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What About Global Warming?

By FluxIt ·
I read through several Global Warming threads and saw many things that were curious. Then I came across this article:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

While I have not made a decision on the human contribution to Global Warming, I have a tendency towards a neglible impact. I believe that Global Warming is a natural process and that the natural has a greater impact on the climate than human influence. Certianly, humans cause an impact but it is usually a whisp in the spanse of time and space.

What do you think about the article?

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I hate to rain on your parade

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to What About Global Warming ...

But Abdussamatov's was one of the ones insisting that drinking several gallons of Vodka per day had no scientific adverse affects on the Human Anatomy as Vodka is All Natural & Organic. Some of his detractors pointed out that Opium was Organic as well but not something that you want to be using at all but he chose to ignore this point of view.

When you are talking about millions of tons per year of CO2 being pumped into the Atmosphere above what is naturally occurring and the removal of vast amounts of Carbon Sinks in the form of Forest Removal there has to be some form of impact on the Planet even if it is only a a whisp in the spanse of time and space it's still possible to destroy the Human species and no one will notice in the overall scheme of things.

Today there is no argument about Refrigerant Gasses that where being used where destroying the Ozone Layer and after legislation was invoked to prevent the continued production of these gasses the controversy disappeared over night as well because the makers didn't any longer have a cause to fight or fund.

Col

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Huh, There is a Different Thought on that...

by FluxIt In reply to I hate to rain on your pa ...

The refrigerant gases that were illegal during the 90's are available again today in the US. The original AC system for my 1990 pickup is fully available after being forced to convert it in the mid 90's. The dang thing has never worked under the new system. And every other nation around the world never complied with those requirements.

The issue has gone away because political entities are now focused on Global Warming hoopla.

I read one posting in another thread indicating based on the EPA numbers that the US contribution was realistically small on a global scale. I took those calculations and computed the percent of standard density of pollution to be less than 3 times 10 to the -7th power. That is really nothing.

When I look at the events on a solar scale the human influence is really unmentionable.

I ask how many people remember the Times Beach or Love Canal? How many remember the acid rain problem or lakes and rivers that spontaneously combusted? Those were honest issues but most do not recall and many have never heard of those things.

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Everything that you are describing is wrong

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Huh, There is a Different ...

Firstly the stated amount of CO2 produced isn't the real amount it's CO2 produced per $ of GDP so you are seeing a fixed value which can allow the amount to actually rise without causing anything else to happen.

As for the acid Rain and other items like the Spontaneous Combustion of water ways this can all be traced directly back to industry polluting so if Man can cause Acid Rain and Waterways to spontaneously Combust why is it so hard to believe that he is incapable of adversely impacting upon the planet. He has already done this on numerous occasions with the latest being the introduction of Unleaded fuel who's main byproduct of combustion is H2SO2 which combines with some free radical Oxygen atoms in the atmosphere and returns to earth as H2SO4 or in layman terms Sulfuric Acid.

As for the Refrigerant Gasses you are wrong we used to use a gass called R12 which was very damaging to the atmosphere and it's production has been banned. Initially this was replaced with R36 which required a expensive conversion which very rarely worked but since that time an inert gas called R22 has been developed which will work as well as R12 used to in the older AC units.

Col

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The Problem Is

by FluxIt In reply to Everything that you are d ...

that those things like acid rain, Times Beach, Love Canal, and lakes\rivers combusting were very observable with real results. These Global issues are not so observable. We are shown images of snow caps that have melted but we do not know the full truth there. The earlier picture could have been taken following an abnormally cold winter and the subsequent picture is closer to normal conditions. Routine thraws are normal. If they never happen then the mountain caps would be caked in 100's of feet of snow and ice.

I know I can legitimately purchase R12 and the original A/C system after being banned. And I can get it from the dealer. In fact, my immediate boss has a permit to purchase R12. That argument is closed. I know you are not completely incorrect but regarding the availability of R12 you are.

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The sale and use of R12 continues to be restricted.

by deepsand In reply to The Problem Is

See
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/subrecsm.html

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Very Interesting

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to The sale and use of R12 c ...

Here except for recycled R12 which by now is in minute amounts there is no new R12 being made or allowed to be Imported into AU. My brother in Law has a Car AC service Business and that's how I know exactly what's going on here in AU.

The very last time that I ever saw a Bottle of R12 was when I was consulting for Ford and at one of the smaller Country Agents they had 1 part filled Bottle of R12 still on hand in 1998. Other than that one I haven't seen an R12 Bottle that actually contains Pure R12 around since. Quite a lot of these R12 Bottles are used to recycle the Refrigerant after purging the AC Systems as here at least there is no further use for them.

Col

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re. "These Global issues are not so observable"

by deepsand In reply to The Problem Is

The evidence for such is not comprised of photographs, but of a substantial body of data re. atmospheric composition, temperatures of land, ocean and atmospheric masses, amounts and wavelengths of Solar radiational infux and terrestrial efflux, over a sufficient span of time, that now demonstrate a net gain in Earth's total thermal energy in direct proportion to the amount of IR reflectants in the atmosphere.

Photographs of the diminuation of glaciers, snow caps, ice caps and ice shelves serve only as anecdotal evidence of such that is visible to the human eye.

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The truth is out there. Your refusal to see it does not negate it.

by Absolutely In reply to The Problem Is

"The earlier picture could have been taken following an abnormally cold winter and the subsequent picture is closer to normal conditions. Routine thraws are normal. If they never happen then the mountain caps would be caked in 100's of feet of snow and ice."

The pictures to which you have alluded are matters of public record and available to you with a minimum of effort. If you dispute the veracity of one or more of them, the data to support or disprove your claims are also available, if you are industrious enough to seek them. Unless and until you do, what you state "could have been" done has no relevance, except to those who are as easily persuaded to doubt as they are to believe.

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Pictures

by Oz_Media In reply to The truth is out there. ...

OKay this global warming BS is getting offensive now. There are so many people refusing to accept our harmful emissions as a contributor to the depletion of teh ozone layer that it is becoming harder and harder to see reality throuh the smog.

Reasons to NOT control our emissions:

Wildlife will die anyway, polar bears etc. ice melts, it's all a natural phenomenon....we think.

Political fear, it is all a ruse to gain political favour, they need a smoke screen etc.
And many more unrealistic and misguided reasons I am sure.

Reasons to control our emissions:
They kill us at street leel as we cannot safely breath our emissions (CO - Carbon MONoxide for example that causes a loss of white blood cells and literally suffocates the body)

It is a known FACT that these gases DO harm teh atmosphere, proportions are irrelevant. ANy harm to what we know is already a natural depletion is just careless and irresponsible.

So emissions kill us AND it harm the atmosphere. The only ISSUE is the cost or inconvenience of retrofitting and controlling the emissions.

I see no valid excuse for not following suit and becoming a responsible society, the only problem is that it means left must agree with right, and that canot be so in today's political world of distancing one party from the other.

As far as pictures of natural ice cap metls and other "questionable" photos, we cannot deny the absolute fact that astronauts have photographed the ozone layer from space for decades and it is VERY clear that it has thinned.

Are our emissions the cause of this? NO I don't believe so.

Are our emissions contributing to this? Yes, there is little to debate that emissions do add to the natural ozone breakdown.

So why haven't we made a move? Do we need ot see 100% proof that it is unconrtollable before we start to act? If so, why? Stupidity? Laziness? Mere cost?

How much money would be acceptable in order to save the planet from our emissions?

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"So why haven't we made a move?"

by Absolutely In reply to Pictures

As far as pictures of natural ice cap metls and other "questionable" photos, we cannot deny the absolute fact that astronauts have photographed the ozone layer from space for decades and it is VERY clear that it has thinned.

Are our emissions the cause of this? NO I don't believe so.

Are our emissions contributing to this? Yes, there is little to debate that emissions do add to the natural ozone breakdown.

So why haven't we made a move?


Um, Oz, I don't know where you were in the 80's, but we have moved on the ozone depletion issue, and my understanding is that it has helped.

Reducing carbon monoxide emissions from my gasoline engine would mean that more efficient combustion is occurring, meaning that I'm getting more horsepower for the gasoline I'm already buying. I'm for it. You however seem more enthusiastic about it, so I invite you to create that more efficient engine, or zero-emissions engine.

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