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  • #2189128

    Who cares what’s next in Windows..


    by ian lewis ·

    Am I alone in being unimpressed by the constant babble about the next version of Windows, new features on the way and the offer of so much more than the current version.

    It seems that Microsoft, can’t think who else, has trained users to be not only dissatisfied with the current version of their OS but to hanker after the next version. Needless to say the next version isn’t usually significantly different from the last.

    All that really matters in any situation is what you have to use now, be it NT4 (still), Windows 200x or whatever. The issues that really matter now are security, usability and stability. They always will matter but it won’t help solve today’s problem by hoping the next flavour of Windows will solve your problem.

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  • Author
    • #3071625

      Hype has been around for a long time

      by stress junkie ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I remember the first computer product that I noticed was way overhyped. It was Lotus 123. There was so much talk about how great this thing would be, how it would turn information management on its head, how there had never been anything like it in the history of the Universe. Then when I got my hands on it I found that it was just another spreadsheet program. Marketing people have found that joke never gets old. It’s just as funny now as it was twenty years ago. 😀

      • #3057919

        The next version of Windows

        by neil higgins ·

        In reply to Hype has been around for a long time

        Vista,will be perfect,without any security problems,it will install perfectly,and need no more updates.Oh by the way,I am a liar…:)
        Having used most versions since 3.1,I’ve had a good laugh over the years,even at certain friends who “blast” long and hard about how good life is (they are on the payroll?).I must admit Microsoft do try hard,but being IT public enemy number one,does’nt help.You may have heard,or not,of the Bill and Mellisa Gates Foundation,which donates buckets of cash to (worthy) causes.Thats where things tend to go misty.Some say they should just stick to Windows,and nothing else.There’s a debate there to last all night.Me,I watch,update others machines,suggest Linux,get some odd looks away from IT,and carry on with Red Hat,and Mandrake.

        • #3118475

          If you’ve been using Windows since 3.1…

          by debitaylor ·

          In reply to The next version of Windows

          how have you managed all this time to get away without ever using spaces between your punctuation?

        • #3117605

          Not only that…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to If you’ve been using Windows since 3.1…

          but the use of punctuation is shocking. 🙂

          A note to everyone out there, commas are for pauses in a sentence. Think about what you are writing, then say it out aloud. If you pause when you say it, put a comma in.

          Putting, commas, in, on, almost, every, word, makes, you, sound, like, Arnold, Rimmer. 🙂

        • #3119425

          And of course,

          by lastchip ·

          In reply to Not only that…

          sya is actually spelt say 😉

        • #3118385

          I am older than God

          by mikeaaaaaaaaa9 ·

          In reply to The next version of Windows

          Most of my life has been spent around computers, one kind or another. I have seen them all. I love technology, that is why I do what I do. I have nothing but praise and thanks to ALL MANUFACTURERS of ALL KINDS for providing me a fulfilling life. I might have wound up as politician or even worse if it were not for technology. I do not want or expect a unpenetrable, unbreakable, unfixable PC. If I did, I’d use a paper notebook and carry it with me till I died.

        • #3118213

          If it hadn’t been for computers

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to I am older than God

          I might have stayed a taxicab driver, or gone into writing a little earlier. Maybe opened a bar.

          Hell, if Windows worked correctly all the time, I’d be out of a job …

        • #3118198

          If it hadn’t been for computers I’d have been

          by gnx ·

          In reply to If it hadn’t been for computers

          a mechanic and or auto restorer (my wife thinks a gynecologist). I don’t get to work on or drive my cars as often as I like because of work. But everyday I do smoke the tires leaving the parking lot. As for new Windows always coming out, why don’t they try to fix the bugs in it first. Hope I punctuated, spaced and spelled correctly. Oh well gotta go smoke the tires now.

        • #3132404

          Smokin Tires Works !?

          by geezah ·

          In reply to If it hadn’t been for computers I’d have been

          And to think of all that money I’ve wasted over the years. I mean I know You can roll tires, but how do You get them in a bong!?!!?

          As for windows, XP will probably be it, built a smokin machine last winter, GA 8KNXP.2, 3.0 gHz PIV Northwood,i875p chipset, yada, probably won’t even run Vista – I care not, BabyBlue (Yep, from the old Them {Van Morrison et. al.} tune)will be around ’till “It’s all over now….” RATS! now it’s over to the earworm thread!


        • #3118251

          I, too, wondered . . .

          by eddie.limoncelli ·

          In reply to The next version of Windows

          is your inability (or is it a disability?) to use spaces properly perhaps connected to the chromosonal disfunction that in your mind equates philanthropic giving, or at least taking advantage of tax incentives for self-serving purposes, with marketing and/or technical ability?

        • #3117809


          by ronaldpschutte ·

          In reply to I, too, wondered . . .

          Or have you relied on Microsoft to do your spaces?

        • #3117597

          Bill and Mellisa Gates Foundation

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to The next version of Windows

          I am especially aware of this charity because a cousin of mine is chairman of the program to immunise several million children in poor countries.

          I understand it is the largest private charity in the world.

          Much as I admire and respect the generosity of Mr and Mrs Gates, it is not easy to overlook the fact that the money given to charity represents only a minuscule proportion of Gates’ personal wealth.

        • #3131514

          On the other hand…

          by mrtufty ·

          In reply to Bill and Mellisa Gates Foundation

          …there is no requirement for Bill and Melissa to give ANY of their personal wealth away, much less as much as they do. Whatever their reasons for doing so are, I don’t think you can argue that they’re not being generous.

          Also, most of their personal wealth will apparently, upon their deaths, be given away to various charities – leaving their children with enough to live comfortably, but not so much so as to be virtual royalty.

    • #3072394

      The MS Machine

      by gregski ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Microsoft is a software manufacturer. If they don’t make new software, they don’t make huge money (ok I’m generalising a bit here).
      My special beef with this is incompatabilites between versions. As an admin in a mixed environment of MS products it keeps me busy!
      But hey, that’s called job security. Bless you Bill Gates.

      • #3118488


        by bizzo ·

        In reply to The MS Machine

        Gregski, you’re right. Our company administers servers for several companies, all on different versions of Windows, so it does give us a little bit of variety.

        Unfortunately, another version of Windows means another certification about to be scrapped, and more studying to look forward to.

      • #3118423

        MS Compatability

        by chris meacher ·

        In reply to The MS Machine

        Yes again with the VBA programming – but it all goes to pot when the same file opened in Office 2000 has less lines than the same file in 2003.

        Yes – LESS LINES!!!

        On top of that the find function from VBA used to be case sensative – not it’s insensative and without a flag to set for backward compatability – how difficult would that have been?

        • #3120098

          Search in your dictionary for proper spelling

          by joe mctroll ·

          In reply to MS Compatability

          If I were your English 101 teacher, I’d put you to write this one hundred times until learnt by heart:
          – compatibility (since it comes from compatIble)
          – sensitive
          – insensitive

          Makes me wonder if a recent post here at T.R. was right after all, claiming that for the major part we IT people are functionally illiterate.

        • #3118089

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Search in your dictionary for proper spelling

          I suspect you’d find the general population largely funcionally illiterate, with the IT-savvy population a representative sample.

          Even amongst notionally educated people, with degrees and all that, you will find many who are not aware of grammar and so forth. Here in Australia, we have many struggling to differentiate English spelling and American spelling.

          Perhaps my standards have slipped, but my first concern when reading/listening to someone is: do I understand what they are trying to say?

          [I’ve received an essay written entirely in so-called sms-shorthand. I gave the author the opportunity to rewrite in real English because she did have something to say, albeit cryptically written.]

      • #3118341

        Cost of OS upgrades

        by dave.schutz ·

        In reply to The MS Machine

        Another issue for my company is the cost of upgrading to the latest Windows version. Even with volume licensing these upgrades are not cheap! Also where is the ROI? My servers and desktops are still running Win2K (as I expect most companies are) and I don’t see how our business will get much better by upgrading to the newest version of Windows.

        • #3119187

          Eventually, though you’ll have to upgrade it

          by dbucyk ·

          In reply to Cost of OS upgrades

          You see, the cost of OS upgrading is pretty darn expensive with the licensing and hardware upgrades to handle the OS.

          The other thing you have to look at is eventually you’ll have to because the programs you may be using may need to be updated if it does not suit your needs after a while.

        • #3118822

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Eventually, though you’ll have to upgrade it

          the only reason for most people to have upgraded their os is to play games that rely on certain os resources, and to make use of those stupendously large hard drives and ram sticks …

          surely no one would need more than 64k … 640k … 64m … 640m …

      • #3117497


        by semmyd ·

        In reply to The MS Machine

        If it werent for MSoft’s contued churning out of new products most of us would be unemployed by now. A lot of us have been riding the certification wave and mostly MS Certs. Now think if they stopped bringing out new products……

        9x% of pcs world over run MS OS and that translates into employment being generated for us because MS products are buggy and are prone to a lot of problems. From a business point of view whats the point of having a stable OS like Linux which you will never get called in to support. I have a family to support. So all you stop wining and hating on MS coz they feed you and me. You have made careers out of their products so show some appreciation…..

        I am really sick and tired of wanabee gurus who are always tearing down MS. Yes their products can be s*** but they have come a long way. You have to give them that.

        • #3119300

          Are you kidding?

          by slimfisher ·

          In reply to YOU RE ALL UNGRATEFUL!!

          “From a business point of view whats the point of having a stable OS like Linux which you will never get called in to support.”

          What kind of business are you running? And who’s business point of view would that be?

          I doubt it’s the Presidents of any companies I’ve ever worked for.

          Why would any company want to have to call for support? Isn’t the entire point here to provide a reliable and stable platform to handle business operations?

          I have yet to get a single MS Cert, there not worth a dime to me. My job is to provide reliable and cost effective solutions that last, not to subscribe any company I work for to expensive and complicated upgrades, and ridicules licensing options, and highly administrative operating systems.

          I bet if half the companies out there knew then what we know now about Linux and the cost of maintaining an MS environment there would probably be a lot less the MS corporate piggy bank.

        • #3118823


          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Are you kidding?

          i know someone with several mscerts, and the only reason they have them is because their employer thinks that means they know something about what they are hired to do.

          he freely admits that he did learn microsoft’s line on things and microsoft’s jargon from the programs.

          but certainly not how to do his job better.

          i don’t think i’m the only one who met a clueless mcse.

          thant’s not to say i haven’t met useless people with other qualifications.

          but as a basis for claiming/assuming that someone knows anything about ict – in particular how to do things with and to computers, certification alone is not reliable.

        • #3118830

          oh dear, did you think about that before hitting send?

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to YOU RE ALL UNGRATEFUL!!

          You have the cart before the horse here.

          The IT/ICT industry doe snot exist *because* of Microsoft. It was quite alive *before* MS.

          It would be *different* without Gates & Assocs, but it would exist.

          And the idea that the IT industry exists so you can work in tech support is ludicrous.

          Technical support has been around since the first tools.

          Technology is not about being unreliable so people can be employed to fix it. And from a business perspective, most businesses would be more profitable if they didn’t have downtime and expenditure directed towards keeping the tools sharp. They could employ you to actually do something productive, rather than merely reattaching the heads to shoddy hammers.

          Something that galls a lot of people about Microsoft is that it did not get where it is by producing the best, or even necessarily good, products. It got here by controlling what most people got on their computer. Hell, they even got money from the sale of a computer without any of their products on it for more than a decade.

          And even if you don’t consider that monopolistic, the very fact that their OSs are on 90% or so of desktop computers means that most people assume Microsoft when they think of computers.

          Even more insidious is that with most education institutions using MS products, few students know anything else. Having choice is meaningless if you won’t consider alternatives because you’re just barely familiar with the option you already know.

          Computer software isn’t like a car.

          Many different manufacturers produce cars that operate on the same roads, but the basic technologies are similar if not identical across cars. The parts may not be interoperable, but they can all share the same road. And they all work in pretty much the same way. Learn to drive one car, and you can be confident of being able to drive one made by a different manufacturer.

          Not so with computer software. The all important ‘look-and-feel’™ is more than just prettiness. It controls how you operate the software – and therefore the computer. It also controls and defines how you can go about solving problems with the computer. In short, how you can think about solving problems. There is nothing more monopolistic than that.

          Having choice is meaningless if you cannot make use of it, regardless of the reasons.

          And before you go off at me, most of my clients use Microsoft products, particualrly their OSs. I give advice in light of all of their requirements and needs – identify what needs to be done, before we address how. But then I have a background in programming, application management, and systems analysis as well as user support and systems administration.

        • #3118820

          Mis Directed Efforts

          by semmyd ·

          In reply to YOU RE ALL UNGRATEFUL!!

          We are all technical people who understand appreciate the need for secure and stable Software and right now MS is not quite there yet. Instead of everybody taking a shot at them I think we should strive to somehow “fix” the problems with their software. I think discussions should be centred around how to address all these probs. As we have all seen MS will continue to go down the same road they have been so What are we goin to do about it?

          I dont want to lie to you; switching to a linux or MAc desktop is a far off dream. Not in a long time (at least not where I come from)So MS is here to stay – lets redirect our efforts towards a meaningful cause.

        • #3118811

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Mis Directed Efforts

          Depends what you mean by “misdirected efforts” and “taking a shot”.

          As MS is the bread-and-butter of a lot of ICT professionals, Thier products ought to be a substantial part of what we have to talk to one another about.

          How we discuss them is important. Mere whinging is neither productive, nor professional. Since we’re supposed to be technically profficient, we ought to be discussing the technical merits and otherwise of the products we have to deal with on a daily basis.

          We have to share the hack, patches, and workarounds that we have used to deal with thwe various issues we have with the software, hardware, and user behaviour we encounter. A shared and critiqued body of knowledge is part of what makes a profession a profession. Mere technical knowledge is not enough.

          Equally, we cannot expect MS or anyone else to fix things unless we tell them they’re broken. And as professionals, we can tell them what’s broken, and what the solution ought to look like if we can’t give them ideas about how to fix.

          ICT practitioners will continue to have a hard time convincing people they’re a profession if they can’t be seen to be critiquing each other, maintaining ethical practices, and developing a body of professional knowledge.

          Pretending to hide all the ‘good stuff’ behind proprietary certifications does us no great service. A good understanding of the tools of the trade are important, but lets not get caught up in some ‘qualification’ arms race. Pieced of paper by themselves are only useful for writing and drawing upon.

          Security by obscurity or obsfucation doesn’t work. Surely we’ve all got that by now. The more open we are, the less hope malicious exploiters have of getting under our guard, or those who produce the tools that are our stock-in-trade.

        • #3120153

          Well Put

          by semmyd ·

          In reply to Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          Well ellaborated. I think we are all on the same side of the fence.

        • #3118097

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Well Put

          certainly hope so 🙂

        • #3132378

          Help Microsoft “Fix” Problems

          by industrialcontroller ·

          In reply to Mis Directed Efforts

          Microsoft has always done their best work in the face of competition. The best way to help them is to support competitors.

    • #3072346

      I don’t.

      by lastchip ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I get sick of hearing about it.

      An operating system is an operating system; some more stable and secure than others. Going on Microsoft’s rack record, I wouldn’t bet on the security, but their latest (XP) is more or less stable! Arguably, no better than Win2K.

      Interestingly, most people probably use less than 5% of its capabilities. So why would you need more?

      At home, most only surf the net, write the odd letter and *maybe* a bit of home finance. At work, surf the net (if allowed) and use (often) proprietary applications to do their work. So why do we need all these extra bells and whistles?

      In the finance world, it’s called churning. Keep getting the punters to change accounts, policy’s and anything else you can think of, thereby generating commission. It’s no different with Microsoft. Churn the mugs until you bleed them dry!

      • #3118404


        by codebubba ·

        In reply to I don’t.

        I’d like to point out that Windows as a product should be viewed like any other product produced by a company; it goes through revision and update.

        What I find funny is that people get all frothed up about new versions of an O/S but the same people will trade in a car after only having it for 3 years! They’ll lose thousands in depreciation by doing that but then when Microsoft (or whoever) comes out with a new O/S and wants a couple hundred bucks for it they scream like a stuck pig!

        As for myself, I’ve been really pleased with the XP line – it’s been incredibly stable and extends well. Compared to what we had to go through 10 years ago to get these machines to work the darn thing is almost idiot-proof. Of course now we have more idiots!

        I will probably go to “Vista” eventually after I watch the early adopters go through the Beta Cycle. However, like my cars – I don’t just trade up because it’s new and cool I do it based on need. If Vista gives me something I *need* then I’ll more readily adopt it. If not, I’ll stretch XP for awhile longer.

        Regardless of what happens with that over the next couple of years my opinion (and experience) is that this system just plain WORKS. Everything I use – my computers, cameras, Pocket PC’s – everything, all work seamlessly.

        -CB 😉

        • #3118316

          First lemmings off the cliff

          by zaferus ·

          In reply to “Churning”

          While MS is quick to point out the “greatness” of their new versions, it’s the early implementers who help all of us learn the issues, bugs and incompatibilities.

          After the lemmings are all off the cliff, maybe we’ll dip our toes in the water. Until then, “Vista” is just the end of a Arnie one liner to me.

        • #3118279

          It should be stable by now

          by sdunnin ·

          In reply to “Churning”

          Yes, I agree XP on the whole works well, is pretty stable and reliable. It was the first MS Operating System that I actually admitted was pretty good.

          If you think about it though you would expect it to be a “good” and mature product by now. MS took plenty of iterations to finally get it close to right. XP is at a high level Window’s 9th major release (3.1, 3.11, NT3.1, 95, NT4.0, 98, Me, 2k, XP) not counting the various service packs and the merge of consumer and enterprise platforms with XP.

        • #3118222

          The debate is becoming pointless

          by tosser ·

          In reply to “Churning”

          First XP is step backwards from 2k. I do not have high hopes for Vista, but then I do not plan to run Vista unless I absolutly *need* to. I am still running 2k on my personal windows box (even though it shipped with XP). The first two years of XP problems have probably jaded me.

          One thing that should change over the coming years is the price difference for “server” and “home” editions. Exactly what is the difference?

          As a local consultant I use my laptop in a variety of roles every day. If a firewall dies, I reconfigure my laptop to be a NATing router, complete with DHCP, DNS, and proxy services. I can reconfigure my laptop on the fly, without rebooting, to be a file server, web or email server, basically whatever tasks need to be completed. In this way I can reduce down time for my clients while I fix their systems. This laptop also makes for a smoking workstation.

          Needless to say I do not run windows, as the different roles I described can not be met by a single MS product. Reconfiguring their products usually involves a reboot, which is more annoying when you are not used to it.

          The point is that the difference between “server” and “workstation” or “home” editions is arbitrary, and thus nonexistant on many platforms (BSD and Linux come to mind). Even product versions are largely irrelevant. I do not need to install a fresh copy of an OS when it is relaesed. I have several severs that have been in service for many years, migrating to new hardware as needs dictate. This is not data migration, I move the hard drives or copy the drives bit for bit to the new hardware. The OS upgrades itself piece by piece, obliterating the need for data migration to a new or updated platform, even across “major” product version numbers. Again, you can’t do this with *any* MS product. For me it is a matter of choosing the best tools, and MS does not currently come close for me.

          We should not forget that computers and cars are tools to help us get work done. Why let a vendor dictate the role of a computer and thus what work you can or can not get done? Why should I be tied to their roadmap? Why should I be tied to the illusion

          The answer is that you don’t have to be. The best tool for recovering windows machines is a live linux CD (, so that is what I carry with me.

          In the end, the discussion of Vista does not matter. Since windows XP (home or pro) does not meet my needs, I suspect Vista will not either. If it suited my needs I would switch. That should be the focus, the needs of the user or organization. For many, they have no choice in the platform, so they will be moving to Vista and will simply have to cope with whatever Vista turns out to be.

    • #3046109

      I’ve heard a rumor which is supposed to impress me

      by ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      My understanding is that Microsoft is going to compete with linux by by making Longhorn a better linux than linux.

      One of the things that makes Linux Linux is all of the cool gnu software that comes with it: C, Perl, FORTRAN, MySQL, expect, x-fig, x-windows, gnome, kde, ssh, just to name a few. Also, Linux can do software updates without rebooting, and linux can be effectively managed from the command line. I am curious how Microsoft could possibly include all that stuff.

      Incidentally, most of that software I just mentioned runs quite nicely under Windows using Cygwin, also free.

      All of this has been available for some time, surely somebody in Redmond is aware of it. Microsoft could have done this years ago.

      Otherise, I’m really not interested.


      • #3118406

        Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

        by scifiman ·

        In reply to I’ve heard a rumor which is supposed to impress me

        i don’t think C, MySQL, X-windows, etc. has any mass appeal. That stuff has no value to anyone execpt a certain percentage of the tech folks, and not even all of them use the extras. The big players (cities, etc.) are considering Linux to reduce OS costs, since many of their users simply need a low cost desktop OS so they can get email and run a few app’s. All the extra stuff in Linux doesn’t help consumers either, when they get Linux (or Lindows) on a $299 PC to email pictures of the grandkids. Microsoft does know this, and such things aren’t in their game plan for the reasons i cited.

        • #3117787

          For the masses I agree..

          by dbaker ·

          In reply to Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          I would agree that linux is an uphill battle, so much of the web is dominated by asp pages alone. MySQL is a cheap alt to MS SQL Server but I dont think its threatening marketshare as a whole. Want to do some databse on the cheap its a great product.

    • #3045696

      I care.

      by eastexpert ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Unimpressed I may be about constant marketing babble, but I’ve installed Vista pre-Beta 2 on a test machine and it rocks.

      There are no unsolved problems today with Windows usability, security or stability. We are a “Microsoft shop” and Windows do what’s on the tin. There are no such things as “100% secure, stable or perfectly usable” OS – but Windows is a good approximation.

      • #3045680

        It’s the beginning of the end for Microsoft’s monoply

        by bobmollyralph ·

        In reply to I care.

        By being there on the forefront of the PC era and through monopolistic policies, Microsoft has dominated the desktop and to some extent the NOS, which has limited choices for the consumer and slowed advancements. This monopoly has been fueled by the pursuit of corporate profits, with its only significant challenge coming from Apple. For years the open source community has provided viable alternatives such as Linux, Open Office, and MySQL, but Microsoft?s dominance of the computing landscape has prevented users from even considering changing applications or platforms. Today the biggest threat to Microsoft?s dominance is its insecurity, and conflicts caused by patching. The corporate and municipal sectors are starting to consider and implement the alternatives, while Vista is still a year and a half away. As the ROI on switching from Microsoft sinks in, the move away from Microsoft will snowball and companies like Novell are banking on it.

        • #3118433

          Re:It’s the beginning of the end..

          by purecoffee ·

          In reply to It’s the beginning of the end for Microsoft’s monoply

          I couldn’t agree with you more. The open source community needs to unite. Now is the time and the opportunity to righfully take the place or should I say REplace MS’s dominance.

        • #3118421

          true… they even make their friends want to leave..

          by heml0ck ·

          In reply to It’s the beginning of the end for Microsoft’s monoply

          Over the years, I’ve played with every version of windows… recent events make me long for 3.11…

          As to the “new” windows…. We still haven’t phased out some 9x machines (can’t disrupt the users dontcha know…. four years on the job here and still have some pr!cks who can’t be bothered…. mutter mutter…) Why would I care about a new flavour? If it aint broke (having a robust test criteria helps) w2k/2k3 environment, I won’t be moving to the new OS anytime soon…
          M$ seems to think that we IT folk LIKE doing upgrades…
          Unfortunately, M$’s design philosophy is such that they wanted to allow the mass of unwashed install and run their OS’s. This means that they used a monolithic approach to design- put everything you could conceivably need in and ready to go! It is this philosophy which has led to our well-known vulnerabilities and the patches to instability.
          I really don’t want to do another upgrade until M$ finishes its move to a custom config/only what you ask for type of OS… and if they don’t get there, we will be going elsewhere….

        • #3118396


          by codebubba ·

          In reply to It’s the beginning of the end for Microsoft’s monoply

          I really find it interesting that whenever a company has the foresight, the drive and ambition and the guts to carry out a plan (while others sit on the sidelines) and SUCCEEDS that it’s called a “Monopoly”. Microsoft was there first, they took the opportunity to work with IBM with the original PC and they were the ones to dominate the field. Digital Research (Kildall?) chose not to take that risk and lost. If he had been willing to put up with the security issues imposed by IBM then maybe DRI would have the “Monopoly”.

          If by “Monopolistic” you mean that Microsoft was agressive in their marketing and took the risks then you’re right. Otherwise, I’m sorry – the definition “Monopoly” doesn’t fit. Microsoft did not have government-sponsored leverage in the marketplace (the definition of a Monopoly) – they just flat did the job.

          Sorry folks – Microsoft EARNED their position. Get over it.


        • #3118300


          by mr_h ·

          In reply to Monopolies

          Well if you mean that by manipulating and changing industry standard protocols to screw up other NOS’s to make theirs look good. I guess they have EARNED their position.

          Some people would call that criminal. Oh look they got fined $1/2B for that.

        • #3118204

          MS doens’t invoke ire because it’s a monopoly

          by maldain ·

          In reply to Monopolies

          MS ticks people off because of their business practices. The idea of shipping what amounted to beta code and charging users a couple hundred bucks to in essense test it for them comes to mind. On the corporate front doing things like withholding product from manufacturers if they didn’t exclusively use MS products. Using your market position to bully customers by threatening to drive them out of business is bad for the ultimate consumer of those products. MS has done that it’s also used anti-competitive practices to lock competitors out of their operating system. When you own the desktop market that’s driving a competitor out of business if their software can’t run on the user’s OS.

          In typical fashion some have tried to say that offering price breaks to good customers is the same kind of thing and that’s not it at all. If it were you wouldn’t have AMD catching up to Intel and passing their sales.

          MicroSoft is in trouble because they’ve been unethical in their business practices. They’ve been unethical from the beginning. They copied code from other companies violating copyright laws repeatedly, been sued and continued to steal from others. People in general don’t like theives so is it anywonder people don’t like MicroSoft?

        • #3130503

          That was funny! Was it on purpose?? (NT)

          by fmcgowan ·

          In reply to Monopolies


        • #3118304

          A New World?

          by little-b ·

          In reply to It’s the beginning of the end for Microsoft’s monoply

          I agree that the introduction of a new OS will encourage the exploration of alternative technologies for some, but I believe the transition will occur over a longer period of time than many companies are thinking.

          Novell has done a fantastic job of providing a low-cost alternative to Windows with it’s SUSE Linux Desktop. It’s cheaper, performs very similar to Windows, has lots of free software included, and it is open source which almost guarantees change for the better. They have taken a lot of the command-line utilities and made them GUI also, which is a big plus. They provide end-to-end support now. They also provide patching of the system similar to Microsoft. Many companies even city governments like Munich, Germany have switched to Linux completely. A big move to open source has started with a bang!

          However, beyond the issues of security, are the issues of training and application compatibility. No one in the real world “loves” to be forced to learn new technology while having to be productive. It is very frustrating, to say the least. This is where Novell has done a good job of providing training for its product and training to the IT field as well.

          One mistake Novell has made, in my opinion is they made one certification for he culmination of 3 courses of training for a Certified Linux Engineer! Who wants to go thru 3 actual courses of training and try to pass 1 “practicum” test?

          Another issue that has to be addressed is the applications that presently run on Microsoft need to be created to run on Linux and be supported! The creation is not the big problem for most software companies, but the support is a major headache and expense. Without the demand, there is no need for support. Therefore, the demand for Linux apps has to reach a level for companies to support it and at this point, it is not at a level for many smaller/mid-size companies to consider it and the demand is mainly for Microsoft versions.

          It still takes time for a transition like this to occur and the release of a new OS by Microsoft will encourage more transition, but I think it will take longer to occur than most people want to admit.

        • #3118230

          sour grapes man…

          by dewers ·

          In reply to It’s the beginning of the end for Microsoft’s monoply

          Mr. Softy is here to stay. Maybe this author needs to revisit E101 – the basics of micro economics. If one needs to find blame for their ongoing success (don’t even try to call them a monopoly) maybe one needs to look within.

          The US Senate took a position and established a congressional mandate to all federal agencies. “Establish a “Common Computing Environment” or loose IT funding. No more UNIX v Windows debates. Guess who was selected? Mr. Softy! A lot of federal Unix bigots looking for work. I’ve even seen them show up in my MCSE classes. Harharharhar…

          There is no competition. There will be no mass switch to another solution.

          Bottom line – for 25 years we have been hearing about “how MS will have it handed to them” by some up and coming, far superior product. Linux had a chance – until Redhat and all the other “one offs” created to many options. IT management, through their purchasing dollars, have spoken.

          Keep at it. These feeble attempts to discredit MS only make them stronger. Hackers, knee biters and script kiddies keep up the good work. What other company has fended off the constant barrage of attacks from fools trying to disguise their hidden agenda?

          Novell? paleeze!! They too had a chance to dominate their position but failed miserably.

          Apple? Just say iPod. MacOs has nver been a threat to the MS bread and butter cash cow. well, maybe in 1985. Anyone remember GEM?, TopView?, DesqView?

          Considering the alternatives is due diligence. IT spending is how the votes are collected.

          Sour grapes. If as much effort were spent improving the alternative choices (instead of attacking the competition) there may be a day when Mr. Softy has to look over his shoulder.

          But not in this lifetime.

      • #3118465

        Re: I care.

        by dreaddave ·

        In reply to I care.

        umm.. if you define ‘a good approximation’ as ‘just about opposite from’ then I could agree with you.
        If not, I’ll take some of whatever you’ve been smoking.

      • #3130533

        History is so short

        by longtimer ·

        In reply to I care.

        I was just reviewing the history of Windows… and it’s ben 20 short years. Think about it — which of you have created something that is in use by millions of people and gradually improved (from 1.0 to 3.1) then “stabilized” (from 3.11 to Win98) then re-engineered it (Win NT/2000/XP)?

        The next release of Windows is not going to be as momentous as Win2k was, but Microsof HAS to hype it because no organization can afford to support all those differnt versions. I’ve worked for large (750 million revenue) and small (3 employee, money-losing start up) software companies. There’s no way an organization with a large installed base can support many back versions of its products… and so, each new release is brought out with the bandwagon hype that will move as many customers forward as possible. Of course, having said that…. I still run Win2k on one of my computers!

    • #3045499

      But… but…

      by geobeck ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      …but IE7 has tabbed browsing! And support for RSS! Aren’t you excited about that?!

      Wait a minute… What’s this little fox icon that’s just set the big ‘E’ on fire?

      • #3114658

        And another thing…

        by ian lewis ·

        In reply to But… but…

        You jest!

        I have just been reading about all the handy-dandy new features MS are putting into Exchange 2003. Such as anti UCE controls.

        Two years ago I researched, designed and built a Linux mail gateway server to remove viruses and mark up spam.

        Nice to know I was ahead of MS. It works a lot better than the Sophos ‘solution’ my manager insisted we install recently.

      • #3118377

        I needed that

        by axekick ·

        In reply to But… but…

        LOL! Thanks, I needed that! Of course now I have images of little foxes in viking helmets running around going “What’s in your wallet??”

      • #3118351

        Yes the mighty Fox…

        by northern guru ·

        In reply to But… but…

        But let us not forget Opera, which has the tabbed browsing, the pop-up blocking, and the wonderful fact the it is free and also NOT ie.

    • #3118487

      Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      by allen m ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I agree with a mojortiy of what you said, also there will be the issue of no updated drivers for any of the scanners printers graphic card for many many months when MS do bring out there new OS which as you say will have many bugs and issues, wouldn’t MS be better off getting the OS they have now running properly and running bug free or if they do release new OS make sure the manfactures of external product have correct source coding to make drivers before they release there new OS

    • #3118486

      We’re doing it now…. and it’s not that bad

      by rob_o ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Ever stopped to think that even responding to this thread (or any other windows thread) is just adding to the publicity – albeit negative publicity? Kind of like saying don’t think of pink elephants – you have to think of them to not think of them.

      I get tired of windows bashing – the reality is I work in IT, all my clients use windows desktops and servers, and frankly it keeps me employed.

      I’m not suggesting hanging out for every press release and pushing the latest ‘bleeding edge’ technology. But to me ‘ignoring’ what MS is doing is like saying I’m a car salesman, but I’m not interested in what next year’s s are going to be like. You can probably get by, but when customers want details it’s pretty limiting.

    • #3118470

      I *was* impressed …

      by udippel ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      … by Win 3.1; then W95 and then NT4. Really.
      Used to be sysadmin on NT4.
      But that was in 1996 and 1997 and 1998. Then NT5 was to come out for us on the server; the ‘unified’ code base for NT WS and NT Server.

      What came was W98, W98SE and some Millenium edition on the desktop.
      Plus plenty of betas. Finally, W2K. Remember all those promises: Full DOS compatibility; no more reboots for upgrades (except of kernel, of course), fully scriptable administration.
      People tend to be forgetful, as it seems. Now we are in November 2005, and it still hasn’t materialised. Okay, DOS is no topic any longer. But unified codebase, no reboots ?? Make a minor Windows-Upgrade and … reboot.
      Theoretically, for me. Because I started to understand that the codebase was not to be salvaged except by a rewrite and MS wouldn’t.
      And changed, with some sweat and tears, to another system. Steep learning curve, as they say, but these days I can lean backward in my chair and make the system work for me, while my colleages can’t.

      And I bet *quite a lot* that the time after the release of Vista won’t be much different for them.

      • #3118461

        What’s the alternative?

        by paredown ·

        In reply to I *was* impressed …

        Until the open source community stops “shipping” releases that have every good idea included, with little discipline–without insisting that the pieces work together (and can be chosen and installed without being a geek), then windows will reign supreme.

        People (average users) do not want to be geeks; not only are they not using the “power” they don’t want it!!

        Any new Windows is better, but much more complicated–Win2K ended a good part of the stupidity inherent in the code base; full browser integration was a step backwards; XP solved some security issues, but raised others–need I go on? But with complexity comes a higher liklihood of flaws.

        I take it that closed code implies inadequate review, per Eric Raymond.

        OTH, Raymond’s rant about the counter-intuitive (read stupid) printer installation in *nix was also absolutely to the point.

        When “Open Source” offers even more “power” but fails on useability, what change can we expect?

        If Windows were serious about addressing inherent security flaws, they would open their source code; if the Open Source folks want the market, they’d better do a darn sight better in producing a release that an average overstressed, under-resourced, “hair-on-fire” IT department can use! (The new Novell/SUSE desktop release is not exempt!)

        Since neither seems likely, we’ll continue with ‘new’ or ‘old’ windows and limp along from crisis to crisis.


    • #3118462

      The Sales People Care

      by jevans4949 ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      – because every new release requires faster processors, more memory, more disk space, upgrades to all your software…

    • #3118457

      Fence Sitting

      by lowesdp01 ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      The problem is not so much about what is new, but more the fact that each new release requires a beefing up of hardware to cope. We have a network of 500+ desktops plus 150 laptops, the upgrade to XP from 98 has been, and I’m being diplomatic here, a but troublesome. The added “features” do not give benfit to the majority of users so why not make then options instead.

    • #3118451

      I don’t care for all the Hype

      by purecoffee ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I could care less about bells and whistles unless it is going to positively affect the way I work or manage my system. I recently have been trying different distributions of Linux and all I can say is that I am a convert. I am crossing over from the Dark side on a personal computing level. Tired of every other year upgrades only to have to patch the crap out of it. It is also expensive to keep buying the licenses. Again, unless it is something superb, I am sticking with XP Pro until it doesn’t work anymore or is no longer compatible.
      Sorry Mr. Gates…

    • #3118444

      Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      by crazijoe ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      You will always hear the negativity and never the positive. This is the way it is with every thing. My old boss used to say “It takes 10 atta-boys to get rid of an uh-oh.”
      I think you hear this alot with Windows. You never hear the positives but you sure hear about the negatives.

    • #3118441

      Internet Explorer

      by compinfo2k ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I heard last winter that Microsoft (Windows) was
      working on a program that will enable a user to
      remove Internet Explorer. I do not like it. Even when your not there, it’s still running in the background. Any comments.

      • #3118246

        open-source IE remover

        by joe.konczal ·

        In reply to Internet Explorer

        There are open-source products that do a very good job of removing EI from your computer. My favorite is called Fedora Core 4. It also removes the annoying operating system that comes bundled with IE.

    • #3118440

      Bless Microsoft

      by itperformance ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Microsoft brought the PC to the masses. Without Microsoft do you honestly think that there would be as many home PCs as there are out there today? Now think about all of the jobs and consulting jobs that would not exist without them. Granted like any software or any product for that matter it has issues but that is what keeps us all working and raising the bar and growing technology. If everything ran perfect we would be a featureless world. I am looking forward to the next version and the challenges and features it will bring to the table. Without challenges in life why are we all here. I’ve utilized a good amount of all the linux builds, the MAC os, and a few other home grown Operating Systems some of them are great but they will never touch this world like Microsoft has. I say cheers to Bill Gates and thanks for all of the jobs and enjoyment he has built by building a company that makes that coffee cup holder into a world of exploration.

      • #3118410

        put an end to Microsoft’s monolpoly

        by sanyam_y ·

        In reply to Bless Microsoft

        It’s true that Bill Gate’s Windows is the OS which is installed on every nine of ten PC users. But it certainly doesn’t make Windows a “great” OS. What has Microsoft really given to the computing world? The user friendly GUI which it boasts of has actually been copied from Mac.The TCP/IP protocols which form the heart of today’s Internet came from Unix. The shabby Internet Explorer was a double take to Netscape. This all does not make Microsoft a villain but yes at the same time don’t thank Bill Gates for something he had never done nor he intended to.

        Monopoly is always bad in whatever form it is. Today Microsoft is in a postion to stultify any potential growth in computing world which it deems harmful to it’s interests. Let us not make this happen. Let’s not praise Microsoft more than it deserves.

        • #3118405

          If you don’t like it, then don’t buy it

          by montgomery gator ·

          In reply to put an end to Microsoft’s monolpoly

          I don’t consider Microsoft to be a monopoly, even with their market share of over 90%. There are other OSs available to anyone who wants to use them. If you don’t like Microsoft, no one is stopping you from using Mac, Linux, or any other OS. If you are ambitious enough, you could come up with your own OS, like Linus Torvalds did.

          Despite the pros and cons of Microsoft compared with other OSs, the market has spoken, and the market has overwhelmingly gone with Microsoft OSs, at least for the time being. But there is nothing blocking people from developing, marketing, and using other OSs, therefore it is not a true monopoly according to the strict definition of the word, just a product with overwhelming market share compared to its competitors, for the time being. The only way I would want to see an end to the MS “monopoly” is by people freely choosing other OSs (which they can now) according to free market activity, not by any goverment coercion to restrict or break up MS.

        • #3118336

          agreed….but give the FREEDOM!

          by sanyam_y ·

          In reply to If you don’t like it, then don’t buy it

          Yes I agree with you…if u don’t like it then don’t purchase it. Your affection for Microsoft perhaps stems from the fact that you are an MCSD and my love for the opposite can be attributed to my RHCE certification.
          But let’s be rational. It is true that market should ultimately decide what is good and what is bad. But the problem is that an average PC user doesn’t understand what an OS is and what other options are available. Because he is never taught about these things. Intel and Microsoft don’t want people to know the ins and outs of computing. Intel for instance has deliberately misguided people by attributing processing speed solely to clock speed. The fact is that clock speed is only a factor in determining the overall processor speed. Technically speaking, there was little performance difference in Pentium II 350 and Pentium III 700 MHz processor. It was just a marketing propoganda to misguide PC users and rake in quick bucks. Now AMD has finally shattered the Intel myth by producing better processors. Same is the case with MS now. Windows 95 then 98 then ME then XP all the hype has proved to be a hogwash. You say about the freedom in choosing the PC software..but where is the freedom actually?
          How did you came to know about Windows first..? Because it was the only OS offered to you ok..?
          Give the freedom to users to choose the OS. Big manufacturers like Dell,HP should pick up the mantle by providing a dual boot option to choose either GNU Linux or Windows on their PCs and laptops. But they wont be able to do that even if they wanted to. Know why?
          Because here is where monopoly comes into picture. Remember how Gates threatened to ditch Compaq when it tried to include Netscape on its desktop. This is how monopoly works.
          The IT industry is still in it’s infancy and a bad product cannot continue for long. And Bill knows that. That’s why he has been blatantly attacking Linux in it’s infamous “getthefacts” campaign.

          Sanyam Yadav

        • #3118309

          ahhhhhhhhhhh….excuse me….freedom??!!

          by jimbaber ·

          In reply to agreed….but give the FREEDOM!

          did i read that correctly? what about the freedom of a company or business to do business with partners it chooses? if a client of mine chose to cut into my market share and profits by forcing me to share my work space and profit line with a competitor (such as you suggest with the MS/Compaq situation)…it is highly unlikely that i would continue to do business with that client. That client is “free” to choose whatever product provider he wishes, that doesn’t mean I have to do business with him.
          The user has the freedom you speak of already, many local shops will build you a quality machine at a competitive price, and install any o/s you like. The elitist concept that “users” are too stupid to know what is best for them is all growing a bit old. It seems to me the consumer is quite aware of his freedom, and is exercising with his purchasing power. So it makes little sense to infringe upon a company’s right to do business with whom it chooses. Are you seriously suggesting a company be forced to do business with another company that is damaging its market share and profits? If you are, then I wish you well Mr. Marx.

        • #3119316

          Right on!!!

          by montgomery gator ·

          In reply to ahhhhhhhhhhh….excuse me….freedom??!!

          It is hard to get socialists and Marxists to understand free-market capitalist principles. However, you did a very good job, and I commend you on your post. Only those who are ignorant (or caught up in leftist propaganda) of how the market works would disagree with you.

        • #3119780

          what consumers?

          by giannidalessismo ·

          In reply to ahhhhhhhhhhh….excuse me….freedom??!!

          with all due respect to the ‘man-in-the-street’, the average
          consumer using a PC for mail, surfing, some lite word-processing
          and maybe printing the odd busineess card is going to take
          Windows hook-line-and-sinker. EG: I just moved my phone.DSL
          etc, requiring some phone tag: the ‘support’ @ phone co: “which
          version of Windows are you running?”.

        • #3120095

          The “market” did *not* speak,

          by fmcgowan ·

          In reply to If you don’t like it, then don’t buy it

          the OEMs did.

          All of this “the market has sopken” claptrap makes me sick. As early 1987, MS had preload deals covering DOS and by 1991, those agreements coved Windows3.1 as well. By the mid 90s, the agreements covered Windows 9x and Office. As far as actual over the counter sales go, OS/2 outsold Windows-95 *and* NT for several years running. Then the “market has spoken” crap got going and OS/2 was considered a market failure even though it was outselling its competitor in instances where the user made the choice. Unfortunately, even if you boiught a PC without the OS, the vendor paid for it anyway, so you did, too.

          If you *truly* want the “market to speak” on this matter, prohibit the preload bundles and let the consumers – “the market” – actually make the choices instead of having Dell (or whoever) choose for them. Then, let things settle out for a couple of years.

        • #3118086

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to The “market” did *not* speak,

          Indeed. I mentioned this practice in one of my comments concerning Microsoft’s dominance – and how they got there.

          Preload bundles are less of a problem if they are options.

          But realistically, for most end users, Microsoft is the only choice they will make. It is what they know, and people rarely challenge themselves to step outside of their comfort zone. Especially on things they will have to deal with on a daily basis.

          Unless and until MS makes a huge mistake, they have the desktop market pretty much to themselves for the time being.

        • #3118330

          blah, blah, blah…

          by reconlabtech ·

          In reply to put an end to Microsoft’s monolpoly

          Who should put an end to the monopoly? The government? International law? What happened to the market? It’s absolutely laughable how people whine about the big bully government until they come to their little pet whine – then the government is their strong arm to force everyone to do it your way. If we don’t want to do things like you, then live and let live. I don’t demand the government force you to drive the same auto I drive. Do you know which video tape technology was better? BETA – However, the market said VHS was better for many reasons other than the technology. As for “copied this” and “copied that”, there is not one thing on this planet that hasn’t been copied so that line is a waste of breathe. Henry Ford did not invent the automobile but we thank him for making autos much more available to the general public. Bill Gates can and should be thanked for what he has accomplished. That accomplishment is bigger than you imagine and much greater than some would like anyone to know for whatever twisted reasoning I can’t figure out. But nobody should be worshipping Bill and nobody should doubt that Windows has its share of problems as does everything that is as complex as Windows is. My main interest in the next version of Windows is strictly in the administrative capabilities afforded to those who maintain corporate systems. In this regard, Windows XP is lightyears ahead of its predecessors and I would expect that Vista will continue that trend.

        • #3118196

          The problem with a monopoly is no competition

          by maldain ·

          In reply to blah, blah, blah…

          The problem with a monopoly is that competition doesn’t exist. If somebody does start to compete with a monopoly the monopoly responds by using anti-competitive measures like selling it’s products below cost or using purchased media to bad mouth the competition or outright sabotage or all of those tactics and more. The problem with a monopoly is the competition isn’t allowed to exist. Nobody begrudges MicroSoft their market position they just don’t like the tactics used to maintain that position by stifling competition and innovation.

        • #3119312

          And there is no monopoly

          by montgomery gator ·

          In reply to The problem with a monopoly is no competition

          People are free to use Linux, Mac OS, or whatever operating system they choose, or do like Linus Torvalds and come up with one of your own. No one is preventing people from using non-MS operating systems. No one is stopping the Penguin Patrol from using Linux. Microsoft is only “stifling competition” by outcompeting them so far.

          As long as the marketplace chooses to use MS operating systems in about 90% of the desktop computers, they will prosper. But if someone comes up with a product that people like better, then it’s market share will suffer. It is not Microsoft’s duty to allow Linux or Apple to prosper, it is the duty of the Penguin Patrol to promote Linux and Apple to promote Mac in order to try to take market share from MS. They are more than welcome to in my opinion, but only in the free market, not through coercion that limits Microsoft, or any other maker or marketer of OSs.

        • #3118824

          marketing, not logic

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to And there is no monopoly

          actually, the dominance largely negates the choice. most people are only familiar with ms products. they use them at work, used them at school, and most people they know use them.

          being different is not what most people are into.

          humans are social animals. they prefer groups over solitary, sameness over difference/change. most people will go with what they know, and what they are comfortable with.

          purchasing is not a merely logical process of weighing up the competing options. even if they had the time, and the expertise, most people go with what they feel is the best choice.

          otherwise marketing would not work.

          when was the last time you was an advertisement that compared the technical features with alternative products and offered a logical reason for choosing x over y?

        • #3118257

          RE: put an end to Microsoft’s monolpoly

          by itperformance ·

          In reply to put an end to Microsoft’s monolpoly

          Until another company can package and market software as effectively as microsoft has, and convince corporations as well as end users that their software will improve business and overall functionality, Microsoft will remain on Top. There is not a single software company that has not stolen code from eachother through purchasing or piracy. No one company has all the ideas. Microsoft has been the most effective and will remain that way until someone else can prove otherwise.

      • #3118369

        Bless Microsoft

        by codebubba ·

        In reply to Bless Microsoft

        I completely agree. I have been happily employed as a developer using Microsoft technologies for a long time (since 1982). Perfect? Heck no. Darn good? You bet.

        -CB 🙂

      • #3117934


        by zczc23119 ·

        In reply to Bless Microsoft

        IBM bought a PC to the world with the introduction of the PS2. The operating system was IBM DOS with Rival MS-DOS and DR-DOS. Back then Novell bought a LAN into a reality and WordPerfect 5.0 Word Processing ran on Diskless workstation with 1 Meg of RAM by the hundred, Lotus bought us the Spread Sheet with 1-2-3 and MS-Windows version 2.x was being used in a corporate environment with huge hesitation, however for the home user Windows DID look pretty, if you could get to 256 Colours if it recognized your video card.

        IBM bought a PC to the world with the introduction of the PS2. The operating system was IBM DOS with Rival MS-DOS and DR-DOS. Back then Novell bought a LAN into a reality and WordPerfect 5.0 Word Processing ran on Diskless workstation with 1 Meg of RAM by the hundred, Lotus bought us the Spread Sheet with 1-2-3 and MS-Windows version 2.x was being used in a corporate environment with huge hesitation, and many endured productivity loss with abundant but screens of death, however for the home user Windows DID look pretty, if you could get to 256 Colours if it recognized your video card.

        After that, with the introduction of True Type fonts in Windows 3.1, and if your printers emulation was true, industry started to gobble it up, Typing Pools suffered outrageous loss of Productivity, however the application, MS Windows, looked pretty and a mouse saved the day.

        No one understood how to use File Manager who was not technical.

        People wanted Fonts and MS bought every company to be found. The Trade Name “Office” was purchased from WordPerfect Corporation in its demise.

        OS2 and LAN Manager was re invented as Windows NT Server and after 4 Service Packs their Server Stayed up, however there were file lock problems and everyone remembers the RED screen of death of a “Sharing Violation”

        MS-Windows 3.11 was released with the code required to run on an 80286 Processor and a XMS memory management replaced the then L.I.M 4 EMS.

        XMS memory management was successful, however with the 80386 Processor; Windows was able to run in a protected mode. Only the Kernel and a few API’s were required to run in ring 0.

        Windows 95 was released to be the first new Operating system since DOS 2.1….

        The rest was history. It was really the advances of the 80386 Processor, XMS Memory specification and the era of Clone PC?s that really permitted all this to happen.

    • #3118435

      What is a Vista?

      by elecdave ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      According to Websters, a Vista is “A distant view or prospect, especially one seen through an opening, as between rows of buildings or trees”

      Hasn’t all previous releases of Windows been a Vista? (Especially to hackers!) After all, how many openings have been exposed through the rows of code which make up the Operating System.

      So remember, when you go to purchase Windows Vista, you may want to hold off for a few years, and enjoy the Vistas from your Office Window instead. Let others deal with the headaches from the openings exploited by hackers! Unless Microsoft is giving the O.S to me, I will be enjoying the View from my Office Window too!

    • #3118432

      A better question…

      by chinrich ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Who cares if you feel unimpressed by the constant babble about the next version of Windows. First of all your not alone. Microsoft is a HUGE pulsating target for ridicule. They are the easiest target.

      I see alot of people getting caught up in alot of hype. It’s all about getting the job done.

      I think you may need some perspective on all this.

    • #3118428

      Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      by jsanders ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I liken Windows to the auto industry. We all know that technology exist to increase fuel economy while not sacrificing horsepower, but what ever the reason (Big Oil and Government) it is not allowed on the market. Sure you are allowed to purchase add-ons (plug-ins) but why isn’t that technology built into the final product. I’m not impressed with any new release of Windows it is always two steps forward and three steps back, and the forward step in always some other competitors design that Microsoft takes marketing credit for. NOT IMPRESSED AT ALL

    • #3118422

      I Smell another ME

      by publico ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      We are about to come across another Windows ME.

      Enough said.

      • #3119845

        I certainly hope So

        by aaron a baker ·

        In reply to I Smell another ME

        GOD, I hope so.
        The Windows ME was without a doubt, the very best that Microsoft put out. Notice how you didn’t have to be patched up the kazoo. Notice how it didn’t crash, notice how it was probably the most sensibly put together system on the market at it’s time.
        I’ve had them all and until I was forced to switch to XP and the Multi-Patches, all was well. Unfortunately, there is such a thing as keeping up, even if the system leaves a lot to be desired. The combination of Windows 2000 and NT and throw in a little fancy menu and you have XP. This is crap and MS know’s it. Now I have the best XP running, why? Because I put nothing “NOTHING” 🙂 in it that doesn’t MY criteria. Gates notwhistanding, there is not a single patch on my XP Pro except what I decide is absolutely required i.e. SP_2. I refused to be patched up to the eyeballs just because the Microsoft Geniuses can’t get their act together. That’s not what I paid the big money for. All these problems I didn’t have with WinME and if it were possible, I would take a step back and go back to ME. Microsoft got lonely so they created this screw up and now we’re talking about the next one?
        Oh and let’s not forget the MS Rectal Exam if you are forced to get a patch due to Microsoft’s own Stupidity.
        Thanks but no thanks I’ll drive this one into the Dust. Trust me, XP ain’t no ME and doesn’t come close.
        Fancier but that’s all.

        • #3117915


          by brandon.aiken ·

          In reply to I certainly hope So

          I’ve noticed something about WinME.
          15% of users skipped it and stuck with Win98 and jumpted to Win2k or WinXP.
          20% of users thought it was very stable and a good OS.
          65% of users believe it to be the worst OS MS has ever produced, and suffered nothing but crashes, system failures, and non-functioning software. Most techs in this category either reverted to Win98 (and had no problems) or moved to Win2k/XP (and had no problems).

          I personally never ran WinME, but I saw a lot of PCs that fit into that last category. Enough to recommend Win98SE over WinME to people.

          The reason WinME had very few security patches itself is because it was, essentially, Windows 95 SP5. However, the entire Windows 4 OS did not have very many security patches overall (except for those in IE 5/6) simply because the OS was end-of-lifed before the Internet gained widespread popularity. Simply put, it was (and is) trivial to crash Windows 4 remotely, and required a complete rewrite to fix it.

          While I agree that WinXP is basically nothing but Win2k plus some visual themes, the exact same is basically true of WinME, Win98SE, Win98, and Win95 OSR2. MS has only had 5 full versions of their OS, but they sold 3 versions of Windows 3, at least 5 versions of Windows 4, and four versions of Windows 5. I consider Win NT 3/4 is an entirely different beast; beta versions of Windows 5, really.

          As for choosing to not apply security patches to your system… well, that’s the most laughable thing I’ve ever heard, especially if your reasoning is simply to avoid the Validation Tool. Security patches are a fact of computing life, even if you don’t like them. *All* programs and operating systems patch. Ignoring them does nothing but make your system highly susceptible to well-known and trivially exploited vulnerabilities. It forces you to rely solely on firewalls and antivirus to protect yourself from threats that you don’t need to. Lord help your employer if you ever get into a syadmin position.

        • #3130754

          It always amazes Me

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to WinME

          It always amazes me that those who seem to have so much to say about WinME are usually the very ones who haven’t even tried it.
          Yes it was a smart move to jump from Win 98 Sec Ed to XP if that’s how it happened but then by what experience do you speak? Your “General knowledge of things?” I suggest that before you quote me facts and figures gathered from hearsay, that you actually put in on a system and then see for yourself. It should also be mentioned here that I was referring to a Home PCs not an Corporation setup, which as you might know is totally different.
          And as for needing help from God, my employer instead would know that he has an employee who does is homework personally instead of mouthing something somebody else said by way of conversation.
          Of that Widows line, Win ME in my eyes is still the best, and someday when you go into a residence that’s got a list of updates a mile long, over which you have to pour in order to figure out if there are any clashes going on here, then you too may not be very impressed with updates or the way in which they are administered and handed out.
          I don’t use and update as a knee-jerk reaction, and if the best you can do is jump at every little update, then I suggest that in the end, it is you who will need God’s help, not I. Maybe ” If you’re good” 🙂 he can help you muddle through the Spaghetti created by years of “Updates”.
          AS for my Employer, you talking to him.
          Thank you for your input.

    • #3118420

      It’s marketing

      by pete1978 ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      All the whoopla over Windows XP and when it was released, what was it? Windows NT v5.1. Considering that Windows 2000 was Windows NT v5.0, XP wasn’t even a major upgrade. The noise MS makes about the next version of any product is nothing more than marketing. I still stick with “Never use version X.0 of any package from MS until the release the first major patch.”

    • #3118403

      My 80 year old Mother is impressed

      by bpennstsi ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      The purpose of the hype is to get people excited so they will buy it as soon as it’s released. Having been burned by that tactic with Windows 95, I now wait until a MS release has been out long enough for SP1 to have been released before I consider upgrading, and I usually buy a new machine to run it on rather than try to put it on my existing box.

      However, my mother, who is 80 years old and has been trying for 10 years to figure out how to use a computer saw a copy of Windows Vista for Dummies and bought it without having any idea what Windows Vista is.

    • #3118402


      by eccross ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      The reason windows ha sbeen successful, over-successful I might add, is becuase of its “appearant” simplicity to users who know absolutely nothing about their computers, much less that windows doesnt go on all computers, some people today, a great amount, actually think that windows is your computer. Not a OS installed on your computer. Go figure.

      So if microsoft has all this oblivious users, and IT dept’s are forced to use windows due to its large idiot-base, windows can capitolize on the idiot-base by saying “this version looks alot better” and have them hooked. In reality, all they want is something pretty that functions well.

      On the other hand, contrary to what i read from another user in the TEchRepub area, Linux distro’s are becoming much easier to install. Take puppy linux, its insanely easy.

      If people would give open sourced OS’s like Puppy a chance, there would be no windows. Alas, the idiot-base is larger than the geek-user-base.

    • #3118400

      The old days

      by max.bennett ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Maybe some of you should stop to consider where we have progressed to. I started out supporting computers when we had to tweak the config.sys and autoexec.bat files to get some of the 640K of memory back so apps would run. Windows may at times be a little flaky but Microsoft has brought the computer to a much easier to use and configure world. I for one have had one blue screen while running Windows XP for over two years now and that was because of Mcfee Antivirus. While UNIX and LINUX may not need rebooting for longer periods of time and according to some they are more secure (which if they were more previlent in the user community would be subject to many more attacks), Windows is universally more user friendly and much more widely used. I may sound like a major Microsoft backer, but there is no denying that they have helped get the computer to where it is today and that is in nearly every home, every school, every business be it big or small.

      • #3118321

        Here Here!

        by tfazio ·

        In reply to The old days

        I agree. Even though I have had my issues with Windows XP, compared to the DOS/Windows3-3.x days what we have now is absolutely incredible. BUT (and there always is a butt) I think that comparing what we have seen from Redmond for the last almost 6 years Vista doesn’t look like a tremendous leap. Call me skeptical, but things like DRM built-in and not a clear sight of WinFS isn?t making believers out of us. It looks like same old same old. What I am waiting for is a revolutionary OS, one that has that elusive and magical ‘easy’ button. When you can speak to the computer and it understands you then you will impress me and that is the next big thing i.e. something to get truly excited about.

        • #3130523

          It sounds like what you want is

          by fmcgowan ·

          In reply to Here Here!

          the version of OS/2 with speech control built into the OS. It came out in ’94 or ’95 I think… The speech control was built into the OS at a sufficiently low level that you could drive the apps in the Win3.1 emulation system, too.

          THe market rejected OS/2, though, because it was seen as less innovative than Win95 and WinNT. Too bad.

      • #3118223

        two things

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to The old days

        1. Any BSOD at all is unacceptable. I’ll stick with an OS that doesn’t crash the entire friggin’ system when the GUI goes belly-up.

        2. “[i]there is no denying that they have helped get the computer to where it is today[/i]”

        I guess that depends on your definition of “help” and what you think would have happened if Apple or Linux or *BSD or BeOS or OS/2 had claimed the market, or if (heaven forbid) there were actually some competition in the end user desktop market and we had some more options than Microsoft for maximum compatibility. Without Windows (remember it was DOS that made the PC platform popular, cheap, and viable, not Windows), I think things would have progressed in a far more “helpful” fashion. Having a convicted monopolist running the show certainly isn’t what I’d call “help”.

        • #3119341


          by max.bennett ·

          In reply to two things

          I agree that any BSOD is not good, however even in the old days DOS based apps crashed. As far as Apple is concerned, I supported a company that used entirely Macintosh and they were the most unrelyable, unstable systems I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with. Granted it was several OS’s ago but still left me with a dislike of the systems. Not only were they expensive but they were not reliable. If you remember DOS was actually MS DOS which stood for Microsoft DOS. Your final point regarding a monopolist is entirely the problem. Bill Gates had the foresight to dive into this world and has made million no make that billions and there are many that hold that against him. Regardless, his company beat out all competetion for the most part because his product made working with PC’s easier.

        • #3119298


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to BSOD

          1. Apple’s flagship OS is very stable and reasonably secure now. Thank the unerlying unix architecture for that.

          2. DOS was not just MS DOS. It was also DR DOS, PC DOS, FreeDOS, and a few others.

          3. Microsoft didn’t do so well by making working with PCs easier. What a load of crap. If it made getting things done any easier, I’d be using it.

        • #3130653

          Response to the Mac user

          by max.bennett ·

          In reply to corrections

          1. OS X, more and more security holes are being identified, but since so few people actually use Mac’s then there is little need for hacks to try and crack into them. I will agree that Unix is a good architecture, however the fact that it started out so non user friendly resulted in where it is today and that is on the mainframe side.
          2. DOS did have several flavors however the major and most widely used was MS DOS, I stand corrected.
          3. Microsoft did fine with making the PC user friendly and someone can sit down with very little experience and open up word, excel, powerpoint whatever and become semi-productive in a very short time. That load of crap has made Mr. Gates a billionare, and what about Mac-n-crap, oh yeah lets change the name to Mac-Ipod which is the only thing that is saving the company.

        • #3118825

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to BSOD

          it was not the crashing that irked, but the fact the whole system went down with a flaky app.

          and those exciting hex strings really helped figure out what was really going wrong …

          actually, ms won because of their contractual arrangements with ibm and intel, and because they bill & paul were business students who realised that cheap would sell. ms hitched on the coat-tails of the cheap ibm & ibm clone wave.

          luckily, their products were alson not so crap that the alternative was more attractive.

          besides DOS was generally pretty solid – there was relatively little that could go wrong.

          the real flakiness began when bill insisted the gui be integrated into the os. possibly in part coz the dos-win 3.x arrangement was … awkward … under the hood.

          he is a man with a decent business brain, surrounded by bright people. that and money make a good foundation.

    • #3118370

      You’re all full of crap

      by keyguy13 ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I personally LOVE all the cool new features of Windows XP. The new look is beautiful, the way the OS works is very cool.

      I installed Linux on a few of my home machines because of cool features that it had that windows didn’t.

      I see alot of people claiming they don’t care about the ‘eye candy’ of the new versions of windows and that they only install them because they work better.

      I think if we are all a little more honest with ourselves we can admit that we actually install the new OS because the new features are ‘cool’.

      What other reason would anyone pay so much for a mac than because of how nice OSX looks?

      • #3118291

        Hear! Hear! Sort of…

        by tlea ·

        In reply to You’re all full of crap

        I don’t think I would have put it quite so ‘eloquently’ as ‘You’re all full of crap’, but I agree with the general sentiment. The reason we hear so much about Microsoft’s products is because Microsoft has lots-o-money. Plain and simple, it’s marketing.

        The issue isn’t unique to Microsoft. Can you say OS X? Oh my, I can’t tell you how sick I got of listening to Apple and its acolytes telling the world how OS X was going to change everything. And open source isn’t immune either. Heck, eWeek just ran an article on the features they would like to see in the Linux kernel 2.7, which isn’t even in development!

        In my opinion, MS Windows does improve with every release. I regularly switch between XP/2000/NT and 98SE, and I’ll tell you XP is by far the best. Do I get sick of the hype? Sure, but that’s true of anything that gets overplayed, not just MS products.

      • #3118227

        You’re listening to a very limited crowd.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to You’re all full of crap

        You must not be getting a very accurate cross-section of Windows users, if you really think that people are only using Windows XP because it’s “better” in some way. I’ve seen a lot of people (myself included) who have used XP for reasons entirely unrelated to eye candy, wiz-bang new features, or even “because they work better”.

        I’ve used XP in the past because I had to develop for it, since W2k will be dropped by MS support. I know of others who are in the same boat. I also know of a great many people who absolutely cannot continue to use W2k because some mission-critical application was upgraded to a new version, the old version has been dropped from licensing, and the new version only runs on XP since the idiot application developers don’t know how to maintain backward compatibility by even one single OS version. I’ve also seen people migrate to XP for no reason other than the MS announcement that W2k would no longer get Windows Update support.

        For my part, when I had to use XP for a while, I actually turned off as many of those newfangled “features” as I possibly could. I had to familiarize myself with them as much as possible, of course, because I was also supporting clients running XP with all those features turned on, but for my own development system I turned that crap off. When I was done reconfiguring it, the system looked and acted like W2k, pretty much. Unfortunately, it wasn’t quite that stable. Such is life.

        I don’t even like the spiffy eye candy crap in W2k as much as I like the utility and functionality of my Linux systems, even ignoring for the moment the clear stability and security advantages. Linux can, simply put, do a lot more. I don’t much care if it has multicolored Fisher-Price widgets spinning around the screen and gigantic primary color buttons with block letters on them for making stuff happens: what I care about is what I can get done. Well, okay, I do care about the widgets and buttons, but only because I think they’re hideous, take up too much screen real estate, eat up system resources, and are generally unnecessary and counterproductive.

        Windows: “Where do you want to go today?”
        Linux: “What do you want to get done today?”

        I want to get a lot done. I have a very long list of tasks to accomplish. I’ll use something other than Windows XP. If I couldn’t use a non-Windows OS, I’d use W2k, thanks.

        • #3119417

          Not quite.

          by lastchip ·

          In reply to You’re listening to a very limited crowd.

          “since the idiot application developers don’t know how to maintain backward compatibility by even one single OS version”

          More to the point, it’s not in their commercial interests to do so! Why support an old package when you can sell a new?

          Cynical? Maybe; but true.

        • #3119389

          too true

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not quite.

          Of course, I tend to try to adhere to the admonition of Hanlon’s Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

        • #3118827

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to too true


          why attribute to brilliance or foresight, what could equally be luck or careful management (which could include collusion).

        • #3118828

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Not quite.

          backward compatibility was not considered a problem until quite recently. the thinking and effort was put into moving the old stuff onto the new system.

          software isn’t quite like other kinds of technology.

    • #3118366

      Good Man

      by robert.cox ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Lets get back to the old KISS principle (keep it simple stupid). I’ve just posted a comment about Windows v Linux in another discussion and think my views might be relevant here.
      It really doesn’t matter whether we are using either of these two OS’s or something Google might produce. All that is important is that it works. You don’t need to be a car mechanic to drive a car neither should you need to be a computer technician to use computers.
      Most people, most of the time don’t use most of the available OS resources. Get rid of the crap and make sure that the OS if functional, reliable and secure.
      Bad news for OS producers is that if they ever achieve this whats the point of upgrading. Or is this why Google, Yahoo and now Microsoft are looking at the online model? How soon before advertising no longer covers costs and a pay for use model is instituted?

    • #3118332

      But hype is what’s made Microsoft Microsoft

      by placidair ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      If they weren’t so good at spin they wouldn’t be the technical juggernaut that they are now. It’s reality and we just have to face it. Microsoft software has been installed as an “upgrade” even when people were LOSING functionality to go to it. Why? Because people buy into the hype and want whatever the tech gurus and high-priced consultants tell them they should want.

      MS still doesn’t have all of the functionality than the Novell systems it’s replaced in many firms had — anyone remember Novell’s salvage function? How about ZEN Works? NAL? And Word still has not caught up to WordPerfect in ease of use and flexibility of functionality (sorry but writing a document is a linear thought process, not an object-oriented one — and Word wants you to set up the document in an object-oriented manner and it’s non-intuitive for most people doing it).

      I work primarily in the legal industry, and WordPerfect did a wonderful job with large and complicated legal documents — Word to this day does not, and it requires the purchase of add-in macro packages in order for users to be even remotely efficient at document creation. But I don’t know a single law firm still using WordPerfect. Excel now is far more cumbersome to use than Lotus 1-2-3 was even was in the 1980s — but anyone seen Lotus 1-2-3 out there anywhere lately? Outlook/Exchange — still lacks some of the functionality you had with GroupWise and LotusNotes.

      Microsoft may not be the best company technologically, but they clearly have marketing people who are completely brilliant.

      So yeah, I’m sick of their hype, I’m sick of their bugware, and I’m sick of everything having to be done to accommodate their core “logic” — I’m also tired of their moving things around in each version, renaming the function and giving it a new GUI and calling it an “enhancement” — but it’s the reality of the industry we’re in, so we have two basic choices — adapt, or go find a different way to make a living.

    • #3118325

      SOS Differnent Day

      by jakcap ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      SOS Different Day

      Is it time already for a new version?? Oh well I guess I gotta spend the rest of my life savings to recertify…again! Can?t wait to see it!! I wonder where they?ll hide applets like (Control Panel, My Computer, Device Manager, etc)??this time!

      Oh no! Does this mean a new office too??? I wonder how long it will take me to figure out how to remove that ghost Contact list in Outlook. Ya think they could possibly make Excel any more archaic?? If they do?maybe it should ship with Ms SQL instead.

      The hide feature under Window drop down list is one of my favorite features. I?ll always cherish the memory of the day one of my ace excel users enabled it by accident and accused every one in the company of deleting his workbook.
      Almost had sign up for Microsoft support for that one. Humm?.I wonder if that?s what the hide option is really for??

      And last but not least?.Browsing! What will happen here?? Are we gonna get a new mess to replace the Active Dickrectumory horror?? I?ll kinda miss the panic around here when somebody yells out that old Microsoft battle cry??The directory is corrupt!!! Quick, someone unplug the DC from the network before it replicates and takes down the whole fvcking company!!!!?

      All this for $45,000 a year on Long Island, NY where the average house is approaching ? a million bucks!!
      Oh yeah and I always gotta wonder when the fat slob with the community college business degree (and bad breath) that heads our MIS dept is gonna decide one/some of us are gonna have to go because our salaries are conflicting with the CEO?s expense account.

      What a job!! What a career!! WHAT A BUNCH OF A$$HOLES WE ARE IF WE DON?T UNITE!!

    • #3118306

      RE: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      by itjunkie ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Those of us that know its going to be a damn good platform do. Those of us who get paid to map our companies OS future do.

      Looks like you are trained too..

      Quit whining and do some real work.

    • #3118298

      Computer OS and Application Fatigue…

      by boomslang ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Between applying patches to Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, Microsoft Office, Macromedia Flash, Java RE, Acrobat, monitoring to make sure our antivirus truly does actually really really autoupdate and any other application installed on our systems, making sure all the server software is updated, and then making sure Linux patches are installed (apt and aptitude are quite amazing in ease of use), weird driver updates for incompatible HP drivers, odd USB driver weirdness updates, Cisco router software, device firmware updates (ooh yea, internet enabled devices are cool!), it’s sometimes worse than fatigue and it covers all aspects of this LABOR SAVING DEVICE known as the computer.

      A good portion of this is supposedly automated, but what happens if you don’t check up on the automation? Heh, you guessed it, amazing security holes because there is no internal consistency check in things like Norton Antivirus to warn you that stuff is failing to happen.

      At the end of the day, if you’ve been working with Windows since version 2.0 on 286 systems, it’s really, really hard to get worked up over the supposed security improvements and anything else. It’s a lot better, but we’ll still have to patch. The vulnerabilities will just change, not go away. The eye candy just means you have to drop another half million on new hardware, which triggers a complete software replacement of everything else, something that can only be stomached and tolerated both physically and financially every six years here. Money doesn’t grow on trees.

      So, since we just moved from Win95/NT to WinXP/Server2003 here, we’re pretty much out of the running for Windows Vista. It will be a well matured OS by the time we can afford the upgrades, so enjoy the pain while you can early adopters, write about your mistakes and complaints so we can have an easier time of it when we get there.

    • #3118235

      Incremental gains

      by blarman ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Microsoft is facing one of the great business problems – how to make the next product better than the last one by the same amount. This last part is key and can be illustrated best by looking at processors. When the 386 chip came out, it was a HUGE improvement over the 286 in speed and capability. Many people upgraded because there was a very clear benefit in terms of performance improvements, productivity, etc. The 486 came out and it too, enjoyed tremendous success because again, the incremental benefits were significant. The 586/Pentium chips came out, and since then the incremental improvements have been minor. A 3.6 GHz vs a 3.0 GHz? Not really much difference when compared to the difference between 66 MHZ and 100 MHz.

      Windows 95 was a huge step up from Windows 3.1 in many respects. Windows 2000 was another leap. We will ignore the disaster known as Windows ME and the incremental upgrades Windows 98 and Windows XP. There haven’t been upgrades with the same level of significant change as between those two versions since, and customers balk at paying full price for only a small incremental change – the sentiment you are expressing.

      The problem is that without a significant paradigm shift in thinking, only incremental upgrades are going to happen. And despite the fact that it still costs millions of dollars to put out the next version of Windows, customers are seeing less and less REAL improvement, enforcing the perception that the product is worth _less_ than previous versions because the new one doesn’t contain the same amount of real change as the last one.

      I hypothesize that this is one of the main reasons Microsoft keeps changing the interface. I like the authentic Windows 2000 interface. I can’t stand Luna, and shut it off ASAP. And as soon as you shut off Luna, what is the difference between XP and 2000? Not much, and that is exactly the issue.

      I believe that really it will take another hugely significant alteration – like voice-recognition-triggered computing with biometric logins to affect another similar jump in user experience.

      • #3117697

        Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

        by maelorin ·

        In reply to Incremental gains

        There seems to be two competing ‘desires’ at issue in the ICT industry. The desire for ‘better/faster/more’ and the desire for ‘stability’.

        Microsoft has been a canny marketer for most, perhaps all, of it’s existence. They try to give their audience/customers the impression that they can deliver, are delivering, faster, better, more and stability. They also foster both desires in their customers, which is in their own interests as you indicate.

        Unfortunately stablity and change are not easy to achieve together. We have an industry that tries to do both, in a self generated arms race. The question arises: is the rate of change really necessary?

        Also, is it necessary to make the product more complex to achieve upgrade cycles? If complexity is required, does it have to be implemented in the OS (for example)?

        I have been asked to justify a vendor’s business model to clients more times than I can count. Can lead to a few awkward moments.

    • #3118206

      fits in with the IT burnout discussion..

      by jennyn ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I am certainly burned out with more windows stuff, more glitches, more niggly problems at the PC, more inexplicable slowdowns, driver problems, incompatibilites, security issues.

      I want to be working with my users at a higher level, “how can you use these machine to improve your business effectiveness”, but instead I’m bogged down in glitches and registry tweeking, while they can barely use a spreadsheet effectively, because we (techs) don’t have time to help them with the real business needs.

      Until MS comes out with solutions to this underlying problem, by reducing OS complexity, I will continue to lose interest fast.

      PC support shouldnt be this fiddly and complex.

    • #3118191

      I care too…

      by blackcurrant ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I am always interested in what is going to be included in the next version of Windows. Each version is usually miles better than the previous one.

      Vista seems to me to be offering a better user experience from the point of view of useability and visual representation, and an even more stable platform, with even better security.

      To say that the next version is not usually significantly different from the first is daft. What do you mean – more importantly, what do you want?

      Windows 95 (FAT32) was a radical departure from the way Windows 3.11 (Windows for Workgroups – FAT16), looked and worked. In fact it was a huge improvement in all respects.

      Windows 98 did not appear to be very different from Windows 95 visually, but it wiped the floor with it when it came to performance, reliability and useability.

      I have never used ME.

      Windows 2000 was as different to the previous version as Windows 95 was to WFW. It really allowed administrators to actually ‘administrate’. The NTFS file system opened the way for massive beneficial changes in the way files and folders could be organised, the amount of data that could be addressed etc etc

      XP really raised the bar. It is so stable and generally runs like a dream. If the next version is going to offer *significant* enhancements then I am definitely interested. And, to be honest I would still be interested even if XP was not as good as it is.

      To claim that Microsoft has ‘trained’ its users to be not only discontent with the present version but also to ‘hanker’ after the next seems a strange thing to say. You think we are a bunch of dogs whose master’s name is Pavlov?

      Most people who are discontent about Windows being poor, or who generally diss it do not seem to know how to use a computer (or expect it to make tea, do the washing up and take the dog for a walk), and do not seem to understand how to maintain one. These people often expect the computer to be *magic* and to heal itself, and when it does not they blame the computer…

      Even worse is to strutt around with the attitude that users are not interested in increasing the reliability of the present OS (as per your last paragraph) but rely on the next version to ‘solve your problem’.

      You are in a minority.

    • #3118169

      you are not alone

      by gkrew ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Microsoft has always been doing what they are doing now. By the time the new version comes out it will have gone through several name changes and revisions and its promised features will have changed. Some features will become bugs and some bugs will become features. You do not have to listen or read about whats coming next from Microsoft.You can choose to ignore it and read about Linux developments or something else.

    • #3118164

      NOONE ELSE has blundered so much before !

      by hozcanhan ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      But still Microsoft continues to “push” its operating systems to the market . We had DOS , Netware and Unix at the beginning “when MS Windows” moved onto the stage . NONE of the other operating systems had so many bugs , had so many repeated errors/bugs(service packs !!) and “next version will solve it all” . Yet all we get is bewilderment after bewilderment . So it is time to dream , to envision , to think about a FREE , OPEN SOURCE , COMMON COMMITMENT . I invite you all to my discussion the topic of which you can find below : “”This is no utopia or an anti-Microsoft jargon . History shows that even the Romans , Greeks , DOS….OS2 ( and many others )can fall and all fell . Humans and human made “tools” will finally cease to exit to allow another young , better , more satisfying “being or thing” to replace it . What will the new operating system look like ? Are word and table processor going to be integrated in it ? Is it going to be something that is around now ? Will it come from Microsoft or one of its ex-employees ? Is it going to be an even bigger company ? Or again IBM ? Let us try to envision , to foretell , may be to dream how it will look like !…Can we not ? “”

    • #3117804

      I don’t care much

      by donpeach ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      For personal computer use, I use either Mac’s or Suse 9.3
      machines. I got tired of the maintenance involved with Windows.
      I have yet have a Mac or Linux machine crash on me. At work I
      have close to 200 Windows machines to worry about. The last
      thing I want is to do the same at home. I have three Windows
      machines at home, Two are servers and one to use for programs
      I can’t run on the others.

    • #3117795


      by ronaldpschutte ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Allthough I consider the technological improvements of the Microsoft productline at the right pace, I don’t think it is restrained by technological boundries. I think it is restrained by acceptance level. Like a lot of tech-oriented minds, my mind feels battered trying to get all new things in. Looking at this month with a new Visual Studio, SQL server and .Net framework, I have about enough to do for a little while.

      It is the marketing that makes it count though. And allthough I prefer the open source model for product improvement, I don’t see the open source community come up with a good marketing model for linux and php. All they do is create more builds and think that quality sells itself. I think it does, but only to people that have taken some hurdles to be able to see the quality.

      And since I am deploying and open source CMS intranet(php) and a writing a business application in ASP.NET, I get to appriciate both.

      I found that there is more and more source available for dotNet
      I think that there will be an extensive open source community for dotNet before there will be a good joined effort to market Linux and PHP.

      Java and Unix are loosing on both frontiers. Sun and IBM just don’t get the idea, despite the fact that Microsoft’s strategy is in the open. I consider Ajax a briliant solution, but everybody seems to think I am talking about a soccerclub from Amsterdam.

      As for Vista, I think will not bring a lot more functionality for admins and will indeed not make life a lot easier. More functionality for the users means more options to do harm.

      I think more and more admins will be left behind if they don’t get into the business processes they are supposed to service. If you look at the possibilities of the Windows Communication Foundation classes that will ship with Vista, I think will increase the purity to set the security accordingly to the roles within a company. This in conjuction to the increase speed of development of Visual Studio makes a much better environment than an enviroment with a mix of securities on different platforms and then having to administer a variaty of applications as well.

      Looking at the entire marketspace I see only four products that really compete with Microsoft. Google, Flash, Apache and MySQL.

      No OS does. And all will be trailing further behind as Microsoft will be able to impose hardware architecture strategies on hardware vendors.

    • #3117647

      I agree with you 100%. What’s the hype anyway?

      by dbucyk ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      When Microsoft migrated from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 and 98 it was a big thing. Microsoft had developed at the time for security NTFS.

      After Windows 2000 I feel Microsoft is just reproducing an operating system that requires more and more out of your computer and does not offer anything really new.

      The one thing that all of the operating systems lack is the ability to prevent the bypassing of the security via Safe Mode.

      Sure there is third party software and maybe Windows XP or later versions may have it password protected, but I am pretty sure that it can still be cracked.

      In my view all of the operating systems since Windows 3.1 (and including it) have had from minor problems with File Manager in Windows 3.1 to having to do lots of registry changes and update the system tools (like scandisk for Windows ME can be used with Windows 98se or having to search the internet and, even though Windows 95C has USB support, you have to find the process online and enable it.

      So when Microsoft says that they have a new operating system coming out, I just yawn at all the excitement it has to offer. I may offer a slight improvement in security or functionality, consume a great deal of System Resources, and may be more user friendly by the use of extravegant graphics that utterly slows the computer down, but at least they try.

      All you job is as in my case, being a Computer and Network Technician, is to make sure the operating system is running more smoothly.

      All we have to deal is with OS’s by Microsoft that are immensly flawed when they come out and deal with the problems when they arise.

      Nobody’s perfect, not even Microsoft (hahaha), but they should really try to hold off on the new debut of an operating system until at least some of the major flaws have been fixed before they send out the CD’s containing the software.

    • #3117604

      It’s like a textile industry

      by jkameleon ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      It needs fashion to keep it busy.

    • #3117585

      The release of Windows 98

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Well do I remember that 200 probably “sane” people queued up at MIDNIGHT for the initial release of Win 98 at the department store which had the rights to issue it first.

      I only upgraded from 95 to 98 because the AV would no longer support 95, and the peripherals (scanner, printer etc) required USB connection.

      I have found 98 to be a massive memory hog, requiring much greater specs than 95 to do what seems to me to be the same job.

      With Win 95 I was able to perform all my tasks including publishing websites on a 486 DX 100 with 48 MB RAM.

      • #3118840

        Actually, that’s not true

        by dbucyk ·

        In reply to The release of Windows 98

        To effectively use Windows 98, you only need a 486 SX computer with 24 MB of RAM to make it run.

        It’s all the Terminate-Resident and Stay programs (TSRs) that eat up your memory.

        Type (msconfig) and go to startup. Check the unnecessary programs loading at startup. You should only have 3. Task Scheduler, an Antivirus Program, and your Firewall Software. Nothing else is needed.

        Next, click on system in control panel. Click on performance, then file system. Select Network Server. It allows Windows to use an additional 16K of cache which helps too.

        Also, if you can repartition your computer. Go to the place above and instead of selecting the file system, select virtual memory and select your own if you partitioned your hard drive. Change it.

        Next, there are some registry changes that if you go to, they’ll tell you what to do to speed up your computer.

        There is also another thing. Did you know that Windows 98 disk defragmenter is ineffective. Download Windows ME disk defragmenter and copy it to the Windows directory and replace them.

        This disk defragmenter is at least 250% faster than Windows 98.

        If you would like some additional tweaks, please drop me a line.

        • #3118821

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Actually, that’s not true

          i’ve workied with companies that still use win98 on 486s for mission critical operations.

          they work. everyone knows how, and how to fix them.

          they don’t need 4ghz to get the job done.

          but they’re about to upgrade because it’s cheaper than trying to source parts – and installing win98 on a 200g hdd is just silly.

          [mind you, we found ways to replace 147 distributed 486s with four pivs and use firewire and usb2 to attach the relavent devices and monitors to said boxen. considered linux, but that legitimately scared the floor staff.]

    • #3117573

      The information industry in general

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      which includes mobile phones and other devices as well as computers is, in my estimation, the most money-oriented industry that we have ever seen.

      And the general populace appear to love throwing away their money to feed this ravenous beast.

      The capitalist system requires continual growth. That is its raison d’etre.

      The IT hardware division demands software with ever increasing specifications in order to survive and grow.

      The relationship between hardware and software is symbiotic or co-dependent.

      Regardless of the reasons Microsoft may have to continually release new products, they would be under continual pressure from the hardware industry to PROVIDE ever hungrier software.

      • #3117564

        One word: Baroque

        by jkameleon ·

        In reply to The information industry in general

        Enormous ammount of decoration with no real purpose.

      • #3118833

        Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

        by maelorin ·

        In reply to The information industry in general

        ICT industries are so profitable because, outside of hardware, they are very, very cheap to run compared with the prices that people are prepared to pay for them.

        And since humans are social animals, any industry that derives it’s income from exploiting human social relations will be very popular. This includes the entertainment industries, magazines, and all that jazz.

        The Industrial Revolution was remarkable because of the pace of the technological arms race – particularly in Western Europe. Nevertheless, the trend to want bigger or faster or more was not new even then.

        The Corporation, The Trust, The Trademark, The Patent and other social constructions arose as a part of the response to the pace of change. Everyone wanted to be first, and to be biggest. The British eventually won by social reconstruction. We are still working within this social framework now.

        I suspect many hardware people would be happy if the software being written and run on their stuff was effective and efficient, rather than merely getting by on the work of the hardware people. By this I mean, bloat is not what hardware people work for. They work to produce the best product. Having to accomodate the interests of software people is a necessary evil in that endeavour.

    • #3119493

      Gives us something to play around with :)

      by stargazerr ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      If it werent for windows…we would all be unemployed…many of us work as tech support..whats the use if nothing goes wrong and theres nothing to support??? 😛

      And you have to admit … Many of us like getting our hands dirty with the next new OS Microsoft comes up with. 🙂

      • #3119471


        by jkameleon ·

        In reply to Gives us something to play around with :)

        > If it werent for windows…we would all be unemployed.

        I see you are beginning to see things my way after all 😀

        • #3119469


          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Bwaaahahahaha!

          But this doesnt change the fact…that I absolutely detest microsoft 😀

          We need peace in our lives …. sometimes 🙂

      • #3118829

        Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

        by maelorin ·

        In reply to Gives us something to play around with :)

        there is always something to support.

        ibm had tech support. and so did hewlett-packard. long before gates & co.

        many of us like playing with toys, regardless of who made or mangled them.

        • #3118666


          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          You cannot argue the fact..that windows needs the most support since Windows gets attacked the most (That is, when it doesn’t crash on its own 🙂 )

        • #3119736

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Yeah….But

          it gets attacked the most because it is so common. being relatively easy to penetrate only amplifies that.

          much like the most common cars tend to be stolen most often. those with easy to exploit weaknesses are more accessible, and so attract more attention because those with weaker skills can get into them.

          microsoft’s insistance on integrating components of the application layer and hardware abstraction layer (even the hardware interface layer) of it’s software is a key reason it is so vulnerable. protecting its market share is not a service to anyone who has to maintain or indeed use its products.

          the fact that the most common desktop and small system software is so unnecessarily vulnerable is not an ‘achievement’. many of my colleagues would rather be doing something interesting and meaningful than constantly playing fix-chasey. and it’s certainly not in the interests of the poor sods who are trying to get something done using the software.

          fixing things that needn’t be broke is tedious.

    • #3119356

      If it weren’t for vaporware

      by dryflies ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      There would be no tech news. Just think, our entire professional existence is based on being able to make IT transparent to the user. If you run your shop well, the only visible reason to keep you around is to install upgrades.

      • #3118826

        Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

        by maelorin ·

        In reply to If it weren’t for vaporware


        you’ve never met a curious secretary? or a intern desperate to make a good impression by figuring out how to use the portable projector?

        or worked in a law firm with me.

    • #3118663

      This Mediocre Crap Puts Food on my Table

      by livendien la ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Let me start out by saying… yes MS sucks…but what sucks just as hard is all the damn belly aching that so many of us do.

      Its sort of like a hobby car…me I love my 1968 VW Karmann Ghia… its fun to drive, but it constantly needs work. The more you work on this cute little car the more you realize that it was tossed together without much thought. The components are all third rate, and tossed around the car nilly willy and yet this comes from the Masters of German Engineering… that’s a load of crap!
      It looks nice but under the exterior beauty is a tin can with wires and an engine.

      My point is we still use Microsoft everyday, we massage it to do what we need, and we get paid doing it…Is that so bad?
      Hey, I even have fun fixing it!

      • #3119735

        Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

        by maelorin ·

        In reply to This Mediocre Crap Puts Food on my Table

        i’m not ‘belly aching’, i’m simply critical of a corporation that constantly fails to deliver what its customers actually need. reliable software that helps them get their own work done.

        volkswagen produces some of the most reliable, functional, and attractive cars on any market. they learned from past experience, but they’re also competing with other manufacturers with competitive products.

        as i’ve said elsewhere, the software industry is not like other consumer industries. it is dominated by a single vendor who has such significant market power that other companies make sure their products are designed to be compatible with the ms os – ms is not in the position of having to design its products to work with other vendors products, be they software or hardware.

        that’s a hell of a lot more power than volkswagen or ford can possibly have in the market place.

        • #3120063

          Point Taken

          by livendien la ·

          In reply to Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          You are absolutely right, I was not putting the ovewhelming influence that Microsoft has into my thinking. On that front I agree, and as some others have stated perhaps Windows should come in different flavors.
          For Corportate users that only need Exchange, Word, and Excel. Windows should be stripped of all the extra fluff that is never used.

        • #3118082

          Reply To: Who cares what’s next in Windows..

          by maelorin ·

          In reply to Point Taken

          It’s not just choice that I’m concerned about.

          Microsoft’s approach to software architecture does help it maintain it’s dominance because everything is so closely integrated that no true competitor can challenge MS applications or replace the OS on an equal footing. Equally, with so many components reliant upon shared resources, the system becomes vulnerable at each of those points.

    • #3118642

      Next Windows

      by roscoedelong ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      I’m tired of MS arrogance. Folders read MY docs,MY photos MY whatever,yet you can’t dress them up! How is this MY?
      Some day when I buy a new computer,if it has some “new” windows #.# I’ll find a way to revert to older version.

      PS:I’m not happy about restrictions on loading XP on new computer either. I think we should be able to Buy the sys. not Rent it!

    • #3118573

      Absolutely Sick of Vista

      by aaron a baker ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      No Sir you are Not. For gosh sakes, we haven’t even worked out all the kinks in Windows XP Home or Pros yet, the patches keep coming and there seems to be this really big “Thing ” Regarding Vista?. WHY? Frankly I don’t care about Vista, I want to talk about what is relevant right now, not a year from now. One thing for sure, it will come with it’s own plethora of problems requiring a Gazillion Patches that you won’t be able to get unless you’ve had the Microsoft Rectal Exam.
      So Yes, I am more than just a little unimpressed with the way a lot of people are going on and on about a nonentity that isn’t even here yet. I assure you that I for one intend to get FULL usage from my Windows XP Pro which really mean Vista will turn to dust before I decide to give into it.
      So for those who love to theorize and live in conjecture land, I am please for you, but for those of us who prefer to live in the here and now, Vista and any mention thereof is a waste of time and a pain in the caboodle.
      I really tire to the point of nausea seeing it blared across almost every Tech Rep screen, build it it’s own Shrine if you have to and then let’s get back to reality.
      Reality being something that is Real, Tangible, and in actual service as we speak. None of these apply to “Vista” nor should the blaring headlines.
      The bottom line is that “WE DON’T CARE” Sorry about the loud voice. 🙂 So let’s get back to The Tech Republic we all know, love admire and are proud to be part of. You know, The Pros who deal with reality?
      You know the one that deals with “What Is !! “, not “What If !!”. There is a huge difference.
      Thank you for your attention;
      A very frustrated
      Aaron a Baker

      • #3118549

        Well said Sir!

        by lastchip ·

        In reply to Absolutely Sick of Vista

        A dose of reality is what we all need and dare I say, a few journalists could do with too!

        • #3119728

          Thank you

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to Well said Sir!

          Thank Yuo
          It’s appreciated more than you can know.
          Aaron 🙂

    • #3117876

      Everytime a new version

      by spidershrek ·

      In reply to Who cares what’s next in Windows..

      Everytime there is a new version available for windows, i think back from the time I bought a pc with ME. I thought this edition was going to be extraordinary, but it was an extaordinary waste of money. I lasted 45 minutes before i degrated the PC to 98 and then a couple of weeks later XP is launched. Let’s just hope that whatever Microsoft is trying to do doesn’t affect the way we control our PC. Because we do what we want with our PC(CLEARLY LEGALLY)and it seems that this new OS is going to prevent us from doing a lot of things…

      Lets see what happens…..

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