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what a piece of paper .....

By Kima ·
Here is my issue, I want to know what a piece of paper has to do with your brain. If you have experience and a vast knowledge in the IT field, why are recruiters and employers so concern about a piece of paper.

As far as I know a piece of paper means nothing. I went to a Technical School which I'm still paying and I knew more than the teacher, I'm currently working part-time for a training school as a Technical Trainer and I have sit down on some MCSE classes, most students are just concernabout making money once they finish the certification. They have no other training such as A+ and its not even required for them in order to take MCSE 2000.

I might not have any certifications because right now finances are low, but I have extensive knowledge in a various field of IT. Althought I don't have the finances right know I still believe that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER and it is my responsibility to acquired that knowledge regardless. I am currently studying and designing training material for MCSE 2000. Again, I just want to understand because I'm very frustrated with employers who just a person by a piece of paper...

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Keep at it

by SBWorks In reply to what a piece of paper ... ...

I'll toss my 2 cents into the ring on this one:

a.) I'd say go for a smaller company where the needs are more important than the flash of a certificate. You're NOT going to be paid as much, though.

b.) Be willing to do a "I'll take a lower wage for X months so you can see what I can do, then we'll renogtiate to.." angle. Make sure that there is some sort of written correspondence to back up the conversation about wage.

c.) Look in the non-profit sector. Similar results based attitude as smaller companies.

d.) Suck it up and take two MCP tests - $100 each. If you pass one, you get at least one piece of paper.

e.) If you are ex-military, the VA is now considering Microsoft's licensing costs as legititate training expense and is reimbursing it through the GI Bill.

Experience that shows on a resume can be almost as good as a certificate.

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Very good advice..

by Kima In reply to Keep at it

Thx, I'll keep your advice in mind. I don't mind negotiating for a lower salary until I prove to them my skills. I get paid $25/hr as a part-time TECHNICAL Trainer at the Department of Treasury, but I need a full-time job. I don't get enough hours,excellent pay, but just not enough hours.

I'm very much willing to negotiate even if I have to do some Administrative work along with IT work, I don't mind I just want to do what I love the most. COMPUTERS...

In regards to the test, I am getting ready to start taking them next month...

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A piece of paper

by Jetpack908 In reply to what a piece of paper ... ...

You are so right, i spend 2 and a half year on a computer shool in Denmark about 10 year ago and most of my colleqe do not even use it for some things to day, so i thing it is a vast of good time, many of them can't use it for eny things to day since they have been "out of the business" for to long time

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Kima, I always like your posts :)

by admin In reply to what a piece of paper ... ...

and I too think that knowledge is power. However, so is paper.
This is a true story. I ended college after four years with one class remaining. I did it to make a point -that what I learned was valuable and the diploma didn't matter. It was a mistake. Several years later I went back and got the paper. Why? Did I suddenly value it? No. But other people do. The bottom line is that you make more money, get more positions that you want and generally do get to do more important stuff if you have this. Is it stupid? Yes. Does it help you in your crusade against stupidity? Yes.
I understand your ideals and your lack of money, but as you gain experience and have opportunities to get paper, do so. Even if it doesn't help your knowledge or brain (and who knows, you can learn something almost anywhere, even school) it will help you achieve your goals in life. I wouldn't totally get a degree I wasn't interested in or anything, but if you get an opportunity to get an MS, Sysco, or Networking cert through work relatively easy -take advantage of it. One of the problems with this field right now is that people are going into it only for money, not because they love it -you are right. But you will be in it long after they are gone 'cuz you love it. This will always work out for you in the long term, especially with your experience, knowledge and certs.
Sorry if I sound preachy, but forget about the bad recruiters and people in the field only for money. Focus on your future and getting into a position where you can make a difference. Infiltrate and Devastate, revel in the glory of the ashes and build something new. This is were the power is, and you'll get there faster with some paper in your toolkit :)

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Society needs a way

by Achurra, In reply to Kima, I always like your ...

to weed out people. Imagine if employers had no way of determining who was best qualified for a job. Let's say an employer gets 100 applications. Is the employer going to give each of them a chance to prove themselves until they find the best of breed. No. Society needs a way to be able to weed out individuals, Certifications can speak more than a thousand words on a resume. For one, it proves that an individual is not a quitter, has drive, commitment, capacity and logic skills. You can be the smartest person on earth, but how are you going to prove it to a recruiter when 100 other people are interviewing and you only have 5 minutes to make your case. Sometimes it might work, but most of the time, employers wonder what is wrong that the individual was not capable of getting a certification. Excuses as money is not an option as many people like myself, self study. A test is $100 and the books are relatively cheap.

My advice, if you want to work in the IT field, get certified. C'mon,if you had an illness and was shopping around for a Doctor, would you go to one that you didn't know and didn't have any credentials or would you go to the board certified with many books and degrees under his/her belt.

Food for thought!

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Re: Society needs a way...

by Kima In reply to Society needs a way

If employers want to know who is better qualified.

OK let's put this way HACKERS have no certification, are usually teenagers with no HS diploma yet, and know more than most of us, why!! let see they believe that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!! , that if they can get trough a system, the administrator WHO HAS A CERTIFICATE, who should know the vulnerabilities of his network was NOT SO GOOD at implementing a tough SECURITY, why!! Hmm cause there are lots of them that don't bother to learn anything else but what they learned in school, cause the majority of people that are certified enter the field just because they been told they will make $65,000 thousand dollars a year if they had that little piece of paper on them. On the other hand they don'treally know they have to keep up with technology and continously learn new things besides what they learn in a classroom.

Yes,I guess I have no other choice but to please employers and get a little piece of paper saying I KNOW THIS. The way I seeit, If you have a CERTIFICATE but no experience,you don't get a job, If you have EXPERIENCE but no certificate you don't get a job, and if you ARE OVER QUALIFIED with EXPERIENCE & A CERTIFICATE you don't get a job cause you are overqualified!! so what's the point.....

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Thx for your input..

by Kima In reply to Kima, I always like your ...

I am planning in taking my exams starting next month.

The problem with employers as I see it is that they really believe people with a piece of paper know a lot.It doesn't always work that way. As I said the students that attend the technical training at the school I am working part-time don't know anything besides plain networking, A+ should be a requirement and is not.

Yes I might not have a degree but here is what I can do and I have experience on:

- OS installation (clean, upgrade) for Win95/98/NT/2000/Linux, Configuration & troubleshooting
- WinNT Administration
- PC/Network troubleshooting, configuration
- Hardware/Software installation, configuration & troubleshooting
- Software Technical Writing
- End-User MS Office training (group or individual)
- Reasearch in multiple languages (French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese)
- Graphic Design & alterations
- Data Recovery, Password Recovery (WinNT,Win98,Win2000) with the new tools this is very easy...
- International Accounting (AP/RP)
- Data entry, 70wpm
- 6 years Administrative Assistant II
- 2 years Network Administrator Assistant
- Management experience
- Translation (english-spanish, portuguese-spanish-english)
- Presentations
- Basic Security Testing (have all the tools for it & plenty of manuals easy to follow)
- Fluent in English & Spanish, basic spoken arabic, reading ability in french,italian, portuguese
- Basic HTML see my site

I haven't update it yet, I am concentrating on studing toward MCSE 2000 and designing training material for it.

Just crack some web tools for home training, and I'm not a shame of saying I crack programs, as far as I know every adminI know does the same thing...

So the only thing I am missing is a piece of paper saying I know all this....

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Paper = 'License'

by generalist In reply to what a piece of paper ... ...

Consider the paper to be a kind of driver's license used by some HR departments as a justification for hiring. If you don't have that license, the HR department can't justify hiring you without putting their necks on the chopping block. (Hiring you without the 'license' could mean that their jobs would be on the line...)

That said, having that driver's license doesn't indicate how good a driver you might be. It only indicates that you passed the driving test and at least know some of the basis rules of the road. It doesn't cover tendencies to forget basic safety actions(anti-ESD measures) and how to 'drive' things like Win9x, WinNT, DOS and Win2K in a variety of conditions.

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by d.fletcher In reply to Paper = 'License'

I think this is the best angle on the industry quals question I've ever seen....

Wish I'd said that, but as a wise man once said, I will.....

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Too many ...well...morons

by Don Kheedic In reply to Hmmmm....

I am beseiged by losers trying to be somebody. Sheesh.

You surely will bite your fingernails and wonder anxiously if you will gain my favor. Thank you for fulfilling the 'drone' and 'worker-bee' function in life. I will preside over you in themeantime and pay you live-in-an-apartment wages.

Sigh. I had better expectations of adult humans.

-Signed 'Continually disappointed in intellect quality'

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