Why can’t geeks lie?

Locked

No, I am not offering an answer. I am asking a question. :p

I can’t lie when I am at work and a sales person asks me a question. If the developer team is not giving me a time frame on when something will be done, I just pass on the message. I dont lie. I cannot lie to a customer. Even be politically correct, like you have to be sometimes at work.

Can you?

]:)

Topic

Of course I can

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Ok, I lied. I can’t lie well.
;\

You had me fooled!

In reply to Of course I can

I was hanging on your every word.

Hey Neil

In reply to You had me fooled!

you going to want the maps or not?

Still waiting to hear back from you.

———————–

And when I lie about lying, I can be very convincing! 😀 After all, how do you know which lie is a lie? ;\

I replied straight back to your mail

In reply to Hey Neil

But I’ll copy the guts in here:

However, if we do go (and I seriously hope we will) then we will fly into Vegas on a Monday in October (2nd or 9th) and stay there for a few nights (it’s cheap in the week) and then drive slowly via the Hoover Dam to Williams for the Grand Canyon taking stops if needed over the following weekend. That route, at least, would be extremely welcome although it doesn’t look too far. We’ll stay in the GC area for a couple more nights and then move on. Anything from Williams to Death Valley or somewhere near would also be very welcome indeed. What we want to do is the major national parks around the Utah-Arizona-Nevada area but I guess that’s a bit vague. Well go back to Vegas to fly out.

If we can stay for three weeks then we’ll probably head for SF or somewhere close.

As I say, it’s still a bit up in the air so don’t knock yourself out, mate, but believe that it is really appreciated that you offered!

Neil 😀

The paradox of Epimenides. He said “Cretans, always liars”. He was a Cretan and so, if you follow the logic through, you can disappear up your own backside. He is also my hero.

Been having “issues” with spam filter

In reply to I replied straight back to your mail

will have to go back and look for it in the cue.

I will get this ordered.

And no, it really is nothing that I will have to knock myself out over. A very easy process, as simple as the phone call I am about to make! It then takes about a week for them to mail me my package and then I will forward it on.

JD you need to be careful of Neil

In reply to Been having “issues” with spam filter

As he’s been known to [b]Stand People Up[/b] just ask GG as she’s still out to inflict an enormous amount of [b]Pain & Suffering[/b] on Neil for doing this previously. 😀

Col ]:)

that is why

In reply to JD you need to be careful of Neil

I am sending him to the other end of the country, so he won’t be tempted to stand me up! Might be trying for some kind of record, don’tchaknow?

😀

something of interest, Neil

In reply to I replied straight back to your mail

http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nv/rhyolite.html
http://www.nps.gov/deva/pphtml/planyourvisit.html
http://www.death.valley.national-park.com/

maps and tourguide books have been ordered and I am suppose to have them in four business daze. (next Wednesday).

Great!

In reply to something of interest, Neil

The nps.gov covers every park I’ve ever heard of and every one I haven’t heard of! I suspect that planning a route is going to be real fun.

Thanks again!

Neil

The train from Williams?

In reply to I replied straight back to your mail

Are you guys taking the train from Williams to the GC? If you do, DO NOT GO COACH! Spend the extra few bucks and go either first class or upgrade to the observation dome. The coach class coaches are noisy and even in October are HOT! Much better seating in 1st class, better continental breakfast too (including champaign).

Also my suggestion … book a stay-over at the El Tovar (1 or 2 nights and can be arrainged with the train ride). It will give you some time to really experience the Canyon. I have been there many times (live in-state), and if you are really froggy about hiking, etc. book a cabin or dorm bunk down at Phantom and experience the canyon like only 1% of all visitors ever do. (I am in the rarified air group, and have spent many nights either camping or staying in a cabin/bunk at Phantom.) The hike down is easy (it is all down hill), but make sure that you have really good hiking boots as it *WILL* kill your toes (I gave up counting how many times I have lost the toenails on my big toes). The hike down (if you are really humping) is about 4 hours. the hike out ??? Usually take us about 7 hours. Most take 9 hours of almost constant hiking (well 1 hour off at Indian Gardens for lunch and a break).

Of course, you can mule it down and back …

If you need (or even want) any other sage advice, just drop me a line.

Thanks – I would gone cheapo but if the extra bucks are worth it

In reply to The train from Williams?

I’m willing to pay ’em.

As for hiking, the trip is for my Mother’s 80th birthday present (she’ll be 82) so mule-trekking is probably out as well.

😀

Nice son, you are (Yoda)

In reply to Thanks – I would gone cheapo but if the extra bucks are worth it

🙂

Just in case

In reply to I replied straight back to your mail

If you decide to drive back to Vegas and NOT go over the Hoover dam I?d stay off State Hwy. 95 if I was you.
95 is the truck route into Vegas. Unless it?s been upgraded within the last 4 years it?s two-lane, black-top. Hwy. 95 is a dangerous road known for fatalities. After 9/11 big-rigs aren?t allowed over the dam so truck traffic is way up. All trucks going to Vegas from the east take 95. Trucks leaving Vegas to points south and east run 95 too.

Don’t need to hear that you kinked your fern when over here.

Staying on topic

In reply to Just in case

What did any of this have to do with “Why can’t geeks lie?” Is it that they don’t lie because they can’t stay on topic?

This is also a community…

In reply to Staying on topic

There are some folks here that actually communicate with each other and have respectful interaction.

Hang around for a bit and get to know them. You might find it a good neighborhood to visit and try to make friends.

Lie?

In reply to Of course I can

In the world of business we don’t ‘LIE’, perhaps to a geek it is considered a lie, but not in business. Deception, smoke and mirrors, covering up, whatever closes the deal or gets the job done, but it isn’t considered a lie.

I don’t lie to customers and I don’t make excuses for others, but there are more tactful ways of handling most situations. I suppose that’s why geeks are geeks and businessmen are businessmen.

Example, today a customer asked if I could get product from Kentucky, to Toronto and then Japan in X days. Logistically I can, realistically I can’t. On paper it all works, but when you figure time zones, brokerage issues, and the fact that freight companies are completely clueless and incapable, it most likely won’t happen.

Did I tell the customer I could? Of course not, did I tell him I coudln’t? Of course not.

He still happy, I still got the order and I will guess the shipment wil be late or delayed but that’s okay, it’ll get there.

Did I lie? Nope, not a word. Did I sell the customer anyway? Yup, PO in hand.

businessmen and politicians…fine line, really fine line.

Um… really?

In reply to Lie?

So you are saying that the difference between what you did to your client and “lying” is in selectively choosing the definition of logistics?

The definitions that I have been familiar with are, for instance, [OED] pertaining to the [b]art[/b] of moving troops or equipment; [dictionary.com] [b]skilled[/b] in calculating; and others like that.

To me, art and skill have always indicated doing it right, not misrepresenting reality or realistic expectations.

I don’t mind you not wanting to think of what you did to your client as lying, just don’t expect us to view it as anything short of a very dark shade of grey.

By the way, does the PO specify delivery within the originally requested time frame?

Oh, get over yourself!

In reply to Um… really?

What a self righteous and completely incorrect post!

It has nothing to do with the definition of logistics, that’s something a typical geek would deduce.

When it comes to issues such as that, everyone promises they will in turn do their job on time, the REALITY is the chance of that actually happening is ridiculously low.

When you cross multiple couriers, multiple brokerage stops everyone claims they will process in a certain time frame, in this case it would be tight so if there’s any delay along the line from any one company, the delivery is late.

So again, maybe this time you’ll get it, on paper (and from what people promise thay can do) it will work. The chance of it all coming together is slim though, I just know that from experience.
I did NOT tell my customer it would be there on the requested date, I did express my doubts even, but I still got the PO. No it doesn’t have an expected delivery date. I pretty much get blank PO’s and I fill in the price.

It’s called sales, not dark grey area, not lying just being a salesman.

It’s like GWB, he blatantly lied about INtelligence reports from Iraq in order to build support for his war, in most people’s eyes. But when you REALLY look at it, HE didn’t lie as much as he simply implied as much, without actually saying anything. He made people FEEL confident in his decision even though he wasn’t assured himself. bt he didn’t actually lie to anyone.

Oh, don’t sell yourself short!

In reply to Oh, get over yourself!

Please re-read your original post. You [b]said[/b] that you didn’t tell the client that it wouldn’t get there on time. You [b]didn’t[/b] say that you told the client you doubted it would get there on time. You didn’t say if the client had an understanding of the industry and would already know that it might be impossible to get it there in the time requested.

If you were trolling by leaving out relevant detail then you succeeded 🙂 If not, then be aware of your audience and the context in which you are speaking ;\.

If you left the client with the belief that you had a reasonable doubt of it getting there on time and you made your best effort to get it in the stream so as not to be a cause of delay then you didn’t lie. So there. :p

Now, as far as me acting like a typical geek, did you read the subject of the thread? 😀

And let’s try not to mention gwb. We’ll end up with maxwell hammering more politics in this thread too… 🙁

I didn’t

In reply to Oh, don’t sell yourself short!

“Please re-read your (my) original post”

[b]Did I tell the customer I could? Of course not, did I tell him I coudln’t? Of course not.[/b]

the point is, I answered him withotu giving him an answer. As long as you remove his question from teh conversation you will win. In sales, the trick is to learn how to rebut objections, most of the time it is with a sgue and you don’t even have to address the question itself.

So NO, I didn’t tell him I could, I didn’t tell him I couldn’t. I just told him about freight and brkerage companies, that was enough of a segue to have him ask about something else instead. Now if the shipment doesn’t arrive on time, he will know all about the logistical issues involved and will be easy to deal with, if I have to deal with him at all.

Yes I know what the title is, that’s why I called you a typical geek, it wasn’t meant to be an offensive slam just a realization and a GREAT difference between the two mindsets/skills. And yes, I was once a geek too, worked as a net admin fr a large company, broke out on my own and worked for several comanies then decided I wanted more money and fewer computer issues to deal with.

I still make good side cash as a graphic designer, web designer and search engine optimization pays excellent along with monthly residuals. I am also a mechanic though so I am a grease monkey/geek/artist manager/promoter….the list goes on because I tire and bore easily.

And modest too ;)

In reply to I didn’t

You remind me of something a guy I knew once used to say:

“Blow your own horn. You can be fairly certain that nobody else will blow it for you.”

You are demonstrating great comprehension skills

In reply to I didn’t

You seemed to be under the impression that I wasn’t in the IT field and was poking fun of geeks. I was merely trying to explain that I had been in IT and was also considered a geek myself.

When I have done so in the past, people have said “But you said you were a mechanic, or didn’t you say you managed and promoted bands.?’

So to be clear, I am not a master of one trade I am a jack of all trades but master of none. Well I do have an MCNE (had to for work) and I am licenced as a mechanic but I am not solely focused on one occupation as a career, I have sevral irons in the fire and many interests to keep me from boredom.

That’s a simple explanation because it has been brought up many times, I find that instead of reiterating my comments all the time, it’s easier to explain up front, well, most of the time anyway.

Now OZ as one Shrink said to me ;\

In reply to I didn’t

You can’t hold down a steady job even though I’d ben working in the same industry for over 20 years just not at the same compamy. :^0

They couldn’t understand why I would leave a perfectly good job at one copmpany and move to another which offered better pay & conditions so according to this poorly traind shrink I wasn’t capable of keeping a job for a [b]Long Term.[/b] Silly Basdterd he was too he didn’t last more than 6 months where hewas but I at least always kept a job for about 3 years and then started getting Ichy Feet. 😀

Mainly because what was once considered as challeging had become booring. But that’s life and we all do the best that we can. :p

Col ]:)

“Ichy Feet”

In reply to I didn’t

I’m sure there’s a cream for that somewhere… :p

Geek or Salesman

In reply to Oh, get over yourself!

So you are not a geek, you are a salesman.

Salesmen don’t lie they just stretch the truth. That car will get up to 30 miles a gallon, when it really only gets 15 (but 15 is up to 30).

But it will!! ;)

In reply to Geek or Salesman

… get 30 mpg on your way to work with the wind behind you and a constant downhill grade. Coming back, however, … 😀

Oh, yes indeedy!

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Can I ever?

I have absolutely no problems whatsoever in spinning as tall a tale as you could ever wish for ranging from minor practical joke wind-ups to a fully fledged out-and-out whopper to save my nuts from a roasting.

Am I proud of that fact? Well of course I’m not! I’m racked with guilt for every departure – however slight – from the pure Truth.

😀

BS Neil :p

In reply to Oh, yes indeedy!

No way are you [b]Racked With Guilt![/b] You like the rest of us are laughing all the way home and then much longer. some of the best jokes that I’ve pulled have had people in stiches for days if not weeks. :^0

Then there are the [b]Not Funny[/b] ones like one of the staff acidently dropped a Z 80 chip onto his seat and sat on it My imediate reaction was to tell people to [b]Hold him down[/b] while we completed the circuit and then we could sent him out as a completed Circuit Board. Funny at the time and he laughed and took his mind off the pain so we could get him to hospital and get it removed. [b]Not Nice at All That One[/b] but I had everyone in fits of laughter when I told the Quack to be [b]Very Careful[/b] when he removed the Z 80 as I wanted to use it again! ;\

There is a massive difference between a [b]Pratical Joke[/b] and a Direct Lie when I chased the apprentence out of a building with a 22 inch number 1 Phillips head screwdriver I really ment it when I told my boss that I was going to kill him by nailing him to a wall with the screwdriver with his feet at least 12 inches off the ground. They wouldn’t let me kill him off but at least they moved him away from me. 😀

Col ]:)

I don’t lie at work

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

And frankly I’m not cut out for it.

I don’t always share all the information I know. But I don’t tell falsehoods. It comes back to haunt people who do.

Now you know why my career in sales was short….

James

3 months

In reply to I don’t lie at work

I quit my sales job in 3 months. 😀

I wasnt saying lying as in outright lying, but being politically correct or deviating from the truth until the job is done or offering excuses.

I just cannot do that. Furthest I go is that instead of giving a time frame I say, fairly soon. But I just cannot lie.

]:)

I did sales a long time ago

In reply to 3 months

And did pretty good, as long as I believed in the product.

After my faith was shaken in the product, I was toast.

Same here

In reply to I did sales a long time ago

I was selling teaching aid softwares to schools. And I knew about the bugs. I just couldn’t avoid talking about the damned bugs. If customers didnt ask, I would go ahead and enlighten them.

Which is why I am worse when it comes to “hiding the truth” :p

]:)

Thank you!

In reply to Same here

At one point in my career With the Dade County School board I was responsible for guidiing purchaases in a school site. All to often Technology venders would not tell us about known bugs or would outright lie to me as to its disgustingly pure performane (can you say *&%^ crashed again!)on a microsoft network or gee, this only works in DOS mode! I am gald somebody was willing to be honest.
I think that some vendors just want the one sale and forget about upgrades and new versions

Sales….

In reply to 3 months

I was a sales person for a well known software company for 18 months, and I sold computers in a Mac Dealership for a year. I moved from there to consulting – I sold computers, set up systems, provided support, training, whatever. I was much more comfortable in the latter role.

I lost a networking sale when I stuck to the best “technical” solution instead of giving them what they wanted. I am 100% positive that they threw out token ring in favour of ethernet a few years after they made that choice.

I also tended to look longer term than most. I sold better quality systems that would be ok to grow, because few companies stand still. That worked for me as a consultant, more than a sales guy.

I tend to undercommit on projects – build in some contingency for things to go wrong or interruptions etc. When I was doing desktop publishing for a living , I would double my estimates and be dead on, because I could count on the fact the customer never gave me enough information up front, and changed their mind in the middle.

James

speaking as a geek….

In reply to Sales….

isn’tfactoring unknowns called “the Scotty factor?”

Lying and technical support

In reply to I don’t lie at work

I ended up becoming the customer of my former employer. One day, I had to call into the customer support department with a question. Now I had, at one time, been second-tier support for that support team. The tech who answered the phone was obviously a newby and my question was quite advanced. Instead of just telling me that he would have to research, he attempted to give me some off-the-wall explanation that had absolutely no relation to the software I was asking about. He was attempting to get rid of me by lying, badly.

That newby ended up getting a valuable lesson is customer support by the end of the call. NEVER ATTEMPT TO SNOW THE CUSTOMER BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHO WILL END UP ON THE OTHER OF THE LINE! I don’t think he lasted long. He must have gone into sales. 🙂

now that’s a familiar tune…

In reply to Lying and technical support

a close friend and collegue used to work for a local ISP. He set up their helpdesk and designed their procedures.
Shortly after he left the company, he was visiting with a friend whom he’d sold on the ISP. They were have problems connecting (this was back when dialup was king) so my friend called said ISP.
The recepient of the support call started going the the play book, asking all of the standard questions. What he failed to do was listen when my friend said “I know the settings on this end are correct, is there something up with your servers?”
Finally, my friends patience evaporated and he started answering the tech’s questions BEFORE he asked them, at which point said tech intoned “umm, I think you need to reinstall Windows.”
My friend said “Really? Well befor I do that, why don’t you GET OFF YOUR BUTT, STAND, TURN RIGHT, WALK THREE PACES, TURN LEFT AND ASK JIM IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE SERVER!?!?!?”
To his credit, the tech did so, and returned tt the phone shortly thereafter.
“Umm,” quoth he. “jim says that yes there is a problem and they’re working on it. And he also says next time you have this type of problem sir to call him directly. Umm sir? Are you THE Mike?”

Reinstall Windows!?!?!?!

In reply to now that’s a familiar tune…

No wonder tech support gets such a bad name! How many people have followed this instruction because they didn’t know better?

Unfortuately, companies that have support departments are usually short staffed and throw people to the wolves before they are trained properly. Also, training appears to be secondary to putting bodies into the chairs.

Short staffed?

In reply to Reinstall Windows!?!?!?!

How about “not understood”?

The one thing that will kill a good tech support team is a bean counter with some authority.

NO kidding

In reply to Short staffed?

How many bonuses are paid because managers save money instead of making their support team better?

How many times has training been delayed because of short staffing?

How many tech support staff burn out?

In the accounting world, tech support considered a cost centre, therefore an area where money can be saved. Some companies do treat this department with some respect but definitely not the majority.

throw people to the wolves

In reply to Reinstall Windows!?!?!?!

I once worked in one of those electronic sweatshops. After training they had me taking calls even thought my loging weren’t setup correctly so I couldn’t even fully access the knowledge base I was supposed to use to do my job.

Every day I would come in and complain about my logins, and every day the would harass me about my call volume (instead of patting me on the back for getting that much work done without the proper tools).

It was a 3rd party support desk that, I found out, was paid by the call. They didn’t really want us to work with the customer untill the problem was fixed. We were supposed to work with them X number fo minutes, then give them something to do offline, and they could call back if that didn’t fix things.

I didn’t last there long.

Now whenever I am online with a helpdesk and we get to the “Reload the software” point I want to ask them “Is this call taking too long, or have we just gotten to the end of your diagnosis script?”

Waaaaaaaaaa!

In reply to throw people to the wolves

When you’re the boss, you can run things the way you want.

I’m glad to have had a similar job, and the opportunity to see how things are done, even if the quality of service is less than I would like.

You aren’t a slave. You’re free to leave.

What are you crying about.

In reply to Waaaaaaaaaa!

I left, and that company soon lost their contract to provide service for that computer company.

A support desk’s job is to give support. If it does anything else it is being fraudulent.

This ties into out topic of geeks and honesty by the way.

A help desk should never tell the caller to do anything catastrophic to their system if there is an alturnative.

There is a big difference between just telling a user to reload their software (which if doesn’t not always fix their problem) and saying “At this point I can talk you through reloading your software to see if that will resolve the problem, or I can forward your problem to Level 2 support.”

No, I can’t but then

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

that goes for all aspects of my life. I agree with JamesRL I may not share all the information I know or I may say that I’m not prepared to answer this yet, or I’ll have to get back to you on this. If one lies then they usually have to lie to cover that one or at least have to remember the lie so not to get tripped up later. A lie will come back and bite you in the butt. It’s not worth it, especially it’s not worth tarnishing your own integrity.

I am worse

In reply to No, I can’t but then

I think aloud. If someone asks me why a particular thing is not working, I start thinking aloud about possible explanations and the sales person keeps interrupting me because he keeps ticking off my thoughts as not being relevant or necessary.

I have to learn to stop doing that. 😀

]:)

Are you going to try to say

In reply to I am worse

that a WOMAN could possibly have a hard time keeping her mouth shut? :0 ;\

😡

Like GG would say

In reply to Are you going to try to say

Sometimes keeping mouths shut is not such a good idea ;\

]:)

u need to be trained

In reply to Like GG would say

to lie effectively .

* look straight into the eye
* believe it is the truth you are speaking
* don’t think of the consequences
* keep your voice – tone/pitch as it is.
* and, remember the lie for eternity ( notice : not plural )

disclaimer : not recommended for star gazzers, n secure facilities like nuclear installation, and so forth.

u need to be trained

In reply to Like GG would say

to lie effectively .

* look straight into the eye
* believe it is the truth you are speaking
* don’t think of the consequences
* keep your voice – tone/pitch as it is.
* and, remember the lie for eternity ( notice : not plural )

disclaimer : not recommended for star gazzers, n secure facilities like nuclear installation, and so forth.

>:)

Yes I can see it now

In reply to u need to be trained

That [b]Core Breach[/b] was a minor inconvenience that will be put right shortly. :^0

Or the [b]Opperation was a complete success unfortantly the patient died on the table before we managed to open them up.[/b] 😀

Or this is a [b]Minor Computer Bug that will only cause Minor Inconvenience[/b] when actually the entire power grid has been shut down and will remain down for several days till everything can be brought back on line. ?:|

Col ]:)

SG you’ve got it easy!

In reply to I am worse

[b]SHMBO[/b] gets driven crazy by my answers to her questions as she knows that I’m not telling her the exact truth she just not quite sure which part is an embelishment and which is real. Example [i]You left here at 6.00 AM and said that you wouldn’t be long and it’s now 8.30 PM and you’re just arriving home why didn’t you phone me telling me what was happening.” My Reply “Well I was having so much fun with my girlfriend from such & such a company that I just lost track of time and didn’t realise how late it was till it got dark and by then the phones had been switched off and I was out of a Recption area.”[/i] She know that the full truth is that I had a mongeral of a job and forgot about everything except what I was working on. This suits her when it’s something that she wants me to do but it doesn’t work the other way. :_|

Or the best one so far I did some work on my Ducati and took it for a short test drive which resulted in me not taking any money or a Mobile Phone or anything else at all with me and I had to call her from a Service Station 100 miles away and tell her to drive up in the car and bring some money with her for petrol and this phone call. That one made her [b]Very Happy![/b] :^0

The best thing though is as a Tech I sell more of the better Hardware than I could even hope to as a Salesperson I just tell them what they need and why it’s better and people accept this without question. It used to drive the Sales Staff crazy when I put through sales that they would never have considered for a company and I did it in a few minutes while they would have spent hours with a lower end product. :p

Col ]:)

Maybe our memory is less volitile?

In reply to No, I can’t but then

A lot of people I know love the phrase “I don’t remember saying that” and treat it like that really is an answer. Worse yet, once I was accused of lying but the guy that accused me couldn’t have cared less if I was lying or not. It seemed like lying was just a normal part of life for him. I have met many people like him too (except the others weren’t accusing me of lying).

Well since

In reply to Maybe our memory is less volitile?

the memory is one of the first things to go, like where I’m at now, sometimes it’s good to be able to not remember something. 🙂 That’s also another good reason to always tell the truth–you might not remember the lie you told.

See there are some perks to getting old. :^0

It’s the base nature of our work.

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Think about it – everything we do in the IT field is based on a simple statement: “s it 1 or 0 ? On of Off ? True or False?” We start in a Binary world, and build on that.

We know what a “true” or “correct” statement or input does to a program, and what a “false” or “incorrect” statement or input does.

So, from the very base atomic level, we understand true and false. We just apply that to a larger picture when we talk to other humans.

That, and some of us jest really can’t pull of a good lie without getting caught.

:^0

In reply to It’s the base nature of our work.

Nice one mickster. Of course, I wont tell you that I cant pull off a good lie. 😉

]:)

Depends also on your definitions…

In reply to :^0

Don’t get me wrong- I can omit facts with the best of them. I can also give just enough information so that the other person might jump to the wrong conclusion.

It’s just outright falsehoods that I’m not very good at.

BUT… I do play poker very, very well.

Me too

In reply to Depends also on your definitions…

It isnt falsehoods. That’s unethical. But I cant even omit facts. I tell sales people exactly why something is not working even if most of the technical jargon I say goes over their heads. 😀

I know, I know. Nothing to boast about.

]:)

Oddly enough…

In reply to Me too

This is probably the crux of the issue from one of the points from the thread on “Techs should be nicer to end users”.

Sometimes the answer just isn’t simple and you know you would be lying to make it sound like it is. Unfortunately, the person you are explaining it to might just think you are lying anyway and just covering it up in techno-babble.

I don’t know if I am…

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

…a geek. But, I am one of those folks, who do not hesitate to give the bad news (read [b]truth[/b]). I want the stakeholders, managers and the technical team to be aware of the exact status of the project. No point in deceiving. It helps being a contractor.

I can be politically correct 🙂 I guess that is part of the personality 🙂

ps:
And I always hated the spin that I find on different brochures of software vendors.

Oh, but that wasn’t “spin” ;\

In reply to I don’t know if I am…

That was Marketecture 🙂

I hate it still :-)

In reply to Oh, but that wasn’t “spin” ;\

🙂

The cold hard truth

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

…is so much more fun!

Usually I get a

In reply to The cold hard truth

Awwww Come on …

]:)

That is why…

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

IT people don’t usually do well in the sales department.

ofcourse geeks lie

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

If they dont the entire Open source bandwagon would have collapsed long time back

OK, you have officially lost me

In reply to ofcourse geeks lie

So I have to say what I really want to.

[b]Huh ?? [/b]

]:)

EXACTLY :)

In reply to OK, you have officially lost me

[b]Microsoft Sucks[/b] so how the [b]Hell[/b] can you expect our software to work properly on an OS that doesn’t? :p

Col ]:)

Trolling or interesting drugs?

In reply to ofcourse geeks lie

The statement sounds like a quick troll jibe. Is that what you are after? Otherwise, the syntax and logic errors make it look more like a bad mix of recreational drugs ;\

“hopefulcoder” kinda sounds like “geek-wannabe”

I have been a hopeful coder plenty

In reply to Trolling or interesting drugs?

…generally for that split second between starting to compile and getting a screen full of errors.

I can lie

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I was raised by a pathelogical liar. Not only can I lie, but I can spot a lie pretty easily. (Something children of pathelogical liars learn at an early age..self preservation dictates that you learn the skill).

However, even though I can lie, I don’t very often. Especially at work. I’d rather tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. On the occasion that I do bend the truth to my advantage, I don’t feel guilty about it. Again, it doesn’t happen often, but anyone who says they never lie..well..you know.

Never say Never

In reply to I can lie

I do lie but cant when I actually want to bend the truth.

]:)

how far can we bend before we say we broke it

In reply to Never say Never

a typical example

Mother : Did you attend the lectcure ?
Son : Yes
( Untold Story )
Son : For 5mins, after which i left for xyz.

Son did bend the truth, but did he break it is the question ?

In that case, yes he pretty much he broke it

In reply to how far can we bend before we say we broke it

[b]Attend[/b] has the common implecation of being there for a significant duration so as to gain the presented information. Shame on him!

Now, had he said “I got there right on time.”… ;\

I think the reason makes a difference as well

In reply to I can lie

I can understand when telling the truth will hurt you or someone you care about, but some people tell lies that don’t do ANYTHING for anyone.

If it would help my boys, I would tell you the moon has been sold to China, and would never lose a seconds sleep over it.

If telling the truth would help my ex in anyway, shape, or form, I think i would have to claim the fifth! B-)

Ok, if you put it that way

In reply to I think the reason makes a difference as well

then yes I can lie in a heart beat. If it protects my family from harm.
Thankfully I’m not in the same position as you with your ex but I certainly can understand that! 🙂

another reason

In reply to I think the reason makes a difference as well

is to spare feelings. I HATE it when people claim they are ‘just being honest’ when the truth is, they are being cruel. so, not only do they get to be hateful, they set themselves up as virtuous at the same time… for example, if a friend has a baby and the kid looks like a monkey, would you tell them that? No. You’d say how adorable it is, then try to give it a banana…

That is too funny

In reply to another reason

Unfortunately you are right about people like that. However, I don’t have much time for sanctimonious people and will not listen–it’s also good to be somewhat hard of hearing (it’s not all selective hearing).

So far, I’ve been able to dance around statements like that. It’s kind of like when one of the ladies around here asks how I like their new haircut. If I think it stinks I usually come back with, well, as long as you like then that’s cool. Most of the time I get away with it.

Have you forgotten the power of the question?

In reply to That is too funny

You don’t have to say the baby or the haircut looks good!

Haven’t you heard people when they see a new baby and they say “Isn’t he cute?”

Don’t think that is a statement of opinion! It is the sneakiest way out! 🙂 It is still a question and the asker might really mean “Do you think he is cute? Because I certainly don’t!” ;\

In the eye of the beholder

In reply to Have you forgotten the power of the question?

is a stick.

(had to beat Mae to that one!) 😀

Not bad..

In reply to In the eye of the beholder

And really, when ISN’T a sharp stick in the eye funny?

When it is your eye…

In reply to In the eye of the beholder

it wouldn’t be all that funny.

daveo

In reply to In the eye of the beholder

goes without saying..

What do you mean “I hurt your feelings?”

In reply to another reason

“I didn’t know you HAD any feelings!” – Dave Mustaine

If the truth serves no purpose other than to be hurtful, keep it to yourself. Unless it is to my EX , and then you should get it off your chest. It isn’t good to keep things locked inside, dontchaknow? ;\

The classic was when I discussed the whorishlittle wench parading multiple guys in front of my boys. I pointed out my concern for the quality of guys that would be interested in her, [b] “what kind of guy will be attracted to a MIDDLE aged, unemployed, single-mother of two that lives with HER mother”?[/b]

The look on her face was golden, but as they say, “the truth hurts”, and some SHOULD! X-(

B-)

I’m not disagreeing with that..

In reply to What do you mean “I hurt your feelings?”

and by the way..I DO have feelings. I’m feeling very much like leaving work and having a drink or two.

What I’m saying, is I hate it when people use honesty as a disguise for cruelty. There is a big fat line between being honest and being a d*ck. Not that I have a problem with people being a d*ck, but it should be called what it is.

My husband’s grandfather passed away a year ago and at the calling hours, I heard over and over, “doesn’t he look good”. and I’m thinking, not so much, he looks rubbery, sunken in and dead. But I did’t say it. That would have been cruel, even though it was my honest opinion..

Well in that case Mae

In reply to I’m not disagreeing with that..

Never ask me about any new born anything!

To me they all look terrible so I constantly to save hurt feelings use a Quote from Peanuts [b]”I’ll come back in a week or so when their eyes are open and answer that question.”[/b] Thank God for Snoopy. 😀

Col ]:)

one of my employees

In reply to Well in that case Mae

says all new borns look like Winston Churchill.

Sometimes the innocent truth reaction can be entertaining…

In reply to I think the reason makes a difference as well

JD, you should like this:

A while before my divorce we were having an argument and she threw a phone book down in front of me and said “Why don’t you just call a lawyer right now?!?!?”

I reacted like a true geek and gave the factual data answer without thinking of the deeper potential meaning:

I replied “It’s Sunday, they won’t be open.”

gee, was that..

In reply to Sometimes the innocent truth reaction can be entertaining…

the wrong answer? It sounds totally ‘normal’ to me 🙂

Excellent

In reply to Sometimes the innocent truth reaction can be entertaining…

hope yours turned out as well as mine did, although to be honest I have seen very few turn out as grand as mine did!

I do hope you got the proper facial response from her…… 😀

And how offended do you get of being accused of lying?

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I have found that on the few occasions that I have been accused of lying I get extremely defensive, moreso than most non-geek-types that I know.

Any thoughts on that angle?

I havent been accused at work

In reply to And how offended do you get of being accused of lying?

They accuse me more of trying to be smart :p

But yeah, if someone does accuse me I get super defensive.

]:)

Unfortunately

In reply to I havent been accused at work

Being very defensive usually makes the accusor even more convinced that you’re lying. “The lady doth protest too much”

Of course being to nonchalant about an accusation can have the same affect.

P.S. Shakespeare geeks – no need to correct the above quote. I’m just makin’ a point.

Don’t worry…

In reply to Unfortunately

We won’t call you a liar for exercising poetic license. 😉

The quote

In reply to Unfortunately

is OK, if not quite finished. Hamlet: Act II, Scene 2, said by Queen Gertrude. Personally, I reckon you checked it before you quoted it…

:p

Thank you. (Shakespeare Geek)

In reply to The quote

Naw, I just pulled the quote from the back of my 9th grade memory files. Difficult to properly reconstruct it following the corruption as it was sent through the hormone filters. But the good part is the Debbie LeBlanc memories were in the same packet. hmmmmmm.

:p

Depends on the Situation

In reply to And how offended do you get of being accused of lying?

In one instance there was a furious Doc who accused me of restarting his computer on him when I came up to service it and the resulting restart lost him several days worth of research writing. I had to remind him that I never got into his office as he had to unlock the door for me to get in and I never actually, in his full field of site, touched the computer yet. He then stated that I must have done it by remote, since, “IT guys can do that.” I was more amused then upset and the same Doc has blown his credibility with the whole IT department since then. Its something we laugh about.
But then, I spent two months with a new employ that was hired for his 10 years of experience in hardware and Bachelors degree. Once cut loose he floundered and botched several jobs. His automatic response to his supervisor was to say that I had never trained him or shown him how to do what he was tasked with. After several of these occurences, I was in a subpostal behavior mode and made it a point to never be in the same room with him alone for more then a month. My saving grace was his notebook in which I had insisted he keep and fill out daily. I was able to have him open it for both our supervisors and show the notes that he had, “forgotten,” he had taken when I was training him. Its now a year and half later and though I had proven that I had trained him, and he has demonstrated to the rest of the staff that he works best when only tasked with one repetative, well documented function at a time, I still have a rep for not being able to get along with the new guys.

Being the “GO TO” guy

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

It’s not that you have the answers, but that your
opinion matters. We call it a TEAM. No one
idea gets applied unless all get to make their
own suggestions and or approval of someone elses
ideas. Large amounts of experience can be called
upon in just simple conference calls and e-mails.

I can’t lie well either

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I can obfuscate, meander around the truth, qualify answers, hedge, ramble without answering and remain silent. But lie? Nope. Just not smart enough to remember all the details needed to keep my ass covered.

Plus, it’s wrong to do.

Anyone else?….

In reply to I can’t lie well either

have the issue of laughing when being wrongly accused of something, only to appear guilty?

It used to happen to me all the time as a teenager and it drove my Mom nuts!! 😀

Not so much that..

In reply to Anyone else?….

but my ex husband and our teenaged son CANNOT tell a lie without smiling. It is sooo easy to tell when they are being less than honest.

That too….

In reply to Not so much that..

I almost always smile our flat out laugh when try to pull the wool over anyones eyes. 😀

Oh well, it keeps me honest. Well, actually my wife does that!! 😀

I have a hard time keeping a straight face when scolding…

In reply to Anyone else?….

Putting aside the problem of smiling when somebody thinks I am not being honest (I think it is because I find it amusing that somebody would think that)…

When I scold my kids (single digit ages) I often have to walk away before I break up laughing.

Oh, man…

In reply to I have a hard time keeping a straight face when scolding…

Hollering at my oldest daughter because she gave her little sister a wedgie. It’s not too effective. Especially when the younger one yells “It’s all the way up!!” and I lose it. I think that’s why the wedgie is the torture of choice in my house. The repercussions are minimal.

LMAO

In reply to Oh, man…

That one would be difficult to punish (especially with the running commentary).
Luckily we just have a 3 yr old girl right now and no siblings to torture. 😀

I see this from the younger one’s perspective

In reply to LMAO

Even tho I can’t really punish the older one, I sympathize with the baby (10 yrs old).

I have a clear memory, through tears, of one older brother hanging me on a doorknob by my shorts, while another has me in his sights with a large rubber band in case I tried to escape.

I could go on with stories like this all day, but it’s too painful to relive. Funny, but painful.

No need to…

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

oh course that’s why I’m usually the bad guy (don’t ask him -He’ll tell you!) I’ve never told people what they wanted to hear, I tell people what they need to hear. It makes me very unpopular at times, but it has served well (both for me & and others) -d

Lie? No…

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I tell it like it is. This tends to help the middle management understand the full picture while this angers those that are any higher up than that.

Remember, even if you provide a solution to the problem, it’s still complaining!

I dont see that as a negative SG,

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

The world needs more honest people. The liar IMO was born out of the needs of people who can?t handle the truth. Honest people don?t suffer from this affliction. The truth hurts, yes but not as much as it would if you spent your time avoiding it.

As for me, do I lie? I can stretch the truth when I have to but I don?t like lying. I only “adjust the facts” (Pretty word for lying) for those who have no interest in the truth (I generally try to avoid these people, they bring me nothing but trouble). I prefer people to be straight up with me and so I prefer to be straight up with others.

As for the question of weather geeks can lie, they can but they are the lowest form of geek (Spammers, virus makers, crackers) people who need to make up for their complete lack of skill.

I think it?s good that you are not a liar, we need more SG?s and fewer lawyers/politicians (aren?t lawyers the larval stage of pollies anyway).

Flattered, I am sure

In reply to I dont see that as a negative SG,

but outright honesty sometimes loses us customers. Thats not so good, is it?

]:)

Lionel Hutz style

In reply to Flattered, I am sure

there’s the truth (shakes head) and the truth (nods and smiles). For some reason this keeps popping up in my head but then again my head is a weird place. 🙂

Loosing customers is not good but I dont think you need to lie to a customer to keep them. When I have to deal with an external client I try to relate to them (even if only on a superficial level). This way I can find out what a customer wants and why the customer wants a product then I can sell the good points (Some people I’ve met actualy want to know flaws but these people are few and far between). Providing someone with a good sales experience is more important than what you actualy say.

I strongly disagree

In reply to I dont see that as a negative SG,

I see that the lie comes from many different motives. The world – and people – are much, much more varied and complex than you seem to credit. I like to treat each person as an individual.

Yes, there are those who lie because they can’t handle the truth but these usually lie to themselves. I would class most religions in this category but that’s another story.

There are those who lie – and I know because I place myself in this category – because [b]others[/b] cannot handle the truth. I do believe that the old saying “where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise” is just so true. We’ve all swallowed the Father christmas and Tooth Fairy stories and they are just lies! Bastards! We lie to our children.

We carry on lying to our children. We teach them a little history. When they get older we revisit the subject and expand – “well, what we told you before isn’t [b]strictly[/b] true” – the real story is…(more lies) If they get to college and study history they may well get a little closer to the truth. And then again, maybe not.

The whole world is built upon lies – “cigarettes don’t cause cancer” is quite an amusing one. I won’t get into institutional propaganda about “the war on terrorism” or “global warming” as it’s pretty obvious what point I’m making.

I could go on but I won’t.

I lied. I will…

One of the most aggravating people that I ever knew was a salesman colleague – and once friend – who became a born again Christian and from that point never “lied” again. (I put lied into commas to make the point that the definition of a complex lie is personal and open to much debate).

At this point in his life he became – to an outside observer – an immensely self-satisfied and smug individual who would never hold back from “the truth” regardless of the recipients need or desire for this information. He was only saved from mutilation at my – and other – hands by the fact that he was fired.

I’m quite an empathic person so if lying will make someone feel better – and, YES, I do weigh up the long as well as the short-term consequences – I’ll do it.

Edit because…I’m not going to tell you!

True, I should have been more specific

In reply to I strongly disagree

I suppose I was talking about bald faced and compulsive liars (the worst kind in my opinion). Also I was talking about the people who react (extremely) badly when confronted with a truth they don?t like (I think Maxwell on global warming is a good example).

I do believe in compassionate conspiracies although sometimes they don?t sit right with me even when I agree with the principal. Like I said I like to be straight up with people and I like people to be straight up with me.

I try to avoid lying when I can. When I can?t tell the truth I avoid it, when I can?t avoid it I avoid them and if I can?t to do that I’ll give them the shortest lie possible. It’s alway’s better to give not enough information than too much information.

I have no idea

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

if I can lie or not, I don’t see any purpose in trying it.

Most of the time I don’t even bother with tact, blunt truth works fine.

Laziness & Common Sense

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I lie to my “not to tech savvy” clients because I am too lazy to translate everything into lamens terms. They ask, “What did you have to do?” or “Why can’t I do that?” etc… It takes too long, and they still don’t understand half of what you have just explained. (even though they usually give that semi-bleak expression of comprehension, or give you an, “Oh, ok!”) Also, some answers are just too much truth for these people. They’ll just keep asking, “Why?” like they’re 5 years old. As long as things work and they know how to do their tasks, they’re happy! Anyway, leave it to the sales people to do the talking! hehe

Instead of just posting off topic

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I’m not a good liar at work and definitely couldn’t get away with it at home. I’m sure I’ve taken a lot more heat from telling the truth but I’d rather be known as an honest idiot I guess.

In business negotiations for an employer I have found that it’s seldom a good idea for me to tell everything I know. It’s better to have a good poker face when not holding much of a hand.

It is always a good idea

In reply to Instead of just posting off topic

to hold SOMETHING back! Full disclosure is rarely a good thing!

Why…

In reply to It is always a good idea

did I just get flashbacks to the movie ‘The Crying Game’ :0

My Personal Policy of Truth

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

I?m no paragon of virtue; it comes down to practicality and pragmatism: telling the truth quite simply takes less time and effort than lying. I?m never caught trying to remember who got told what and I never have to think up a good story in a hurry. In my experience, lies have a nasty habit of coming back to bite the teller on the butt at the most inopportune time. Plus, lying is a bad career move; liars eventually develop a reputation for being ?either stupid or a liar? and either is professional suicide.

I think that some people lie because it affords them a temporary convenience (like getting people to stop poking at a sore topic). Liars fail to realize that lies of convenience often waste more time than was initially saved because of follow-up questions and requests for clarification that invariably come later down the road.

It?s a valid point that telling the truth can cause you to loose points in the office politics stock market. If you go to work to win popularity contests, and are comfortable telling lies, perhaps you?re due for a change ? I can think of a career that?s perfect for you (but you?ll have to wait until November to find out if you?ve won your new job).

of course…

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

In a former life I wasn’t a very nice person (some people say nothing has changed:-D)
Sometimes you need to tell a little white lie to smooth things over….as long as it is a little thing…
Generally, I don’t bother… it is much more fun to tell it like it is!

It’s unethical to lie at work

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

and unprofessional as well. If a customer (internal to the company or external) is not allowed to know some information (for proprietary reasons or any other reason), just flat out tell him/her/it that you cannot divulge the information.

On the other hand, if you were talking about “geeks” not being able to lie anywhere, anytime, I can flat out refute that opinion. I can lie with the best of them. With a straight face. Or maybe that just means that ain’t a geek. That would be fine with me, by the way. I could tell someone that the polar ice cap is melting, and they’d believe me. Er.. wait a sec.. the freakin’ polar ice cap IS melting. Now, am I lieing about that or not? LOL Hell, I could even tell someone that I broke my ankle in a skydiving accident when my parachute didn’t open and that was the only injury that I sustained, and I guarantee that he/she/it would believe it. 😉

The last time you told us about your skydiving

In reply to It’s unethical to lie at work

accident you said that you landed on your [b]head[/b] from 3,000 feet. Was that a lie? If so, it was a more plausible one than this “ankle” story!

See! You can’t keep even a simple tale like that straight.

:p

The truth is…

In reply to The last time you told us about your skydiving

that the only time I was lying was after I hit the ground. The force of the fall (to be more accurate, the force of the sudden deceleration in speed) knocked me unconscious. 😛

And you’re obviously not well-versed in the art of lying, Neil. See, you can’t even tell which of my stories is true or which is a lie or if both are true or if both are a lie. 😀 You gotta be able to quickly and seamlessly adapt the story to fit the circumstances or predicament in which you find yourself. Re: my broken ankle — I also told people I broke my ankle when I was hit by a boat while water skiing, even though it happened in the middle of winter. Not a single person doubted my story. People were so stunned by the extraordinary and potentially catastrophic nature of the accident that they didn’t even think of the unreasonableness of water skiing, or even going boating, during January. :^0

Lying requires reasonable social skills

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

a area geeks are known to be short in.

Yup- that leaves me …

In reply to Lying requires reasonable social skills

OUT.!. absolutely none of that here. 😀 Never had any, most likely never will. (if you can’t skin it and eat it… 😉 )

More truth to that than you might think…

In reply to Lying requires reasonable social skills

I suspect that many “geeks” suffer to some degree from Asperger Syndrome, which is a form of Autism. Impaired social skills are a hallmark of the disorder. As many Autistics are unable to “get into the mind” of whoever they’re talking to, they are unable to be deceitful and usually won’t even try to lie. If they do try to lie, they’re usually so bad at it (misreading cues to the mindset of others) that they quickly learn it’s not worth the effort.

Dilbert said it all

In reply to More truth to that than you might think…

As I read what you said, what ran through my mind was a brief scene in the Dilbert animated cartoon (can’t remember the episode) where a female (salesperson?) says to the male salesperson passionately, “Lie to me!” He says, “All the bugs will be fixed in the next version.” Then they smooch. The nerds in the company just sit there with this puzzled look on their faces, with a bit of disgust. They don’t get it. I thought the scene was hilarious. It’s so true when it comes to some geeks, and I include myself. We just don’t get social interaction.

There are plenty though who do get it. Most of the people I know who work in IT have girlfriends or are married.

We never went to Managment School ;\

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Lieing is an artform taught to Managment so they can get ahead. But we lowely IT people where always ytaught to be honest and tell the [b]Truth![/b]

It’s very hard to break old habits particualy when we see them as [b]Good Things like Intergery and Professionalisum.[/b] B-)

After all we are Professionals who deal in [b]The Truth[/b] and do not know how to lie sucessfully so we shouldn’t try at all but leave it to the Managers who need to do this so they can [b]Brown Nose[/b] their way to the top. :p

As the good Professor said in 2010 [b]You Asked a System to Lie who’s Main Function was to Deliver the Truth and it’s No Wonder That It Broke. [/b]

Col ]:)

Duplicate Post – How did that happen?

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

“Sorry, but I just can’t answer that question.”

Not answering is not the same as a lie – far from it

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

.
Just say, “Sorry, but I just can’t answer that question.”

If you’re pressed for a why or when, and it’s a sales person, just repeat yourself with the comment that you don’t really like to be pressed on the issue.

If you’re pressed for a why or when, and it’s a customer, just repeat yourself, but with the comment that you’ll pass the inquiry onto someone who might be better suited to answer, if he/she would like to pursue it, since you don’t want to provide false or incomplete information.

Lying is like masturbation. Those who say they’ve never done it……. ;)

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

are either lying, mentally ill or perhaps both.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

sticky keyboard

In reply to Lying is like masturbation. Those who say they’ve never done it……. ;)

WOULD explain OZ’s typing…… :0

Yours as well, for that matter.

In reply to sticky keyboard

😉

I clean my keyboard

In reply to Yours as well, for that matter.

so my typing is just because i speel like krap. 😀

but then the blindness and hairy palms don’t make life any easier….. ;\

Since you have replied to my post

In reply to Lying is like masturbation. Those who say they’ve never done it……. ;)

I shan’t say nothing.

]:)

And this on a long weekend off

In reply to Since you have replied to my post

with your folks. 🙂

You really must like us 😡
Well may be not all :^0 😉

Rob

Well gazer

In reply to Since you have replied to my post

it IS the thought that counts, and you just gave me a nice visual…… :0 Now I feel guilty thinking like that about a SIXTEEN YEAR OLD! 😀 ;\

Who said

In reply to Lying is like masturbation. Those who say they’ve never done it……. ;)

They have never lied.

I don’t do it now at work. I try not to do it at home, though the odd white lie slips in.

I have done it at work and seent he results, even when they were white lies. Even white lies poison a relationship.

James

I laughed, I cried, I almost wet myself

In reply to Who said

reading your post and thinking you were refering to the masterbation part instead of the lying part! :^0

Re-read it in that context and you had me giggling my mudderfriggenassoff! 😀

Edited

In reply to I laughed, I cried, I almost wet myself

Just goes to show how far in the gutter your mind lurks….

I edited the first sentance to correct your impression.

Hope at least you were embarrased in the office.

James

James, you say that

In reply to Edited

as if it were a bad thing? 😀

After all, it WAS the HEADING of the post your replied to. A natural misunderstanding.

I am sure you HAD to laugh as well when read in that context? 😀

“I don’t at work anymore…….” :^0

To Say no one can lie

In reply to James, you say that

In our PC world today I have yet to meet anyone that has not lied. If you have kids I can guarantee you lie to them everyday about something.Prime example,your 5 yr old asked you if you and mommy were having sex. Now before answering the question think about, if you yes good for you, if you sugar coated it then you just lied. If a salesperson at your place of employment ask if you can fix a problem in his Outlook and you look at it for him/her, and then you say can’t help (because in the back of your the guy just need click one button), you just lied. lol

ROTFLMAO [i]James I never suggested you would do [/i]THAT [i]at work.

In reply to Who said

I’ve heard of people jerking off at work but I always thought it was an euphenism for fooling around and/or goofing off and never took it seriously. Thank you for setting me straight. :^0

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Slowly crawls out of gutter for a few minutes

In reply to Who said

to say “sorry” to James. I never would have said it if it wouldn’t have been soooo funny…. ;\ I DID see what you were refering to by the end of the post (even before the edit) but was already laughing too hard not to say anything. 😀

Lies at work. Almost never a reason to lie, except for the occasional “I will get right on that”.

Lies at home. Not giving full disclosure to my boys on exactly why their mother moved out and what she is up to would be the closest to a lie as I have come in a long time. I am usually brutally honest with people (in case you haven’t noticed) and don’t see a need to lie.

I am more likely to just not respond if it is something I can’t truthfully give an answer for one reason or another.

don’t you mean

In reply to Slowly crawls out of gutter for a few minutes

crawls into the gutter from the sewer? 😉

Of course I did

In reply to don’t you mean

got to peek my head up every now and then! 😀

But his post DID have me in tears……. :^0

They say

In reply to Lying is like masturbation. Those who say they’ve never done it……. ;)

One out of every four people has a mental illness. Look at your three best friends. If they seem OK, [b]it’s YOU![/b] 🙂

I need to get more friends!

In reply to They say

so the laws of average will be on my side! 😀

If you believe that strongly in statistics…

In reply to I need to get more friends!

just make sure that at least 1/3 of your friends are certifiable, and that you never learn the statistical meaning of “deviation from the mean.” Then, you can live in ignorance, but safe in your delusion that [b]it cannot be you![/b]

]:)

Well, in that case AB

In reply to If you believe that strongly in statistics…

will you be my friend? 😀

[i]
(that makes ONE! Two more to go! :^0 )

B-)

I know, you saw that one coming before even reading it, but oh well.

:) But we ALL know about deviation…

In reply to If you believe that strongly in statistics…

at least we try not to be mean… ;\

Isn’t that the type of [i]”deviation from the mean.”[/i] you are talking about? 😀

Edited for smiley mishap.

Are you sure your not saying

In reply to :) But we ALL know about deviation…

that AB is a deviant? :0

We ALL also know that he IS mean! 😀

I am deviant.

In reply to Are you sure your not saying

I deviate far above the middle of the bell curve, to be accurate. And I only give credit where it’s due. If that causes me to appear “mean” to some, you’re free to adopt more rational expectations.

Not saying we’ve never done it

In reply to Lying is like masturbation. Those who say they’ve never done it……. ;)

It’s just that we’re not that inclined to do it. Masturbation? That’s another matter…

We have better things to do.

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

We have more productive things to do with our precious time, and the intelligence to have noticed this fact.

Being politicallly correct

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

is getting harder and harder every day 🙁

I find it difficult to lie as well. I’m too damned busy and it’s too much work to remember what you lied about.

When the question allows it, I tend to use non-answers, or questions as answers.

Q: Do you think I’m an idiot?

A: I would never say anything like that about you. What would make you ask that?

Of course, if they ever press me on it, I’m going to be forced to tell the truth.

What a delusion about geeks

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Geeks love to talk about marketing weasels making promises they can’t keep.

When was the last time you had a geek bring in a software project on budget, on time, and on spec?

If it happens all of the time (and it does), it means that geeks are either delusional or dissemblers.

You are confusing

In reply to What a delusion about geeks

poor management of projects by managers with the product that geeks are ALLOWED to deliver. It costs too much to get it right, and that is was service packs are for.

First to market is more important than quality code. It drives many code monkeys nuts, but they don’t call the shots.

Rigtht! It’s not their fault.

In reply to You are confusing

The comments stand. Even when not under pressure, estimates and promises from geeks are always suspect. If they are so truthful, why can’t they give valid estimates and dates?

That’s an Oxymoron

In reply to Rigtht! It’s not their fault.

It’s almost impossible to accurate. When an end user ask myself will it work my only reply is, “In theory it should”. Working on different machines is complicated enough, because end user very seldom gives you whole truth.

We have heard this before

In reply to Rigtht! It’s not their fault.

there is a big difference between being wrong about something, and lying about something.

And the geeks that do the coding are rarely the ones setting the promise date anyways! :p So there! ;\

No, it’s just a regular moron.

In reply to Rigtht! It’s not their fault.

If the estimates or dates aren’t valid, you didn’t get them from a real geek!

Accuracy

In reply to No, it’s just a regular moron.

As A geek yu can make the estimates and dates however, the the end-users, project managers, CFOs, decide to have a different opinion and change things, thats all I was saying. As geeks we are just merely technical advisors.

Understood & agreed.

In reply to Accuracy

I was mostly making a joke, also noting that the world needs geeks, but we don’t need them.

When was the last time you received a complete spec?

In reply to Rigtht! It’s not their fault.

Most of us make estimates on what is asked of us. We do it in all honesty and often inflate that estimate to include a “fudge factor” (time to go out for a bite of fudge or ice cream 🙂 ).

What is usually asked is “How long will it take to write this bit?” What isn’t asked is “… and debug it and put in comments and write documentation and get user sign-off and include spurious/random changes to the spec and include unforseen functionality that is really needed if the app is to really be useful and… and… and…” 🙁

In general we aren’t good at answering the questions that the project manager doesn’t ask but should have. Our estimates are, all too often, “What is the cumulative time to write the first version of the code not including mgmt interuptions for status reports, meetings, pulling me off to fix other things and going on sales calls.”

The PM is usually not very good at listening to the developer when s/he says “You are missing a bit of functionality here…” that isn’t included in the estimate but often ends up in the downstream spec changes (without changing the estimate). The Business Analyst is often not that good at asking the client “If this app needs to save intermediate work, shouldn’t there also be a ‘load’ feature?” and so on.

Specs are usually a wet finger in the wind so who is really doing “lying”?

My point exactly

In reply to When was the last time you received a complete spec?

Great reply thats what I was alluding to. However, I’m more on the HW side and it is the same way.

It’s not my fault, I was just following…

In reply to My point exactly

If you can’t complete a task within the time forced on you and you don’t speak up, you are an “unindicted coconspirator” (my favorite expression from the Watergate era).

Why would you keep letting it happen? If you keep doing the same thing over expecting different results, then you are insane.

Then we are all insane.

In reply to It’s not my fault, I was just following…

Playing the Lottery; fighting for world peace; telling your kids to clean up their room… the list is endless. 😀

We all do things over and over with little expectation for them to ever change so I guess we are all a bit insane. 🙂

The difference is in knowing that you are doing something productive that gets some reward or attempts to reach a better end.

Do I work on a new project knowing that it will probably have all of the aforementioned issues? Of course. Because I know that we will all work to achieve an optimal end. Things change. Specs are a static picture of a wild idea that somebody has. As work progresses we see that things need to change so we change them. It doesn’t mean that the process is invalid, more to the point it shows the process is working. And it all comes back to the understanding that we didn’t lie, we estimated honestly on what we knew. It is up to the PM to include the meetings in the estimate. If the PM doesn’t do that then everybody comes to understand that and adjusts expectations accordinly.

But you knew that already, didn’t you? ;\

Edited for errant smiley

It’s because they’re asked to do something inherently dishonest

In reply to What a delusion about geeks

This is a whole ‘nother subject. The truth is, from a software developer’s perspective, we’re typically asked for time/budget estimates before we’ve really started on the project, and the project is creating something we’ve never created before (well, there might be some similarities to past projects, but that’s splitting hairs). It’s rather like saying since you’ve built an intercontinental ballistic missile system, you should be able to estimate time and budget for a mission to the moon (assuming for the sake of argument we’re back in the early 1960s, before we went there). It’s a tall order. But since we’re required by management to do it before we can get started, we think back to past projects we’ve done, we pull figures out of the air (though it’s difficult to admit that to ourselves) and say that’s what our estimate is. Personally I think this whole methodology is unrealistic. We’ll play that way if you force us to.

Unfortunately I haven’t found a better method that’s acceptable to business clients. I’ve thought about it, but I’m probably biased. IMO, a better system would be to fund projects by progressive milestones, rather than the end product. If the customer likes the progress that’s been made for the money they’ve spent so far, they can elect to continue, or not if they’re dissatisfied. That way projects can be funded in pieces rather than in one huge chunk, creating smaller timelines and lists of requirements that are easier to estimate. This might be called an iterative method, but since I’ve never worked at a place that does that, I wouldn’t know.

Progressive milestones?

In reply to It’s because they’re asked to do something inherently dishonest

That would require the customers to understand what the engineers are doing. Mostly, customers are interested in aesthetics and functionality, not in unfinished projects.

I don’t dispute that

In reply to Progressive milestones?

Yeah, I was just dreaming there for a bit. Not only do they care more about aesthetics, they don’t give a damn how the software is designed under the covers. It could be total spaghetti code. They don’t know the difference. They end up paying what’s necessary to maintain the spaghetti code (for the sake of argument), which is more than it would be if the software was designed well, but they don’t seem to care about that. They probably figure that’s just what software maintenance costs.

I know my suggestion is not going to happen in most cases. I was just throwing it out there as a possible solution to the problem. It’s really up to the customers how they want to do it, since they’re the ones footing the bill. I was just saying to the other people who posted above me in the thread that since we live in this arrangement, don’t accuse the developers of lying if they keep missing their estimates. They’re doing the best they can, given the delapidated software lifecycle process that the other parties insist upon.

It’s been my experience both in the workplace and observing online discussions about IT management that in most cases software developers are low on the totem pole. Their opinions are either dismissed or ignored by management types, even if the managers are directly involved in IT. The arrogance is sad. I think they could learn something and save themselves a good deal of money on software projects by taking a few pointers from us.

lie

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

yes, lie to me, lie to meeeeeeee!!!!!!!!
no seriously, it’s great, but what is the lieing about anyways?
it just depends on the lie meant to say, and you know, you there is the truth, and then there is the truth (smile and act pretty).

We gain more socially by being open with each other

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

That’s my best explanation. We don’t gain respect among our peers unless we can fully explain what we’ve done. This means disclosing quite a bit of information. I think we’ve inherited this from other scientific disciplines, which strongly believe in peer review. One of the reasons open source has appeal to some developers is that they gain “cred” among their peers for the work they’ve done, and everyone can see their code. Again, full disclosure.

Many techies, myself included, find it hard not to get diarrhea of the mouth during job interviews. We forget that interviewers are not necessarily techies, and most of the information we give is irrelevant to them. We give too much information and forget in that situation that sometimes less is more.

The only communication skill I’ve learned when communicating with higher-ups is to occasionally “speak in the language of uncertainty”. I don’t lie, but I use words like “might”, and “should” (as in “this should work”). They can get annoyed with this because it makes me sound like I’m trying to avoid accountability. The reason I do it is I don’t want to make a promise I’m not sure I can keep. In the line of business I’m in I’m constantly learning, and so I hardly ever reach a point where I know everything there is to know about a technology. So everything is an experiment to a certain extent.

We gain more socially by telling people what they want to hear.

In reply to We gain more socially by being open with each other

As a geek we try to determine the truth so that we can work with it and solve problems (GIGO). However in our social life and career we will have far more success by agreeing with people. Few people like to be shown that their ideas are wrong, (paricularly bosses)and they will soon avoid geeks who do this. We gain credibility by being right and by providing correct solutions but we gain promotion through social acceptance. We gain social acceptance by agreeing with stupid ideas where it doesn’t matter and standing up to be counted where it is important. Knowing the difference and being able to handle it takes strength, gall, wisdom and the ability to lie. A further asset is the ability to fake empathy.

Which brings us back to the under-lie-ing point

In reply to We gain more socially by telling people what they want to hear.

Geeks have a hard time lying/misrepresenting so we often don’t get promoted and often have very empty social calendars (except for User Groups and tech conferences and so on) 🙂

There is that uncompromising need to point out to somebody that they missed salient points (see the thread “I don’t use Linux because…”) and not very many of us learn to control that. That is really the (or at least “a”) crux of this thread.

Your use of “we” applies more to the generic masses where the use of “we” in this thread speaks to the group of us that really has a hard time avoiding “Truth, Justice and the Linux Way” ( ;\ couldn’t resist that one).

========
disclaimer: apologies to die-hard Windows and classic Superman fans. 😀

All I have to say is …

In reply to Which brings us back to the under-lie-ing point

Pun-tastic!
:p

Oh, and that I agree as well. Lol.

Murphyism and probability

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

These two things are the contributing factors of the geek culture that make it extremely difficult for any geek to outright lie.
Murphy’s Law is “If anything can go wrong it will.”
Probability shows that anything IS POSSIBLE, but most things are improbable.
This leads to the geek responding to folks that pose questions expecting solid yes or no answers with answers including the words; should, could, may; and typically followed by the words; however, yet, and but.
It is the lack of an intrinsic black and white understanding the precludes most geeks from raw yes or no statements, to themselves or others.
As we live in a universe where Chaos Theory thrives, it is difficult for any geek to say “Yes, the project will be completed on time and will do everyting advertised.”.
This is not to say that geeks are more honest, just that they have to express the 65533 different levels of gray between black and white when responding to technical questions.

In sales, there are two answers, yes and no.
Can the product work and can we make money selling it to this client. Notice the can vs. the will.
This is the difference.

Buy the rumor, sell the fact.

In reply to Murphyism and probability

This is a saying in financial trading circles and sounds a bit like another parallel to what you are saying here. “Buy” on hearsay (the salesman) and “Sell” when you are sure (the geek/engineer).

I haven’t known too many techies that get into trading (they have a hard time buying rumors 😀 ) and not too many sales folks doing well in trading (they have a hard time recognizing facts ;\ )

Geeks can’t lie because

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

… telling the truth is the easiest and most logical solution. You won’t have to think about what you told this person and what you told another. Keeping track of what you said has never been easier if you tell the truth. It saves on processing resources.
If it were not for geeks’ laziness, we would still be living in an untechnological era.
Also, it’s a matter of conscience. Geeks are known to be integer, and this is because of their unfailing moral conscience. This also explains why most male geeks tend to be single until the woman they meet is wise enough to appreciate his knowledge and skills.
As for the “politically correct” part… Well, political correctness is a means of censoring people’s speech. To say what needs to be said in more words than necessary constitutes a waste of resources.

Imply

In reply to Geeks can’t lie because

“This also explains why most male geeks tend to be single until the woman they meet is wise enough to appreciate his knowledge and skills”

Therefore you imply a Woman cannot be a Geek?

Or are you telling a lie?

Paranoid!

In reply to Imply

The statement specified [b]male[/b] geeks, thus it did [b]not[/b] “imply a Woman cannot be a Geek”. More likely than being gender biased, haarhzh@ has a gender, and was citing personal experience of his/her own gender. I hope haarhzh@ will explain which interpretation is more accurate!

I read it as …

In reply to Paranoid!

a male geek WAITS for a female geek! Lol.

Implications?

In reply to Paranoid!

As Absolutely correctly stated, I did not imply that a woman cannot be a geek.

A man is only as good as his word

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Integrity is an all or nothing condition. Either you have it, or you don’t. Saying you ahve some integrity is the same as saying you’re a little bit pregnant. It’s a rare condition that telling a lie doesn’t void your integity.

A lie is a statement that deviates from or perverts the truth.
To tell a lie is to tell an untruth; pretend with intent to deceive.

If you’re having a conversation with the intent to entertain, and it is recognized by all parties that lies are a required part of the entertainment, then there is nothing wrong with lying; and it maintains your integrity.

A lie to protect your life, or the life of your loved ones may be justifiable. That’s a real ethical dilemma, stay true to your word, or protect your family? Frankly, if you’re threating my life or my family, I certainly don’t OWE you any consideration of the truth. Killing the monsters you lied to probably will void any feelings of guilt about it; as well as restoring a condition of safety.

Lying about trivial things like when a problem will be repaired, what caused an outage, who really screwed up the presentation, what your product quality really is don’t fit into those previous conditions. You do that sort of thing on the job, then you don’t have any integity, you’re dishonest, untrustworthy, and a liar.

SO, how does that make you feel?

WHAT, are you going to do about it?

Where ignorance is bliss,

In reply to A man is only as good as his word

’tis folly to be wise.

We are all reasoning creatures – aren’t we? Life is complicated and multi-layered and has – at least in my opinion – infinite shades of meaning, interpretation and perspective formed by cultural conditioning, social class, education and innate character and intelligence.

To take a simplistic viewpoint (and, I might say, camp yourself firmly on the moral high ground) and say NEVER LIE is, basically, more bollocks than is found in Linford Christie’s running shorts. And that, trust me, is a LOT.

We all lie all of the time. The Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus – it starts with our children and goes on from there. Politics is simply shades of meaning and spin. Lies. What is religion if not lies? To baldly state that something is true from a position of faith without proof is a lie, like it or not.

Anyway, back to the main point. Yes, I lie or withhold information or shade meaning and accept that lie for what it is and that is something that I have to judge on an individual basis and then deal with the consequences. That I am happy to do.

For you to stride in and denounce me as dishonest and untrustworthy and to question my integrity is, frankly, not yours to do.

There ARE WMDs in Iraq. See – it starts from the top.

God will save us. Hmmmmmm.

Oh, for the days of simple truths (plural)

In reply to A man is only as good as his word

The assumption that integrity is an all or nothing condition goes against most facets of civilization as we know it. Throughout our lives we live with little lies to help us grow and build upon the assumptions so that we can loop back and fill in the underlying assumptions with the more complicated truths to replace the simple “lies”.

To look at it from your position, if you ever told anyone “the sun just came up” then we should never trust you to recommend solutions to technical problems. If you ever speak about centrifugal forces (in a fixed coordinate system) then you should never be trusted to recommend a restaurant as being a good place to eat. If you tell your children “No, that didn’t hurt” to save their feelings when they accidently cause you pain then you should never be trusted drive a car.

Even the laws of men recognize that statements or promises made under duress (your “lying to protect life and limb” example) cannot be enforced in a court of law.

You have stated a purely binary position in an analog world. I hope you can come to terms with that before you end up old and alone.

Very philisophical

In reply to Oh, for the days of simple truths (plural)

Very philisophical, however trust has been long forgotten in this realm, everyone seems to be a cynic.

to an extent…

In reply to Very philisophical

While few people would ask most of us for marital advice, there is a lot of trust for travel advice. Just look at the sub-thread at the beginning of this series for the guy travelling to the Grand Canyon area. He is putting time and money on their advice.

I would trust many folks here to give me advice on computer configuration issues while ignoring their advice on political issues. Following their technical advice will require trust that I won’t completely waste my time.

Yes, we are mostly cynics but we live knowing that we are. We trust, but not too far out of our own field of knowledge.

Who knows… maybe we, who don’t like lies, gravitate towards this field because we know that the computer won’t, in most cases, lie to us…
😀

lie azerivista.com

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

If you can’t lie that means you are great!
It is perfect for you not to lie.
Your wife must love you!!!
ANna

Just one little point here STARGAZERR

In reply to lie azerivista.com

Is [b]FEMALE[/b] so I don’t think that she has a wife. 😀 :^0

Col ]:)

That all depends on …

In reply to Just one little point here STARGAZERR

where you live HAL. :p

Good Point Particularly with the Gay Marriage int he UK recently

In reply to That all depends on …

But I’ll let you take that one up with SG as I value my body way too much to even make a suggestion along those lines. :0

I’ve just suffered through a 12 hours MS Day so why would I try to provoke SG on this one? :p

Col ]:)

I can’t quite figure this one out…

In reply to lie azerivista.com

The bio says member since Sept 2005 but all the posts in the last 90 days were done yesterday. Each one was only superficially related to the topic where posted and all seem to be a sales pitch for the azerivista.com website.

It appears to be another “Hey, take this drug and buy it from me” site…

TR shouldn’t allow posting

In reply to I can’t quite figure this one out…

without better email validation

Too long in sales ???

In reply to I can’t quite figure this one out…

and marketing? maybe poor Anna is a the next 1Axx wanabe geek that just got stuck at a call center, and got bored.
(edited to add:
Internet Business For Sale
Business for sale,Internet Business For Sale. Profitable business for sale.www.azerivista.com/visa.html – 4k
from Yahoo.de(?)
trolling for buyers?

Probably because you’re a realist

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

Which I see as a good quality. And, you probably realise that you will just have to face the truth at some stage anyway. Lying about it often only postpones the agony. I am also mostly brutally honest and my customers know they can trust me because of that fact. To me, political correctness is something completely different and most often entails withholding a comment rather than lying about it because it is expected.

Because….

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

….they are such simple creatures, without ANY social skills!!!!!!

Oh no, you don’t.

In reply to Because….

I must insist that you withdraw that statement.

That sounds so much like a Salesperson’s

In reply to Because….

Reasoning of why the piece of equipment sold which would not meet the required needs and could not be made to work correctly by the [b]Lowly Tech.[/b]

I’ve yet to see a single sales person actually accept responsibility for a mistake that they have made in selling the [b]Wrong Thing[/b] to a client they always blame the tech because it doesn’t do the required job. A great example of this I got first hand recently when I went to the bank in what I believe the US Citizens call a [i]Mall[/i] I was cornered by a Dell salesperson who just wouldn’t take [b]NO[/b] for an answer and insisted that I must need a new computer and he was going to be the one that sold it to me. So I eventually gave in and told him that I was actually looking for a high end Workstation with at the very least Dual Xeon’s and several GIG or RAM Per CPU and the ability to boot Multiple OS’s. He immediately came up with their newest Note Book and told me it would be better because it was mobile. Now here we where talking a Celeron with 256 MEG of RAM and if I brought it immediately he would thrown in [b]Free[/b] Double Memory Upgrade and a DVD Burner. The fact that the offered unit was [b]So Far Below[/b] my needs was not important to this guy he was just there to sell these lousy NB’s at a Sub 1K price and He was pushing as hard as possible to get a sale no matter if it suited the required purpose or not. Now that particular unit with the Biggest CPU that it could hold and the MAX RAM load wouldn’t have come close to my absolute minimum requirements and when I complained they would have sent out a Tech who would then be expected to make it work to suit my needs.

Many years ago I used to describe my position as a Tech as [i]Miracles Performed Immediately the Impossible takes Slightly Longer and for Comic Relief I walk on Water on the Weekends![/i] Needless to say when I was exposed to the customer I sold them the right thing for their needs and I constantly out sold the so called Sales people and I had the added advantage of never having a single return because the computer didn’t work to suit the customers needs. The only down side was I didn’t get a [b]Sales Commission[/b] for every unit that I sold and because I wasn’t on the [b]Sales Team[/b] I didn’t have any flexibility all I could ever say was [i]This is what you need and its Recommended Retail Price is[/i] if they went to a salesperson they where always sold down to something unsuitable so every one of my customers where willing to pay full Retail and have a unit that worked with only scheduled Down Time instead of spending months trying to get something to do the job it was brought to perform and never succeeding.

Col

Because lying, cheating and stealing are the methods of incompetents.

In reply to Why can’t geeks lie?

😀

[Author]

Replies