What to do??

You need to quit. But, don't burn any bridges. You will not please him no matter what you do.

dol rules only apply to hourly employees. Most IT are salaried and get worked like a dog.

I sued my former employer for wrongful dismissal after I was let go because of a workplace related injury (carpal tunnel syndrome). Because this is Canada, the law does not allow employees to sue for injuries that are covered by Workplace Safety and Insurance payments (I was covered under this government program but all my expenses were charged back to my employer) so I could only sue for wrongful dismissal.

It was a long, hard road. I had to change lawyers once and again, because this is Canada, I had to pay my legal expenses up front. After 3 years of fighting, my former employer blinked first and I ended up with a modest settlement, after my legal fees are taken into account.

The reason I did this was that after a long time with that employer, I felt an obligation to the co-workers who came after me. Someone had to make the company realize that they have to take care of their workers and that their actions in attempting to cover up my injury and letting me go because of it were the wrong thing to do.

If you feel that you can truly justify taking legal action and that you can stand up to the pressure, check with a lawyer and see if you have grounds. Just remember, launching a lawsuit is very stressful, expensive, and time consuming.

... be sure to tell him that they have a need for more suicide bombers in his native country. Surely lying in heaven with 17 virgins would make him more happy than terrorizing you folks.

Hostile Work Environment.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3898/is_200412/ai_n9471023

There is something better than unemployment. It's called hang in there and work hard at getting your next job. It's tough having to jobsearch and hold down a job we know BUT:

I worked with long term unemployed professionals for a number of years - helping them back into work. They all had similar stories of taking the redunancy money, quitting because the hated their boss and failing to get a new post!!

**IT IS EASIER TO GET A JOB WHEN YOU HAVE ONE**

Anyone who gives you different advice to that has never seen the damage extended unemployment causes. Do yourself a favour and be responsible to yourself - you will not regret it.

Wayne, you're allowing a jerk to spoil your life. He has a position of authority so it is likely an even bigger jerk owns the company. Get out of there!

Don't just walk out, find a job elsewhere and then walk out. That your are presently employed makes it easier to get a new job and less required that the new employee will go to the existing boss for references.

Life is too short to put up with mistreatment from your family, your government or some jerk who is a boss.

He was a complete @?!King C*!?, but he owned the company and therefore thought he was god allowed to say what he liked when he liked to people!

However He went through 18 engineers in less than 4 years

So I left and got another job

Which pays better

All the people are very nice and helpful

Has a company car

Expenses paid on time

Better prospects

Etc etc

So my advice

Don't be bullied

make a point of telling him you won't be bullied and get another job

Once you go you'll be amazed at how many others follow suit

A manager may not become an arse by choice, but he/she certainly may be an arse by birth. Simply giving someone a title doesn't automatically confer sanity or skill.

Until a few years ago I would have basically agreed with you. However, then I experienced working with the same type of lunatic described in the original post. I would never have imagined that one person could be responsible for the chaos and hysteria that this person spread throughout her division and the MIS department.

Hmmm, could this be what you're referring to as "maturing"? Or could you be referring to someone who has worked with IT and computers since 1969? Oh wait, that's me!

Or maybe by maturing you're talking about becoming someone who listens to BOTH sides of an issue, rather than assuming that all managers are competent because they're a manager.

If I was you I would definitely start looking for another job! This one is not worth you getting discouraged about the IT field. I had a manager that was very condiscending (sp?) and the only reason she had her position was because her husband was a higher up at IBM. By 6 months I was ready to start dragging that woman around by her hair! So when it came time for me to renew my contract I told them no and I showed them every email and sametime message she ever sent me and told them that she takes advantage of her position and that she really has no business being a supervisor. So a week later I found another job working with great appreciative people and I'm happy again. So don't get discouraged, just find another place of employment and wash your hands of that manager. By the way, does he have a degree or did he just do a crash course and get a certification to make him an "IT Manager"? Best of luck to you.

...like you're more worried about making sure everyone is unemployed and compensated for that unemployment than educating and assisting people in seeking employment that suits them. I own a small company with 5 employees that are compensated very well and have full free health-care, days off, 401K, and bonuses. And I don't sit down with a spreadsheet when I (and my partner) are ready to dole out dough. We know who works very hard and who doesn't (although all do produce). And the last thing samll businesses need is more laws and government regualtions. Want to create a country with 12% unemployment? Let's become more like France and Germany. For people who think unemployment benefits are a good thing, why not go there?

Sure, the goal of the company is to produce profit, and since I started it, why should I not reap the benefit after 15 years? At the same time, I take pride in how we compensate our people. Strangley enough, I am a conservative Republican who has learned that money isn't everything, but an employee who works hard and thinks the same way about work deserves to benefit. On the other hand, I know many LIBERAL business owners who claim like this responder, that government can help you, and are the first ones to screw their employees, because acquisition of wealth is their only objective and satisfaction in life. They would sell their mother for an increase in ROI.

Oh, and BTW, I am an agnostic, so don't serve up any fundamentalist crap. It's about values and nothing more. I feel for the person posting this thread. There is probably no hope at the job, although I would take pleasure in hearing about how he screwed them in court, as I would be afraid in the state of NJ to treat any employee that way for fear of losing a great deal. There is no excuse for management letting that happen. Reminds me of my days in large corporate America where 80% of the people survived by political gamesmanship, and the other 20% did the work. I wish him well.

..what I hear sometimes. I post this in this level because apparently we have run out of levels. The one thing I like about a 'progressive thinker' is that they always seem to paint a beautiful portrait of what could be. Who doesn't think a janitor isn't a valuable person. But sorry to say, a thousand people can line up for that job. CEO, competent or unknowingly incompetent has a short line. And for anyone who has worked in corporate America, managing there is no picnic, regardless of the perks. I appluded when the recent verdicts were handed down, and frankly I think they should get life. But once again, keep making us like Germany and France, and we will accomplish that goal.

I'm not sure what the dilemma is. Is you still work there it's because you choose to and by extention accept the working conditions. I think one discussion with your boss is enough. After that you can leave or if you think his bosses may not be aware of how he runs things, you can bring it to their attention. Slavery was abolished in this country over 100 years ago.

... and I agree. I was simply saying that the unemployment system could be used as a tool to provide the structure to implement the change in attitudes that I actually am advocating.

Oh, and BTW, I'm an atheist so there isn't any fundamentalist crap. I simply put that reference to my philosophy having some comparison to various other established schools of philosophy such as, but not completely aligning with, nor limited to, Christian thought. I did that because people incorrectly identified my opinion as being aligned with communism.

And I'm self employed. And one day I may employ people in my own business. My point is that everybody has a right to humane treatment. That idea is exactly the opposite of our society's view.

You can't work like this and your boss is unrealistic. Move before the stress kills you or gives you a reputation.
Remember, you don't have to work a that company. So get a good offer and then YOU have a closing meeting.

Josh,

It seems the misunderstanding is on your side. I read through stress junkie?s post.

It's clear that the post is NOT declaring that race is or is not an issue in the IT workplace. The civil rights movement is being used as a possible conceptual template to apply to the plight of employees (with the implied understanding of course, that those who suffered from the racism of the 50s and 60s suffered far more than any IT professional).

CEO?s are given far too much company monies. Their contribution to the company and the funds that they receive are way out of proportion. I find that some of the folks who hold this view are from various ideological backgrounds ? liberals, libertarians and conservatives (usually traditional conservatives ? not neo conservatives).

The post was also clearly not advocating communism. The theme throughout seemed to be that there could be laws that would allow a means (legal actions) to combat poor employment conditions, and to compliment these laws, education in various forms to bring the issue to the forefront. Admittedly there are laws in place, but they don?t seem to be as fair and protective to the employee as they could be.

I seriously doubt your comment that ?our colleges? are telling people that communism is ?wonderful? is accurate. Do you have any notable research to backup this statement? I attended a LIBERAL ARTS college. There, professors did not sing the praises of communism. On the contrary. For instance, my history professor detailed the failure and tyranny produced by attempts at communism throughout history.

I haven?t seen communism praised as wonderful on the Cable and satellite channels that I have either, but then I haven?t seen every channel out there.

I think junkie, you, I, and everyone on this thread have the same goal in mind, and I am encouraged to see so many comments about the subject.

Regards,
Dean

I remember at my old firm when our departments merged, I was part of a group that wasn't liked by new management. They systemically singled out individuals for some sort of petty harrassment. I was caught by the big boss coming in about 10 minutes late twice in one week. (Mind you, he was downstairs talking on his cell phone during business hours,no less). Needless to say I was put on notice and told I would have to email my DR every morning and evening, arrival and departure. After responding with the usual "this reeks of harrassment" etc., I decided have a little fun. I went to the Alta Vista Babel Fish website and translated various greetings which I would email to them daily. "See you later alligator" in French, "I'm in the house" in German and so on. After about a week, my DR came to and asked me if I was having fun. I replied that I was and asked him did he enjoy learning how to say good morning and good night in several different languages. Needless to say that afternoon they told I did not have to do it anymore. (I did, however, send all correspondence from them to my home as part of my paper trail if they tried to push the issue. They backed off.)

The conservative Liberal Federal Government has won majority control of both the House of Representatives (population based elected representatives) and the Senate (state based elected representatives regardless of state size), and in three days will be initiating a bill to remove unfair dismissal laws for 98% of the workplaces in Australia.

Thank you for my window into the future.

1. Most people (Manager's) don't know the real time to complete IT tasks.... have a look at most of the budget blowouts for IT projects. This is because they lack technical knowledge.
2. Your Manager is an idiot ... WELFARE is an important role for a Manager. Maybe he/she was appointed because they know somebody.
3. Planning - I can always see what is going to happen and then I am able to plan ahead. It's a gift I have.
4. I was once in your position, but the advantage I got was I became so experienced that when I left the job, I had three good company's looking for me. (Note: it is usually better to be in a small company, I am in a large company and I am limited to what I can do - too many IT consultants)
4. I had a BOSS who once said ... You will have a good and bad bosses ... live with it.

Lastly, I was in a position that I was expected .... yes ....l to crank out software with bad business requirements, etc. So for you keep the job, but start looking elsewhere. If you have a job interview - say that you are sick.

Hope it helps (NOTE: The IT world is not based on your Manager ... one door closes and other one opens).

In my first IT job, I had a supervisor who was just like yours, except mine liked to use A LOT of profanity. After 6 months of putting up with his atittude, I quit and managed to take him with me. Heres what I did:

Type up a formal resignation letter (2-weeks notice) in which you explain why it is you're quitting. Give it to your superior (the one who treats you like a POS), his superior, the HR director, the CIO, and the CEO.

Within a week, this guy was fired and the HR and IT directors asked me to reconsider my resignation. I would have stayed, but I had already accepted a position elsewhere.

My 2 cents. Good luck!

jmccombie: that's some good advice.

Doing the web development is a good thing. Get as much experience as you can. But as soon as you can, get out of there. Post your resume on monster and some other job boards. Apply at some recruiting companies and let them look for you, since you obviously won't have time. Most people in IT are professional, unlike this guy. So you should be able to find a better job and a better boss to work with - certainly can't get any worse. I have worked in IT almost 40 years, am a project manager, managing intranet web development projects, and have never heard of something as bad as your manager. Good luck!

Hi Wayne62682,

I don't normally reply to these articles, but yours grabbed my attention. I am the owner and manager of a small software outfit, with probably very similar demands placed on me as your boss. My response is a mixture ....

1) What you do in your own time is your own business - tell him to go jump.

2) Unreasonable deadlines never helps anything - software development is a risky business, when you have to quote a fixed price, however pressuring the developers solves nothing.

HOWEVER:

3) While your boss is definitely out of line on several issues, just remember who the competitors are nowadays: China, India, Indonesia, Thailand. They work for peanuts, have no OH&S, and can freely pollute their environment. They are CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP. Our Australian customers who have not got smarter with their IT systems are already disappearing - replaced by factories overseas. You and I have to work hard to help them remain competetive. So, to some degree, YES this is what you can expect from IT: you do need to take responsibility for your output, including deadlines, and you should expect that an IT job will never be 9-5. Bill Gates advertisements with you sitting on the beach with your laptop sipping latte is NOT reality, but is unfortunately what many young folk in particular have been led to believe.

4) Regardless of the above, if you are good at your job, you should be compensated for the additional effort, even if it is in short bursts, with overtime or time off in lieu, or a bigger pay packet. If you are no good at your job, then the boss should encourage you with a positive environment and shelter from the harsh realities of the IT business world. Your part of this deal is to take some responsibility re. deadlines and emergency support activities.

Hope this helps you!

While you have a position now, start looking for a new position. Look now when you are not pressured to take the first thing that comes along. Yes the current situation is not the best to have but it will give the motivation to find a new company that suites your needs. No IT is not a 24 hour job

darinhamer,

You know our economy is not a PURE capitalist market driven economy. It has checks and balances (though sometimes it may not seem like it) that are supposed to offset the effects of excess greed and abusive corporate power and influence. Those checks and balances come from the government (supposedly us ?We the people?). This setup was an evolutionary construction, and over the past hundred years our economy has grown and at times even purred along.

I do not see anyone talking about Utopian Socialism ? let alone run of the mill socialism (except those that I think are mistakenly attributing it to others? ideas). The American Heritage dictionary defines Socialism as ?A social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community."

I don?t believe that this is something that anyone has proposed. For example, Mr. Dell would still own his goods and the distribution of them, and employees would not have ownership of them (unless they purchased some shares I suppose :-)).

Rather than labeling something that it isn?t, and then devoting your energies to ?fighting? it - which if I may respectfully suggest is energy wasted, why not address specific ideas or thoughts expressed in postings stating why it?s a bad (or good) idea?

I do like and agree with the idea of self-reliance and self-empowerment. Absolutely. BUT, there are times and situations when even this is not enough. I don?t know whether or not the topic at hand demonstrates one of those times, but I like the discussion and exchange of ideas taking place.

Regards,
Dean

tHeaNTImIKE,

"Socialism - A social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are *owned collectively* and political power is exercised by the whole community." -- American Heritage dictionary

I don?t believe that this is something that anyone has proposed. Mr. Dell would still own his goods and the distribution of them, and employees would not have ownership of them (unless they purchased some shares I suppose :-)). -- sorry for the verbatim paste from previous post, but I'm about ready to crash.

Also, according to the CIA, the Netherlands form of government is a "constitutional monarchy" (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nl.html#Govt). I?m not saying we should or should not emulate the Netherlands, but that based on the CIA, I don?t believe that they are a socialist state.

I think that under certain circumstances unions may be detrimental to an economy, and in others can be beneficial to an economy. It can also be instrumental in protecting workers. From what I understand unions are supposed to ensure workers have DECENT working conditions and get DECENT pay. I don't have a specific case, but I know that there are various instances in the early 1900s where unions helped prevent the wholesale abuse of workers (ridiculously long work hours, child labor, etc). Current circumstances are surely not as bad as they were back then - and you can thank UNIONS of the past for that! And yes, thank the GOVERMENT as well. It was the establishment of laws protecting workers that improved the life of millions, and that surely helped thousands move up the capitalistic society. By the way the government is us (or it is supposed to be).

But times have changed since then, and maybe unions are not needed as much now as then. And I guess unions, like corporations, can be abusive at times by allowing wages that may be TOO high and much more and above than decent and necessary. I suppose that with the changes over the past hundred years, unions could evolve to adapt so that they would address real contemporary work issues, and yet not be an impediment to economic growth. Otherwise the concept may indeed die then, but for now apparently they aren?t quite dead.

I do agree that self-reliance is definitely a valuable quality worth attaining (and nurturing).

Regards,
Dean

Mitch, I think you nailed the problem ! Yes, it's a very, very logical and sensible assessment of the situation, i especially like the fact that it's always a case of the 1 and 2 you mentioned in the first part of your post. So, to thread this fine line, we gotta make sure we don't go against the bosses too often, yet, we must not always back down. I just faced a similar situation last week, and i had to spill the beans on my superior after keeping quiet for more than 3 years. Insecurity of bosses and their inability to keep cool about it is one major problem in IT. How did it happen? Simple, they sucked their way up and they didn't spend enough time learning. It will always happen, wherever we go, so stick to it and just don't give up !

I would so quit. Oh, and I would do it in some sort of fantastic bold fashion. I work for a small IT service provider. We have four "workers" including the owner. I love the company and my boss and my coworkers and crap, but I loathe some of the customers. Interestingly enough the one I hate the most is our biggest customer, a trash hauling and landfill management comopany. THEY SUCK!!! And I mean that in the most malice filled way possible. Most days spent there for me are not worth the paltry some I am paid. This company takes full advantage of the smaller company that I work for like we are some how owned by them. They don't pay us squat either but the expect us to jump to as soon as they call. I keep telling myself "you have only been at this for 6 months now, you need the experience" but the other voice of reason in my head says "SCREW 'EM!" Sorry about this turning into my rant. BUT, you should definitely get your resume revamped, get it out there and start making some phone calls and sending e-mails. Oh and as for the other people talking about an IT union? I worked for a union for about 8 years and the only thing they ever did was make sure that the people already retired or about to retire were taken care of at contract time and to protect the laziest dead beats in the place while they left the rest of us to twist in the wind!

Hi:

I have to sympathise with you, basically your getting treated like shit, this could be down to a few reasons working on what you?re saying.

Your manager lacks man management skills, and has a sick way of getting around the fact.

He wants to impress other execs and show them what a big man he his at your expense.

I can recommend that he gets on a good man management course give him this link: http://www.managers.org.uk

Working in IT is one of the best most satisfying jobs you can be in at this day and age. You did not go through all your courses, degrees or what ever to be treated like some detainee.

A good IT department works as a team all mucking in together as a tight knit unit. You have to mix with other members of your company so that you know and share their work patterns. This helps you understand what level of service they require.

The myth about IT people being back office Geeks is rubbish. Be noticed be polite to people and when called upon to produce do it with a bit of pride and do it right, so what ever you?re doing works first time.

You have a life and IT is a good career however if I had a manager like yours I would be gone he does not deserve to be doing the job think and treat people like that. I?m sure other IT pros will feel the same.

All IT managers are not power trippers like him.

Keep the ink on your CV wet.

Good luck

Mal

IT Manager

...the employer? How can you compel a person sacked for being a slacker to pay his ex-boss' legal & loss of income costs for preparing for the arbitration?
Sorry, your solution sounds good, but it won't work - it's as inequitable as the current problem.

MH

1 Tell him straight - you will work how you wish to work, not how he wishes you to work
2 Is it Company Policy not to fraternise with others? - if not, ignore his instructions and tell him it aint Comapny policy.
3 If he gets tougher with you than can get tougher with him - find a new job with a rival Company, and write your resignation letter to the Chief Exec

Very Simple...Your decision, weather you know it or not, has been made already, move on..

I was with you until you started talking about insurance. Yes, in America we have the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness, but we're not guaranteed that it will be had. Employers, business owners, etc, in my opinion have a right to have work for them whomever they feel provides the best fit for their organization. Most places are required to contribute to unemployment insurance. In general, where unemployment insurance is available, the only way it can't be claimed is if one quits. The reason an employer gives for terminating an employee doesn't and shouldn't have to be correct from the employees perspective. As long as it doesn't run afoul of the law in that it isn't based on anything that ends in "ism", it is good enough. We are a free society and most employer-employee relationships are at will. Perhaps I misread your post, but it sounds like you're saying that empoyees should have some level of guarantee of being employeed. On that I disagree. The nature of a capitalist society I think is counter to that notion.

The things you mention can be had right here in the U.S. Some seem to forget that there is a relationship between and employer and an employee. No one if forced to take the job that doesn't fit their lifestyle. We tend to view jobs based on the employee's perspective. What about the employer? I don't support a socialist style of living where everyone is essentially at the same level. All work is not equal and those that make decisions that affect the fiscal health of an organization should receive better compensation. If all were the same what would motivate anyone to do better than what they're compensated for? There was a time when unions had a useful purpose, but it seems that in these days they're more motivated about lining their own pockets then they are in ensuring equality and fair treatment of employees. Of course they've also managed to convince many of the people they represent that's not true, but take a strike for instance. The striking workers are out receiving a stipend from the union while union big wigs are still living in relative comfort.

Well that lets him off the hook then, since from all appearances he is an "Equal Opportunity Idiot".

Not all IT workers are exempt from the Fair Labor Act. My company just settled a multi-million dollar law suit with the employees because they mis-applied that Act. Potential employees need to do a better job of researching the position they are considering/being considered for before they accept employment.

The other thing that I've seen mentioned in the last few post, is unions. As much as I am opposed to unions, employees have the right to form one whether the employer likes it or not. The employer has no say in whether a union is formed or not and it is unlawful for the employer to use coercive tactics to try to prevent the employees from forming a union. If enough of the employees want to form a union... poof... it is so. On the same token if those same employees want to disband a union, it is their right to do so. All it takes is a vote.

Very nicely put. Take control of your own destiny and don't leave it up to your employer. Interviews are a two way process. The employer is trying to discern if the potential employee is a good fit for the company, and at the same time the employee "should" be trying to discern if the potential employer (company) is a good fit for them and their needs.

I think unions tend to help some people (sometimes undeservedly) at the expense of others. A simplistic example, but a lumberjack who cuts down 30 trees a day should be compensated more than one who cuts down only 20 trees a day. It is also more difficult to see rewards. Increasing the pay of an outstanding employee usually results in a barrage of grievances from those in the same "job class" as the rewarded employee (especially those who have more seniority). I also tire of seeing promotions given to the "most senior employee who meets the minimum qualifications".

Health benefits? Who do they think they're fooling? They're not providing a damned thing. The part of the premium that "they" are paying comes out of the same funds used to pay you. They're just not paying them to you. Frankly, they can give me that 12k per year and I'll buy my own health insurance. Not to mention that this discriminates against people who are covered under their spouse's insurance. What a racket!

All too often some use the relative success of the civil rights movement as an analogy to whatever their cause is at the moment when clearly there is no connection. Using the civil rights movement tends to hit people at an emotional level which is not where their thinking should be coming from. Their thinking should be based on sound, rational, and well thought out reasoning devoid of emotion.

Racism is still very prevalent in our society. Those that are racist have just found more clever ways of practicing it. All people in our society are still not equal and are not treated equally. Look at the left wing of our government for instance. They create these social programs under the guise of helping the less fortunate when in reality they're only trying build a voter base. Those same programs they create don't do anything to make their recipients more capable of achieving long term prosperity. They only succeed in developing a mentality of dependency and entitlement. Now we have a system where you can get in and have no desire to get out.

The tone of your post sounds as if you're advocating a classless society (read as communism) which I don't think has a place in a free society. With all of our imperfections I wish to remain free. To make a comparison between the CEO and the Janitor is absurd in my opinion. The very nature of their respective job descriptions doesn't allow for that comparison. I don't think that an employer needs to have very many reasons for terminating someone outside of what the law currently limits. To implement your idea means infringing upon the rights of the employer to have work for them whomever they choose to the advantage of the employee.

The education we need is to teach employees about real world work environment, ethics, job search tactics, researching a position, rights in the workplace, interviewing, etc.

You can count me in!

My late pappy was fond of saying that life is like baseball rules, 3 strikes and your out.
Seems that your letting the rules be changed. In effect your saying that your boss is saying 99 strikes and he's out. Really, the lights are out and everybody's gone home. . .

I will tell you that when you are sick, you have less energy and desire to do anything better. Tasks with such a "political timeframe" is often seen. At the same time a lot of people yelling for support. The kind of development is tiring. Without socializing with the users, I believe it is harder to make them accept and utilize your applications. There maybe someone who does it but in turn impose "political timeframe" (easy to fail within, management then takes further action) to you. With limited time and irregular interventions from users, it can not easy to balane both side - support in time and development progree met.

For technical issues, I think you can to post in techrepublic for whatever newsgroup for assistance.

In my point of view, the development should be broken in to acheivable part and not acheivable part, finish the acheivable part then you are almost done. Non acheviable part(within time frame) should be postponed to the latter stage.

You must emphasis to the world that your work is work for their advantage, no matter how tight the schedule is, one it is finished.

It disorders your general life. Getting tension, falling haris, messed personal schedule, which are unaccountable compromises.

Socialize is not permitted ? I think it is "sidesing" problem. Don't worry, you can socialize with a few of your workmate, and Techrepublic member here.

We are all IT guy, we understand your situation.

I have been in this racket 38 years, and nothing changes. The only way to prevent this is to be under contract, where your time costs them money.

Slavery was abolished in the 1860's. It is time to look elsewhere. IF you have the talent, move on. Life is way to short.

Next job: get the expectations in writing before you join. Stick to them. Nice guys are buried with their keyboard in their hands.

Dean,

I appreciate your point of view, and I can't argue with most of what you said. I also like the ability to have discussions and after re-reading my post, I don't see it as attacking something that I have given an inaccurate label to. I was replying to many of the points in stress junkie's e-mail. Some of the things that he was proposing are socialistic in nature.

But, now we are having a discussion about the discussion. Again, I like Mitch's post and think it is the right course of action.

Personally, I feel that your manager is missing one ( if not both) of the vital points of leadership. While in the military, I adopted a principle that I feel applies in any leadership position: 1- Mission Accomplishment and 2- Troop Welfare. Now, you have a job to do and that needs to come first ( while on the job). However, you also need your own welfare, and he needs to provide that. I feel that his requirements are a little rough. He needs to realize that he cannot expect more from you than he expects from himself. If he wants a program done in 3 days, then why in the hell isn?t he helping with it? If he doesn?t know how to program or do your job, then he, as a good leader, should ask you if the goal is possible. If it is, great! Meet the deadline. But he needs to understand that sometimes those goals are not possible and need more time. In IT, there are some things that take time, time that doesn?t meet the time limits enforced on us by business men. If we need to reinstall all systems due to a virus, let?s say, we probably won?t be done in an hour, especially if there is only a small handful of us to do the job.

I am a Mainframe operator and a skilled Network and System Technician.

... what you can expect from IT. Welcome to hell. I.T. is indeed unique. 25 years for me and the labor relation picture has consistently degraded over time. My current company is a fortune-50 company which is a perennial member of the "best places to work" lists. That seems to be so for the business-side. 8:00 - 4:00 with perks, relaxation, and fun. The I.T. side of the house? We budget labor at 65 hour weeks and prevent staff from reporting more than 40, deny after-hours on-call compensation, and reward staff in the quarterly IT meetings based on their "willingness" to make the office their home. No one gets an award for an accomplishment unless management ca tie it to 80-hour weeks. Literally. They even brag about how the campus is a tomb at 5:00 and on weekends except for us loyal IT idiots. My advice - get out while you are young and the golden handcuff is not yet soldered shut. Go to the business side. You are serving the DARK SIDE.

Figarcia, I think you missed the point of the previous post. His point is that you devote yourself to your employer 100%, but to your employer, it is business. The employer is generally not going to be so devoted to you.

Yes, there are times when you will be expected to work some over time and yes you should be devoted. But it is absurd to suggest that you can only work in IT if you sell everything else out for the job. My belief is that if you don't have balance between work and family/home/recreation/whatever, you really can't be all that valuable to your employer anyway. You've got to be able to have a life no matter what field you are in. That balance makes you a better employee.

This is a week after the fact, and there are a lot of postings, and I am guessing that what I am going to say has been said in one or more of the 200+ postings, but:

Look for another job -- now. Get all your team to get other jobs -- leave the guy in the lurch. Here's the deal: he is a "manager" that lives for the adrenaline rush of harsh deadlines and impossible goals and the "glory" of IT. He will not change. Do not expect him to change. Just go.

Until you go, just do your job, do your 40 hours. Do not stay after hours (I am assuming you are salary. If you are hourly, GET OVERTIME). Do not do anything more than your job. This guy does not have 24x7 privileges. Getting weekend/nighttime time from your IT people is a privilege, not a right, and this guy does not get it.

Meet with your HR person, tell them what is happening. He/She will (if this is a reputable company) get this guy some coaching or perhaps ask him to "add value somewhere else". If they don't, if they fire you, sue them.

I am an IT VP for a firm on the west coast. Yeah, IT is an odd job, with odd hours, but it is still a job, and while I expect good, hard work from my team, I do not ask for or expect off-hours stuff without balancing it out with weekday time-off or other perks. I am a software engineer, so I know that good software takes time. Do I cave to my customers? No, I tell them that it will take X (reasonable number) of days/weeks, and that's it. If the customer complains, I ask them why they didn't ask weeks ago for this?

One of my favorite analogies (slightly non-PC) is that you can't have nine women give birth to a baby in one month. People get this. A good manager manages expectations of his staff, his customers, and his bosses.

Anyway, go to HR, and if they fire you, sue. Get a real job (and a real life).

Like with any Mckie Dees job, you give two weeks notice predated two weeks prior.

1. Your environment is not normal or okay, nor is it typical for I.T. You shouldn't ever have to put up with a situation like that.

2. Your boss is a bully. Bullys exist in the corporate world just as they did on the school playground. Do some research and you'll see it fits him like a glove. The research will help you cope until you have a solution.

3. He's abusive. Any situation that results in someone crying is unacceptable, and probably already has broken laws, labor codes, and company policies.

Know that it's not you--it's him. Get armed with information and support, and pick one of the strategies that others have posted. Get a new job and tell them why, or have your co-worker file harrassment charges. Find out if he has a pattern of this behavior, in this company or others.

Good luck. Let us know.

Just to respond to your last post, I totally agree about treating everyone fairly, and I live by that.

Now, and just something to tuck away for the future. When you do, and I hope you do employ people, just remember one thing. They too have the moral responsibility to treat you the same way. I hope you can retain your ideal, as rarely do employees measure up long term - they get bored. Large companies have the luxury of sending people in 40 different places. We do not have that option, but we pay more and don't offer the benefit of meetings, and meetings and politics.

And therefore, one does develop an altered attitude about things. It hasn't changed how we treat our employees, but hardened my attitudes when I hear gripes about things.

In any case, we do agree on something. Cheers.

I've said this before. The thing about these discussions is that they are made up of posts that are written in a few minutes. I expect that if I had taken a week to write a paper on this subject I might have used different examples or different phrases. Unfortunately many of the responses are reactions to those ideas which may have been expressed poorly or which may appear to incorporate ideas which are not intended or which are not directly related to the discussion. In the case of the CEO vs. the janitor I expressed a view about management which I still hold to be true but which is not directly related to the discussion. This view serves only to confuse my point. I could go back and rewrite the post but I think that it is unfair to do so after people have started to comment on a post.

I advocate capitalism. I absolutely do not believe in communism or socialism.

-----

I mentioned the civil rights movement of the 1960s in the US because the example is exactly comparable to what I am proposing. My proposal is intended to address the civil rights of employees. My proposal is intended to change the grass roots beliefs that employer/employee relationships are currently acceptable. Both of these issues were integral to the 1960s civil rights movement. That effort had to address both the injustices based on race and the perception that those injustices were acceptable. In those two respects my proposal is exactly the same as the original civil rights movement. Also, the degree of success of my proposal and the path of progress would also be highly comparable because the same sort of methods would be employed to address the same sorts of issues. So, older people would never accept the new ideas and we would have to wait for them to die off before their malevolence would be removed from society. Young people could be educated to see the merits of the new ideas and some would adopt those new ideas. So this whole proposal is highly comparable to the 1960s civil rights movement because first it is about civil rights of employees, second we are facing the same challenges of changing attitudes, third older people would not be expected to accept the new ideas, and lastly because we cannot expect to achieve complete success even after a generation of striving toward this goal. So while some people may think that I am treading on their territory when I make the comparison between my idea and the 1960s civil rights movement I would respond by saying that civil rights and civil injustices are not the exclusive realm of one group or another. I think that I am completely justified in claiming similarity between my idea and the civil rights movement because my idea is a new civil rights movement.

-----

In any case I thank you for presenting your ideas in a way that encourages discussion. I am delighted that all of the people responding to my posts have apparently maintained a demeanor that has made this discussion very enjoyable to me. I hope that people reading my posts also percieve a calm demeanor in my own posts. I think it's great when we can talk reasonably whether we ultimately agree or not.

I will recommend you to look for a job were you don't have to be subject to that kind of pressure, if 8 or 10 hours aren't enough to do your regular job, they should hire some help for you!

From a different perspective, sometimes our job in IT projects require your mind to be fresh and your body well rest, else you can expect all kinds of "weird" things happening because you were not in your right mind doing work off-regular hours and with a tired mind.

I am agree eventually we need to work long hours and weekend due to the fact we sometimes need to work with equipment when office personnel or production peocesses are not using it, but definitely you should not allow that to be en every day situation.

I am sure there are better jobs as alternative. Tell your boss slavery is well hated anywhere, so are the ones who practice it.

1)Step on his head and talk to his boss or HR.
2) Start sending resumes out. Hang on until new job is found.
3) If you can afford it, get fired and collect unemployment.

Life is too short to work in a dysfunctional environment.

It sounds like you have an untenable situation. It also sounds like everyone in the IT department has the same issues with the boss, with some indiviual variations. My suggestion would be for you all to document your grievances over a period of time, citing specific instances, and as best you can recall exactly what was said or done. Without letting on that you are doing so. Then you are ready to act. You can: get a lawyer, go to the labor/unemployment department of your state, or go to higher-level management. You will probably want to do 2 or all 3, the decision being in what order. I would prefer to see someone specializing in labor law, who will provide free advice and information (there should be a number of organizations local to you willing to do this), document all the while, and then decide how you want to procede.

If you think management would be open to change, then just get your boss fired for any number of violations of company policy, state and federal law.

Of course, the money would probably lie in sueing, since if all of you documented numerous abuses, it would be hard(er) for the company to accuse you of being the problem.

The government route would probably provide a middle-road between the other two.

It also would depend on what you want out of this. Compensation, and perhaps a severance package to look for new work, or to stay with the job, under different working conditions.

Also, you should all start looking for work immediately, because many of the different outcomes would see you looking for work anyway. And if nothing else, the entire companies IT department quitting in a short-period of time, after documenting numerous abuses, should at least make upper-management take notice if they did not before. And I would think the thought of it would at least give you a nice, evil smile.

Wayne, I have been an an IT manager for 8 years in an investment banking environment which is considered to be high pressure. I have come across a manager such as yours. It sounds to me as if he is having a nervous breakdown and or suffers from paranoia. Many IT managers are under a great deal of pressure to meet impossible deadlines set by business functionaries. This used to be the norm and lead to long hours ( amply rewarded in my environment ). What actually happens when people work long hours is their productivity drops, you then get "stay at work and do nothing syndrome" to please the boss. I carefully plan the work involved and get agreement from my developers, if we get slippage it is often due to spec change in a dynamic environment and I have a strict change control process! I admit my approach does not make me lots of friends in the business but they get what they want in a fairly predictable amount of time.

Secondly, judging by your "English twang", I assume you are from the US. In London, I had the misfortune to work for a New Yorker who was similar to your boss. He was so money motivated and personally greedy for more, he lived at work, he spent most of that time criticising others ( we call it back stabbing ) and Politicking. He was hated by all but presented a sane and reasonable facade to the business sponsors who loved him. I got so fed up with him that I raised awareness of the circumstances to anybody that would listen! It fell initially on deaf ears so I resigned. At the exit interview I destroyed the guy. I heard 3 weeks later he was fired. My advice... Walk and Destroy... its a dog eat dog world with these people. If enough people do it, he will get his come-uppance sooner or later. Dave.

PS If you decide to stay, there is a book out by some french woman on how to waste time at work! It sounds like a humerous read from what I hear.

OK, 0.25% growth is still growth. In the UK we laugh heartily when we hear about two weeks holiday in the US, whats the point having growth and dollars when you haven't got the time to spend it or spend any time with your family. One thing about Americans is that they constantly jabber on about money and dollars and cars and so on but they are mostly miserable. Another point about tax I went to New York last month and stayed at the Sheraton Manhattan just up from time square. The face value of the room was $189 but with state tax, bedroom tax!*?!, and some other tax it came to $400 or so. In England you pay the price as advertised... who's being conned!

You're in a jam here and employment law is different in your
country than mine but it sounds to me like this manager is out
of control and you have genuine grievances. nA lawyer or a
union could help you go through the process of shaking this guy
off. His own manager might like to know what a mess he's
making of his own job. If he makes unrealisitic demands on you
and over-promises, it's going to come back to haunt him one
day and soon by the sound of it.

If you're not up for the confrontational route, you might want to
draw his attention to this website:
www.missioncontrol.com to help him get his life back and start
doing what really matters to himself and the company rather
than hitting you guys with his neuroses. In the UK to to
www.leadingworks.com who do the same stuff on this side of
the pond.

Good advice from Pamela. Regarding the sexual harrassment, it would really be your co-worker's battle, not yours, but she should be able to count on you for support should sexual harrassment charges be filed. Regarding any kind of legal action on your part, consult an attorney, check any employment contract which you may or may not have had to sign. Look esepecially for references to the working conditions you're complaining about.
And finally, look for another job. Dump this one as soon as possible. Nobody has to work under these conditions. Eventually your boss will get his butt in trouble for all the problems you've described. In the meantime, you have a life. I've been through the same scenario myself (minus the sexual harrassment). The best thing I ever did was dump the job and the turkey. I never regretted having more time for my family.

Hi Wayne,

I applaud you for doing the thing that is difficult for many of us, that is, asking for help.

I used to be this guy, your boss, or at least a variation of the frightened, self-centered, workaholic, controlling character that you have described. In my experience, this guy is not specifically doing this to Y-O-U. He is simply doing it. He would treat anyone else in your position the same. Regardless, that doesn't make it fun or any easier for you.

I'd suggest that if you enjoy this company and your job there (minus the boss), to talk to your boss' boss and/or your HR department. If you don't, start looking elsewhere for an employer that will appreciate you (if you haven't already!).

Personally, I know that it is possible to work (in IT or otherwise) and have a life. I've been in my current position for over six years. During the first two, I worked 90-100 hours a week and expected my employees to do the same. I'd done that most of my life. It's a miracle that my wife (of almost eight years) didn't leave me! In the past four years, my average work week (and that of the folks that work for me!) has been 45 hours or less. Given, there are sometimes when a switch dies, Citrix burps, or dozens of other things happen to trigger alarms in the middle of the night and I have committed to respond. But, these are exceptions and part of the job.

Today, I continue to maintain the reasonable work hours AND I have a life, a beautiful wife, a 2 yr old daughter, and another kid due in less than six weeks. Just two weeks ago, I took my daughter on her first fishing trip. Now that's what life is about!

Work to live, not live to work!

Give me a holler if you find yourself in Nashville. :)

is the rule of the day.
There will always be people who oppress others just because they can. The solution is not in vast emotional social upheavels, or stringent government intervention. Those entities often set the bench mark for oppression.
The solution to wayne62682s problem is as simple as these two words. COURTESY....RESPECT
Give them to all without reservation, demand them from all whom you give them to.
It's just that simple.
If you won't give them then leave. If you can't get them then leave.

Things have subsided a little bit right now.. but we are both looking. My co-worker won't stand up as much as I will because as she puts it, she has bills to pay and would rather deal with the BS and get a paycheck. I sort of understand..

Thank you all for the advice!

"You can't get rich on 40 hours a week."

Now taking my tongue out of my cheek, let's be realistic. This particular job sounds like it sucks and you should probably quit. But in general, I have no patience for the 8-5, "complain because I have to work" crowd.

It's simple economics, supply vs. demand. If you can get a better job, do it. If you can't, shut up and get back to work.

Well...

As a CEO, I would immediately fire a manager like yours. No results besides making co-workers feel like prisoners. This a typically paranoid (the true medical meaning) personality. You have no choice but either go to your CEO with your co-workers with precise complaints and make your manager be replaced asap, or find another job. The best would be that your 3-persons team resigns at the same time. You have much more power than you imagine. Once again, I know the problem form the "other side". If a whole team resigns, or at least warns that it will do so, I first have interviews with the management chain. Just because I know that in such cases, the problem always lies into bad management practice. I wish you good luck and hope that you will find a solution fast!

...even though, from American culture's perspective, he'd be called "high functioning." This guy is living at a level of fear that you would find incomprehensible if he were able to verbalize his interior process to you -- though it's unlikely that he can verbalize it even to himself. My guess is that he secretly believes he's an incompetent POS and is scrambling like mad to cover his arse. He's headed for substance-abuse and/or an early heart attack and doesn't care who he takes with him.

The suggestion of taking a tape recorder to your next meeting is a good one. Actually, first I'd have him put his expectations/stipulations/restrictions in writing. You have the right to know what is expected of you. There are a lot of other rights you have (including the Constitutional one of Free Association), so talk to someone from Labor and Industries to get some clarity on just what they can and can not ask of you.

Be prepared to stand up for yourself by walking out. IT can be high pressure, but what you're under is crazy-making and destructive.

I too was in a similar situation at my earlier company. The only difference was the company was big and there were some processes in place. The entire team complained to the CIO. My manager was 'slapped on the wrist' once. But the second time such a thing happened, he was asked to leave the same day...

I am actually suggesting something drastic here... be sure if you want to do this...

What can your manager do if all of you tender your resignation at once?? (of course you need to have another job on hand)...

If anything that is bordering on illegal is occuring (which you intimate), get your ducks in a row, write everything down and file a formal complaint with HR. Period.
Other than that, write everything down (for your exit interview), dust off your resume and start shopping. In short, prepare to leave. I am in a similar situation myself and unfortunately, I am stuck here for at least 3 more years for family reasons. I will tell you that your family and health are a hell of a lot more important than your career. If you are relatively young and skilled, which it sounds like you are, there is work out there for you which doesn't involve become a white-collar slave.

Just my opinion......

If this is the reason unions were formed then my already strong dislike of them is now being support by their incompetence, although I applaud their ability to convince their membership that they are a necessary entity. The same reason you state as a need for unions also applies to unions. The suck their membership for as much dues as they can and only pay lip service to the needs (actual or perceived) of their members.

Stress Junkie, I appreciate your well thought arguments and logic; however, if you truly feel this way, join a union. Unions were formed to perform precisely the functions you desire.
Other than that, and please don't take this the wrong way, take responsibility for yourself. Don't expect a nameless, faceless bureaucrat to care enough about you (or anyone else) to actually solve your problems. Legislating anything is usually the road to perdition. Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" to see what I mean.

I also had a former employer who would ask me to do the impossible, i.e. finish a month long project in ? the amount of time required to do even a nominal good job, thereby making me look incompetent.

My solution was to DOCUMENT AND COMPLY!

a) Document the project, the initial time frame provided, Your objections to that time frame-if any, the specs as provided, the changes in time or specs?etc. Document why you object and/or what you object to.
b) Comply ? give them the best project you can in the time provided. If and when they are not happy with the end results show your specs and documentations, including all changes and your objection(s).

Remember it is not your company, nor your project. It is what you do for a living. You should do all things to the best of your abilities and take pride in what you do. Don?t stress over what you can?t control. It sounds glib I know, but it is true.

When you show your competence in your field, repeatedly, management will, repeat WILL began to take your requests seriously. Be it for a reasonable time frame to produce a quality product, more help to meet their goals, or whatever.

Then if all else fails, look for another job, or like I did start your own company? and make sure that your managers don?t treat employees the way that you were treated.

You remind me of Dagwood, if your boss resembles Julius Dithers better be ready for his kick in your ass. In the other hand, if Blondie is waiting at home every day, that could improve matters.
Ask for some advise from your grandpa, or even grand-grandpa, they somehow survived thru depression years, when such bosses were a common disease, and even so they made this great country feasible.
You and your folks must struggle for a renewed decent American Way of Life.

Needs special treatment! He needs to be removed from the IT gene field, his kind are the reason that good projects go bad. We start with him being a yes man, we find out what he said yes to and then make sure it will not work. Then we fix his user profile so that every time he logs in he has to change his password and then we delete his exchange profile. And for good measure we delete his personal folder on the network.
Man I have had a few bosses like this! Next copy a bunch of not so nice things from the internet to the bosses drive and call security from a pay phone and tell them about how he has not paid for any of your web sites charges. And tell them about how depraved your site is. I could go on but my boss might be looking;)

Good for you! I couldn't help but relate to
your story. I had accustomed management to
seeing me work overtime almost all the time. I
had dedicated so much time on certain projects I
was on the verge of getting dumped by my wife.
But I gradually came to grips with the fact that
I have several roles in life, only one being IT
manager at this company. I am also father of
three and a husband, before and above the IT
manager role. And when my mother was diagnosed
with lung cancer, I really got my values in
place. I am now trying to get a part-time
arrangement with the company. If they don't go
for that, I will just have to find someplace
else. But my family has lost all this time:
it's their turn to win. (Funny coincidence: I
was also concerned about my little girl's
grades).

Us IT folks have a life. We just have to
decide on living it. Don't let someone else
decide for you.

I've told my co-worker about the site and about the advice recieved.. and funnily enough we have MORE stories from yesterday: We overheard our boss insulting us behind closed doors to the owner of the company and the VP, saying how my co-worker does well but she does certaint hings, like *gasp* HAS A STEREO SYSTEM IN HER CAR or *puts hand to mouth* PUTS HER DAUGHTER FIRST. I mean, can you believe the NERVE she has to do these things??? *note heavy sarcasm*.

I told her flat out that she needs to take this crap to the VP on tuesday and flat-out tell him the harassment that goes on and how its our boss thats teh problem. I mean really, how the [expletive deleted, but begins with an F!} does the fact that she has a "boom box" in her car have ANYTHING to do with work?? How does that make her a "loser", because she likes to have fun?

Sorry, rant off. Just wanted to give another update on the situation. We're both still looking for work, but its easier said than done in our area (pinellas county, FL). I'm going to make sure that something is said on Tuesday; this is completely ridiculous to put up with this bull----. I was *this* close to barging in the door and confronting the boss right then and there.

Thanks again, guys. I'm glad to know that so many of you agree that this guy is a nutjob.

I've worked in several European countries over the span of my career and I have to admit they know a lot more about how to work effectively and efficiently than we do here in the US, even if they work less hours than we do. Has anybody noticed that Europe is beating our socks off in just about every industry now, while the workers in the US are so tired we can't even think?

And, you are still there because???

That is my first reaction to your rant. Now that you have it off of your chest take a lok at what you can do to protect yourself from this un-professional and egocentric "manager".

Keeping documentation with dates and times is one way of protecting yourself. But, using a digital recorder for those meetings would be even more impressive to any legal or government authority for supporting any allegations you might have.

Be careful. In some states it is illegal to record conversations without first notifying the individual that you are recording them. You could always say it helps you to remember what your new goals and tasks are.

Plus, remember this person appears to have the backing of the "Ruling" class, Management, behind them. Or, they may not be aware of how stupid some of the things that are being told to their IT workers really are. Such statements made by their Official company manager/representative makes the company liable for anything said or done to their employees.

See if your co-workers will back you up and if you have an HR, talk with them first.

Other than that, my prayers are with you.

Have your colleague (the one handed the Koran that was told to read it for her morality reasons etc etc) go to the Department of Labor website and post a question asking if this behavior is harrassement. They will repond in a very reasonable amount of time, and if they think there is a problem, they will investigate. The attention of the DOL alone might be enough to geet the Owner's attention and fix things. In the meantime, if your colleague gets fired, it will bring down more trouble for the company since firing a whistle blower during an investigation is considered a bad thing.

Joe

Have you tried including him in your lunches? Maybe if you invited him, he would see that there is no harm in spending time w/ your co-workers.

After reading SQL_Joe's post about "Koran & DOL," I went back and found your original mention of the incident, which I'd missed earlier.

Holy cow, it all makes sense now! (oops - with apologies to those offended by taking the name of thy cow in vain)

You're dealing with a massive chasm in culture and mind-set, I take it? Here all this time I'd thought you merely had a garden-variety psychopath on your hands. This guy may as well be a Klingon for all the more you and he are ever gonna understand each other.

You're colleague is in an even worse situation. How dare she do and be all the things that would get her stoned, or her hands severed, under more "enlightened" governance! I take back everything I said about dealing with harrassment - it wouldn't help at all here.

It is occasionally possible to change another man's thoughts based on intellectual reasoning, but only a Higher Power can change the heart.

And, although intellect may override once in awhile, it is the heart that dictates character; and character, in the end, that dictates conduct.

Good luck, my friend. The faster you two get the flock outta there, the better off everybody--including her daughter--will be.

You are a skilled person regardless of what Mr. Yes says. It is not this way everywhere. Find another job, put in your two weeks notice, and run for your life! No one deserves to be treated that way. Let him find some one else to treat like dirt. As for your coworkers problem, be supportive of her, but tell her to get some backbone and leave too.

Perhaps the light will come on!?!
http://tinyurl.com/7ntnq

You could be like the rest of us in IT and simply put up with it and pull miracles out of your backside every other day. I've actually found my unreasonable boss to drive me beyond what I ever thought possible. The problem however is he has no idea about technology and so producing those miracles is lost on him. He doesn't know how unreasonable he is because he doesn't know technology. And, now he takes miracles as the status quo. So, if I'm ever human and actually want to go home at a reasonable hour (like before midnight!) then "I'm slacking."
Just be glad you're not the only IT guy in the company like I am. I am the systam admin, helpdesk, network admin, desktop support, server admin, web developer, programmer, software support, trainer, etc., etc. Try being all of those because "Your the computer guy." "Oh training? We don't send people to training" "I hired a computer guy because they are supposed to already have all those skills" Dohh! Oh by the way try having to be the expert in any and all software purchased for any reason whatsoever. Such as I am supposed to be the expert in our accounting software on the day I install it. So how do we set up categories, how do we post to the general ledger? How do we figure bi-weekly payroll deductions for our partime empoyees, etc. After all "You're supposed to know, "You're the computer guy and it is software on the COMPUTER!" AHHHHHHHHHH!!! The other thing that drives me nut is the boss is tight and will only buy one or two computers at a time. So much for imaging. And the upper management get them, then their old one boils down to middle management, etc. etc. So every time you buy on computer you have to install, nuke, and resetup like five. Then you've got to magically make a server out of the one that boiled out the bottom. Not to mention you've only got one modern one and four old junky ones that are going to eat up all your time just to keep running. Aren't computers fun! :)

Well, we brought things to upper management's attention, and because I advised my friend to seek legal council, plus because I wanted to get the manager for discrimination by seeing if he yelled at me for going to lunch with another employee (like he did my co-worker), my employment was terminated today. *shrug* Well, you win some, you lose some.

What I fnd worse is the fact that they turned everything around to make it seem like my manager wasn't really doing anything wrong, and that I might have *thought* what he was saying was innapropriate and thus told my co-worker that it was wrong, and yet they said that *I* violated company policies by not coming immediatly to management with the problem.

Figured I'd let all you guys know what happened. Thanks again for all the advice; its nice to know that we weren't crazy :) Wish me luck in my new job search...