General discussion

  • Creator
  • #2257316

    Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?


    by dacook ·

    I have noticed the trend over last year on these boards to trash bosses and IT Management in general.

    So, I am asking what you like about your job and what positive things has your current employer done to make your work environment positive?

    Or, let me turn it a different way, what have you done to make your current place of employment a better place for everyone?

All Comments

  • Author
    • #3214028

      Flex hours

      by crashoverider ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      My boss has realized that I do a lot of my work after hours (usually between 11 pm and 3 am) so he has modified my work hours from 8-5 with an hour lunch to 9-5 without a lunch and when I come in late he does not say anything either. He also will give me some comp time (when I ask for it) to make up for the late hours.

    • #3214024


      by compootergeek ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I haven’t noticed a lot of trashing of IT management. I’ve come across TR people that question it, but it appears that they have a need to gain an understanding of it.
      It’s what TR is for, I thought. Yes, some may abuse this free privilege….
      It’s good practice for the TR members to see what else is out there in the world, besides the one world THEY live in.
      I encourage people to express themselves, honestly. And I encourage them to listen, just as well.
      A question I have is, “How can people gain an understanding of their experiences if they can’t question them?” TR blogs and discussions make for a good resource in getting some of their answers.
      Maybe things will get better for these TR users, maybe they won’t.
      Maybe your posting here will encourage others to question IT management in a more positive way (?)
      Best of wishes in recieving the answers

    • #3232050

      Well let’s see

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      If you are a bad tech who can you successfully blame for it ?
      If you are a bad manager who can you successfully blame for it?

      Which group of techs got together and said I think we should all be outsourced ?

      Which group said we are not really critical to the business function in the short term, lets lay ourselves off ?

      You as a manager provide the environment we get techy in. If it’s not a good one that’s your fault, not ours.

      Lot’s of office politics, your fault.
      Burn outs, your fault
      Unhappiness due to lack of salary / prospects your fault.
      No job security, your fault
      Predjudice, cliques, favouritism, your fault.

      Us bottom feeding types on the management food chain, can only do two things to address the sitaution.
      Complain and put ourselves on the next train out.
      Put ourselves on the next train out.

      I personally work for a very big company, they have excellent staff retention rates, good salary, excellent environment. I’m also considered by them to be pretty good at what I do.

      So expain why one week after the firm gave us a celebratory dinner having completed a major enhancement to the software suite on time and reasonably on budget working our asses off for ten months, we all got put at risk for a redundancy round.
      Totally out of the blue, no intimation of disaster, nothing. I’d relocated there nine months previous.

      Negative about management, cannot imagine why.

      Now could say I should be positive about the fact that I kept my job, but I still don’t know why I was put at risk and I still haven’t been told why I didn’t get let go.

      So the negativity is gained through personal experience.

      • #3276824

        Stay on task

        by the old man ·

        In reply to Well let’s see

        Everything you needed to learn you learned when you were 5. Obvously you missed this step.

        Let’s see, what value did you add to the post

        1. It’s always some else’s fault!

        2. It’s never your fault.

        3. It’s always someone’s fault.

        Are you saying that no boss has ever done anything positive for you Or are you just ranting to rant?


        • #3209449

          Read it again

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Stay on task

          When I drop a bollock, I hold up my hand and say so.
          Do you ?

          You do understand that it may be of benefit to your standing as a manager within a company to do things that are not benefits to those who work for you.

          Or did you miss that bit ?

          Now personally I can live with that as long as you don’t say you are doing it for ME !

          A positive department is based on the manager and his people doing well, if doing well means sticking your people on welfare and outsourcing, positive goes well negative doesn’t it !

          Why would someone be positive about being made redundant ?
          It might make you look good as a manager, but it’s unlikely to do crap for the git under the exit sign is it.

          At your next appraisal, I suggest, you suggest you need to work on responding more positively to criticism.

      • #3276697

        Well let’s see….

        by lnxliz ·

        In reply to Well let’s see

        Beautifully written. I could not agree more.

      • #3276672

        Completely agreed

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Well let’s see

        And shared of some experiences. In fact I was a part of a big celebratory meeting in which we were all told that we were doing a better job than in any previous period. Custonmer satisfaction was at an all time high.
        1 week later, half the staff was let go…..the other half was overworked and eventually failed to perform to anything near what it did. Customer complaints often. I guess I was lucky, I lost my job on the 1/2 staff cut.

      • #3209578

        one thing i have found over and over

        by bluron ·

        In reply to Well let’s see

        is it so much easier to complain and point fingures than it is to try and change things in a positive manner. i invite you to step into the shoes of management for one week. to do that, really look at what they do and understand why things happen the way they do. do you really believe the managers have that much control over what a company does?
        lets look at your list a bit. outsourcing, why was that done. what was accomplished by it (other than pissing you off). who told the manager to outsource?
        burn outs? managers burn out too. whos fault is that, still theirs?
        unhappiness due to lack of salary and progress. what is the companies policy on raises and promotions? if your not getting these things is it really the managers fault?
        job security? managers are at risk of losing their jobs also. remember there is either a president or a board of directors the manager must answer to. if the manager does not show growth and profit, he’s out.
        predjudice, cliques, that can be created by any one in the company, doesn’t have to be the manager. favouratism, that is a human failing and if you have a boss that likes suck ups, then i have little use for them too.
        it is so very easy to convince ourselves that someone else is always to blame for our problems. i am not saying all managers are good, just like not all IT techs are good. in more cases than not, the manager is stuck in the middle, shit rolling down from on top and shit being shovled from below. maybe trying to understand the situation causing the problem and finding a positive solution would better serve all than sitting on your hands and pointing at one group and saying they are to blame for everything. as for office politics, the worst people for playing that game are the workers themselves. i’ve spent 30 years managing people in one industry to another. some people i got along with famously, others turned out to be a constant war. personalities don’t always match and that causes friction, but to say managers anre souly responsible for your problems is pretty immature. they are not perfect and i don’t think you are either. give each other a chance, try working with them instead of us them mentality. you might be supprised. if i am wrong and your manager is a real jerk, like i said they are only human and nobody is perfect.

        • #3209425

          That’s two now

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to one thing i have found over and over

          The question was negativity towards management, not line managers, department managers, but the people running the company.

          I know what my job is, do you know yours?

          Simple question, if it benefits the company, or even the manager to get rid of me, why am I expected to be positive about this, for you ?
          the company ?

          Try to understand the problem, the problem is very simple, I won’t work for nothing so the shareholders can have their values maximised.
          Try to understand that.

          I worked my way up from the bottom to the heady heights of senior developer, no certs, no degree, just a lot a hard work, that my managers and my employers have are and will benefit from. If I cost more than I add value, they’re asking me to do the wrong thing. I’m a developer !

          I do tell them when that’s happening, but of course there’s a cash flow problem hampering the possibly of investment, or I can’t say it’s risk free!

          Just to make it clear, I’m a tech because I like it and I’m damn good at it, not because I was too stupid to be a manager.

          Bearing in mind my first day at work was in Jan 81, and I’ve spent less than six months in total out of work since then. Describing me as immature because you took my post as a personal attack is hilarious.

        • #3230214

          can’t be a personal attack

          by bluron ·

          In reply to That’s two now

          i have been retired now since 1992, i have nothing to prove and nothing to disprove. the point being made in regards to immaturity lies with the fact that you were blameing all ills on management. that attitude is immature and does not do you justice. re-read what is written, you will see that i also blame management, only difference is i also blame workers. try wrapping your mind around that and don’t take things so personal. life is much to short to be so cynical this early in life. enjoy life and if you enjoy being an IT tech horay for you. too many people work at jobs they do not like because they have no choice. if you are lucky enough to work at what you like fabulos but please take some responsiblilty for your own grief at times.

        • #3230145

          It comes with the terrriorty

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to can’t be a personal attack

          As a manager you get to be the company bad guy, you make decisions, good or bad that affect the livelihood’s of those work work for you.
          Fine that’s the job, don’t tell me I have to like being on the receiving end though.
          Times have been hard recently, not as hard for me as they’ve been in the past, but much harder than they have been in a while.

          That means manager’s have had to make, or implement some very unpopular decisions, unopular = negative.
          Even if like me you didn’t get booted into the street, it still means you’ve got to be looking over your shoulder all the time checking for the corporate hit man, wth the dagger and a figure on the bottom line of their spreadsheet.

          It’s often said that techs don’t communictae successfully to management, communication is a two way process, so if there’s a failure, it’s on both sides.

          Edited for spilleng misteak, that made me look like a uneducated fool.

        • #3230106

          “…so if there is a failure it….”

          by bluron ·

          In reply to It comes with the terrriorty

          for once i completly agree with you and that statement. i hope life treats you better soon so you may enjoy the benefits of your labours. take care.

      • #3209576

        Life is what you make it….

        by mckool ·

        In reply to Well let’s see

        It sounds like a cliche,…and I have no doubt you would see it that way,…but you are completely wrong when you put all of that blame on management. I have been let go, and I have been promoted but I still have an overall positive view of those experiences. The times that I have taken a negative view are the same times that the situation was made worse by my attitude. Looking back at those times, I see where I was at fault.

        I cannot judge your specific situation since I wasn’t there, but I can say that your post tells me a great deal about your view of that situation.
        I always look at different situations from the perspective of ” What part did I play in this?”, or “What can I learn from this?” and sometimes I see what I did wrong and sometimes I see that I did nothing wrong. Every situation is different – I’ve worked for jerks and good bosses – but I have often found that some of these decisions are based on information that employees do not always have.

        It’s amazing to see how easy it is to point the finger elsewhere.

        • #3209408

          What part did I play in this ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Life is what you make it….

          Well lets see.

          I was foolishly born to parents who couldn’t afford to pay for my full time education.

          I foolishly finished school in the requisite number of years when unemployment was at an all time high.

          I was foolishly too young to vote, so intelligent old people, mainly managers voted Thatcher in and consigned an entire generation to slave wages and negative equity or re-posession and welfare.

          I foolishly made my self look like a communist when I joined a union in a closed shop, should have stayed on welfare really.

          I foolishly got far to big for my britches and took you can’t progress your career because you’d have to be a manager and manager’s have to have degrees to heart.

          I foolishly joined a state of the art massive company using cutting edge technology to send xml content to their 15 year old non xml aware in house vpn, which strangely did not come right out at the other side !

          I foolishly assumed that I was working with competent people, but competent people don’t design order processing software with a 1:1 link with customer do they. Especially when they want more than one order per customer!.

          I’ve made lot’s of mistakes in my career, never ones that cost me or anyone else their job though. I’ve successfully put people out of work though (thru automation), perhaps I would make a good manager.

          The perception is to be a good manager you reduce costs, on account of increasing revenue requires an initial investment, a risk and it’s much harder. Not to mention trusting that stroppy tech to get it done, because ‘you’ aren’t capable of it.

          As techs we implement business policy, not set it, I’ll have a go if you want, but then your boss might suddenly see an opportunity to maximise shareholder value. Bet you’d learn from that as well.

          It’s amazing to see how easy it is to point the finger ANYwhere else and it’s much less effort to point down.

      • #3209501

        Sour Grapes

        by automaton ·

        In reply to Well let’s see

        Speaking as a “good tech” who turned into a “bad Manager” I would say this:

        A tech needs the right tools for the job, no matter how “good” he is if he doesn’t have the right tools he will not do the job as good as he could.

        Same for a Manager. It doesn’t matter how good he is a organizing, motivating, etc. If his people only care about money, vacation days and talking on the phone he is out of luck.

        A manager’s performance is measured by the performance of those who report to him, so no matter how hard he tries he can be undercut by someones else’s bad attitude.

        How many managers have you undercut?

        • #3209401

          Not one, never have, never will.

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Sour Grapes

          I work my ass off, I’m damn good at what I do and I’ve been doing it for a very long time.

          I’ve had the rug pulled from under me on a regular basis though.

          A final point about money, it’s not mine or even anybodies only motivation. However if as a manager you wish to deprive me of it as an indicator of your success in benefitting our employer, you’d better offer me something in it’s place, something better than being proud my CEO can afford a porsche !, or the fact that some shares that I can’t afford have increased in value.

          The only bad attitude I have, is that I whinge when someone asks me to smile while they are raping my ass, then only offer me half the remuneration with a ‘take or leave it’.

          I do care about the quality of my work, all evidence suggests I care far more about it than my employers.

          Well I can do a horrible bodge within the time frame you set without talking to me, or I can rewrite the entire product.

          Horrible bodge it is then !

          Who did you let undercut you ?

        • #3209377

          Sour Grapes

          by automaton ·

          In reply to Not one, never have, never will.

          Your apparent vitriol illustrates a die-hard “us vs. them” attitude with which further discussion would be fruitless.

          By virute of “shouting” and “colorful” language you win, I concede…

        • #3230212

          i will also join you in defeat

          by bluron ·

          In reply to Sour Grapes

          but it is the defeat of those that take the time to listen and try to educate. try to introduce some balance in the work place and the world. your comments were very insightful and to the point, thank you

        • #3230140


          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to i will also join you in defeat

          Well, I tried to explain to you, but because your education is so limited, I failed.
          No you didn’t fail, I agree with everyone of your points, with two provisos.
          None of them applied to me.
          I haven’t got a skills deficit.
          I can communicate with managers.
          I am an extremely competent developer.
          I am very committed, honest and hard working.
          I have enormous respect for anyone who can do something better than I can.

          I do not suck up, I don’t pander, I call a spade a shovel.
          So where am I going wrong? Do tell, come on educate me !
          I love to learn as well.

          Just spare me the salute the logo crap OK.

        • #3230112

          Tony you are right about everything except one thing

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to LOL

          Non-technical Mangers like the suckups. Even if they are the &%## ups. Good techs do the work and spend tons of personal time developing new skills.

          BTW, I just migrated an Oracle DB to Linux from HPUX in 2 hours (120GB) a first for me.

          THe point is management doesn’t realize we are learning all the time…

        • #3230205

          The one constant

          by mckool ·

          In reply to Sour Grapes

          When you look at your situations, what is the one “constant”…? Spoon-fed answer: yourself.

          Get over it. You’re not a victim of the evil managers and their scheme’s to ruin your happiness. As long as you have the atittude you are demonstrating, then you will “prove” yourself correct.
          Enjoy your choice.

        • #3230138


          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to The one constant

          I am enjoying it, thank you very much. I don’t view the fact that I don’t want to be a manager as a failure. Is that what you are saying ?
          I’m getting the distinct impression, that the reason I’m irritating you is that, I refuse to be a victim.
          Well I can live with that.

        • #3230113

          Actually your mentality is that of a victim

          by mckool ·

          In reply to ROTLMAO

          I didn’t imply that you should want to be a manager. I am saying that you have a victim mentality. I have been in many different situations both good and bad and I take responsiblity for my choices in all situations. Are there bad managers? Of course. Are you a bad employee? maybe not your skillset but, quite frankly from what I see on this forum, you’re attitude would make you an undesireable person to hire or keep hired.

          When you see a repeatable pattern in your life then you need to look at your choices.

          It’s a great deal like relationships, some people always choose the wrong partner for some odd reason and then claim that “all men/women are evil”.

          Obviously, these are judgements based solely on your posts. If I met you in person I might have a different opinion…I kind of doubt that but I might.

        • #3231737

          Really – Try again matey

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to ROTLMAO

          The polite rebuttal is , that turns out not to be the case.
          In english, bollocks mate.

          Even in my six year period of contracting, I only had four contracts and the five months in total of that I spent I out of work is the only time I ever have been.

          I started on a welfare to work program, entering numbers into a dumb terminal on shifts in 81. I started self educating in 85, got my dream move in to IT in 87, never looked back since, bend lead /senior developer since 92.

          Do you know I did all that? attitude.

          I’d be the first to admit, that my complete disinterest in paying lip service to concepts I have no respect for has caused me a few difficulties.

          However there are people who respect honesty, I’m one of them. I don’t expect people to like me, and anyone who doesn’t and says they do for whatever reason is in my cultured and erudite opinion a complete and utter tosser.

        • #3230143

          What SHOUTING ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Sour Grapes


        • #3212705

          You’re right.

          by mckool ·

          In reply to What SHOUTING ?

          You are absolutely right. You are in most of these types of situations because of your attitude.

          This isn’t a personal attack despite how it might appear. You’re posts just seem to have a bit of vitriol and defeatism. I see that a great deal in IT and the individuals never think for one minute that they could have contributed in any way to their predicament.

          If you are not that way then bully for you. I have been that way on a couple occasions and, when I look back, I can see and admit that. I find that I have been respected as an employee and as a manager because of my ability to step back and see all sides of a situation.

          I’m curious,…if you didn’t get the “last word” in this string of posts, would you ever quit replying?

          I honestly don’t believe that we will come to an agreement but, I have to admit to having some fun with this. I’ll probably quit before long so you don’t have to worry about putting that to the test.

        • #3212608

          If it keeps goin’ it’s interesting

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to What SHOUTING ?

          Who knows I might have to interact with someone with your sort of outlook, a bit of practice might help me avoid pressing someone’s buttons in ignorance.
          Unintentionally irritating someone is something I try to avoid, that sort of thing leads to bad surprises.

          We may have both read each other a bit wrong. I posted a list of reasons that are ‘popular negatives’ about management. In return three managers posted other factors, which could lead to a cessation of employment, and suggested a bit more logo saluting and lot less complaining might be in order.

          Looked like a cop out to me, like you were saying it wasn’t the market, business strategy or management incompetency that led to the situation, but a personal failing on the employee’s part.

          That can only be true in indivdual cases, large scale layoffs are a failure of management.
          If all your key employees are tossers that are dragging down your business then there ahas been no management.

          The best advice I can give any IT manager, is get good people in and keep’em. The latter is quite simple with people who are tech happy, because they do it for more than the money in the first place. All you have to do is not get caught taking the urine out of them.

        • #3212472

          Now Tony I just have to disagree. :D

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to If it keeps goin’ it’s interesting

          Most times it’s not the IT Department Manager who’s at fault but Upper Management who tell the lowly IT Manger what to do how to do it and when. :0

          I’ve often been in the position of having to lay off staff because the [b]Company[/b] has chosen a different direction generally to [b]Corporate Suicide.[/b] But in every case once things have become inevitable I have kept my staff fully informed as to what is going on asked does anyone want to leave and had jobs for them to go to. [b]Upper Management[/b] didn’t like this because those [b]Overpaid Disposable Expensive Workers[/b] went to another company who where competing against us and brought our work procedures to those companies which always made it harder to keep the company that they where let go from competitive in the market. :^0

          My comeback has always been [b]Well you fired them what did you expect them to do go home and cry for ever?[/b] :p

          Of course when you get [b]Bean Counters[/b] running the show I know that it’s time to leave for a different position and I tell all my staff the same thing. It’s makes the [b]Bean Counters[/b] really happy when the entire Service Department Resigns as then they can replace them all with $2.00 per hour staff who know nothing and provide such a great service to their customers which ends up costing them sales. X-(

          Col ]:)

        • #3212388

          There’s been a lot of confusion in this thread

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to If it keeps goin’ it’s interesting

          between individual managers and ‘management’.

          I’ve only seen one departmental manager contribute massively to a company’s downfall in twenty years. The rest were doing as they were told, no matter how stupid.

          If the guy did make a mistake, it was trusting his mate’s software firm to know what they were doing. That I could live with, but his second mistake was to flog an obviously dead horse until he got the push and went to work for them.

          Hmmm, wait a minute !

          The first time I saw the code they were producing (far too late), was a definite WTF moment.

          Hit the number one spot in my list of the worst code I’ve ever seen.

          Pushed into number two when I bumped in to the ordering system designed so you could only have one order per customer.

          Once constant in any creative process is some of your ideas are not going to work, skill is recognising this as early as possible. It costs less that way.

    • #3232035

      Why the negativity? Because it is usually VALID!

      by techytype ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      First, full disclosure, I am the “boss” in my company. From what I see in too many organizations management uses employees as disposable pawns. People are not stupid and recognize when they are not being treated fairly. Unfortunately for too many people they have obligations requiring them to accept and put up with management BS. Of course as soon as a better opportunity presents itself these same employees bolt to the dismay and surprise of management. I enjoy Dilbert, the scenarios put forward in this strip are all too real.

    • #3276974

      Negativity about Managment??? Were do I begin….

      by dasmith ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I work for a communications company as a lead floor technichan in their Internet support department. After working there for a year and a half as a temp answering calls from customers, I was employeed full time by the company. Within 6 months I was given the Lead position, still speaking to customer, but only on more of a higher level of support.

      I would rather be working in their IT department support the companies network, as the company provided finiancial assistance for my schooling to earn my Associates degree, and continue to provide that same assistance for my Bachlors. Yet after my second time I applied for an open position, I was informed I did not have the experience or knowledge to do the position, I gained a part time job work as a Help desk coordinator for a local college that I earned my Associates degree from to place on my resume, I am still passed up. A member of the team I help manage is given a third interview and knows a 1/3 of what I do about the job. Why should I not hold a grudge. And companies, especially their managment, wonder why we look else where for positions out side the company.

      • #3276900


        by homer4598 ·

        In reply to Negativity about Managment??? Were do I begin….

        What you describe does not show bad management necessarily. If what you say is true, then obviously there is another reason that you are being turned down for that position. It might be that they don’t like your personality or your attitude; they have an incorrect impression of your skill set; they feel that they need you in your present position as something best for the company; or something else. Perhaps management should be more open and honest, but people (all people) generally tend to take the easy way out. You need to find out the real story. Maybe sit down with HR or the hiring manager for that department and discuss what you say here.

      • #3276811

        Promotion – not given:

        by johnson-clayton ·

        In reply to Negativity about Managment??? Were do I begin….

        I have to agree, sometimes there are other reasons then not knowning enough for the job. I worked for a wireless company and was along with taking care of local systems including retail, managed a b2b sales office. I put my name in for a retail managers position and was interviewed but when it came down to the disicion, the regional manager gave it to the #2 person stating that I was doing to good of a job and it would be hard to replace me in my current position and did give me a raise. Scarey enough, six months later the company closed down my office and the regional administrative office and myself and all other “management” except retail was laid off by the company in my region.

      • #3209587

        errrr, as a grunt contractor at the moment. I’m not sure I should respond

        by danlm ·

        In reply to Negativity about Managment??? Were do I begin….

        Eh, but I will. lol, no guts no glory.

        I worked for a state government for 22 years. Our IT department was tight. We had standards in place years before most of the rest of the IT departments did. We had to submit weekly status reports showing our tasks, hours, and progress on all our assignments years before the rest of the state IT departments did. We were able to meet all mandated compensation reporting requirements within the time frame assigned(business environment was workers comp insurance), before most private insurance companies did. And with less of a staff.

        The wisdom of the state, governor’s and the like. Not management, but what I consider the corporate white tower consolidated all IT departments throughout the state without providing the staff’s an idea as to where they would be after this consolidation. Many people left, departments became short staffed and productivity fell.
        I always considered my on site management, including the IT manager and the person above her as completely fair and considerate. They wanted things done by their IT staff within a reasonable budget and time frame. They got it, and they treated their IT staff well.

        I was one of the people that finally left, and currently am a contractor with a publishing company. I listen to the people complain there about their management, and think they have no idea how bad it really can be. Their management may not understand everything going on, but they treat their people well. Maybe not paying top dollar, but their is a lot of freedom.
        I may have a chance to get full time with this company. I’ll take it, because I do like their management and what they are trying to do.

        I think a person’s idea of what management is(good/bad) is in their perspective of what they know. I also think that IT don’t have the corner on not liking management.

        From my experience, I didn’t think the ivory white tower of corporate state government had a clue of what the waisted away. But, then again. I was a grunt, just like I am now. And I also don’t know what they really wanted in the end or what they were trying to accomplish. I don’t think they got what they wanted, but. Hey, what do I know.

        I like my job now. I moved on. I found what I think, at least at the moment is good management and a resonably challanging environment. I hope that others who dislike how they are treated can find some way to enjoy their job again too.


      • #3209438

        The Real Reason is…

        by jbartlett ·

        In reply to Negativity about Managment??? Were do I begin….

        As a manager who has hired (and fired) more than a few people over the years I can assure you the reasons given for not hiring someone are usually politically corrected B$.

        A hiring manager has to be very carefull to eliminate candidates that will not fit in a job to preserve the dynamics of the group. The risk of lawsuits and/or complaints encourages a manager to dismiss a candidate based on a “safe” reason, “not enough experience” for example. If manager thinks you will be a bad social fit for the department or may have puffed-up your resume to look good, s/he can’t come out and say that for fear of a lawsuit.

        I’m not saying any of this applies in your specific situation. But it possible that you were not given the position for other reasons and “lack of experience” was just a generic reason.

        • #3230247


          by dasmith ·

          In reply to The Real Reason is…

          The reason they re-opened the position I am starting to believe is that myself and one other person, in which both of us are equally quailfied, make more that they want to pay for the position.

    • #3276973

      Of course some of us moan!

      by chaz chance# ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      After all, one is more inspired to write when we have something to get off our chests, than when everything is hunky-dory.

      My company let me have unlimited paid time off after each of my partner’s miscarriages. I get above inflation pay rises. The only barrier to getting training is finding courses I want to go on (they paid for some of my degree, which I had started before joining the company). Officially I don’t get flexi-time, but I do get it.

      In return, I have been coaching my colleagues in “managing up”. This is a process where if you know more about a subject than your boss, you decide what decision s/he should make, then you carefully filter the information you give them to remove anything that may confuse them or prevent them from making the decision that is needed. The boss grows more confident as they get kudos from making good decisions, and trusts you more and more. The department excels, and is less likely to be downsized or out-sourced.

      No job is safe, few are easy. But then, we wouldn’t need paying if they were, would we?

      • #3276919

        I cannot beleive you even ask this question!!!!!

        by freebear ·

        In reply to Of course some of us moan!

        What do I like about my job?

        1. I like what I do.
        2. I like who I do it with.
        3. I pretty much like my pay. (Until I see what the boobs in charge are paid to sit around and ask stupid questions and hold meetings where nothing is accomplished.)
        4. I like my immediate boss. (Would not want his job or have to answer to who he answers to.)

        Still, I cannot help but go on a rant here. Boss’s/owner’s act as if they have a right to try to get something done for free. Well, I have been what I thought was pretty much free enterprise all my life, still am. Owned my own company for a while and did well for a time, so I understand both sides. But it really abrades the skin off my ass when I hear American corprations bitch about a lack of employee loyalty at the same time they are all squirty in their britches about outsourcing to India. Pure and simply, get in, learn skills no one else there knows, don’t show anyone else…protect your job! This is not an attitude I want, it is an attitude brought on by corporations who refuse to understand they have an obligation to their employees and their welfare. Not just minimal compliance with govt requirements.

        So, for all you owners/CEOs out there, go ahead, knock yourself out by squeezing your employees and satisfying the short term mentality of your shareholders. All you are doing is breeding a new generation of competitors who know your business better than you do because they do the actual work.

        Hell, even Microsoft knows this.

        • #3276788

          Heres the deal….IT worker, constant retraining vs. gardner

          by beoweolf ·

          In reply to I cannot beleive you even ask this question!!!!!

          The average manual laborer get $15 – $20 an hour… a trained, certified MCSA/MCSE is often offered the same, if he also has Exchange, Unix, Sun and SQL experience. I saw the job offer in a recent classifed.

          Plus he should be able to handle Desk top support in his free time.

          Is that the fault of management, who knows?

        • #3276682

          So True

          by robbi_ia ·

          In reply to Heres the deal….IT worker, constant retraining vs. gardner

          Here I sit with Degrees and certifications, experience to boot…

          yet my daughter’s 24 year old friend with no education is making my wage …. as a short order cook at a truck stop!

          Now mind you, I LOVE my job, it’s why I’m still here.

          But it would be lovely to make a bit more than a short order cook!

        • #3209432

          One Big Difference…

          by jbartlett ·

          In reply to Heres the deal….IT worker, constant retraining vs. gardner

          There is one key point that is missing from your message.

          A low-skilled labourer can make $15-$20 per hour. Sure no question there. But that will never change either. You could cut grass for $18.35 an hour for the rest of your life without seeing a pay increase.

          A fresh MCSE may start at the same rate, but has the potential to move up and get better money.

          If the company advertising for a experienced, certified Windows/Linux/AS400 all-knowing ubertech can fill the job at $20 an hour that is brilliant management. There are getting what they need for less than half market value.

          On the other hand anyone who takes that job is either desperate or a sucker.

    • #3276970

      Not all bad :)

      by jaarius ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?


      Without a doubt the most important thing is that my manager gives me the license I need to do my job. We also have a weekly sit down where I update him on the progress of current issues but he makes the meeting a time to resolve issues or find solutions, NOT just a time for me to prove that I am keeping busy.


    • #3276953

      infocon rocks

      by thomas.l.deskevich ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I work for a company in a small town in Ebensburg PA. The ownership are friendly, and accessable. It is a pleasant working environment.
      The company willing to invest what it takes to keep us current. I have only once been in the owners office once about a complaint in my 8+ years here. The move here was a parrallel one. But the biggest factor as I thought and prayed about the decision was the management. It was a good move.

    • #3276950

      Poor promotion ..

      by metro_au ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      There is often a poor path to management, technicians that are good at their job are rarely promoted to management, and if they are, don’t have the expertise to make it.

      There are those that pretend to be good at management, but have little technical expertise – so they are treated with distane by their technical staff. And generally, they aren’t good managers either, so they can’t make the best of the situation.

      These problems happen in all disciplines, but the problems appear to be more acute in IT: possibly because of the passion most IT people have for their job, and partly because most senior management has no clue what makes a good IT employee, and even less of an idea what makes a good IT manager.

      • #3276835

        Bad decisions…

        by fixitsteve ·

        In reply to Poor promotion ..

        I have to completely agree. Most existing (and poor) IT Managers look at their past and think that this is the way that they should move their employees. ‘Hell, I was a tech and got promoted to a Manager, so that’s what I’m going to do to them!!!’. The reality is most techies have no desire or lack the skills to become a Manager, but go along in fear of hampering their careers. I made that mistake once and will never again. Managers need to talk to their employees and ask the proper questions (even the hard ones). Techies…be honest and up-front. Above all…if you have something to say, SAY IT. There is nothing wrong with saying what you need to say, you just need to say it right. If you don’t know what I mean, talk to a successful Manager and ask them how to bring up your point. You would be amazed at what you can accomplish if you approach it in the right way. Annoying, but a reality…

    • #3276918

      Great Question

      by boston ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I am hoping the answers that you receive from this question will help us managers.

    • #3276910

      how about we look at ourselves

      by thomas.l.deskevich ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I know that some bosses are just mentally unstable and impossible to work for. But could it be possible that we need to look at ourselves and see if we can improve? When you think about it,that is all you can really do. Could it be that WE are sometimes the ‘jerk’? You might think that you are the greatest person in the world to manage, but are you sure? Maybe we should ask our wives to get an honest opinion!

      • #3276884

        Ask the missus ?

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to how about we look at ourselves

        Ah you mad ?
        She’ll remember the three jobs you haven’t done as promised.
        Not to mention every mistake you’ve ever made, including the ones your mam told her about.

        Of course we are capable of improving.
        However if you aren’t going to get paid for it, why bother ? Get ahead without improving, go golfing with the CEO and let him win.

        The main problem in business, is at a certain point in most firms your only opportunity for advancement is management.
        Don’t know about you but, I don’t want to be a manager.

        Find a firm that understands that making a good tech into a bad manager is a double screw up, I did, joy.
        There are still six tech positions above me in the hierarchy, plenty to aim at, keep me interested and enthused.

        • #3276810

          I have to agree to an extent..

          by thomas.l.deskevich ·

          In reply to Ask the missus ?

          Every time my wife and I sit outside, she starts pointing out things I can do around the house.
          But I would not give her up for anything. There is one person for everybody and I have found that person.

        • #3209392

          I’m pleased for you

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to I have to agree to an extent..

          I’ve been with mine twenty years. The secret to this long longevity is keeping the hell out of each other’s face, for us anyway. It’s the results that matter.

    • #3276905

      It’s just enough,

      by ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      and with significant sacrifices in quality of life/standard of living, it’s just enough to keep the wolves from calling for debt everynight. I run an “If it can’t be paid off in 1 payment, it doesn’t get bought household”.

      As wonderful as my employer thinks they’ve made it for me, it’s a kept life and falls far short of what inflation and the standard of living in the USA should be considering the resources and tehcnology that is available.

    • #3276897

      Well speaking from past experience

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I started a a low level tech back in the days before PC’s and worked mainframes which I liked. Over time I was promoted to Service Manager and I kept my staff happy by insulating them from Upper Management who had absolutely no idea of what it was that they where doing. They would go out and buy something because they where told it was good but it didn’t work with our systems and we had to make it work because the Boss or whoever got a great deal on the item and where saving money when actually they where costing far more to implement than what they saved.

      I got sick and tired of Office Politics which I didn’t play and was constantly on the outer because I didn’t belong to one group or the other. My budgets where cut without reason and complaints where made when my department couldn’t return the same cash flow as they did the previous year with less staff and more obstacles put in place to prevent us doing our work that brought in the money and not shuffling papers around all day so that the Upper Management and Accountants where happy with the lack of work being done.

      I hated the Red Tape that was put in place to prevent jobs getting done and the way that Management made a simple job hard to do by placing so many obstacles in the way to prevent the work getting done.

      Finally about 10 years ago I walked out on Big Business and started up for myself. The idea was to spend a couple of days per week working for some small business and spend the rest of the week with my Play Toys. That didn’t happen apparently several of my staff felt exactly the same as me and approached me for a job and brought along a long client list and while I was a drunk as a Skunk I agreed I knew better when I sobered up but by then the damage had been done.

      Sometimes my staff complains but never bout the way that I treat them just the problem jobs that shouldn’t be a problem.

      A good example is a small business owners NB that has 99% usage on the HDD and no longer plays music files properly. He will not accept that he needs to clean some junk off the HDD so that the poor thing will work again and has been constantly attempting to reinstall the sound driver to make it work. And the really silly part here is that he has a 120 GIG external USB drive that he will not use which could hold most of the data that is currently filling up his NB HDD but he refuses to use this because it’s another thing that he has to pull out of the case & plug in.

      Of course it didn’t help when he demanded to get me to stop the work related pop ups to stop because it was getting in the way of his Porn Browsing.


    • #3276891

      Oh so accurate.

      by will_b ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I would have to say that after almost 2 decades in the same company / same department. I at some time have seen all aspects of this thread to be accurate.
      Why are we so negative about management, it has been because the working situation is getting worse. We are branded with a bios, and aren’t able to change the managers impressions of that bios. It is how we are treated as knowlegeable employees. It is actually learned (digested knowlege) over time, as actions still can speak louder then words.
      I have personally seen good / excellent people take courses, study, and have excellent interpersonal skills with other employees. Yet watched managers stomp all over these great people, pass them over, give jobs to less qualified / newer / greener people.
      Consultants that come and go have quickly identified this situation after less then 1 year. Instructed the great people the only way to solve their problem is to look outside the company.
      Does management know of the situation, you bet. At many opertunities, we express our discontempt, and yet they continue to say they are making strides, and we fail to see the results / deliverables of these supposed strides they keep saying they are taking.
      Our management gives the odd person a chance as well to prove themselves in good roles, but it is a situation where you are thrown into the water, and sink or swim, and by the way management will not help you (no mentoring, guidance, or assistance). And when you sink, management just takes the rug from under your feet, and pulls it away, with no communication / stearing / explanations (they decided to change things in meetings where you are not involved).
      We have seen this happen to many many great people (12 or more) over time. All to often.
      It is unfortunate, but I say the negativity towards management is actually learned by being wise.

      Personally I have a excellent manager, and his boss I owe the world to. They are good / great people but are not the best managers. Yet in our organisation, we have other managers that are just terrible as managers, rude as people, and even worse on how they treat people through actions and words.

    • #3276863

      Being caught in the neck…

      by the admiral ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I think the animosity comes because of a few reasons:

      1. Most IT managers do not have a clue as to what they are managing. In fact, I believe that most if not all of them could have a link to used car sales. The fact of the matter is that the biggest problem that I see is that the managers rely on technical members to give them a time AFTER they have already promised that project to be delivered next day.

      2. They have no idea of the intracacies that are needed in order to deliver the project. I have seen projects promised and the managers do not know that they do not even have the software to deliver the product and there is a lockdown.

      3. All decisions are based on financial downsizing, NOT on financial investment. CEO’s pitch that they want to invest in the people and in the projects, but then they turn around cut funding and lay off people. That is not investment.

      4. All decisions that are not based on finace are based on giving a small amount of people a large amount of reqard – see board of directors, CEO, CIO, and other executives. Since most companies have switched to that plan, the worker bees do not even get a pizza party out of the deal.

      5. Most managers are not technical enough to use the tools, but are presenting the information. See sending a dummy to do a Doctors job.

      Those are my thoughts.

    • #3276854

      Differing Goals; No Communication

      by fbuchan ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      The main reason for the animosity is that the goals of IT management are different, and there is generally no downward communication. I’ve been on all sides of the situation, from worker bee many years ago (20+), to IT manager, to consultant, and now to business owner/IT manager.

      As a manager your goals are often driven by the next layer in the company, which these days is populated by a fair number of people whose experience is questionable, and whose knowledge came from a book first and foremost. When they say “cut” you have two choices, and only one of those generally results in your paycheque continuing to flow into your pocket. They have very little long-term vision, and often no real understanding of the business process or support systems. This isn’t always the case, but it is too often the case, because most companies are being managed by the quarter, or even based on weekly returns.

      The negativity doesn’t occur because of “bad decisions” though, but because they are often rendered without context. If you approach an IT team, sit down, and tell them th efacts of where the decision is coming from, it doesn’t make them any happier, but it shows them some respect — and the respect is all most people want.

      15 years ago I left a company where I was an IT manager when the accountants decided a project lead I was supervising was to be let go, because his years of experience and their sliding pay scale, etc., made him too expensive. It wasn’t that they didn’t need his expertise, but simply that they thought paying this “old guy” a high wage was pointless when they could get two green bodies at the same price. I remember sitting with this guy, who I considered a mentor despite my being his manager, and telling him that he was dust. I told him why, and he thanked me for being honest. The day after that, I resigned and left the company to its fate (it lasted 6 years, and went down in flames under two client lawsuits at the end of that time for some gross service failures).

      Since, I have worked at becoming my own boss, and I am now “the boss” in my own firm. But no one calls me the boss, because I find I don’t have to manage many people very often. I just try to lead by example, take a few minute seach week to explain the shape of things to come and why changes may be in the wind, and do my best to be open to alternatives.

      What I love about my job are the people I work alongside, plain and simple.

      So, to all those who recognize the management crisis in IT (which I think is real), I suggest you consider walking the talk, taking control of your career in stages, and preparing to benefit from the day when the mismanagement in larger corporate businesses leaves the field wide open for those who have passion to do things well. And when you are the manager, never ever let your ego or the position isolate you from th efact communication is a two-way process.

    • #3276852

      Great Boss

      by wdewey ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I have a great boss. He listens to me when I tell him something needs done. He is flexable when I ask for time off. It’s great!


    • #3276842

      No Micro managing

      by tmalandro ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Our boss does not micro manage our tasks. He tells us what he needs done, when it needs to be done and then allows us to run with it. Micro managing is one of the most stressful and irrating issues, since I have found that more time is spent reporting the details then doing real work. When we have issues on a task we let him know and he pulls us together as a group to find a strong resolution.

    • #3276840

      Good days and bad days

      by ryoung2 ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Some days my work environment is great. Some days it is not so great. I don’t think it is my age but I seem to see more of my whining and moaning caused by what I do or do not do rather than being put upon from above. I have worked in environments where my expectations and theirs were different and our paths went other directions. If I need time off I get it. If the company needs me to be here at 3 a.m. or on a holiday weekend I am here. If I really object to a request from above I am usually able to see where it is coming from and my objections are dutifully noted but the job gets done. I am still looking for other opportunities and broadening my skill set, but what I have is very good.

    • #3276836

      Management ?????

      by jdarchangelo ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I have found that most “managers” have little or no management training or skills not to mention a total lack of people skills where it comes to a work environment. They have a tendency to dictate and not work with their people. I have experienced hostile managers that think they can do and say anything they want to because of the position they hold. Upper management will not rectify these issues because they seem to fear if corrective action has to be done on their part they are someway admitting they made an error in judgement putting the person in that position in the first place. They are reluctant to admit their mistakes so the sitution persists. There seems to be little or no planning when a change is dictated. There is a lot of “shoot from the hip” and reactionary changes that cause more changes after some thought is applied and after a lot of negative reaction and feedback. Management needs to be proactive not reactive. Get the team involved. Managers need to remember they are part of the team and not a power figure.

    • #3276832

      What have you done to make your current place of employment a better place

      by dacook ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Back to my second question in my original post:

      What have you done to make your current place of employment a better place for everyone?

      • #3276797

        What I do

        by sr10 ·

        In reply to What have you done to make your current place of employment a better place

        Perform functions the organization didn’t even know it needed (e.g., defining a project management process);
        Sit with end users and guide them through the application functionality so they can make use of it effectively;
        Manage quantitatively whereever possible;
        Go and talk to people in preference to hiding behind email;
        Competitively shopp IT services;
        Extract refunds for products we should never have bought;
        Obtain executive project sponsorship;
        Navigate projects past various agendas.

    • #3276815

      Wonderful Boss

      by smiles8045 ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I have to say that I work for an incredible boss. He really watches out for us, and is totally fair across the board. He pushes us to be our best and encourages us to keep going. He won’t let us sit and be content, he drives us to be creative and always learning. He has turned down raises for himself and said “Give my staff the raise, they did the work, they deserve it.” He will not let other departments (Help Desk, Desktop) dump their work on us, and will defend us if someone doesn’t like that we won’t “help” or be a “team player” by doing someone elses work. He expects a lot out of us, but never more than we can give. He strives to understand us and how we work in order to give us tasks that play to our strengths. I wouldn’t want to work for anyone else.

      • #3276719

        What I did to make it better for everyone?

        by youraveragemanager ·

        In reply to Wonderful Boss

        Universal oneness with everything; what is positive or negative?

        1. Realized years ago that communication is a POSITIVE.

        2. Accepted the fact that praises, promotional presentations, complaints, rants, and any commiseration are all forms of communication.

        3. In the Business and IT world, failed efforts to remove barriers to individual goal attainment create frustration at all levels. One avenue for relief is an open and supportive forum, be it inside or outside the organization.

        4. Organizations are composed of individuals. Consider the cumulative effect of frustration over all individuals.

        5. If one desires to have a wider multifaceted or enlightened view, take off the blinders and accept all forms of communication. In other words focus your concern on obtaining the substantive facts of the communication, and when necessary place less value on the form or venue in which those facts are delivered.

        I deliberately placed this response under “smiles8045” because his/her response encapsulates what I feel is the result of great management and communication. And, because “dacook” asked for positives again.

    • #3276779

      Employees Influence Environment

      by lhgendron ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      You can make things worse or better for your management by the way you respond. I am not a manager, but recognize if I support them, I get a better response. I am fortunate where I work to have an excellent supportive environment all the way to the top of the company.

      • #3209390

        Just not as much as managers

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Employees Influence Environment

        Hey boss, I’ve come with a way for you to stay in budget after you typed the wrong number in the spreadsheet and published it to the rest of the management team.

        I’ll do an extra 12 hours a day for nothing.

        ‘Thank you for your support’

        Of course you get a better response if you support them, they’d get a better response if they supported US, not to mention more support.

        What is the big mystery here, it’s not rocket science.

        If you get something for nothing, the something always ends up being worth nothing, asking for more of it won’t change anything.

    • #3276767

      When managers fail….the long story

      by i’d rather be drumming… ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I’ve been a Director (and been directed as well). I came up through the ranks from programming through project management, worked for a software development company, a non-profit and specialty retailers.

      As a manager I try to be a buffer between my team and ‘the wolves’. I listen to suggestions and ideas, and I advocate to executive management to get training, incentives, promotions, time off, flex schedules, Ferrari’s and Porsche’s for my extremely hard working and dediated team. It doesn’t always work out, and my team suffers. When my team suffers, who do you think gets left holding the proverbial bag?

      I meet with each member of my team in a 1 on 1 session at least twice a month to give them an opportunity to speak candidly. I keep confidences, I help out with HR issues, payroll issues and general bitchiness issues. I offer insughts and opinions to help guide my team to finding a solution for themselves, without letting them twist in the wind too long. Everyone needs the opportunity to learn life lessons as well as be educated in their field.

      Where my managers have failed is that they don’t appreciate how their decisions affect the rank and file. They believe that since I am a buffer between the worker bee’s and management, that they operate with impunity. They behave in a clueless uninformed fashion and believe that they’re always right. I went to a supervisor to seek his help with a very complicated project management issue and for reaching out, I was given a ‘Corrective Action’ notification that stated I need to improve the project within 90 days or risk being fired. Was that supposed to be motivating?

      I have never, in my 11 years as a manager, had to ‘write someone up’. I have never given a perfiormance appraisal that came as a shock to anyone. My team always knows where they stand with me, I abhor politics and don’t need to be credited for doing my job well. If the company is running smoothly as a result of the work my team does, I’m satisfied. I make sure that my team is recognized though – every chance I get.

      I made my last place of employment a better place to work by advocating that certain senior leaders in IS be shown the door for incompetance. For my efforts I was summarily laid off, but not before one leader was escorted off the property, and the other (who laid me off) was shown the door 1 month after he let me go. Am I satisfied that those left behind have a shot at being happy in their jobs again? You bet I am.

      PS. It was hard being out of work for three months, but there are good jobs out there for people who want more than a paycheck. I was fortunate enough to land softly in consulting, and even though the ground isn’t quite as firm as I’d like, I’m sure the right position for me will materialize.

    • #3276763

      Where do I even start with this?

      by server queen ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      To begin with, the original post has an assumption that I find somewhat offensive; that those of us with legitimate complaints about our management’s style or actions are “negative” or that we are somehow responsible if things in our workplace are not continuously improving.

      I’ll answer your last question first: what have I done to make my workplace better for everyone? Well, I do my job, I do it well, and I take pride in it. Other than that, I have zero influence or control. My opinions and expertise are not treated with respect; in fact, with the current management regime, I am not even consulted on decisions that affect my department (my previous manager, while he had his faults, respected my expertise and never failed to at least seek my opinion of changes. This guy won’t even listen to his staff members – he makes up his mind and makes announcements.)

      The #1 thing that chaps my hide lately is this management fad for telling employees that we need to have a “passion” for our work, that if we have that, it’s not work at all. If we’re not happily carrying a Blackberry on our vacation and leaving our pagers on all night, we’re not showing “passion” for our work.

      Folks, I’m going to show just as much “passion” for my work as my work shows for me. As soon as my employer shows me the same devotion and loyalty they’re expecting from me, they’ll get it. As it is, I can work myself into a nervous breakdown, then get fired for taking a day off when I go into the rubber room. I do not see my employer going out of their way, making sacrifices for me, the way they are demanding that I do for them.

      In the old days, an employer showed loyalty to an employee by more or less guaranteeing a good employee lifelong employment. Nowadays, you can be the hardest worker, the most productive person, and the most positive contributor since Pollyanna, and you are still just as likely to be laid off or your job outsourced. There is ZERO loyalty to employees; yet they wonder why we don’t fall all over ourselves to defend our employers?!

      Look, I really like the work I do. I strive to do a good job, stay well ahead of the learning curve, and make positive contributions every day. I really appreciate that I am paid reasonably and mostly left in peace to do my work without excessive micromanagement (although that too is changing with the new management). My employer pays me. In return, I do my work. We’re not best buds, nor do I think we need to be. But this business of asking people to live to work, rather than work to live, is only fair if the employee sees the same kind of devotion in return. If I devote my life to this enterprise, then I think I have a right to expect equal devotion in return.

      Oh, and the next manager that comes to me blathering about “culture change” and “paradigm shifts” is endangering himself greatly. I’ve been through all the management-speak fads; give me a little credit for common sense, please!

      And stop treating employees as if they were six years old! Because ONE person in our department doesn’t wash and doesn’t dress appropriately, an entire roomful of adult professionals gets called on the carpet, upbraided, and told to shower every day and wear shoes and clean clothes?! Give me a freaking break. Deal with the problem child in person, in private. Stop being such a coward about confronting the actual troublemakers.

    • #3276758

      Control and boundaries

      by gsg ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      My employer has a set of boundaries that I know very well, and within those boundaries, I have total control and don’t have to clear every step. I’m trusted to know what I’m doing and that I’ll make choices that are for the good of the project. I have a base set of hours that I need to be here, otherwise, I come and go as I please and is needed for meetings, etc..

    • #3276721

      Seems many missed the point of this discussion

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      It was to focus on the GOOD points instead of dwelling on the bad points.

      There is good and bad everywhere, and you simply make a choice when you want to see.

      Thanks Dacook for at least trying to make things more positive around here.

      Will post my positive post after I finish putting out a few fires….. ;\

    • #3276674

      I love my job…

      by robbi_ia ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I work with wonderful people
      I love what I do
      My immediate boss knows that I know what I’m doing, and rarely “manages” me.

      I could always make more money – I’m in the non-profit sector. But even the IT person in a place like this is doing something special – we don’t do it to get rich.

      Most of the time, folks around here are amazed at my skills. I get thanked often. (you saved my day!)

      It’s not perfect – see the remark above about pay – but it’s the best job I’ve had. 4 years have just flown by!

      Now, what have I done to make it better for everyone?

      This is a team question. My boss and I both got here about the same time. We replaced 5 people who outsourced everything – including network administration. Yeah, so what did the IT manager do? who knows, shuffled paper, I guess.

      We did away with all of the paperwork everyone had to file for every little blip they needed looked at. (we simplified the help desk situation). The IT department became helpers instead of people to be afraid of. We improved service time – and upgraded systems to make everyone’s job a little easier. We stopped outsourcing everything – we do it all, from printer repair to software installs, to webdesign, to information security. We support 250 users in 5 county offices and 22 centers. We also reduced travel costs, as most of the work we do is done remotely (and securely) on all systems.

      I would say, we made IT a service.

    • #3276660

      The trend

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      It is hard to feel good about the management where you work when you are frequently told you are disposable. While that may not be your approach, or indeed mine, that is the approach that many companies are taking- for good or ill.

      People come here to rant about poor management because of the perception that whatever it is, we’re stuck with it.

      I can implement change on a very small level comparitively. If the management from the top is questionable, all other management is suspect.

      I treat my teams like adults and I expect them to be accountable. If they don’t function well in that environment, I manage their efforts more closely. Most people respond well to my style but there are some that perceive me as too soft. Usually they change their attitude after a short time. I have a primary mission- to complete the project on time and on budget. I make my team embrace that desire as well- mostly because they see it as an outcome worth attaining.

      What I can do to overcome poor senior management is to always remember that my teams are made up of people. People should be treated like people. Not disposables.

    • #3209605


      by timandlizh ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Rarely have I found in the IT field technicians who are willing to take the time to properly train new people. My boss, the owner of a small IT consulting, sales and service company, takes the time to teach people about all that he knows—and he knows a LOT. I do, however, completely understand the slamming of management also. The last place I worked at had an IT department completely run by young people with very little life experience, as in real world and people skills stuff. I’m sure there are many of you that can relate. I am very grateful for the few (especially the one for whom I work now) bosses I have come across that are not like that—but are very giving of their time. And when the company does well in a situation, he rewards us by sharing the wealth—another rarity. Thank you dacook for creating this post.

    • #3209549

      Insular Managment, lying management, and the case of the stupids

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Management (having been there) is a tough job. The problem most managers face is pretty simple. They don’t know how to lead. Managers typical try to lie to soften the blow or to make themselves look better. Managers typically are very insular about the goings on. They also promise the world, but when they get a dose of reality from their team, they get upset that it can’t be done. The other major problem is the buck doesn’t stop with the manager.

      A) If your team member screws up, it’s on you. *YOU* take care of it. Don’t invite other managers in, don’t pass it off, and don’t pretend you can’t protect them.

      You need to show your team you’ll protect and care for them. You also need ot make sure they understand that you’ll eat them alive if they do it again.

      B) Clean up communication. Make sure you team KNOWS what is going to happen and understands what is happening up the ladder. You go to the meetings, they don’t.

      C) Stop playing stupid. We all know that you can validate or invalidate the rumors. You need to do so. Rumors will destroy a team way faster than reality will

      D) THE BUCK STOPS WITH YOU. Don’t let other managers try to muscle in. You are the end all be all. This is your team and you need to LEAD them.

      E) Sometimes you are wrong. Own up to it.


      G) Lead, don’t manage

      I don’t do project management anymore because people want to play games and manage MY team. They want to be in on all the action. It was too much of a hassle and I felt like I worked with a bunch used car salesmen that were leading teams.

      • #3230241

        Man can I relate to that

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Insular Managment, lying management, and the case of the stupids

        I got sick and tied of constantly finding people more senior than me walking in ignoring me and then telling members of my team to add this or remove that from a project that we where doing.

        My biggest problem was never with my staff but with Upper Management stuffing up things and then expecting us to fix up their mistakes and take the blame as well when they messed up.

        I constantly loved being thought of as lower than anything in the company but when the brown stuff hit the fan we had to clean up after the stupid salesperson had messed the entire thing up.

        In the end I was visiting the clients advising them on what was required and taking the order which was then passed onto a Salesperson to get the commission. I really didn’t care about the money but I did care when we had to run around to fix up something that should never have been supplied to a company to do the work that they needed.


        • #3230226

          Sounds like we worked at the same place

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Man can I relate to that

          It really makes you wonder WHAT is going on in the ivory tower to make them think they are making good decision.

          Cut staff and expect MORE output…BRILLIANT!

    • #3209459

      From the “other side”

      by prefbid ii ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I’ve been in management most of my life since college. When I shifted to IT, I was “allowed” to stay in the trenches for 3 years. I’ve been booted up the management scale so fast that sometimes I wonder if I missed out on something.

      So here is what I see —

      Layoffs. The company I work for has gone through several rounds of layoffs and is likely to do so again. The main reason? There are too many people here with old skills and are not willing to learn anything new. Yes, the layoffs are presented as “random” draws on the the staff, but if you watch carefully, you will always find a pattern. Management is not perfect and occasionally a few wrong people will be caught up in the reorg — I know, I’ve been one of the “removed” before.

      Leadership. What most people really want as a boss is a leader. Most technical people that I know don’t need a manager. The few people that I have let go have been people who were looking for a babysitter to be their boss. I’m sorry, but I don’t like babysitting. If you are so inept that you need someone to remind you when to come to work, what clothes to wear, or how to behave in a room full of other people, then you need some other line of work. Technology is for grown ups.

      Skill sets. The whole world of technology is constantly on the move. Just plan on having to learn new things. The web is full of good information and it really doesn’t hurt to read a few books along the way. I respect people who come to me and say, “I’ve been reading about how to do …”

      Learn to write. Upper management is mostly about coordinating people and resources to match business needs. The more experience you have, the more I am going to expect that you learn how to communicate that experience. If you are a guru in a technology, but can’t communicate your experiences to others, then yes, you will find yourself on the unemployed list. Old gurus make a lot of money — a lot more than young gurus. If all they can do for me is be a guru, then I will be taking the young ones over the old ones. The old ones are only more valuable if they can communicate better.

      • #3209393

        Good post

        by wind_singer ·

        In reply to From the “other side”

        Very well put…

      • #3209379

        From the other other side

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to From the “other side”

        Lay offs, I love new, still got layed off though.

        Leadership – That’s done from the front and requires followers. You only get people to follow you, if you offer them things THEY want, they have an expectation of success, and you are the best opportunity to get them.

        Skill sets. The moving piece you are talking about is simply the surface. Admin is admin, hardware is hardware and programming is programming. I’ve learnt a lot since 1987 (when I started in IT), but the most valuable skill I have is recognising when an idea, mine or someone elses is not going to work out. It’s my experience that helps me do this earlier in the lifecycle, not my facility in the multiple languages, OS’s and platforms I’ve worked with. The latter is simply a useful by-product of my longevity.

        Learn to communicate. I put a lot of effort into that document, even more into explaining something I find very simple in non-tech terms, tell me why you ignored it anyway. You almost certainly have a sound reason for canning the idea, don’t keep it to yourself.

        Sometimes I get to find out anyway, like the 8 month project that got canned on account of they were negotiating the sale of the business and the prospective new owners wanted to look at the thing in their new light before taking on the cost.

        I do understand business, I contracted thru my own company for six years. I never employed anyone, but if I had and then had to lay them off, I certainly wouldn’t have expected them to happy with me being in profit again. That would make me a self serving hypocritical pratt.

        • #3230305

          Management secrets

          by prefbid ii ·

          In reply to From the other other side

          I think you are assuming that the management that you have had is the management that exists everywhere.

          For example, you said, “I put a lot of effort into that document, even more into explaining something I find very simple in non-tech terms, tell me why you ignored it anyway.” I don’t recall ever ignoring a document. If I disagree with a conclusion, then I usually state so. If I think an idea doesn’t have much chance of success, I usually tell the person that. I write many documents myself that don’t get acted on. I’ve had several that got ignored — not because they did not get it, but because they were scared of the conclusion. However, I am usually vindicated by time and I get to smile about it in the end.

          I see part of my job as writing and explaining things. I don’t get to make all of the decisions and sometimes the people above me disagree with me. They are under no obligation to tell me why they are not going to do something. Sometimes they can’t tell me because it has to do with something that affects the stock price. If they were to always give me an answer except when it is required to remain secret, then it would not be too hard for me to guess when I should dump some of my stock. For their own protection, they have to keep some decisions secret just so they don’t give away other decisions.

        • #3230133

          You should start a new thread then

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Management secrets

          The positive aspects of management.
          I’ve got a very good manager. I’ve had some extremely bad ones as well.
          My point about the negativity is not questioning competency, well not always. It’s that as a manager, you can make a good decision, for yourself and a business that has a very negative impact on me.
          The fact that you have to do that is the job, I simply can’t understand why I should be cheerful about it.
          One very good business decison, was to let me go after I got a system running as smooth as a nut, and leave it in the hands of someone less competent, but cheaper. I don’t care how good you are at your job, you aren’t going to make me happy about that are you ?

          I actually got shown the door for being too good at my job, probably the prime cause for my dissatisfaction with ‘management’

        • #3231693

          Same here

          by prefbid ii ·

          In reply to You should start a new thread then

          I’ve had similar things happen to me. I once worked for a defense contractor — we did such an outstanding job fixing a software package that the government rewarded us by cutting back on the next year’s funding. We ended up having to let people go who were part of the team that saved the money.

        • #3231635


          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Same here

          there must have been another bit of software the ‘guvamint’ wanted fixing. Target recognition would have been a possibility, au temps perdu.

          Victims of expert syndrome perhaps. Run into that a few times , Tony is an expert …., oh he can’t do anything else then ?

    • #3209447


      by ssobna ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      This forum, and I believe forums in general, suffer from participatory bias and should not be viewed as an indication of trends. Since postings on forums are generally requesting help/advise it is implicit that something is amiss from the poster’s perspective. There is also the feedback effect. When someone posts on a subject, e.g. disaffection with management, others often see the forum as a place to make similar postings. When this happens we see a trend, but the trend may be in participation, not necessarily in the subject matter.

      I’ve 33 years of industry (various industries) experience and I believe I see a general increased disaffection of all workers with all management. I attribute this to the structural changes that have occurred in the workplace. The relationship between workers and management changes over time and is affected by general economic trends. IT, in general, isn’t any better or worse.

      • #3230105

        there is another factor that may play

        by bluron ·

        In reply to Bias

        a part here. peoples attitudes have changed considerably in the past 30-40 years. we are becoming more of a “me” society. i find also people are to quick to point the finger every where else than at themselves. good post take care and enjoy.

        • #3230086

          A Perfect Description of Upper Management

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to there is another factor that may play

          I couldn’t agree more. I’ve yet to run into one of the new school of managers who have all been brought up on Accounting who think any differently. It’s all about [b]ME![/b]

          My teams never worried about what was best for them as they all believed that what was best for the company was in their best interests. I was constantly the buffer between Upper Management and my staff to protect them from the stupidity of the Upper Management or worse still the Sales Department who would look at the existing [b]Stock Levels[/b] and then decide on what to sell this week and it didn’t matter if it suited the job or not that’s what they sold to everyone till the stock levels had dropped and then moved onto something else equally unsuitable for most of the customers. This no doubt was agreed with between the Upper Management and Sales Department to move slow moving stock.

          We in the Service Section had to make these unsatisfactory units work in the wrong conditions and make them work properly.

          Have a look here and tell me how a different outcome could have been arrived at.


    • #3209395

      Is it just in IT?

      by jbartlett ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      An interesting thread – I’ve read all posts to catch the ebb and flow of the discussion.

      Are there issues with poor IT management? Sure. There are also issues with management in every field. I think IT is a little different than some fields for a few reasons:

      Many IT people do not require direct supervision. They need good leadership and direction. Good performers in other fields are the same. There is always a certian percentage of under-performers who require extensive supervision in any field, IT is no different. A poor, less experienced or un-trained manager who tries to micro-manage or doesn’t show leadership will do a bad job and the team will suffer.

      Unless you work for a company that is in the IT business, your job will always be of lower importance. IT has become a vital service or utility within most businesses, unfortunately most people who have risen to the rank of CEO don’t understand or appreciate that, they are too focussed on the cost and poor track record for IT projects in general. The CEO mindset regarding IT is frequently a few years behind. Just have look at the articles in the high-end business publications aimed at the C-suite. Now there are questioning the value of outsourcing, where the IT people in the trenches saw the weak value proposition in outsourcing loosely structured business processes years ago.

      The IT field has changed more in the last ten years than most other fields in the last 50 years. This creates a major problem for many companies because they can’t keep development of their management in step with changes in technology. Its not feasible to send the COO off to night school to learn about Internet technology and if you fast-track lower level IT supervisors to higher-level management positions (and don’t train them) you get the kind of poor managers so many here have complained about.

      Many IT managers today are caught in the crunch where their staff have expectations of higher pay and advancement and they have to satisfy senior management that doesn’t understand how IT should or could fit into the business. This is not a good environment for anyone to suceed in, no matter how good they are.

      Thast my 5/100s of the dollar.

    • #3230371

      The Modern Trend in IT Management

      by too old for it ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      is that it is neither IT (that is, manager have no IT experience) nor management (fresh out of college, promoted from the business, etc).

      Fortunately here, our are required to come up through the ranks. Then when they speak to executives, even if there is disagreement, at least it is not about the technical aspects.

    • #3230310

      What don’t I like would be easier

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Again I write my own ticket. Though I am not entirely self employed, I have my own office and it’s several thousand miles away form any management.

      All these pople bitchign about management are almost always people who can’t get ahead and blame the system. It’s no different than bums on the street who claim the system let them down.

      • #3230296

        I have to take exception with that analogy

        by jck ·

        In reply to What don’t I like would be easier

        There’s a big difference…

        The bum laying on the street is doing nothing to try to get ahead. He’s laying there taking a handout.

        The guy like me who worked 70-80 hours for months and got nothing for my extra effort actually is trying to earn a promotion. But instead, I was not even given a thank you letter from management while my project manager got a 5-figure bonus and took a vacation to a spa while me and my co-workers sat in a windowless secure building working overtime and weekends to finish the project.

        I’d like input tho: Has anyone else been in that position before? Working as a salaried employee doing sweatshop hours and getting no benefit while management is drawing huge bonuses for sitting and writing emails and taking vacations?

        I think you’ll find I’m not alone, Oz. It’s not a myth. A lot of management in this world sucks and the system promotes them for doing shoddy work.

        That’s why most people complain.

        • #3230253

          Today most upper managers aren’t technical

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to I have to take exception with that analogy

          Non-technical managers take credit for the efforts of the technical staff and they get the bonuses. When a manager makes a decision and it is a problem it is the staff’s problem because it is rare for management to change direction.

          Helping a manager (one with no IT experience or education but from a good school) does you only a world of hurt.

          If you let them make their bad decisions, then the other management claims you didn’t support the manager. If you try to do what is best for the company, the managers still want what they decided on. You still get to implement the solution they pick, and you still get labeled as a troublemaker. When you are able to implement your solution quickly and for baically hardware costs for a couple of servers (after long term other platform expensive implementations) it is assumed you should have been able to do it on another platform that doesn’t have the same capability.

          Explaining that cron in Unix and rsh and many things that are just part of the OS are better than trying to shoehorn an application into an inappropriate environment…

    • #3230297

      For you that can’t come up with one thing!

      by the old man ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Was a tech for 20 years, Mainframes, Networks, System Engineering, DBA, Front End Development, and now I?m on the other side Management sucks, but if it was easy, anyone could do it. Some days I?m better at it than others.

      A few thoughts:

      We all really only want one thing, to succeed. Success can only be determined by each of us. My definition of success is to get my kids through college, retire, and get a high pressure job being a marshal at the local muni golf course. Along the way I?d like to help my staff meet their goals.

      I?ll assume that each of you has a goal that requires you to work and that the better your organizations perform, the sooner you will meet those goals. I know, it?s not always the case, but overall that?s how it works.

      In order for individuals to be successful, our teams need to be successful

      In order for our teams to be successful, our management needs to be successful.

      In order for management to be successful, our teams and individuals need to be successful.

      In order for companies to be successful, all three need to be successful.

      At the end of the day Management is doing the best they can to balance all of the issues staff, teams, customers, senior execs, and stock holders have and help all the above groups meet their goals. Why, because he / she wants to meet his / her goals. Dangit, I?m going to retire someday! Management?s goal is not to piss everyone off and make their life miserable.

      If you don?t like something, by all means let management know, that?s their job. If they don?t listen, everyone fails and eventually everyone will be gone. But don?t just complain, make a suggestion or two. You might even ask why, might be surprised at the answer. Or even better, volunteer to work with them to come up with a solution / compromise that works for all.

      Let Management know when you do like something. Everyone likes being patted on the back, including the CEO. Negativity breeds Negativity, and vica versa.

      But, if at the end of the day, all you can do is complain, maybe it?s time to find somewhere else to pursue your goals. Some place where management is perfect, the job is perfect, and teams are perfect.

      I personally could not do that. If it?s perfect, what value do I bring to the table. The more screwed up it is, the more opportunities I have to succeed. But everyone?s different.

      • #3230237

        OK I’ve done all that on numerous occasions

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to For you that can’t come up with one thing!

        Proved in $ & Cents that a decision that was made by upper management is [b]WRONG![/b] but it still gets implemented and then I’m the one who cops it in the neck for the projected outcomes not occurring.

        A perfect example of this was at one place where I ran the Service Department when I took the job I was told [b]You are there as a Service to Our Customers We don’t expect you to make a Profit.[/b] My attitude was [b]BS[/b] if I can’t make a profit and have happy customers I’m not doing my job properly. At the end of the first full year We had made a substantial profit which was not only unexpected but previously believed to be impossible and the customers where singing our praises. End of Year 2 we had made a bigger profit an had more customers who would only speak to the service department me about replacement hardware for their needs. So I was effectively selling every piece of hardware to our existing clients and having the sales team take the credit for these sales. The finial result was that we made an even bigger profit and had far exceeded the Sales Side of the Business in terms of profitability.

        The reaction to this was to cut my staff back as they were an unnecessary expense and then I was expected to produce the same results again with fewer staff and less time to visit the customers to get things right in the first place. We broke even that year and more staff had to be laid off to improve the [b]Profit Margin[/b] so the Service Department became less productive and more expensive and we ran at a loss which nothing that I could do could prevent this from happening. The staff that I had where putting in all the extra hours unpaid just to keep the place part way running and as a result of doing this they lacked the ability to do any learning once they left the office by looking up new trends that where coming we where constantly fighting a loosing battle and falling further & further behind the competition and the customers who where happy with our work where not happy with the Company.

        The Accountants next step was to close this office as a supplier for parts and allow us to get on with our jobs and not have to worry about constantly ordering parts and this removed unnecessary paperwork from us so we could get on with our work. It also removed the need fore the Store Room Staff so that was another saving in expensive labour. This resulted in the Head Office controlling everything and when I placed an order for our personal use for one high use item I was informed that I was over ordering in an attempt to circumvent Company Policy and continue to supply dealers from this office. I pulled up our personal usage of this item for a 3 month period and could prove that we where using 80 of these in that time frame and as I had only ordered 20 I was slightly upset but the next thing made life impossible. I was told that instead of repairing these units I should be selling new machines and more importantly the company had only ordered 25 of these particular parts for all of the country when my team where using 80 every quarter with a 6 month replacement time frame from the Factory. They where to tight to air freight the required parts but where more than happy to air freight in new machines. I tried desperately to get across that we made far more money from repairing these things than in selling new ones as that was a One Off income/Profit or whatever but Service was low cost and ongoing with a [b]High Profit Margin.[/b] It got to the stage where when a new machine failed it was cheaper for us to sell another new machine to the customer than attempt to repair it as we would have it in storage for months waiting for parts to arrive and these where generally cheap disposable things that we should have had plenty of stock of. I was supposed to say to the customer OH I see that your Printer Ribbon has worn out here buy a new printer for several K instead of about $35.00 for a replacement ribbon. Naturally I wasn’t allowed to tell them where they could buy non genuine Ribbons from. Then the Upper Management wondered why they where loosing Sales.

        It was at that stage that I had finally had enough and resigned and this time I wouldn’t accept any reasoning from the CEO I was going. He got a 6 Million Bonus for loosing money that year. He left 18 months latter and retired on his Bonuses and left a complete mess for the new guy which was impossible to fix as there just wasn’t the money available to do the job part way properly.

        3 years latter that company didn’t exist but I was to blame for reducing profits by not having my department pull its weight.

        I’ve learnt that whenever an Accountant is pushed into Upper Management the company is at the beginning of dieing and it’s time to get out before you are affected by the stupidity of Company Decisions and the customers who respect you begin to lose faith in your honesty.

        [i]Edited for a typo[/i]

        • #3231653

          One (really) bad apple.

          by jbartlett ·

          In reply to OK I’ve done all that on numerous occasions

          A sad story to be sure. I’ve been through a similar situation myself. I used to work for Digital Equipment – nuff’ said. When a company can’t properly identify it costs and sources of revenue it is doomed to fail. When a company puts an accountant in the position of cost-cutting – get out before the sky falls and brings the pigs down with it.

          I think the key to culling any sense of purpose in a situation like that is to remember to try to learn, in this case, how things can be done really poorly. This sounds like a case of the CEO engineering the books to get himself a outrageous bonus at the expense of the company and the staff. The real culprits here are the members of the board who created an environment for this to happen, didn’t setup the approriate checks and balances and never looked deep enough to see if the company was truely performing well.

          A better-run company wouldn’t have been so short sighted or completely trusting of its senior management.


        • #3231509

          In this case the Parent Company

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to One (really) bad apple.

          Brought out the AU Company and put in their own Manager. He started by selling off all the company assets and renting places so instead of having a fixed income from the rent that we received from our own building locally we where paying rent. But the Figures Looked great that First Year. 😀

          The second year he cut back even further and I had a few discussions with him over what was happening all of which changed absolutely nothing. About the only people who where happy with his reorganisation where the Accountants as the [b]Books Looked Great.[/b] But I knew that things were getting bad when I walked in to work one morning and handed my resignation to the QLD Sales manager and he begged me not to quit as he had just sent in his resignation via the Fax machine to head office. He was actually reading mine while his was still going through the machine. :^0

          It makes it hard when you are told that [b]You’re the only person holding this place together at the moment I can’t afford you to leave[/b] coming from someone who had already resigned. I actually didn’t believe him when he told me that he had just Quit and Even After I read the Fax I still didn’t believe him totally. But that was the first case of an [b]Accountant Running a Company[/b] that I ever ran into and I certainly learnt a lot from that experience. When someone wants to [b]Self Destruct[/b] a profitable company which the competition is measured by it makes things impossible to continue.

          I was latter told that I got out at the right time by some of the people that I had been dealing with for years prior but it didn’t feel right and I could have done without all the aggravation and constantly battering my head against a [b]Brick Wall[/b] to try to keep the place running.

          Of course the person appointed to the State Sales Manager was in constant fear that I wanted his job which was a laugh. I’m a fairly decent Tech a passable Department Manager but certainly not a Salesperson and I’m not interested in going that way. I’ll never forget the expression on the face of the person who thought that he ran me & my department after my finial resignation he was on the phone to the CEO when he handed me the Fax telling me that I was fired and I just laughed and said [b]The Silly Bastard is Cutting off His Nose to Spite His Face. [/b] 😀

          But I still have a vivid memory of the State Sales Manager saying into the phone [b]He’s Laughing![/b] What more can you say? :0


    • #3230284

      and now the positive post.

      by the old man ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      My boss just gave me the crapiest 2 year project, right after I completed an 18 month crapy project.

      I guess she knows who can get the job done.

      What more can you ask for? Best compliment as to the value I add to the organazation!

      • #3230270

        That is a ROCKIN’ attitude!!

        by i’d rather be drumming… ·

        In reply to and now the positive post.

        it’s hard to go on indefinitely, but keep on truckin. Make sure you remind her at review time!

      • #3230044

        i would be willing to bet that the

        by bluron ·

        In reply to and now the positive post.

        reason you were stuck with these crapy projects was probably your boss felt that of all the staff, you would be the one who would succeed the best. if thats the case then yes that is a very high compliment. the idiots don’t get given the hard jobs because they will just screw it up. if it would have been me as manager, i would have offered some perk that would help, the choice with in reason would be yours. good luck and keep up the good work

        • #3212700

          I get a perk everyday

          by the old man ·

          In reply to i would be willing to bet that the

          I’m respected and I get a paycheck. Yep, I would like more, but I get paid X to work my butt off and make the ROI for my employment as high as possible.

          Long term, if the reward’s do not meet my needs, I’ll find something else.


        • #3212495

          that my friend

          by bluron ·

          In reply to I get a perk everyday

          is the heart of the matter. if both your intrinsic and extrinsic needs are met at where you work, you stay put, your happy, satisfied and maybe even on your way to being fulfilled. problem is these needs have to be as individual as the person receiving them. large corporations are not geared to work that way. i hope you keep getting what you want and need without to much agrivation.

        • #3231136

          Large Corporations

          by the old man ·

          In reply to that my friend

          I work for a Fortune 500 Company, 10,000 employees, 100 location.

          Large Corporations are built upon small teams. Each team can (and I do) try my best to match Company needs to individual needs to individual wants.

          It’s not the large corporation, it’s the low level supervisors / manager that’s the problem in this case

    • #3231735

      how about us IT Chrisitans (or so called?)

      by thomas.l.deskevich ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      If we as Christians believe in a soverign God, then all things that happen to us He allows to happen, good or bad. If that is true then all things, good or bad, especially bad, are teaching moments. I know that everyone here knows that I proclaim to be a Chrisitan. But they could care less. They want to see it. And how you react during tough situations shows what you are really made of. I am not sitting here in my ivory tower to judge anyone. Believe me, I am far from perfect.

      • #3231489

        Nice to see

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to how about us IT Chrisitans (or so called?)

        the charity work payed off over there, your asylum got a PC with internet access as well.


        Man in white coat coming …..

        • #3212675

          This thread is DEAD Jim!

          by i’d rather be drumming… ·

          In reply to Nice to see

          AKA: It’s a dead horse. Y’all have beat it TO DEATH over and over and over. Please go get a life now.


        • #3231405

          Nope it dies, when nobody posts to it.

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to This thread is DEAD Jim!

          Seeing as posting to it is my only evidence of existance outside of work.

          I thank you !

          Y’all have a good day now, heah.

      • #3231363

        I don’t get it

        by prefbid ii ·

        In reply to how about us IT Chrisitans (or so called?)

        I most certainly believe in a sovereign God. I also believe that bad things that happen in life are opportunities to learn. What you end up learning may depend in part on how you react.

        That being said, what are you suggesting is the proper course of action? Are you saying that if you find yourself in a bad employment situation that the only acceptable course of action is to stoically ride it out? Are you suggesting that looking for new employment beause you are unhappy with your current situation is somehow un-Christian like? Are you implying that somehow you are not proclaiming your belief in Christ because you decide to walk away from a bad situation?

        Sorry guy, but if you meant any of those things, then I will have to strongly disagree. Ecclesiastes 2:24 says “A man can do nothing better in this life than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too is from the hand of God.”

        • #3231356

          no I did not mean that.

          by thomas.l.deskevich ·

          In reply to I don’t get it

          I don’t think that any person should be a doormat,or a boss should treat people like a doormat. God gave you brains, reason, and a survival instinct for a reason. If another opportunity is out there, and you choose to stay at a job where you are being abused daily, I don’t think you should stay there to be some type of martyr. My point was that when we do suffer at work, can we learn from it? Can we be humble enough to think that maybe we are some or all of the problem? Does that make sense? I hope so.

        • #3231189

          Hmm, makes more sense than your last post

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to no I did not mean that.

          Admitting you are wrong when your are is a virtue, when you aren’t, it most definitely isn’t.

          Being humble and admitting the possibility is OK compared to being so arrogant that you cannot.

          Being humble and examining the possibility compared to being meek and accepting someone elses judgement is not either.

          Got to admit I tend towards arrogance myself, course this is justified by my being right.

          You’ll have to expand on attitudes that come from your religious beliefs, some of us are heathens, who won’t understand what you mean straight off.

        • #3202045

          want the bottom line?

          by thomas.l.deskevich ·

          In reply to Hmm, makes more sense than your last post

          When you become a Christain, you are to accept and embrace suffering. it is suffering that strenghtens you. but not by your power, by God’s power. that is what I strive for. and as you grow in your Christian walk, what once was so important seems like nothing. yesterday at work, the alpha employee saw a job that i had running was killing the mainframe. he came to me and said, you are killing the system D. I told him what I did, there was not negligence on my part.
          I had some planned time off in the PM to spend some time with the family, and thought, why am I so worried about what this person thinks of me? How about someone who can do nothing for me? Why don’t I care as much if I offend them? Because Jesus said whatever you do for the least of these,you do unto me. I think Frist Peter in the bible gives a good outlook on suffering and the way a true Christian should act. Read it and let me know. Too many of us Christians are not acting like Christians. At least not from what I read in the bible.

    • #3277258

      Lots of Reasons

      by rahammers ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I think one core issue is at play here…

      The maturing of the IT field

      1) Schools are pumping out admins at an amazing rate. People are going into this field strictly for a job as opposed to the love of what they are doing. For so many years people got into this field because they liked it, not just because of the job availability. This new disconnect of why one gets into IT creates job disatisfaction and causes one to lash out more at the easiest target … “the man”.

      2) The maturing of the field has changed the makeup of the manager. Some places are no longer accepting of the “IT Magic” managers want answers some valid, some not. This may cause the longer term employee (10 + years) to not feel validated by management. Management used to take our word for it but now the quantification of our work creates stress thus the lashing out. ITIL and “Root Cause Analysis” may be necessary evils but that doesn’t mean we like them. Who pushes these very valid “extras” on to the tech…management.

      I think that I could go on and on with how the field has changed and progressed making IT deliverables more meaningfull to the company. But just because the user community may be getting a better product doesn’t mean we like the way we have to deliver it.

    • #3277125

      Criticism is not necessarily negativity

      by server queen ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Simply because people see what their managers are doing wrong and comment on same, or because they comment on their frustrations with management policy, does not make those people automatically Negative Nellies. Not all criticism is invalid! Just like the rest of us, how can managers possibly improve if they never know they’re doing things wrong? The problem is, in most environments, we’re not given a safe opportunity to vent about problems and frustrations with management, and to offer valid criticisms. In many cases, such as in this thread, if you offer any kind of criticism – EVEN IF YOU OFFER SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT – you are immediately branded a complainer, a troublemaker, and “negative.”

      Don’t shoot the messengers. Listen to the message.

      • #3277009

        Excellent post

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Criticism is not necessarily negativity

        Great point, so many managers don’t understand that it isn’t being negative or complaining, it is pointing out something that could be done better or something that needs to be fixed.

    • #3282996

      Being self-employed….

      by sdgeek ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      … that’s what I like about my job.

      I made the exact same experiences others made. I have a 20-year career in the IT industry, a Master’s degree, a history of holding jobs three to seven years through the 1990s. Then in the 2000s – boom.

      In one job for a major corporation, I was given a bonus for excellent performance one week when the project ended, and literally the next week “fired” for allegedly poor performance. Half the staff was fired within a week. Makes you go hmmmm…

      Basically, in every job since that one, the message was clear: we don’t care about you as a person, we just want to work you to death for the lowest salary possible.

      And then there is the pay issue. Engineers used to be paid quite well, but today they are, on a per-hour basis, quite poorly paid. Quite honestly, why should I work 80 hour weeks for $80k/year when my girlfriend can make nearly the same as a medical assistant with a 40 hour work week and paid overtime.

      Finally, I’ve had enough and am now self-employed. Never been happier in my life, and finally I receive both the recognition and money I want from my customers, and finally have control over my life back.

      On a more positive note, I think it doesn’t have to stay this way. In the 1930s, blue collar workers were in the same position. What solved the problems for them was unionization. We as engineers should learn that lesson and do the xame thing. And I’m saying that as a business owner.

    • #3200191


      by mich2isa ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      Management has been one field that many people take for granted btu at the end of it end messing and thus the company loses it all.
      * Communication with the employees is very important
      *Being a good listener as a manager is very important
      * Motivation through promotions, end of year parties
      * Know what to say at the right time and tight place
      * Upward, downward and vertical communocation
      Basically its the manager who can either make his company fall or gain alot.

    • #2934901

      Why all the negativity?

      by kkalvar ·

      In reply to Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

      I like a lot of things about my job and company. Lots of resources, good location, good projects, but run by a lot of clueless people paid a lot of money who fail and fail and fail again to manage. Even with their PMPs.

      Yeah its not all their fault, their bosses are major failures too. Delivering value to the customer is just a buzz word. Not that failure is bad, but over, and over? I guess they think they know it all? And they don’t, or they’re too arrogant to know better.

      What do I do to make my workplace better. Everything I can. What tires me is it’s a waste of time. They just don’t get it.

      So maybe a lot of the folks have tried but tired of the cultural stupidity that seems to be IT today.

Viewing 43 reply threads