tsunami

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I was speaking for myself, not President Bush.

I'm in a very small minority of people, I will admit, who thinks that the "global warming" scare is nothing but a huge scam. Whether or not President Bush agrees is something you'll have to ask him. Moreover, the political realities of challenging such a popular notion requires a different approach. President Bush is restrained by political reality. I have no such restraints.

Global Warming and the War of the Words broadcast - both HUGE con-jobs that the public is buying (or bought) hook, line and sinker.

First off, if we collectively sicken you, then you must be masochistic for sticking around to each their own.

As far as aid is concerned, I don't really care how much ANYONE gives/donates/loans. In time of crisis, giving is VOLUNTARY!!!!

NO GOVERNMENT is OBLIGATED to provide ANY financial aid/support to ANY other country. As jkaras already pointed out, the countries affected worst by the Tsunami are all in the economic sphere of influence of Australia, thus, Australia donates a lot because of close national ties, and to maintain the symbiotic relationship with these other countries.

The US donates for the same reason.

Why do I not see tons of articles/comments about the LACK of donations from China, Japan, etc... Also, I haven't heard any criticism about how fast THEY started to provide LARGE amounts of aid.

When the Tsunami came about, initial indications were that a minor disaster had occured, thuse occasioning the offer of a specific amount of economic assistance. As the true scale of the disaster has become more apparent, the amount of economic aid has increased as well.

Let's face it, we all give for many reasons.

Governments give because its in the interests of governments to have stable governments to deal with. If they want to keep good relationships and improve trade, they need to give.

People give because it makes them feel good, it lessens guilt over being comparatively wealthy and priveleged.

Big debate in Canada right now is that Federal Government food aid is mandated by a 50 year old law to be 90% Canadian. But its much more expensive and slower to ship Canadian wheat to the disaster zone than to buy rice in India, China or Vietnam and ship it to the affected areas. This was obviously meant to help farmers.

Canada also has debated over whether we should have taken the cost to send our Disaster Assistance Recovery Team (DART), a military unit with medics, engineers, portable machines that can provide clean water to hundreds of thousands of people, or send the money it cost to send our unit to a charity like the red cross. There was also debate about the fact we sent DART to Sri Lanka instead of Indonesia, because Indonesia was hit much harder in terms of people killed, homeless etc. But the truth is that the US is concentrating on Indonesia with bigger resources, and Sri Lanka needed the help. It also helps that in Toronto with have about 250,000 people who came from Sri Lanka, while we have much fewer people in the whole contry who came from Indonesia.

It is in our best interest to help these countries. One of the first things that Canada did was to forgive debts between the affected countries and Canada. I do believe that while that will cost Canada a fortune in the short term, in the long term it will help us maintain our trading relationship.

I think the US, Canada, Japan, Australia, everyone has a bit of self interest in the game.

James

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President Bush has "openly declared", and he is on the record of saying there's no such thing as global warming???? He has????

That's news to me.

Sure, he opposes the Kyoto treaty, but because it's unfair to America and exempts other nations.

Can you provide your proof for saying that?

Sure, he's not a global warming "chicken-little", but he hasn't dismissed the notion either. In fact, he's on the record of supporting programs related to it.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/06/10/bush.global.warming/

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/06/20010611-2.html

So here's another area in which President Bush and I are in disagreement. I think the notion of man-caused global warming is pure nonsense. President Bush, on the other hand, for whatever reasons, is at least giving it minimal lip-service and millions of our dollars to "study".

Ironic, isn't it? You are closer to agreeing with President Bush on this issue that I am.

I've lived in the US all my life. I used to believe the same thing, that the US and its people were arogant and do not understand the rest of the world. Then I looked at it logically.

Is there any other country on earth that has the ethnic diversity of the US? Do any even come close? Does any other counrtry have a higher percentage of foreign born residents? Who then could possibly have a better understanding of the world?

I have been to the Hoover Dam and it definitely is a sight! The Colorado River looks like one FUN ride that's for sure! But 1400+ miles in a rubber boat sounds a little much.

I was rafting last April on the Fraser and a full day (with a lunch stop) was more than enough for me!

The facts that you provided are interesting (thanks for that) is it REALLY true about the first and last man killed? I kow it makes for great legend but it seems a wee bit too ironic, even if the same people, the SAME DATE?? Wow!

I think I would have been taking that day off each year, chalk it up as a mourning day or something.

All in all it is much similar to the Fraser River here,

-It is the largest river in B.C., at over 1378 km (not miles) in length. Its headwaters are at Mt. Robson in Jasper (Alberta)

-The drainage of the Fraser River watershed is nearly one quarter of a million square kilometres (where much of California's power supply origininates)- which is larger than the area of Great Britain! PHEW!

-It is the largest salmon producing river in the world

-Approximately 800 million juvenile salmon migrate along the river every year.

-There can be up to 20 million salmon on any given day in the estuary.

It is also known for BUILDING BC, as this is where all the early settlers and miners set up towns during the gold rush and is still a place where you can pan quote successfully (if you avoid all the claim stakes and sluice boxes), most towns still exist and really haven't grown too much since then,original buildings stand and make for many tourist stops along the way.

And yes, I've taken more than one dunk into it, planned or not!

It seems that almost anywhere you camp on the mainland, the river you are camped at is either the Fraser or a piece of it.

These big and mighty rivers we have are just one of the many reasons I am so addicted to living here, until you have spent time near or on them , one can't understand just how much power and life they really contain.

As an addemdum, I will say that Iwas shocked to see the number of slamon that you can just walk up and scoop out like a bear due to the lower and lower water levels each year. It is not abnormal to see hundrds of 15 lb salmon beached as they fight upstream to spawn and die, but the numbers of dead increase every year and it seems they don't make it as far, as the snow melt is less and the river less active.

Just a few months ago I went to Chilliwack with friends(area is owned by BC motorcross) and you were riding over dead salmon everywhere you went, pretty gross really.

It is these sites that make me more aware and active when it comes to preserving our incredible environment.

Phew, sorry, another long one!

I expected to hear from Canada and Austrailia, as those are the two countries I would consider to be equally diverse. Which is why I formed my response as a question.

Well the US Census site seems to be down, but I did find another site that references the 2000 census data and shows the US at 11%.
http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_nativity.html
The site also shows that 18% of the population speaks a language other than english at home.

I explained in some detail why Australia has a special interest in the some of the countries affected by tsunami, especially the country that has suffered the most, Indonesia.

However I am still pleasantly surprised at the generosity of the Australian people, whose giving would most likely not be influended by these considerations.

I don't know which wars you are referring to, but of course Australia participated in WW I and WW II, Vietnam and currently Iraq.

We also helped East Timor gain independence.

And actually Australia does provide aid to many countries on an ongoing basis.

And how am I sterotyping Muslims?? Please tell me.

I realize you know many Muslims that are active in charities for this disaster...whoopie doo! Thats what they should be doing. My point was to illustrate Julian's obvious bias towards America.

As far as supporting homicide bombers...yeah...I understand not all Muslims do. I never stated that all Muslims do...the Muslim countries certainly do. My point again is to show and hopefully make people like you realize that you have such an anti-American bias (god knows why...the wolf isn't America) that you will go to the extreme ends just to illustrate your point even if it means streeeetching the truth and posting a rant. Look at what this discussion turned into...from a the Tsunami disaster to Anti-american offensive to other bullshit. I think this article sums up my feelings on this matter.

http://www.nypost.com/commentary/37436.htm

IT'S ABOUT THE TRAGEDY - NOT MORE BUSH-BASHING

By JOHN PODHORETZ

December 31, 2004 --

THE political and ideological exploitation of perhaps the worst natural disaster in all our lifetimes is almost beyond belief ? were it not for the fact that nothing these days is beyond belief.

Even as tears spring into the most hard-hearted person's eyes at both the unimaginable scope of the tragedy and at the wrenching individual stories of loss, opinion leaders just can't help themselves.

They are using this cataclysm as little more than cheap debate fodder about the nature and character of the United States, its president and its citizens.

Don't misunderstand.

It is fine and proper to have a debate and discussion about the degree of generosity the United States could, should and must show in the wake of this literally earth-shaking event.

But at this moment, the United States is not the issue.

The foreign-aid budget of the United States is not the issue.

Our government should not be the focal point of the discussion right now.

Don't we owe the dead, dying and injured the minimal grace not to convert their suffering into a chat-show segment ? the latest left-right clash over the Bush presidency?

And couldn't the editorialists at The New York Times have forborne ? even just for a week ? making use of the tsunami to complain about U.S. government spending on "development aid"?

Development aid is the blanket term for American grant money handed out to other countries, supposedly to help their economies grow. Development aid has nothing ? nothing ? to do with what has happened.

The aid at issue now is disaster relief.

Secretary of State Colin Powell found himself in the position of having to remind the world that over the past four years the United States has provided more such aid than all other nations on the planet combined.

It is appalling that he had to mention this, and that President Bush was compelled to cite the same information on Wednesday, because you're not supposed to brag about how charitable you are. But once a United Nations official decried the American aid pledge as "stingy," the administration had little choice.

Any rational person would have understood without having to be told what the president told the world on Wednesday morning, which is that the $35 million pledge "is only the beginning of our help."

But maybe people are looking for a sideshow to distract them from the sickening pictures and the keening cries of the untold numbers of mothers whose babies were swept away.

Perhaps my question was a little too cryptic.

I was referring to the loss of flow towards the end of its journey, and the effect this might have on the environment. Also I was querying the amount of water that actually reaches Mexico.

Obviously the water that is siphoned off on the journey is put to good use.

So perhaps you can reassure me that the land towards the end of its flow is not seriously affected, and that Mexico is not seriously disadvantaged by the amount of water taken from this river on its long journey.

He doesn't exactly say word by word that there is no such thing as global warming, but that is what he often implies. At the same time he also prefers keep discussions about this issue to a bare minimum. When Bush was once asked about why he dismissed an EPA report that blamed global warming on human activity back in June 2002, he just sneered and said, "I read the report by the bureaucracy."

Other times he would express that global warming does exist, and there are efforts to fight it. However, it is easy to see when examining his proposals that they are a sham. On Bush's global warming plan released on February 14, 2002 for example, the president announced that rather than reducing the quantity of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, his administration would try to reduce greenhouse gas intensity. This sounded reasonable enough: if there is a less intense concentration of greenhouse gases, they should have less overall effect, right?

The only problem was that Bush's proposal had nothing to do with the concentration of the gases. Greenhouse gas intensity, as the administration defines it, is the amount of greenhouse gas divided by the size of the economy. It doesn't take a lot of thought to realize that the size of the economy has nothing to do with the effect of greenhouse gases on global warming. Whether we're in a recession or the economy is booming, our planet will warm just the same.

and I guess you must also be a mind reader to know what my attitude towards America and Americans was two years ago.

Any "anti-American" comments I would have made that long ago would have referred to the invasion of Iraq and nothing else.

I DID NOT have a preconceived anti-American attitude.

I am telling the absolute truth when I say that the anti-American attitude held by many non-Americans was a TOTALLY NEW concept for me.

I learned about it in the discussions at ths website.

Since joining TR I have talked to people who have visited America and they have, with no personal axe to grind, commented on the insularity of Americans in general, and especially the almost total lack of news about Australia in your media.

And as you choose to get personal, so will I. During my two years association with this website you are the ONLY person who has consistently shown a basically nasty nature.

My comment "Collectively sicken me" arose from the self-adulating responses in this discussion. My posting represented "the straw that broke the camel's back," if you will.

I have made many wonderful friends at this website, and have developed a great respect for certain American peers.

But invariably you pop up with what appears to be a personal vendetta towards me.

Oh, so I started the vendetta? No Max, it was your personal "peeve" against the media that got it going.

Yes, we know all about your various "pet peeves," which merely illustrate a person who has rigid ideas about various things, presumably because this evades the responsibility of actually thinking.

Of course your real skill lies in rapid web searches for articles which support your own point of view.

And certain of us are fully familiar with your tactics when you are proven to be wrong on some issue. You either don't respond, or you post a lot of diversionary waffle, or try and drown us in a mass of URLs which support your point of view.

Regrettably Max, it is your innate nastiness which over and over again corrupts what would otherwise be an enjoyable experience in these discussions.

However not to worry. I don't attach much credence to the opinions of a person who said, early in 2003: "I consider George Bush to be an honest and honorable man, and the best person to hold the position in 100 years."

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In the early days of American western expansion, range wars were waged over water rights, water flow, and so on, not only with the Colorado River, but with the smallest streams and tributaries. If water flowed through your ranch, for example, would you consider it yours with which you could water your cattle and irrigate your crops, or do the people "down-stream" have a legitimate right to some, if not all, of the water? It's kinda' one of those moral dilemma type questions. (But I'm sure Australia has similar things in its history.) Fast forward a hundred or more years and insert environmental concerns into the already established equation.

Sure there are some environmental issues. And yes, there are some issues with Mexico. But maintaining an equitable balance between environmental concerns and practical necessity has been, and will probably continue to be, the subject of debate between various interest groups and politicians.

You wondered if I could "reassure you that the land towards the end of its flow is not seriously affected, and that Mexico is not seriously disadvantaged by the amount of water taken from this river on its long journey".

No, I can't do that. Because there are indeed some issues in that regard. But therefore what?

Here's a related article that you may or may not be interested in reviewing. And yes, it does mention the environmental consequences in Mexico.

http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/arroyo/101comm.html

But I don't have the answers you seek.

Matthew 6:3 "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:"

I posted about the generosity of Australians, because I was delightedly surprised.

How tacky of you to boast about your personal contribution.

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The first man to die on the Boulder Dam project (later renamed the Hoover Dam) was a surveyor by the name of J.G. Tierney, who drowned on February 6, 1922 while trying to locate the optimum site for the dam. On February 6, 1935, thirteen years later -- to the very day -- the last life was lost as a man named Patrick Tierney fell from an intake tower and drowned. Patrick was J.G. Tierney's son. Not only were they father and son, and not only did they die on the same calendar day, but they both died the same way -- by drowning.

Yes, it's true. And yes, it's very strange. (But the "legends" of people being buried in the cement are just that -- legends.)

No, my "dunk" into the Arkansas River was not planned, but it makes for a great story.

We were riding what were probably level 4 rapids, with a total of six people in the raft, one of whom was my teenage son, three on the left and three on the right, and I was in the back of the raft on the right side. We had been at it for over an hour and were really starting to work well together negotiating the rapids and the rocks, when all of the sudden we ran atop an unseen rock that was mere centimeters below the surface of the water. The raft stopped dead in its tracks, took a sharp and swift 90 degree turn to the right, and in less than a blink-of-an-eye, I found myself in the water, being swept down-stream, getting farther and farther away from the now stationary raft. The remaining five paddlers were working vigorously to free the raft from its resting place, while I was headed wherever the flow was determined to take me.

It wasn't my first time rafting, I had done it a few times before, but never on rapids this severe. So I wasn't a novice, but I wasn't an expert either.

My life vest kept my head above the water, but I was going down-stream backwards, watching as the river put more and more distance between me and the raft. The first thoughts that came to mind were the earlier instructions the "professionals" shared with us before we left. If you find yourself in the water, we were told, keep your head up, and go down-stream legs first. And whatever you do, be sure to keep your feet together, as you don't want to find yourself "romancing the rock". Somehow, but I'm not exactly sure how, I quickly turned myself around and made sure my feet stayed together. In the meantime, the others in the raft were able to free it from the rock, and they were aggressively rowing trying to catch-up with me. But the nature of the flow of the river would make it difficult for them to catch me, as we were pretty much advancing at the same pace. Should I try to negotiate myself towards the shore and perhaps try to grab onto a low hanging branch? Should I try to get out of the river?

All of the sudden my feet, which were still together and angled slightly down into the river, bumped into a large boulder. I was able to stop myself from travelling further down-stream just long enough for the raft to catch-up with me. And just as the rush of the water dislodged my feet from the boulder, I was able to reach the end of the oar which was being held out -- stretched out as far as possible -- and barely grab onto what was probably my last life-line. Two of my rafting partners were then able to pull me back into the raft.

While I was in the water, there was absolutely no fear whatsoever, but only thoughts of what I should be doing. Once safely inside the raft, I raised my fists into the air an let out a scream of exhilarating excitement. That was literally the best "rush" I've ever experienced in my entire life. It was only afterwards that I realized how close I came to experiencing my last mortal days on Earth. I suppose my life's mission had not yet been achieved, as I was spared the same fate that befell J.G. and Patrick Tierney.

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You call it a "boast". I call it making a point. The point being, don't criticize others for not doing the very thing you're not doing yourself.

And by the way, to be fair, you should also criticize Oz_Media for his "boasting". But of course you won't do that, because you're only using this as yet another excuse for an uncalled for jab.

Furthermore, I couldn't care less what you think of me.

You should really let go of the contempt, Julian. You're hurting no one but yourself.

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You are closer to GWB's position than I am. And it is you who should be explaining the merits of what his position really is, not me.

I think the man-caused global warming claim is a bunch of bunk worthy of absolutely no consideration whatsoever. GWB thinks it warrents at least some consideration. While you probably think the end of the world is near because of it.

I think GWB is wrong. And I think you are really-really wrong.

on your calm responses to my often inflammatory postings in this discussion.

And yes, I am quite sincere when I say this.

the tsunami was a brilliantly conceived and executed covert operation by the CIA to divert attention from the ever-increasing violence and lawlessness in Iraq.

An no, George Bush did not order this operation. As you would know by now, the CIA decides what it will tell the president.

I was enthralled to say the least, did he LIVE? [i]Well, maybe not quite THAT enthralled I don't think your posts are posthumous but hey, you never know.[/i]

As for the Tierney's, now that you mention it I do remember an A&E special or somthing like that on the dam and remember the surveyor falling in and drowning, I didn't know his son did too. That is some pretty harsh irony though, almost humorous.

...that she noticed that when they showed aid being delivered in the area, all the bags of grain and other supplies were emblazoned with huge initials, U.S.A.

She asked "why is everything they do need to be so blatantly American, they can't just do something without waving thier name around so everyone sees them."

My mother is an extremely quiet and peacful person with no predjudices and no hatred toward anyone. Even she feels that the USA displays overkill patriotism and pride in everything they do though, even offering a helping hand.

In all honesty, and without purposely trying to pi55 anyone off,I must agree much of this same 'overkill patriotism', or self righteousness is displayed here too. I thinks that's what the rest of the world sees and gets so tired of. We are ALL proud countries, but most don't need to show it in everything they do for another.

Again, no offense intended to anyone personally, this is just a general view/feeling/impression, and one I am positive many more than just myself see.

Perhaps you'll agree to the following.

Dear President Bush:

You originally agreed to send $15 million in relief money to the people across a thousand-mile-wide swath of destruction known as the Indian Ocean tsunami. That's half of what your inauguration party will cost.

I know, I know, it's hard to get accurate news in Texas, so you're excused, because you certainly have upped that amount to $350 million -- and the world is grateful to you for that.

If I may, for a moment, without meaning to ruffle your hawk's feathers, point out to you that the F/A-22 Raptor, the new state-of-the-art fighter just coming online costs $256 million by itself, pilots, crew, tax, title, parts, separate. When you outfit the plane with a pilot, the crew, the replacement parts, etc., it adds up to more than $350 million. Does that mean that you would have sent double the amount you're sending had not an F/A-22 Raptor crashed last month on take-off from Nellis Air Firce Base, outside Las Vegas?

The world also thanks you for sending to the area an aircraft carrier and helicopter carrier. But, and this is lost on people perhaps outside of America, please admit that they were already there at Diego Garcia, our base of operations in the Indian Ocean and for Iraq. I'm sure that in the coming weeks of hardship, disease, death and misery that the refugees will be comforted to know that no enemy aircraft will attack the earthquake zone. And that no tanks will dare challenge them.

But you forgot to send the one thing they need the most -- and that is heavy-lifitng helicopters to help remove rubble. So, if you've got some of those, could you please loan us a few? I don't want you to think, though, that the world is not appreciative that you're protecting the skies over the affected areas. Phew!

One last thing: I'm really glad to see Congress pick up the ball on this! Can I teach the American people a civics lesson for a moment? Thanks!

Congress will take up legislation designed to send aid to the tsunami zone. By the time Congress finishes this, the tsunami will be a long-forgotten episode, meaning that Congress will essentially Do Nothing About This. First, Congress introduces the legislation. Then it goes to committee. Then it goes back to the floor. Then it goes over to the Senate. Then it comes back from the Senate. At the same time that's going on, the Senate has introduced its own bill, which will go through the same speedy process that will deliver said aid in about two-plus years.

A year ago, it was Bam, Iran, where thousands died. They are still waiting for the aid you promised them.

The Christian thing to do is to get up off your ass and do something meaningful as the Bible teaches you and as you trumpet. Talk is cheap, Mr. President. Don't tell the world you've got Jesus in your heart if you can't do what Jesus preached.

The political thing to do is to get up off your ass and do something meaningful as any public-relations specialist would tell you. Face it, you've lost the confidence of the Muslim world. You want it back? Why not go aid the most populous Muslim country in the world (over 200 million), Indonesia, at the epicenter of this disaster? Bang! Your approval rating will go up and hey, no-Bang! that might mean that there would be less terrorism, huh? Or is that not a goal of your administration?

It's time to pony up, buckaroo.

And my regards to Laura and the twins.

I got the above off a Linux Site and just had to laugh. But Garion11 you may see it as the truth I do not know but at least you should be able to get a laugh out of it. I've left it as I got it with spelling mistakes and all.

Col

It doesn't matter how much money we have, we live in luxury compared to many of those who lost the little they had and therefore we feel compelled to donate what we can, just knowing what it's like to receive a helping hand when we need for ourselves makes us want to help those who are also in need, if not even moreso than most.

You must understand this as you have said you also appreciated those who helped you.

I've been on the bottom too, without the help and charity of others it would have been much harder to get on my feet again. Now I have a warm home and clean, dry clothes, clean drinking water and all those other things we often take for granted.

It's not really monetary riches, just the comforts that help us get by. Seeing such disaster just makes me feel so fortunate to be safe and have a roof over my head, thus I dig deep to help the less fortunate.

Times like this are a reminder of just how fortuate we really are. I think that was the point being made.

Dear jkaras,

Many of the countries devasted by the tsunami disaster provide cheap labor for many western companies and industries, including American ones. 'Outsourcing' is new to IT, but not new to the American business economy. Many jobs over the past several decades have moved to 'third' world countries establishing the now long-term imbalanced interdependence between cheap labor and companies' profits. While jobs are indeed welcomed in an economy that would have few other work opportunities, the substandard living conditions are underlined by the mediocre infrastructure of housing conditions and other services we westerners take for granted.

The relief efforts for this natural disaster are monumental and necessary, to be sure. I can only imagine the overwhelming mess and heartbreak that faces the volunteers, stranded tourists and dazed survivors. Very few countries/societies would have the wherewithal to manage and overcome this devastation.

Here's a few thoughts:

What would be a host country's cost of having refugees? It's probably cheaper to do this relief than it is to take in the refugees, whose final housing, education and food costs would not go as far in the host country as it can be done more cheaply in their own country. In addition, what jobs would be available to them once they arrived?

That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Maureen

If all business was to cease in these affected countries we would not be able to import manufactured goods like HDD made in Thailand, Nike shoes or whatever they are called now days.

Over all we would be saving money.

Incidental if you want to make comparisons about how much AU offers in Foreign Aid to other countries against the US you also have to take into account the population so do your maths and see who is giving away more per head of population.

Col

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Did you know that although Americans make up only 5 percent of the world's population, they give about 35 percent of the aid? One-third of all aid given to others comes from the USA.

According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, in 2003, the U.S. gave $37.8 billion out of a total $108.5 billion in foreign aid from the world's major countries. This is THREE TIMES the amount from the next largest donor, the Netherlands, who gave $12.2 billion.

You're welcome.

This does not relate to the countries affected by tsunami, but should still illustrate your point well enough.

In Australia, a very high proportion of consumer goods are imported from China. This includes everything from clothes to electronic products. The prices are so cheap that I feel ashamed buying the stuff, knowing what a pittance the factory workers must be paid.

So I asked a couple of Chinese friends what kind of wages these factory workers are paid. The answer: enough to support an individual, but definitely not enough to support a family.

so I will say it again. I have NEVER donated to charities out of guilt. My motivation has been compassion, and in the specific instance mentioned, in appreciation of the wonderful work done by the St Vincent de Paul society which runs the hostel for homeless men.

And NOT because of what they gave to me, but because it was only through my personal experience that I was aware of the wonderful work they do.

I have NO guilt about the relative comfort in which I live. I have COMPASSION towards people who are far less fortunate.

I really don't understand why you are trying to foist this guilt thing on me.

Compassion, guilt, love thy neighbour or whatever you wish to call it, we help because we understand that others are "less forunate" and require help.

Some equate this to a feeling of guilt, you equate it to compassion, whatever ,it all derives from an understanding of the less fortunate that makes us want to help.

THEREFORE, one could surmise that we (the rich, well off,more fortunate or whatever you like) will donate out of compassion, or a feeling that we have so much more and offering a little to someone that doesn't is charitable and helpful.

Some equate that compassionate feeling to the underprivaledged as to feeling guilt.

Nobody's has tried to foist or impose any thing upon you though.

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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050108/ts_washpost/a57477_2005jan7

But whether it is you or someone else, this just shows some really nasty views that would be horrible for someone in those effected areas to read. I am sure nobody has an abacus out to keep score.

It almost gives the impression that the only reasons such money is being donated to begin with is to beat the Jones'.

So much for compassion, it was lost in this thread I think. Again I am not singling you out, but it really is getting pretty ugly to read from everyone.

Fair enough, it just seesm taht EVERYTHING is equated to USD these days as it seems to be the gobal currency, whic is not an issue at all though, as long as there 's a marker.

I think my point was more towards what people can afford.

Can a Brit match $10 as comfortably as an American? Cost of living, and all that taken into account. Perhaps Americans have more surplus that they can afford to share with those in need, not implying you are all loaded.

I know when I lived in England people worked DAMN hard for very little and everything was so expensive.

I told a friend in London that I dropped $300.00 at the race track and he just about screamed! To spend $130.00 GBP was an astronomical amount for a day at the track, then I told him it was one race and he really went bananas.

SO yes it's a lot of money here too, but not that I can't make it back in a weekend.

For him it was a LOT of money, so I think of thios when I see how much people give, I think everyone gives what they can, nobody is short changing anyone and it should be respected by all, again not pointing a finger at you, Max.

Compassion and guilt are NOT synonymous.

And it is an insult to both my intelligence and my character to suggest that they are.

Anyhow enjoy your guilt while you can -- you may outgrow it some day.

I read something in to the comment that you didn't.

I think I understood what he meant and it really didn't have anything to do with riches or feelings of 'guilt' as much as an imposed feeling of helping out of sympathy for less fortunate people.

I am not trying to label you or tag you with anything, I don't feel guilty that I have built my life to where I am comfortable and happy, I have been uncomfortable and unhappy too and have earned everything I have without any handouts.

I am just trying to reiterate what I read into the comment as I thought you had misinterpreted the intent or got a different impression.

Not everyone is as eloquently spoken/written as you are and often we find it hard to get the right words down, but I got a different, less imposing message then you seemed to, I was just trying to say what I though the real intent was and it wasn't degrading to anyone, just that we seek to help the less fortunate and feel privaledged to have what we have.

Nobody is making a big deal out of it, but everytime I have tried to explain my comments and make my point clear, you seem to get a bit riled about it and come back qsomewhat defensively. In this case I feel a need to ensure you haven't misunderstood me, my intent is not to point fingers or tell someone what they are feeling, just to interpret the original comments intent as I read it.

just a simple breakdown in communication.

I also know you well anough to be assured that whatever decisions you may make in your life are governed by integrity and a degree of compassion of which quite possibly many peers would be unaware.

Another admirable quality of yours, which you have demonstrated in this side thread, is that you ALWAYS follow a disputed viewpoint through until a mutual understanding is reached.

that you didn't judge all Australians by my personal example.

I am quite capable of accepting responsibility for anything I may say or do.

I also acknowledge that I inadvertently started the pissing contest. I went to the Christian Science Monitor in the hope of getting an objective view on the situation, and it was only AFTER I posted the link that I realised the information in the C.S. Monitor could be misleading.

And regarding your final statement, I am fully aware that if it hadn't been for the USA we would all be speaking Japanese. Don't for a moment think that Australians are not aware of, and don't appreciate the part the US played in our corner of the globe.

which has for the most part (and I acknowledge my own errancy in this regard) been largely irrelevant to the topic, I am forced to come back to the first two postings:

"I can't think of anything meaningful to say about this topic" (jul646) and

"I was thinking of a topic to post about this too but it really leaves even me at a loss for words." (OzMedia).

And that just about sums it up. There IS nothing we can say that will in the slightest way help the people affected by this disaster.

But that's a TR forum for you -- whatever the title of the initial posting, the discussion veers into many side threads which in many instances have no bearing whatsoever on the original topic.

But on the plus side, the strong interest in the discussion proves, if nothing else, that the enormity of the disaster, whilst evoking our sympathy, is simply too great for us to comprehend.

And so we (yes including yours truly of course) prattle on because there is very little any of us can do about it, except donate according to our individual means, and hope that a fair portion of the money ends up where it is most needed.

So if you all think I am a ratbag, that's cool, but I thank you all for demonstrating that you DO care simply by your eagerness to talk abut the subject.

You could have said that days ago and saved me and Julian the headaches! LOL!

Oh well, I suppose you had to enjoy a weekend somewhere in the mix too !

It always amazes me to see the number of people who will believe the talking heads. By and large, the people who report the "news" are desparetely trying to sensationalize trivial things. The so call "news media" in the past began to use stories about global warming to draw attention to their "higher intelligence." Lo and behold, what they implied might be true has been "assumed" to be factual.

I am amazed at the number of educated people who can read but can't reason.

I really didn't think that I would find a discussion of this nature on TechRepublic, which doesn't give me an excuse for posting late. I have not gone through all the topics yet, but these are the thoughts that I have had in the past month.

The thing that hit me the most was the about the children. Last estimate that I remember is that there are 90,000 orphans as a result of the Tsunami.

With all of these orphans, there were also miricle stories that have surfaced.

There is one baby who slipped out of his mothers arms in the ocean, then the father saved him because he saw the toe sticking out of the water.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6773960/?GT1=6065
Note: It is the first picture on Jan 1, the picture shows the baby injured, so it is pretty graphic.

These next pictures come from the link below. You have to scroll down to the "Special Report- Tsunami Disaster: The Children/ then select the link for the Gallery Children of the tsunami."

The forth one is of an 8 month old baby whose parents were swept away when napping in a seaside restaurant. When they returned hours later, their baby was floating on the mattress inside the restaurant.

The ninth one is a baby that was born on the day of the tsunami when his mother had fled to the hills. She named her son Tsunami. He was not due until 15 Jan 05.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/tsunami.disaster/

I have been truly amazed by these stories because a baby can drown in a teaspoon of water.

Another thought-

I don't even know what brought me to discover this, but even though I had heard the word serendipity, I really didn't know what it meant. There was a movie not too long ago about this word, which has a rather rich history.

A quote from Richard Boyle, 2000 -

"One of many illustrative quotations for Sinhala and Sri Lankan words I have submitted to the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) happens to be for serendipity. It comes from William McGowan's Only Man is Vile: The Tragedy of Sri Lanka (New York, 1992). Although not particularly illustrative, at least it has direct reference to the island, which no other does. "If serendipity were to strike the island now, I'm afraid the dose would have to be massive," it reads."

These are the links to the entire story by Richard Boyle, 2000 -

http://livingheritage.org/three_princes.htm
http://livingheritage.org/three_princes-2.htm

This is a link to a tourism speech about Sir Lanka-

http://livingheritage.org/regaining-serendipity.htm

Are there any of you that have had similar thoughts of this nature? Are there any opinions or comments on my findings?

Have a Great Day!
Faith

Someone once said that "one picture is worth ten thousand words," but it was not until I read this first-hand account that the horror of tsunami finally came home to me.

An email from a dive instructor in Thailand. It is the best ? and most harrowing - description of the tsunami I've seen. Incredible.

Sitting around, day after Christmas, just staring at the TV, some movie we've seen before. Mid-morning, post-breakfast stupor controlling Karin and me. The power flickers and we moan. We'll have to get up and do something? Then we hear some yelling outside.

I look out the front door, still puffed up with pride about our new house, just 400 feet back from the beach. People are running up our street yelling. It looks like a fire at the large two story resort that effectively blocks our view of the beach. Smoke and dust coming up and all these people.

Then a small line of really brown water comes rolling towards us. That's weird. But I reckon it must be some strange full moon high tide. So we go upstairs so we don't get wet. I look out the window and try and take some pictures. There is a quiet rumble to it, like those white noise generators that are supposed to help you sleep.

The water is getting higher and higher and then it destroys our friends? cement bungalow! Then our front door caves in, and then water is coming up the stairs! HOLY SH*T! This was the last point my brain worked for a long time.

We try and throw a mattress out the window to float on, but the water is rising too fast, and out the window we climb. It's all going so fast. It's faster than conscious thought and by the time we are on our second story roof, the water is coming out the window. We jump.

Karin doesn't jump at the same time or did I jump too early? We're separated. I scream her name, but the crashing roiling water mutes me. I can't hear her. I scream and scream until I get hit by something and pulled under. I can't swim to the top, I pull myself through trash and wood to the surface and off I go.

Ahead are trees wrapped in flotsam and as I look a Thai guy is struggling to get free of it, as I pass by at 30 MPH I realize he is impaled on a piece of wood and can't even scream.

My brain shut down when Karin disappeared, and now all I can do is survive. Something triggers and I swim. I swim to avoid the trees which will trap me, possibly kill me. It seems that I am atop the crest of the tsunami, which is less like a wave than a flood.

From on high I can see the water hit buildings, then rise, then watch the buildings collapse into piles of concrete and rebar. I swim to avoid these. Left and right I paddle, looking ahead the whole time trying to figure the hazards. None of this is conscious, this isn't me thinking it out, it's some recessed part of the brain coming out
and taking control.

I was busy seeing the weird things, like massive diesel trucks being rolled end over end. Or the car launched through the 2nd storey wall of a former luggage shop. Or the person high up in a standing tree in a lurid orange thong. Or the older foreigner that got stuck in the wood and steel wrapped around a tree, and then his body torn off while his head remained. I couldn't scream.

I was pulled under, my pants caught on something, I decided that this was neither the place nor time for me to die, and ripped my pants off. I surfaced into a hunk of wood which cut my forehead. A 5 gallon water bottle sped by, and I wrapped myself around it like a horny German Shepard on a Chihuahua. I was passing people with bleeding faces and caked in refuse. Some people reached out to me, and I back, but the water was too fast and erratic. Some people screamed for help and I told them to swim.

Some people just stared with empty eyes, watching what happened, but seeing nothing. Some were just floating bodies. At some point, I passed a guy, cut on his cheek, holding onto a big piece of foam. We just made eye contact and shrugged apathetically at each other. Then I turned ahead to watch fate. When I looked back he was gone.

Trees were pulled down, and their flotsam added to the flow. I was hit by a refrigerator and pushed towards a building that was collapsing. I swam and swam and swam and swam and still was pushed right towards a huge clump of jagged sticks and metal. I was pulled under, kicked towards the mass, cut my feet and kicked again. I popped up on the other side, spun around and pulled under again.

Down there, I knew it was not the time, and I pulled my way up through the floating rubbish of my former town. I pulled and pulled and my lungs ached for air. I flashed on Star Wars, the trash compactor scene, and had some big grin in the back of head as I popped up. Sucking shi*ty water and air deep in my lungs.

This went on for seeming weeks. Time simply left the area alone. I grabbed the edge of a mattress and floated. Breathing, just breathing. Awareness brought back by the sound and look of a water fall. Trying to push up onto the mattress more and more, and it took my weight less and less. Tumbling over the edge, sucked under again, and out I shot, swirled into a coconut grove, where the water seemed to have stopped. There was even a d*ke like wall around the grove.

The water spun and churned, but went nowhere, and got no higher. It wasn't swimming, or climbing, but something in between. I made my way to the land. Every step had to be careful with broken glass everywhere, and sheet metal poking out. It was a long slow struggle.

The low rumble had stopped, and now is the occasional creak of wood on wood and metal scraping. Moans came across the new brown lake. A small boy was in a tree crying, asking for his parents in Norwegian.

I climbed up onto the d*ke and looked around. I screamed out for Karin, only getting responses in Thai. I stood there, panting, trying to find a thought, anything. As I came back to earth I needed to pee. The first thing I did after surviving the tsunami was PEE! Along limps an older Thai guy, finds me, naked atop a d*ke amid the destruction, covered in mud and filth, peeing. He didn't even smile, nor did I.

I spent the next minutes running from high point to high point screaming out for Karin. If I made it, she could too. There was no response from her. I found plenty of other people, and helped who I could, but always looking across this vast area of new lakes for her head.

Through the trees was a PT boat, a large steel police cruiser. The boat and I had been brought more than a kilometer (2/3 mile) inland. I was standing near a tree, hoping for a clue, anything to say she was out there somewhere. A small boy in a tree whimpered, and I pulled him down. We went inland. There were houses, still standing, a whole neighborhood atop a rise that was untouched. Just feet away were cars wrapped around trees. I handed them the boy.

I had finished my medic training exactly one month before, so I went to work. Pulling people out of mud, from under houses. One car, upright against the trunk of a tree still had the driver. He was dead. It went on. Before this I had only seen a dead body once or twice.

That was remedied very quickly. I pulled people out of the water, only to have them choke and die right there. I would take someone's pulse, scream for help, then find that they had died before we could do anything. It was beyond any nightmare or fear I have ever had.

An older Thai woman came up to me with a pair of shorts and averted eyes. She was ashamed that I was totally naked. I smirked and slipped them on. She smiled and scurried away. Was it the bright white ass or the fear shrivelled c*ck that had embarrassed her?

Roaming the former streets looking for foreigners to send to the higher ground, a place where we could all meet and tend to wounds. After an hour the Thais came screaming out of the mud saying there was another wave coming, and flying into the hills. We were left alone. Those that could walk did, the rest were carried. We made a
new base, higher and safer. And the same thing happened again. And again.

Eventually we ended up in the jungle at a park, where there was water and high ground. It was messy. Eventually there were about 300 foreigners, about 120 of whom were injured pretty severely with broken limbs and ribs, near-drownings, everyone had gashes of some kind, severed fingers or toes and shock everywhere.

There was no medicine, no tools, no scissors, no bandages. Nothing but well water (of questionable cleanliness) and some sticks and clothes. I tried to find anyone medically trained. It was only the diving instructors who all had basic first aid. So we cleaned with the water, we broke sticks and set bones and talked people into a relatively calm place. If someone was severely cut, we used their own clothing to mend the wounds.

It was a horror story. The floor was covered in blood, people were moaning, or vomiting or asking us to help them. And more arrived with every new wave of cars and trucks fleeing the "next wave."

After hours of this, we got news of helicopters evacuating the injured. So everyone rushed towards the trucks. I had to scream and push and pull people out of the way. The ones who needed the evac the most were the ones who couldn't get to the trucks. After twenty minutes of sorting through the priorities, and feeling like we had a handle on it, someone brought me to a girl who was bleeding severely out of her thigh and was in shock. No one had brought her to our little clinic area, they had left her in the back of the truck.

Finally, after a few helicopters had pulled out the worst, I headed back down. Through rubber tree plantations, and coconut groves we drove. It seemed quiet and relaxed. At the last corner it was devastation. The road was clear and dry up to a certain point and then it was a horizon of rubble. I shuddered.

Someone on a scooter came up and asked for a doctor. Everyone looked at me! I jumped on and they took me up roads I never knew existed, and over bridges that were barely standing until I was brought to five foreigners in the middle of nowhere. One of them was a good friend and diving instructor. It was the first person I had seen that I knew. It was a total joy. He was banged up pretty bad, but he got out and sent off to the hospital. Then the Thais came roaring up the hill, saying there was another wave. We had to carry four more people with broken bones (including a broken hip) up a hill. There was no wave. There never was.

I stumbled back down, wandering through the town looking for people to help. I found only bodies. I found one with a tattoo like Karin's on a scooter under some rubble. I pulled her out, and it was a Thai woman. Still gripping her scooter, mouth agape.

Eventually I made my way back to the dive shop I worked at. We had always whinged about how it was too far off the main road, but it survived. It was a center for the survivors. I walked up to find friends alive and things clean and organized.

I had been able to keep on, doing what I could to help people, to close out my mind to what was around me and look only at what I was doing, to not see the dead people, to not worry about where Karin was. I had held together so well. When I found out Karin was alive it all fell apart. I could smell the destruction, the horror I had just walked through, just lived through, that she had lived through. My body shouted out all the bruises and cuts I had ignored. It all struck me and threw me to the ground. It was too much. I could no longer accept this.

We hugged and ate and slept. My feet were cut up, I had small cuts all over my body, and a sinus infection from all the bad water. Karin had gotten hold of a coconut tree, wrapped herself around it and never let go. She had a few bruises and small cuts and a black eye. I was ecstatic to see her like that. First time I've been happy to see a woman with a black eye.

Most of the rest of our friends had come through. They had set up first aid stations and help stations, organized food and created a center for people to meet. The diving community came together and became our support, our medical care, our food - they did everything they could to help and then some.

The next day I went back to where my house had been and surveyed the damage. One bungalow nearby had been lifted up and dropped on top of another. The whole beach was visible, meaning all of the two or three story hotels that had lined it were gone.

There was a jet ski just near our house. The bottom floor of our house was gone, the upper floor was missing a couple of walls. The only thing left, was a plastic Jesus doll I had bought as a joke. So I was left with nothing in the world except my own plastic Jesus.

The level of destruction is virtually impossible to describe. On our beach we had approx. 2500 hotel rooms. It looked to me, that maybe 50 could still be called hotel rooms. The week between Christmas and New Year's is the busiest of the week. Without warning, without an evacuation plan the survival rates were minimal.

The wave at our house was about 7 meters high (20 feet) and in some places it was 10 meters (30 feet) high. It wiped out the third floor of most resorts. The number of dead is astronomical, several thousand on my beach alone. By the second day you could smell it, and in the short walk to my former house, we passed about 10 bodies just strewn about. Our final glance of the town was a cattle truck stacked full of wrapped up corpses. We wanted to go home.

In Bangkok most people got help pretty quick. The Swedes, Germans and English had charted flights for their citizens to get home. The Thai government gave free hotel rooms to survivors and there were lists of places to get food.

EXCEPT the AMERICANS. I went in to find out what help I could get -- I was able to get a replacement passport, a toothbrush and a paperback book. They said it was NOT THEIR POLICY TO ARRANGE FLIGHTS HOME. I was cut up, still covered in a pretty good layer of mud, I had no home, no money, no clothing (except some borrowed off Keith) nothing at all, and they could do nothing to help.

They did offer to let me borrow money, but they would have to find three people in America who would vouch for me, and that process should take less than a week. In the mean time I was stuffed. I was destitute and rejected by the embassy. Karin was with me (she's Swedish) and said that I could still try and emigrate to Sweden. I was VERY tempted.

In these last days, watching politicians go on about helping and giving aide, but they have no clue, that our own AMERICAN EMBASSY is so CHOKED with BUREAUCRATIC POLICIES that they don't or can't take care of their own citizens in drastic emergency circumstances!! While other Countries do. I am very, very angry. All the other nations of the world were taking care of their own citizens! Eventually I got a flight home with JAL (that would be JAPAN airlines) not even an American company, but a JAPANESE company helped me get home.

I am still listed as neither found nor alive. Before I left I had spoken to the embassy twice on the phone, giving my name so I would be listed as alive so my family would not worry. I went to the embassy twice, once to get a passport to replace the one lost in the tsunami, and they never listed me as alive or found. I flew out of the country using said passport and am still not found. I went to the hospital three times, and, as of yesterday I am now listed as injured (having been in the states three days already). My family is now waiting to see how long it will take before they are notified about my status. So am I.

It does raise a good question -- if I am missing or dead, do I have to pay taxes? While spiteful about the embassy, I am grateful to be alive, and that those I care about are still alive. I still look around and am in awe at what just happened. I really feel like someone has slipped me some roofies and I woke up in America.

by sfgary Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 13:53:42 PST
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/6/165342/5432

www.alohaspiritaunty.com

is so deliberately offensive that it really does not warrant a serious reply.

However:

Yes, I believe in those precepts.

No, I am not perfect.

that there are valid concerns for job security, but a part of being adaptive is to be open to learn new things.

The job that I have now is temporary. I knew someone on a contract who got a GS job (Army) and they thought of me to fill that contract position. It is not pure IT, but has enabled me to gain experience in Infomation Management and show the contrator that they do need someone in this capacity.

This has allowed me to network and see the other opportunities that are available. Plus, meet people that I might have never met. I had one person tell me that they would prefer someone that has the desire to learn, over someone who thought that they knew everything.

I know a guy who has worked for himself his entire life that is pursuing his BS in IT. He was a little worried about the job market in his area. With his background and some creative thought, he could still work for himself. Just look at Google. I was amazed at their history and what thay are still accomplishing.

That is just my opinion and I have the tendency to be optimistic. I always try to find the good in everything. Although serendipity is a rather new concept for me, I now see it in one form or another, every day.

It was actually the tsunami thoughts that led me to discover it. The death toll can't be compared to something we know, it wasn't caused by humans, and then you have those babies that survived. It is a lot to think about.

Take Care,
Faith