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Trying to start a new career

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by elliot baird

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I left the Army 3 months ago and retrained in IT. I passed my A+, Net+, MCSE W2K and my CCNA all in 8 weeks. It was hard work but I thought it would be worth it. The only thing is I dont have much real experience. I have applied for over 100 jobs across the UK but haven't even had an interview as yet. How do I get experience? How can I get an interview? How can I show an employer that I can do the job?

Any advice for someone trying to start a new career?

31 replies

by james r linn

To build up experience and contacts.

It will be hard to get a permanent position with only certifications. But someone might take you on for a short term, and you can then prove yourself.

You could also look for non-profits who could use some "free" help - it could help boost your resume. Most charities can't afford enough IT help and have some projects waiting. You give them some labour and they will give you a reference.

Good luck.

James

by lordinfidel

How did you get all of those certs in 8 weeks?

(don't take this the wrong way)
Either your a flippin genius or you went to boot camps.

If I was an employer, and I saw all of those certs but no experience, I would seriously doubt your abilities.

What I would do, is remove all of the certs except for the A+ from your resume and apply for the entry level job.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt and Assuming that you are a flippin genius, when you get to the interview or land a job they will be able to tell that you are knoweldgeable and will give you a chance.

I'm more apt to hire someone with no experience who has their A+ then one who has their MCSE/CCNA. After all, I did not pursue my MCSE until a year after I was in IT, and then it took me 4 months to pass my exams. My CCNA and RHCE was after my MCSE and each of those took almost 6 months each of studying.

by elliot baird

I went on a training course which was not a boot camp, it used the official teaching guides from Microsoft and Cisco. I also read every book a could get. I put a lot of hard work into getting through my exams.

If you are wondering if I used braindumps, I looked at one for AD Design, wish I hadn't I almost failed that exam.

Do you think it would work removing most of the certs from my CV?

by lordinfidel

I would'nt look at you. I'm just being honest.

In my mind, I can not see someone with no experience getting all of those certs within an 8 week period without some sort of coaching.

I don't doubt that you put hard work into it. But would I hire you as a network engineer responsibible for the security and routing for my network. Hell no.

So yes, remove the certs except the A+. I can gurantee that the IT director is very leery when he sees all of those certs and no experience.

(this is just my opinion) I'm personally leery of all(most) schools. There are few I would actually attend. The ones I would consider/plan on going to is vendor specific schools where you need to go to it in order to learn the info (ie. Checkpoint's certs and the CCIE which I would be going to just to be around my peers so that we can help each other pass the exam. The CCIE is an intensive hands on exam that is extremely difficult to pass without attending some sort of "camp".

But I would never go to a school to let's say get my MCSE or CCNA. Those should be certs that you go for when you have already been in the field and know the principles behind each one.

by elliot baird

Thanks for being honest. I know that I don't have the same knowledge that a lot of people taking the exams have. I did feel that the exams were too easy to pass without having any real hands on experience. I found most of the information was in thebooks then I used the time on the course to put it all into practice.

I will take your advice and see if it makes any difference. Thanks.

by apache5056

Yes, I have my A+ and some history in the IT field at a local bank (took a part-time summer job to fill in for those on vacation) and still don't have anything coming in except the 'Postion has be filled by a more qualified person' letters. It has been a little over a year and no job on the horizon so I have gone back to school to make myself a more valued qualified person. I understand the enconmy is bad but is it really?

by lordinfidel

What positions were you applying for?

Obviosly Server Operator, netwk eng and admin positions would not be viable.

Were you applying for entry level positions?

Most Mid level positions will take more then just the A+. The cert will/should just get you in the front door for tech support/help desk.

I'm only speculating to the positions you were applying for.

With his scenario, he has too many certs with no experience. When people like me see that we get turned off and don't bother looking further.

Experience goes a long way. I don't want to mislead anyone when I say that by just putting the A+ on there that you will get a job at 50k yr. But you should be able to land the 20-25k yr entry level tech support job.

by apache5056

Yes, I have applied for entry level, help desk, IT grunt, and a few others that I don't qualify for (hoping they might have something else open or opening in the near future). I seem to get more calls for interviews for the 'Others' than anything else. I just don't see to many entry level positions open up in my area.

I have gone back to a local university for a MCSA cert. I will add the MCSE at a later date. I will be looking at a CCNA cert from the recommendation of a good friend that is an admin for a large web company based in Canada.

I have been around for some time and understand money or the lack of.. :-) I know I would not qualify for a 50K a year postion and would be perfectly content with 30-35k a year. If I wanted to get rich, I'd buy lottery tickets but there again... it takes luck...haha!

by ghstinshll

You have to start out at the low end, regardless of your experience, pay your dues, use benefits to further your career (tuition reimbursement or training) and then push on and up.

You need to be methodical and plan this out with small steps slowly taking you in the right direction. When you're in that position, you can't wait for it to happen like some of us have seen others do in their careers.

by rich in pa

"...and still don't have anything coming in except the 'Postion has be filled by a more qualified person' letters."

They actually sent you a letter? Maybe I should send my resumes to your town. Here in Richmond, Va we don't get those.

by maxwell edison

I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all to have the training with no experience. It’s certainly better than no training and no experience. At least there’s a basis from which to build. After all, that happens all the time when people get out of college with one or more impressive degrees. In addition, the person posting the question has Army experience in his past, and the military always trains and “certifies”, so to speak, before putting that person into the practical application of that training. (They’re trained for a particular MOS before they apply that training.)

I’m a proponent of NOT leaving pertinent details off a resume. We frown on the practice of misrepresenting one’s qualifications and/or experience by exaggerating on a resume, so leaving off applicable information would be just as misleading. Personally, I think that by getting the certifications as described indicates that the person not only shows initiative, but that he also has a well-rounded, albeit general, knowledge of the subject, and has a unique ability to learn new things quickly and thoroughly. We all know that education only starts at graduation, and that learning – especially in this industry – is a life-long process. Why should this circumstance be any different?

Here’s an example of how the issue could be addressed:

Career Objective:
I am seeking a position where I can apply the principles I learned while earning mycertifications, and I would like to do so in a way that’s immediately helpful to (the company name) by bringing a positive work ethic, a willingness to follow directions, and a knack for solving problems. Understanding that training and certifications are not as effective without the practical experience to compliment such training, I would prefer a subordinate position under someone with the practical experience necessa

by maxwell edison

(Reposted because it was cut off.)

Career Objective:
I am seeking a position where I can apply the principles I learned while earning my certifications, and I would like to do so in a way that’s immediately helpful to (the company name) bybringing a positive work ethic, a willingness to follow directions, and a knack for solving problems. Understanding that training and certifications are not as effective without the practical experience to compliment such training, I would prefer a subordinate position under someone with the practical experience necessary to complete my understanding of the technology.

----------

Take what you have and use it to your advantage – but better yet, showcase it in a way that could be advantageous to a potential employer. I further think that if the certifications are omitted, a person could be setting himself up for future problems. For example, what if he is assigned under a person who doesn’t have the certifications –or worse yet, failed in many attempts to get them – and the certifications later become common knowledge? Honesty is always the best policy, and failure to reveal something as pertinent and important as certifications could certainly be considered dishonest (by some). Look at every job application from the perspective of a potential employer, and almost any questions you may have concerning what to do/not to do, what to say/not to say, and what to reveal/not to reveal will become very clear.

(continued...)

by maxwell edison

To specifically answer your questions:

How do I get experience?

You do have experience. You have experience being dedicated, dependable and on time. You have experience learning new things – quickly and thoroughly. You have experience following instructions. Etc. Emphasize what you do have, not what you don’t have. But do it in a way that shows how that experience (what you do have) could be beneficial to any employer.

How can I get an interview?

By showing how you stand out from the rest of the applicants. What can you “uniquely” bring to the company that all other applicants can’t? (Hint: See second paragraph of my answer.)

How can I show an employer that I can do the job?

By showing that employer that you were able to do any job you’ve ever had – and in a way that was beneficial to your employers.

I wish you the best of luck. (By the way, luck only happens when preparedness meets opportunity.)

Maxwell

by lordinfidel

If it goes thru HR first, maybe.

If it goes into my hands and I see a whole bunch of certs without experience, I am not going to look at it. Because the first thing that will poop in my head is boot camps/coached. It's just reality.

You can get into the morals of it and misrepresenting yourself by leaving off the certs. But I think that it is hurting him more then helping.

If you were an IT mgr and had your MCSE and just got your CCNA, would you hire someone who had more certs than you with no experience. Probably not.

I beleive that in this instance he should downplay his certs, let it be known that he has them once he is in the interview and has already established him self as technically proficient.

He is an an awkward position. It's the typical damned if you do damned if you don't.

by ghstinshll

As a manager, isn't it you duty to scrutinize every detail of a person's past and experience? This guy just gave himself to our country for X amt of years, has come out swinging and gotten those certifications, and is ready for an entry-level position. The abilities from military and certs should at least get him interviews...

by ghstinshll

This scenario definitely lends itself toward your perticular SNAFU, and shows some character in how you're aware of your situation and want to get the exeprience wagon rolling....

by admin

this actually came up yesterday, and I would have to say that after talking to another admin about a local individual with lot's of cert's but no experience that we would hire someone that can demonstrate skill first and then help them get their certs in most cases. To go a long ways into certification without experience in this field right now just looks bad. It's not really the person's fault that they weren't scrapping a major home network together and volunteering at LAN gatherings or volunteering at a church setting up print shares or something. It's not their fault that they didn't socially network naturally in the course of these sorts of activities and get hired on somewhere in their free time. They were probably way busy passing tests, and there was a lot of hiring going on in this field when they started so people were saying to get into this field. I understand this, and I would still hire someone for their integrity, military ex. etc. rather than for certs if they were a good fit so your "career objective" piece is well taken :) I would be more wary though.

To me it's kinda like deciding to hire a race car driver because they have extensively studied the science of racing. Why weren't they just racing if they loveit?

To be really frank, it's also often harder to "untrain" someone to then start training them on your system than to start from scratch, or worse, have them not listen and make mistakes that cost your team productivity while they slowly learn on their own. I'm in no way saying that this individual would be like this, I'm just saying this is a fear many people have and am trying to do a favor for them by not covering it and getting it out in the open. This is what they face, and they will have to compensate for it IMO by emphasizing things besides certs in the hiring process.

by weinsteinrv

Yes, experience is certainly important. And, it's even more important when trying to land a job. But, you have something most job-seekers don't have: military experience. My feeling is you're failing to market youself, which is a major mistake. If you applied for 100 jobs, you're doing something wrong. Are you taking your military experience and using it as a selling vehicle? I bet you're not. Companies want hard-working employees with strong work ethics. The military drums that in from day one. What about the work you did and the projects accomplished. What about the results you achieved. Somehow I doubt if you drove all that home. My point here is that I'd bet you haven't sold yourself. And, it begins with a great resume that drives home the value of the military experience. So, don't hesitate to speak up for yourself. This is not the time for modesty.
Bob Weintein

by james r linn

I wish I could remember the name but once upon a time I was in a conference hotel, and one of the companies also having a conference at the same time was a consulting firm which was basically all ex- US Military, doing computer consulting and project management. They certainly valued the experience that the military gives.

One of our team leaders is a Sgt. in the militia(Canadian, part-time armed forces) and I think its certainly shown in his approach and his leadership qualities.

James

by elliot baird

Cheers for all the advice, I will keep trying I will get a job sometime. Hopefully it is sooner rather than later.

by maxwell edison

Elliot,

If you need or want someone to discuss what may come up in your job search, feel free to email me. I hire people for our company, and I have a lot of experience in interviews, resumes, etc - but on the other side of the table than you're sitting.

Best of luck,

maxwell_t_edison@yahoo.com

by help desk analyst

You should have better luck in the UK than in the USA.

So far its so flooded here with tech workers I have been out of work for 8 months. Even when I was working I had Z+ and MCSE still come to me for help and this is only my hobby!

Better start taking that computer of your apart every now and then so your skills dont get rusty.

Good Luck!

by ghstinshll

Running your own Win2k domain at home on a DSL line, hosting your own website, own Active Directory, own DNS server, and own mail server are a big help in the experience category.

It's not enterprise experience, but valuable...

by ghstinshll

"luck only happens when preparedness meets opportunity"

This is so true. I practiced interviewing for over three years with my first tech employer, and never wanted to leave badly enough to jump out of town (mortgages tend to hold you down too inthat case), and when my company closed, I was more than prepared for my current (great) position.

by admin

Elliot,

I don't really know the UK, but this is what I would do. I would get all the information I could about employers in your area, newspaper, online info, stock info etc. and find who is doing financially well and may be in a position to hire. I would also start making as many friends at computer shops, any computer related conferences or other social gatherings as I could.
While I was doing this I would sign up at a temp service or two and tell them you would are seeking a technical position, but will accept whatever you can find. Almost every business does tech at some level or knows someone and once get a history with people that shows you are reliable, honest, hardworking etc. you will be thought of when someone either has a job or knows someone that does. Personally I would not immediately reveal my certs, but let that unfold in time. I would however reveal my interest and skill level as much as possible.

Best of Luck to You! :)

by elliot baird

I have a job to start on Sunday, hurray!!

Thanks to everybody for their advice. It is only a 3 month contract to start but could be extended. I will be working on a network upgrade from NT4 to 2000. I need to move for the job but it is worth it.

Good luck to every one still looking for work.

by ghstinshll

start a new string in here, and link to this one, and tell us about your job....

My reccommendation is to pick up a couple upgrade books and read away to make sure that you "master your 'domain' " in this case and use it as a stepping stone. Keep building exerience and asking the right questions along the way that will help you move along and up as you go.

Good job!

by ghstinshll

start a new string in here, and link to this one, and tell us about your job....

My reccommendation is to pick up a couple upgrade books and read away to make sure that you "master your 'domain' " in this case and use it as a stepping stone. Keep building exerience and asking the right questions along the way that will help you move along and up as you go.

Good job!

by gutchwh

Use your training and buy a domain name to build a site that demonstrates what you have learned. Then pass out the URL to your prospective employers, etc and track their attempts at browsing your site. Call them after they visit to ask what they liked and didn't like. Can you do this with just a little bit of effort? (And not too much money?)

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