tsunami

I was thinking of a topic to post about this too but it really leaves even me at a loss for words.

I was talking to a friend the other day who had JUST made it back from Thailand one day before it hit. He was pretty shocked to see just how close it really was. Such devastationis just a reminder that the most powerful force on the planet is the planet itself. It certainly humbles what we see as powerful and lets us understand what little power we actually have in the world.

I have deep heartfelt sympathy for these poor families who were already living in a fairly flimsy world that had their entire lives turned upside down and loved ones taken form them so tragically. I actually thought of you and Colin right away and how such a massive force didn't have any effect on Australia. From what I remember, the northwest corner of Australia is primarily just outback and not heavily populated, but I was still amazed there were no similar events there.

They have been collecting donations around town at various stores and the school is having a fundraiser to try and send SOME supportive donations to those in need, it seems so miniscule when you look at the size of the area and how many families have been effected.

But I suppose everyone chipping in SOMETHING will help, or at least it will show the people who have suffered that it is a concern of everyone in the world, not just southern Asia.

I don't think anything can be said to hep people in such situations, there was no poor planning, no mistake made, it's just nature's way.

I don't know what more I can do to help, though I would if possible, a monetary donation seems so trivial in such situations.

We are planning a benefit to be held in Camden, UK in the beginning of February, 100% of ticket, refreshment and t-shirt sales will be donated!

The manufacturers, crews and vendors are all offering thier products and or services at no cost.

SE members have agreed to donate the majority of the priofts from their latest DVD sales also, monetary help seems so trivial though.

I discussed flying there with a friend to see where we can help (why no,t I have the time) but we were advised against it as being there now is not a great help due to the amount of chaos going on, more people just means more chaos, more mouths to feed etc.

My heart goes out to all those effected around the world, I just don't know what else I can do or say to help at this point though.

The 1964 Alaska earthquake caused a massive tsunami that destroyed most of Port Alberni, it is a big awareness in the island as we also sit on a plate. The last earthquake sent a tsunami all the way to Japan yet did less damage right off the coast of the island where the quake occured.
It could be us next time, I want to show the rest of the world exactly what I would hope for from them in the same situation.

God bless those who were effected by this most tragic event, let us all work together to give these people the hope and strength needed to recover.

There's really very little to say. Everyone is saying the same things, many only superficial platitudes because we really can't understand the enormity of this terrible tragedy.

We see the news broadcasts every night, but does it really sink in? I think Oz Media got it right when he said everyone is still just too stunned, too numb to take it all in. I know I am.

Yes, I've contributed, twice so far, but what's money? The help that's needed RIGHT NOW is of a more practical kind -- medicines to stop outbreaks of disease, food and clean water to feed the thousands of survivors, temporary shelter to house them. This is what they need FIRST.

How many people fully realise that this calamity is going to takes years to really come to grips with? Once the above needs are dealt with, then come the secondary ones, such as coming to terms with the loss, with those who will never come back, with the dreadful, terrible task of identifying those thousands of bodies before it's too late.

After that will come the re-building of a shattered province, of all the surrounding areas that shared in this untimely evidence of nature's wrath.

And what of those who no longer have anywhere to go? Those subsistent farmers whose land now lies permanently many feet underwater? What of them?

Not only the terrible trauma of this tragedy will follow them for the rest of their lives, but they will also need to be relocated -- of necessity -- in order to begin again, and this will be just as traumatic, in many ways, as the original disaster.

What else can I say? I too wish I could be there, to do something a little more practical than just giving a donation or two, although I know that eventually my donations will go towards re-establishing those worst effected by this horror.

But too many cooks spoil the broth, as we say, and while the relief teams are no doubt run off their feet, they are also the experts and we must leave them to it. Slow and steady also wins the race, which we must always try to remember even while we are subjected to a nightly reminder of what nature is capable of while this long, long process of starting again goes on.

In the meantime, try reaching out to strangers, to people you wouldn't normally even look at in the street. Say hello, or at least smile at them, but most of all, let them know you care.

It shouldn't take terrible disasters like this to bring the world together, to unite us all. It should be the normal, everyday thing to always be willing to reach out a hand in friendship and say "Hi".

I know what you mean. I kept checking the new threads to see if someone would post something on the topic. I don't know what to say myself.

One thing that got me the other day was when I was talking to an old friend and her mother over the New Year. I asked her mom what she thought of this disaster and she was clueless that anything had happened at all.

Now at first you would think DUH!!! How could you not know, it's all over the news. She had actually stopped watching the news and getting the newspaper some time ago, due to all the constant mudslinging and BS over the war and elections.

She is pretty much shut-in at home due to illness so she isn't out and about much. She relies on the TV for current news but also suffers from depression and just couldn't stand watching the news at it just made things worse for her.

Although this case may seem different than most, it most definitely isn't different for many.

How many other people have been so disgusted by the news that they simply aren't aware when such atrocities happen?

What other issues may also be completely missed by increasing numbers of the population just because media money has destroyed a once trusted medium?

Will we actually begin to not trust ANY news one day?

Not to start a segue, just thoughts.

You were deemed a terrorist for reading Aljazeera news? That doesn't make any sense at all. Typical attitude though, from those folks (you know who I mean). Nuff said. There are many different versions of the Aljazeera site. All contains the same basic info, but it is organized in different fashions in order to promote the interest of the targetted audience. This is perhaps the only bias. There is no "propaganda" at all. It is one of my most respected, unbiased, unfiltered, and informative sites regarding the situation in the Middle East, the Gaza Strip, and even international issues in general. The news organization does not judge or persuade... they "report". Period.

I had heard rumours about the CRTC's acceptance of the news station. I'm glad we can separate the facts from the racism. Then again, I may already be brainwashed. LOL.

If you are into alternative news, CounterPunch rules. A large part of the site is comprised of "proper" essay style arguments, but it is not without it's "anti-pop-news" and "anti-cencorship" opinions. The article should be read with a grain of salt. Still a massive amount of information though.

As far as FOX is concerned, well... if you tune into FOX for the news, enjoy your "episodes" and "stories". I'd rather read about bat-boy and the 500 pound newborn baby. :)

Over the past 12 months or so, I have encountered quite a number of people who have stopped watching the news because it is mostly bad news.

I check out the online Sydney Morning Herald once or twice a day, mainly in search of stories that might be appropriate for my website.

I also watch a half-hour TV news program late in the evening -- the ABC's Dateline preferably (but it has taken a break). This is a particularly good program because it features live, real-time interviews with the people who are making the news, qualified current affairs analysts, and journalists who are reporting directly from the scene.

I just look at tsunami and I feel nothing. It is just too horrendous to absorb.

I am pleased that so many people from various countries are so keen to donate money, or provide services on site if appropriate.

I am very proud of my country. A few days ago the people of Australia were donating money at the rate of $AU 75,000 an hour. Per capita we are the second highest donators in the world.

3,000 members of the medical profession have offered to go to the scene. They are "straining at the leash" in their keenness to give some of the help that is most needed.

I spoke to some friends this morning who had booked a trip to Thailand prior to tsunami. Although they will not be going anywhere near the disaster area, they were encouraged NOT to cancel their trip as Thailand needs the revenue provided by tourism.

of apologising to me.

Whilst we now know that Fox News is just a propaganda machine for the Bush administration, I really get tired of people at this website always making snide remarks about the media.

Putting aside Fox News (the most watched news service in the USA) everybody gets their day-to-day news from the media, because that is the only place where the most recent news can be found.

If certain people think the media is too biased to be worth watching/listening to/reading, then would they kindly inform me how they know what is going on in the world?

Naturally they know what is going on because they DO follow the media. They should be grateful to the individuals and organisations who do produce the news, otherwise they can remain blissfully ignorant, and good riddance to them.

As the only qualified journalist who participates in these discussions, I KNOW how impossible it is to get precise reporting without the luxury of time to do background research and check sources.

Naturally after being made the scapegoat for certain people's never ending bitch about the media, for two years now, I am just about sick of it.

So I say to these people, either admit that you know what is going on in the world BECAUSE of the media, or go start your own news service and see if you can do better.

Sorry Oz, these remarks were of course not directed at you. I am just sick and tired of certain people's double standards. They get their news from the media, and then proceed to say the media is too biased to be worth taking notice of.

Well everyone I wil be Sri Lanka to help with the recover effort starting on Saturday.

I have spent time in that area of the world. It is always a tradegy to have the loss of human life.

Although one has to wonder about the magnitude of this event and the region targeted. Sri Lanka has been war torn for many decades with many bloody battles. Phuket's economy is run by prostitution. Most of the affected region is also Islamic and I wonder why the Islamic community has not been very responsive? And why has the United Nations not stepped up?

One group I am familiar with that is helping with the relief effort is Samaritan's Purse. They have helped people throughout the world who needed disaster relief. Their web page is http://www.samaritanspurse.org/home.asp

My younger brother was backpacking alone over Xmas, and was at the South end of Phuket when the Tsunami struck. Thankfully, he made it out of there unscathed and returned to the UK on New Years Day. He was sat on the beach eating breakfast, marvelling at the size of the big wave on the horizon. Once he realised it was coming right in, he alerted people sleeping in nearby beach huts and ran to his hut. I couldn't believe that he actually stopped and packed his rucksack. Just as he exited, the first wave hit and came through the floor. He scrambled up a nearby hill and waited. Those few days (26th - 29th) while we were waiting for some communication were some of the longest of my life.

The Christian Science Monitor reports that: "An unprecedented $163 million in US private donations for tsunami relief is driven by media coverage and the Web."

http://csmonitor.com/2005/0105/p01s03-ussc.html

However before you Yanks get too carried away, that amounts to just over 50 cents per capita.

At my last check, Australian private donations were $4 per capita, and one European country (Sweden I think) was giving $7 per capita.

Australia has been at the forefront of the relief programs, initially providing 4 large transport aircraft to ferry food, medicine, blankets etc. We have also provided several helicopters and a naval vessel is on its way.

As mentioned in an earlier posting, 3,000 members of the medical profession in Australia have volunteered to go to the disaster area.

I will post more precise details later if I can find the time.

You decide to distrust the UN AND anything Islamic therefore you will CHOOSE to discount anything said about or by these people.

That is your own narrow mind that simply sees darkness instead of shades of grey.

The UN is the ring leader regarding the relief efforts. The US and pretty much every single country on the globe has shown support and are working under the giudance of the UN.

I suppose in your mind, Canada has done nothing either, everyone else is just riding on US coattails as you rectify the world's issues?

Like I said, give your head another shake, your pessimistic outlook on the rest of the world trumps any negative opinions I have ever had towards your great furor and your mighty nation's government.

Your self-righteous attitude completely supports my comments about who your nation still has people who believe the world ungratefully looks to America for thier every need and how America is the world's provider.

I thought the earth was on the condemned properties list because it had to be removed for a star-route by-pass or clover leaf.

Maureen

The fact of the early warning of two hours where obviously certain people decided not to issue the warning out of fear of ruining the tourism, the media's nonstop showing of dead children to get ratings, or Bush really dropping the ball on relief where our celebrities have generated more money than our own country?

1. we didnt need to see pictures of dead children, they could have mentioned it, absolutley shamless and they should be ashamed of themselves as well as the companies for not demanding that not be shown.

2. Not evacuating was the highest atrocity, which isnt getting any mention. Isnt it ironic that they kept their mouth shut to avoid any tourism backlash? Shame on them and they should be sentenced.

3. Can Bush make 1 good decision? Common sense tells you we need to do alot more than pony up 150 mil, wait how bout 350 mil? (ahahahaha, I love this edit button)How utterly embarrassing, I guess he is focusing on his Inaugural ball a bit much. Oh yeah I'll get my idiot brother to assist in this matter so he can get some face time. A governor to handle the greatest natural disaster in how many years? Yeah he did real good on the hurricanes, made a speech and stayed far enough from harms way, what a joke.

There is a popular Buddhist saying in Sri Lanka: "Life is no more than a dew drop balancing on the end of a blade of grass." How true the events of December 26th have shown this to be; how precarious the balance of human life can be.

C'mon I'm not gonna try and kid anyone here -- of course the US gov't is motivated by more than just "compassion" by donating hundreds of millions and sending in thousands of marines and other folks to help the relief effort.

I think every government at least partially has some of this thinking going on when they decide to help out in a tragedy.

My son is only six and I think a good portion of the humor flies over his head, but for the most part, he's been very entertained. I think he'd enjoy the radio version. Thanks!

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The only reason I posted that was to illustrate how a constant "complainer" is doing nothing but sitting on his hands doing nothing but griping. (You haven't been griping, so it was aimed at only one person.)

I wouldn't expect everyone to contribute, as they, like you, have personal issues that take priority.

If people would just quit complaining about what others may or may not do, and instead "do" things themselves, a lot more could get accomplished. You know, something about being "in the arena". I'm pretty much fed up with people who only sit in the stands yelling obscenities at those who are really in the game.

I agree with all you said..the only thing is I don't put much stock in per capita comparisons for things like this at all. I just think its not a good indicator of anything really. I mean to go on how much per capita a country donates to a cause does that really tell us anything? I mean the economy of the country, the other contributions the country makes to other causes, (sad to admit this one but here it goes) the hundreds of billions a country spends on a on-going mostly pointless war, etc.

If the US were to say ok if AU is donating $7 per capita, we need to donate $8 per capita to be "bigger donators per capita" then they are..that would be about $2.4 BILLION, which call me insane or whatever I don't think the gov't should spend that much on the relief effort.

There are a few thousand US Marines over there helping out however they can, plus other US aid workers helping to distribute both food and water.

I don't know what else to say, I mean its a horrible horrible thing that happened and I feel intensely bad for the victims.

I also don't know what else is expected of the US with this...we are sending hundreds of millions both privately and by the government, we are sending military troops for helping out, we have US relief/disaster type organizations over there to help.

I mean seriously what WOULD be enough? Should we rebuild all the destroyed buildings? It was a natural disaster not our doing.

is matching donations, and the Canadian Government is matching our combined donation.

So for every dollar I give, it will double twice, or for every dollar I give, four will reach the victims.

I just got a small bonus - it all goes to relief.

James

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You said, "Although we can analyze and point a scientific finger to the cause of global 'warming'......"

No we can't. It's 100 percent pure speculation.

You said, "....it is, in fact, the Earth's reaction to our negligence and poor pollution management."

No, it is not. And there is absolutely no substantiated proof to support such an assertion. Absolutely none.

Pollution is to global warming as one of Oz's farts is to the gaseous atmosphere on Venus. Although both have their own element of unpleasantness, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Pollution is one issue. (In fact, it's one of my pet-peeve issues.) But "man-caused global warming" is the biggest con-job in the history of the world. And again, although both have their own element of unpleasantness, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

You might as well claim that our atmosphere is turning into Strawberry Jell-O. The "man-caused" global warming claim is just as ridiculous. But you know what? It will continue to live on because of the number of people who will never admit that they've been duped -- and because of the number of dollars being spent to "study" it. In the end, the "global warming" scam is being perpetrated for two reasons. One is to exercise control over industry and the population in general. And the other is to make some people rich -- you know, follow the money.

Is the Earth experiencing an increase in average temperature? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It has fluctuated one way or the other over the millennia, and maybe it's fluctuating again. But to suggest that humans are causing it is utter nonsense. And if it is fluctuating again, just like the earthquakes and tsunamis, there's not a dang thing we can do about it.

I know, I know. I'm in about the 10 percent minority by holding onto this opinion. But at one time, 90 percent of the population believed the scientists who claimed the Earth was flat.

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(Or maybe that should be butt.)

This is not a generosity contest.....BUT.....I'M WINNING THE CONTEST. Is that what I'm reading in your message?

And if, as you say, "figures should be given relative to the population of each country", then how does the military presence and contributions in the region compare? How many Australian military personnel are there, relative to Australia's population; and how many US military personnel are there, relative to America's population? And the same question concerning military hardware being used?

In all seriousness, Julian, I absolutely commend the Australians for their outpouring of support. But please, don't cheapen the effort other people are making just because you (and others) think they should do more.

Just don't be going out for beers and luncheons when you could have sent $20.00 overseas, YES $20.00 helps a LOT, if everyone does it.

Hey we don't al have money and I just happened to luck out in my case and after a few drinks said F-it, give it to the relief fund.

I could have used it too, I am not Richie Rich by any means, but I will get by still.

Feed our family, pay your rent,take care of your loved ones. If you have it, help. If you don't have much perhaps offer less but it still helps. If you just can't spare it, nothing more can be expected of you, you have to do what you can, not what others are doing.

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I'll tell you what, I'll match it for you. I'll donate another $500 on your behalf.

As far as me never criticizing President Bush, there are plenty of areas in which he and I disagree. For example, I'm staunchly against the death penalty. I simply can't comprehend how he (or anyone else for that matter) can presume to take the life that was given by God. There are viable alternatives to the death penalty, and it's a barbaric form of punishment.

I was against his support of adding prescription drug benefits to the already over-used and over-abused Medicare system.

Although I support the actions taken in Iraq, I think he could have done a much better job explaining the reasons to the American public. However, knowing that there are a lot of "behind the scenes" considerations that simply can't be shared with the public, I do give him a pass on that one.

I think he should have ruthlessly criticized the United Nations leadership for the oil-for-food debacle. He sat there and just took all that criticism from the UN himself, but when it became painfully obvious that it was the UN leadership that was "on the take", accepting bribes and kick-backs from Saddam Hussein, he should have put his "diplomacy" on the shelf and literally demanded justice. He's turning a blind-eye to the worst corruption scandal in the history of the world, and he's not doing a damn thing about it. And especially as a lame-duck president, he has absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain -- a more effective and honest United Nations.

I could go on, but I won't.

I don't support President Bush because I agree with everything he does or simply blindly follow him, but rather because, on balance, his policy agendas are more in-line with my beliefs than any other alternative.

But in the case of the relief and help to the tsunami victims, there's nothing there to criticize. It's simply a non-issue. And anyone who does criticize President Bush in particular, or America in general, is simply looking for reasons to do so. They're creating something where nothing exists.

As far as how far heads may or may not be shoved into various "places", mine's held pretty high. I try to never compromise my core values, I take full responsibility for myself and my family, I strive to not be a burden on anyone or blame anyone else for my various life's situations, and I reach out and offer a helping hand whenever possible, whether it's killing myself on a 12 mile hike with the scout troop, helping a fledgling computer enthusiast over a hump, or sending a few bucks to those in need.

So no, my head's not up anybody's ass.

Apparently results of the recent UN tsunami summit have the UN asking where the money is?

Countries and corporations have said they are allocating all this cash to the relief effort, yet very little has atually materialized in the area as promised for relief efforts. The UN has asked that all of these proposals actually materialize in the form of the said monetary relief.

I would rather see money actually exchange hands and actually get to the area than have a discussion as to who is suposedly allocating what.

It seems a lot of promises have been made but little is actually turning up as promised by the various governments and organizations.

If global warming is pure nonsense, then how come President Bush tried to cover it up at least once back in September, 2003? If it is such a nonsense, he wouldn't undermine scientists' research, specially from the government itself, right?

From the The Observer:

White House officials have undermined their own government scientists' research into climate change to play down the impact of global warming, an investigation by The Observer can reveal.
The disclosure will anger environment campaigners who claim that efforts to cut greenhouse gas emissions are being sabotaged because of President George W. Bush's links to the oil industry.

Emails and internal government documents obtained by The Observer show that officials have sought to edit or remove research warning that the problem is serious. They have enlisted the help of conservative lobby groups funded by the oil industry to attack US government scientists if they produce work seen as accepting too readily that pollution is an issue.

Central to the revelations of double dealing is the discovery of an email sent to Phil Cooney, chief of staff at the White House Council on Environmental Quality, by Myron Ebell, a director of the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI). The CEI is an ultra-conservative lobby group that has received more than $1 million in donations since 1998 from the oil giant Exxon, which sells Esso petrol in Britain.

The email, dated 3 June 2002, reveals how White House officials wanted the CEI's help to play down the impact of a report last summer by the government's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), in which the US admitted for the first time that humans are contributing to global warming. 'Thanks for calling and asking for our help,' Ebell tells Cooney.

The email discusses possible tactics for playing down the report and getting rid of EPA officials, including its then head, Christine Whitman. 'It seems to me that the folks at the EPA are the obvious fall guys and we would only hope that the fall guy (or gal) should be as high up as possible,' Ebell wrote in the email. 'Perhaps tomorrow we will call for Whitman to be fired,' he added.

The CEI is suing another government climate research body that produced evidence for global warming. The revelation of the email's contents has prompted demands for an investigation to see if the White House and CEI are co-ordinating the legal attack.

'This email indicates a secret initiative by the administration to invite and orchestrate a lawsuit against itself seeking to discredit an official US government report on global warming dangers,' said Richard Blumenthal, attorney general of Connecticut, who has written to the White House asking for an inquiry.

The allegation was denied by White House officials and the CEI. 'It is absurd. We do not have a sweetheart relationship with the White House,' said Chris Horner, a lawyer and senior fellow of CEI.

However, environmentalists say the email fits a pattern of collusion between the Bush administration and conservative groups funded by the oil industry, who lobby against efforts to control carbon dioxide emissions, the main cause of global warming.

When Bush first came to power he withdrew the US - the world's biggest source of greenhouse gases - from the Kyoto treaty, which requires nations to limit their emissions.

Both Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are former oil executives; National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice was a director of the oil firm Chevron, and Commerce Secretary Donald Evans once headed an oil and gas exploration company.

'It all fits together,' said Kert Davies of Greenpeace. 'It shows that there is an effort to undermine good science. It all just smells like the oil industry. They are doing everything to allow the US to remain the world's biggest polluter.'

Other confidential documents obtained by The Observer detail White House efforts to suppress research that shows the world's climate is warming. A four-page internal EPA memo reveals that Bush's staff insisted on major amendments to the climate change section of an environmental survey of the US, published last June. One alteration indicated 'that no further changes may be made'.

The memo discusses ways of dealing with the White House editing, and warns that the section 'no longer accurately represents scientific consensus on climate change'.

Some of the changes include deleting a summary that stated: 'Climate change has global consequences for human health and the environment.' Sections on the ecological effects of global warming and its impact on human health were removed. So were several sentences calling for further research on climate change.

A temperature record covering 1,000 years was also deleted, prompting the EPA memo to note: 'Emphasis is given to a recent, limited analysis [which] supports the administration's favoured message.'

White House officials added numerous qualifying words such as 'potentially' and 'may', leading the EPA to complain: 'Uncertainty is inserted where there is essentially none.'

The paper then analyses what the EPA should do about the amendments and whether they should be published at all. The options range from accepting the alterations to trying to discuss them with the White House.

When the report was finally published, however, the EPA had removed the entire global warming section to avoid including information that was not scientifically credible.

Former EPA climate policy adviser Jeremy Symons said morale at the agency had been devastated by the administration's tactics. He painted a picture of scientists afraid to conduct research for fear of angering their White House paymasters. 'They do good research,' he said. 'But they feel that they have a boss who does not want them to do it. And if they do it right, then they will get hit or their work will be buried.'

Symons left the EPA in April 2001 and now works for the National Wildlife Federation as head of its climate change programme. The Bush administration's attitude was clear from the beginning, he said, and a lot of people were working to ensure that the President did nothing to address global warming.

Source:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1046363,00.html

Max, first and foremost I agree that just because someone isn't infront of a camera, it doesn't mean they aren't acting behind the scenes.

On the other hand, it is possible that Clinton felt it was his duty to speak to 'the people' on such matters and inform them of America's concern toward others or even to explain where tax dollars are being spent. Yes I know it is a real generalization but in many cases I am sure it rings true.

Bush has never really been a person who seems too private or wishes to stay out of the media. Based on any summits etc that were televised, including his embarrassing visit to Canada, he is in a constant game of oneupmanship to gain the camera's view. So it seems out of character for him to not quickly address the nation in such horrible times as this.

I think if anything it would have been a courtesy.

Perhaps he was looking for mroe details or plannign what he would do from his position, hopefully not a hasty decision. Perhaps it is the same as when he took all that time to finish th egrade school kids story on 9/11 in which he may not be able to act properly in such situations and needs time togather himself.

Either way, no shot at Bush form me (SURPRISE!!)but also I wouldn't see it fit to compare his actions to Clinton's (although you did so as an example due to the preceding post).

One thing I didn't mind about it, HE WASN'T ALL OVER MY TV ABOUT AGAIN!!! I certainly am not complaining about his inability to quickly address the nation, but think that perhaps they are just two diferet people with different ways of reacting to such issues, I wouldn't say one was better than the other though. :D

Just replace Canada or England in any of those statements and they have the same effect, Max.

I have heard it towadr Canada not joining in Iraq, then it was Canada takes from the US and just survives on handouts, then it was England didn't do this and France didn't do that. But in all honesty, ALL of these countries participate where and when they feel it's best, just as America does. Sometimes being credited but usually not, just like America.

Your not the only ones, I guess that's my point. You may notice it more because you see it as other countries being against you, just like we do in Canada. Same sh*t different pile.

The USA is NOT giving as much aid as some other countries, either in terms of personal donations or government input.

Despite those who would try and debunk it, per capita donations are obviously indicative of the generosity of the general populace in various countries, because in this instance the top contributors are all from affluent countries.

And in terms of total Government input -- has any other country yet matched Australia's promise of $AU one billion (say $US 700,000,000)?

And to think that some galah would make this totally stupid and offensive remark:

"BUT (*smirk*) per capita our country can beat up your country."

What this discussion is revealing, among other things, is the insularity of the American people in general. But of course you are unaware of that, because you are brainwashed from childhood to believe that you are the greatest country and the greatest people in the world, and this attitude is continuously fortified by your (for the most part) very US-biased and sanitized media.

When I first joined TR two years ago, I had NO adverse feelings or thoughts about either America or Americans.

But some of you people have taught me well.

Collectively you sicken me.

Read this, and then stop beating your own, pathetic drum.

The Prime Minister's $1 billion assistance plan for Indonesia has drawn praise from even the most trenchant critics of the Federal Government's aid effort.

The contribution, which more than doubles Australia's existing aid to Indonesia, includes an unprecedented partnership scheme that will involve equal and direct co-ordination by senior ministers of both governments over at least the next five years.

The $1 billion in assistance over that period will cover current emergency military, medical and civilian aid as well as budget for hundreds of millions of dollars to be spent on reconstruction and scholarship programs to train engineers, health professionals and administrators.

Half of the aid money will finance interest-free loans for big infrastructure rebuilding projects. The loans will be for up to 40 years, with repayments not required for 10 years.

In an initiative to underpin a bipartisan approach, the aid scheme will be overseen by a joint commission with both countries' leaderships having an equal say on priorities.
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The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, said last night the new approach was preferable to merely handing $1 billion to "someone else".

The Prime Minister, John Howard, said the partnership reflected "the increasingly close relationship" between Australia and Indonesia.
The Prime Minister's $1 billion assistance plan for Indonesia has drawn praise from even the most trenchant critics of the Federal Government's aid effort.

The contribution, which more than doubles Australia's existing aid to Indonesia, includes an unprecedented partnership scheme that will involve equal and direct co-ordination by senior ministers of both governments over at least the next five years.

The $1 billion in assistance over that period will cover current emergency military, medical and civilian aid as well as budget for hundreds of millions of dollars to be spent on reconstruction and scholarship programs to train engineers, health professionals and administrators.

Half of the aid money will finance interest-free loans for big infrastructure rebuilding projects. The loans will be for up to 40 years, with repayments not required for 10 years.

In an initiative to underpin a bipartisan approach, the aid scheme will be overseen by a joint commission with both countries' leaderships having an equal say on priorities.
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The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, said last night the new approach was preferable to merely handing $1 billion to "someone else".

The Prime Minister, John Howard, said the partnership reflected "the increasingly close relationship" between Australia and Indonesia.

What I actually meant was "destroy all life on earth."

This is something which could not be achieved by any natural disaster, hence humans have a potentially greater destructive capability.

I will assert the very obvious fact that pollution caused by humans, destruction of forests (upon which, of course, we rely for a steady supply of oxygen and absortion of carbon dioxide), extinction of countless species of flora and fauna, overall add up to a greater degree of destruction to the planet than has been achieved by any natural disaster, or indeed more than likely all recorded natural disasters.

Well that is of course except for the alleged meteor which allegedly struck the earth and allegedly blocked out the sun's rays with the resulting dust cloud, hence rendering dinosaurs extinct.

But then of course there is probably no point in trying to address these ideas to a person who has repeatedly denied the extent of environmental destruction caused by our species.

By the way -- have you tried rafting the full length of the Colorado River recently?

I get your point on your stance, right or wrong we have our beliefs and I dont think more or less of your opinion, I wont argue it. The question I asked was, what penalty would you do to those pretending to be the parents of the children survivors? To me either the code of Hammurabi works for me or in this special case the death penalty. These are the lowest people that ever walked to do what they are doing and our gene pool sure wont miss them.

I never said any criticism on the USA for the warning, merley the areas that got reports from the initial wave in those areas. If there was a two hour delay between disasters what did those areas hit last do to protect their people? I find it hard to believe that no-one in any form of govenment in these areas effected didnt get a emergency report, watch or monitor any form of news. Every country has some sort of emergency branch. Was everyone just living it up? Was there no emergency branch? No computers, radios, tvs? i can understand certain areas where there is no electricity, but not a major metropolis that has a huge tourism. That's my point, they messed up, not USA. I honestly dont understand how you are putting USA in connection with the resposibility? News happens in all countries and from what I understand many other agencies independant of the countries effected issued a warning, according to initial reports on two different news stations that interviewed so called tsunami experts. Whether they were serving their own agendas or not it still begs the question, was anything done to minimize the loss of life? Seeing this catasrophe makes me wonder if this were ever to happen to me or anyone else that there is some sort of plan especially when I live on a sandbar like Florida.

I never said anything about our military contribution in any of my posts except that they are doing quite well and doing great things. My criticism was concerning he pr on the situation. His business is politics and maintaining a positive image for our country. He wanted that job, he knew what comes with the territory. someone who is actively aware politically like yourself, I was interested in what your criticism was on no pledging a sufficient amount initially or since then. Yes I dont feel its a pissing match, but politically he looked bad on the world stage. Its all politics, unfortunately but that's life. I am curious though on your take by not having Carter involved, like many reported are reporting that he got snubbed. Yes I agree that old slick willie was a good choice to drum up major moola. I dont care if a democrat or republican takes the mantle, just gets the results. Then again its politics.

The reason I'm "putting (the) USA in connection with the responsibility", as you said, is because you mentioned this as one point in your overall criticism of the Bush administration for not doing enough, acting fast enough, etc. The tone of your initial message was extremely critical of the Bush administration for many things, you went on to name those things, and this was one of them.