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  • #2259563

    the joke that is IT….

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    by davioh2001 ·

    Hello, I graduated a year ago with a 4 year it degree. I also go to graduate school for computer science and have 1 year of job experience. I have since found a job at a non IT company doing non IT stuff. It is low skill yet it still pays $16 an hour and is not hard. even basic high school grads can do the job. Anyways, I am looking at jobs out there and am seeing examples such as… Network admin for a community college 4 year degree and 5+ years experience as an admin…experience in about a dozen different technologies relating to Linux…erp…24X7 support etc. All for around $20 an hour. Anyways, Im much too busy working 60 hours a week and going to college to post much anymore. Im just wondering what people thinkg about these types of job postings? I thought the opportunity kinda seems like a joke. They want a lot for a little which is what a lot of employers want and then they only get 33 page views on their job page. questions:
    #1. is this job posting indicative of whats out there for someone with 4 year degree plus 5 years of experience?
    #2. do you think the wages are as much of a joke as I do?
    thats about it…pm me if you can!

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    • #3278301

      Yes I agree

      by jim_p ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I see this myself, some companies expect to hire a person who has vast amount of experience and qualifications behind them, but only pay them base wages, they wonder why they can’t keep I.T. Staff, but it’s obvious that they can’t afford to pay much higher probably due to their budget. You really have to try I suppose to find a job at a large company is well financially setup, but the main part you have to look at is, is it the money you really want the job for. Like you may find a job on $30 an hour but it may be boring or over stressful, unlike a $20 an hour job, might be easy going, people where you work are easy to get along with.
      But there always be someone that will apply for that above job, someone is quite happy on that money considering with their experience. Probably good for someone who wants to wind down a bit and just look after one site instead of multiple sites he/she has been doing for the last 5 years.

      Regards,
      Jim

      • #3207672

        It depends…

        by gsg ·

        In reply to Yes I agree

        On where you live. If you live on the coast or major metropolitan area, then it’s way too little. If you live in the midwest like I do, it’s not so outrageous. For example, a house that costs $100,000 here, will cost $500,000 – $1mil in california. However, for the description given, it’s still not enough.

      • #3207609

        Others may bring in the buck’s but we keep then earning

        by ronald_f_hutcheon ·

        In reply to Yes I agree

        I totally agree. I work in Australia but for an American company and its the same here.
        We have service people that are out fixing machines daily and these guys are on $50 – $60 an hour for getting their hands dirty. They have one resonsability to their own job, I have the resonsability of keeping 75 people, 6 servers and currently 3 sites on the east coast running without so much as a minutes downtime. And after all that I have to put up with their cinstant nagging about why they cant have what ever software on their computers as they want and why they cant use flash bars for what ever reason they want.
        All for $20 hour???? Just not worth it is it…
        Still though, if your as passionate about working with computers as I am (most of the time) then you’ll keep doing I guess.
        Best thing to do?? Go into your server room, shut them all down, and go home.. You’ll soon see how much they need you!

      • #3208713

        Re: Yes I Agree

        by cptmatt ·

        In reply to Yes I agree

        I’d be happy to find a $20 desktop support position. My previous company let me go 3 years ago and no one will let me back in to the IT sector, they all require college degrees. I acquired all of my knowledge by “doing”, usually on my own.
        I was a desktop support guy for 7 years. When I started, you need to mess with interrupts, memory addresses, cylinders, heads, port setting, etc. You had to tell the PC how to do everything but all you needed was to show that you knew what you were talking about and how to do it to get a job. No formal education required, just knowledge.
        Now, everything in WinXP and OSX is automatic. You plug a card in and it works. A hard drive and it automatically formats. Plug in to a network and it finds all the local printers, automatically. But now, when the job is so easy, everyone is requiring a 4 year degree. They don’t care that you have a proven track record of evolving with the technology in both hardware and software. They don’t care that you are enthusiastic because of the technology. No, they just want a piece of paper that proves that you’ve sat through 4 years of theory taught by professors that need help find the “on” switch (I had a temp job at a tech college for awhile).
        Its this blind demand of education with no regard to knowledge or ability that’s making IT a joke.

      • #3215459

        IT churn directly related to budget

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to Yes I agree

        And if the company cannot loosen up the budget to a level closer to dot-com pay rather than Wal*Mart pay, maybe it’s time to shut the doors and call the bankruptcy attorney.

    • #3278235

      Many people have no idea of what IT is worth and

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      advertise what they think – few IT pros or headhunters would have anything to do with making such adds. I remember in mid 2001, people were advertising for IT staff with 2+ years experience with Win 2K advanced server – all they had done was change the OS name from NT – shows how much they understood what they were looking for.

      Most real IT jobs will be able double what you would get as a casual at the local MacDonalds, or higher – depending upon the skills mix wanted. Here in Aust I can get $15 per hour for unskilled casual work, for skilled IT most places I’ve dealt with offer (for permanents) $20 per hour for newbies to answer phones, and $30 per hour (or more) for experienced IT people. You should do better than that in the USA.

      • #3278033

        That is about what it runs

        by j.lupo ·

        In reply to Many people have no idea of what IT is worth and

        The basic range is 18-50 an hour depending on skills, experience, etc.

        The other problem is that job ads are placed by HR or headhunters. These types of people generally know nothing about IT and non-IT companies have very strict budgets with regards to the “cost center that IT is”.

        I have found that if I get past all the HR and recruiters, I generally can work with the manager based on their budget, the real needs, etc. Job hunters have to know what they are worth in order to market themselves. They also need to know what the market can support in their area. Knowing those two things provides a strong foundation when negotiating salary is brought up by the Employer to be.

        As an Employee, never bring up salary first. You will lose in the negotiations.

        • #3278563

          This was exactly

          by emar1000 ·

          In reply to That is about what it runs

          what happend to me when I first started. HR set the salary but I needed the job as well. Since then of course I found a better company that offered a good salary (was no need for negotiations) and I am very happy with them and like wise… well i think so :P. I do them a good job. I feel your pain but it just takes some job hunting on your own as well.

        • #3207070

          Do your research

          by beilstwh ·

          In reply to That is about what it runs

          That is exactly what I did when I applied for my current job. I looked at most of the government and business studys to see what salary was being paid for the position that I was applying for. When my manager asked what I was looking for, I gave him an accurate range of 10000+- that people with my skill set were being paid in the geographical area. I was offered the high end of the 10000 range and I accepted.

      • #3215458

        Most HR-Written ads are hideous

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to Many people have no idea of what IT is worth and

        and the ones by hospitals are the worst.

        Display ads that go on and on about their family of docs and nurses, acreditations, blah blah blah.

        Then they get to the IT position, generally mis-identified, who will report to the director of nursing, the janitor or some such.

    • #3278036

      Try PC Maintenance

      by nyirendamd ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      It is a big joke. If you work 5hrs, you make $100. Big Joke. Try PC maintenance instead. many Private jobs in homes plus a salary

      • #3110392

        PC Maintenance

        by dmon000 ·

        In reply to Try PC Maintenance

        Hi nyiredamd,

        How do you find these private jobs you mention?

        I live near Middletown Ct and the few IT jobs advertised are exactly as described in the post to which you are replying. Thinking about starting a computer service business and forgetting about “a job”.

      • #3110349

        I have a 9 to 5 and a flea market shop

        by rsalazar1 ·

        In reply to Try PC Maintenance

        Al together make my 70K and most of it comes from the fleamarket.

        • #3207623

          Start your own IT business.

          by jk1265732 ·

          In reply to I have a 9 to 5 and a flea market shop

          You can make much more money as outsource IT. Just pick out what you do well or do the jack of all trade’s in computing. It took me about a year or scraping by but if you work hard and are honest you can build up a client base. You will be much more satisfied and you will not have some Jack Ass Boss who does not know what you do over your head. The money is Great!

        • #3206854

          Marketing IT Business

          by dmon000 ·

          In reply to Start your own IT business.

          That is exactly what I am planning on doing, starting my own computer services business based on my 20+ years in the business.

          BIG QUESTION: What is the most effective and least expensive way to promote your business?

        • #3208287

          Keep in mind

          by dr_zinj ·

          In reply to Marketing IT Business

          that 4 out of 5 new businesses go belly up within 5 years.
          You really have to do your market research thoroughly before you start.
          And in most private business ventures, the more you know, the better your chances.

        • #3207433

          Right down the road

          by hillbilly tech ·

          In reply to Start your own IT business.

          I work for a large company in the IT dept. a few hours from you. I do some side work every once in a while to get by, but would like more. Any suggestion jk.

        • #3206843

          Brownsville, texas?

          by laredoflash9 ·

          In reply to I have a 9 to 5 and a flea market shop

          Yeah the flea market. Where people sell on weekends what they stole during the week. 70k huh. Yeah right. I’ve lived on the border (laredo) and it is a real shit hole. That’s ok, I’ll just work till I die. At least it is honorable.

          Rod

      • #3208854

        I do this on the side with varying results.

        by kylegeldmaker ·

        In reply to Try PC Maintenance

        Since the home user world still lives in caves (technologically speaking) I have been able to make quite a bit of money doing home wireless installations, PC repair/maintenance/upgrading, as well as wiring upscale home networks. I try to get 100-150 per hour depending on the job. You can usually tell whay the client will pay based on their computer, home and manner. I had to resort to side work because it is just too expensive to live on what IT pays in Central Florida. I make about 30% more than the average and I don’t think it’s anywhere near where I should be. The problem is, it is very hard to convince your employer that the salary they pay you is not as much as it used to be. Oh well, It will get better….Right?

        • #3215622

          On the Side – How do you find customers

          by dmon000 ·

          In reply to I do this on the side with varying results.

          Sounds like this idea would work well in my area Durham CT. How did you get started finding customers? And how do you keep the ball rolling?

          Thanks,

          Dave M

    • #3278682

      re: joke that is IT

      by mpasaa ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Hello,

      No offense but your lack of experience is one issue. I’ve been in the IT field for over 11 years and have only recently worked up to a decent wage. The fact is too many college grads think they can just step in to an IT job making 60K, 70K, 80K, etc. and that’s just not reality anymore. IT is a little different than many fields. While a degree is nice employers need people who can “get it done” so to speak. You may have read about routers and swithes-but–can you go into a network and configure access-lists, VLANS, and lock down the network while still making it usable? Trust me–reading and doing are too vastly different things and you DO NOT want to lead an employer to think you have the requisite skills when you simply do not. I feel your pain and do agree, to a point, that many people don’t seem to value an IT person’s role and take for granted we keep things running day-in and day-out. My suggestion, if you truly want to look for an IT position–get those certifications especially the Cisco certs up to CCNP and perhaps an MCSA for Microsoft. Without experience those are the next best thing. Couple your studies with some simulators and practice exams that explain concepts rather than just spit out answers and you will succeed. But, don’t think the grass is greener on this side–machines don’t stop working between 9-5 🙂 When you do start making more money you WILL be expected to put in the after-hours and weekend hours work when needed. You don’t really think you can bring down Production systems during the business day do you?
      I’m not trying to hammer you but I see a lot of expectations in your posting and wonder if you might just have slilghtly unrealistic expectations. Until you “pay your dues” like the rest of us currently in IT you really can’t complain about this industry. Sorry if you thought a college degree was your golden ticket but education is just that–education. You get out what you put in and hopefully learn things along the way but don’t expect the golden job to fall in your lap. If it does, ride it until it ends….otherwise plan on busting your butt in this business.

      Good Luck.

      • #3110342

        Spot on, mpasaa

        by michaelt47 ·

        In reply to re: joke that is IT

        Coming into the IT field from a unique route myself, I always advise people to figure out their interests early on and get the ceritifications for that technology. Sure a college education is good, but certifications will get you the opportunities and the money regardless of a degree.

    • #3278642

      the hunt

      by sr10 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      First, I will say that mpassa is right: experience trumps degrees, certs and everything else.

      However, most people hiring for IT positions can’t write a job req to save their lives. They specify every aspect of their current shop as criteria. In the current US market, they saying goes, if the company has ten requirements, the successful candidate will have all twelve.

      The good news for you is that you are working, which means you can be patient. You simply look past the impossibly restrictive criteria and send out to every job you might be a fit for. That’s what your competition is doing.

      Then you follow up with a phone call to the company and find someone to talk to. Ignore the line in the ad that says, “No phone calls, please.” Your competition is doing this, too.

      Eventually, you will hit somebody on an off day, or they’ll have become more desperate for staff than they were when they posted the position, or some such window of opportunity will open, and you’ll get a hearing.

    • #3278638

      The joke that is our education system

      by jp_the_it_guy ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      The problem isn’t so much IT as it is that our education system, and perhaps our society, has deluded you.

      First, there is no easy way to success, unless you did a really good job choosing your parents. The jobs available are a result of the the school you went to, your GPA and your work experience. I saw my friends in college with A to A+ GPA’s get offers fro $60K+ as consultants or highly specialized roles. With a B+ GPA I got offered half that, with good benefits, and was quite pleased to start off as an entry level phone monkey in a technology company.

      In just over 3 years, I had gained experience and skills and was able to take another job at nearly double where I had started. Ten years later, I’m nearly tripled that starting rate and running a fairly sophisticated tech environment. I’ll be able to parlay my current experience into sr. management or director level position in another 2 or so years, if I want to.

      The key to my success, aside from being able to learn any technology very quickly, has been my ability to communicate. Excellent written and verbal communication are vital to rapid promotion. But don’t just take my word for it. The best advice I’ve seen for programmers, and it can easily be translated into other IT positions, is here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/printerFriendly/articles/CollegeAdvice.html.

      Remember college degrees aren’t so much about what you learn, as they are about demonstrating your ability to learn, and your ability to accomplish a goal.

      At the start of your career, you won’t be able to compete with other applicants based upon expertise with specific technologies. What you can compete with is a demonstrated ability to learn, accomplish goals, be self-managing (vital to college success), and the willingness to do what it takes to mature as an employee and continue provide value to the company. Those are all soft skills, but they are what managers look for in entry level positions.

      • #3278486

        in response to JP

        by davioh2001 ·

        In reply to The joke that is our education system

        Jp, your own experiences contradicts the point of my post. The potential employer wants low $20 an hour for a 4 year mis degree, 5+ years of experience in 10+ areas of technology, and 24X7 availability. You yourself said that you were making much more than that after 3 years. I myself indicated I am making $16 for 0 years of education (not counting high school) and 0 years of experience. Therefore, doing the math means that the additional 9 years (4 of college and 5 of experience) in my case would be worth less than 50 cents per year. I don’t think that it is being unreasonable to want more for your education and experience than .50 cents per year. It seems that $25 to $35 an hour would be more reasonable of a wage for everything that employer is seeking.

      • #3207813

        communication

        by not_it_john ·

        In reply to The joke that is our education system

        “Excellent written and verbal communication are vital to rapid promotion. ”
        Right you are! And check out the spelling, grammar, and punctuation in a lot of the posts here!

    • #3110493

      Should be $40

      by andyw360 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      People and companies only find out how much IT is worth when their computers go down and they need them fixed almost immediatley.

      That job offering $20 is very poor, it should be at least $40, keep looking and don’t waste your time on a wage that is not worth the experience and training you have.

      • #3207982

        Why stop at $40?

        by laredoflash9 ·

        In reply to Should be $40

        Why stop at $40? Obviously you are either too high society or have a useless work ethic. Yup just sit there like some toad until someone decides out of the kindness of their heart that they want to pay you hundreds per hour. I’ll take the $20 an hour job thank you. I’ll prove myself in a short while, and after that, I just about own the company…Ahahahaha

        Rod

    • #3110486

      New Grads Expectations…

      by jpr75 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      …are usually high. As a manager at a software company Help Desk, we regularly see new college grads who are expecting 40+K a year right out of school.
      An education is nice, but experience counts. Don’t expect a high salary right out of college. Take that first not so great IT job and get some experience. Then move on to a little better job and get some more experience, and so on. Experience + Education + Certifications. That is the formula for the best jobs in IT today.
      Also, don’t let the job ads that ask you to support a network and know 8 programming languages and 3 server operating systems and be able to fix the company plumbing – all for $8 dollars an hour, throw you. If you see a job ad where you have most of the qualifications, but maybe not all, send your resume in, you never know… (some managers just don’t know how to write job ads)

      • #3207868

        IT is still downsizing

        by buddy extra ·

        In reply to New Grads Expectations…

        Has anyone watched Lou Dobbs lately? The main reason for depressed wages in IT is the result of the H1-B visa program which has just been expanded, and the outsourcing of programming jobs to Asia. It is going to get much worse over the next two years since China is training IT people at an exponential rate. Look for another field of endeavor until the political and economic winds change. IT is going away the same as the steel industry did. If you can secure a government job in IT then your ok, otherwise forget it. Stop whining – you voted the politicians into office -stop deluding yourselves.

    • #3110484

      You need to put your time in

      by mark lefcowitz ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      In our society, the market (when left alone) determines the worth of things. High demand, high cost. Low demand, low cost. A business will always want to pay the lowest possible price for any expenditure. Sometimes they make good decisions; sometimes they make bad decisions.

      Companies will stop paying low wages when: 1) labor skill sets get scarce, or 2) they get burnt several times trying to do it ?on the cheap. Some companies ? or rather, the company executives/managers ? never learn. Or, as an old sales manager once said to me, “What makes this country great? Everyone has the constitutional right top make bad business decisions. That?s why they have bankruptcy court”.

      This includes all of us, as individuals, as well.

      I applaud you completing college, but your expectations are unrealistic. A four year education only proves that you have the persistence to achieve a long-term goal. It does not make you job ready. You have a lot of things to discover about the work place, some good and some bad. A you have to put your time in, like the rest of us.

      I’m afraid you need to be a little more patient, and start learning how the world really works. When you are financially and emotionally ready for it, I’d also suggest that you also consider going back to school to get a Masters degree. A Bachelors degree, by itself, does not make you competitive in a highly competitive world.

      What ever your decisions, your education has only started.

    • #3110472

      Next Generation IT Workers

      by support ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I grew up in aircraft maintenance however after 21 years I did a career change 6 years ago…it’s been interesting to say the least and I?m glad I made the change when I did. First let me say that the job post you describe is pretty typical of colleges and the wages they offer; actually I’ve seen similar jobs at colleges in St Louis area at the $12 – $16 range with the same experience / education requirements. Second, I’m not really sure there ever was an IT shortage that businesses and the media stated a few years ago but rather a shortage of people willing to work in IT at the $11 – $18 range. That now appears to have changed. With the IT industry maturing there are a lot more young people in the workforce who are willing to take lower paying positions.

      I also think that competition between IT recruiting and contract companies may have hurt us in the long run. As the recruiters and contracted support companies compete for business amongst themselves they offer “lower” priced options for their customers. This in turn means they will hire someone at a lower wage to fill that position. My opinion these two changes in the industry is what is changing the wages for IT jobs, especially the typical day-to-day support person. This isn’t a new concept and isn’t unique to IT. When I began my career as a machinist / tool-die maker in 1978 it was one of the higher paid trade jobs. Now it amazes me to see jobs post for $12 – $15 an hour which is about 1/3 of what they were in 1978 if adjusted for inflation. Between machine automation and a larger pool of people willing to work for lower wages it has certainly change the earning potential.

      I guess the bottom line is we will continue to see wages go down for IT positions as long as there are good IT people willing to take them. The good news is as stated in several other posts, with additional experience the wage curve goes up faster then a lot of other industries. And wages for specialized IT experience and good IT supervisors / managers are still commanding pretty good salaries.

    • #3110452

      Hey these companies

      by j.g.camp ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      are banking that if employers don’t pay labor a fairer wage/salary, you’ll have to take what you’re offered. Nevermind the economics of the new millenium are such that a $ 300+ K house requires a down payment of $ 60+ K and that doesn’t even touch what you need to pay off the real estate people. That new car, get what you really want and it’s gonna run you @ least $ 30 K. Employees are supposed to operate @ a deficit so management and CEO’s don’t have to.

      Reagan-Bush economics @ it’s finest. My suggestion, if you can’t get offered better, take what you must, but temper service delivered as “you get what you pay for” ! I don’t go to the car dealership with 1/2 of what they ask for a Mercedes 500 and expect to drive off the lot with it as titled in my name.

      Now adays, the first question I ask is what the payscale is, they’re not bashful about loading the requirements and expectations of any job. $ 20/hour, I can’t encourage anyone to waste my time like that for that level of work. Every now and then I get some recruiter that gets aggressive and tries to put the honus back on me to sign off that I’m qualified and I can deliver product, then wants to atill lowball me. I got just as aggressive back and told them, odd they want me to sign off that I’m qualified and make 1/5 to 1/10 of what the guy who isn’t going to do it gets paid. Nevermind they aren’t qualified to do it themselves. It’s then indicated as an easy job/task they need done. They’ve been looking for someone to sign up for years now. Funny, if it were that easy, why didn’t they knock it out over the weekend and saved themselves that salary and benefits package ?

    • #3110434

      Foreigners and us

      by ike_c ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Part of the problem with salaries is having people come from other countries that will take an IT job at any salary. And I am not talking illegal Mexicans either. Some companies get away with it knowing that whatever they offer it will be 10 times higher than what they are used to back in the middle east.

      One other part of the problem is us, the typical IT person today does not dress well, does not keep a clean environment. We are not presentable. They figure is you look like a slob, work like a slob, you should get paid like a slob. Whether you believe it or not, companies are going back to the mainframe mentality where everything was pristine clean and people did not come to work in dillapilated jeans.

      • #3110391

        Welcome to globalized IT…

        by galt ·

        In reply to Foreigners and us

        You may well be competing in a shop that is also at least partially outsourced–so put yourself in the manager’s shoes: Given the choice of having a worker who is neatly dressed, polite, has two degrees and possibly a doctorate and will work for less than $10 hourly, or some pimply-faced geek with a cert or two, maybe an undergraduate degree, a tongue pin and rings through his eyebrows with his jeans hanging to knees who thinks he is worth $30 an hour, who would you want to look at every day? And even if the competition is located here on a green card, they’ll work for less than most Americans.

        After 25 years in IT, it saddens me to say that most of the people I know who had been RIF’ed or laid off in the last five years, and succeed in getting ANY IT job, are generally working for LESS money than they were… And this problem is not going away–I was lucky, since I survived the RIF and stayed in IT (yes, at less money)–but the company I used to work for has over 50,000 employees, of whom less than 12,000 work inside the continental United States. Look at the numbers–just how loyal do you think these companies with American names are to American workers?

        Finally, if you submit a resume electronically, it is landing in some HR managers inbox along with dozens, maybe even hundreds, of other applicants. Good luck getting your chops examined by anyone looking through that kind of morass.

        As Axl Rose used to scream into the mike…”Welcome to the jungle.”

        • #3207881

          But we still have an edge…

          by skruis ·

          In reply to Welcome to globalized IT…

          What Galt says is true. Foreigners are more efficient, work for less money and have more education to draw from. We are a bloated, under-educated, over paid work force but the simple truth is that everything will balance out and the job’s will come back to the US for a couple of reasons.

          The first reason being that eventually, the foreigners who were willing to take less money will want more. America has been around for a couple hundred years and there have been waves of immigration from every country in the world. Those same people who grabbed those low wages back in the day are the same people whose children are posting on this board complaining about foreign labor. It’s a cycle that will never end yet somehow they’ve all managed to work through it. It’s not a crisis, it’s a cycle and it’s going to continue until the end of time.

          The second reason why everything will balance out is because American’s absolutely hate talking to any other foreigner besides those that speak English. We tolerate the English, Irish, Scottish, etc…at least those whose accents aren’t too thick but we absolutely hate dealing with anyone else. We’re too impatient. I have not talked to a single person who has enjoyed talking with an overseas support specialist or engineer that doesn’t speak the language well. Even if they do speak well, we still don’t like talking to them. Also, try to put into perspective that if you’re talking to those people, you’re already angry because you already have a problem, otherwise, why call technical support or the engineer that wrote/designed whatever you’re using? I bought a pc from Dell, had a hard drive fail which is understandable and acceptable, as an IT person, I understand that it happens, but the thing that rubbed me the wrong way was talking to an Indian person named Steven who was reading a bunch of canned responses and hadn’t taken the proper classes to learn how to express emotion through the English language. This frustration is already growing, it has been for the last few years, and it’s starting to hurt the bottom line because noone wants to deal with non-English speaking foreigners. Companies will recognize this and will adjust as they have in the past.

    • #3110419

      Very much a serious joke

      by j.c.alexandres ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Hi David … I hear ya! Not only they attempt to hire professionals at a very low wage rate, but they also expect you to cover every single IT situation that might arise, including programming, etc.

      Somebody need to wake them up and make them realize Network Administration is not Everything Administration for peanuts.

      Regards,

      J.C.Alexandres
      Network Administrator

      • #3110348

        Bottom-Feeders Looking For Martyrs

        by johnnysacks ·

        In reply to Very much a serious joke

        There’s plenty of companies out there surviving on a continuous revolving door of hires, fires, and resigns of 20 something martyrs.

        You (or even me) may have to take on a job like this for ABSOLUTELY nothing more than the experience required to find a better job or avoid a foreclosure. The trick is convincing the piece of dog excrement of your utter sincerity and dedication knowing you are out of there ASAP at the first opportunity.

    • #3110364

      Where you look vs what you’re worth

      by skruis ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      It all depends on where you look and where you’re looking tells me a lot. If you’re looking on Monster Jobs or other so called hiring sites for an IT position, chances are you don’t have a lot of experience or contacts in the IT industry and you should to take what you can get. They’ll ask for the world and since they know you don’t have much experience and are probably eager to get started, they’ll ask for anything and everything they can get. It’s also a plain and simple fact, but the good old days of specialization are gone my friend. Unless you’re in the fortune 500, you’re gonna have a few shoes to fill since chances are you’re replacing multiple people who lost their jobs in the big one.

      Another thing to consider is that these people want to seem smart and impress people, especially their clients or employers. So when they go and post, they put up something that’s gonna “wow” their client so they get more business in the future. “I need a Linux Admin who can setup cross boundary scripting for XYZ to Microsoft’s premier enterprise server featuring ABC product to deliver and manage premanufactured donuts to the bloated and overweight workforce whose distribution software must be designed and maintained by you” tends to impress non IT people. You and I and other people reading this board can see through this kind of crap and say, “this is crap” and know that either they don’t know what they’re talking about; and incidentally, do you want to work for that kind of person, or they’re trying to snag a know it all self proclaimed IT guru that annoys that heck out of the rest of us and wants to impress us with all of the things he can do.

      After you’ve been on the job a few years and made your so called IT friends and gotten to know the business world a bit better, the jobs will find you and Monster or the other latest and greatest hiring site will be a thing of the past for you.

      Sit tight buddy. Grab what you can, meet lots of girls or guys if that’s your thing and make sure to be nice enough to have them give you their business card.

      Incidentally, if you’re what I call a true IT person, at this time in your career, you’re just eager to get started. You’re hungry and having to support multiple systems and do tons of things is a good thing and you should want to do it because it adds to your experience. Eat what experienced IT people would call crap for a couple of years and then poop it back out on the employer that fed it to you when you leave for the big bucks.

      As you can tell, I’m not a “fan” of the IT “industry” but I am an “fan” of IT. You should be one too 😉

    • #3110353

      they know not of what they speak…

      by laredoflash9 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I know what you mean. Yet, $20 an hour! Here in south texas, that is a wage to kill for. Employers think that if you can turn a screw driver you know all there is to know about technology. Just goes to show their ignorance. Believe me, they are ignorant. Also, get off your money cloud. If you can’t afford to live on $20 an hour, well, good luck. I have a masters, and am a doctoral student with 30 years of computer work under my belt, I make less than $20 an hour working for a university as a tech specialist. Hmm maybe I can make more money after I get my Ph.D. by teaching.
      Rod

    • #3207930

      Re: the joke that is IT….

      by pmosh ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I tend to agree with your point on this. Unfortunately because of the “DOT COM” crash in early 2000-2002, out sourcing and with the push by media ads = a flood of somewhat qualified people. Businesses think that they will get that calliber for little money. Which they probably will. BUT the quality of personel isn’t equal to what they’ve wanted. There are so many qualified people out there that lack one or the other, but also don’t want to sell themselves short either.

      As far as the pay goes. Pay has diffently become a joke. The only way one gets paid what they are worth. Is if they are able to obtain longivity with a company, but starting pay. Heres my take on things. If a company wants quality and hard work. Fork up the anty. Other wise job attrition will be high. People wil lonly stay about 1-2yrs and then move on.

    • #3207926

      You have to start somewhere..

      by arpa ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I have been an IT person since 1983, and was lucky enough to be hired by a smaller company that sponsored much of my education. It led me to another job, which I have held for the past 17 years. I have noticed a trend in many younger people, that they feel they are worth more than the starting salaries offered. My only advice to you is that if you can get your foot in the door, your worth will prove itself within 6-12 months. You might have to accept less than you bargained for, but remember that the employer is also taking a risk by hiring a ‘rookie’ . I myself have hired a few ‘bad’ employees, and wound up working twice as hard to undo the damage.

      • #3207874

        You have to start somewhere – Dead On!

        by brian.m.palombo ·

        In reply to You have to start somewhere..

        You are absolutely correct. Too many individuals just entering the IT market think they are worth so much more than they actually are. As in any career field, you have to start somewhere (usually at the bottom of the pile) and prove yourself. Most of those new to the IT industry and just coming out of college will start in the 40-50K range depending upon the resume skills they can defend in a technical interview. It only takes about a year to prove yourself and then watch your salary grow over the next few years. If you don’t have the skills and are all paper (certified), it’ll show in a flash. If you’re not fast or sharp enough to catch on, you’ll be history in that year. For those without resume experience and think they are God’s gift to the IT community because they have a PC at home that they built on their own, you better get a reality check and get in line with everyone else. If you really are that good, be patient and it’ll pay off in a year or two. Good Luck to all you newbies. The IT industry is a great place to be if you know what you’re doing and enjoy the work. In the long run, it’ll pay major dividends. Just remember, you’ve got to start somewhere!

    • #3207916

      Couple of words from this recent grad

      by bruno fonseca ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Well you graduated College with a degree, good for you, doesn’t mean you know anything, pardon me for being blunt. You have 1 year of job experience, doing what?? Many college grads have too high expectations, which is a society problem now a days. Every kid has to be a winner, every kid deserves a trophy and a pat on the back, and they want to be royaly rewarded right off the bat for doing something great, and unfortunately that is not how the real world works. You have to pay your dues to the elders of the industry. Don’t think you can jump into their spot just because you think you know it all because of your shiny degree.

      I can talk because I am a recent college grad too and found many like yourself in my classes, that basically said, I want to take all these classes, learn as much as I can, so I can get a 40k o 50k job when I get out, and they have no clue what the real world is like. I unfortunately was not lucky enough to have rich parents, so I worked my way through college in the IT field part time in those 14-18 dollar an hour jobs that they advertise for small companies, running all types of OS’s, Servers, basically getting the hands on knowledge that you cannot get at a University. I put in the time answering the phones, working with the outsourcing firms and handling all types of projects outside of IT, like office remodling and all types of other stuff. I put in my time and now out of college I have a great job making almost 50K with great benefits and bankers hours running a network. Yes I am on call 24 x 7, but when you configure your systems properly and get it all running, your 24 x 7 quickly becomes 9-4:30.

      My advice, tough it out, get your experience that you should of gotten during college with internships and part-times, and if you are good at what you do, everything else will follow.

      ALSO VERY IMPORTANT, IF YOU GOT INTO THIS FIELD FOR MONEY, YOU WILL SOON BE OUT. YOU HAVE TO LOVE THIS FIELD TO BE HAPPY, YOU HAVE TO DO THE JOB FOR YOURSELF, NOT FOR A PAYCHECK AT THE END OF THE WEEK. Everyday i get up and I like going to work in the IT field. For as stressful as it is, and with all the junk you have to deal with, you have to love the job to be able to go to it, day in and day out. I thought my professors were preaching when they use to tell me that, but they were right.

    • #3207914

      A joke…. Its Insane

      by josh.ancel ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I have been in this industry for the past 7 years, got a degree and all i see is the wages dropping for this industry. Its startting to really piss me off because the employers are looking at it from this is how much it would cost us to have someone to do it form India or where ever off site. They DO NOT CARE about the HUMAN part of the equation any more. And if they dont start offering good money for the services we provide it will get to the point that any 12 year old script kiddy will be able to hack into any system.

      Ok that was my rant for the day.
      Thanks
      Josh

      • #3207887

        Supply vs demand

        by proftheory ·

        In reply to A joke…. Its Insane

        I am still in scrule working towards my degree and my IT professors say that there is a glut of IT people in some areas. Thus it becomes a case of supply and demand meaning if there are a lot of IT pros in your area the price goes down not up. I would also agree with the posts saying that $20 isn’t so bad while your in training. Which leads to another quote of my IT professor. “This degree is only a starting point, training wheels. The REAL education comes when your out in the real world.” Thats as close to the teacher’s words that I remember.

        Look and see what others in the company are making after 5+ years. It may turn out that you work there for 4+ then go elsewhere to make $30+ and you can say my education has been tested and demonstrated for X no. of years.

        I have seen fellow students who after 3 years still don’t know hexadecimal notation! That is why they offer so little for untested merchandise. The same IT professor has commented that he gets calls from employers complaining that graduates can’t even set up routers with basic configurations.

        7 3

        • #3206839

          router configuration?

          by laredoflash9 ·

          In reply to Supply vs demand

          What!? The default settings don’t work? Oh maaan!

          Rod

    • #3207898

      You’ll notice a trend developing…

      by millh0use ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Reading all of the posts in this thread, you can easily spot the common theme to almost all of the posts from, what I would call, “experienced IT people”. Experience, Experience, Experience. I’ll have to agree that when I left school, I thought I was an IT Superhero. I thought I knew all there was to know about computers and any company would be lucky to have someone of my status. I “settled” for my first IT Job, the dreaded $13/hour Help Desk job. I quickly realized that I knew a total of 0, yes ZERO, about the real IT. The post from Sean a little while ago was dead on…be patient and good things will come. You MUST love doing the work though. If not, IT is not the place for you.

      You, however, have a big decision to make. You say:
      “I have since found a job at a non IT
      company doing non IT stuff. It is low
      skill yet it still pays $16 an hour and is
      not hard. even basic high school grads can
      do the job.”
      The longer you stay at the non-technical job, the longer you will stay an entry-level person, with entry-level skills and pay. If you want to make the pay you feel you are worth, you need to find an IT job to start gathering your experience.

      • #3207870

        The choice is yours

        by it_juggler ·

        In reply to You’ll notice a trend developing…

        Having “been there, done that” myself, I must heartily agree. I rose up to the top of a career in a less technical capacity and had nowhere to go but out. Even staying the same was difficult due to the maturing of the industry; they wanted me out so that they could hire a high-school grad cheaper.

        Now I’m working in IT, which I thoroughly enjoy but the transition was really rough. My first year in IT full-time my income dropped by 60%! If I had chosen a better career to start with I probably would not have faced that choice.

        After 4 years in IT, I now make a little more than my final year in the other career, but there’s still room to grow. There are specialists “out there” bringing in 6-figure incomes in IT while working for someone else. (Ever try to consult with a CCIE?)

        The trick is to figure out what you want to do and then go for it. There are slackers in every industry. Some companies want to hire them for peanuts and deal with the churn but there are always companies looking for stellar employees.

        You need to start somewhere and get a feel for what the daily grind is all about and become a stellar employee even if they don’t “deserve” it. Save up six months of income. Then you can be choosey about what company you want to work for where your hard work will actually pay off.

        Want ads ar for losers. See http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/ for more info. Nick was one of the original Techrepublic gurus and his career advice is the best I’ve ever seen.

        • #3207823

          Good advice

          by kyser soze ·

          In reply to The choice is yours

          I ran my own business for 20 years before moving to computers full time. I get my certs and took any job that would pay me to work within the field. I turned down more money for out of field work because I wanted to stay with networking. It took me 5 years to get back to the pay level I left and left me with a load of debt to repay, but my wife supported me all the way. Now I am happy at work, which means alot when you go home. My advice is to get certs, take jobs in the field, work harder than the next guy, and be prepared to leave the job to advance. I have never advanced within the job, always moved up with a new job. Good luck, keep trying and never give up. Also, be careful who you complain to. It is a sign of weakness best hidden from the suits and your enemies.

    • #3207877

      You forgot to include benefits

      by cutting1 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      $20 an hour is a starting point. Add onto that health benefits, Paid vacation, and all those other little benefits that come with the job. There is also a consideration of retirement that they may match that can possibly transfer to other jobs or an IRA or whatever. Look at the WHOLE picture before complaining about the salary. The biggest consideration is if you enjoy the job. If you find yourself at a job you don’t enjoy, find one!

    • #3207863

      Higher Education

      by fredbrillo ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Lots of job postings look for the world but will take what they get….also…if youre looking for a decent salary, stay away from jobs at higher education institutions. Those traditionally pay much lower than market.

    • #3207852

      Just another piece of office furniture.

      by golfnutzgg ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Most Wages in IT are a Joke. Compare what we have to learn as well as the education required to most other crafts, ie electricians, plumbers, mechanics, nurses and you will come to the same conclusion as I did which is “I am tired of being treated and compensated as a under-valued piece of furniture, mail boy, or a receptionist.” To get the qualifications and experience which most of these company’s are looking for requires 8-10 years of your life which in the corporate world doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. It is the equivalent to “sweat shop labor.”

    • #3207848

      I totally agree!

      by toryg ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I completely agree with you. The IT sector has really gone down hill. I’ve been looking for a new job to get out of the high cost of california, and the only jobs I ever see are super senior level, super entry level and nothing in between. When an average job comes along, they expect WAY too much and want to pay very little. I’ve been working as a Network Admin for 5 years, and in the computer industry for over 15, but I still can’t find a job that wants to compensate for the high requirements they set. Nobody that has a degree and 5+ years of experience is willing to work for $20/hr!

    • #3207818

      Wages ARE a joke

      by jgmsys9 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      And you can thank offshoring for that. Thanks to offshoring, companies think that they can pay anyone anywhere the same wages, which just doesn’t happen here. Until we find a way to cut the cost of living down in this country, those wages will remain a joke.

      • #3207793

        Cost of living aspect

        by gizmoguy ·

        In reply to Wages ARE a joke

        You’ve got good points with the offshoring and cost of living issues. But San Francisco is the #1 most expensive place in the country to live. Now, part of that is because there are enough people making enough money to pay $750,000 for 1200 sq. ft. of living space that the housing market can demand and get that much. It’s supply and demand just as with labor costs. I’ve heard of some companies moving out of the region because of high office leases and employees complaining of housing costs.

        Of course, part of cost-of-living involves choices: cable TV, big-a** SUVs (and their insurance and gas prices), frequent dining out, etc. Think how much you might cut living expenses with a little more discretion.

      • #2473202

        IT is not the only industry to suffer

        by schreck.ryan ·

        In reply to Wages ARE a joke

        My dad is a sales rep in the semiconductor industry and off shoring has really affected the manufacturing sector as well.

    • #3207789

      Govt jobs usually = low pay

      by usbport1 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      What I’ve seen locally where I live (mid-Atlantic region) are jobs just like the one you mention for city schools and colleges or city governments and paying between $24,000 & $32,000 a year. To add insult-to-injury they want a Bachelor or Master degree, MCSE, A+, CCNP, etc. along with 8 – 10 years experience as a Network Admin. With the cost of housing and transportation being what it is, these people probably never keep anyone for long even if they do ever hire someone because I see the same jobs advertised over and over again every couple of months. Just stay away from local, state, and federal government IT jobs and you should be able to find a decent paying IT job making way more.

    • #3207788

      Joke that is IT mis-hiring.

      by techratinc ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I’ve been in IT for 15yrs both corporate and consulting. Often the same jobs that ask for all this experience, dont require that you use it. When I interviewed for the job that I currently have, they quizzed me on subnetting and a bunch of lesser known networking stuff. None of it do I actually ever use. And during the interviews I was running neck and neck with another candidate on experience. I got the job because Im ex-military like the guy who hired me.

    • #3207785

      Expectations May be Misdirected

      by rumblebuffin ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      If I understand correctly, you are frustrated by a salary of about $3500 a month when you are one year out of school. That ‘s about the median average income for the average American family if I trust my local newspaper. That’s not all that unreasonable for an unseasoned employee by my count. (And it’s about double what I made with my IT degree coming out of school a few years back.) But there are several factors to consider:

      1. Locale. Where you live influences wages based on area averages.

      2. Higher Ed – you are likely applying to an hourly job governed by the state and with restrictive salary standards. The positive in this is that your liklihood of overtime, abusive expectations, travel requirements, and other things is minimal, so you aren’t necessarily selling your soul as you do for the top-line starting positions.

      3. Experience. Degrees don’t tend to count that much after the initial honeymoon, neither does what you are working on, only what you have accomplished.

      4. HARD is not why IT specialists tend to get better salaries, it’s supply and demand. If HARD jobs got the good salaries, then farmers, MOTHERS, high-rise construction workers, and ditch diggers would be some of the best paid folks in the country! It’s all supply and demand. Perhaps your local economy has a good supply of competitors? Welcome to the realities of a market -driven economy.

      5. Suggesting that the wages are a joke suggests the feeling of entitlement, as if someone owes you something. Best to lose that false perception now and learn how to market yourself and your skills – no one owes you anything despite what you may have been lead to believe, so start from the position of selling your services to the best bidder and you’ll eventually do much better than hanging on to the expectations.

      I’m sure you can find a better paying position with a bit of work, you are on the right track for a reasonable career salary, but you may find it isn’t worth the cost to your personal life. Those high $ jobs aren’t all they are cracked up to be – been there, done that, and now I’m enjoying a reasonable work load for less potential. Worth considering the trade-offs. No one ever expected to get wealthy at a state job – taxpayers don’t like it.

      R

    • #3207744

      Ignore the starting Pay.

      by beilstwh ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      When I got out of college, I started a programming job for $4.00 an hour (30 years ago). Within a year, I was making twice that and my wages (with a couple of job changes) continued up at a steady pace. Ignore the starting wage, consider it a probationary wage until they can see what you are capable of.

      • #3207695

        Diverse Problems

        by jailbreak_pt ·

        In reply to Ignore the starting Pay.

        Hi all

        In that value we have many issues.

        First, there are too many IT professionals that will work with that value and must of them are not so good IT professionals. But the company look for the very good, for the very cheap. In most cases they gate cheat works but can?t do the job.

        Second, too many IT professionals want to make big bucks. Don?t want to work many hours and don?t want many problems. But wants to earn lots of money.

        Third, not so many newbie?s wants to earn lots of many in is first years of work. Don?t want to wait until they have a career.

        So this value depends on so many factors that we can?t say that is cheat.

        Here in my country that is a high value. I make about 20? an hour in my salary with a 10 years of experience. This is a high value for our economy. But if I will work for paying for hour, I will make about 50? an hour.

    • #3207722

      IT as a joke.

      by seckel109 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Welcome to the new regime man. The corporations are in complete control, the government just pays lip service to the general populace. And that’s only during an election year. We as the most productive work force in the world have been sold out by our elected offals to the corporation(s). However that is what the people wanted when they put this regime in power. And, that is exactly what the people deserve. Got a problem with that? Either bend over or move somewhere on the Pac Rim.

      • #3208932

        Lets try to stay on topic

        by dumbterminal ·

        In reply to IT as a joke.

        And/or make sense while you are at it. 🙂

    • #3207673

      Community College pay

      by fkasner ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I worked at a CC for quite a while. But then again I had a Ph.D. in Chemistry and they wanted me for the prestige of being able to say that they had some Ph.D.’s as opposed to mostly faculty with M.S. degrees. They pay fairly well in big cities but very poorly in small cities and rural areas. Consider that they are now in the big cities are filling faculty posts with grad students at local universities at considerably less money than they used to pay full time faculty. They are just trying to run those places on the cheap and they have been getting cheaper all along. Recently checked on the CC I worked at and they haven’t got one full timer or Ph.D. faculty in the chem program at all. Note this was a big city CC.
      FK

      • #3206852

        CCs are a mess

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Community College pay

        They typically pay WAY under market value and have very little in the way to good opporunities to build yourself…

        Try for a gov’t job (www.usajobs.com) or try to get into other IT

    • #3207640

      some kinda joke wage

      by jackintheback ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      My dad complaines if working for 30 cents a day cleaning horse corrals in the way early 50’s. So it was no big deal to get $3.50 per hour in high school.
      I understand that there are companies that the media portrays as marble floors and gold toilets
      with pure oxygen delivered at a consistent 70 degree temperature.
      everyone has their expectations but it just seems to frazzle me when I discover a haircut for a woman costs more than I can afford to pay a professional laborer for one hour.
      (not that I can afford either)

    • #3207621

      It’s All About Bargaining

      by firstpeter ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Okay, it’s not ALL about bargaining, but that certainly does play a big part of it. If negotiation is part of the process you’ll always want to start somewhat lower than you’re willing to pay (and job seekers will want to start higher than they’re willing to accept) and work your way up from there as you get something in return from the prospective employee.

      Is it possible to go too far – absolutely, in the case of folks I see who want Oracle DBAs for $15/hour. Will they get any takers? Maybe a couple, but probably not of the caliber they were expecting. Same thing on the flip side – if you say I’m expecting a salary of $100K as a help desk analyst you’re going to lose a lot of opportunities.

      Personally I prefer the straight-up approach – here’s the job, here’s what I’ll pay, here’s what I want in return, now let’s not waste each other’s time. But apparently that doesn’t work with some folks who enjoy the chase as much as the hire…

    • #3206802

      It’s not the wage, its a whole lot more.

      by frijols ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I can totally understand you. But I think this is a general problem in todays working society.

      Best would be:
      – 25 years old
      – 3 Years experience in a foreign county
      – 3 foreign languages
      – No family, No kids
      – Master Degree
      – willing to work for >20$..(here in Europe even less)

      Its rediculous and how can you have all of that at once?? I have seriousy read something familiar, not that exagerated, but almost. And bear in mind, that here in Germany, no body finishes their Master before 29!
      I sometimes feel like its the seniors and HR who have absoluty no Idea of todays requirements and due to that, overdue the job descriptions! So I’d you are right: It’s a complete joke.

    • #3206776

      It’s all about supply and demand…

      by steve.marshall ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      … The glory days of some 20 years ago, people who were IT literate (Understanding Valve systems and punch cards) where exceptionally well paid as they were few and far between…

      In the coming years the demand for IT from Corporations and the perception that it is one of the highest paid industries to be in has been the main downfall of inflated salaries.

      Match that with the displayed incompetance of your “newly qualified” IT guru who comes to an organisation bearing MCSE, CCNA, CCIE without the first fogiest idea how to supernet a network(Obviously being very generalistic, no offence to the skilled newly qualified) and you instantly devalue the industry, managers see that they are getting highly qualified people approaching them with the business sence and technical aptitude of a dead lemming so subsequent job posts reflect that. If IT managers are getting CV’s listing every technology under the sun from graduates for a helpdesk position why shouldn’t they expect more for less ?

      The world is full of budding IT employees, there are 1000’s of applicants with a scary number of abreviations after their name willing to get low level roles to get the nescessary experience to move forward.

      What I have witnessed in recent years in Europe at least is the growth of PM’s or Consultant type adverts, this deliberate seperation appears to be a method of parting the wheat from the chaff and pays (from my experience) exactly what people should be expecting on this board.

      Although there now seems to be a growth in newly qualified Prince2 graduates demonstrating the same wet behind the ears experience common to your average CCNA holder a poor PM will soon and quickly identified and removed. Also, the term of “Trial periods” seems to be increasing again, acting as a safety net to eradicate the complete incompetant that appears to be so prevelant in IT these days.

      Unfortunately many still try the “Blind with science” approach and hope that they can confuse their peers enough to justify their own existence without actually bringing any benefit to the table, their days are numbered as more people are aware of the basics in todays IT literate world.

      There is now more demand for skilled laborer’s (Again in my experience in Europe) than IT professionals, but this gap is quickly being filled by our Eastern European friends.

      There remains a defiant blockade from invasion by the other 2 areas of historicaly highly paid arenas, those being Legal and Accountancy, I wonder however if their days will be numbered when the youth of today target a different profession to meet their salary goals for the future.

      To summarise, don’t blame industry for seeking low paid, highly skilled employees, blame the 1000’s of other candidates willing to take anything…

      And if your seeking the pay of the higher echelons, then I suggest you ensure you have the experience, both technically and worldly to demand it.

    • #3206766

      done

      by emar1000 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      .

    • #3206707

      Colleges are not the same as fortune 500

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      But for working on campus, that is an accurate wage, if you are THE MAN/WOMAN that is to blame for everything.

      Many campuses have gotten bitten because they can hire students for a third of that, but then if there is ever a problem it is major.

      The most money to be made in computers is computer training. They have quite a SCHEME of funneling all the new students into Cisco and MS degrees telling them “there is a lot of money to be made in that field!”. If there is so much easy money to be made, why isn’t the placement person selling that pipe dream in that field themselves?

      That is also why there is such a glut of unqualified techs out there. a class can not replace experience.

      • #3206699

        That’s a great point

        by j.lupo ·

        In reply to Colleges are not the same as fortune 500

        Education and classes (even hands on classes) can only shape a foundation. The experience of working for a company helps mold that foundation and expand it to how things REALLY work.

        I still have a strong belief in using education to build a foundation of knowledge; however, the experience is what makes that knowledge useful.

      • #3207567

        But it can give you a base…

        by skruis ·

        In reply to Colleges are not the same as fortune 500

        It’s true. Classes do not equal experience. I myself was enrolled in one of those “live your dream” classes and got a few certs (A+, Net+, MCP, MCSA, etc) through it. Before I took those classes, I thought I knew everything. I could put together a computer without reading a manual, fix simple problems, whatever. When I got into that class, reality struck and I knew then that I knew nothing that mattered in the field. When I finished, well, I didn’t finished, I got a job and quit the class, I thought I knew it all then also…just like a typical college grad. I could put a computer together, take it apart and reinstall an OS, sure…but now I, like many others, have gotten to a point where when there’s a h/w issue, or sometimes a s/w issue with a workstation, I call a junior tech, me in my former days, and have him fix it because the stupid thing is under warranty by his employer. Now, my time costs too much to be doing that kind of stuff.

        I’m not going to brag but I am one of a small percentage of American’s who “get” IT. Who have a natural understanding of how these things work. Almost none of the students enrolled in the classes I took had this “gift”. Some people can play the piano, some can paint, some can fix cars, some can design airplanes…I could understand a computer and the network to which it belonged. It was a sad thing to see. All of these people who bought into the hype that they could make tons of money and I so much wanted to tell these people that it just wouldn’t happen for them. I’m a smart person but when I look at a car, I see a mess of automation at it’s worst, not a highly technical sometimes efficient machine. It’s just not my thing and no matter how hard I may try, I’ll never understand them as well those people with that kind of gift. Most of the people who take these classes are just not following the right paths for their life…they’re not using their own “gifts”.

        So to expand on your point JD, colleges and classes are not the same as experience, but for the “right” people like most of the ones on this board, they can be extremely valuable and can provide an excellent base to start from.

        • #3207494

          Currently attending classes

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to But it can give you a base…

          But I work in the field, and can apply what I am told in the class room to the real world. I also am in the postition of often knowing as much or more than the given instructor because of experience in that field. I have had to correct them POLITELY a few times when they say something that is incorrect.

          Why is this? Many instructors have never had a real job in their lives. They took classes, and then turned around to pass that same knowledge on to someone else, having never applied it in a business situation.

          I HAVE gotten quite a bit out of the classes, but that is because I WAS working in the field and needed to know more. I then went to increase my knowledge of a subject, not to chase dollar signs.

        • #3207477

          Continuing education

          by skruis ·

          In reply to Currently attending classes

          Didn’t mean to offend or challenge you JD, just trying to convey the idea that for some people, it’s good to get your feet wet in an educational institute prior to diving head first into the job. Everyone’s different.

        • #3207359

          Instructors should work or have worked in industry IHMO

          by jamesmgarvin ·

          In reply to Currently attending classes

          I’ve worked in industry and now I teach. I feel that I am a far more effective teacher than many of my professors in school. Why? I can apply what I’m saying to relevant situations.

          On that note: I find myself in an interesting position. I’m working on a PhD, teaching, and have a good idea of how industry works. However, in education there is ivory tower and reality. It is VERY hard to work towards a PhD without ivory tower thinking, and I find myself losing my edge on reality….There has to be a better way…

    • #3206639

      I agree

      by hueydr ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I worked as a Federal Civil Service Network Engineer for the Delaware Army National Guard making $34.50 an hour. Now that I’m retired and looking for a job, everyone wants at least a 4 year degree. Civil service didn’t require a 4 year degree or a Microsoft Cert. to be the network engineer. I was one of five people that built the network from the ground up and over the years made improvements from a 10 meg hub workgroup to a 10/100 switched managed network with 18 sites thru out the state. We did all of our own cabling in our buildings using fiber and CAT 5 cable.
      With all of this experience, I still can not fine a job in the IT field that pays. If you don’t have a 4 year degree, just get lost, they won’t even return phone calls.

    • #3206638

      building

      by sprinkl3s ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      i’m 21 years of age, no degree, and no certs. i got my first real job in IT a little over a year ago, i was making 13 an hour there. then after about 7 months there i moved to a new company making 17 an hour. just proving that a degree doesn’t grant you instantaneous movement up the pay scale. i’m working on some certs now so i can move further up the ladder and i will continue gaining experience in the field. i got the jobs i have because i demonstrated that i was capable of performing the jobs and demonstrated my willingness to learn and use what i learn to benefit the company. like so many other post on here you have to put in your time if you want to go anywhere. and where i’m at 17 an hour is a livable salary. just to stress it one more time EXPERIENCE MATTERS…

    • #3206556

      Welcome to reality…You check is in the mail

      by maevinn ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I’m working 2 IT positions because I had to move, and my previous employer hasn’t been able to fill my job. So, working remotely for them, and working full time in the office at my new location. Why? Because we couldn’t find anyone qualified to replace me. Interviewed 8 people, all qualified on paper, but only 1 of which turned out to have the technical skills portrayed on the resume (and she ended up turning the job down when her current employer offered her more money to stay with them).

      Experience counts for more than the degree. It’s a tough fact, but deal with it. Be willing to move, and decide for yourself–do you want a career in IT, or just a paycheck?

    • #3207513

      First step get INTO IT

      by techietim ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      1. I dont think that is indicative of whats out there, I just see those ads and laugh and keep clicking!
      2. Yea, I think the wages are a jok sometimes too. Here’s my story if it helps:
      I’ve been working in IT for 2 years now and make 40k which and have my MCP plus 2 yr degree. This is about 10k lower than I could get in my area from what I can tell my adds.
      I think the add you mentioned is crazy low but dont let that scare you! Just start doing anything you can in IT and start somewhere. Then you’ve got the experience to get better salary’s down the road.

    • #3207408

      Job postings? Seems more like a joke.

      by the_real_whiz ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      I just wanted to say, don’t give int to these so-called job posting, they are no more than a joke. I was also looking for an IT job. I gave up looking, for now. I also have other training, such as a mechanic (diesel, gas and turbine as well as Hydraulics), it pays $25.00 $48.00, well it sure a difference compared to that $20 an hour an IT job. Yes, the trainging for the mechanic also took 4 years and OJT.

      • #3207382

        awesome point whiz!

        by davioh2001 ·

        In reply to Job postings? Seems more like a joke.

        I was just about to make the comparison you just did. How many electricians, mechanics, plumbers etc. would there be if they wanted a 4 year degree plus 5 years of training in all kinds of different ares (e.g. must know diesels, gas engines, locomotive engines, etc.) will start at $20 an hour!… You get the idea thats why I came up with this post… Other “lesser” careers actually pay much much better

    • #3207361

      One more India job on-shore

      by ph.d.student ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      Title says it all! Work cheep and provide substandard service.

    • #3208726

      DOT BOMB will never Die!

      by d.ron0 ·

      In reply to the joke that is IT….

      How about $57,000.00 in training and was making over $80,000.00 as a WAN ENGINEER(Cisco and Nortel)in 2001 until the Bomb. Now I am lucky to find $10.00 an hour.
      I now have a CISSP and a CISA. But no Degree. Guess What, I am now over Qualified and over the HILL at 54! But if I want to drive three hours each way and work for $25.00 or $30.00 they will hire me without benefits so they can save money. IT is a big joke and the security is a hackers dream, just ask the jokes in DC who are drivng down our wages!

      • #3215657

        Age Discrimination

        by netexcel ·

        In reply to DOT BOMB will never Die!

        I also feel that discrimination towards people over 40 exists in IT. After all they can pay some youngster half what you will ask. And companies don’t care about quality any more. Said but true.

        • #3215455

          Age Discrimination

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Age Discrimination

          Dring the dot-com era the line was 35. Younger you got the sign-on bonus, company Porshe, etc.

          Older, and you were just grabbing at straws. Why the flock I even tried, I’ll never know.

      • #3202227

        Yes, IT as we knew it is gone!

        by rmacys ·

        In reply to DOT BOMB will never Die!

        This has been happening for years and eventually will end up no different than any other skilled-trade. Gone are the days of big money and unlimited budgets. People who are not looking for a job on sites like Dice and Monster are the people that are luckily being handed jobs. Most of us out here know that isnt reality in the job market now.

        I’ve been in IT for 14 years and in just about every position from the bottom of the barrel to Senior Network Engineer. When I moved from NYC in 2002 to Florida, my pay rate was cut in half. I still pay almost the same in rent, utilities, etc.. but make half of what I did. I am now again a Senior Admin with only my manager over me and we have 6 offices in the US all over the SE and over 500 employees. I still am earning 10k-15k less than I should be. So, they pretty much get sub-standard work out of me. If they paid me more maybe this salary guy would be much less apt to hit the door at 6 and work on some projects. Just like a post I saw earlier, you get what you pay for. I know companies dont value their IT dept like they used to. They just dont understand that without us their business may as well not exist. Id like to see any salesman or marketing dork do their job these days without the latest toys that management gives them like they are giving out pens or something.

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