General discussion

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  • #2275462

    Turf Wars


    by becker-2004 ·

    Hi all. I am a network admin that is mostly technically oriented and not that up with management practices. I have been managing my network and user base for many years.

    I am in a situation where I am up against a more experience manager that has IT aspirations but not very technical. The manager can’t setup a network share between 2 PC’s – but the manager has plans of creating their very own ERP system that will be completely independent of the ERP already in place.

    The manager wants to setup their own IT department that is directly digging into my job responsibilites. The manager has also been very successful in convincing decison makers that any new project and decison come from the manager without my consultation – any problems that arise from it i will have to fix.

    I am stuck between a rock and a hard place – and am willing to continue doing my job, but i would like to make sure that accountability for bad decison making on the part of the manager remains in their court and they are held responsible.

    how does one go about that in a professional manner?

All Comments

  • Author
    • #3367869

      Where is your boss?

      by jamesrl ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      This is one of those things you don’t want tot tackle alone for fear of being isolated. Your boss needs to understand the issue and work up the executive ladder on this kind of thing.

      As a service provider to this new project, you have a stake in how its implemented. You need to ensure you have a voice even if its to late to have a veto. Your manager should help make sure this happens.


      • #3366263

        Also cutting in on your boss’s turf?

        by salamander ·

        In reply to Where is your boss?

        James Linn is right — this situation calls for your manager’s involvement. Remember that if this person is cutting into your turf, this person is probably, by extension, cutting into your boss’s turf.

        You mentioned that this will cause support problems for you…Perhaps you should go to your boss with a list of concerns. Will you need extra staff, equipment, overtime budget in order to accommodate this project? Any risks that have not been addressed? Will these responsibilities negatively impact your ability to do things that you already do for your boss that he/she values? Specific examples that impact your boss’s bottom line that have not been addressed by the other manager may cause your boss to sit up and take notice.

        If you are seeing specific project risks that the manager is not addressing, you can also try to document those risks and while supplying some recommended solutions of your own (in a helpful fashion, of course. The best way to bring up a problem is with multiple solutions). The manager may choose not use your counsel, but if something breaks later on down the line, you have addressed the issue to the best of your ability in a proactive and helpful manner.

        Best of luck.

    • #3367422

      What’s the problem?

      by rcom ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Submit porposals of what chages you would suggest on the projects that the manager is trying to do. Get involved with what sounds like a situation you’ll be dealing with.

      Get with the manager and have an informal meeting. Found out what the project is and let him know your “consrtuctive” concerns. More importantly as a team member offer your support like you’re supposed to do and this will work out.

      Look for opportunities to further your career, perhaps before it’s all said and done maybe there’s something in this for you.

      • #2725856

        Team Player=Doormat for PHB?

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to What’s the problem?

        “More importantly as a team member offer your support like you’re supposed to do and this will work out.”

        Been there, done that, and when the project went up in a mushroom cloud, was booted along with everyone else who was a “team player”.

        • #2725835

          Team Player

          by pmwpaul ·

          In reply to Team Player=Doormat for PHB?

          Domument, Document, Document!!!

          Domument everything!!!

          Make directional suggestions to correct issues without offering the exact solution. Refer the manager to technical manuals, send “white papers” that discuss the issues and provide enough rope for him to hang himself.

          Print out every email and bring it home. If you do lose your job and you have the evidence to show you were incorrectly let go, the unemployment office will go to bat for you.

          Good luck and CYA!! (cover your abdomen)

        • #2725777

          I agree totally

          by hazza ·

          In reply to Team Player

          I too was caught up in one of these. When the s*** hit the fan I had all the e-mails I had sent to the manager about the potential issues and my recommendations. Needless to say I survived the bloodletting and was given a fair amount of sway (and most importantly was included from the start) when other projects came up, even if they weren’t directly related to IT.

          All I can say is to make sure you know what you’re talking about, make your recommendations as you would as part of any team (don’t even think about trying to withhold any information!) and document everything (including their replies to you). If you have any concerns that they don’t acknowledge then send those to your boss, in the first instance, or another manager who has involvement. As I was the head of IT (we had only just been formed) I had to send it to another manager.

    • #3367313

      Cost : Benefit Approach

      by dilbert-tom ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Redundant systems always cause redundant maintenance and result in ‘bugs and “features”‘ that require nearly double the time to analyze, resolve, test, and implement.
      Lay out in terms of anticipated cost what ongoing reconciliation and audits for consistancy will be – and how they are of no value at all when redundant systems are trying to do the same job…
      Then as an alternatve, propose what changes might be done to existing (ERP ?) system to have it serve this manager’s requirements… The benefit of an integrated solution (and of keeping the IT aspiring manager’s fingers out of your systems) is twofold: 1) Whatever benefit that the manager can describe and 2) Savings from avoiding need to reconcile and do double maintenance.
      If you do not have an established Change Control procedure in your area yet, define one [heck, put yourself in charge if you can] and make sure that any changes go thru some kind of acceptance process before implementaton – and in the case where the ‘problem’ manager is implementing stuff himself, make sure that he is accountable for all maintenance and support for whatever he turns over.
      Remember to ALWAYS be documenting process issues and avoid identifying the problem manager specifically – let your management ‘discover’ who is disrupting the structure, this keeps you out of the related politics [don’t even try to challenge him directly, because that presents a chance that you could lose]. Clear documentation of Change Control, Support, Auditability, and minimiation of redundant effort should serve to increase visibility to your management and provide them with tools for escalation if needed.
      You have two problems:
      1) Threat to system stability and maintainability (and risk of need for increased resources to support).
      2) Political issue that this “IT Aspiring Manager” may ‘outrank’ you – so you could lose if a dispute arises [so do not deal with him directly, use your manager].

      • #3367174

        Reply To: Turf Wars

        by becker-2004 ·

        In reply to Cost : Benefit Approach

        i am not going to take on the senior guy on my own.

        but my boss seems to have given up and come to terms with the new order. time to be nice to the new guy or look for other horizons. hope IT picks up in 6 months. 🙂

        • #2725895

          Not time to quit

          by michaelpo ·

          In reply to Reply To: Turf Wars

          If the problem you first described is real and you do what you are suggesting, then your Management career is done. Crawl back in your cube and wait for the fire alarms to go off. Next, Sr MGMT to be standing there asking what you are going to do about it? At that point you will not be able to say, I told you so.

          Get with your boss, close the door and find out what is going on. If this non-technical manager can intimidate your boss, time to polish the resume and move on. Let your boss know this, It might inspire him/her to think that he/she will have to clean up the mess without you. Don’t argue management or control, Discuss technology, give a thorough review from your prospective, including questions and concerns.

        • #2725866

          find your alies

          by inkarico ·

          In reply to Not time to quit

          as MichaelPO indicated, find out where you stand with management and if they will back you up. From personal experience, know if management (including your boss) has already made a decision about you. if that is the case, better to find a new job. i found hard to believe that this can happen…but (unfortunately) it is the reality.
          good luck

        • #2720079

          keep going

          by heml0ck ·

          In reply to Reply To: Turf Wars

          keep going up the chain… one of the other resources you can use is your HR department… Does your company have an org chart?
          I agree with most of the posts here… be constructive, and make sure you point out lacks in foresight and cover yer butt!

      • #2725893

        Cost&Benefit is what upper mgmt pays attention to

        by swohlers ·

        In reply to Cost : Benefit Approach

        Assuming the manager’s systems are not an improvement or benefit to the overall operation, outline additional hidden costs, including opportunity & security aquired due to these non-IT approved systems.

        (This gets a little off topic) I hate to say it, but often times IT folks forget they are a service organization. If this manager is bringing in IT systems of his own, could it be that your IT department is not leading in it’s ways of trying to improve business and saving money by fully integrating the systems into it’s own structure? Taking part of a day and walking around a the building, sitting down and talking with users can really open eyes – both from the user’s point of view (a real person from IT), as well as enlighten you as to what people are trying to do to get things done. Remember, they have pressures as well.

        At any rate. This manager is having his own systems installed for a more driving reason than to piss you off or be an IT wannabe. He is responsible to someone to contribute positively to the company…. Find out the reason for the IT needs, get ahead of the cart instead of behind it. Guide him, become a resource for him and both of you will get something out of it. He will get his resources, you will get something that integrates better with your systems.

        • #2725849

          Not so fast

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Cost&Benefit is what upper mgmt pays attention to

          “This manager is having his own systems installed for a more driving reason than to piss you off or be an IT wannabe.”

          Maybe it’s because he has trumped the IT budget, and now needs some of the horsepower IT wanted to obtain all along. Or he has been planning this for a while

          Maybe he is just tired of IT having all the glory, and his dead-end department wants to show IT up for once.

          Maybe he feels that “IT gets ALL the toys”.

          More kindergarten-playground games go on at the middle management level in industries that were not it-centric than any other place.

          I used to deal with the fallout from the cellphone sales company I was in having thier IT driven from the supplier imposing fees to get them away from pen-and-paper and call-the-order-in. The usual mantra was “how do we do what XYZ wants us to with a decrease in IT spending?”

          It was kind of a relief to be let go after the owner started out a meeting with “I don’t know anything about IT; I just know I need to cut expenses”.

        • #2725847

          Reply To: Turf Wars

          by beoweolf ·

          In reply to Cost&Benefit is what upper mgmt pays attention to

          Recently went through the same issue.
          After months of working short-handed, submitting new budgets and cost/benefit studies, delaying needed repairs and upgrades…I was informed taht the log jam was removed and things were being accelerated.

          However…my proposals were going to be implemented by a outsource team. Seeing the hand writing on the wall, I went directly to the company president, asked for the straight story. Were there any issues with current standards?, technical problems not addressed? Oversite lapses? Finding no justification for being out-flanked, I sought advice from other dept. managers.

          Bottom line, the PRes was being pressured, and was unlikely to keep his position. I negotiated the best severence package I could and found the door.

          Hlding on, just to hold on is a no win situation. You get all the blame, none of the glory…and in the end you will still be shown the door. Leave while you can! get referal letters, best severence and tap any connections you have developed for job leads. It isn’t running,,,it realizing a tactical withdrawal is better than an indefesible position.

    • #2725900

      CYA and security

      by jamesaaa16 ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Ask the IT wannabe to put his plans in writing, then focus on security. Lay clippings of hacked companies on your boss’s desk and ask for assurances you won’t be held responsible when the other guy gets your company into one of those headlines.

    • #2725899

      Change Control Documentation

      by retrocat ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Appreciate the delicate situation. Could you introduce Change Control Documentation? Every stage of a project, from initial request to the conclusion would need to be assessed, detailed and signed of by those managers whose staff would be affected by it. You might still have to put things right at the end, but it would be clear that it was not your ‘fault’.

    • #2725882

      Watch from a distance

      by inxale ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      In thoery , I would be asking myself why my boss is accepting this , unless he is already wet then the answer is self -explanatory. I suspect something is going to fall in terms of projects so do not be obstructive because it will be your fault irrespect of how badly managed the project is. If your boss has already surrendered then you should be preparing yourself for a new boss in the future , maybe ?

    • #2725877

      Take em outside & thump em……

      by answerman ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      With no camera’s around of course. Where is your boss? Spinlessly sitting and watching?

      Being a CIO means giving your managers underneath you autonomy to perform their job function, and backing their decisions, that’s what a boss is all about. And it sounds like your is missing a few vertebrae !!

      In the meantime, I would do nothing to repair, fix, consult on, assist, or share responsibility for this “climber”…. Let ’em do that big shoe dance at the end of a rope, all by themselves…

      As long as no one can say you PURPOSELY went out of your way to NOT HELP…. your covered. Also perhaps it’s time to purchase one of those tiny little recorders, and go in closed doors with a “career decision meeting” with your boss. That’ll tell you right there, if he/she is part of some “get you to quit” campaign.

      Don’t laugh… it happens all the time. Except this time, you’ll have a secret recording of the meeting, on which you’ll hopefully be able to get them to incriminate themselves…… Lawyers created this mess…. welcome to business in the 21st century.

      • #2725694

        Physical thumping might be nice but try the Virtual Variety

        by sleepin’dawg ·

        In reply to Take em outside & thump em……

        Always keep in mind “The 3B Principle – Bullshit Baffles Brains” Far from being obstructive clobber this clown with a shitstorm of information
        ensuring that you get receipts and acknowledgements for everything. Ask loads of technical questions and demand answers. Do a cost/benefit analysis and ask him for his opinions. In short you will demonstate your technical virtuosity in the face of his incompetence while appearing helpful and supportive. However, all this is predicated on the basis that your department is up to date and providing all necessary services in a timely and efficient manner.

    • #2725875

      Sometimes it pays to record and escalate

      by barrbe ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      You might want to look for a management mentor and try and learn the hierarchy of who to escalate your concerns to. If you have some great ideas for improvements, document them formally and send it to your boss with a copy to his boss. His boss will then either quietly monitor the situation or ask you for more information. Either way, your manager will have to act in some way on your suggestions.

    • #2725872

      If you want to keep your job and can’t beat them then join them.

      by kensundstrom ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      It sounds like your boss has given up already. Also your boss is probably pumping out his/her resume. As soon as your boss is gone either you will be part of the new IT team or thrown out. I have been there a couple times in my 11 years in IT it’s not fun. I have had bosses I would go the extra mile for replaced by an idiot I absolutely hated. The end result every time has been me getting a new job. I did give in the last time this happened, I became part of the new IT group and it paid off. I sucked it up and then waited when the dust settled I got in my two cents and got promoted and I got things done that I couldn’t have under my old supervisor.

      • #2725798


        by ardom ·

        In reply to If you want to keep your job and can’t beat them then join them.

        This sounds so similar to a situation I went through last year. A new “financial genius” was hired by the company to cut costs in 6 call centers. He started by firing all consultant/contractors then tooted his horn about how much money he saved. That one didn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out! Eventually the boy wonder shut down 3 of the 6 centers, including mine. I recently heard he’s been let go. It was a pretty helpless feeling to see the train coming and not be able to jump off the tracks before getting run over. The saddest part was the number of really good people the company lost because wonder boy managed to convince the right people that his plan was the best. It’s not always what you know or how good you are, it’s all in the popularity contest that upper management has within their own ranks. Best of luck to you!

    • #2725870

      Document, document, document

      by mtufts ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Make you sure you document everything that happens in that network–however small–in a file you keep with names, times, dates, and, if applicable, places. When you can provide a documented, chronological record, it will go a long way toward vindication (or damnation). Do NOT act like a fishwife!…

    • #2725869

      Turf Wars – Suggestions

      by mmm123 ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      I am assuming from past history that you have some examples where things have gone wrong in the past and know from a technical perspective what type of informaiton you need… such as requested response time or Service Level, number of users, technology planned and why, security level, implementation plan (high level … will it be a single shot weekend implementation or a phased roll out will it include a pilot… etc.)

      Once you have a standard list of 20-30 generic questions/information you need create a check list with room for answers and try to make as many of them from existing selection of choices. Then I would suggest to your boss that you introduce this into the other persons “New Process” in an effort to support their endeavors 🙂

      This way you appear to be supportive have limited their technical impacts by creating multiple choice from the technology you support and if you update this on a go forward basis … every month … every quarter with new technology you support then this will not be out dated (protected excel spreadsheet would be good)

      Also create an loop in point on your form/check list that if they are using new technology and it impacts the following that someone on your managers team needs to be invovled in the project initiation process to ensure you are involved when needed.

      Good luck…


      • #2725775

        Think Career and Not Just Job

        by bhalverson ·

        In reply to Turf Wars – Suggestions

        Becker, I hope you take MMM123’s advice…

        Basically, you can group your choice of response to this situation into

        1. Fight the change, either overtly or covertly. This can result in you “keeping book” in hopes that when the axe falls, you will be able to prove some sort of wrongful dismissal…I don’t know about you, but after leaving a job, spending the next 6 months or more fighting about the past can be a real downer.

        2. Go with the change. Suck it up, Kiss a**, Play the office politics, work the system, etc. This is a soul-draining experience in my view, and takes a great deal of effort above and beyond the work at hand. If you were bent toward this type of thinking you wouldn’t have started the discussion in the first place.

        3. Do your job with the attitude and the quality of professional that extends beyond whichever organization you are currently working within. The advice in MMM123’s response is in line with this type of thinking. Go beyond the confines of the situation and look at the organization as a whole. If there are going to be new initiatives, what questions need to be asked and answered at the beginning, before implementation? How do you ensure that this intiative helps the business meet its stated goals? What stakeholders need to be on board and invested in the outcome? What information does the IT department need to support these intiatives and technologies? Ask these questions in the presence of others than just the new manager present. Remember, this is not “sucking it up”, because your intention is not to fit into the organization and its politik, it is to influence the organization positively while you are there. The goal is not to “make nice”, but to be respected for your abilities. (The people that respect you can also be good references later on, BTW). This new guy isn’t going to be your friend, and I wouldn’t encourage you to pretend that he is, however, that doesn’t mean he will not respect your abilities, should you have a higher interest in mind.

        This approach of “taking the high road” as some call it, or it could be called “career thinking”, rather than “job thinking.” In this age, jobs will come and go, but those abilities that set you apart from the crowd will be tremendous assets in your career wherever you happen to be. In addition, you will be able to say, “I made the best effort I could at the time for the good of the organization”, and then move on when the time comes. You can then apply and refine those same skills of approaching situations from a proactive, objective, broad perspective to another organization, and even outside of strict IT work. Following MMM123’s advice, you may chose to develop a New Technology Initiative document, among others, that are part of your arsenal of tools as you go from organization to organization. That’s were your work will come in.

        New behaviors may also feel strange at first, so you may find yourself falling into the other two types of approaches while you are still at this organization, if those have been your typical responses in the past. Remember, you are building a career, not just trying to keep a job.

        Good Luck.

      • #2725634

        I have been through a simular problem.

        by brp ·

        In reply to Turf Wars – Suggestions

        It seems that certain managers are not capible of proper impact analisys of new projects. One of the biggest constraints is time. Do you have enough time to do impact anlisys on the project.

        User training is another problem if an old system gets replaced. Explain that the project will require time to smooth out the “teething problems” and give a plan on how to avoid certain problems, giving deadlines (break the project into smaller projects.

        You have been in support for a while and sometimes being in support you must take management decisions. What is the best for the company, not you. List contraints, benifits and forseen problems in the order management will like. Do not give negative input, this will only make the manager upset and he will make the rest of the descision makers look at you as though you are not there to better the company.

        Ensure you have documentation on the problems you foresee and make sure you have a meeting with the decision makers so they are aware of the possible cost implications, and better cost effective solutions. Be nice to the guy, you do not want to get under anyones skin.

        Good Lick

    • #2725868

      Document what you need to, but work with him…

      by cindy in fl ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Remember, if the new guy is bringing in work, then that is not bad for you. Besides, the more IT responsibilities he attempts to take on, the more likely you will be to be working for him than your current boss. Do not burn bridges. So… work with him. You are on the same team, really. Remember your obligation is to the company: your job is to keep the network up, moving, viable. He’s a new player adding work to the your environment. That’s not bad, that’s just how it is. If your boss is not jumping all over him, then it’s not that far out of process for him to make changes. Do your best to mitigate any negative impacts, either by jumping on them right away, or by catching them ahead of time with a change process.

      In either case, don’t play the turf war, you will lose. Being seen as a team player is infinitely more valuable in the long run than hanging on to your turf, and eventually sets you up as the one who keeps on top of things and keeps the network moving as it should, regardless of who is throwing changes at you. A much better reputation to have.

      If you haven’t already, institute a change control process. It won’t look like you’re picking on his implementations if you institute change control across the board, and it will make you look like a forward thinking team player.

      By the way, document, document, document. Keep a problem log or something; a steno pad, I don’t care, just something. If you need to be able to show that any problems were beyond your control, you will need both a change control process to show how you try and head off problems, but you will also need documentation as to what you did, and how you handled problems when they did arise. Gotta CYA. Always. I don’t care how good your boss is.

      • #2725852

        Best answer so far!

        by govtech ·

        In reply to Document what you need to, but work with him…

        Cindy has coverd all bases with her response and is 100 percent correct. You still have to work with this guy so… do it! Proper documentation will CYA and allow you to take on more work as the network administrator, which is not a bad thing.

        A change control documentation process will allow you to still maintain control over the network and by working with this non-tech manager you may be able to make positive “suggestions” that will keep your system from being compromised or damaged.

    • #2725862

      work with the experienced manager

      by michael@friartuck ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      find a chance to talk to the manager who is giving you problem. tell him indirectly that you can help him look good in front of his boss, but he would have to cover your back as well.

      • #2725631

        I bet this guy would welcome your help

        by curtis_n94521 ·

        In reply to work with the experienced manager

        If this new manager has been successful in getting your senior execs on board with his vision, my bet is he will recognize talent and welcome good people willing to help him out. But you will need to build the proper trust with him so he can learn to be open and rely upon the expertise I’m sure you can bring to the table. So try setting up a meeting with him. But before you do, talk to some of the folks he has on the ground. See what is being planned. Then prepare for the meeting with this manager and show him where you can help or what insights you have in relation to challenges and opportunities. Don’t fall into the trap on telling him why xyz won’t work. You must come from the perspective of what is needed to make xyz happen (which is how you document the realities, especially if what he wants to do is way out in left field). Be open, honest and yourself and I’m sure you’ll do fine.

        I say all this as it sounds like you already tried the escalation route and your existing boss doesn’t want any part in it. That says a lot… either about your current boss or this new guy.

        Good luck

    • #2725850

      Check your employment contract

      by johnofstony ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Have you an employment contract? If so, check it for your responsibilities. If it is vague or your actual responsibilities don?t match those on the contract, explain the situation to your manager and ask for a new contract. Also explain that it is unreasonable to expect you to be responsible for a network over which you have no control and explain that you want that fact to be included in your contract. If you remain calm and unruffled during this discussion you will give your manager no excuse to lose his temper or fire you or generally get angry with you. If he does get angry, explain in a calm manner that you have many years worth of experience of their particular network and it would take many months for a newcomer to gain even a fraction of your knowledge. If your manager has any brains at all he may realise that this remark also applies to him!

      Finally, keep a lookout for another job. I used to change jobs every 18 months or so, not quite out of choice but if things looked bad where I worked, I voted with my feet. I don?t know how much you are valued by the management but if they do value you as an employee, they won?t want to lose you and you may have more power than you realise. I don?t know how mobile you are or what the availability of employment in your field in your area is so my ?change your job? advice may not be easy to follow.

    • #2725833

      sounds familiar

      by mph@ew ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Wow! Your story sounds soooo familiar. I am an enterprise admin working in a quite large IT department for a global corporation with several disparate application and technical groups. In our case, it is a director of one of these app groups that wants to “do it his way”.

      I do not know what advice to give you, but what you need most is backing from your management. After almost 10 years with this company, my manager, and VP above him, trust my judgement and always back me in my decisions, even if they may clash with this other director’s ideas.

      Keep management on your side by doing your job to the best of your abilities and knowing which battles to fight and when to back off. Keep what is best for the business in mind and you will always come out ahead.

    • #2725821

      Multiple ERP systems?

      by natem ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Definitely get your boss involved. It sounds like your strongest objection available is the duplication of efforts that this manager is attempting to create. Multiple ERP systems will create a system with lots of duplicate data entry. Find and identify as many examples of this as you can. It will also take additional personell to maintain the system. Make sure the administrative and finance management know about the extra work involved for them and I think you might begin to gain some allies. Also, if management knows new personell will be needed to run and maintain the system they probably won’t be as keen on giving in to creating another IT department. Find out what feature this guy expects to get out of the new ERP and if it’s already available for the current. If it is I would be extremely suprised if it wouldn’t be less expensive to upgrade your current ERP. I’d use constructive criticism, via email – report your findings so that it clearly explains the disadvantages of the new ERP being proposed. (and save all the emails)
      -Good Luck,

    • #2725820

      Don’t get into a pissing contest – you’ll lose

      by skipperusn ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      OK – first off don’t get into a pissing contest so he is playing in your sand box, be a team player. Approcah it as how is him having his own IT going to benefit the corporation or business.

      As the bosses if your department is delivering less than expected – approach it on business terms – what is best for the business and corporation… Will the money be better spent – there or here?

      You start a pissing contest – well you lost everything – let him start the contest – then approach every issue on business / cost terms and you’ll win..

    • #2725807


      by bgora ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Try to get your boss involved and point out to him that if you look good then he looks good and vice versa. Then try to get the managment to buy into a Managment by Objectives program where everyone can see what everyone else is trying to accomplish. This should force people to converse with the system administrator when they are have to think their plans through to implementation and funding by the management staff.

    • #2725764

      Reply To: Turf Wars

      by is girl ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      You said two things in your original post that struck me as the heart of the situation:

      1) I have been managing my network and user base for many years.

      2)An technically inept Manager plans to create their very own ERP system that will be completely independent of the ERP already in place.

      Is it possible that this Manager is involved heavily in the ERP system – not from a technical standpoint, but from a user standpoint? Does his dept somehow depend on the ERP system to be productive? Has he expressed dissatisfaction with the current ERP system?

      This sounds to me like a situation where a new ERP system is coming and this Manager is pushing the project – probably because he believes the new system is better than the old one.

      Sometimes IT gets stuck in thinking that they should have the final say in every decision made that involves hardware and software. However, salespeople selling systems often go to the department head that can cost justify an upgrade or will see the benefit from a new system.

      I work in an industry where our salesmen work with Dept. Managers about a software/hardware solution. It’s not until the sale is made that the IT people are involved in the process – unless I am consulted and promptly draw them into the process. In my opinion, it’s easier to get some input from IT upfront and get their enthusiastic cooperation than to try to work around them when the time comes to implement the new system….but you’d be surprised how often it goes the other way.

      I say..hang in there. You will find that you are involved with the new ERP sysem when the time comes to roll it out. This Manager doesn’t want to run the IT dept – he’s just trying to do a better job running his dept.

      • #2725703

        Doing your job is not ‘Playing the game’

        by gaijinit ·

        In reply to Reply To: Turf Wars

        I have worked in information systems from transmission to IT management and then as a business manager for the past 25 years, both in the US and (currently in Tokyo) as an international IT consultant. I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I have some, having been ‘in the biz’ for a while.
        I noticed that in your original posting you only expressed your dissatisfaction with what you perceive as someone entering your ‘personal area’. Do you own the company, or just work there?
        As an IT manager, you should concentrate on one task – keep the network running at peak efficiency to provide the rest of the company the information they need to take care of business. That’s it. If you don’t understand this, you are in the wrong career.
        Let the business managers manage the business, and as the IT manager, take care of the IT systems. You are working in a SERVICE area. If this guy needs his own IT system, then he probably has a good reason for it. Have you asked him? I read several postings recommending that you sound out the senior manager with IT aspirations and find out why he wants to do this. You may be surprised that he has valid reasons for it beyond enhancing his own sense of importance.
        IT management is more than just being aware of all the latest hardware and software and keeping your certs up to date, it is also listening to your users and finding out if you are meeting their expectations or if there is any room for improvement in added services, security, etc.
        Sound the guy out, and if his idea looks contrary to your company’s goals, make note of it, document anything that affects your own network, and keep it to yourself, only to be used in self-defense if HE starts the finger-pointing when it all crashes and burns. But don’t take your concerns to management – it’s just not your decision.
        If he is, as you said, a manager with a lot of experience, then he did not get there by only kissing up to the right people. Somewhere, to someone, he has demonstrated an ability to know what he is doing, so why don’t you try to find out what he’s planning and benefit from it instead of getting into a confrontation with him?
        Are you 100% sure that there are no shortcomings in your own IT management practices or systems? Have you asked anyone except your own staff or yourself this question? If you haven’t, then you are just as guilty of arrogance as you assume this experienced manager is demonstrating.
        As difficult as it is for the business managers to market products/services in these hyper-competitive days of downsizing and cost-cutting, having people complain about ‘defending their own turf’ causes unecessary problems by wasting management’s time and (sorry) is immature and unrealistic. If this guy’s idea is a waste of company resources, then it will be noticed and he will get the heat. If not, it’s not your problem, so don’t worry about it, as long as he doesn’t get you involved.
        Be part of the solution, and show you wnat to be part of your company’s team – it will pay off. Or are you in it only for the personal gratification? If so, then you would be better off starting your own company – but as long as you are working for someone else, make sure you are providing everything that you can. That’s what working for a living is all about.
        Document the processes, poll your users, and make sure your staff is up to date. Don’t document for later revenge, you won’t get any satisfaction from that no matter how many lawyers you hire, all you will do is help make your lawyers’ Mercedes payments.
        But the documentation will come in handy if you decide to pack it in and find a new job. Then when someone bothers you again, you can start all over again. And again….. Look for satisfaction in your private life, your job is only that – just a job, a way to support you and your loved ones’ life style in security. Do the 9 to 5 and keep the rest of the day for yourself – like they say, you only get one go-around, enjoy it all you can, don’t waste time worrying about things you can’t control. Don’t try to – your blood pressure will thank you.
        Sorry if I sound too harsh, but remember – “You can’t fight city hall”, and “You can’t please everybody”. It might not be satisfying, but it is realistic.
        Good luck!

        • #2725639

          Get off the soap box

          by itisforme ·

          In reply to Doing your job is not ‘Playing the game’

          If you really knew anything about business you would think twice about offering such sarcastic dribble and then just not do it. I have worked for over twenty years in IT at several levels and in several different business environments. In every case that I have experienced and in fact in every case of all the other IT folks whom I have met over the years have expressed to me. The IT folks are asked and expected to be all knowing about all user needs and occupations. This means that somehow we are to be all knowing about every occupation that the company has and every user need. We are expected to tell the users everything while not sticking our nose in their business by telling them everything that they need to know to perform their job on a computer. Most IT folks get very confused about this and tend to get very frustrated by it. We are expected to just take over and do everything for others and at the same time they want to control over what we do with out having a clue about that which either can be or needs to be done. This wont work and always ends in a squabble.

          It?s the old ?You IT folks just do as you are told and stop trying to run everything, you just do the computer stuff?. Mean while the folks who take that position refuse to go half way because they don?t have a clue about how system works and can?t make the necessary decisions that directly pertain to their part of the job. So IT must do it all while taking the grief from folks who refuse to roll up their sleeves and work with IT on the project. Then they put the blame on IT for everything they don?t like while being convinced that they are keeping their hands clean. Those who can do, just as long as someone doesn?t get in the way. We also will hold your hand and spoon feed you as you try to adapt to the system all the while being told how bad we are. When others go to potty on us we will even clean them up and change their diaper. We will do it all with a big smile on our face that smile is right below the nose we can?t keep out of the others business. Gee you don?t know how to do accounting on a computer? It?s done on a computer, I thought you knew everything about computers. Isn?t that part of your job to know how to do it? That is life in IT.

        • #2719849

          Well, excuse me…..!

          by gaijinit ·

          In reply to Get off the soap box

          I know this forum is supposed to be about helping Becker, but you took it upon yourself to flame me, so I think some self defense is appropriate.

          My sarcasm was to try and get Becker to face the realities of his situation. And if you have tolerated whiny-butt people coming to you asking you to show them how to use a spreadsheet and you complied, then you have been wasting your time too.

          Unless it’s a really small company, couldn’t you refer them to the training department? If you don’t have one, then organize one (if you have time-if you don’t, let management know about the problem and hire someone to organize one, or do it on a part time/outsourced consutlation/basis as needed).

          Maybe I’ve been lucky, but the companies I have worked for (admittedly most of them pretty big with many departments) have clearly defined job performance descriptions, and I have never faced being held accountable for “holding someone by the hand” when it was not part of my job to do so. If it was in my job description, then of course I would have to see to it, otherwise, no way. But don’t just leave them hanging, it’s obvious they need help from somewhere.

          When you manage an IT department for 500 to a thousand engineers and executives, you can’t be expected to know everyone’s job and show them the best way to do it. That’s THEIR job.

          If your users can’t tell you what information they need to have (not specific data formats, just the type of info) and what they intend to do with it (so you know what format is best for them), then they don’t have any idea what they are doing in their jobs either.

          If that’s the case, then make up a questionnaire, solicit information on a regular basis and analyze it to help you provide the best service for your users.

        • #2719174

          You flamed Becker-2004

          by itisforme ·

          In reply to Well, excuse me…..!

          Helping Becker-2004 is the objective. You however flamed Becker-2004 and gave ridicules advice so I felt compelled to correct the record. If you feel flamed by may response to your self professed grandiose knowledge of business and your belittlement of Becker-2004 then feel flamed. The basis for the flame you made was that Becker-2004 worked for the company and did not own it. Well the problem with that is none of the managers own the company either. So you served nothing other then to flame and belittle Becker-2004 and put Becker-2004 in his/her place a.k.a. you are just an employee shut up and do as you are told. Well so are all of the managers, so what? Does being a manager entitle someone to ruin a company? Does it entitle them to waste money, people and other resources? You mention that someone somewhere must have thought that this manager was worth something and that is how that person got to be a manager. Where do I begin with that one? I?ll do it this way. All the nut cases that became dictators became dictators because someone thought that they were worth something. Does that make the carnage they caused right? Does it make standing idly by and letting it happen right?

          If you take your head out of the fortune 500 companies (been there did that) and join the real world, then you will find that computer users and their supervisors have an innate knack at assuming that the IT folks monitor every keystroke that is made therefor should automatically correct their mistakes and also have a complete understanding of every activity that is done on a computer. Therefor IT folks should make themselves indispensable and available to them at every whim. Making them read the manual and or cheat sheets (which IT must make for them), is just something that is unnecessary and controlling especially when it is the IT folks job to do that for them. They have no time to learn how to do their job on a computer and IT folks have nothing but time to help in their endeavors. This most especially applies to mutton head managers who waltz into a company and want to do things their way. The company existed before the new manager came (gee I wonder how) so perhaps this new manager might try and fit in. That is the situation Becker-2004 is in. The manager demands a new ERP system and the creation of a separate IT department to be formed around that which the new manager undoubtedly will control. Becker-2004 fears about the near certainty that as the new IT department grows, Becker-2004’s IT department will shrink until all IT is controlled by this new manager. Becker-2004 also fears that this new manager will wreak havoc, waste money, people and other resources and fail do to the fact that this manager is basically clueless about the ways of IT. Becker-2004 feels that the new manger is doing nothing other then power grabbing. Certainly not all users and supervisors are a disruptive and counter productive drag on IT folks, however there are more then enough to make IT some folks feel that they are. Since both the new manager and Becker-2004 are just employees why should Becker-2004 be obligated to be relegated to a back seat and possibly oblivion?

        • #2719163

          Okay, another track, please.

          by gaijinit ·

          In reply to You flamed Becker-2004

          Okay ‘mike1f’ – an innocent question, if you please (no more fighting, okay? I can see I missed the mark and probably did Becker more harm than good, I was just voicing my own feelings in light of what I have experienced – that doesn’t mean it is necessarily suited for everyone – your points are well taken).

          I’ve been working in the IT management field outside of the States for quite a while, and I just read your ‘I’ll second that’ comment, so I wnated to ask you a general question.

          I can’t help noticing that so many of the advice/answers seem to be like mass paranoia or warning Becker of impending evil plans. Have things really gotten that cut-throat in the US business world? I knew a few people who exhibited the inferred worst traits of this new manager with IT aspirations, but they were by far the minority.

          So many replies are telling of how the same thing happened to them, etc., it seems things have really taken a turn for the worse. I am just old enough to have been put off by the rising yuppie class to respond by getting the hell out and going where your work can still be done in somewhat cooperative conditions, but it seems that is a thing of the past in the USA. Am I reading these responses wrong?

        • #2719097

          Can I come to where you are?

          by crawk ·

          In reply to Okay, another track, please.

          Mhartley – you’ve given me a glimmer of hope! I’d bet a whole bunch of us haven’t seen anything better than the business climate described in these posts for a very very long time in the U.S. Wherever you are – enjoy it! (I’m serious – no sarcasm intended.)

        • #2719229

          paranoia? no….

          by secure_lockdown9 ·

          In reply to Okay, another track, please.

          actually – here is the real issue in my opinion.

          more tech saavy positons are being created. everything from DBA’s to CSO’s to Business Analysts. All these people are skilled tech folk. Management is taking the stand that these tech folk understand what the “business” is all about a lot better than IT staff. Therefore it makes more sense for them to take on more IT related duties. because they are already “technical” there should is a very small learning curve involved.

          what comes into question is managements ability to make those decisons based on the what information? project management states try to keep people who are on the same side involved in the project. in order to keep your project moving along, try to keep everyone involved happy or make sure you only have people that see eye to eye involved in the project. if a project manager is given the choice of playing politics or just excluding the “bad apple” – what will they do? chose the shortest path available to the sucess of their project.

        • #2719258

          management issues

          by becker-2004 ·

          In reply to You flamed Becker-2004

          hi guys, i just recently noticed that this thread picked up responses, so have not had a chance to read all. but you two have make a hated debate. i think both of you make good points. there are a lot of good point made by many.

          i think a big concern on my part is what is trying to say. we will get the heat for everything that goes wrong and everything that they don’t like about whatever it is they are trying to do. they will not consult with us and they are going ahead full throttle with what they are doing.

          i also think that the true measure of the success of an IT project is in the results. i don’t think these people will stick around to see the results of what they are doing. guess who will get the “clean up” job? they will be long gone.

          in the mean time, with regards to documentation.

          they will make sure that everything that goes wrong and they don’t like about the system gets documented as a problem current IT infrastructure can’t fix or deal with. everything that went well gets documented as a wonderful job that all current project team (of which IT are not a part of becuase IT doesn’t really understand the “their business” as well as the appointed project team members do!) members are doing.

          i am prepared to live with the situation. but at the same token. i really thing that credit (or blame!) should get directed at where credit (or blame!) is due.

          I am getting the impression that very smart and intelligect managers have realized that they can use IT as a sort of “rug” underneath which they can sweep away and hide the “dirt” they create.

        • #2718015

          You need some objectivity —- Are you up for it???

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to management issues

          You seem to have left out some crucial information
          in your request for advice. How big is your company? How long have you been there? How long has your boss been there and how old is he? How long has the other manager been with the company and his age? Does the other manager make any valid
          points in his arguments? Is your boss ambitious or
          is he satisfied with the status quo? Are you over satisfied with the status quo? Can you honestly say your department is on the cutting edge and properly responsive to the needs of the users? Who established your present systems? Anyone current or were they inherited? From how long ago?
          Are you loyal to your boss? Is this loyalty perhaps misguided? Are you afraid of the other manager because he is an unknown element? Are you afraid you and your skills are obsolete or are about to be come so? Why are you with that company
          and why do you want/need to stay there? The really
          big question her is, WHAT DO YOU WANT????? Not for the company, not for your department, not for your boss but you, WHAT DO YOU WANT – FROM YOUR
          Answer that and the next question has to be, what are you prepared to do and how far will you go to achieve your goals??? Are you prepared to take the necessary steps to achieve your goals or have you already told yourself that it’s too late, too hard or your too old, too busy, to get into this now? Are these questions too tough or personal for you? They shouldn’t be because nobody will ask them of you but you should be asking them of
          yourself IF and this is a big IF, you want to be and can be objective about yourself. The natural tendency is to allow one’s self to grow overly comfortable in a satisfactory situation. Note, I said satisfactory not satisfying. We all have different ideas on what is saisfying and only you
          can say what yours is. Comfort however, can lead to complacency and dull your sense of awareness to what is happening around you. How’s your situational awareness??? Has your company peaked or is it entering the entropy stage? It doesn’t have to be the whole company. It could be your division or your branch of it. Hopefully it isn’t your department. It seems to me your slipping into a political situation wherein the other manager is ambitious and has set about empire building. Rightly or wrongly he has identified your department as a “soft” target. If he is right he is going to win regardless of his lack of technical knowledge. Technical knowledge can always be hired and good managers can be trained.
          Great managers seem to be born with a management gene in their DNA but this doesn’t mean they will be a winner everytime out of the gate. Remember Apple Computer. They brought in the guy who had lifted Pepsi to the point where the boss at Coke felt threatened enough to bring out a new formula. That was a mistake and the boss paid the
          price by publicly falling on his sword. In the mean time the Pepsi guy was flying high and when Apple felt it was losing market share, around 18% at the time, so they kicked out Steve Jobs and brought in some frog from France and the Pepsi guy. Before they were finished they had Apple’s market share down around 4% and it looked like Apple was about to go the way of Commodore and other early entries to the world of computers. Jobs was brought back, which must have been humbling for the people who had booted him. Jobs,
          so far, has saved the company. It hasn’t exactly regained its former glory but it is no longer circling the drain. Jobs is a great manager of a tech company the Pepsi guy is a grat manager of a soft drink or consumables company; they should each stick to what they’re good at.
          You are probably thinking all of this isn’t answering your question or providing much in the way of advice but it does cut to the nitty gritty. Why and what are you afraid of with the other manager? You could end up further ahead with him than your present boss. If this guy is out to carve himself an empire make sure he is carving on his empire and not on you. You seem to want the status quo which, to me at least, the surest way to career stagnation and that could ultimately turn you into a sitting duck or target. Either can be fired – on. The moving or upwardly mobile target is much harder to hit. In case you are telling yourself it’s too late or you’re too old to learn new things let me use this occasion to remind you of Colonel Harland Sanders. He was 67 years old when he opened his first KFC restaurant so, as you can see, you’re never too old or too late unless they keep throwing dirt on you. I know how I would answer this for myself but only you know what you want and know to what limits you will go. Neither I nor anyone else should or can answer that except yourself. My only advice is try and keep yourself
          clean and above the fray but keep an eye out for what is best for you and go after it. Maybe you should be looking out to establish your own empire
          and while your boss and the other manager battle it out you could come up the middle with a neat cost effective solution to everything. That would be my choice but what the hell everyone knows I’m
          a low down mean and nasty SOB. Whatever, goodluck on whatever you decide.

        • #2700079

          Well, Excuse me

          by jrowe ·

          In reply to Well, excuse me…..!

          First off, I say that I respect your ideas and congratulate you on being employed by companies large and profitable enough to have a training department. Unfortunately, the reality is that IT now has to take up the training slack of a department that was dissolved due to lack of funds. We are the first group where funds and people are dispensable. That is the reality. I feel extremely bad for Becker. We are always coming up against someone who thinks he knows better than the IT department. And its always become a disaster when outside plans are implemented without the aid of IT. And we are expected to know everyone’s job. We are to be all-seeing, all powerful and know it all. We are to provide training because there isn’t any training available at my company. So all I’ve got to say to you is that you have been extremely lucky to work where you work.

    • #2725753

      All always define the project scope

      by frederic_abergel ·

      In reply to Turf Wars


      I have the same problem to some extent. I am CIO of an academic hospital and dealing with clinicians can be difficult in the same way you expressed. I found that making every project clear at the beginning has been the best and most consistant approach. For every project submitted by a clinician, we now have a standard project definition template that defines the project objectives (both business and technical), the project risks (this is where you put your concerns), the project assumptions (very important for you), the project deliverables, every parties responsibilities (very very important) and if you can a kind of SLA where you specify a level of service if certain technical and/or business conditions are met. For every project, I must sign the document as well as the sponsor. Even though this document does not prevent all the problems, it does give a clear message to the other party that you’re serious in this and that you are willing to guarantee quality but only to the point you can predict the environment. Believe me, this changes quite a few things in any kind of relationship!

      Hope this helps.

    • #2725752

      Email to decision makers

      by j_shamon ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      First I would discuss your concerns with this Manager, but be prepared to backup your concerns with what can potentially happen if the project is not thoroughly thought out. Where can money be lost if this fails or is not thought out logically? What benefits is it going to bring your company and how?

      Next I would send an email, (the words you use are very important in the way you express yourself) to him/her and copy the appropriate decision makers expressing your insight into the possible problems that can and probably will occure, (try to be as positive as possible, highlighting the benifits about this project if there are any) Be as diplomatic as possible shifting the accoutability to this ambitious non technical Manager. Make it absolutly clear that if the proper people are not consulted and they jump into this big IT project without getting insight from the IT folks, then they’re the ones who will have to clean it up.

      Next I would save both a digital and hard copy of your email just in case you need it in the future.

      *note* this is just my opinion and it may not work out to your benifit if you take my advise. Just an outside opinion that has no knowledge of your place of work or the people there. In the end it’s you that has to face this challange.

      Kind regards,

    • #2725706

      There is something missing here…….

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      It is difficult to offer advice based on such scant information. What is the size of the company and what type i.e.: service or manufacturing? A manager is referred to in one case in the singular and then in the plural; why? Doesn’t the manager referred to, have a boss? Is the manager referred to, on the same responsibility level? Could it be that this manager is on a higher level and is trying to increase his empire or fiefdom? These questions need answers if an intelligent assessment of the situation is to be made and a proper answer formulated; anything else may offer moral support but little of actual value. One thing one should keep in mind is nothing will be gained by creating enemies through confrontational tactics. Keep your eyes and ears open to see what senior management has in mind and if there are any personal contacts on this level perhaps they can be addressed, informally, to see which way the wind is blowing through the senior management suites.

    • #2725695

      Let this individual run his/her course, stick to your guns..

      by mikemillion ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Hmmm, have dealt with this in numerous situations.

      But the one thing has never failed me, once I have confirmed my perception that the other individual attempting to complete their agenda is a non-technical person trying to cite to management and peers that they have the ability to implement something that does require a significant amount of technical skill that they may or may not have, I stand back and let the individual try to fulfill their objectives. If I say something or complain, then people take the perception that I am jealous, or I am not a team player.

      As with any other major implementation, there is always risk to the company and its business, and more importantly your job, so you should always be careful to take note of the activities that are going on, and make sure that where it interacts with your job, handle that to the best of your ability. When any particular risk has the potential to be catastrophic, then yes, like others have said, go to your manager and he/she should be ready to stand up for you, if they do realize your true value to the company.

      So, keep doing what you do, and excel at it, and sooner or later Management will discover this either by this individual’s own ineptness, or the opportunity for you to ‘shine’ will be present itself, and management (if they have even one ounce of perception skills) will see that they should have consulted you in the first place.

      Just my $.02 worth..

    • #2725678

      Develop yourself into a more complete person

      by jm22 ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Many excellent suggestions on tactics and strategies; I am writing to give you a different perspective: personal growth.

      Many of us, myself included, grew up to believe that the road to professional success was to learn all the technical how-tos and memorize all the information.

      But there are other components for successfully getting ahead that we have neglected — for example, how to promote our accomplishments [for myself, I just assumed that everyone else out there would know enough to be dazzled by my technical acumen but they actually don’t know enough either to be dazzled by me or to understand the inadequacy of the non-technical to lead a technical development.]

      We need to develop some of the ‘softer’ skills — like Leadership, Relationship building, communciation, etc. Our goal is to be more effective within our organizations and be heard and understood at higher levels so we will be less prone to have to clean up someone elses mess. These skills can be built via training, self-paced instruction, courses, etc. I can make specific suggestions if you are interested.

    • #2725669

      Handwritting on the wall

      by sc_wilco ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Update your resume. If the decision makers have turned a deaf ear to you then plan a graceful exit on your timetable ie look for another job.

      • #2720509

        This turf war isn’t about you. IT is only the vehicle

        by robertmi ·

        In reply to Handwritting on the wall

        The new guy has an agenda. He wants a part of your bosses’ portfolio. He is widening his own sphere of influence within the organisation. You might like to bring a draft organisation chart to your boss and ask him to sign off your area of responsibility to the new guy. If your boss signs then you know where you stand. You have a new boss. If he doesn’t want to lose some of his turf, he will have to do something about it. You are entitled to know who your boss is. On the technical side, running two independent systems in one organisation doesn’t sound too clever. Perhaps a helpful memo seeking advice on which individuals in the organisation will be part of the new system (so you also know who won’t be) plus the usual questions about infrastructure etc. You don’t really need this info but if you show willing and make it sound like an offer to get with the program and sort out your resources etc etc you just might give the new guy something to think about. If the show does get up and running you can guarantee that he will want to bring in outsiders to set the whole thing up. He must have some sort of basic issue (real or imagined; actual or political) with the status quo. So, while you are doing all of this get your resume up to date. One last thing. Play your cards close to the chest. You might already have let your feelings be known. In turf wars there are only losers and survivors and you are on your own.

        • #2719837

          You Got It

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to This turf war isn’t about you. IT is only the vehicle

          This is a really good approach. Assume the worst and politely ask your good friend, your boss, to confirm it. He may not see the handwriting on the wall himself, so this may be his wake-up call too. That’s one way to be very valuable – to demonstrate that you are a political realist willing to go with the flow.

          Of course every realist is prepared to jump ship when it starts to head for the bottom, or when the ship’s rats move into his quarters. . .

          Good luck with this. Just remember that the technical side is not all there is, this is part of the job reality as will – it’s called – what ?
          Job hegemony?

          Steve Mandell

        • #2719170

          I’ll second that!!!

          by itisforme ·

          In reply to You Got It

    • #2725646

      I need some clarification about the manager

      by itisforme ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      What I interrupt from your Post is that this manager is not an IT manager or even in the IT department. If that is correct and as you say this manager wants to set up a separate IT department for management, or a separate department altogether or both. Then I would as do what ever I could to make that happen ASAP. Help build it and move it off of your plate ASAP. The sooner it is removed from your plate the better off you will be. Let it succeed of fail on it?s own. If they are to shallow or pompous to take the wisdom and advice of an experienced IT professional then do a major C.Y.A. as you document what you are told to do and just do as they want regardless of consequence. Make certain that everything is documented and do as the documentation states. If you have documented proof that you did as you were told regardless of how feeble the plan it is then you are giving the manager a shovel to dig a hole which will bury the manager or to build a throne that the manger will rule from. Either way it?s off your plate ASAP and you go on with your business.

      Just make certain that you document your requests for clarification and the responses you get and let fly. The manager will either sink or swim you just need to stay away from the pond so to speak. If the other management is in bed with this manager then all making waves will do is drown you. Get it off your plate and let the inevitable happen. If you C.Y.A. then you are being a smart team player. You will come up roses if fails or succeeds. If it fails then you just whip out the documentation when the bad news comes your way. Management tends to stick together especially when things go bad except when they don?t have someone like you to blame. Then they start pointing fingers and scatter. That is why you must play along and document everything. You wont get the blame if it fails because it will be documented and you will get credit which will be documented if it succeeds. Just play the game by the rules that they make as it goes along and you will be fine. If you are told to make a hundred foot bridge and in the middle you are told to make a ninety degree turn half way across. Ask for clarification and just do it. The egg will be on the face of those who instructed you to do just that. After all management is management and management calls the shots.

    • #2720094

      It’s to no one’s advantage

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      It’s to no one’s advantage to continue in such an atmosphere of uncertainty and frustration.

      Request a meeting with these “decision makers”, as you called them, and the manager in question, and simply ask to discuss “your” job responsibilities. Let them all know that you’re becoming more confused about where your responsibilities lie, and you want to review them so everyone can be working towards the same ends.

    • #2719974

      Learn and use Manager’s Language

      by techassist ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Your situation is something that happens on many IT Shops today. Due to the increasing complexity of IT technology, non technical managers find many difficulties communicating with their technical staff and indeed reaching their IT objectives. It will be very difficult for the non-technical managers to understand technology at the levels a technician does. What most managing officers are doing is to hire quasi-technical managers to run their IT shops. This managers do not have and in deep knowledge on IT Technology, but they know how to talk into business language.

      What can good technicians do to overcome this tendency? Non-Technical managers will not be able to become knowledgeable technicians.

      The opportunity is on your side. You can learn to talk into business language. Express your opinions in terms of return on investment, business security, technical workload, cost of ownership, resources, etc. That’s the language managers understand. When you talk into bits and bytes they get confused and blame you for that.
      Learn their communication protocol, that’s the success key.

    • #2719861

      Consider “Mutual Benefit”

      by leejunchoi ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      This is not a war or to say who is the person to blame of. the manager must have some reasons to convince the decision makers, so 1st thing to do is find out what is the reasons!! then start tackling from the reasons.
      from the reason, try to explain to decision makers and the involved manager about the cost and time factors involved in having a redundant system in the company, explain to the decision maker as well what will be the outcome if using everyone creating his own set of system, how many extra cost and confusion involved, this will be very interesting for the decision maker.
      finally, after all of this, TRY to COORPORATE with the managers, to help create a better solution (IT) for the compony, with this no one will be “hurt” and everyone gets what he wants.

      • #2717992

        The problem may not be redundancy being brought in BUT something superior.

        by sleepin’dawg ·

        In reply to Consider “Mutual Benefit”

        We are all assuming the existing system is state of the art and all it could be. Supposing it’s not and was installed in 1989 and has only been upgraded once or twice in that time. Maybe the hardware is running on 286 or 386 platforms. Think
        that’s a crock??? Go to NASA and ask what computers are on the shuttle. Last time I looked they were using 486’s. Check the bankruptcy sales and see how many companies have gone belly up while using “Pentium II’s or III’s. We don’t know whether the IT dept is on the ball and until we can get an idea of what the state of the system is the best we can do is commiserate with poor ol’

    • #2718869

      Turf War strategy

      by erb014 ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      My suggestion would be as follows:


      What I mean is, make sure that you get the manager to document for you what these decisions are and what he specifically means by them. Get this in writing (electronic or not) as completely as possible. You can do this by querying him for addtional details as you go. SAVE everything he sends you on the subject and make sure you outline (subtly) your objections when you have them, and detail your concerns or solutions.

      The objective is to document that he is directing you with bad decisions (if they are) and covering your own behind by showing that you raised issues with solutions that were ignored.

      This doesn’t really solve your problem in that it won’t remove the guy immediately, but it will certainly help keep you from looking incompetent and, hopefully, put the spotlight back on him. It also has the potential to backfire in that if he follows your advice it will make him look good and he’ll stay ahead of you, but he’s already there now (you might have been napping).

      Hope it helps.


    • #2719504


      by zlitocook ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      I have been through this same thing three times! I tried to join in, accept what is going on and doing a presintation on how we improve and help the network. But the new boss, who has never worked with IT but has years with improving other departments. Documation, save all emails, memos and anything else. Most new CIO,s CTO’s or what ever have no idea what has been done and do not care how much work has been done!
      You need to have on hand what you have done and how much it has helped. The new company heads are looking to reduce cost and the more cost is reduced the more they make. It’s so republicon I need to go to the server room and relax!

    • #2719739

      Reply To: Turf Wars

      by sharkbited ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Yo kid if this manager is not very technical he is only hurting you in the long run because you will be picking up after his dumb mistakes…Buck up and prove yourself to the big you have any certs(certifications)to show them or friends at other companies that can vouch for your knowledge …We are all in this boat together companies all over have dumbasses out there that think that they are IT pros and dont even know the basics of computing never mind networking and other complicated areas of the IT scope and planning phases. If I were you I would quit and find a better position with qualified pros that can help you grow

      • #2700071

        Help You Grow???

        by jrowe ·

        In reply to Reply To: Turf Wars

        You mean there are companies out there willing to hire you and allow you to grow? That’s amazing…..I haven’t found one yet that is willing to allow you to grow. I’m at a company where the IT manager lays off the best people who work the hardest and keeps the ones who do nothing!! How would you like to work in a job like that? If you have any tips on second level Help Desk positions, let me know. I’m looking to get out!!

    • #3237724

      Why ??????? Be carefull and do not blame

      by fenaikh ·

      In reply to Turf Wars

      Hi Becker-2004

      I would call it quit and look for a better job.
      He is elemnating you by not be updated and then no need for you. It looks to me you may have said some thing or did some thing did not made him happy and you did not notice or forgatten.

      sorry it is not personle but happend to me.

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