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What to do?

By Jaqui ·
since, fom what I see in this discussion:


it seems we can say that we are generally in agreement that something needs to be done to clarify
programming definitions, for both ourselves and for employers.

Title: Application Developer
Duties: To create applications, such as ms word, excel, oracle, interbase, apache.....

Title: Systems Developer
Duties: code operating systems.

Title: Business Logic Developer
Duties: script db queries, spreadsheet macros, websites.....

I'm just using these as a suggestion, for getting the ball rolling. I'm sure that a list of titles and duties associated could be far more comprehensive, possibly going into far more specific areas.

additions and suggestions anyone?

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I don't see it happening

by jdclyde In reply to What to do?

as many people that do half of this have no business according to their job description doing most of it.

And with consolidation of jobs, I have seen the names are becoming MORE generic again as far as the employer is concerned.

Remember, your talking to the data entry people that think they "know" a package because they can type data into an excel file that someone else created for them.

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if the it heads

by Jaqui In reply to I don't see it happening

started pushing this type of detailing out as required to be employed.
then it would happen, in time.
but until it department heads start saying that an application engineer and a business logic developer are two entirely different disciplines you can expect to watch it drop even more in starting wage areas, and skill levels deteriorate as those that do understand the distinctions retire.

wait until you have only business logic developers to build embedded applications for..say a blackberry.

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that already happens

by jck In reply to if the it heads

my title is Senior Programmer.

*) I write applications
*) I design and administrate MSDE/SQL Server databases for my applications
*) I help troubleshoot PC and network issues
*) I handle tech support issues
*) I help analyse and refine requirements for RFPs going out to perspective bidders for technical projects in IS here

So...which does my boss do:

give me a more broad, important title for more money?

give me individual titles and pay me accordingly for everything I do?

Give me a title like "Senior Programmer" and stick in my "Job Duties" section the task item "And other job functions as deemed necessary by the supervisor and/or director" and pay me the same amount as he is now?

They took option 3. Generic line...no more money...forces me to work more if they need me.

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by Jaqui In reply to that already happens

a set for describing the skill sets for programming:

[systems:software:business-logic {Developers}]

a systems level developer has the skills to develop applications.
an applications level developer has the skills to develop business logic scripts

avoid the help desk, be an obnoxious sob that's rude and insulting to everyone.

some programmers have mastered the last so they don't get asked to help others. :)

my point is, if we don't push for the change, it won't happen.

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Specialization is for insects.

by sjohnson175 In reply to well..

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balanceaccounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, giveorders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die gallantly.

Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. HeinleinThe Notebook of Lazarus Long."

I believe this should be applied to IT. JCK sounds like what I have come to call a "Technologist". I aspire to be one myself.

We seem to be a dying breed in IT and I don't believe it's a good thing.

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by tagmarkman In reply to Specialization is for ins ...

I like Heinlein's writings...

But let's face it... given a limited amount of time we can only learn and experience so much... If we were all generalists, we'd still be in the stone ages.

Even in the army... You start off knowing nothing, then you become a specialist... eventually, if you prove you can handle the broader picture (among other things) you might be able to become a generalist (a general).

The corporate world is similar. You go in knowing next to nothing, you specialize to prove that you are useful, then later, when you can handle the broader picture (among other things) you might be able to become a generalist (manager, director, etc)... if that is your goal.

Sure we can do a lot of things but we can't do everything... even if we "knew" how to do several diverse skills (which we often do), most people are not there best when required to do several of them on the same task. If a programmer writes something and they are the one that do the testing for production... I can assure you that more bugs would slip through the cracks (assuming otherwise an equivilant skilled tester). (doesn't matter if the programmer is equally good at development and testing).

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by Tony Hopkinson In reply to Heinlein

That quote was from Lazarus Long aka Woodrow Wilson Smith, he was hundreds of years old.
Not mad keen on specialisation myself.
Quote from Bob

An expert is someone who knows nothing about anything else and yet believes their expertise carries over to any other field.
Met a few and they are damned annoying.

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by tagmarkman In reply to Heinlein

"An expert is someone who knows nothing about anything else and yet believes their expertise carries over to any other field."
I thought an expert was someone that has advanced level of skill or understanding in a subject or trade (usually of more than two years experience). I thought the person you described was just a narrowminded *** with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. :)

"Met a few and they are damned annoying."
As have I.

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No you're both wrong!

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Heinlein

EXPERT is made up of the derivatives of two old Laotian words "EX" being the unknown amount, number or whatever and "PERT" being nothing more than a "Drip Under Pressure."

I've meet more than my fair share of these type of people and to call them Dammed Annoying I believe is the Understatement of the Century!

Col ]:)

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My Last One

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to What to do?

Duties: to set the technology path, interfacing, top level design etc

Systems Engineer
Duties : Detailed design at a component level to implement the Architect's designs, and facilitate the devlopers tasks

Application Developer
Duties to put together applications meeting the current UI specification coding standards matching the known business requirements.

I believe programming as in the old definition of coder is almost extinct now. Though I must admit outsourcing 'development' effort could bring that one back, as in translating a detailed design into the target programming language. Though that's not necessarily a good thing, as coder's coded what they were told to, whereas developers should be capable of realising that the Systems Engineer can occasionally screw up by the numbers and having a much better view of the big picture than the coder did.

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