that every single night I’d get home after a day in the office doing Windows support to “Da-aa-ad, the computer’s not working!”. In fact, I was so fed up with this that I bought the Mac over the internet without ever having even seen the OS. I will happily tell people it is one of the smartest things I ever did. As the slogan says ‘it just works’. No (well, almost no) hassles.
        You are right to ask how Steve Jobs would behave with 95% of the market. But I think that will be hypothetical within the lifetime of my present and next few Macs. So for the foreseeable future I’ll buy Macs and take life easy!

        • #2517386

          apparently not when posting in a forum

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Because it works!

          Must be that worthless one button mouse
          Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😉

        • #2517365

          :^0

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to apparently not when posting in a forum

        • #2538173

          And I guess you’re still using File Manager and Program Manager

          by gordon gonsalves ·

          In reply to apparently not when posting in a forum

          Mac OS X has supported multi-button mice since its
          inception over half a decade ago.

          There are soooo many myths surrounding Macs and OS X,
          simply based on hearsay and people who have never spent
          any time with the OS behave like experts.

          Everyone here, listen up. If you’ve never used OS X,
          humble yourselves and remain quite until you actually
          know what you’re talking about. That’s good advice for
          just about anything, BTW.

        • #2538104

          great . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to And I guess you’re still using File Manager and Program Manager

          Y’know, MS Windows has supported better GUI interfaces (like Litestep), better security (in the form of extensive registry editing and piles of third-party software), and greater data security (by way of doing daily backups and using [url=http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-3513_11-6172851.html][b]quality version control software[/b][/url] with repositories on other computers) for years, too. The fact you have to [b]set all that crap up[/b], and that it’s [b]not the default[/b], makes a difference. The one-button mouse issue [b]especially[/b] makes a difference with laptops, where the one-button pointing device is [b]a physical part of the computer[/b] because of Apple’s obstinate refusal to do the smart thing.

          I’ve used MacOS X. I kinda liked it. I didn’t like it as much as customized Debian GNU/Linux or FreeBSD, but it wasn’t bad at all. I used a desktop system with a five-button mouse and a thirty-inch widescreen monitor (I envy Mac monitors).

          . . . but I’d never waste my money on a laptop whose integrated pointing device only had one button, and forced RSI-inducing keyboard combinations to access context menus and the like.

      • #2516220

        Because it works!

        by bikingbill ·

        In reply to I can understand Linux, but why Macintosh?

        I made the shift at home 18 months ago from Windows to Mac. I was fed up that every single night I’d get home after a day in the office doing Windows support to “Da-aa-ad, the computer’s not working!”. In fact, I was so fed up with this that I bought the Mac over the internet without ever having even seen the OS. I will happily tell people it is one of the smartest things I ever did. As the slogan says ‘it just works’. No (well, almost no) hassles.
        You are right to ask how Steve Jobs would behave with 95% of the market. But I think that will be hypothetical within the lifetime of my present and next few Macs. So for the foreseeable future I’ll buy Macs and take life easy!

      • #2516219

        Sorry about the multiple replies

        by bikingbill ·

        In reply to I can understand Linux, but why Macintosh?

        Sorry about that, it wasn’t deliberate.

      • #2516204

        Why a Macintosh notebook?

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to I can understand Linux, but why Macintosh?

        .
        As you likely know, MacOS X and Linux are actually pretty closely related. MacOS X is based on BSD Unix.

        It is possible to run Linux on a notebook computer. However, by choosing a MacBook notebook, I have a computer for which there is lots of 3rd party commercial software and hardware available. That need will arise from time to time (e.g. certain commercial software, fancy MFC printers, digital cameras, etc). And, I know that the Mac will “just work”. This is very attractive in a notebook when traveling on business. Finally, I use iTunes, something that only runs on Windows and Macintosh.

        I would likely go Macintosh on the desktop also except that I’m a techie and like the hardware flexibility of an X86 PC (even more 3rd party hardware components, PCI slots, drive bays, commodity pricing, etc). The only Macintosh that comes close is the MacPro tower, a very very expensive computer.

        Thanks for your good wishes!

    • #2516208

      I agree but……..

      by mleclercq ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I am a Microsoft lover who is slowly begining to change her mind.
      I agree that MS is going too far by dictating how the the paying costumers can use their software and bullying them into submition, but not being that computer savy i will have to stick with MS liking or not.
      Great article making me wanting to learn Linux.

      • #2516201

        If you wish to leave Windows…

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to I agree but……..

        .
        If you wish to leave Windows, but are not comfortable with Linux, perhaps you should consider a Macintosh. MacOS X is based on BSD Unix. Under the hood, MacOS X and Linux have a lot in common. And, the new Macs have Intel X86 CPUs and can actually run Windows too. It’s easier than ever to gradually leave Windows and move to Macintosh these days.

        All on their own, non-technical users can buy a Mac and FLY without depending on the techie next door much, or at all.

        A good place to check this out would be an Apple Retail store. There are three of them located in Toronto (1). They LOVE to help Windows users convert to the Mac, so you should get a lot of help with your questions there.

        Thanks for your kind words.

        All the best to you!

        —————————————

        (1) Apple retails stores in Canada
        http://www.apple.com/ca/retail/

    • #2516119

      THANK You!

      by vbarrs ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      First let me say that I’m not an IT expert. In fact, I’m pretty much an amateur with limited capabilities. But because of my work, I consider myself a “power” PC user, so I’m very interested in the Windows vs. Linux debate. My father has been running Linux on his PC for years, and LOVES it! I, too, am not liking the direction that Microsoft is going in terms of it’s software and operating system, so this article was both very interesting and informative. My major objection to switching operating systems is document compatibility. I would love to be able to change operating systems and not be held hostage by Microsoft and the ever-increasing controlling nature of its software and operating systems, and now my compatibility issues seem to be a moot point.

      I just have one request: Can you please post a step-by-step guide to switching to an all-Linux environment for those of us who are IT-challenged?

      • #2516079

        You’re welcome!

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to THANK You!

        .
        [b][i]”…My major objection to switching operating systems is document compatibility…”[/i][/b]

        I would suggest you first try switching to what I call “portable applications” — those that are available for Windows and Linux (and Mac). There are a lot of these, they are excellent these days, and many are free and open source. Install them on your Windows XP computer and work with them there. If they work well with your documents on Windows, they should work equally well with them on Linux.

        In particular, try OpenOffice as a replacement for Microsoft Office. I just switched to OpenOffice last week full-time. So far I have not found any compatibility problems with my Word and Excel documents. But, it has only been a week.

        [b][i]”…I just have one request: Can you please post a step-by-step guide to switching to an all-Linux environment for those of us who are IT-challenged?…”[/i][/b]

        I have had Linux running on a secondary PC for a couple of years, but I have only just begun to move from full-time Windows to full-time Linux myself. The path I’m following is listed in my original post. The first two phases are:

        Phase 1: Switch to portable applications while I’m still on Windows XP (e.g. OpenOffice). Work out any issues while still on Windows XP. At the same time, work with those same applications on a separate Linux system.

        Phase 2: When things on the Linux sytem are working well for me, I will switch to Linux full-time and the Windows XP system will be the secondary computer.

        Here is a suggestion for you:

        Download PCLinuxOS and burn it to a CD. Then, boot your PC from the CD. The PCLinuxOS CD enables you to get a broad and deep experience with Linux without having to actually install it on your computer. It runs from the CD as a demonstration. You can also install from the CD to your hard drive.

        PCLinuxOS works and looks a lot like Windows XP and is easy for Windows users to pick up and use immediately.

        All the best to you!

        ———————————

        PCLinuxOS
        http://www.pclinuxos.com

        OpenOffice
        http://www.openoffice.org

        • #2517379

          Great first steps

          by vbarrs ·

          In reply to You’re welcome!

          Thanks again. Your suggestions for how to logically begin the switch-over are a great help.

    • #2516084

      Nearly Windows Free

      by pohair ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I left Windows last year. I run Ubuntu linux on my AMD64, and for the rare occasion I need Windows (i.e. opening a ‘difficult’ Word document that OpenOffice can’t handle), I have a Windows 2000 Pro running in a virtual machine. (I downloaded the Service packs before they stopped supporting it – I suggest you do it for XP)

      One Note: If you go the route I just mentioned, be wary of any updates to the linux kernel, as that tends to break Vmware Server.

      Unfortunately, my wife is still mired in the Windows world.

      Good luck to you, and welcome to linux and the world of free software.

      • #2516074

        A success story! Thanks!

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Nearly Windows Free

        .
        Thanks for your good wishes.

        And, thanks for the tip about Windows 2000. Since making this post last week, I have been rethinking and considering running Windows 2000 in the VM instead of Windows XP. I have legal Windows 2000 also and there are no WGA activation problems with it. Since I’m leaving Windows, it really doesn’t matter much if it’s Windows 2000 or Windows 2001 (XP) now does it?

        Thanks again!

      • #2517482

        Free Software

        by now left tr ·

        In reply to Nearly Windows Free

        Is that the only reason you left to run this?

        You wanted somthing for nothing?

        You still have a VMWare install – I take it the install if fully licenced along with the version of office it runs?

        Now that is not free is it?

        • #2533667

          VM Server for linux

          by pohair ·

          In reply to Free Software

          VM Server for linux is a free download from VMware.com (I think it may be free for Windows, too). Just remember to register and get a license for it.


          ohair

      • #2517378

        skacz1

        by skacz1 ·

        In reply to Nearly Windows Free

        I am trying to install Linux(Fedora) but so far the install does not recognize my modem, my printer, and my mouse. Do I have to buy all new equipment?

        • #2517362

          Some thoughts…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to skacz1

          .
          Not sure what the problem is. I use Fedora and don’t have your problem. It sounds like a hardware detection issue. You don’t need to get all new hardware to run Linux.

          Here is a suggestion for you:

          Download PCLinuxOS and burn it to a CD. Then, boot your PC from the CD. The PCLinuxOS CD enables you to get a broad and deep experience with Linux without having to actually install it on your computer. It runs from the CD as a demonstration and detects all of your hardware during the boot. You can also install from the CD to your hard drive.

          PCLinuxOS works and looks a lot like Windows XP and is easy for Windows users to pick up and use immediately.

          http://www.pclinuxos.com

        • #2533665

          Fedora

          by pohair ·

          In reply to skacz1

          I haven’t used Fedora. I use Ubuntu, which found everything on my system. You can download the CD-rom image, and run Ubuntu from the CD. If you like it, you have the option to install it from there.

          Is your modem a winmodem – a modem that uses the system CPU to perform some of the modem duties, and thus requires a special driver?

          I usually select the generic 3-button mouse.

          I don’t have a local printer, so I always have to setup my network printer separately.

          Hope this helps…


          ohair

      • #2517376

        skacz1

        by skacz1 ·

        In reply to Nearly Windows Free

        I forgot. I can’t use my Creative Sound.

    • #2517465

      Emotional Overload

      by fbuchan ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Any time I read such a plan I look for two things: underlying cause for the decision, and degree of emotion.

      I won’t argue the underlying cause for the decision, as stated, because its as good as any other reason to switch.

      But technical business decisions should not be made emotionally, and the language of the post is highly emotional. Given the challenges of such a switch and the fact the solutions named are no more perfect in many aspects than MS offerings, that emotion will cripple adoption and implementation if allowed free reign.

      Good luck.

      • #2517426

        Good Call

        by now left tr ·

        In reply to Emotional Overload

        Time to – CHECK YOUR HEAD NOW!

      • #2517420

        Good observations

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Emotional Overload

        .
        You are correct on both counts.

        (1) There is a solid logical rational reason I am making this switch. And,

        (2) I am pissed off about what Microsoft has done to my computer with Vista’s WGA, and I did not attempt to hide that.

        This is not an accident and is completely genuine. I see this as an emotional issue for people (as it is for me). Writing about this subject with the emotion excised would be too sterilized. It wouldn’t be human. It wouldn’t ring true.

        The key problem is the Vista WGA capricious DE-activation thing. Absent that, I would not be leaving Windows like this at all.

        The important thing is how the project is implemented. It is going to take place deliberately over a period of months. There is no rush to get off Windows. It’s a strategic decision.

        It’s OK to have emotions about something. What counts is what you do with them.

        Thanks for your post.

    • #2517412

      Deactivation not intentional

      by sonicclang ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Check out this knowledge base article. http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=931573
      The deactivation isn’t intentional, there was a bug in the initial release of Vista that caused some users to have to re-activate their previously activated installation of Vista. From everything I’ve read, after reading about this “leaving windows” project, I can’t find anything about Microsoft intentionally putting code in Vista that monitors what software and hardware you have installed, and if doesn’t like something, it deactivates itself. I put in at least 20 minutes of searching and reading to find any information to support your claims, but I can’t find it. I’d love a link if you have one, or proof that this exists.

      I am one that has already upgraded to Vista (and yes, I do mean upgrade) and I’m extremely happy with it. I think it’s the slickest OS I’ve ever seen. So I will not be making any switch to another OS.

      One more thing, I love when people say MS is greedy, as if Macintosh is non profit or something, or not out to make any money.

      EDIT: Ok I think I may have found what you’re talking about. But, according to this post http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2006/11/02/news-revision-to-windows-vista-retail-licensing-terms.aspx making simple hardware changes will not cause spontaneous deactivation.
      Either way, you’ve got 30 days to give MS a call and clear it up.

      • #2517374

        Lots of answers for you

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Deactivation not intentional

        .
        [b][i]”…The deactivation isn’t intentional, there was a bug in the initial release of Vista that caused some users to have to re-activate their previously activated installation of Vista…”[/i][/b]

        It does not change anything for me if it was a bug or not. There is still logic in the operating system that deactivates itself based on hardware and software changes (proofs follow). In Ed Bott’s case (4), he merely installed a game. When he ran the game, Vista immediately de-activated and gave him 3 days to re-activate or “Windows would stop working”.

        Even if this bug is really fixed now, how do we know there are not other bugs? How do we know there will not be new bugs introduced later? I guarantee there will be others.

        Furthermore, step back and think about this for a moment. The purpose of WGA is to stop pirates from stealing Windows. The XP version was unsufficient and pirates got around it. So, the Vista version is more aggressive. In order for this to be effective, there must be triggers all over the place inside the millions of lines of Vista code. If there were not, the pirates could easily find the code that checks for WGA violations and simply remove it. With lots and lots of triggers for the “bomb”, how can it be trusted to be safe?

        I say it cannot be trusted to be safe. And, the 972,000 Google hits supports that (2). Microsoft even has a special forum just for this in Vista (7) and in Windows XP (9).

        [b]The Microsoft Knowledge Base article[/b]

        I was aware of the Microsoft Knowledge Base article you referenced (1). The article says certain software events can trigger a demand for immediate activation when “activation was not previously required”. That is not very clear language. Presumably this means after install but before you choose to activate for the first time (the 30-day grace period).

        If WGA is 100% bug-free, and this statement is 100% correct, and I’ve correctly interpreted the odd language, then this is limited to before you activate for the first time. The bottom line though is that there is SOMETHING in Vista’s WGA that reacts to software events. I don’t trust that it is 100% bug-free (Ed Bott’s case).

        Quoting from the KB article:

        [i]”…You may be prompted to activate Windows Vista on a computer on which Windows Vista activation was not previously required. Although this problem rarely occurs, [u]it may occur during typical use of a Windows Vista-based computer[/u]. For example, this problem may occur under one or more of the following conditions: (1) [u]You install a device driver[/u]. (2) [u]You install a program[/u]. (3) [u]You run a new program[/u]. (4) [u]You remove a program[/u]…”[/i]

        Vista’s WGA is reacting to software changes you make. Software changes can trigger a demand for activation.

        [b]A lot of people are having problems with Vista WGA[/b]

        Vista’s WGA hasn’t given you any problems. It did not give me any problems during the Vista beta either. But, a lot of people are having problems with Vista’s more aggressive WGA (2), and with Windows XP’s WGA (3).

        [b][i]”…I can’t find anything about Microsoft intentionally putting code in Vista that monitors what software and hardware you have installed, and if doesn’t like something, it deactivates itself…”[/i][/b]

        From (6):

        [i]”…Windows Vista may enter reduced functionality mode if one of the following conditions is true: … You modify the computer hardware so that Windows Vista determines that it is running on a different computer…”[/i]

        In Ed Bott’s case (4), he merely installed and ran a game and received the message [i]”…Activate Windows now. Windows was deactivated due to a hardware change. You must activate Windows within 3 days or Windows will stop working. Click to start activation…”[/i]

        In this KB article (5), it says that de-activation can occur when

        [i]”…A program that is incompatible with Windows Vista is installed on the computer. For example, one of the following programs is installed on the computer: (1) A computer game that uses “nProtect GameGuard” protection from INCA Internet Co., LTD. (2) TuneUp Utilities…”[/i]

        That is two examples too many for me.

        Conclusion: There is code inside Vista that is affected by software you install or run that can trigger de-activation. It is not clear what “incompatible with Windows Vista” means.

        [b]Vista’s activation has been cracked[/b]

        According to this article (8), Vista’s activation scheme has been cracked. This means pirates can get a valid activation code that belongs to, or will belong to, someone else. When the pirate activates it, the real customer will later be denied.

        Hopefully Microsoft will believe you are the legitimate customer and the already registered guy is really the pirate. Will they?

        [b]In closing[/b]

        I think it is fine if you or anyone else wants to run Vista even given this WGA nonsense. It’s not “stupid” to choose to run Vista in spite of this. You just have to sign up for the potential of hassles and wasted time including capricious de-activation, re-activation via the Internet (if it lets you), or re-activation by phone (if they let you). There is no guarantee this nonsense will happen to you only when you are not using your computer for something really important. Will it happen to your laptop when you are traveling on business and without easy access to the Internet?

        I like Vista. I would like to run Vista. But, the mere presence of aggressive de-activation code inside Vista is unacceptable to me. I’m going to switch to another operating system that doesn’t do that.

        ———————–

        (1) Microsoft KB – You may be prompted to activate Windows Vista on a computer on which Windows Vista was already activated by a Volume License or OEM installation
        http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=931573

        (2) 972,000 Google hits on 4 words: windows vista wga problem
        http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+vista+wga+problem&btnG=Search

        (3) 1,060,000 Google hits on 4 words: windows xp wga problem
        http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+xp+wga+problem&btnG=Google+Search

        (4) Ed Bott’s message reports hardware change triggered de-activation
        http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=221

        (5) Microsoft KB – Error message when you use Windows Vista: “An unauthorized change was made to your license”
        http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/931699/en-us

        (6) Microsoft KB – The behavior of reduced functionality mode in Windows Vista
        http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925582

        (7) Microsoft’s Windows Vista Validation Issues Forum
        http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=1004&SiteID=25

        (8) Vista activation cracked
        http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/networking/?p=218

        (9) Microsoft’s Windows XP Validation Issues Forum
        http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=442&SiteID=25

        • #2517227

          Dudes and Bombs

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Lots of answers for you

          Man, get over this bomb in the software thing.

          Do some research and see exactly what caused their WGA issues. This issue is so over blown. And real research, not hearsay and rumors.

          One of the most common causes of triggering your so called “bomb” is gaming software that uses less than desirable tactics to prevent others from cheating while playing.

          IMHO, some of this anti-cheating software is borderline rootkit, malware anyways.

        • #2517218

          Blame the “explosion” on the software? Blame the user?

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Dudes and Bombs

          .
          I blame Microsoft for putting the “bomb” in there in the first place.

          The software that triggers the “bomb” is not to blame.

          Users that use Windows and trigger the “bomb” are not to blame.

          If there were no “bomb”, there would be no problem at all.

          [b][i]”…Do some research and see exactly what caused their WGA issues. This issue is so over blown. And real research, not hearsay and rumors…”[/i][/b]

          The results of my research are plain to see. I’ve listed lots of information supporting my view of this WGA nonsense.

          Where is your research?

      • #2517369

        Reply to your edited message

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Deactivation not intentional

        .
        [b][i]”…Either way, you’ve got 30 days to give MS a call and clear it up…”[/i][/b]

        If it works as they say, yes. It didn’t work that way for Ed Bott.

        I think of it this way:

        Vista ships with a bomb in it. Microsoft says the bomb is only supposed to go off when Vista is stolen. But, Microsoft acknowledges the timer on the bomb can start sometimes even when Vista has not been stolen. Microsoft says you’ve always got 30 days to defuse the bomb so you don’t need to worry about it.

        I don’t trust that it will always be 30 days. Proof: Ed Bott. I don’t trust that it will always be at least 3 days. I don’t trust it. I won’t use it on my primary computer (maybe a secondary one I don’t care that much about). I am going to use an operating system that I will never ever have this problem with, not even once.

        [b][i]”…One more thing, I love when people say MS is greedy, as if Macintosh is non profit or something, or not out to make any money…”[/i][/b]

        I don’t care about how much money Microsoft makes, you understand. They sold $44 BILLION in software last year and cleared $18 BILLION in profit. That doesn’t sound like a very serious piracy problem to me. I think it must take incredible greed to want more than that so badly that they must put legitimate customers through this WGA activation and re-activation nonsense in an attempt to get it. That is the only reason I mentioned greed and profits.

        Of course Apple wants and makes big profits. But, Apple did not choose to hurt their customers like Microsoft has. That’s the difference.

        • #2517319

          That’s fine…

          by sonicclang ·

          In reply to Reply to your edited message

          I guess I’ll just live with a bomb inside my computer that may or may not ever go off. If the time ever does come that I have to deal with re-activating my installation, it’ll be ant hills compared to the aggravation I’d end up going through for years to come with software compatibility issues if I were to move to Linux. Windows is the standard. The software I need only runs on Windows, or Mac… and there’s no way I’d ever move to Mac. I’m totally willing to live with the few inconveniences I run into with Windows, to have the convenience of being able to run whatever software I want, and not have to check the box for OS compatibility.

          I know you’re not trying to convince people to get rid of Windows, I just think in every conversation there should two sides. Point, counter point. You’re choosing to deal with lost time and learning a new system as opposed to running into potential problems in the future, and I’m fine living with the risk of something possibly happening.

        • #2517191

          Is that so?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to That’s fine…

          “[i]If the time ever does come that I have to deal with re-activating my installation, it’ll be ant hills compared to the aggravation I’d end up going through for years to come with software compatibility issues if I were to move to Linux.[/i]”
          Funny . . . a lot of us don’t have that problem at all with Linux.

          “[i]I’m totally willing to live with the few inconveniences I run into with Windows, to have the convenience of being able to run whatever software I want, and not have to check the box for OS compatibility.[/i]”
          That’s easy to say, if you constrain your preferences in software to “what works on my OS”. It’s not so easy if you’re talking about all software.

          Perhaps you’re just not aware that there are [b]thousands[/b] of applications that run on Linux (or even on MacOS X) and not on Windows. One wonders whether you’ve heard of something like Camino (a web browser for MacOS X that doesn’t run on Windows), or iptables (a stateful firewall system for network packet inspection security, only on Linux), or any of several excellent dependency-managing port and package management systems available to a wide range of operating systems that [b]are not MS Windows[/b] — but would definitely make it a much more stable and convenient OS.

          I’m always amused when some MS Windows-phile crows about the ease of going to the store, buying packaged software, coming home, and installing it, or buying it online and waiting for it to arrive three weeks later by mail before installing it. I’m amused because, in contrast, users of Linux- and BSD-based OSes think nothing of installing a critical productivity-enhancing software by typing something like “apt-get install program” at the command line, waiting forty-five seconds or so, then using it. Period.

          Yeah, it must be [url=http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=212]much more difficult to install software on Linux[/url].

          “[i]I know you’re not trying to convince people to get rid of Windows, I just think in every conversation there should two sides.[/i]”
          It would be nice if your side used a valid argument. There are a few, but I don’t feel any particular need to feed them to you — especially since the purpose of this thread isn’t to discuss whether people [b]should[/b] leave MS Windows, but to discuss how to help people that [b]already are[/b] leaving MS Windows.

        • #2515424

          Downloading vs. buying – speed depends on connection.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Is that so?

          “… users of Linux … think nothing of … typing something … at the command line, waiting forty-five seconds or so, then using it.”

          Assuming you have broadband. For those of us with dial-up, sometimes going to the store is faster 🙂

        • #2515372

          Yes, and no . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Downloading vs. buying – speed depends on connection.

          If you order something online, or want to install software when the stores are already closed, even a dial-up connection can be faster than purchasing commercial proprietary software.

          If you have the current complete archive on CDs, you don’t have to wait for download times, because you already have it handy. Imagine a mere fifteen-CD set containing about 20k discrete software packages. Not too shabby.

          On the other hand, sometimes it is faster to go to the store when you’re on dial-up. Not always, but sometimes.

        • #2517729

          CDs / DVDs – Sometimes useful, sometimes not

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Yes, and no . . .

          You remember the problem we had last summer when we failed to install software from my Fedora DVD’s? I’m sure it was a combination of ignorance on my part and a series of poor explanations I posted here. All I know is I’ve got a set of DVDs that I can’t use to install programs other than during the initial set up.

        • #2517544

          The SW packages that come on the dvd

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Yes, and no . . .

          should be accessible even after setup. At least on SUSE 10.1 it was for me. Was there a problem with locating them? Or was the problem with not using the right utility (SW package) to get to them properly.

        • #2532710

          w2k, details

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Yes, and no . . .

          The problem was getting yum to see the DVDs as repositories. See http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=90&threadID=200979&messageID=2094621

          for the gory details.

    • #2517399

      On my way out the back, too, Jack

      by craiglarry9 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I’m in line with you on most everything except itunes and quicktime(even though an old Powerbook guy). But my needs are simpler than yours. I’m retired and doing some writing, but these MS people are not the kind I want telling me what to do. I don’t hate them, but they sure are off the track, aren’t they? I’m in transition, doing dual boot, Linux Kubuntu and winxp, looking for clear blue sky and fresh air. Ffinding some right now. Cheers

    • #2517310

      Apples are designed to just “work”…

      by metilley9 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      This sounds like a great plan but I wanted to let you know about my recent experiences with the Apple iMac (the new one that uses the Intel Duo Core 2 processor).

      It seems the software that translates the old PowerPC instruction set to the Intel doesn’t work like it is supposed to. Let me explain why I think that is.

      First of all, let me say upfront that I am a PC user (Zeos, then Micron, now Dell). I would love to move everything to an Apple PowerPC and I do NOT plan to buy Vista. I love the Apple design and admire the loyalty Apple users have towards Apple Computer, Inc.

      About two months ago my father, aged 81, purchased a new Apple iMac (17″ screen) to replace his old iMac that got fried from a lightning strike. He asked me to help him move his Quicken back up files to his new machine.

      I got him a SanDisk USB memory stick and we transferred the export files from the old machine (still workable, only the Ethernet card was “fried”). When we attempted to import these files into the new iMac it would not work. The Apple could not “see” these files on the USB stick or any other file. Not only wouldn’t it work, it would not boot properly. It seems that it found another wireless router in the building (he lives in a multi-family condominium), and wanted to know what name he should associate with this connection. 🙁

      After turning off the built-in Apple Airport and connecting to his DSL connection via Ethernet (about 2 days later), we were back to the task of getting his backed up Quicken files to his new Quicken software installed on his new iMac. Well, it still didn’t work. We wasted about two weeks trying all kinds of things the Apple “Genius bar” suggested and trying various things Quicken technical support told us to do. None of these things worked.

      Six months later Quicken still does not work on his new iMac. He has the old iMac to play games on and uses the new one to connect to the Internet and send/receive emails.

      So, I no longer want an Apple. My “experience” was not a happy one. They are not “intuitive” and they do not “simply work”. I may change my mind in the future but not now.

      • #2517222

        The Mac “just works” (except when it doesn’t)

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Apples are designed to just “work”…

        .
        Correctly put: My experience is the that the Mac “just works” far more often than any other kind of computer. But, it doesn’t always “just work”.

        Your experience demonstrates that underneath it all, a Macintosh is still a computer (a BSD Unix computer). And, when something is not right, it is possible for a Macintosh to misbehave just like any other computer.

        I also have a SanDisk Cruzer USB flash drive and it works fine with my Macintosh. So, there is “merely” a problem to solve here.

        Suggestions:

        [b]1. Be sure to “eject” the USB drive before unplug.[/b]

        A USB flash drive must be “ejected” before it is removed. Click on the “eject” icon to unmount and “eject” the drive. After the icon disappears, unplug the drive from the USB port.

        If you did not use this procedure to properly “eject” the drive, it is possible that the files that you copied to the USB drive did not actually make it all the way onto the USB flash drive. The files could have still resided in cache in the memory of the computer.

        Also: Physically disconnecting the USB flash drive without properly “ejecting” it first can result in data corruption on the USB flash drive. If that occurred, you will need to reformat the USB flash drive. You would do this with the “Disk Utility” (it’s in the “Utilities” folder).

        [b]2. Use e-mail to transfer the quicken file as an attachment[/b]

        If your father’s Quicken file is no larger than 10MB (or 20MB), you could move it from the old iMac to the new one as an e-mail attachment.

        2.1. Use the modem in the old iMac to connect to the Internet (since the Ethernet port is fried).

        2.2. Create a free Yahoo webmail account. This account has a maximum per-email attachment size of 10MB. A paid account ($20/year) has a 20MB maximum per e-mail.

        2.3. Create an e-mail with the Quicken file attached to it. Use compression to reduce the file size if necessary. Send the e-mail from the Yahoo e-mail account to itself.

        2.4. From the new iMac, sign in to the Yahoo mail account. Open the e-mail in the Inbox, and download the attached Quicken file.

        [b]3. Directly connect both Macintosh computers via a FireWire cable.[/b]

        You can connect two Macintosh computers together via a FireWire cable. One of them will act as an external hard drive for the other one. This is called “target disk mode”. The old iMac would be the hard drive. You would see it on the new iMac as an external hard drive icon. You would then just drag the files with the mouse to copy them between the computers.

        How to use FireWire target disk mode
        http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58583

        [b]4. Burn a CD to transfer the files[/b]

        Burn a CD on the old iMac. Move the CD to the new iMac. (I presume you thought of this one but included it just in case…I miss the obvious ones sometimes too…).

        [b]5. Get a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply)[/b]

        A good UPS can protect your precious computer from a lightning strike. They cost less than $100 and are worth every penny. Every computer should have one. Every TiVo too.

        I hope one of these ideas solves the problem for you. Good luck!

        P.S. If this helped, post back and let me know! 🙂

        • #2515658

          UPS Won’t Save NIC

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to The Mac “just works” (except when it doesn’t)

          In answer to the OP’s iMac’s NIC being fried, you suggested a UPS. A UPS is unlikely to have saved the NIC if nothing else in the computer took a hit. It is more likely that the surge hit the NIC via the network cable.

        • #2515641

          Mine does. You make an excellent point!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to UPS Won’t Save NIC

          .
          You make an excellent point. In order to fully protect your computer from a lightning strike, you must protect it from all wires that enter the building and connect to your computer. That includes AC, cable/satellite coaxial cable, and telephone (for DSL and analog modem).

          The one I use does that (1). Great point! I’m glad you pointed this out.

          ————————–

          (1) Tripp-lite SmartPro Digital UPS SMART1000LCD
          You can find this model discounted at about $100.
          http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3071

        • #2515585

          a good UPS

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Mine does. You make an excellent point!

          This is the one that I am using. Actually I have 2 of these and an APC. All points are checked, network lines, coax (cable), etc from the APC. Network lines and computers are on the Belkins.
          Although more expensive than $100, these units have gone through several blackouts and still test out just fine. I think they costed around $170 ea.
          http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=186810#

        • #2515577

          Thanks for the tip! (NT)

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to a good UPS

    • #2517292

      Free from Micro$oft and lovin’ it!

      by sallitt ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      My home network has been a Micro$oft free zone since early last year. I haven’t looked back! It’s great, no sxcambling to get enough hardware to run Vista, no licencing issues, no Malware and Spyware problems. Everything just works!
      My advise to anyone thinking of doing it.. Go for it! Linux or Mac, just do it!

      • #2517225

        Comical!

        by rkuhn040172 ·

        In reply to Free from Micro$oft and lovin’ it!

        Home network – $500 PC will run Vista so no scrambling for hardware

        Home network – same $500 PC has no licensing issues

        Home network – don’t surf porn or open unsolicited emails and buy anti-malware software or even free versions and problems practically go away

        That was a lame post just spreading more FUD.

        If you are smart enough to switch from Windows to Linux and retrain, read books, manuals, etc then you are smart enough to be able to secure Windows quite easily.

        BTW, my Win XP box…JUST WORKS TOO!

        • #2517220

          rickk: If the man is happy, he is a winner

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Comical!

          .
          The important thing is that if this man is happy with his computer, he is a winner. It does not matter if it is Windows, Macintosh, or Linux.

          Furthermore: This man has been able to accomplish something that you admit to failing at. He has gotten Linux to work for him. And, so have I.

          Anecdote: I’ve used a great many computers over the decades. The only computer that has EVER become infected with malware was running Windows.

          There was nothing lame about his post. As for your post…

        • #2515720

          Whatever

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to rickk: If the man is happy, he is a winner

          I’ve come to expect these types of replies from you too.

          More than poking fun at him, I was correcting him.

          He made some statements that were flat out false.

        • #2517188

          a few points

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Comical!

          “[i]Home network – $500 PC will run Vista so no scrambling for hardware

          Home network – same $500 PC has no licensing issues[/i]”

          1. Only $500? Wow! I’ll just save up my pennies and . . . wait, no, I get better performance out of my four year old computer with FreeBSD than I would off a $500 brand new computer with Vista. Why would I want to spend that money? I forget. Maybe I should just be glad I spent my money on a new office chair and two laser printers instead.

          2. No licensing issues? You mean, like the issue with license enforcement causing me to have to “reactivate” my OS if I swap out the video card? Darn! I just got a new video card that I’ll be installing in that four year old computer because I want to play World of Warcraft on it. Good thing I’m not going to be playing WoW on MS Windows, or I might have to reactivate the OS after putting in the new card. Darn those nonexistent licensing issues.

          “[i]If you are smart enough to switch from Windows to Linux[/i]”
          . . . then you’re smart enough to:

          1. switch to Vista, too, but there are some good reasons to avoid Vista.

          2. have good reasons for switching, rather than doing so just to piss off rickk.

          3. know that being able to secure MS Windows does not equate to being able to secure MS Windows — and keep it secure — without doing a lot of work, spending a lot of money, losing a lot of functionality, or some combination of these options. I, for one, prefer security that requires considerably less maintenance. The moral is that it’s entirely possible to know how to do something and [i]still[/i] not want to go to the effort.

        • #2515718

          You Like Stretching The True

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to a few points

          First off, yes most people would be happier with a new $500 PC than some old, clunky 4 year model. Just like a car, at some point, just maintaining and updating a 4 year old PC becomes more expensive than replacing it.

          Second, like I said earlier, I just rebuilt my PC. Added a new hard drive, swapped out the audio card and repartitioned everything. Funny, WGA didn’t say anything.

          Third, securing Windows is alot easier than most think. The vast majority of Windows vulnerabilities nowadays can be avoided with just some common, everyday basic sense.

          Hell, I had a Windows 98 laptop I ran for at least 4 years virus free.

          You can stretch the facts as much as you want but the bottom line is it isn’t hard to secure Windows…it is hard to secure the end user (which is a problem with Linux too).

        • #2515484

          Really!

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to You Like Stretching The True

          “First off, yes most people would be happier with a new $500 PC than some old, clunky 4 year model. Just like a car, at some point, just maintaining and updating a 4 year old PC becomes more expensive than replacing it.”

          If by clunky you mean that Vista is slow on it, and by ‘maintaining’ you mean ‘upgrading to Vista standards’ then I see your point. Otherwise, I am using a 5 year old system and have not needed to do any ‘maintaining’ of it at all. I also have a 4 yr. old syste, and it has not needed anything except a video card replacement ($60) a couple of years ago. How is this ‘maintaining’ causing me to spend more money than getting a new $500 system just to run Vista?

          “Second, like I said earlier, I just rebuilt my PC. Added a new hard drive, swapped out the audio card and repartitioned everything. Funny, WGA didn’t say anything.”

          Funny thing here, MS website is full of people with WGA activation issues and now even SW can trigger a re-activation. You might not have had a problem, but many others are.

          “Third, securing Windows is alot easier than most think. The vast majority of Windows vulnerabilities nowadays can be avoided with just some common, everyday basic sense.”

          Ok, I accidentally type a URL wrong and get infected, this is not a ‘common sense’ error, it is an accident by going to a wrong (but similar) URL.

          “Hell, I had a Windows 98 laptop I ran for at least 4 years virus free.”

          Great, I have a 98SE desktop still in use. Virus free as well. It does not mean that I cannot get a virus, just that I was able to avoid it so far.

          “You can stretch the facts as much as you want but the bottom line is it isn’t hard to secure Windows…it is hard to secure the end user (which is a problem with Linux too).”

          Ok, we agree on something. Common sense and securing the OS is a must these days. It can be a task at first, but it is well worth it in the long run. It does not matter what OS you are using, it needs to be secured.

        • #2515461

          beautiful

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Really!

          I was composing a reply to rickk in my head — then I saw that you’d basically written it. My work here is done (for now). Thanks for a well-reasoned, intelligent response, so I don’t have to type it up myself.

        • #2517186

          Why knock him when he’s happier with Linux?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Comical!

          NT

        • #2515460

          Oh, I know the answer to that.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Why knock him when he’s happier with Linux?

          It’s because rickk hates Linux and loves to give grief to Linux users. Why else?

        • #2515418

          More Fool You

          by sallitt ·

          In reply to Comical!

          More fool you for blowing $500 on a POS machine just so you can run Vista.

          I spent $0 on hardware and I’m running the lastest Ubuntu just perfectly.

          Correct me if I’m wrong but this is a forum on leaving Windows… So how is it lame to say you left windows, and had a good experience doing so.

          I spend enough time securing a fleet of 300 Windows Servers, why would I want to spend time at home securing Windows as well.

          Sam
          (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer)

        • #2524055

          Who cares if your vista works…

          by deanbar ·

          In reply to Comical!

          rickk@.. you and your other MS Apostles are not getting
          the message.. the reason people are posting on this site is
          because we’ve had enough of MS, so stop trying to push it
          down our throats. Go and post on other MS forums, we
          don’t want you opinions here, we don’t need them.

          Whatever growing pains need to be endured to escape
          from MS, will be endured by more and more people fed up
          with MS.

          OS X is more than a good alternative, and Linux will soon
          be there also.

          Don’t forget there were growing pains with all previous
          OS’s when they were introduced, but at least Linux has
          come a long way now and with further help from the
          community, will before long be much easier to use all
          round, not what MS zealots want to hear, but leave us to
          get on with our progress while you carry on using Vista,
          we won’t hold that against you.

    • #2515499

      Linux from Windows

      by stew2 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Not everyone will abandon Windows altogether. Those with feet in both camps should also be included in the audience of these discussions and the web site under consideration.

      I’ve converted my family to FF, T-Bird, and OpenOffice. However, the kids run various games and edutainment titles which will require WINE (or similar) at the least and likely dual booting or a virtual machine approach, so I don’t think I can get them off Windows altogether.

      I’ve tried coLinux, but I haven’t gotten it to start correctly on my system. I’ve used CygWin, but it’s painful. A live CD won’t work nicely since you can’t save state on the host and it’s a pain to boot from a CD all of the time anyway. I could run Xming or some other X server on the Windows machines to connect to a remote Linux server. That even permits a full screen window with a Linux desktop like KDE or Gnome, but the clients would still be running Windows all of the time.

      To dual boot, I’d need to repartition disks on each machine. Obviously, there are Windows apps for that, but I wonder whether there is a good tool that could be run from a live CD or some other means to repartition a hard disk with Windows already installed.

      Dual booting will work, but it is a hassle to need to stop what one is doing, reboot into the other OS, and then reverse the process however often needed. Using virtual machine technology seems like a nice way to go as it allows both OSes to coexist simultaneously on the system (what coLinux promises, too). If that’s viable, would it be better to use xen or something else on a Linux box to host Windows or to use VMWare or similar to host Linux from Windows?

      • #2515480

        an alternative to dual boot hassles

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Linux from Windows

        I got tired of dual boot issues way back in 2k. I picked up an IDE HDD enclosure which uses an open cd slot on the case.
        I set it to master
        then I obtained 3 more trays for it (total cost around $70 at the time). I had extra HDD’s laying around so no extra costs there.
        Anyway, I installed each HDD as master and just swap trays for swapping OS’s

        The drawback is having to keep the HDD’s somewhere (external to system). But, I can use each HDD independantly and no need to fuss with multi-boot problems OR crashing drive taking all of my OS’s away

        • #2515437

          I Fail to Understand How That Helps

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to an alternative to dual boot hassles

          As best as I can understand your solution, you’ve simply skipped partitioning a drive and using a boot loader to choose what OS you want and replaced it with swapping disks. You still must shut down one OS to start another. That doesn’t allow two OSes to coexist.

        • #2515434

          You are right. An alternative

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I Fail to Understand How That Helps

          to have multiple OS’s loaded on 1 system at the same time is to use a virtual PC software. There are quite a few out there, but you will need enough memory and disk space for each to run, plus extra for virtual memory and apps.

        • #2517697

          Need More Resources

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to You are right. An alternative

          You make a good point about the memory and disk needs when running a virtual system. 1GB is a great amount of memory for an XP box, but it may be insufficient with a virtual machine solution.

      • #2515471

        Repartitioning etc

        by freebird54 ·

        In reply to Linux from Windows

        No problem to repartition with many of the Linux distros out there. For instance – the Ubuntu family of distros include (on the live CD) a utility with the functionality of Partition Magic. (Resize, Move, Copy, Create etc etc).

        I’ve been trying the virtualization options out there – and I think hosting Windows on Linux has a slight edge at the moment, as both VMWare and VirtualBox have the most incentive to be sure that it works (something about the relative numbers out there?) No reason the opposite would not be fine though.

        One possible factor – will your XP/Vista see the virtual machine as a change? Will you need to re-activate (probably) ? This extra hassle might make a difference to your direction of choice, as the cost of virtualization is minimal in dollar terms (if not time!)

        • #2515435

          Repartitioning

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to Repartitioning etc

          Thanks for the pointer to the Ubuntu family live CD tool. I’ll look into it.

        • #2515428

          Virtualization

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to Repartitioning etc

          I think hosting Windows on Linux has a slight edge at the moment, as both VMWare and VirtualBox have the most incentive

          Actually, doesn’t VMWare run below all OSes you want to run? IOW, both Linux and Windows would be on virtual machines provided by VMWare, right? (I don’t know about VirtualBox.)

          You’re right that activation could be an issue for XP, but I own the license, so I should be able to reactivate it if there’s a problem and then not worry about it thereafter.

        • #2515414

          Depends on the VMware product

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Virtualization

          Their server products run as Linux-based operating systems with the client OSs running under it.

          However, they have a free “Player” product that runs as an application for either Windows or Linux. You can download pre-built virtual machines that can be run with the Player app. They have lots more pre-built Linux virtual machines, in a variety of distributions, than pre-built virtual Windows machines.

          Go to VMware’s web site, look for the Products tab, then scroll down until you see the “Free” section. Check out the Player link. It includes a link to four pages of downloadable pre-built virtual machines.

          They actually have another product that runs as an app under a previously installed OS. Designed for testing and labs, it isn’t free, but it does include a lot of vm management features you won’t need to test Linux at home.

        • #2517622

          Got It

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to Depends on the VMware product

          If I use VMWare Server, I’d have to use VMWare Converter to convert my XP install to a virtual machine and then create another VM for Linux. OTOH, if I use VMWare Player, then I can run Linux in XP such that the Linux VM is an app so far as XP is concerned.

          I can imagine that using VMWare Server is the superior solution ultimately, at least if never quite abandoning XP, but using VMWare Player is a handy way of making the transition.

          (I hope information like this makes its way into the web site.)

      • #2515458

        partition resizing . . .

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to Linux from Windows

        “[i]I wonder whether there is a good tool that could be run from a live CD or some other means to repartition a hard disk with Windows already installed.[/i]”
        Yes, there is. In fact, I wrote [url=http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10877_11-6106234.html][b]an article about resizing partitions with Knoppix[/b][/url].

        edit: Also, you might want to look into running rdesktop on a Linux system to use Windows Remote Desktop, if you want to have an application server of one OS and clients of another. I’m just offering ideas — take them or leave them, as your needs dictate.

        • #2515426

          rdesktop

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to partition resizing . . .

          rdesktop from Linux would be the reverse of what I was thinking of doing. That is, if the box runs Windows so games work, I’d need to connect to a remote Linux box for Thunderbird. (Ideally, I’ll relegate web browsing to the Linux box(es) to make it safer!)

          Thanks for the article link. I’ll take a look.

        • #2515370

          It was only meant as a possible alternative.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to rdesktop

          Of course, you can SSH into a remote Linux or *BSD machine using any of a number of SSH clients on Windows. I’m not entirely sure PuTTY can do anything with X forwarding to run Thunderbird, but with CygWin and an X client installed on the local system, you’d have full access to X applications on the server (as I’m sure you’re already aware).

          I tend to find that it’s easier to get rdesktop working on Linux than any X forwarding solution on MS Windows, but yeah, if you need direct hardware access on a local system with Windows to play a game, then you might want to go to the trouble anyway. As I said, just throwing alternatives out there for consideration.

      • #2515421

        I’d go with VMware on Windows with virtual Linux .

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to Linux from Windows

        And plan to in the next few months.

        Why that way instead of virtual Windows on a physical Linux box? Simply because I’m more comfortable with XP and my existing apps than Linux, and I need to remain productive while learning.

        • #2515415

          Isn’t VMWare Below Both?

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to I’d go with VMware on Windows with virtual Linux .

          I thought the idea of VMWare was that it ran a hypervisor on the system and everything else was a virtual machine. Thus, both Windows and Linux would run in virtual machines on the same box. That doesn’t fit with your (and my earlier) description of running Linux in a virtual machine on Windows. Are there two ways of running VMWare?

        • #2515413

          Dude, you’re posting faster than I can respond!

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Isn’t VMWare Below Both?

          See my “Depends on the VMWare product” response a few branches up the tree.

    • #2517563

      Linux Starts to Find Home on Desktops – Yesterday’s Wall Street Journal

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      .
      Yesterday’s Wall Street Journal had an article talking about desktop Linux showing signs of life (1). Some quotes:

      “…The Linux operating system, having made inroads into corporations’ backroom server computers, is showing hints of inching into a much broader market: employees’ personal computers…”

      “…The much-hyped notion that Linux would be viable software to run desktop and notebook PCs seemed dead on arrival a few years ago. But the idea is showing some new vital signs…”

      “…New licenses for Linux on PCs are growing in emerging markets and financial institutions, markets important for Microsoft….”

      “…market researcher IDC said licenses of both free and purchased versions of Linux software going into PCs world-wide rose 20.8% in 2006 over the previous year and forecast that licenses will increase 30% this year over last. That compares with 10.5% growth in 2004, according to IDC…”

      “…So far, the clearest shift toward desktop Linux is happening in Asia, which “may turn out over time to be a pivotal market for Linux on the [PC] desktop,” Mr. Gillen says. Shipments of Linux for PCs in Asia in 2005 caused a surge in overall Linux licenses that year, he says…”

      There were also a few quotes from Windows stalwarts that did not speak well of Linux. No news there, so I won’t quote those.

      ——————–

      (1) Linux Starts to Find Home on Desktops
      http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117374336173334742-0t8WLwdFNFNhmcynmJ8dS7hIX1g_20070320.html?mod=blogs

    • #2532908

      Okee-dokee, me too!

      by boxfiddler ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Thanks all for the inspiration. I, too am about to embark upon migrating to Linux, and for pretty much the same reasons posted in this thread. Getting pretty sick and tired of Uncle Billy telling me what I can and can’t do with my PC. I will be migrating a laptop that I was simply intending to retire. However, now I will use it to get something resembling comfy with Fedora Core 5.
      Laptop is an HP Pavillion n5470, purchased in 2000. I have begun the process by booting it from the Knoppix LiveCD for purposes of checking to see whether or not all my hardware is recognized. Voila! No probs, so Fedora will be coming on soon.
      I have read in several places (sorry, no URL’s to post) that usually if the hardware is identified with Knoppix, most versions of Linux will do the same. I will keep up with this thread, and post as the process continues!
      Oh – total Linux newbie here – don’t even speak Penguinista so this should be interesting.
      Have fun all!

    • #2532870

      Found this on TechSupportAlert

      by nicknielsen ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      http://www.techsupportalert.com/review-linux-for-windows-users.htm

      Very interesting reading about another Windows user looking at Linux as an alternative to Vista.

      • #2532637

        Most interesting.

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to Found this on TechSupportAlert

        Although I suspect there are some here who will disagree with his assessments of their favorite distributions.

        • #2532613

          They can Diss Windows and MS….

          by now left tr ·

          In reply to Most interesting.

          but willl not here a word against their own flavour / vendor on Linux it seems…perhaps.

        • #2534297

          About that, there are a lot of choices

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Most interesting.

          and I have had varied results on systems as well.
          Fedora 4,5 hung and the screen went blank on my notebook when I setup dual screen. PClinuxOS, I does not recognize the dual screen (or I havent found the setting yet). Mandriva would not install on it, SUSE 10.1 gave me no problems, etc.

          So partially it does revolve around how well a distro works on your current HW, not just how you want to use the OS.

        • #2534203

          Everybody is entitled to an opinion

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Most interesting.

          The person who can’t deal with that in a reasonable manner is the person with the problem. There are times when I want to be able to wave a mouse and POOF all the idiots partaking in the OS flame wars (they are [u]not[/u] discussions!) off the internet and back to DOS 2.0.

        • #2534175

          Have a heart!

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to Everybody is entitled to an opinion

          Give them 2.11 ! TOO cruel to deny them a 5Mb hard drive to save their great thoughts on…

        • #2533497

          But some of them lack the ability anyway

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Have a heart!

          so they should have the comp stripped from them completely.

      • #2532603

        “King William” – love it!

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Found this on TechSupportAlert

        Thanks for this post – hadn’t read this one yet. Love the language used in opening…

      • #2532557

        Sad, just Sad…..

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to Found this on TechSupportAlert

        I find it amazing to so many so called ‘tech’ people illistrated themselves as total idiots when it comes the subject of anything outside of a windows box. And, is it that it is mainly Americans that claim a total lack of knowledge with tech.??? This guy probably still has the clock ‘blinking’ on his VCR. Sad, truely sad. -d

        • #2534308

          Hey, I resemble that remark!

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Sad, just Sad…..

          The clock DOES blink on my VCR, I am just too lazy to change it on my DVD, cable box, VCR, and TV everytime I have a powerout.
          Wait, I take that back. Since I installed the APC UPS on these, only my cable box (not mine) does not have this problem anymore. Which means that my cable box is blinking, not my VCR.

        • #2534300

          Lack of knowledge vs. expectations.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Sad, just Sad…..

          ” … is it that it is mainly Americans that claim a total lack of knowledge with tech.?”

          There’s a cultural expectation in the U.S. that any new device should have been designed so it can be used “intuitively” without any training or new knowledge on the user’s part.

          Part of this expectation is the misuse of “easy”, “intuitive”, “simple”, and other adjectives by marketers that create a false impression of the product, device, operating system, etc. Part of it is some of us are basically lazy and aren’t willing to do the work necessary to learn anything not required after public school graduation.

          Please do not interpret these comments as applying to the writer of the subject article, or as applying to the majority of U.S. information systems professionals.

        • #2534288

          Experience and Importance

          by stew2 ·

          In reply to Sad, just Sad…..

          Why does a person’s limited experience imply idiocy or “a total lack of knowledge with tech?” If a person’s technology career has been insular, then they’ll only know what they’ve studied and experienced. That doesn’t imply an inability to learn more. You might think such a person would have an interest, outside the workplace, to learn more. Some have very busy lives beyond work, so without exposure at work, there is no opportunity to learn more.

          The writer of the article was looking for an experience as straightforward as that of installing a recent version of Windows. That really isn’t asking for too much if desktop Linux wants to supplant Windows.

          As for the blinking clock on a VCR, if the VCR is used only for playing videotapes and not for recording, or the only recording ever done is manual, the clock isn’t needed. If one suffers from frequent power outages, why bother setting what isn’t needed?

        • #2534284

          small problem

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Experience and Importance

          There are a number of technical inaccuracies that make me think the person who wrote this article A) thinks he knows much more than he does, and as a result comes off as an idiot to someone paying attention, or B) is lying. For instance, he mentions a 300MHz Pentium Thinkpad. As late in the Thinkpad line as the P2 Thinkpad 600E (I have one in the other room, in fact), while the graphics adapter would support it, the screen could not handle resolutions above 1024×768. Since he didn’t specify a model number, it’s difficult to check on whether his Thinkpad’s graphics adapter would support greater resolutions, but the two Pentium Thinkpads I’ve encountered in my life both would not support greater than 800×600 — and they were limited by both graphics adapter and screen to that maximum resolution.

          In other parts of the article, he makes other statements that cause me to think he’s not actually using a 300MHz Pentium Thinkpad. For instance, references to a 3D desktop environment seem out of place.

          Someone should have fact-checked this article. It reads like a comedy of (user and/or writer) errors to one who actually knows the subject matter. This is more like Keystone End-Users than a fair and realistic assessment of the state of Linux-based OSes on the desktop.

        • #2534242

          I think he gave up..

          by freebird54 ·

          In reply to small problem

          on the Pentium system without any success, and went to a Dual Core system for the rest of the article.

          It sounded to me as if the results were skewed mainly by the order in which he tried them. Later attempts went better because he had seen the problems before, and had a clue when they showed up again!

          It is possible that there are other Win only users who would look only this superficially, and so miss as many things as he did. I wonder how I would do on a current Mac without a guide? (Lisa has left the building!).

          BTW – the 3D environment is either Compiz or Beryl – and is not QUITE ready for primetime yet. It usually stays up for days now, and fails over to an alternate window manager without losing anything but the eye-candy on exit, but it *IS* still beta (at most).

    • #2527852

      MacOS, Windows XP, and Linux on a fast x86 MacBook

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      .
      Here’s how it can be done…

      When the time comes, this (1) is the kind of MacBook I will likely use (sticking with a ThinkPad running XP for now). Notice how fast it is. The new x86 MacBooks with 2.0+ GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processors are very fast.

      Vista? Who needs Vista?

      —————————–

      (1) Fast OS Switching on MacBook

    • #2538200

      Quicken not so easy

      by aaron ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      To convert Windows to Mac on Quicken you need to export each account file individually and then reassemble in the new OS application. I am the treasurer for a non-profit group and I wanted to use my Mac to serve my term. But if I spend the time to convert I’ll have to spend more time to convert back at the next hand off if they have Windows. Intuit has instructions on their web site.

      • #2538188

        Thanks for your post

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Quicken not so easy

        .
        I was not aware of Quicken conversion difficulties between Windows and Mac. Thanks for posting this.

        Quicken is a pretty simple lightweight program. There is no reason it could not be run well in a Windows VM on a Macintosh or on Linux.

        See here (1) for a great video showing someone running Windows and Linux in VMs on an x86 MacBook. The VM software is called Parallels (2). I don’t have any experience with this program, but I have had great success with Virtual PC on Windows. I have read great things about Parallels and plan to try it.

        ———————–

        (1) MacOS, Windows XP, and Linux on a fast x86 MacBook

        (2) Parallels VM software
        http://www.parallels.com/

    • #2530420

      UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      .
      It has just come to my attention that normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation as reported by this TR peer (1).

      This new information reaffirms my decision to never upgrade to Vista, and to eventually leave Windows entirely. This proves just how effin’ stupid those people in Redmond are. But, I am not surprised by this development at all.

      ——————————————-

      (1) Vista…A mess
      http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=218687&messageID=2215641
      .
      .

      • #2530419

        Yes, I read it and commented.

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation

        What a complete disaster….
        I have not tried it, but I would think that someone else would have found it by now as well. Hmmm. I guess it is a wait and see! But if this poster is correct, then it is a very SAD, SAD, SAD Vista feature.

        • #2530412

          There must be something unusual about what he did…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Yes, I read it and commented.

          .
          There must be something unusual about what he did to trigger Vista WGA de-activation. He said he “…rearranged them, unplugging some and adding others…”. That kind of sequence might be unusual enough that few people have encountered it so far.

          Unusual or not, it is completely unacceptable, and worse than a software change triggering de-activation.

        • #2530405

          Oh, I totally agree!

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to There must be something unusual about what he did…

          It is much worse than a SW deactivation. How many people use different USB devices on a daily basis. If it is tru, this is Sad, Sad, Sad thing that Vista has done.
          I know for me, I use USB devices often, from my phone charging to a couple of printers, a dozen or so SD cards and a couple of flash sticks, wireless devices (kyboard, mouse), Ipaq, just to name a bunch. Luckily I do not worry about Vista, since I am refusing it. But someone like me, that uses lots of USB devices, hey, they could be in for a whole new ball game with MS

    • #2525600

      Trendy, but still unacceptable…

      by makaluch ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Intellectual propert rights is being imposed and pushed through higher courtrooms across the world. This is all part of the downward spiral…sad but true.

      That being said, I could care less. I want my users to be productive. I’d like to be able to progressively modify my network and server systems as we face the challenges of the future. I can’t see this happening under these conditions and restrictions.

      Is 46 Million a day not enough? Is the statement you’re making worth choking your long-time loyal customers? I think not…and I’m done. I will not be moving our company into SharePoint, Live services, Exchange is a hasstle so it’s going away, Vista just isn’t working on 2 of my 55 workstations, and on and on and on…

      I’ve been on the bleeding edge with MS since 3.1 and a new OS release has never been this bad…not even Millenium Edition. I even actively participate in quite a few Beta programs. I did find Home Server to be a refreshing idea with a descent foundation, but I’m most affected by the workstation OS in a business environment, and here Vista is failing miserably.

      I’m sad. I really am. I truly believe that this started with noble intentions, but I’m afraid MS has lost their way. I will also be preparing my environment for a transition that will work, be reliable, flexible, and not cost my company 10% of their margins.

      “I just need some time on my own to think.” I think we’re breaking up. It’s just not working out anymore.

      • #2525589

        wy upgrade now?

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Trendy, but still unacceptable…

        Don’t get me wrong, I am all for more Linux users. I transformed (slowly at first) to were most of my work can be done in Linux, and I rarely boot my Win system at home anymore.
        But to get back to the point, as a business owner/operator, it would make sense to evaluate closely before moving. Here are a few suggestion.
        Stay on XP for some time. Have your IT department look into moving and supporting an alternate office app (such as Star Office). After they have had a chance to learn it better, start moving other groups onto it. Doing this a bit slowly, but not too slow can create a base of knowledge and usage and find out how to do things better. Spread it out and soon everyone will be familiar with it. This can help dramatically with the transition if one is to come.
        Also, start moving people to Firefox or another browser.
        Keep your XP systems until the transition.

    • #2578937

      been there & done that already

      by n4kim ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I started switching to Linux several months ago simply because of MS call home crap! When re-installing on a new computer you had to “convince MS that you were not pirating their damn software!
      Sooooo, Linux here I came.
      The newest Linux is just as good as anything MS has to offer and MORE, it’s free and upgraded just about as well and as much!
      It has become VERY user friendy and drivers are completely as available as XP and better than Vista!
      So MS as far as I am concerned your greediness and anti piracy crap have completely turned me off, lowered the cost of my company’s system and GOT YOU OFF MY BACK!!
      Bye – Bye you greedy bastards!
      Jim

    • #2578849

      Get a Mac!

      by robert graham ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Get a Mac!

      • #2577890

        Leaving Windows: A reality check

        by old timer 8080 ·

        In reply to Get a Mac!

        My last version of MS software is NT 5 ( W2000AS and W2000pro ). My hardware matches, Proliant 3000, ML530 servers. Armada 1750 laptops ( slightly modified to pIII, 500MHz systems ) and Dell Latitude Cp systems.
        My upgrade path: (K)Ubuntu 7.04. 2 MS servers,2 Ubuntu servers. Dual boots of W2000/Ubuntu 7.04 on several laptops, Kubuntu 7.04 on the others. All Interoperable. All run wireless. All have forms of Multimedia running.
        These systems are considered obsolete by MS. Kubuntu has given them new life. Yes, I can play streaming video on the laptops. Yes, I have mp3s distributed to them by the HOME server too. My present project: Implementing the VPN for world wide access.
        LINUX works for me. It might work for you.

    • #2598267

      wkpickett0154@comcast.net asks>ref linux_64 bit

      by wkpickett0154 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      Hello,
      In your leaving Windows Project, you
      mentioned a problem with the 64 bit- have
      you looked at Ubuntu Linux from Canonical?
      I use a AMD Athlon 64 3200 single core, and
      have the Ubuntu X86_64 version… runs
      well, just be careful to not add too many
      items- somehow I corrupted the ability to
      print-and at somepoint will have to install
      a 32 bit browser version and add jre 32 and
      other 32 bit add ins for this- Our 64 bit
      market is still slow for world community
      software developers to get on board, but
      eventually they will have to when there are
      no more 32 bitters…William.

    • #2588981

      Yes, Finally

      by high_lander_1 ·

      In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

      I agree with you and wish you the best of luck. I will be watching and hope to see the progress made. I wish I had more technical knowledge to help. I do have experience in testing and evaluate programs if needed. I have enjoyed Windows OS for sometime. I do believe we should have a choice equal to the Windows OS that all programs can run so we do not need to keep changing the programs we like using or install new hardware with out the OS telling us we have to in order to upgrade or worry if we need to spend more time with a faulty activation process. Plug and play was supposed to be just that, Not Plug and Prey. Its enough making sure the right drivers are used.

      People keep blaming Bill Gates for all the flaws but I believe he never meant for the events with his company to go the way it has gone. He was a kid programmer that wrote code to create an OS that was much more user friendly and easier for people to use. You couldn?t blame someone for wanting success and money, as we all do. I do believe he retired from his company due to age or just maybe he did not like where his company is going. A company that size would be difficult to keep full control over. For all that is truly known Big Brother might have made MS place watchful code, as it is a widely used OS. It also sounds like an old marketing strategy: DON?T READ THIS, DON?T LOOK HERE or NO PEEKING (with a hole in a wall). YOU CAN?T CRACK THIS.

      If or when Linux becomes more widely used it?s almost a guaranty hackers and crackers will start punching holes in that. People exploited holes IE, MS kept plugging them. People switched to Firefox, hackers exploited holes in that.

Viewing 31 reply threads