General discussion



By FluxIt ·
"Houston, We have a problem!"

Ricart on the planet below hails the Enterprise, 'Ricart to Picard,.. We have
a problem! ... It?s worse than we suspected, the Matocans are beginning to believe
in a God!'

This third season fourth episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation ran in the early 1990?s and was curiously titled, ?Who Watches the Watchers?? The episode opens with a series of cascading technical and human mishaps that result in a scientific observation post becoming exposed with its advanced technology and watchers of a primitive culture; a culture who by happenchance assume that Captain Picard is a God.

Meanwhile, there are debates on the Enterprise over how to handle the God problem. One scientist poses that 'God' (Captain Picard) confront the people and give them a sign, a set of commandments to live by as a solution.

Capt Picard raises the question, 'Sanctioning false beliefs?'

Ricart queries, 'You mean this belief will become a religion?'

The scientist argues that without sage human guidance these people will eventually deteriorate into inquisitions, holy wars, and chaos.

'Horrifying.' Picard retorts then argues, 'Dr ... your report describes how rational these people are; millennia ago they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, send them back into the dark ages of superstition, ignorance, and fear!' Picard exhorts emphatically, 'NO!'

Meanwhile Counselor Troy on the surface argues with the Matocans, 'The problem with a supernatural being is trying to determine what he wants. No one knows.'

The point of Star Trek is humanism and appeals to those who are outside the community of faith. The point behind this episode was to discredit God, faith, and religion while trying to anecdotally explain the otherwise unexplainable.

Particle physics has developed the concept of quantum computing. In this notion, the physical universe deconstructs to a particle of discrete length and mass known as Planck?s length and Planck?s mass. This realm also known as the Planckian Realm occurs at 10 to the minus 35th meters. When this discrete particle is cut or smashed into what one would think to be smaller particles, it does not. The particle vaporizes into energy; mass and length no longer exists. If mass and length no longer exist then space-time no longer exists. This is in effect a boundary limit to the physical and physical science can no longer extend itself. More importantly these discrete particles come in and out of existence in this realm through a little known process called compactness where in string theory waveforms come together forming a particle of mass. Hence, we arrive at the wave-particle theory of light.

This smallest discrete particle is a key point in quantum computing and relates directly to a bit in information theory. Matter is either exists or does not exist. Matter is on or off. In addition, we find that thermodynamics and information theory use the same mathematical equations and are in fact the same thing. So we have a trail linking matter to energy (light, waveforms, heat) to information theory. This leads to a notion that the physical universe, human reality, is the outcome of an irreversible algorithmic computation from the natural viewpoint.

However, Genesis 1 NIV ?and God said, ?Let there be light? and there was light.? The Judeo Christian God spoke the universe into existence and it was light. Speaking is the act of communicating information. Is science discovering what a message from beyond the boundary limits has been telling us all along about the origin of our reality? Could it be that our reality is the outcome of information? Could it be that we are bound to a matrix-like reality of sorts where our essence, our awareness, our souls are from another reality? Could the information we speak be connected to our souls?

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Uh yeah

by zlitocook In reply to WHO'S WATCHING THE WATCHE ...

What he said. :)

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wooo, slow down there

by dawgit In reply to WHO'S WATCHING THE WATCHE ...

Sounds good, but a lot to chew on, I need to sleep on this one.... (there goes another restfull night)

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by FluxIt In reply to wooo, slow down there

If you are in IT then sleep is optional.

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Actually according to quantum theory

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to WHO'S WATCHING THE WATCHE ...

whether a particle exists at a certain point in space and time is a probablity, unless you confirm it's existance by observing it and in doing so change it's observable properties.

So on that basis if we could observe deity, it would no longer be a deity.

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by FluxIt In reply to Actually according to qua ...

It is true that particles come in and out of existence based on a probabilistic outcomes.

You are referring to Bell's Theorem regarding observation. It was proven be to inaccurate as I recall.

If the creator caused this reality then this reality cannot affect him unless he is bounded by it. I believe the Bible remarks in Hebrews that Christ is the glue that holds the universe together. That does not imply he is bounded by his creation.

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Actually that was a bit tongue in cheek

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to REALLY?

but last time I heard the uncertainty principle was still accepted, Heisenberg compensators not with standing.

How could christ appear in our universe and interact with us without being bound by it's rules at that time?

Given he was bound at that time, how did he enter and where from and how did he leave and where to. Who created where he came from and where he went to?

If he was n't bound by our universe what is he bound by that does not also bound us?

What is the universe except that which bounds us?

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by FluxIt In reply to Actually that was a bit t ...

There are two stories here. Each coming from opposite directions; one theological the other scientific. I'll avoid both for now and provide an allegory.

Ever create model parts then hold them together to make it whole and see what it is like? The creator usually sits there holding it together and looking at it from different angles viewing as a whole. After sometime the creator will let go and the creation falls apart. The creator was only bound to his creation for the time he was holding it together but he was not bound to the creation as each part is bound to its place within creation. This creator could easliy use clothes pins, glue, or rubber bands to hold the creation together freeing himself from it.

In a similiar manner the creator of the this universe makes claims that he holds it together and that he made it from nothing. In fact, he tells us he spoke it into existence. He does not tell us how he binds it together just that he does. He also tells us that when he lets this binding grip go the universe will fall apart. In this, he is active in putting this place together but not necessarily bounded by it as he is extra-spatial and extra-temporal.

If you understand the notion the our reality may be the outcome of a computer program then obviously God could make code in which he puts a little bit himself into and invades the universe. The genetically coded Christ/human having his image is then bound to the universe and its rules (even ones we do not know of or understand) of which the creator developed in the beginning.

Theologically, one point of Christ was that he was human and suffered like each of us. Then ultimately suffered for all of mankind paying for the sinful man's deviatant ways. I realize this and this is why I am a Christian and jesus Christ is my Lord and savior.

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I suppose if you are going to argue from

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to TO BOUND OR NOT TO BOUND

faith, you might as well chuck all logic in the bin

If god created the universe outside of him self then he created it inside something else which bounds both deity and our universe, in other words our universe is simply bigger than we thought it was.

If two universes were ever connected and by definition the act of creation would be a connection, then they are always connected. A temporal discontinuity like that would destroy the universe, creation would fail.

Occam's razor, god is the universe.

If you find comfort in your faith fine, you are welcome to it, don't try to base it on logic though, you just make yourself look like an eejit.

Notice the lower case g by the way, bring christianity and the church into this and we will go sideways rapidly.

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by FluxIt In reply to I suppose if you are goin ...

I find it hilarious that proponents of logic typically employ vertical reasoning and are unable to demonstrate lateral reasoning abilities.

You seem to be confounding thoughts. We are are discussing the limits of the physical universe of which may very well be a subset of the Theological universe. Logic and science only apply to the physical. When the Physical ends so does logic and science. However, the theological continues to operate thoughout both in the Christian worldview, the essence of your being is influenced by a conscience perhaps an image in you that calls out for basic rights and justice. Where is the logic in this?

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by onbliss In reply to LOGIC

We are are discussing the limits of the physical universe of which may very well be a subset of the Theological universe. Logic and science only apply to the physical. When the Physical ends so does logic and science.

Hinduism has a concept of Brahman that which is beyond the senses of humans. It is supposed to be Supreme, incomprehensible, omnipresent, original, first, eternal and absolute. It is considered that humans with ordinary sense can not describe or understand "it" with even with a small success.

But there are two aspects of it though - Attributeless and one with Attributes (the good ones). It just gets little interesting... so to speak.

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