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Weak pool of applicants

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by nettek

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My IT dept. is looking to hire a junior network technician. We are almost entirely a Microsoft enterprise using TCP/IP, with a half-dozen third-party apps. Responsibilities include desktop support, basic network troubleshooting, and light admin worksuch as creating user accounts. Given our salary allowance of $38-40k, I figured I could not get an MCSE with 8 yrs. of experience. Accordingly, I screened resumes for people with 2-4 yrs. of experience with MS platforms, and have thus far interviewed 10 candidates.

I have been utterly amazed at the lack of basic networking knowledge of the candidates. Not one of the candidates could properly answer more than one of the following questions:
1. What is the difference between a hub and a switch?
2. What file system is supported under Windows 2000 that was not supported under NT?
3. Besides a client IP address, what other IP addresses can a client receive from a DHCP server?
4. In a Windows domain, what is the difference between a local profile and a roaming profile?
5. On a Microsoft network, what is a Default Gateway?
6. What is Microsoft's command line utility to map a network drive?

I think these are basic questions that anyone who has worked on an MS network for 2-4 years should be able to answer. Am I wrong? Are these questions too difficult? Or did too many people enter the IT field when it was hot, and many simply shouldn't be there? Some of these candidates claimed to have an MCP, Network+, or A+ certifications. It appears the market is saturated, and I may have to search long and hard for a qualified candidate.

32 replies

by oz_media

"Or did too many people enter the IT field when it was hot, and many simply shouldn't be there?"
As a person who always bitches that ANYONE and EVERYONE has an MSCE, I just had to jump in here.

An MCSE cert these days is as common as a drivers licence, and almost as easy to get in some schools. Granted you're not expecting to hire an MCSE but this is just one of the many MS certs that are handed out in Cracker Jack boxes these days(sorry to everyone who has worked very hard to achieve MCSEstatus and is now lumbered in with the masses of useless IT Staff).

Your questions are not too challenging at all, howvere, are you looking for someone to LEARN or someone who already has these qualifications and will move on shortly for better opportunities.
I think in your case, if you can allocate the time, you should look at a student who is sincerely looking to enter IT and has a decent working knowledge of the systems and products. this person wil probably spend more time doing it right and learning on his/her own time to do better. Look for EAGER and ABLE instead of "certed" or qualified.

You can probably offer a lower entry level salary ,with increases as needed, and get better results if you think outside the box and findsomeone with the drive and motivation to do well.

by nettek

I wanted to bring in someone fresh out of tech school who was bright, eager, and grateful to get a job. I wanted to start them low on the payscale and give them raises as they grew in knowledge and experience. However, our HR department, in its infinite wisdom, has established salary ranges for particular positions from which I cannot deviate. I cannot hire someone with no experience and then justify paying them what HR says I have to pay them without having my director scream at me. I'll just have to keep searching.

by oz_media

Why does HR play such an important role in many companies?
In Canada, the only use I've ever seen for HR is to have someone to bitch at about payscale.
Why is it that some unqualified personell have been given the task of understanding all the roles of a particular company and it's employees.
They probaly couldn't tell you what ASCII is yet alone qualify someone to work in the field!

I'd tell them to let you hire somone as an intern that is still in school or sponsor a new recruit and payfor his tech education, if you pick the right person for this, the loyalty and dedication will be amazing.

Sure glad i'm not in your shoes, I'd tell HR to F-OFF and deal with the boss myself when they complain, perhapse suggesting new HR staff atthe same time.

Good luck

by zlitocook

had 5 or so years experince in the field. But it sounds like you are looking for a pro to me. I can answer 5 out of the 6 questions you asked but if you do not use what you know. Well it is not lost but it comes back, like riding a wave. You think like a recruter, you are an HR person you need to look at the person and work done.

by jackofalltech

I find it hard to believe that anyone who's been in this field for more than ONE year can't answer those questions! I would expect anyone with even a hobbyist's interest in networking to be able to answer them. What could you possibly expect to DOin a networking job if you didn't know these BASIC facts?

Ralph

by nettek

I, too, am of the opinion that those technical interview questions are basic networking 101. I am in management, and have been doing little hands-on networking support the last few years. Yet, I did not pick those questions out of a book. They came out of my head, even though they are not topics I use every day. If you are currently a network tech, I figured you should now the answers.

by zlitocook

You been on? I have been on 50 or more and have had to learn Linux four types, sun and two types of Windows. I know how to setup a Linux server for any type of use and how to setup security for any O/S. I think that if I forget a question on some simple post I could just have too much to remember.:)

by brian158

I have been working in the IT field for many years now. I can do pretty much anything. But as if I was to go to an interview for a job and asked quetion like those I proable could not answer them. But I could do the task because I have do them. I know what to do and how to do it. I learned all my knowledge for the military. I took a job working for a small company so I could spend more time with my family. I do most of my work from home. (PCANYWHERE Got to love it) But as for asking the questions, why not just test them to see if they could do it for real. Some people can not just blot off the answer out of their head but can do the job from memory because they had done it many times. I know if I was interviewing someone I would rather seethem do the things because then I would know that they are just not book smart but physically able to do the job.

by oz_media

As a former mechanic, I saw soooo many people who could ace the tests but put them in a shop looking at a rusty oily undercarriage, and they are lost.

One guy wanted to wear gloves all day so that he could protect his hands. Ever try threadinga 3/8" bolt into a tight place with gloves on? If you have, send me the photos, I need a good laugh.

hands on knowlegde is a lot more imoportant than book knowledge. I started a career as a contract network administrator without ANY certs, not even a good working knowledge, just an ability to comprehend, analyze and learn. It was several years into this chosen career (not really a career because I've always got other irons in the fire and mainly work in the music industry)before I even hadA+ cert, now hold Master CNE cert but who gives a crap, it's only a piece of paper not an ability.

by djent

You might get the same response with MCSEs. I became a reseller in 1989, dealing to SMB market. NO certs but support many customers networks, in short I have the background but could not pass the first cut for most IT jobs (certs). I learned the hard way but I solve problems for IT managers with certs. There is no substitute for experiance.

by oldefar

I am not sure I see the value of your specific questions to the job responsibilities.

The admin functions are very task oriented with consistent steps. I would expect these to be documented so the key ability is to follow directions precisely.The desktop support is a vague definition. Does this include desktop setup to a standard build (ability to follow directions), or application support (experienced user of the application a real plus), or OS and PC troubleshooting? As a junior network tech, what issues will this person be expected to resolve versus escalate?

Network troubleshooting begins with a knack for looking at how things interconnect in general. Beware of the individual who focuses on protocols and settings first since they tend to get tied up on tangents and symptoms.

I suggest you make sure your questions tie directly back to the role. I would also consider the impact a right answer has on getting the tasks accomplished. You can train the details as needed, but it is much harder to train an approach to the challange.

by riverfreight

Since you are actually looking to hire back one of your buddys that was fired why not just cut the chase and rehire whomever they are. OH! they quit 'cuz of the cuts in pay, I understand.

by riverfreight

I'm sorry it is the most common thing I'm running into after people fired or pay-cut for not keeping up their certifications, the other thing I'm running into is people quitting because they have their pay-cut to increase the profit margin or fired because they do keep up their certifications and the company refuses to meet the required by law levels of pay mandated by the Book of Standards Act that finally went into full effect January twelve or thirteenth of this year with its final minimum wage increase to $6.12 an hour up from $5.65 an hour raised there in 1988 or 1989. No Sauce

by rknrlkid

I read through the other responses, and had to conclude that unfortunately, they are the typical responses.

The fact remains:

Knowledge + experience = whole person.

The "experience vs. certification/knowledge" is really tiring. You have tohave both. You are required to have both if you intend to be a productive employee. If you worked for me, and claimed you only needed experience to do the job, I would look at you with suspicion because from my perspective you are unwilling to show progression or to improve yourself professionally.

I heard the same tired excuses while I was in the military. People would argue how they are good mechanics or good armorers or whatever, but couldn't use the manual or correctly identify parts. I always considered people like that UNTRAINED. If you can't intelligently articulate what you are doing and what you are working on, you are untrained, period. (These same people also wondered why they were passed over for promotion opportunities, but that is another story.)

I don't think what the man is asking is unreasonable. All five of these questions are basic to networking and Windows networking in particular. If you don't know what a default gateway is, or that Windows 2000 usesActive Directory, and has NTFS5 while NY 4.0 doesn't natively, then you obviously haven't mastered the subject.

by brian158

I have all of the above. Certs. experience and book knowledge. But the experience over powers the books. Books are meant to be a guide. It was a former employer who had encourage me to get my certs because of my knowledge. But just like all of the certs I have they are just more things to collect dust. If I was doing the hiring I would find some with knowledge and experience then assit them into getting the certs. As they recieve more certs then I would give them a raise as more certs they gotten they would get the raise. It is a bonus and a goal for them to acheive. They want more money then they will want the certs to make more money. But thats my thoughts.

by oldefar

Rather than pay based upon the value an individual brings to the business, pay the individual based on the paper they collect.

This is much easier for a manager than actually understanding the work his employees perform, how well they perform it,and the benefit their employment brings the employer. The good news is that each year, new certifications are created so the ambitious employee can always pursue the next raise!

by oldefar

My own military experience was in the 1970's with the USAF, and I brought a different set of perceptions from it.

Promotion at the NCO (E5 and above) was an aggregate of skill knowledge (100 points), military and AF knowledge (100 points), performance (130 points), seniority in service and in grade (50 points?), and superior actions as indicated by medals (25 points).

The beefs were mostly along two lines. First were the complaints where a particular speciality had different equipment based on bomber, fighter, or reconaissance unit assignment. Tests focused on the majority area, most often bomber experience, so those in other areas had to study rather than use knowledge acquired by application. The second was that seniority and a badreview, coupled with the promotion count (x number to E5, x number to E6, etc. each cycle) could deny promotion to someone who had aced both knowledge tests.

My observation was that a specialty grade in addition to a rank would have been a betterapproach since many top techs were forced out of work and into management, and that a minimum score on the knowledge tests would have balanced out some of the seniority based promotions in favor of more qualified personnel.

Along the way I acquired enough certificates to paper several bathrooms. However, none of the certificates counted directly. Indirectly, they kept my performance reviews high.

by oldefar

Moving out of the military into the commercial sector I managed a number of technical teams as well as gained business experience.

When hiring technicians, I observed that many managers attempted to come up with a knowledge test for applicants, often with input from their team. These tests generally reflected more about what "facts" the team liked to throw into their reports to show their "expertise" and less about the knowledge necessary to accomplish the work. The key indicator as to whether a question was relevent was whether there was a single specific answer to it. The more specific, the less relevent.

My best network troubleshooter - a former plumber who was changing careers. He had to learn the terminology, but knew where to look for problems based on impacted areas. The guy with the degree who knew all the protocols and all the pinouts - we had to let him go. He never did learn to apply that knowledge to real life.

by generalist

Looking at the questions, I would say that if you just took the Network+ exam, you would be in good shape to be able to answer everything without a problem.

Of course if it has been a few months since you've taken the exam and you haven't been actively working with all the above, you might forget the exact technical facts in a pop quiz situation. It is a matter of using the knowledge on a daily basis or losing it.

I'd guess that it would take about fifteen minutes to answer the questionsif you had your references handy. You would know what and where to look for the exact technical answers and be able to answer what some might call Semi-Trivial Pursuit questions.

by nettek

I was promoted to managment a few years ago, and I have had little hands-on networking support over the past few years. Those questions came from my head, not from a book. If you have been supporting end users for the past 3 or 4 years in a Microsoft environment, on an ethernet network, using the tcp/ip protocol (probably the most common setup you'll find), you should know the answers to those questions.

by generalist

You might be running into a problem with the applicants you want being blocked out by a screening process at the HR level. If having the Network+ cert is a requirement, it could be eliminating network people who have come up through the trenches.
Also note that you can be certified in an area and still not retain the specialized knowledge if the responsibility list at your job doesn't allow you to work in areas where that knowledge is needed. There are organizations that limit what is doneto a network to a small handful of specialists who dictate how things are handled at lower levels. If you are one of the lower level network people, you may be spending most of your time making sure that your client's computers can get email and can access the network printer.

In such a setup, you may have a cookbook of how things are set up and you don't really need to know the answers to the questions you posed because you can't change them.

Those might be the type of people you're getting as applicants, especially if you are looking for people with large network experience.

A better choice might be people who have setup and run small networks for small school districts and community groups.

by rknrlkid

The point of my original comment was that you must have BOTH the certification and experience. Certifications tell me that you care about your chosen profession, that you are willing to learn more and improve yourself, and that you are making positive progress as a person. Certifications show that you are willing to be a professional in a profession, not just someone who has a job.

Its like the old "college vs. no college" argument. Having a college degree doesn't always prove you are "qualified" for anything. (Especially in the computer science field - a common complaint that I hear.) But what a college degree does prove is that you have the capacity for growth and for further responsibilities.

The problem here is that too manyare thinking like EMPLOYEES, and not like an EMPLOYER. An employee just wants to pick up a paycheck. An employer wants a return on his investment in you. So an employer wants you to improve, progress, and show that you are willing to do so.

I can't dissuade anyone from how they think, but I can speak of what I know. If you don't think you need certifications or schooling to hold a job, that's your choice. But don't bitch because someone you consider less qualified gets promoted ahead ofyou because they have certs and college and you don't. (I work at a school that trains computer and network technicians, and hear this complaint all the time.) In the eyes of the bosses and HR, the other person set themselves up for success while you are standing still. The same goes with layoffs. Its not always the most competent who gets the rewards. So if you are the most competent, you need to play the game by the rules so you are the winner, not someone else.

by oldefar

My response was specific to Brian, who seems to want to structure both hiring and compensation on the collected certifications.

by rknrlkid

I had to double check and saw that you were not responding to my post. I stand corrected.

by tim heard

NetTek,

I your company will allow you to work with search firms, I'd like to help. Also, just to show that I'm not going to waste your time, I'll be happy to perform the first search for free, until you fill the position.

I would be happy to prescreen your candidates according to whatever criteria you select, and will provide you the answers to the screening questions along with their resumes.

I'm serious about the offer. If you aren't pleased by my service in any way, you would be under no obligation to have any further dealings with me. If, however, you are happy with the job I do, then I would appreciate the opportunity to continue to help your conmpany for whatever fee structure we can agree on.

Regards,

Tim Heard
Malone Technical
(502) 231-9240
theard@jcmalone.com
www.jcmalone.com/heard.htm

by tim heard

HR is around to try to keep the managers, and companies out of hot water. Because managers have a way of asking questions like, "Are you married?" or "How old are you?" Or they sometime hire in people at absurd rates and leave their employers opento charges of age or race discrimination.

Also, HR exists at the wishes of the managers, to provide a layer of insulation between them and the candidates, and recruiters such as myself. In today's work environment in which many layers of management have been eliminated, hiring managers don't have the time to field calls from every candidate that calls in looking for a job, or prescreen every resume that gets submitted. Often they hardly have the time to review the "top picks" that they getsent from their recruiters.

Really, you can talk badly about the HR departments all you want, but you're really lucky to have them or things would be even more inefficient.

Oh, and it's the HR departments who are working their rear ends off trying to keep their wages competitive from year to year. Granted, they don't always wield a lot of power, so a lot of their ideas get shot down by company CFOs, but they really are trying to do everything within their power to improve your lot in life.

by oz_media

"Really, you can talk badly about the HR departments all you want, but you're really lucky to have them or things would be even more inefficient."
I don't have an HR manager. I'm self em[ployed and in my company I hire new staff (less than 30 so it's pretty easy)and control their wages.

"Or they sometime hire in people at absurd rates and leave their employers open to charges of age or race discrimination."

If my staff complained about what other staff members were being paid, I'd fire them. It is NONE of their business how much other employees earn. I hire people based on specific industry skills and contacts, if one person brings more to the table, they get paid more, bottom line.

As a former mechanic, if I was to complain that BOB the trnsmission specialist made moer than me the Engine Machinist, I would be walking around looking for a job in no time. NORMAL companies keep employee information private, it isn't anynoe's business what another person gets paid, that why we ALL have different skill sets and levels of ability. Otherwise I'd go clean the dumpsters for Microsoft at a software Engineer's rates.

by tim heard

Well, Oz, I wish you the best. I don't recall offhand how large a company must be before it becomes subject to antidiscrimination standards, but I suspect you're close.

Still, I tend to agree with you that for such a small company, a full time HR manager would be a waste of money.

However, my point remains that in larger companies, they play a vital role - though admittedly a very unpoular one.

by rknrlkid

I was in the Army for 21 years, and can relate to what you are saying. More people are promoted in the Army based on getting 100% on a physical fitness test and "looking the part" than for being actually competent.

Still, this does not solve ourproblem. My specific job now is getting people jobs. As much as we hate it, punching certain tickets to get your foot in the door is a reality of the American work force. (Trust me, I do not like it either...I had to get certifications not becauseI am a network technician, but just so I could teach basic computer skills (something I have been practicing since 1987) in a school!)

The military parallel is very appropriate. I saw many people get promoted and be given plum jobs simply because they had jump wings or some other school. Credentials are the currency of the trade. Its no different in the business world. Since the average person hiring scans your resume for roughly 15 seconds, you better have something that sets you apart from the crowd. Voila, we have certifications. Get one of these, and you stand out.

Its unfortunate, but its a reality. So it is the responsibility of the individual who really wants to get a job and keep a job to not only have the certification, but to also be able to back up the certification with action and knowledge. The individuals who the original writer mentioned failed the test.

by oz_media

It should not require multiple annual salaries (for any company) to keep a company from breaking the law. Is your company run by morons who don't understand what politically correct or labour standards mean?
Labout standards are not written by some secret group of witches. This information is as available to employers as it is employees, this is why employees jump at the first sign of abuse.

I have never had a company win a lawsuit against me when I sue them. I have also never had an employee successfully sue me. Most of the time, they have a misconstrued understanding of the law and think they are entitled to something they aren't.

I have worked for some EXTREMELY large global corporations handling in the field of quality assurance and marketing and never saw the reason for HR other than cutting paychecks or deposits.

My brother is a corporate lawyer and partner of the largest cable/video corporation in the country, HR has only a basic, working knowledge of employment laws/standards and in no way can be seen as corprate legal protection, otherwise they'd be getting HIS paycheck (I know I wish I was).

They are there because someone named a department HR, to be politically correct as opposed to Payroll chick or Hiring Gal's, every company feels a need to have an HR department, otherwise they just wouldn't be seen as 'important'.

Next time your company faces a lawsuit, send your HR team instead of a lawyer, the boss will be happy to save all the legal fees but the lost suit may be expensive.

by oz_media

"antidiscrimination standards, but I suspect you're close."

How so? I don't live in the States, in Canada we can take a little smack in the face without crying about our personal rights being violated. Our Premier gets away with choking people that piss him off, you think that I would lose a lawsuit for firing someone that I deemed incompetent?
Bottom line, if I fired someone for being fat and ugly, all that needs to be said is that I don't think the person has lived up to company expectations or that the person didn't do his/her job to MY satisfaction.
Welcome to the unemployment line. HR my ass, talk about a manufactured role!

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