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  • #2257282

    Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?


    by dmayn1988 ·

    Wanted to get a consensus about whether or not people feel that Macs will ever be accepted for use in the business field. This question came up with some co-workers who swear by Mac products and felt that more business people will be using them in the near future as opposed to the PC. I feel that its very unlikely since so many platforms afe based around Windows systems in addition to software.

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    • #3231909

      Answer: Maybe now

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Short answer: The PC hardware, Windows workstations, Windows servers, additional PC/Windows-compatible hardware, and applications written for Windows (internal and external) are a deeply entrenched standard in the home, business, and government. Describe how ANY other computer architecture could displace that easily.


      That said, I think the Mac will become noticeably more accepted in the future than it has been in the past because of the new Intel-based Macs. It is because these new machines can run Windows itself in a VM that will enable this. Windows will not go away.


      The Macintosh has always been more of an “information appliance” than the Windows PC. It still is and the latest iterations of Mac OS X are extending this. If you have ever sat down in front of a Mac and had to serious work over a significant period of time, you would know what I’m speaking of. My primary computer was a Mac for a few years. It’s not hype. Its “just works” as an “information appliance” in the same way that your toaster “just works” as a “toast appliance”. No driver problems. No blue screen crashes. Audio and video playback just works. The video phone just works. No sound card problems. No headaches. And virtually no malware problems to worry about. If you believe these words then you KNOW the difference between the Mac and the Windows PC as I do.

      My primary system now: PC hardware running Windows XP. I also use Linux and a Mac on the side. 🙂 The Mac is better today than it ever was.

      • #3231752


        by bill_ca ·

        In reply to Answer: Maybe now

        As long as it is for a valid business reason and not just for the reason of a user preference.

        We don’t let people use a different brand of word processor due to a “preference”, why should it be any different for a computer.

        A mac is not the same as a PC and to introduce one into the environment means that there are a lot of accommodations that need to be made.

        • #3231638

          I largely agree with you, and…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Why?

          I agree with you. That was one of the major points of my post. But, now that the new Intel-based Macs can actually run Windows and Windows applications, I think some companies will start allowing some deployment of these machines where they never would before. That’s all I was saying.

          I agree. The bottom line is that PC hardware, Windows clients, Windows appl, Windows Servers, and Windows middleware are the entrenched standard. Corporations are not going to switch to the Mac. If they were, they could have done it before the Intel-based Mac.

        • #3231572

          I doubt that many companies

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I largely agree with you, and…

          would allow for Macs just because it can use Windows in a virtual mode. The system would eat up more licenses (needs a Windows license too, and SW licenses for both OS’s), and more HW resources. If a company was going to use Mac systems, it would cost more in support if they are already in a Win environment. Because now they need support for Win/Mac and compatibility issues.
          That said, I do think that many companies are looking at alternatives to MS. In many job searches, I have noticed a lot more cross platform positions than in the past (Win/Mac, Win/Linux, etc.).

        • #3201934

          Open standards will make the difference not the OS

          by pheck ·

          In reply to I largely agree with you, and…

          I would suggest that the standards that drive the ICT world are converging, not diverging and that it willonly be a matter of time before the flavour of desstop OS that you want will be a matter of personal choice and working preference, not tied to some arbitary code produced by a single company.
          You are also assuming that all businesses are oing to be using Win servers and Win middleware.
          The apps that are being used are off the shelf and multi platform and the hardware is getting harder to distinguish (Intel on both Mac and non-Mac).
          Open standards will become the entrenched standards. There are enough examples of corporations that have a long associatio with the Mac platform.
          The Win environment is moving along the same path with VM ware appearing on all major platforms as an in-built capability.

        • #3231010

          Theory vs. reality

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Open standards will make the difference not the OS

          Your post is interesting. But, I think you are applying theory that is disconnected with the reality of how corporations (I’m speaking about USA corporations here) and commercial IT vendors actually operate.


          [begin quote]
          “…it willonly be a matter of time before the flavour of desstop OS that you want will be a matter of personal choice and working preference…”
          [end quote]

          I disagree. Corporate buyers do not now permit much or any “personal choice and working preference” for many reasons. One of them is that they standardized on something and enforce the standard corporate-wide. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

          Also, I see commercial IT product vendors continuing to make a strong effort to ensure that will never occur. They don’t ever want their products to be mere commodities and leave it up to the buyer to choose freely. They will continue to do non-open things to distinguish their products in ways that will drive customers to them and lock them in if at all possible. Do you disagree?


          [begin quote]
          “…You are also assuming that all businesses are oing to be using Win servers and Win middleware…”
          [end quote]

          The vast majority of them ARE right now. I don’t see ANY reason to believe corporations are going to abandon their current investment in these things and adopt the Intel Mac and some other kind of servers and middleware. Do you?


          [begin quote]
          “…The apps that are being used are off the shelf and multi platform…”
          [end quote]

          Speifically which apps are you speaking about? Do you see apps that are Windows-specific going away to the extent that Windows will no longer matter? How so?


          [begin quote]
          “…Open standards will become the entrenched standards…”
          [end quote]

          I agree that open standards are gaining ground. But, I don’t necessarily think that non-open standards will go away. What do you think is going to happen to non-open standards like the following: Windows Client? Windows Server? Microsoft .NET Framework? MS Word native file format?


          [begin quote]
          “…There are enough examples of corporations that have a long associatio with the Mac platform…”
          [end quote]

          There are far more examples of corporations that have not adopted the Mac platform and have adopted Windows instead. I don’t understand the point you are trying to make.

      • #3231711

        Just FYI…

        by ladyirol ·

        In reply to Answer: Maybe now

        The Intel Macs do not need to run Windows XP in a virtual machine – they run XP natively. This translates to equivalent (and sometimes faster)benchmarks. I am quite sure that Windows IT professionals will be won over in time since the superior hardware will be less trouble to work with.

        • #3231636

          Thanks, and…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Just FYI…

          Thanks for your reply.

          I was/am aware of Boot Camp. I just don’t see Boot Camp as a viable approach for business for two reasons:

          1. Switching: It takes just too much time for a user in a business to boot and reboot between OS X and Windows using Boot Camp. I would never want operate my computer that way and try to get work done. And, I would never endorse employees doing so either.

          2. Windows-only: If the business user is booting just to Windows, there is no compelling reason to run with Apple hardware. There are plenty of high quality PC hardware companies to choose from.

          I think the magic of the Mac appears when it is running OS X. When it is running Windows, it’s just another PC. And, it’s a more EXPENSIVE and less FLEXIBLE PC. When you by a real PC, you get rock bottom competitive prices and the flexibility of commodity hardware PCI cards and drive bays. The only Mac that supports such things is the new Mac Pro that STARTs at $2500 without monitor! There is no Mac with PCI slots and drive bays for $1000 as there is with a PC. No contest.

          Corporate environments have widely standardized on PC hardware, Windows clients and Windows apps (MS Office, etc.), and Windows servers and Windows middleware (e.g. Exchange). They are not going to give that up. That’s why I posted about running Windows clients on a Mac in a VM. If the new Intel-based Mac makes new penetration in corporate environments, I think this is the way it will occur. It will be in corporate environments that permit the extra expense of running a Mac as an ADDITIONAL level of functionality (Mac OS X -and- Windows simultaneously).

        • #3231550

          Rock Bottom

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to Thanks, and…

          You are so rite you get “When you by a real PC, you get rock
          bottom..” Then you need to buy the higher end graphics card.
          Upgrade your sound card. Buy a monitor that can be calibrated to
          do ‘REAL’ Photoshop graphics as well as 3D animation. Bigger and
          better hard drives. Perhaps a high poweered RAID card.

          Add it all up and you’ve got a MacPro Workstation that really does

        • #3231491

          Blinded by Mac love

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Rock Bottom

          Your post strongly suggests you are blinded by Mac love. Nothing wrong with that. But you need to recognize it.

          The Mac Pro desktop is a Ferrari, a very very high end transportation device. It’s an outstanding rush of a machine. 99% of all computer users don’t need a Ferrari and can do very well with a more moderate computer.

          My point in bringing up the Mac Pro is that it is the only Mac that provides PCI slots and drive bays. That versatility and expandability is commonly available to Windows PC users at the $1000 price point.

        • #3212648

          Love Is Blind

          by yobtaf ·

          In reply to Blinded by Mac love

          There’s nothing like driving a Farrari or a Mac.

          They’re the choice of people who have a choice.

          When you’re forced to switch to Vista, your computer will have to
          be ‘zooped-up’ like a Mac to handle the Mac-like features. But you
          know, it still wouldn’t be a Mac.

        • #3212480

          ‘zooped up’

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to Love Is Blind

          Will said. M$ will never produce an elegant and efficient OS let
          alone the Mac experience.

        • #3212483

          Mac Love

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to Blinded by Mac love

          You are correct in pointing out the simple fact that majority of
          consumers do not require or can handle the performance of a
          Ferrari. They wouldn’t know what to do with it. The only people
          who profit here are software and hardware manufacturers that
          say – ‘You need this if you want to do that!’ Then your ‘Price
          point’ argument is out the window. It all adds up to buying the
          peripherals and paying for tech support!

          Remember back in the day when SCSI cards were the rage? Both
          boxes had them. That was the only way to customize your box! I
          have a very old Power PC 7100. That little freak just won’t stop
          producing quality graphics in record time. And talk about na
          antiquated OS!

          I, for one, am not afraid of working on a Windows box but when
          it comes to creating highend, color corrected material for print
          or film – let’s just say it’s more cost effective to work on a Mac.

          As to your remark about being “Blinded” – when was the last
          time you enjoyed the sunshine? By the way, how’s your tan? Want
          to go surfing? Oh, I’m sorry, you got a boatload of Windows
          machines that need to know how to play nicely together with all
          the other preipherals.

        • #3166748

          Mac Pro has joke graphic card!

          by davor.maricic ·

          In reply to Rock Bottom

          First thing: you must buy higher end graphics card for Mac Pro, if you want anything serious to do! And audiocard, too, if you want to do serious business. And Yes, most cheaper PC MoBo`s has S/PDIF out for Hi-res output to your digital amp.
          Every good monitor with professional pricetag has calibration, CRT or LCD, see Iiyama, Samsung, of course high-end models…

          Well, let se how much proper PC can cost:
          Dual Core D 940 2×3.2 GHz, 2 GB RAM, ASUS DoubleLayer DVD+/-RW, 320GB SATA II disk, 2xGB-LAN, wireless 802.11b/g, 2x Firewire, 10x USB2.0… with proper nVIDIA 7600GT silence/no-fan-cooled graphic card w/512MB RAM (not this 7300 GPU for kids… compare, OS / drivers included/preinstalled.
          For 1.200$.
          A lot of headroom under 2.500 MacPro pricetag.

        • #3201933

          Sorry but that’s incorrect

          by pheck ·

          In reply to Thanks, and…

          Just some corrections for you…
          1. Using VM ware you can ‘switch’ without re-booting and you would only do so if there was a need to use platform specific apps (or personal preferences). With a virtual desktop up and running you would be able to jump back and forth as required without the re-boot lag.
          2. Macs have, for quite some time, had the capability to have third party hardware replace their own internals, including PCI cards, HDs, etc. Take a look at the TCO of the device and what the spec is before you buy and then compare.

          MS Office does not only come as a Win app and a range of Mac apps are very capable of running with Win middleware. Extra expense of running a Mac? Based on TCO or spec for spec machine? I thought that we had got beyond that.

        • #3201719

          My reply

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Sorry but that’s incorrect

          Thank you for your post. I was not making a general Windows vs. Mac argument. That is very old and very boring. Some corrections and comments:


          [begin quote]
          “…1. Using VM ware you can ‘switch’ without re-booting and you would only do so if there was a need to use platform specific apps (or personal preferences). With a virtual desktop up and running you would be able to jump back and forth as required without the re-boot lag…”
          [end quote]

          You misread my post. My post was in reply to a previous one about Boot Camp. Apple’s “Boot Camp” requires rebooting to switch between Windows and MacOS. Obviously, virtual machine software like VMWare or Parallels does not.


          [begin quote]
          “…2. Macs have, for quite some time, had the capability to have third party hardware replace their own internals, including PCI cards, HDs, etc. Take a look at the TCO of the device and what the spec is before you buy and then compare…”
          [end quote]


          [begin quote]
          “…Extra expense of running a Mac? Based on TCO or spec for spec machine? I thought that we had got beyond that…”
          [end quote]

          One corporate buyer’s TCO is not the same as anothers’ TCO. Further, for many corporate buyers, the buying decision, right or wrong, is more driven by hard acquisition cost, not “total cost of ownership” that includes all kinds soft and deferred costs. If other corporate computer buyers and users agreed with you, the ratio of Windows/PC systems to Mac systems inside corporations would be very different.

          Specific Example: Many corporations need and want the flexibility of PCI slots in order to use 3rd party PCI cards for various purposes. The entry point for a Mac with PCI slots is currently $2500. The entry point for a PC with PCI slots is around $500 and there are many manufacturers to choose from. If the PCI slots are considered a must-have for a given buyer, that corporate buyer is going to have to justify that $2500+ MacPro or s/he will go with a much cheaper (acquistion cost) PC instead.

          Even so, when I said “extra expense of running a Mac”, it was in a specific context. I was speaking about the new Intel-based Macs, running MacOS, MacOS apps as additional functionality, Parallels, Windows, and their existing Windows apps. There is a lot of extra expense in there. Now, if corporations stopped running Windows, some of that additional expense would go away, right? But, that opportunity has been there for many years. That is an OLD discussion and that kind of conversion just hasn’t happened.


          [begin quote]
          “…a range of Mac apps are very capable of running with Win middleware…”
          [end quote]

          You would be correct if you said “…with SOME Win middleware…”. It’s simply false that the Mac can run as a client with ALL middleware that is in use in corporations that have standardized on Windows.


          My posts in this thread here are about what I think corporate buyers think and will be doing, not the opinions of individual business computer users, and not about the point-by-point actual capabilities of the Macintosh computer.

        • #3201846

          What Superior hardware?????

          by pweegar1 ·

          In reply to Just FYI…

          What “superior” hardware are you talking about??? Sorry, but mac hardware is hardly superior to the Windows platform. I work in a large company. (Nat’l and int’l we have approx 16,000 employees). Many ppl at our corp. headquarters still run Windows 95/98 on old (i.e Pent/Pent II/Pent III) pc’s. A hard drive fails, it gets replaced, etc. It costs a lot of money to upgrade/replace. We go with what’s the most affordable. Generally new computrs are Dell.

          We (the IT ppl) have way more than enough to do without having to worry about Macs (and to be fair, yes, a couple of divisions do use Macs, and they have as many problems as our Windows based hardware. After all, hardware IS hardware and as such is subject to eventual failure).

          IF anything, migrations, when done, and if they are critical to the business, go back to the mainframe. We just purchased a new IBM mainframe and it’s used a lot. We also have a number of HP Unix boxes.

          As far as software goes, we not only use canned, off the shelf software, but produce a large amount of it in house. The software we produce would NOT run on a Mac. Therefore going to a Mac would be a huge waste.

        • #3230789

          Interesting, but

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to What Superior hardware?????

          Compared to Dell, the hardware is superior. That is not to say
          there are not the occasional ‘lemon’ but we must remember it is
          STILL a machine made on an assembly line . . . in China. That
          said, the fact you have more than enough to do probably has
          more to do with the volume of old worn out equipment that has
          been abused over the years, and the situation is being amplified
          by the inclusion of new junk hardware. Sincerely, my heart goes
          out to you, as you didn’t make the purchasing decisions. Befor I
          started my own business recently, I worked for a large-ish firm
          with approximately 5,000 employees in North America. I would
          say we had about 40% on Macs (including myself). Always
          problems with the WinBoxes (largely software related) but rarely
          any issues with the Macs. OK, on occasion a hard drive failed.
          Big deal. We too had the usual arrangement of software you
          mentioned, with the exception that our custom in-house created
          variants that the Macs needed to use were easily written in Unix.
          Last I heard from some of my colleagues is more Macs are being
          readied to replace aging WinBoxes. The simple fact is, a Mac can
          do anything a PC can do and can do it economically better in the
          long run. That is my personal work experience. And for the
          record: My firm (+/- 100 employees) only uses Macs too. ‘Nuff

    • #3231723

      Laptops yes

      by macubergeek ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Mac laptops have a better chance. The main problem is the lack of
      knowledge about macs on the part of typical IT support staff. There
      is a certain amount of anti-mac predjudice as well.

      • #3231616

        Disagree with knowledge level issue.

        by ·

        In reply to Laptops yes

        Several IT staff including myself have Macs (our own personal systems, that we occasionally use for work purposes.). Inside they are simply just rebadged Intel boxes at this point, ATi video cards and everything else that PC’s use. they’ll run Windows and OS X is just as easy to pick up. It runs out of the box, limited WEP encryption though for wireless connectivity. Citrix installs and is easier than the Windows version to create published applications for. Support really isn’t an issue, so much as having a licensed copy of Windows in addition to OS X. Office, that shouldn’t be any more of a problem than it would be for any other PC or even a 3rd party software.

      • #3231549

        Well said

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Laptops yes


      • #3212543

        From the “typical IT support staff”

        by mjwx ·

        In reply to Laptops yes

        of a company that acquired a graphic design company about a year ago.

        The anti-Mac prejudice is well deserved. They are not network functional machines especially with a windows network (they don?t do any better with Linux domains either).

        First of all they do not support DLA (Domain Level Authentication) so passwords need to be entered every time a program needs access to non-local resources (internet, email, shares) and don?t get me started on the keychain which requires its own password to access (not tied to the domain) which no graphic designer could remember. DLA should be invisible to the user, enter password once. As if getting it on a domain in the first place isn’t hard enough

        Next its an entirely new OS to learn, its not Windows and it sure as hell is not Linux. It is not unreasonable to expect the support tech (me) to understand the operating system near to its entirety. The advanced functions (cough) are hidden to the user. If you want to see hidden folders you need to hack the* file to do so (via the terminal) and hope you don?t break the OS in the process. At least in Windows for all its flaws I can unhide files and folders in 5 clicks and 10 seconds.

        No calendar sharing, this is a major sticking point with our marketing people (I’m hoping that evolution will fix this).

        MS may push its own proprietary standards but apple is far worse, not only pushing its own proprietary standards which are incompatible but pushing its own proprietary hardware. A few months ago we had a Mac power supply blow up due to a power surge. It wouldn?t have happened if the Mac user turned off his machine over the weekend like we tell them to but do Mac users listen to the IT staff? Well I being unable to take the damn thing apart myself without voiding warranty took the 1 year old G5 to the Crapple support centre where they told me what I already knew, the PSU had blown up. But to add insult to injury they said it would take [b]three days to get a replacement power supply[/b]. Three days, why aren?t there PSU’s on the shelf in a [b]service centre[/b]. I could replace a PC power supply in 30 minutes and that includes going to the shop to buy one and have it installed by me or the trained monkey at the store thats if I ignored the one on my shelf. Three days is not the support I expect for a production environment.

        These are just a few of the problems I have had in the last year, so before you blame the IT support staff, please talk to one and find out we are not as knowledge lacking as you think and that anti-Mac bias is alive because of very good reasons. Windows versus Mac, in a corporate environment? Windows hands down because it?s better the devil we know.

        Disclaimer: I am a Linux person and consider Mac OS X to be a mutant aberration (no CLI and the single user mode does not count).

        • #3212479

          Why aren’t you using UNIX

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to From the “typical IT support staff”

          so, exactly, if you’re so savy, why are you using UNIX?

        • #3212444

          Because I am not the guy who makes the decisions

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Why aren’t you using UNIX

          management decided on windows and I am not in management. When it comes to what I use at home (when not game related) I use Linux.

          You have follow the procedures of where you work, why cant some people grasp that concept.

          In my experience almost anyone can work well when they are given exactly what they want, only the really good people can work well with what they are given (this is the catagory I fit into, fluent in three OS’s).

        • #3166813


          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to Because I am not the guy who makes the decisions

          Don’t get all huffy under the collar…. Anyone in an industry that
          relies heavily on computers knows that the ‘Bean Counter’s’ drive
          the bottom line.

          C’mon… relax a bit. It’s not you for goodness sake.

          Go jump into your swimming pool and order up a Mai Tai or

        • #3229728

          Well its winter here

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Management

          So the pool is not such a good idea however a nice cold beer may just be what the doctor ordered.

        • #3231240

          My reasons

          by wdewey ·

          In reply to Why aren’t you using UNIX

          Just wanted to add my reasons for not using Linux at my workplace.
          I have several third party apps that will not run on Linux.
          Purchasing software from a vendor requires a yearly payment for critical patches (as well as software update, but there is no way to differentiate from what I have seen).
          Updates can break applications (same as MS, but MS breaks things less often in my experience). If you don’t believe this then start looking at commercial releases for Linux and look at the requirements they present (SQLBase 9 requires SUSE9, SUSE10, RH Enterprise ?, I can’t remember off the top of my head, or particular library versions. I tried it on Fedora Core 4 and it would not install).
          I have a large pool of office templates that my department uses and I have not found an office suite that provides an easy way to do mail merge documents. My standard method is to have an app write a text file which is used as the mail merge source (keeps me from having to embed the query, which can change, in the document). Haven’t ever found anyone who has a solution to this.
          Domain membership for Linux is poor. After adding Windows machines to the domain I can: login with any domain account, assign permissions to LOCAL resources, assign permissions to domain resources, spoofing the machine name is more difficult because the computer account has a password that changes automatically (I believe every hour, but it could be longer than that) This is an added level of security that I have not seen with any other system. Domain member ship can be done during the install process as well as with a few button clicks. It is possible to set up a LDAP server and get domain logins, but this takes a great deal of work and engineering. I am hoping SAMBA 4 will take care of some of this burden.
          ACL’s are still kind of an add on with Linux and Windows provides this level of granularity with a nice gui interface.

          I would appreciate any construtive comments about these problems. I am looking for ways to replace windows without requiring more work and money than I am currently spending to support the system.

          As a side note, my organization recently went to an open source product for their main web site. It wasn’t a good experience. The software proformed fine with a minimal load, but had a large number of errors when the work load was increased. Of course there was no support (open source remember). So we had several engineers pulled off other projects to troubleshoot and fix the issues. Total cost? I don’t know, but I do know the project was delayed 6-8 months and several different engineers and DBA’s were pulled in to fix it.


    • #3231715

      Why not?

      by ladyirol ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Question would be why not… Since Apples have superior hardware to begin with and since they now have the ability to run Windows on them… The question is moot – btw: one of my contractors just went out and bought a new MacBook Pro and has had no problems working with her Windows XP on it. Additionally, her personal business and graphics work is being done on the safer Mac side of things… She loves the options.

      • #3231654

        Common misconcept

        by davor.maricic ·

        In reply to Why not?

        Well, I can see Mac-o-phile`s flamings on me, but I must say some opposite opinion. First, Legends about modern Mac (Intel-based) hardware is superior are just… legends. See a specifications and take a calculator.
        Then, about virus and malware resistance of OS X, also “bulletproof” to cracking… Just, for about less than 2% worldwide users, no cracker, hacker or visur maker will move it`s fingers to make a number of viruses. Also, talking about most dangerous malware stuff (phising, social engineerig, cookie planting…) there is equal chance that Mac and Windows user will be naive, just the same. If Mac users will have so much availabile tools form making programs, and so broad audience, then Mac will be under attack same as Windows. I have been read somewhere on this site that “XP is on… what Service pack… 2?” Well, OS X is on it`s 5th Service pack, some of them were not free for upgrade – in fact, Apple call them “a new versions”. Come on!
        Also check up the number of security patches on MS and Apple`s web, so you`ll be suprised that the count is… similar!!!???
        For that question, problems with the drivers are because PC hardware companies must have drivers that will work with thousand different combinations, and they do not have a luxury (as Apple has) to say: We will put our hardware/drivers next month when we polish drivers and remove bugs, and we have 3 or less mobo`s to handle, 2 graphics and 1 revision of OS (how many times you wanted to put some new drivers with some corrections that bugs your Mac, but you had an error message “This drivers requies Mac OS X 1.2.5 or higher. Please update or….”)?? Well, I had it a lot of times… even with new revisions of software!. same, only maybe once with windows (about need of SP2).
        There is no doubt that OS X comes with a nice GUI, with lot of good software (but OS`s price covers most of it, let`s be sincere) and stable – but if you have a good chosen PC, especially if you buy brand name with OS/drivers/package preinstalled, your PC is good and stable as Mac.
        And you can use it 5 years, like a Mac. But you don`t have to, because you can buy a new affordable PC with new hardware which will make your job done faster, give you more efficiency in time. Cmon, if you have a G4 800 from 2001 ( for just 2500$, you did a really slow work last 2 years until today, when you bought a new Mac with Dual-Core CPU, for also a 2.500$ (
        It is 5.000 worth of computers, without additional software (Yes, Photoshop, Indesign and Quark costs the same for Mac or PC, so it is fixed costs for both platforms). And you could buy OS X, which emerged in the meantime, and 1.x upgrade (I don`t remember which one) for another 100$. So, around 5.200$, sorry if my math is not exact in penny…
        At the same time, my papa worked on same Intel machine (Pentium III 800 / 512 RAM / 80 HDD) PC from 2000., with upgrade only Windows XP and DVD+RW, and his business is OK. Same as with Mac? Yes, but for 1.000$
        He now bought Dual Core D 940 2×3.2 GHz, 2 GB RAM, DualLayer DVD+/-RW, 320GB SATA II disk, 2xGB-LAN, wireless 802.11b/g, 2x Firewire, 10x USB2.0… with proper nVIDIA 7600GT silence/no-fan-cooled graphics w/512MB RAM (not this 7300 GPU for kids… compare, OS / drivers preinstalled, for 1.200$.
        Most high productive utils are free on both OS`s, for professional use there is a price, on both side. Some tools come free with computer, as Nero Burning ROM or Ulead DVD Video Studio, for example, or some PC games… But I do not count that.
        Bottom line: 2.200 vs. 5.200 during 5 years. Problems with dirvers and bluescreens? I`ve seen more bombed Macs. For 3.000 he could buy himself an used car. Or have one new computer in the meantime, and still have 2.000$ in his pocket.

        I know this is blasphemous in your opinion, but consider my math. And consider dangers of widespread platform, malware and other problems which minor platforms do not suffer.
        more info on updates.
 (40x10pages=400 patches&updates???)

        Why also OS X has AutoUpdate, if not necessery? (

        Hello, World!

      • #3231546

        Why Not?

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Why not?

        Corporate bottom line requires the lowest amount expended for
        hardware purchases because they need the money to pay their IT

    • #3231683

      As hardware goes,

      by ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      yes, there is no reason why an Intel based system isn’t/shouldn’t be readily accepted. I see the plastic MacBook as really the mobile Mac that could press into service quite well. A Dell will run you $ 2K+ easy, you can get essentially the same hardware for $ 1K, then buy MS Software to run with it (licensed OS and even the Office suite for it, while still having OS X as another OS for choice/preference). The aluminum powerbooks, those suck for everyday use, they are far too fragile. I have an older 867, it’s ok, but I have to carry it around like it’s a new-born infant. I’d hate to think what it would look like and how it would run if I ever used it mobilly beyond inside my apartment on a regular basis. It’s exactly the way I bought it Dec. 2003 as used, missing one foot and a couple of light scratches on the bottom, slight wear of the silver on the top and near the touchpad, but still solid silver. It’s pristine since I’ve owned it.

      For additional cost of the OS/softwares, that’ll be what kills the deal for the other units. The new desktop is quite a system.

    • #3231681


      by cmaldonado ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Because of the higher cost of Macs, with little performance advantage if any, I don’t believe IT people will ever go out of their way to purchase Macs for general use. We can buy low end PCs which will perform worse than a Mac or high end ones which will outperform them — it’s our choice to be able to match price/performance based on needs. Furthermore, the stability of XP has improved dramatically (commercials notwithstanding) so as not to be a serious issue. However, if a consultant brings one in they are now more likely to be “accepted” or in the worst case “tolerated”.

      • #3231604

        Your Wrong About Price

        by yobtaf ·

        In reply to Tolerated

        The Mac is comparable and in some cases cheaper.

        The myth about being more expensive is not true anymore.

      • #3212492


        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Tolerated

        You stated:
        “Because of the higher cost of Macs, with little performance
        advantage if any, I don’t believe IT people will ever go out of
        their way to purchase Macs for general use. We can buy low end
        PCs which will perform worse… (Understatement of the year!)

        than a Mac or high end ones which will outperform them..
        (Prove it!)

        — it’s our choice to be able to match price/performance based
        on needs.(“So gaming is preferential to actual quality of work?”)

        “Furthermore, the stability of XP has improved dramatically
        (commercials notwithstanding) so as not to be a serious
        issue.” (How many times did you need to reboot? How many
        support calls did you have to make? Was it very easy to find that
        right drivers for all your peripheras? did this save you any
        amount of time or money?)

        However, if a consultant brings one in they are now more likely
        to be “accepted” or in the worst case “tolerated”.
        (To quote Tom Lycas – REALLY…..)

    • #3231671

      Here a Mac, There a Mac, Everywhere a Mac Mac

      by tweakerxp ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      I was out drumming up some repair work for my business and I went into the local newspaper office and every one of the computers there were G3Mac and new IMac’s! They even had one of the first iMac (green)on display. I asked why they were running Mac’s and no one could give me an answer, but they sure did like them.

      • #3231348

        Macs gone

        by jwmartin1 ·

        In reply to Here a Mac, There a Mac, Everywhere a Mac Mac

        I worked at a newspaper and we got rid of all the Macs and bought PCs to take their place. They work great.
        Mac laptops will not break into the biz market because they are way too expensive, and most people feel more comfortable with a PC.

    • #3231634

      The Mac as an Information Appliance

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Just a short true story.

      A few days ago, I bought a 3rd party (Tripp-Lite…not even APC) UPS at a retail store for use with my Macintosh running OS X. I plugged it in to the wall, plugged the Mac into it, and connected the USB cable between them. I was DELIGHTED at what happened. The Mac recognized the UPS immediately and began working with it. The Mac shows the percent of charge remaining and will gracefully shutdown if the power fails and the UPS gets down to 10% charge left (i.e. there is a high level of interaction between them). The Mac did not ask to download and install drivers or software. It do not ask to reboot. It didn’t even show a dialog box with “New hardware detected”. These two devices just started working together without a peep. It actually threw me off at first — I thought they were not working together. But, I found the magic answer when I opened up System Preferences to find the Mac had already done it all for me.

      The experience on my primary machine that runs Windows XP was completely different and a complete pain in the *ss as it always is. Mind you, I can ALWAYS get my Windows machines to run properly. But, it always takes a lot of effort including softare installation, driver installation, configuration, reboots, headaches, and time.

      There is nothing like the ease of use you get from the very tight hardware-software integration in the Mac.

      • #3212514

        The Magic of Macs

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to The Mac as an Information Appliance

        Isn’t iut great to know that our Macs are far superior in OS
        operations than that other OS?

        • #3212498

          Back in 1985, my first computer was…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to The Magic of Macs

          Back in 1985, my first computer was a Macintosh. I chose it because I recognized at that early time that it was superior to the PC. It was with great disappointment that I watched the PC and Windows take over everything. I had to permanently switch to Windows in 1991. My Mac NEVER crashed. My Windows FREQUENTLY crashed. Too bad… What could have been…


          It’s a happy (computer) day! My next notebook will likely be a MacBook with Windows XP running in a VM. Like many, I cannot totally give up Windows.

        • #3212478

          So very true

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to Back in 1985, my first computer was…

          So very true.

    • #3231620

      Mac vs Windows TCO

      by kirk8 ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Having lead IT environments with over 260,000 mixed desktops,
      as well as smaller, 10s of thousands of mixed desktop
      evironments, I can empirically state that per desktop support
      cost of OS X is a small fraction of the support cost of Windows.
      These costs range from user support, to back end infrastructure
      requirements, to virus/spyware protection, to initial set up and

      The only current impediment to using OS X in the workplace, is
      the plethora of Windows specific implementations, typically
      ActiveX that requires IE6. Virtually every desktop application on
      Windows has an equivalent OS X application, that is typically
      equal or better. Most of the”better” is that Mac users demand a
      much more stringent, consistent, and robust user interface, vs.
      the variety (and vagarity) of Windows.

      Microsoft has consistently performed EEE (Embrace, Extend,
      Extinguish) approaches to applications – the W3C web standards
      are a prime example – many sites are Windows specific, not
      standard. I fault technologies for ignoring sound business
      practice in adopting globally acceptable standards for uniform
      access, and attempt to leverage the monopoly of Windows to
      limit adoption of alternative platforms like the mature and user
      friendly OS X environment, or the robust performance of LINUX.

      • #3212515

        Well said

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Mac vs Windows TCO

        Very well put. Cleaqn and precise.

      • #3230787

        I agree

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to Mac vs Windows TCO

        with that completely, as that has been my experience as well, albeit
        on a much smaller scale.

    • #3231587

      Case Study in a Marketing Department

      by james.mccarthy9 ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      I can offer a personal experience. I run a marketing department in a large commercial real estate firm. Until 2004, my department was all Mac (roughly 8 machines at any given time) in an all-PC environment. Our corporate IT department would not support the Macs in any way so we had to maintain our machines (easy), our own network (not so easy) and a connection to the LAN using the Novell Client for Mac (easy, but not very reliable). The PC side of our company uses most of the functionality of Outlook (calendars, public folders, tasks, etc.) but my department could not connect to the Exchange server, so we basically just had email with Outlook Express and otherwise were in the dark. Apart from the hardware and software issues, there was a perception that we were not team players, partially because it was difficult to find Mac users who fit into the corporate environment. In 2005 we made the decision to convert to PC. The Mac user in me cringes as I type, but from a business standpoint, it was the right decision. We are using all of the same software (and more) without any of the compatibility issues. When something breaks, one of 3 IT people are on the case almost immediately and they take the offending machine with them, leaving a loaner in its place – no down time. I guess what I’m trying to say is that Macs will work in the corporate environment only when they are running Windows – but then what’s the point?

      • #3231510

        Everyone should read james.mccarthy’s excellent post

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Case Study in a Marketing Department

        Yours is an excellent post and really describes what is going on with the Mac and the Windows PC.

        Addressing your last point:

        “…Macs will work in the corporate environment only when they are running Windows – but then what’s the point?…”

        For most companies, I think the new Intel-based Mac will not change anything. But, for a department like yours, it might. The new Intel-based Mac gives a department that chooses to run Macs and some OS X applications the ability to also connect to the rest of the corporation and be more “normal”. You would still deal with some additional issues, just fewer than before.

        This mechanism applies even more to MacBook notebooks than it does to desktops. IT departments typically don’t fix notebooks. They just buy them and return them for service when they break. MacBooks are then about the same as regular PC notebooks in this respect.

      • #3212502

        what’s the point

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Case Study in a Marketing Department

        You are absolutely correct. Running Windows and its applications
        on a Mac is positively pointless. Your company would rather waste
        money supporting an OS system that consumes resources rather
        than providing machines that actually get the job done right the
        first time. Aside from writing proprietary/company tailored
        software (which you can do on a Mac) it seems that your company
        has money to burn.

        Have you asked for a raise lately?

    • #3212717

      Mac for business use

      by e3954 ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      I have been using two Macs for over a year now; one desk top,
      one laptop. I am a field sales manager and don’t get involved in
      networking, so I can’t comment on those aspects of Mac
      integration; however, I actually sold my Windows based laptop,
      finding it unnecessary (I have a MacBook with Boot Camp and
      Windows XP loaded, but don’t use it except for a software
      program for my scuba dive computer, which is not work related).
      At no time have I found the Macs wanting in the normal day-to-
      day work I do using MS Office for Mac. Once I got used to the
      slightly different OS, I actually found it easier to use and far less
      troublesome than any Windows machine I’ve ever used. The
      other huge bonus is no virus and other malware problems have
      yet been encountered, The only problem I could possibly foresee
      in using a Mac would be if you had to use some more
      specialized software in your work; I have had NO problems.

      • #3212453

        A Mac convert

        by drduffer ·

        In reply to Mac for business use

        I am a physician in the process of implementing an electronic
        medical record system that will run on WinXP (none of the
        systems that we really liked ran on the OS system- the nature of
        business) for our extremely busy, small group (single-specialty
        Urologic practice, 4 practice sites, 6 hospitals). I do not claim to
        know more than the IT pro’s who have worked on the various
        problems that I have caused over the years- the “dreaded blue
        screen of death” (whaddya mean I can’t use beta software?!?),
        viral attacks, spyware, malware & the like- but I do know that I
        have spent thousands in support. I tired of this, after many
        years, & decided (what the heck) to make the switch to the
        MacBook Pro w/Parallels. I was intrigued by the prospect of
        working with a more stable (or so claimed the many “Mac-
        addicts” I have chatted with over the years) that could run WinXP
        when I wanted it. The verdict, so far- no crashes , no issues, no
        While knowing that expecting a perfect system is a naive
        assumption, I do expect a decent return on my investment w/
        outstanding performance. So far, so good. Support from the
        Mac/Win IT guys/gals in town has been exceptional, painless &
        understanding. They have have made the “transition (actually,
        addition) seamless- I now find that I prefer the OS system over
        XP & run it whenever I can. I just wish that more medical/
        business applications ran on the OS system- maybe in time….
        Then, maybe, I would spend less time, & money, on antivral/
        anti-spyware/etc. software.
        My point: there is a place for the Mac for some of us & we are
        quite happy (…so far- ask me in another year or so- I reserve
        the right to change my mind).

        • #3166798

          What’s up Doc?

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to A Mac convert

          Couldn’t resist. There are a large number of programmers that
          would be happy to help you develop/customize software, for your
          Mac, that may help you manage your medical practise. All you have
          to do is interview them. Spell out your requirements and poof the
          trick – she is done.

          There are thousands of brilliant programmers on either side of this
          argument – you must interview them until you find the one that

        • #3166761


          by drduffer ·

          In reply to What’s up Doc?

          Thank you for your kind reply. I certainly will avail myself of the
          Mac support in the community- they have impressed me with their
          ability to easily work around my issues, so far.

      • #3230786

        Using more of the Mac for business

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to Mac for business use

        “The only problem I could possibly foresee in using a Mac would be
        if you had to use some more specialized software in your work;”

        Or you would have a ‘business use’ for WinXP.

    • #3212551

      Compare Apples to Apples

      by razz2 ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      I love this thread! The odd thing here is that everyone has valid
      point with a few exceptions. Any of the arguments works in a
      limited area. Davor had some great math etc. But here is the
      thing…Oh, I should mention I am typing this on a B&W Mac
      G3 350 running Jaguar.

      Windows is not just an OS. It is a business model. Companies are
      running servers and Desktops and Laptops and Fax solutions
      and Group Policy etc. These wil not disappear because of Macs.
      The question was not wil Macs replace the current network
      infrstructure. They won’t. The question was will they be more
      accepted. Yes they will.

      Licenses as mentioned are not an issue. If a user was given a
      Mac instead of a PC then the OS X comes with it and just as in a
      PC a Volumn License would be used. But, Access could be run in
      Windows while Mac specific tiltes under OS X. Use Boot Camp or

      One person mentioned that laptops are the best bet. Laptops are
      the likely choice because if they are a sales person they may not
      be on a domain. The domain machines such as workstations
      may need to work with Group Policy so the windows may win

      Drivers: Mac hardware is controlled so there is less driver issue
      unless you want that killer hardware, scanner, video card
      etc…still, most have drivers and if not there is a model that has
      similar specs for the mac and still fewer driver issues. Mac wins
      here now, but as mentioned by Davor the increase in any system
      causes more issues.

      Attack, Spyware, Virus: Macs kill PC here but there are Mac virus’
      and the like. It’s small social footprint is the reason. Taggers
      don’t hit where they don’t get the recognition, and neither do
      evil code writers. More Macs will = more virus issues, but the
      spyware and attacks is different. Are there holes in OS X? Yep
      and more Macs would cause more security issues but the OS is
      more secure by design I think.

      Cost: Man I hate the argument that PC’s are cheaper. It has been
      well established that a system of equal performance and spec is
      the same if not more. Macs are optimized systems. All the
      hardware together just works well. You can get PC workstations
      that are the same quality, but it costs. A $649 PC has cheaper
      parts, period. Yes, a $1000 PC will do the job as a business
      desktop and even a $649 PC would and does all over the world.
      But there is a difference in a desktop and a true workstation. A
      cad system is different then a system for an engineer etc. All
      systems should be purchased based on what they will be used
      for and the software they will run. If the system is for a GIS user
      then you need a strong workstation and for a standard office
      type user a $1000 PC is fine.Comparing that to the Mac at
      $2500 is dis-honest as they are not for the same purpose. It
      would be the same if I said I could get a 2 seater sports car for
      $18000 with the Toyota MR2 instead of buying that Farrari. Both
      are sports cars and both sit in traffic with 2 seats. Different
      reasons for their existance. The $2500 Mac is not suited for the
      job as a desktop. Buy the PC. As a workstation for Video, 3D
      Design, CAD, etc the Mac may be a better buy even cost wise. I
      could qoute you $3000 for an HP workstation no problem.

      I love Macs but the job for IT is what is best for the job and in
      any business there are many jobs with different requirements.
      Someone said that you don’t change word processor due to user
      preference and that is true. You should not either. Match the
      hardware and the software to the task at hand. The only reason I
      would not want a Mac in any of my clients business networks is
      the Group Policy settings I want to impose on the LAN. I do have
      Macs in clients but the LAN management becomes de-
      centralized. I would love a 3rd party to develop a tie in to AD
      Group Policy wher certain Mac settings could be controlled from
      a Windows AD tool. Or, for Apple to come out with a
      management tool to control PC like GP from an X-Serve.

      My personal choice will be a Mac because it fits my job need as
      well as my preference.


      • #3212473

        Excellent points

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Compare Apples to Apples

        You present excellent arguments. Each system to it’s specialized
        6 years ago I created a simple network based on Mac server
        software – 6.2 or something. The Macs talk to the PC’s, they
        share files, all are password protected and all can talk to
        computer based lathing and sculpting machines. All machines
        see every printer, MAC or PC, on the network and thus far no
        machine has experienced a virus. The system has been up and
        running 7/24/365 with one hard crash for nearly 6 years. I have
        performed , a maximum of 5 onsite service calls for this client.
        The prejudice should end but ingorance is bliss.

    • #3231359

      I hope not!

      by richard kennerly ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      I use a MacBook Pro. I love my laptop. My “experience” on it is
      so vastly superior to my windows machines I have stopped using
      my windows computers. I have a few apps that don’t have a Mac
      version so I run those on my Mac using a virtual machine (with
      parallels). The VM allows me to run all my apps on one machine
      without rebooting, I can even cut and paste between Mac and
      Windows apps. I hope that businesses never get hooked on
      Macs. My fear is that the Mac will become widely accepted in
      business because the virus writers would start targeting the Mac
      OS. At this point I would never check email on a windows
      machine due to worms, viruses and other nonsense. Using the
      Mac my work and critical files are much safer because so few
      viruses target Mac systems. I run virus software on my Mac.
      The Mac is no better than Windows in terms of saftey from virus
      attack, but being small it is not worth bothering to attack. That
      makes a big difference. If it becomes a widely used business
      system it will be hammered by viruses; I would rather the Mac
      system remain outside the business field so I don’t have as
      much of a headache from virus attacks.

    • #3277216

      Macs can’t print…

      by ibanezoo ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?

      Ironically, here in the printing industry, the supposed holy grail of graphics computers has a hell of a time printing to high end printers. Half of the drivers don’t work properly (fault of manufacturers) and it seems every time there is a point update for OSX they completely change the printer management interface and F the whole thing up again.

      I don’t even want to bring up the whole thing about Macs and font management…

      We used to love them, now we hate them.

      • #3166805

        Mac’s can’t print

        by chief bottle washer ·

        In reply to Macs can’t print…

        So you are saying that Macs running OS X can’t print because Apple
        changes the Printer control software? Could it be that the printer
        manufacturers are behind on releasing an update – similar to what
        happens on a PC workstation?

        Give us all a break. Any OS upgrade requires the manufacturer to
        step up to the plate and update their stuff! Just admit to the fact
        that you like waering your comfortable old shoes and move on!

        • #3166667

          Moving on

          by chief bottle washer ·

          In reply to Mac’s can’t print

          This knucklehead should spell check before posting. Tee Hee

        • #3166603

          I’m with Iban…

          by the-mac-daddy ·

          In reply to Mac’s can’t print

          I have also had significant problems printing from my macs (G5 and PBG4). Not only are the drivers for windows far superior, and have additional features, but I find it so much easier to connect through a PC.

          Listen, I am a mac user, only use windows at work because I have to. But I have heard all the “It just works” slogans, and it’s simply not true. I would love to have IP printing made much easier on the mac; until then, you gotta know what you’re doing to connect to networked printers.

          As much as I hate all the software running in my system tray (I remove as much as I can w/out sacrificing functionality), installing an HP printer is much easier in windows. And when you do get it running on the mac, you’re lucky to have any driver features.

          Blame it on the manufacturer, maybe. But recall that commercial (I’m a mac, I’m a PC) where the Japanese girl comes out and the mac can talk her language? I don’t think so. Digital camera maybe, but you have better luck with printers on windows.

        • #3229838


          by ibanezoo ·

          In reply to I’m with Iban…

          Maybe they work ok with peoples’ cheezy home inkjets, but not production printers.

        • #3229840


          by ibanezoo ·

          In reply to Mac’s can’t print

          Reading comprehension isn’t your strong point I take it… re-read my original post. Its ok, I forgive you.

          I can even make our Linux boxes print easier than OSX machines!

    • #3277172


      by willy macwindows ·

      In reply to Will Mac Desktop/Laptops be accepted in Business field?


      • #3229433

        yes, unless microsoft puts an end to it all, as it did to netscape

        by john ·

        In reply to No

        1. entry level mac mini $599 (duo core $799 with writiable dvd superdrive)
        you can use your existing monitor
        (dvi to vga adapter provided)
        you can use your existing mouse (usb or bluetooth)
        you can use your existing keyboard (usb or bluetooth)

        2. in business, most people only use the pc for
        – word processing
        – spreadsheet
        – presentation
        – internet access:
        – e-mail
        – web browsing
        – database access (use web based access)
        no problem

        3. bonuses
        great user interface
        great graphics
        great for photos (i-photo)
        great for music (i-tunes)
        great looks

        4. why need pci slot
        most peripherals already use usb and firewire
        plenty of plug-and-play third party peripherals (and getgets) available

        5. connectivity
        bluetooth, wi-fi (built in) tcp/ip
        it connects to windows network

        6. you can install and run windows (not emulation) on the same machine(but why bother?)

        7. cons
        – less dependent on it professionals (bad news, this is a tech site after all; spend more money for enduser satisfaction and less money on technical support staff??)
        – autoCAD does not run on the mac os
        (unless you install windows)
        – mac os does not run windows client server applications (unless you install windows)
        – no user serviceabl parts

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