Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

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As MS roles out new versions of Windows I have been thinking ‘how can these guys sell a new interface, complicate the functionality and require people to double and triple the hardware requirements so they can keep people on board with MS products?’ The biggest problem I have is MS forcing people to upgrade by stopping the support for older products. So if you want a secure/stable OS then you need to follow MS with every version of Windows they put out, even when their systems are inherently insecure.

To start this discussion off I would like to briefly describe what I have noticed about different versions of Windows and hope people will add to my list or agree that most new versions of Windows have been useless and superficial.

Windows 9x = Useless and if Linux was where it is now back then we would all be using it today.

Windows 2000 = the entire reason I didn?t jump ship and go Linux all the way. Thank you for Windows 2000.
Pros: Stable-just about eliminated the BSOD. Better organized by implementing a directory structure to distinguish between different user files helped backing up and saving important files.
Cons: Still allows most programs to require admin rights to run.

Windows XP = useless improvements and a new flashy interface that doubled our hardware requirements.
Pros: Better USB support and SP2.
Cons: Still allows most programs to require admin rights to run. Doubled hardware requirements from Win2000. Runs wizards by default for every configuration. No ?Classic Mode? to be rid of flashy interface and configuration wizards.

Windows Vista = useless improvements by its release and didn?t make good on any projected improvements except strict driver signing in 64-bit edition.
Pros: Directory layout improved (shorter directory names too). Got rid of the ?My . . .? naming convention from early Windows daze. Cool but function-less Aero interface. Navigation with the Windows Explorer address bar. Even better USB support and new flashy icons (useless!). Broke most of the programs that require admin rights hence forcing programmers to write better programs that won?t make our OS vulnerable to all sorts of attacks and users who download ?free? software.
Cons: Doubled and tripled the hardware requirements again. Over complicated networking-Pick a zone: Home, Work or Public (Why?? Just firewall the connection like WinXP SP2)? Complicated the network browser even further (Just give us back the Network Neighborhood that worked in Win98) The UAC is not needed for every little thing I do especially if I am logged in as admin. The useless, flashy login page. Windows sidebar is a useless resource hog and shouldn?t be default (how about get rid of useless sidebar and install Telnet by default).

Those are the obvious changes that have been made over the years that I have consistently noticed. Most of the changes have been for no reason other than to impress teenagers. Keep in mind I am operating from a admin prospective and want functional efficiency and would like MS to work on functionality and less on wizard-like processes that are meant to cater to end-users/noobs/lamers.

My main contention is Windows 2000 was a great OS (add msconfig) and XP SP2 was a good improvement but put the benefits of XP SP2 on Windows 2000 because business doesn?t need the jelly icons. It doesn?t make Excel add columns faster.

Making the interface more attractive only appeals to people who don?t understand or concern themselves with efficiency. A similar statement can be made about the gaming industry as well which is why I can?t find a Wii anywhere!

Topic

Disagree

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Making the interface more attractive only appeals to people who don?t understand or concern themselves with efficiency.

OK so you can work just voltages or with 001010001001001000100010010010010010010010011101001001001001001001001001001001001010010000101001 1001010010010 1010010101010101011001…. can you?

The interface was made more attractive to turn voltages to 00101001001 to something more useful for people to use.

Why do you want a Wii if you have this attitude – guess you don’t really understand efficiency after all.

However – on an MS server, why cant I unload the GUI???
I will be able to (so it has been said , somewhere) on the next version of the MS Server.

….

In reply to Disagree

Can you just type out the word “Binary” instead of a useless phrase of (?”I$?$?I$?)??*?

Yes, some people can read Binary, and quite quickly. Is it useful? probably not to you, but it was to them in the past.

010000100110100101101110011000010111001001111001

Thats as bad as

In reply to ….

There was a programming language think its Cobal used for the CPA programs of long ago ! It was the reason the big worry about 2000 as it did not allow 4 places for the year in the original code only two . . Actually computers talk binary now any way all the time as there are only 2 ways a switch can be is off or on !
Jee that kinda dates me being that old almost like punch cards . .

Missing the point much?

In reply to Disagree

If you think I said the GUI needs to go away you should point out where I said that. I didn’t even come close to implying that the GUI concept is useless or I would have focused more on a Linux environment.

The main point that you didn’t read was that Windows 2000 is Microsoft’s last significant and effective improvement and they have mostly stopped supporting it. If you see a need to go from Window2000 to Windows XP to Vista then talk about what are the functional improvements. If you didn’t read what I wrote clearly the first time you might not have much constructive to say and you might just end up getting flamed anyway so be careful.

Windows 2000 forever, Vista never

In reply to Missing the point much?

This is exactly what I have been saying for a loooooong time. The ONLY reason my firm has migrated workstations to WinXP from W2K was to be able to throw the “3GB switch” for the CAD terminals (need more RAM for all the 3-D assembly models). Non-CAD computers still run W2K, not needing any of the useless BS that comes along with WinXP. And don’t get me started on the effing Wireless Zero Configuration Service in WinXP…..

W2K forever? Forever getting hacked!

In reply to Windows 2000 forever, Vista never

Run just about any version of MetaSploit against a W2K box and you end up with local admin rights within two or three minutes.

Not much to rave about, now is it?

Better than the more recent BLOATWARE from M$

In reply to W2K forever? Forever getting hacked!

Couldn’t care less about some supposed exploit that MIGHT exist. WinXP and Vista are pure unadulterated bloatware crapola, both with a kiddified interface intended for g(L)amers. If forced to migrate, it’ll be to Windows Server 2003, the only professional-level OS currently available from M$. There’s a reason it still uses the Classic W2K GUI- there is no desire/need for a Loonie Tune (ooooh, the PRETTY colors….) interface in the business world. BTW, did you know that WinXPx64 is actually based on W2KIII, not WinXP? Even M$ wasn’t about to try to revive that dead horse with a heart transplant….

I was wondering about that

In reply to Better than the more recent BLOATWARE from M$

Some of the stuff I seen about it made me wonder if it was based on Win 2K and not a re make of XP . . As XP was a sorta ME thing patched and fixed til ? ? ?

Not if you got a good firewall

In reply to W2K forever? Forever getting hacked!

I even had Microsoft people trying to hack my firewall or thats where the back trace went to
went right up their lines to their front door . . since I have gone to Broad Band I do not get hackers trying to hack me its like having a router out there in front of me !

easy to crash WIN2000

In reply to Windows 2000 forever, Vista never

All you got to do is at boot press the powerkey until off, then pwr back on.If the blue screen of death does not show . keep doing pwr on off…I killed a few

Wow!

In reply to easy to crash WIN2000

You’re a freakin genius.

Why would you want to do that ?

In reply to easy to crash WIN2000

It seems a strange thing to do . . Why would you do that ? It is beyond beleif that you would want to do that . .

That’s nuthin’

In reply to easy to crash WIN2000

This one time, I crashed an XP system, just by opening up the case and unplugging the hard drive! Talk about an unstable piece of crap of an OS! 😉

Happened to Me Too

In reply to That’s nuthin’

But I took out one of the RAM chips and replaced it with another.

It’s not like I had a lot of programs open at the time. I only had my IE window open so that I could follow the instructions on-line on how to replace RAM.

🙂

I am hoping you had it turned off !

In reply to That’s nuthin’

I am hoping you DID have it turned off right ?
And it still crashed when you turned it on ?
Must have had lots of files over on the other hard drive or a lot of programs there ( I got several installed on the second drive so the files are there ) but it does not shut down windows if I do not have it plugged in . .

Jesus, Jackie

In reply to I am hoping you had it turned off !

Don’t know a joke when one smacks you in the face do ya? 🙂

Ok Flame Boy

In reply to Missing the point much?

Why just focus on functionality? Although there is more functionality in XP, how about talking about security?

You obviously wrote this post with a biased opinion to start with, we should just ignore you.

Give us a break, Constructive?

In reply to Missing the point much?

First off, your rant is full of falsehoods and outright wrong information.

2nd, Consturctive? WTF, What part of your inaccurate rant was constructive?

If you are going to post BS then be prepared to be blasted back into BBS days.

Gee,that means

In reply to Disagree

they caught up to Netware and *nix.

These OS’s have been able to do this for many years,but the point has been to dumb down the UI at the expense of speed ,security and stability.

Vista is a bloated slow ,pig of an OS.

When compared to XP,it boots slower and in roughly 17 out of 24 benchmarks,was up to 25% slower than XP on the same HW platform

Hardware marches on

In reply to Gee,that means

The same can be said of just about any OS advance. Before comparing timings and benchmarks, it’s reasonable to do that using the hardware for XP that was available when XP was developed and comparing it to Vista running on hardware that’s available at this time.
I’m not sure what the OS of 2012 will be like, but I guarantee you that if you compare it to Vista on hardware that’s available FIVE years after the release of Vista, that new OS will be a “bloated slow pig of an OS.”

That said, I’m keeping my XP installations because the advances in Vista don’t come anywhere near justifying the price that MS is charging for it. But it’s not because it’s a “bloated pig.” I remember some old cigarette-smoking twit in a computer store remarking about Windows 3.1 in 1991 — “Yeah, that’s a resource hog, isn’t it?”

to some extent true.

In reply to Disagree

Vista is an improvement that enhances security…but still I think the requiremt of trippled hardware is the point where I feel windows is bad… doing nothing i find near about 600 mb out of my 1.5 gb ram is eaten by vista…MS could have thought of a OS that would require less ram so that we can use it for our own development .

Anyway good article.

Enhances Security ???

In reply to to some extent true.

I tell people “The bad guy shot you 20 times last time…this time, he shot you only 10. Isn’t that better now?”

M$ makes the most unsecurable products I have ever dealt with (in about 20 years of IT)

That’s what M$ Marketing says!!!

In reply to Enhances Security ???

So it must be true!

Till a better OS…

In reply to Enhances Security ???

Till the better OS arrives I think MS has the credit to make PC revolution possible. 80 out of hundred are in Windows…

You are totally wrong here

In reply to Till a better OS…

If there is 1 single company to blame it’s IBM who took a small failing Software Business and turned them into a monster.

If you look at what where PC’s before the IBM PC hit the streets you’ll find that everyone but M$ was a successful Company. M$ was failing badly and issuing Stock Options in Lieu of Salary to it’s few staff. That is how those few got so rich as when IBM approached M$ they couldn’t afford to let them slip through their fingers.

Then when MS was on a much more stable financial footing they turned around and bit off the hand that feed them as they saw IBM Costing them way too much money at the original deal that had been structured to save M$ from Bankruptcy.

If you want to blame anyone place the blame where it belongs right at IBM’s feet as they made everything in the current PC possible and M$ into what it is today.

Col

Disagree on this

In reply to You are totally wrong here

IBM had no way of knowing that they were awakening the BEAST (your #’s went up again too, stop it!).
At the time that you referred to, this was a good descision for IBM. However, I beleive that at a later time would have been more appropriate to blame IBM. Look at the whole OS2 thing. MS was already becoming an issue, and instead of going elsewhere to write IBM’s new proprietary OS, they went to MS….bad descision, very bad.

As I was working at IBM at the time though

In reply to Disagree on this

Admittedly not on the Play Toy side of the business it was only a natural progression for IBM to get M$ to write the code for OS2 as they already had a working relationship with M$.

If IBM had never of approached M$ for cheap software to put on their PC’s M$ would have died a natural death long before they had a chance to become the monster that they are today they would have been nothing more but another failed Start Up Company which came along much latter with the . COM Bubble. So many people had missed out on M$ Shares that they just had to grab whatever was on offer as they all believed that what was being offered to them had the potential to become the next M$ so anything vaguely related to PC’s where the stock to buy.

However since then M$ Stock has been devalued by a considerable amount with no signs of it improving in the short term at the very least.

What many people fail to realise is that IBM is still a big monster with massive cash flow and they have not been relegated to the back waters but are still the giant that they always where and are constantly at the Bleeding Edge of Development on the Big Iron which things currently seem to be heading back to.

Col

I was one of those OS2 People

In reply to Disagree on this

I was really piss off when IBM stopped upgrading it . . I had HPFS for files and was much better than windows ever was or could be and a ga-zillion times more secure . . OS2 was the bankers choice for security till IBM stopped supporting it . . And since windows has taken over banks they have become more a place hackers like to visit . .

Too Bad OS2 Didn’t really catch on.

In reply to Disagree on this

It really is too bad that OS2 didn’t catch on. I have found OS2 to be rock solid. The only time I have ever seen OS2 crash was because of a hardware failure (some dumbass spilling liquid on the system)

Yeah thats right

In reply to You are totally wrong here

I remember everything had to be IBM compatible
When software/hardware came out And Windows is based on IBM’s Dos 7.2 or some thing like that says so right in the help file way back when . . And then IBM did not keep their O/S 2 up dated past the Warp 4 version . . It WAS the last GOOD O/S made since then its been a pain. I had OLD Linux Mandrake 8.1 for a long while as my other system then went to 9.2 as it was the up date ( was to be best one out there )

Apple did it first

In reply to Till a better OS…

Apple Atari Commodore Did it all beefore Microsoft
The fact that microsoft was a minor software
house at the time is easy to forget
Microsoft software on these computers was often larger and contained bugs
Nothing has changed
Ibm Made the pc before Ms dos
Windows vs Linux Same thing ms larger and full of bugs

What’s Your Point?

In reply to Apple did it first

His basic premise is that MS made the PC revolution happen.

I have to agree.

Sure, lots of people and lots of companies did a lot of the leg work in order for it to happen, however, MS finally put all the pieces together.

And not all the pieces are technical.

But MS was the first company to essentially put a PC in almost every home (at least in the US and other more economically advanced countries).

I would equate MS more along the lines of Henry Ford. Mass production, cheaper prices, standards, consistent quality, etc.

Because of MS, and a lot of other factors, PC’s became a commodity that everyone could afford instead of a high tech piece of gadgetry that only a few could afford.

Can do better

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Microsoft can do better
They could be the first company
To produce an os with out bugs
Now that would be something
But very unlikely

I fail to see why microsoft
can not offer a choice of user interface
Eg win98 me xp And so on
As this is a small part of windows
And I mean it in 1 simple action
not 10 or more settings
Also if people know the user interface they are useing they can tell the person on the other end of the phone who is trying to help them
A standard interface makes this easy
Changing it makes it hard
Now heres one for you I heard that microsoft
payed apple for the rights for the first windows os
If you sell someone something that has faults you should have to fix all of the faults before you can say its finished
Or is it allright to sell things with faults in them
I am not talking about improvements
Apple etc did the gui interface before microsoft is this wrong ?????
Microsoft was a minor software house is this wrong ?????
Did you ever use microsoft software on those computers
Ibm Made the pc before Ms dos is this wrong ????????????
Windows vs Linux Same thing ms larger and full of bugs
The bigger the os the more Chance for bugs
And why load everything just incase
this is the os not the apps

Re: Steve

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Your an idiot!

You are even arguing with yourself.

Not too long ago, you posted that no software is perfect essentially because it is made by humans.

Now, and I quote you, you say “They could be the first company to produce an OS without bugs”.

I guess employees at MS aren’t human?

Anyways, what gives? Stop typing in limerick form, we’re not making poems or songs here and start using some punctuation and proper capitalization.

You’re probably using Firefox right now since you hate MS so much…there are spell checkers made for that you know?

Re Can do better

In reply to What’s Your Point?

I use Ie6 sp2
I do not hate Microsoft
I use Microsoft products

“They could be the first company to produce an OS without bugs”

Was a wish and some hope

I was tired
Sorry about the mistacks

Apple make computers
Microsoft makes software
They are not in the same market on this

Windows and linux not the same
Windows costs $$

Microsoft has no competition
So Windows vista can only be compared to windows xp (Last one of this type os)
The end of xp is the only option
for Microsoft see above

I do like microsoft products(some anyway)

I just think competition would make them better or would give us a better choice

Ok Steve

In reply to What’s Your Point?

If you’re using IE 6.0, try downloading and using IE Spell. It’s free and a decent spell checker for forms and such like this.

Apple does make computers but they also make an OS (if they don’t then who the heck makes OSX, Tiger, etc?). So they are in the same market as MS in that regard.

Windows and Linux are pretty much the same. One cost money and one doesn’t. Big deal, they are both OS’s.

Microsoft has plenty of competition. There’s Linux, BSD, Apple’s OS, etc. It’s just that MS dominates the market…but there is competition.

Email Apotheon or Jacqui or a few others here on TR and tell them Linux isn’t competition for Windows and see what happens. Let me know the outcome of that.

I would agree with your last statement though. I have no problems with “harassing” MS in order to get the best product possible.

However, what happens on TR all too much isn’t keeping MS on the edge, it’s flat out FUD and slanderous.

You’re right. I don’t want to live in a world with no choice. I just think right now, Windows is a better choice (most of the time).

Notice I said most of the time. I personally pick the right tool for the right job at the right time.

I actually like IIS 6.0 but in years past IIS was so poor that many probably rightfully so choose a LAMP stack instead.

Again, pick the right tool for the job.

Compatible OS

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Just because they run on the the same cpu
Don’t make them compatible
This is one of the problems with os
Not all programs for 98 work on XP and so on
But text files can be read on most
This limits the time that programs can be used
Spelling is not the issue here
Try mobile phone txt spelling
The linux $$ comment was more to do with its free so what?
Still not Compatible OS
Apple have an interest in how the computers that they make perform
This cannot be said for Microsoft
The PS v Xbox fight is more fun to watch
Spin Doctors can be so funny

yes. Microsoft can be seen as a revolutionary company

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Yes Rickk,
I have no special interest either in MS or MAC …but the fact is always a fact. MS made it happen…and is its special place in PC world.

Others may create better bug less high speed OS, but MS will be remembered forever at least for this. After all even while sitting inside a Boeing…I would have been thought of Right brothers !

MS is to the computer

In reply to What’s Your Point?

As Freud is to Psychology. You used the Ford/Mass production comparison, and thats acurate as well. No matter how much you hate em, you have to give MS credit for what they acheived. So MS was not the Originator of the PC or of Dos, what they did was take all the pieces and put them together in a way people liked. They marketed their product like mad geniuses, and so created the dynamic we have today. Apple had their chance. they made different decisions.

Isaak, nice post

In reply to What’s Your Point?

In the beginning, MS took Interational Business Machine’s electronic calculator and freed it for use by the masses. That can’t be denied and too the early MS that was still hungry and competitive; cheers and thank you, that fancy calculator and keyboard has been a life long tinker toy for this humble geek.

More… MS is to the Computer

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Let’s face it, even if MS had a inferior product, what they did, are doing and will continue to do to the industry benefits us all.

Companies come and go and I’m sure MS will too. Probably along the lines of decreased significance one day like IBM and eventually down the techno toilet.

But that day is still so far off that most in these forums are predicting a fate that isn’t likely in our lifetime.

I’ve been engaged in these debates for almost 8 years now. And in that 8 years, Linux usage has climbed from what 1% to 3%.

At that rate, 8 years from now what can we expect? 10% 15% 20%. Still, hardly dethroning MS. Yes, a serious competitor, but here’s my words of advice for open source like Linux:

Get your sh1t together and figure out a better way (notice I didn’t say a better product although that is happening everyday) or else your future is bleak.

And, I would prefer someone giving MS a run for their money. To me, that forces MS to put out a better product.

But right now, Linux isn’t it or at least there yet. All that’s going on right now is a bunch of people stroking themselves.

Yup, MS was the catalyst that put a PC in every home faster than the rest

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Don’t take that the rong way, this is a topic we agree on. MS broke the IBM monopoly and the home computer market is better for it as a whole. If it wasn’t MS, it would have eventually been someone else but the debate over weather it would have been Apple sooner or someone else later is irrelivent now.

MS had a huge impact on early personal computing. Apple wouldn’t open up the hardware/software combination so MS licensed the software to all other hardware vendors and the rest is on Wikipiedia and the history books.

Now Linux and other OS are getting closer than “not there yet” but one can’t rationally claim that there isn’t flaws in the approach choosen by Windows, Linux or any othe OS architecture.

This was a particularily nice bit;
”
Sure, lots of people and lots of companies did a lot of the leg work in order for it to happen, however, MS finally put all the pieces together.

And not all the pieces are technical.
”

– The US Gov early warning systems started the GUI and the light pen

– Xerox made the GUI OS for mini computers (I think the mouse came from them but it may have been Apples wooden mouse too)

– Apple sqeezed the GUI OS into a PC

– MS chose the licenseing model and got a PC into every home.

With all those baby steps, MS still combined the software with marketing and the right business model for the time.

If it wasn’t MS, someone else would have done it eventually. Maybe we’d all be locked into the more closed systems from Apple or a license agreement with IBM. Who knows, someone would have eventually braught it to the masses but MS did it first and the importance of that can’t be overlooked.

Let’s hope the next OS Platform (being whatever) can evenutally dethrone MS or force it to focuss on product quality over profit margins. (that’s still an optimistic point supporting MS; they can improve and budget is surely not an issue)

I’d hazard the opinion that FOSS has developed an OS faster than the competition (ten to fifteen years vs MS at twnety-five to thirty years) but it’s still competing against 90% of the market share and the reality of that can’t be denied any more than the rate at which it’s maturing.

In the end, FOSS or another alternative will eithe replace MS or force it too produce a better product. Either outcome is in the better interests of the consumer and end users.

Yes I know

In reply to Apple did it first

ALL software had to be IBM compatable ! Way back when I was using Atari Computers and writing programs in GW Basic and IBM Dos for the freeware group of people . . Went from Atari to IBM XT was a whopping 10 megahertz speed with 640 megs plus extra board with 4 rows of it filled with 9 pin chips was faster then my sisters 286 Radio Shack with less then 532 megs of memory . . I put a different hard drive in her computer when the other one died got a ISA IDE board and ribbon and she ran it for another few years ! Its where I really learned about computer guts and how to get them running plus programming them. . SELF TAUGHT since there were no big schools then in computers

Old School!!

In reply to Yes I know

I’m in same boat as you. When I was learing about computers on my own there were no schools or training arround for them. I was actually hired by the School District where I went to school as their IT person. LOL going to school in Grade 8 and working for the School Board as the Tech. It sure did get me out of classes quite a few times 😉

MS popularized it but your bang on

In reply to Apple did it first

MS blatantly took what Apple had developed (hm.. Control Panel.. System Preferences.. hm..) and ran with it. The legal case is still debated here and there.

Thank MS for publicising the home computer but first, thank Apple for hiring the Xerox developers and porting the Xerox GUI OS to a PC; remembering that Xerox build an OS for a mini computer where Apple had to squeeze a mini’s OS into a PC box of hardware.

Both performed very important roles at the time though the debate of MS theft of the Apple OS rages on.

Where did Windows come from?

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

A good question
Where did MS Dos come from?
The people who know the answer to these questions
Are the ones who know how wonderfull MS really is
(Not really)

Simple, really

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

MSDOS is a bastardisation of QDOS, aka Quick and Dirty Operating System. Goes back to the days when CP/M and QDOS were competitors to MSDOS.

The Windows OS concept was ripped off by MS from Xerox PARC.

Google is your friend. But in this case, I speak from the advantage of having LIVED the history.

I wonder what apple would say

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

About the origins of windows?
Also if it’s on the internet must be true then

Well Ghost

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

You completely missed the FACT that I PERSONALLY recall that from my memory.

YOU may need to Google the facts. I lived them.

A small fraction of the history of geekdom

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

Microsoft or “Micro-Soft” (as it where at the time) baught Dos or CP/M OS from a humble developer for something like 10,000$. Bill wrote the boot loader for the OS while in route to the client he planned to sell it too; I believe it was actually too a meeting with IBM for an OS demonstration and licensing discussions.

Xerox had a graphic OS (unheard of and truly mind blowing) they had been working on but it only ran on Mini systems; those boxes a little smaller than mainframes but not remotely close to a PC. The project was discontinued; Xerox’s loss.

Apple hired many of the Xerox programmers from the graphic OS project and baught the rights to the source code. They then sqeezed the OS meant for a mini into a PC. With the amount of code rewritten and fact that they’d baught the rights; it wasn’t a piracy issue.

Micro-Soft (Bill and Steve), visited Apple when MS was still a small OS and barely bigger application developer. After seeing the Apple (the Lisa was it?) and it’s graphic OS in action, Bill’s response was along the lines of “I want it.” Not “that’s great, wish we’d written it first” but “I want it.” Steve Jobs was foolish enough to say; “hey, you develop applications, sure, take a machine and OS home with you to test third party apps on.”

Good for MS, bad for Apple. The trial ended favouring MS based on the judges opinion that thieft of the OS was the only way for any other company too compete in the OS market. (So says the documentaries, I’m only offering other’s information on this point; if you have issues, check Pirates of Silicon Valley or the general history of computers.)

That’s leaving out the parallel history of free software and all the rest of the source code outside the Xerox/Apple/MS progression. While free software has been available since computer geekdom took over from the phone phreaks, it’s outside the scope of this comment.

(Edited after reading the Tiger/Ghost exchagne)

Ghost; “if it’s on the internet, it must be true”.. and in the computer history books, and in the US legal case history. Give “Pirates of Silicon Valley” a viewing; it’s entertainment but consider it a starting point for further reading. 😉

I’ve lived only the history of computing since msDos 6.0 but made a point of reading up on everything that came before me and since. It’s good drama if nothing else.

Now, I did think that MS baught CP/M to compete and IBM’s briefly offered QDos at first but I could be wrong on that one. I distantly remember msDos and QDos being available early on but that’s close to the start of my hands on experience. I know it was a version of a Dos but accept that I may not have the right four character brand correct.

Re: GhostBrowser

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

Who cares what Apple would say. They didn’t make it happen now did they?

Really

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

Dos 5.00 it was for me
Thank you for confirming some of what I all ready know
As history shows Microsoft policy hasn?t changed much
The PC as it is today is not because of MS
It is because of IBM & the other manufacturers
Who designed and produced the cheap parts for them
The low cost of manufacture is the sole reason the PC dominates the market
Open architecture is what I am talking about
Microsoft was simply the one chosen to write the OS
Good luck?
Yes
They seem to have a lot of it
To say a software company is responsible is simply BS

If you are going to argue try not to agree with the person you are arguing with

rickk get lost

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

You obviously no nothing about the history of the pc and stop riding on other peoples shoulders
What was the word?
TROLL
Ugly thing that lives under a bridge

Actually this is something that I’m at a loss to understand

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

Everyone seems to want to give M$ the kudos for making the PC so available when it was actually IBM who approached a small nearly failed company who where attempting to produce applications for the many different DOS Environments as a cheap alternative to the Industry Standard applications of the day and where constantly lurching from nearly bankrupt day to day with the inability to pay staff salaries or wages regularly on time for some cheap software.

IBM wanted the complete package but M$ didn’t make an OS so they sent the IBM Legal Guys to Gary Killain at DR DOS to seal the deal up as M$ didn’t have anything that was even close to being suitable for what was being asked for by IBM.

IBM on the other hand wanted a cheap entrance into the PC Market so they went with Open Architecture so that the parts where freely available, cheap in comparison to something developed in a closed shop and available now and not in 3 to 5 years time so they could go to market [b]NOW[/b] without any up front development costs.

The IBM Legal people hit DR DOS when Garry was out fishing or something similar and insisted to his wife that she sign a confidentiality agreement before they would even tell her who they where from so she threw them out and reported them as possible Anti American Activity who where attempting to do no good to the Authorities. If that happened to day the Police, FBI and God only knows who else whould have jumped on them so fast that they would never have got as far as M$’s offices where they proceeded to cry to Bill Gates about the way that they where treated.

Bill realising that he was on the verge of bankruptcy and absolutely needing this deal to work for him bought a copy of DOS made by one of Suns developers who had brought a copy of the DR DOS Manual and written the code from their directions and which he was currently then selling off at something like $20.00 a hit as it was a second rate copy of DR DOS at the time. The figure that M$ supposedly paid for this varies but everyone seems to agree that M$ only paid a up front pittance and if the deal was accepted the payments would arrive latter. This is where things get fuzzy as there seems to be no compelling evidence that M$ ever completed the sale and Garry Killain was suing M$ for IP Theft. Unfortunately he died before the case could be finished and as they say the rest is all history.

IBM by going Open Architecture was the one single entity who is responsible for making what is today known as the PC so popular and if they hadn’t have chosen the Open Source/Architecture build there would be no mass produced computers today like there are and it would have been a slug out match between Apple and IBM for Market Domination which Apple probably would have won.

But as anyone could buy parts that where effectively the same as IBM’s they began to start making small batches of computers buy the Software from M$ and call these computers [b]IBM Clones![/b] I just see it as funny that M$ who now jealously guards their IP as if their entire business depended upon it made it to where they are today because of Open Architecture which at the time was effectively what the Open Source Movement became a few years latter in a break away movement from Unix.

M$ never did a single thing to help make computers freely available to the mass market the entire current situation revolves around Intel who developed the IC and IBM who took advantage of Intel’s development work on an open architecture environment to make a pile on money with bugger all outlay and they took M$ along for the ride and in the time that they where together turned M$ from an [b]Also Ran[/b] into something that looked much better than what it actually was. Even when IBM and M$ broke up M$ wasn’t that well off but at least they where no longer attempting to make wage payments every month but they had not cracked the business market with their second rate Software that they where selling. M$ big step forward was Office where they managed to integrate all of their Second Rate Products into one application that could share data and this was the single step that made Office worth looking at by business of the time as prior to that there was no easy way to share data between the different applications vendors that where the Industry Standard.

Once M$ introduced Office and had a sort of working GUI that was when they started to get business sales which at the time where what was driving PC Sales not the home market where computers of any kind where nothing more than an expensive novelty.

As an example a 386 33 DX with 1 MEG of RAM loaded with DOS and Windows 3 was selling for 16K AU when new and that was as late as 1988 but within 3 years the cost of hardware had dropped dramatically so that you could buy the same thing again another IBM Clone with maybe a 486 100 MHZ CPU for about 2K AU and a whopping 100 MEG HDD.

If IBM had of chosen some other software company to supply them with M$ would have folded into a bankrupt startup organisation that they really where. And the funny thing is that M$’s rise to Market Domination forced the Stock Market to sit up and take notice so when the Dot Com bubble started the Stock Exchange went crazy buying shares in companies that had no ability to make any money but because so many people had missed out on cheap M$ stock every company that had anything to do with computers suddenly had the possibility to be another M$ so everyone had to get in on the ground floor and hope for the best. Unfortunately the people concerned didn’t understand that most of these companies would go bust they just where looking at M$’s share price and thinking about how to spend all the money that they made from this little Startup company who was going to send the share price to at the very least the same levels of M$ shares when at their height. Since then M$ Shares have been constantly dropping in price and are now about where they should be when looked at a yearly price and not a day to day price that affects the stock market and drives normally sane people insane and spend lots of money today because they think that something is going to happen and push up the price of an individual stock because of a good return/report that day.

Col

pay no attention to my pet rikky-Troll

In reply to MS popularized it but your bang on

I disagreed with him once so now he fallows me from comment to comment hoping to get his ego stroked. He’s kind of like a cute puppy I accidentily fed once and now can’t go anywhere without.

How did he put it in his own cutesywootsy yips and barks:

“half of the time I’m just egging them on watching them get their panties in an uproar.”

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=219285&messageID=2227211

I sometimes wonder

In reply to Disagree

Hey you might also be running at 2 teraflops per last I read about IBM’s new toys to be
Thats in the range of “The Terminator” and then AI will take over and run this side of the computers and forget the GUI’s will not need them then . .

Reluctantly

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

I am afraid that this discussion will turn out to be another MS vs Linux flame out, but, being optimistic, i will contribute my feelings in regards to this issue.

I personally will not be following the MS bandwagon for Vista this time because i see no reason for it. The problem i have with Microsoft is with their vision of IT. It seems to them that they are IT and what ever they think is good automatically is.

On vacation once, i met two people who worked for MS and i was surprised at how “brainwash” their attitude was towards their employer. They seem to think they could do no wrong and that if you disagree, you simply didn’t understand the concept or you did not know what you were talking about.

I once wanted to make a suggestion to MS regarding their Internet Explorer. I contacted customer service and asked them where can i send my suggestion. I was politely but firmly answered “MS does not take suggestions from the public”. How can they honestly say to our faces: “Our customers have asked us to…”

Because of that attitude, i don’t think MS will change unless they fail as a business at some point. The only way that will happen, is if the customer truly say to MS; “Enough, we are not following you anymore” and truly do not purchase MS products. But that is a risky move that will not bring any capital to companies. Businesses are well known to not take risks unless there is a ROI at the end. Businesses have no morality, just capital.

I agree that there is a lot that Vista and its predecessors have left to be desired. But as long as MS keeps their present attitude, there is nothing that will change.

Now as far as Linux is concerned, they are guilty of some of the same crime, just not as evident though. Linux people don’t seem to be able to create a decent GUI to save their lives. Their command structure is based on 1970s geekoid administrators that lived in their own worlds. I cannot say this enough; CHANGE THE COMMANDS TO SOMETHING THAT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD BY THE COMMON MAN. Df just doesn’t scream disk drive management to me.

The GUI is important because it bridges the vision of cold, hard, emotionless machine that computers are to something that is softer, warmer, friendlier and that people will want to interact with. Bottom line, “Its the people stupid!” and as long as Linux will not listen to that, they will only be second best.

My next machine will be an Apple. They have their faults too, i know. But they are the only ones offering right now the best of both worlds.

…just my 2? worth.

Thanks for responding

In reply to Reluctantly

If MS wasn’t such a great marketing machine the Windows days might be over with the short-comings in Vista.

This is a naive opinion but a perfect computing environment is OS X on the desktop, Linux servers and Microsoft productivity software. e.g. MS Office Suite. But not Office for Mac. Those floating Windows have to go bye-bye.

Although MS has some good servers they are still built with the same vulnerabilities as the desktop OSes. Good thing users don’t actually use them.

???

In reply to Thanks for responding

Prove the statement about their server software having the same vulnerabilities as their desktop OS’s. Specificially, Windows Server 2003…

chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

In reply to Reluctantly

I’m not a Microsoft basher, so you wont see it. I won’t follow the vista bandwagon till Microsoft stops supporting XP on the computer I just bought last year. That?s how I switched to XP by the way. They stopped supporting 98se.

With regard to the gui and Linux and apple. Apple’s gui is nothing but GNU, or window’s x which has been around forever in Linux UNIX. That’s all it is. Not a nock, just a fact. kde is liked by a lot of people because it is more often updated and looks more like windows. Justin just posted a blog on PC-BSD which I think shows what I’m trying to say. http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=217451 If you check it out, you will see how userfriendly it has become. There are screen shots in his article. Me, I?m the 1970’s geek. Came from a main frame, like command line, keep your gui. I want the raw power that Linux UNIX offers because they don’t waist cpu cycles on a pretty interface. But, that is just me and I understand it’s not everyone else.

98se to xp, I think the biggest improvement’s were user accounts and networking. But, that is because xp was built on 2000. Just my oppinion.

The only thing I really disagreed with here was Zen’s post about Linux UNIX gui’s. They are there, and there are several flavors that offer user friendly versions of them. So, I disagree respectfully with his comment on that.

Until business?s change their primary desktop, Microsoft has no worries. It’s simple. Your normal user learns what he knows from his job with regards to computers. That heavily influence?s his buying for home use.

Dan

Thank you Droolin

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

For being polite in your response. Too many people tend to flame others when they disagree.

I hope you did not take offense at the “Geekoid” stereotype i used. I did not mean anything bad by it.

I would personally love to find a good GUI for Linux that would feel as good as the one from Microsoft or Apple, but so far, they still look more like “machine” interface than “user” interface. I don’t know if you get the difference I’m trying to convey.

There is also the fact that the GUI must come with the OS, one cannot be without the other if you want to cater to the general population. Apple may be using GNU, but they made it in a way that is appealing to the user. That makes it attractive to the general public.

Finally, you have to have viable commercial software development for that OS. Without commercial appeal, you won’t get software. Without software, you won’t get general adoption of the OS.

no offense taken, I am a geek. Lol, ask my daughter

In reply to Thank you Droolin

I am a believer that each os has it’s strength’s and weakness?. I use FreeBSD for my file server, and I would never think of using anything else. I also use Windows as my desktop, and right now really wouldn’t think of using anything else.

FreeBSD kicked butt and took names when it was running on an old 600 MHz. It now just sits back and spits on you since I?ve upgraded that machine a 1.4 athalon with a gig of memory. No gui, just straight command line. But, it?s a server not a desktop. I flat out don’t want a gui on a server. Windows desktop, ehhhhh. That?s back to my original statement of. If businesses were to use something else, the population would follow. I use and have used windows as a desktop at work from the start. I need to be familiar and proficient with it to be good at my job. I don’t want to switch to something else and lose that edge. If they switched to a different desktop at work, I would probably follow suit in a matter of time.

;o), have a good one. No offense was taken.

Dan

Just a thought to try…

In reply to Thank you Droolin

I have been recently playing with Linux a lot because I refuse to move to Vista anytime soon. It is just too much eye candy for me, without extra benefits. My security is handled by and large by hardware devices and so the overarching security features are more like bloatware to me (though I certainly see the point for less secured systems!). Anyway, getting back to the point, I have tried several different Linux distributions, and if you are looking for one as easy (in some ways easier) to use as Windows, much of the same functionality, and a hidden backend for the user, you should look at Ubuntu and its kin. The way they built it, the GUI appears as the OS, not unlike Apple, while still being separated if you find it unappealing later. Additionally, they provide at least 4 different varients to choose from. Lastly, it is based on Debian’s excellent update and installer utility that makes keeping all your software up to date (not just the OS) a breeze. Personally, I am partial to a Ubuntu redistribution out of Ireland called Mint Linux. It is essentially Ubuntu with some customized settings that make it a bit more user friendly for the way I compute, but as most Linux users have learned and lived with – It is personal taste with regard to which distribution you choose.

my 2 cents (or less)!

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

Ok, I get what zen37 is saying. Linux, although the desktop is windows like, it is not as refined and looks a bit rougher. I cannot describe it better than that. The Win desktop looks smoother and more appealing.
The other thing is that trying to figure out what things do. Yes, they are marked in the start menu (or whatever the distro calls it) by category, but to find items you need to interpret the k(name) to what it does. However, many distros are doing a better job of it now.

I think

In reply to my 2 cents (or less)!

we need to differentiate between the look of a desktop and program names. I think going so far as to say the kde default desktop is looking a little dated, but the buntu flavors are putting on nice dekstops, even FC6 is a nice looking theme. The thing to remember about the linux desktop, is that if you dont like it, change it. You can make it look as close to either OSX, WinXP/Vista, heck even RISC OS that many people would not be able to tell untill they start using the menu. Honestly, the linux aglx/beryl desktop is one of the most customizable and smoothest desktops out there. Now, installer routines and program names are another matter altogether =\

I installed it and there are

In reply to I think

There are a lot of different desk tops / back grounds for KDE in Linux 2007 mandriva ( 6 CD’s ) and tons of stuff there I even made it with different back grounds per desk top so they would know what desk top they were on

I am not a basher just have little use

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

I wish some of the things I have to run were or had drivers in Linux ( any flavor ) I have 3 things which are seen but I can NOT get running yet in LINUX when I do its bye bye windows . .
I ran O/S 2 Warp 4 till IBM decided not to support it and dropped it I was using windows stuff inside it for a while . . But then Windows decided to come out with windows 98 SE and I went to it as the few versions of Linux were nice but did not run everything I needed to run yet still does not . . So I am stuck with Win 2K Pro till I buy a book and make a driver for 3 things in Linux

I like Vista

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

I have to ask how many of you folks that are saying Vista is bad, have actually installed, and tried using it? I’ve installed Vista about 12 times, experimenting, and just getting to know it. I honestly have to say I think it’s great. I’m not on any “bandwagon” so you can stop right there. The thing is, most of us like new things. New car, new iPod, new Digital camera etc. Is any of it “needed”? No. We buy things because they are new, and we like new gadgets. Vista is the same thing to me. I like it because it’s new and refreshing. I like the new GUI look because I never cared for XP’s “toon town” GUI.
The other reason I ask is, Vista can run fast. All you have to do is turn off all the pretty crap. Yes, it’s all on by default, but you DO have the power to change it, so stop complaining. It only requires 3x the hardware to do all the pretty stuff. If you turn it all off, it will run with 512 mb of ram, etc. Another tidbit of advice, turn of Indexing. That speeds things up a bunch.

As far as Linux goes, I like Ubuntu. But I have to agree with what someone else said here. “Make the commands more logical”.

I agree with you on being constructive

In reply to I like Vista

I’m not saying Vista is bad but it isn’t an OS that I’d buy at this time as Vista was a rush to market OS and needs time to be tuned up with updates. Personally, I can’t get past the terms and conditions of the license agreement but that’s a personal choice. I have to point out that many of Linux commands are almost identical to MS DOS which evolved to Vista. The Linux GUI has many faces as it does distro’s and I think Mac’s Leopard OSX will be a very serious OS to look at in future. Vista will evolve into something a lot better than it is now, it has to or it will crash permanently. I’d seriously wait until the SP1 comes out for Vista and if XP works well enough for you, maybe wait until the next version of Windows as MS has told us they will no longer go beyond 5 years to produce the next version of Windows. We don’t have to upgrade to every version of Windows and sometimes it’s a good thing we don’t as Windows ME will always be there to remind us of what MS does to make money.

Well as one of the Idiots who brought

In reply to I like Vista

Volume License of Vista Enterprise I’ve had a little bit of experience with it from the release date till now and while it’s excellent as a Play Console it’s not yet ready for a Domain where Drives are permanently shared and things like that.

I’m not overly happy with M$ ideas of only being able to use Digitally Signed Hardware from SP1 onward and Digitally signed Software on the next release of Vista which if M$ can stick to projected release dates will be sometime in 2011.

As the Quad Cores are becoming much more popular now I’m using Linux more and more often but what I do find interesting is that the Old Unix Commands that I used to use back when I worked with Main Frames are quite acceptable to Window Server Products and Desktops. When I get those nasty jobs the Old Habits just kick in and I tend to drop into the old habits to solve problems. I’ve yet to find a single Unix Command Line that doesn’t work with Windows and when I’m running in Windows I have a Short Cut to the CLI on the desktop just where it should be as there are things that you can do with the CLI that are currently just not possible with the GUI that so many people think compromises a Computer now days.

I love Windows to bits but I do get a laugh when I hear people criticise the Unix/Linux CLI saying that it needs to be improved when they are using the exact same thing on their Windows Boxes.

As for Windows XP has so far been about the best combining the ease of use of the 9X versions with the better performance of the NT Platform but there are still many things that where promised when NT was new that have yet to arrive. This I put down to poor programing skills at Redmond or bad business practises rather than anything else.

But on the other hand IE6 works a treat on Debian and confuses the hell out of so many people that I’m amazed that I’m not constantly being demanded to install the same copy of Windows that’s on my NB because it’s unbreakable in everyones eyes.

Col

Your post is really informative, amusing – good read

In reply to Well as one of the Idiots who brought

I’ve supported MS since DOS and I still have an occasional use for it whenever I’m using a non graphical interface or programs that require one. I like DOS, it doesn’t argue, it won’t complain, no compatibility or complicated issues coming out of some security application.
I loved Windows when I didn’t have to get into the verification and activation procedures as I really believe MS could find a better way of protecting their software without taking up my time. I bought it, I installed it, I shouldn’t have to verify time and time again that it’s valid nor should I have to go through the telephone procedure to get it reactivated. I mean 42 digits and an East Indian guy who I honestly cannot understand at times which forces me to call back and hope I get somebody with a little less accent. MS has done this to limit the cost of their support to a minimum which takes precedence over providing you with local telephone support. Assuming they did provide local support, it still doesn’t make their activation and certification procedures acceptable. They could find a secure online method similar to bank transactions to protect everyone including their software if they were to improvise and adjust it to work for them. If they won’t change, I will and have as there is none of this nonsense with any other OS. Xandros 4.01 has issues but they are ones I can live with, it allows me to install on as many personal computers as I own as well as 1 business pc. The OS comes with free updatable Antivirus, Adware and File Protection. There are a lot of additional reasons I like it but anyone can download and try it out. The difference is it’s easy to uninstall whereas Vista is like an arc weld, easy to put on, hard to take off

Business Change = Training

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

I agree that “Until business?s change their primary desktop, Microsoft has no worries. ”

However, as I have learned over the years most businesses want their employees to be at their most productive. They want an employee to start work on a monday without having to go through training and learn new applications (industry specific aside.)

What most comapnies dont want is every employee to go through a two or three day training course on how to use the operating system and slowly get used to it when they can just use ‘windows’ and get on with their job.

I proposed the possibility of Open Office as an alternative to occasional users to reduce MSOffice licensing – but then the change=training aspect arose and that idea was discarded.

Business Change = Training – yes!

In reply to Business Change = Training

Matt – right on. I’m at a non-profit. It took me 2.5 years to upgrade 20 desktop hardware + server hardware to run XP,Office 2003, & Exchange 2003. Then, Vista hit! At present, maybe 4 people even know that there is a help button on every toolbar ( whats a toolbar?). yes, I am an enabler, but that’s another story……Not just a training issue, but hardware, too. Thanks for listening – Happy Monday!

I agree in part but disagree with some parts

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

I’ve evolved from the MS DOS vs IBM era and have supported every version of Windows up to XP. MS has evolved it’s OS to Vista which has made some happy, some mad. The fact is all OS’s have and will continue to evolve or will be no longer. I have bought full distros of Linux as I’m not looking for a free ride but you know and I know that Linux has never had the support from software or hardware manufacturer’s with respect to applications or drivers. If Linux had the same support in these areas as Windows, then Windows wouldn’t have as large a following. I agree, they have applied strong arm tactics with OEM preloaded versions as well as others. The only reasons I don’t have Vista is I can’t agree to it’s terms and conditions of it’s license but more importantly, I feel it was rushed to market and the fixes have just begun so I’d wait until the SP1 update or wait until the next version of Windows. With regards to Mac, I wouldn’t begin to suggest it’s another version of Linux as the OS’s are too far apart in their differences. The graphical power of Linux vs Mac would be silly to compare as the hardware and software support, drivers are just not there for linux which is why the number of games available for linux are minimal. I’m not against any OS including Linux as I’m running Xandros Business Edition 3.0 as well as the Professional 4.01 which I like but they do have downsides too. I honestly believe and I leave room for being wrong, that the Mac Leopard OSX will be a very serious, no nonsense OS with very powerful graphical tools that may well show some real WOW. I’m leaving myself open to seeing what it has to offer and I’m assuming it won’t be a cheap spin off as Windows ME was with little or nothing to offer. I honestly think one needs to look with an open mind to find what they want but try it before you buy it. All OS’s with the exception of Mac will allow you to and even with Mac you can always go to a dealer or lease a Mac to try before you buy.

Mac clarification

In reply to I agree in part but disagree with some parts

I believe osX is actually BSD Unix with an Apple X window manager layered overtop of it.

The base has the stability of BSD while the window manager and user applications GUI design from Apple. They’ve managed to combine there proprietary icing ontop of an Open Source cake mix.

Linux driver issues are completely seporate from osX. Also, since they keep Apple systems in such a small collection of products, they only need to develop drivers for Apple choosen hardware. It’s not like Linux/BSD trying to support whatever the user throws at it or Windows with half baked drivers from every hardware manufacturer known.

That’s only to clarify the details of osX though, not a comparison of the other OS available.

I Agree Except

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

About the over used by many statement about wasted CPU cycles for the GUI.

Probably the most common “problem” nowadays is under use of CPU cycles.

Whether that be a desktop or especially servers, most CPU’s sit around waiting for something to do.

It’s a fact. CPU’s are so fast nowadays, that the vast majority of the time they sit there doing nothing.

Hence the popularity of VM’s and trying to get more out of each CPU.

Mac GUI isn’t GNU, but Linux GUI is comparable …

In reply to chuckle, ok… my 2 cents

While I see the point you are trying to make (Mac OS X is a Unix, being based on BSD) I do have to make a clarification:

The MAC OS X GUI (known as Aqua) is not GNU, and XFree86, which Mac OS X’s implementation of X11 is based on, isn’t GNU either.

To be GNU software the software’s license must grant you “the freedom to copy and change the software, even to sell copies.” (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) and I know that Apple does not allow this with their Aqua GUI. It must also be GPL compatible, and if you look at the list of licenses on the GNU site (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#X11License) you will see that they list XFree86 as GPL-Incompatible.

I do agree however with what you have said about the current state of Linux/UNIX GUI’s … if anyone has used Ubuntu/Kubuntu 6.10 or later, they’d understand that Linux is not just for servers any more.

The fact that its a live-cd allowing you to boot into the OS and then launch the installation from within the GUI is something Microsoft could learn alot from.

Fedora also comes with a nice pre-installed GUI.

Couple a KDE with Beryl (Linux’s answer to Apple’s Quartz) and you have a Linux installation that rival’s Mac OS X for useability, leaves it for dead in terms of pricing, and with the current state of WINE, provides you with almost all the software you’ve been using on your Windows machine.

And if the GUI wasn’t reason enough, both the Fedora and Ubuntu distros come with software update systems that allow you to patch and update all the software installed on the computer (not just the OS as Windows Update does) as well as install any of the applications available.

As far as efficiency goes, I’ve got an old system that wouldn’t run any version of Windows past 98SE, but it runs Ubuntu nicely. Gamers would be happy to know that Windows games running under WINE often run better and slightly faster.

Really, for the home user, there is no reason to swap to Linux now. For the corporate businesses, there may be a few issues they might have to address in order to move over to Linux.

The only groups of people couldn’t move to Linux are the Graphic Artists that need Adobe’s Creative Suite, Corel Painter, or Adobe’s Macromedia Studio, and the Accountants that use MYOB and Quicken and other financial packages.
3D Artists might not be able to move to Linux, depending on whether the applications on Linux match Lightwave, Maya, 3DS Max, Cinema 4D, and Poser.
Note, almost all of these applications are available on Mac OS X, so 3D Artists and Graphic Artists need not stay with Windows.

Thing is, most users stay with Windows because it’s what came with their system. They’ve paid for it already, so they may as well use it.

There are Linux version of

In reply to Mac GUI isn’t GNU, but Linux GUI is comparable …

There are linux versions of Auto Cad and a few other Really graphic intensive programs for doing things check out http://www.linuxcentral.com
for Graphic programs . .

Thank you for clarifying about GNU and Mac

In reply to Mac GUI isn’t GNU, but Linux GUI is comparable …

I assumed it was GNU, and one should never assume. Especially when posting about a topic.

Again, thanks.

Dan

Cryptic Commands? In Linux??

In reply to Reluctantly

Come on, Zen. How can you say that to the average computer user “grep” is not as obvious as “find”, or that “ls” is not as clear as “dir”? Surely “cp” is easier to recognize and remember than “copy”, and “mv” makes more sense to rename a file than “ren”, and “ex” and “vi” are certainly more intuitively-named commands than “edit”!

a suspect sarcasm but your spot on

In reply to Cryptic Commands? In Linux??

It’s similar but perhaps not exactly the same as the Windows GUI names vs *nix GUI names debate. It all comes down too a name being just a name. Both systems have program names that are blatantly obvious and names that are completely unrelated to function.

I personally like the Unix commands. Their being different after growing up on Dos was part of there charm. They can be cryptic but in general, are shorter commands (switches aside that is) too type. I even had a win32 build of the basic Unix commands so I had my LS and CP for Dos/Windows until a recent drive crash.

You are right but please consider this

In reply to Reluctantly

MS Windows is produced by a single company as is Mac but Linux has many different companies producing different versions. So when you say they are guilty of the same crimes, it’s not quite the same thing. I’ve been a Windows user since MS DOS and was quite happy about MS being the winner in the IBM / MS Dos era. MS has grown to be a very large corporation which wants to attain as much as it can by whatever means, legally or illegally. Now to emphasize my point, how many times has MS settled in court and out of court ? Let’s assume MS want to do something that infringes on another company’s patent. They go ahead, use it, distribute it, and make a lot of money. They get sued, go through the motions then either settle out of court or in court. The truth is if you were to do this and be sued, pay a settlement of 10 million, would you do it if you made a profit of 22 million ? Keep in mind you have several billion to play with and lawyers, court actions are tax deductible. It becomes a game, the opposing lawyers probably buy each other lunch and golf together. I’ve been using Xandros Business Edition 3.0 and Xandros Professional 4.01 which I like as the license is extremely flexible and allows multiple installations.
It does have downsides and I knew what they were before I bought the full versions but the upsides made it one of my Linux choices.
I like Ubuntu but it isn’t as complete as it will be later down the line. SuSe, I bought and used but just couldn’t get used to it as it wasn’t a personal favourite. I continue to use XP when I have to but I no longer download updates as it required me to agree to it’s new license and I just wasn’t up to it. I’m very interested in the Mac Leopard OSX coming out later this year as I’m keeping my options open by looking beyond Windows.

Install Telnet was a joke

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

right?

The UAC is needed for every little thing, due to the way it was implemented. Maybe they’ll sort that out.
The network zones is to allow big holes in ‘stupid’ user’s defenses so MS can keep all the client side drivel they’ve invested in.

Well not really :)

In reply to Install Telnet was a joke

I think it depends on which applications support remote connectivity. For internet devices especially routers, Telnet is great but once again it is a command line. Im sure telnet was meant for something else than a command line, but it never reached that point. : /

It does have one or two failings

In reply to Well not really :)

on the security front, and given the thrust of the original post, seemed to have done himself up the arse for all to see.

Let’s all jump on the Anti-MS bandwagon.

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Seriously, you could at least try to sound like you knew what you’re talking about.

“Windows 9x = Useless and if Linux was where it is now back then we would all be using it today.”

ROFL … Thanks for the laugh I needed it. I still can’t get over just how dumb that statement is! A bit like saying if Skoda were where they are now back when Ford released the model T we’d all be driving Skoda’s.

As for most of the comments on XP and Vista it’s clear you’ve never been a serious user of either.

As a developer and 10hrs a day user of Windows since 95 I have to say all new versions (OK excluding ME) have been improvements.

Vista is no exception. It’s by far the easiest to set up and use of all.(OK excluding the well intended but annoying UAC rights warning messages. :-))

I really don’t understand this persistent claim of 2 or 3 time the hardware requirement. On my 4 year old DELL I doubled my memory and bought a cheap budget graphics card(~$150 total) to switch from XPSP2 to Vista Ultimate running smoothly with full Aero.

For once networking is really easy. Either it just works or running the connection problem analyser points you directly to the problem and in most cases can fix it.

On Vista – UAC you know you can turn these warnings off if you want! MS just can’t win can they? Everyone cries “insecure” and points to Mac and Linux requiring admin acceptance. So MS listens and adds it and the cry changes to “interference”.

On XP – No classic mode? Just how many seconds did you spend looking at XP?

Constructive criticism should advance technology.

In reply to Let’s all jump on the Anti-MS bandwagon.

As I see it, there is a place for Microsoft and Linux. Neither needs to rule the IT world. It may be more difficult for Microsoft, since they are entirely a profit driven engine. But that doesn’t inherently make them bad or wrong. They do a lot of research too.

The debate did however begin by questioning the value of Microsoft upgrades, and this really is worth a meaningful debate. inter alia, the consideration of value for money.

In my view, a progressive development rather than a complete replacement should be favourable, unless there is something fundamental that needs to be replaced such as the file system structure itself etc. I suspect even MS realise in hindsight that Vista could have been XP Update (Surely they could have packaged that and sold it, albeit at lower cost, but who knows the greater take up may have been equally financially rewarding?) and maybe that Vista could then have been the up and coming Vienna.

The danger of replacing the whole OS each time, is the temptation to add unneeded frills to justify the change. MS’s two page newspaper spread about the Vista WOW factor, included very little, or nothing on the (sparse) page that isn’t already available or possible with XP.

One of the things I dislike with the Microsoft approach is the tendency to change terminology, or invent new terms where adequate ones exist already, seemingly just for the sake of it. And don’t reply with ‘patents issues’. That cannot explain why bat became cmd for example.

Another effect, would seem to be the constant revision of menu systems, with the inherent need to offer ‘classic’ views. If there is real improvement to be had then fine, but it seems to me the change is frequently cosmetic rather than practical. To me this is emphasised when some of microsoft’s own instructions on their tech support site tell you to switch control panel to classic mode to enable you to access a certain function.

Finally, my pet hate. Wizards! Don’t get me wrong, they do have a place for a novice user , or to do certain things quickly, but IMHO, a wizard should always have an equivalent GUI that shows you what precisely you are changing (Maybe they do, but from my experience these are fragmented and not obvious).

As for Linux GUIs, I use Fedora a lot, and I like the desktop. The GUIs are pretty good and continually improving. I would not say they are perfect by any means, but the thing I do like is that if you are not sure what the GUI has done, the configuration file is never far away for inspection. Maybe some folk don’t like that approach, but it seems to me that Microsoft’s attempt to insulate the average user from the techy bits in the OS have a danger of obscuring the important configuration details from the techy user at the same time. (Or maybe there is a commercial element too in hiding some of the implementation details?).

As Linux may try to ape some of what Microsoft does, there could be a danger that the GUIs start to tend towards becoming Wizards. Personaly I hope not. One thing is for sure, the Open Source aspect of Linux will always have the advantage for technical support, that if you really need to understand what is going on under the bonnet, you can delve as deeply as you wish.

Lets continue to debate the technical issues and try to maintain emotional detachment, it is a human thing to defend what we believe, but if we are right in our thinking then chances are right will prevail eventually – lol.

Best Regards
tonypm

Your the people I’ll make a good living off

In reply to Let’s all jump on the Anti-MS bandwagon.

I am a software developer doing real applications on Linux and Windows. I have been writing software for 30 years now, and the current situation reminds me of a certain corporation’s IT department telling me that Novell would never work – they only new big blue – Unix scared them – they po-pooed PCs as toys. Most people who do not agree that MS is useless are the ones who know now better, never learned anything about real world development, and are scared they will be found out to be as useless as the OS they use. Same as when big blue and their minions had to go.

Hey you sound like the person

In reply to Your the people I’ll make a good living off

I have 2 Items I would like to get running in Linux . . And then I would leave Windows so far behind me they would not even see my shadow . .
Right now I am getting a book from Linux central on how to make drivers . . I have a Verizon USB720 broadband modem which Linux see’s but does not have a driver for it so it just sits there and also got a ADS Tech DVD Express which I use so much it should have wore out by now . .

Some of what you say is true, some isn’t

In reply to Let’s all jump on the Anti-MS bandwagon.

I’m thinking everyone is entitled to their opinion and I try hard to respect it regardless of intent or lack of constructive input. Windows of whatever version was not useless and that includes Vista. I wouldn’t try to belittle anyone here by throwing my profession into the ring to add any weight to the argument as we all know how many things were written and not everything including Windows ME was something to brag on. Now, with respect to Vista, there are machines out there with Vista ready, Vista capable on them but when it comes down to it, Vista may not have been ready for them. Vista is still being updated weekly because it was a rush to market OS that was and still isn’t ready. It may not be ready until the SP1 becomes available later this year. This in itself is an assumption as Vista was a year later as it was and still wasn’t ready. Vista can be easy to install but it really comes down to what you are installing it on as Vista can and does abort if there is something in the PC it doesn’t see as compatible. Your opinion on what’s cheap is questionable and may be cheap if you are comparing it to a high end 8800 board but for many $ 150 is not cheap. This can be a lot more when you add all the Antivirus, Adware, OneCare and other software required to secure the already secure OS.
MS could have included OneCare to show good faith by showing they were going to do everything in their power to make Vista the most secure OS ever but they chose to offer it for $ 49/yr additional. Vista does require more memory as it is really doesn’t run well on less than 1 gb of memory, this is not a bash, just a fact. Let’s not compare Linux and Mac to Vista as there are no serious comparisons, the support factors are too one sided, both in software and hardware. You tend to imply that MS can’t win, well they have been winning the market share since MS DOS. There is a place for constructive criticism and you should be more open to it as this is what makes things evolve to be better. There is no perfect OS and I strongly doubt you would be able to suggest there is one but I’m not saying there won’t be one someday. Just as a matter of fact, the installation of Xandros Professional 4.01 is easier to install than XP or Vista as it doesn’t require you to install additional hardware drivers with a 3rd party CD. I had to install an additional Raid driver as well as mouse driver and others via a cdrom but I never had to do that with the installation of Xandros. Xandros also has very liberal licensing which allows me to install it on as many personal pc’s that I own including 1 business machine. It comes with it’s own Antivirus, Adware and File Protection software which has free ongoing updates. It comes with a long list of free software so I chose Xandros over Vista. This was not because Xandros was better, it was because I could no longer agree to Vista’s terms and conditions in it’s license agreement. Since you are a developer, how about you develop a program that would allow MS to validate their software without taking up my time and expense. I can’t count how many times I’ve talked to some guy in India who, at times, I had no idea as to what he was saying. Why, because I had to reactivate Windows via a long 42 digit process which I could well live without. Seriously, why can’t MS use an online verification system similar to that used in secure banking to verify and validate their software ? I’m certain some improvising would eliminate this ridiculous procedure. Like it or not, MS has not made Windows a perfect OS yet and it really appears it has a lot to get right before it is.

Online Activation

In reply to Some of what you say is true, some isn’t

I’m no fan of MS and use XP just because it came with the machine, but regarding your question (why can’t MS use an online verification system similar to that used in secure banking to verify and validate their software ?), well it’s already there and you can activate XP online. That’s what I’ve always done and never had to call M$.

That ONLINE stuff is a joke !

In reply to Online Activation

I had to reinstall XP on several machines as the person did not have a Internet connection . . kinda hard to do a online with no way to get there ( there are about 7 or 8 copies of same windows XP ) out there for that reason ! Since they will never go on line and do not want to .

All Good Points

In reply to Let’s all jump on the Anti-MS bandwagon.

And I get tired off everyone tell the world how insecure Windows is.

It takes about 3 brain cells to properly secure Windows.

I’d venture to say that the average home user is now more able to secure Windows having a broad choice of consumer grade products available, software and hardware, than say a wholesale switch to Linux or Apple where they’d know nothing about and open gaping holes.

How can any os

In reply to All Good Points

How can any os with faults (bugs) be secure
How can people trust an os with faults
Or any software for that matter
As software companys seem unable to solve this problem
Microsoft seems to be the worst of them all
Please count the number of Security Updates for Windows Xp and get back to us

OK…

In reply to How can any os

One thought for you.

Let’s assume (some will disagree) that Windows is the most attacked OS because it is the most used OS.

Let’s also assume it is the most patched OS because it’s the most attacked OS.

It would then follow that Windows has had the most number of flaws discovered and then patched.

We have more knowledge of and have patched more problems with Windows than any other OS. The same cannot be said of many other OS’s.

Take another lesser used OS. There is not nearly as good an understanding of its security footprint because it isn’t attacked as often.

I’d rather use an OS that has been battle tested for many years (including BSD by the way) than an OS like Apple (just an example) that hasn’t been beaten on as hard.

For all you know, there could be many more bugs in other OS’s but until their usage increases, we may never know.

Take another example. The browser Firefox. 1-2 years ago it was the poster child for safe and secure browsing. Probably still safer than IE in some regards.

However, look at the number of vulnerabilities being discovered with it everyday now. Lo and behold, as usage increased, so did the incentive for hackers to attack it.

I almost guarantee you, if any OS had the market share of Windows, it’d be attacked, hacked, and cracked just as much.

Sure, the inherit design architecture of Linux is supposedly better than Windows. So, even if Linux had the Windows 80-90% market share and attacking it would be harder, it still would be done.

Typical reward/risk analysis. Hackers would go after it like flies on sh1t.

I read latley that apple had a gob of patches

In reply to OK…

The last I read there was over 25 patches for Apple maybe 2 or 3 days ago . . Sounds like some attention is getting turned to Apple now !

Apple needs the attention

In reply to I read latley that apple had a gob of patches

Since Windows Vista is getting shunned by a portion of it’s users and it will show us if they have a product worthy of being called secure.

In how many weeks ?

In reply to How can any os

I wish I had that much time to count the patches . . I understand Apple put out 25 patches just a few days ago . . Sounds like they are developing MS’s habits . .I hope not !
I do good keeping up with Win 2K pro fixes and delete the ones for IE or any other windows programs as I do not use them . . I have been using 3rd party stuff for ever on windows just NEVER trusted their stuff . . They should stick to the O/S and let third party people make programs to fit in ! That way it [b]WOULD[/b] have been a good O/S !

Ouch! You Should Patch IE

In reply to In how many weeks ?

Whether you use it or not.

It is so intregrated into the OS, not patching it, whether you use it or not, is a bad policy.

Good one

In reply to Let’s all jump on the Anti-MS bandwagon.

I agree with you on Vista. I loaded it on my computer and have been pleased with it. The big mistake I made at first was installing it as an upgrade. Always install clean. I love the interface. It is a little like jumping into a new car model after sitting in an older model. The ride is just more enjoyable.

Expensive

In reply to Good one

I hope that is an expensive new car
Because it?s a lot of money just for a new look
Windows vista is more like mutton dressed up like lamb

driver signing and add-ons a no brainer.

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

The “strict requirement” for driver signing in the 64 bit version will cause trouble for me.
Since that days of DOS I have always used non manufacturers approved drivers. If it works its legal has been my way since STRETCH & Fortran 2 days in the early 60s.
And to make almost any MS software do what I want it to do almost always entrails downloading unapproved s/w. Ie to open/edit .pdf files in Word, extract tables into Excel or OOo spreadhseet needs non approved s/w.
In fact since the days of DOS there have always been non approved software programs, mostly free that have extended MS windows useability and office, specifically forbidden under VISTA eula.
Will I stop using such free goodies, will I heck!
Sent using UBUNTU Linux, using a PC that wouldn’t run XP and only ran 98se VERY SLOWLY.

Ubuntu Linux on Old PC?

In reply to driver signing and add-ons a no brainer.

Must be an old version of Ubuntu. 6.06 will not install, much less run, on anything with less than 256MB memory. And since Win98SE ran very well on even an old Pentium 233MHz with 64MB RAM (I did for years), then you must be running a very, VERY old version of Ubuntu to run on less than that.

maybe Xubuntu?

In reply to Ubuntu Linux on Old PC?

It’s all the Ubuntu goodness with Xcfe desktop manager so it’s nice and light on older hardware. They may also be using a limited install of Ubuntu with only what they need.

Those are my two guesses anyhow.

On a side note, Mandriva with KDE runs nicely on my pent 300mhz with less than 128meg ram. I should really test Xubuntu on it though or either Puppy or Damn Small distrobutions since they’re meant for limited resources.

Ubuntu Edgy Eft 6.10 on Gway PII 300Mhz 128MB off live CD for Desktop

In reply to Ubuntu Linux on Old PC?

Ubuntu Live 6.10 “Edgy Eft” Desktop
Gateway PII 300Mhz 128Mb
Dual Boot with XP

To install from the live CD I had to go to 192Mb of memory and kill the fancy GUI. After Ubuntu was installed I returned the extra 64Mb back to the machine I borrowed it from and am running nicely in the 128Mb

1) Make sure to use a partitioning software to make free space on the drive for the Ubuntu to install to, unless you are going to wipe the entire current contents of the hard drive. Use the auto partion when you get to that point. I could not get the manual partioning in Ubuntu to work. It always locked up.
2) Put the CDROM in the drive and boot.
3) Once at the Ubuntu boot screen move to “Safe Graphical Mode”
4) Press F6 to get to the startup parameters and flags, use the left or right arrow keys to move to the end and remove the “Splash” option completely. Then delete the “quiet” and replace it with “verbose”.
5) Wait for the system to boot fully and get into Gnome,(25 minutes on mine!)
6) Then kill the GUI and start a limited GUI with a terminal window.
Ctrl+ALT+F1 (to switch to tty1 terminal)
Hit enter to get prompt (You should see the Ubuntu command prompt on a black screen at this point, note your system will probably still be running slow.)
Type “Sudo pgrep gdm”
You will get an output with two PID #s something like:
5098
5074
of course the numbers are varied and most likely yours will not match.
Type “sudo kill ” for each of the two numbers, this will kill the gdm (or Gnome Display Manager).
Type “xinit” this will start a very basic x with a terminal and there is no need to run any more programs.
Now your ready to start the install. Your Live boot should run somewhat better now that you don’t have the fairly bulky display manager running.
7) Type “sudo ubiquity” at the prompt and wait for the install to appear. Insert your information for the first 4 steps. (Time zones, user names etc.)
8) Now your at a possible trouble point. I am going to recommend that you either:
a) erase the entire disk (if you backed up your data) and let Ubuntu do the partitioning, (You can always resize partitions later to get the partition table how you want it.) Let the installer run, follow the wizard and read through the output the program gives you to make sure its correct.
b) Auto install to the largest availble space. If you partioned like I suggested in step 1.
You can try a manual partitioning, and may have luck but my PC constantly froze.

With any luck you will reboot into a freshly installed Ubuntu desktop on your old hardware with minimal difficulty.

This guide based on info generously supplied by Magic-Ninja on the Ubuntu help site.

My primary beef with MS…

In reply to driver signing and add-ons a no brainer.

is idealogical. If I pay 200-300 (or more) for an operating system disk, I think I should be able to use it on each of my computers (it’s not like I have hundreds or thousands of them), or at the very least [as with Office] on a desktop and a laptop. And I should be able to reinstall it as often as I need to due to system changes, crashes, whatever. Vista has imposed significnat limits in this regard, though I could see it coming with XP and product activation. WGA and DRM bother me also. As to WGA, I run a lot of freeware and it’s not difficult to forsee the day that WGA becomes a tool in the “force the user to buy MS software only” arsenal. As to DRM, I don’t appreciate in the least that MS now appears to consider itself a primary enforcer for the entertainment industry. Re: driver signing reqs, if MS moves to require software signing in addition to driver signing (another problem for me) then they have in effect become the “big brother” of the computing world, a position they are already well on the way to acquiring. It is no one’s business but mine what software I run on my PC or what hardware I choose to employ in building my PC.

Pumping up the hardware requirements for each new OS release has the potential to widen the divide between those who have and have not, technologically speaking. Widening that divide at some point in some subtle manner widens the divide between those who have and have not at a more rudimentary level. It also serves to keep the hardware manufacturers happy with MS, therefore influencing them in a manner that makes it less likely that they will provide hardware and drivers to lesser markets. Knowing which side their bread is buttered on and all that…

98FE was my first MS OS and it frankly was worse than ME ever thought about being (and yes I have run Me, though not by choice). The SP that was supposed to “fix” it did nothing to improve its performance and reliability. I cannot speak to 98SE. NT4.0 came next and it was sweet in comaparison, being at the least stable. The lack of USB support until SP 4 or 5 was disappointing, but after the nightmare that preceeded it, I hardly cared. Win2K is to this day my preference. It is stable, not particularly resource intensive, well-organized (to my mind anyway) and gives me no trouble ever (with the exception of the standard reload the dang thing every 3 years because it’s becoming corrupt). WinMe was a pile of junk, out-junked only by Win98FE, and WinXP strikes me as a slickered up 2K with somewhat steeper hardware requirements. I use both WinXP and Win2K primarily, and am happy with both as re: performance as it suits my needs. However, I have to agree that a lot of so-called improvements in XP are not much more than eye-candy, and childish eye-candy at that.

Vista , at least for me, is not an option. No way will I rebuild my computers just to get that annoying Aero-Glass. And not being particularly visually oriented, it is exactly that – annoying. Classic mode in Vista lacks the menu options that I prefer – again, not being visually oriented I prefer words. The directory re-structuring at first glance is a drag. Another pet peeve re: MS. I do not understand the need to change things that are working just fine as they are. From a personal productvity angle, this at least temporarily lessens my productivity as I devote too much time to relearning an OS I have been comfortable in since Win98. The learning curve for previous OS releases was not as time consuming, or so I think.

As I will not likely ever install Vista due to all the mentions above, I am now exploring Linux and wish I had begun that process several years ago. I frankly don’t care too much what the various gui’s look like, it is functionality and ease of use that I am interested in. I would prefer to never have to deal with CLI, but unfortunately with Linux this will likely not be the case for some time. As the “bully factor” in Redmond increases exponentially with each new OS release, my preference re: CLI is relevant only to the degree that it influences which distro I eventually settle on.

It is likely that I will maintain a Windows installation for quite awhile – there is a lot to learn with Linux, my job requires Windows, and a secondary job requires the use of software that only runs on Windows at this time (yes, I know about the emulators, more to learn). No biggie. I order SP disks for each of my OS’es and when product support ends, I at least still have the SP’s at my disposal. I spent a lot of time learning how to [hopefully, probably!] secure my Windows systems, so I should be good to go for awhile without getting anywhere near Vista.

The introduction of Task Manager is for me one of the highlights of MS OS evolution. Though frankly it could work better at killing hung apps.

The biggest Con of Vista is…

In reply to My primary beef with MS…

…the outrageous price. I can’t imagine spending as much on an operating system as I would for a midlevel notebook computer. That’s insane!

And if it crashes !

In reply to The biggest Con of Vista is…

You get to buy the O/S over again their WMA stuff will bite you on the A – – ! I figure a few times of buying that over and over will drive people to either MAC or Linux ! So I Welcome “VISTA” with open arms hehehehehe like go ahead and up grade I have your version of Linux waiting for you . .

BS! Complete BS!

In reply to driver signing and add-ons a no brainer.

Ok, so you’re running Ubuntu but can’t run Win 98SE very fast?

What did you strip out of the install? Running command line only?

You’re either lying or not telling the whole story. Please let us know the whole story.

What version of Ubuntu? How much CPU? How much RAM? Please, entertain us.

There is no way in this world that you can run the newest version of Ubuntu and not run Win 98SE fast.

You tweaked Ubuntu to hell and back and probably accepted all the defaults in Win 98.

Give me a break. Stop lying, crawl out of your hole, and get a nose job…you’ll need one.

My Setup

In reply to BS! Complete BS!

I have a Pentium 166MX with 48 MB of RAM and 4GB+4GB+8GB HDDs running Ubuntu 5.10 (Breezy Badger), I haven’t tweaked it all that much, I just compiled the kernel to match the hardware I have, and only installed the software I need.

I used to run Windows 98SE on the same machine, and to be fair, I wasn’t able to compile a kernel, but I did install the drivers for the hardware in the machine, and no others. I did tweak the Windows 98SE machine very heavily to improve performance, but I also ran Litestep with a very graphical theme.

All in all, I haven’t noticed much of a difference between Windows 98SE and Ubuntu. The only reason I moved was because 98SE is no longer supported.

Oh, and just so you know, I haven’t changed the purpose of the machine at all despite the change in OS. It still acts as my email spam filter (running Spambayes), and displays a photo-slideshow on its original CRT monitor.

I very rarely sit infront of the machine to do anything, because the machine is slow (even running DOS or Debian CLI is slow on this machine).

My point is that even on an old machine like this, having Ubuntu running the way I want it to, looking the way I want it to it runs the same as Windows 98SE did and I had that running the way I wanted it to, and looking the way I wanted it to.

If MS still supported 98SE, I’d still be running it.

There is the full story.

The only reason I upgraded was

In reply to My Setup

The only reason I had to up grade to Win 2K Pro was the ability to write big files ( Movies ) to DVD’s and as soon as I get 2 items to work in Linux I am gone never to return to Windows !
Only for people still stuck on the Windows Barge will I run windows again to fix their stuff ( it will be on a hard drive and put on a shelf )

Start preparing now

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Microsoft was never any good at OS. All OS versions since DOS 2.22 have been useless. Open office is better than MS Office, MS SQL server has always been crap since version 2. MySQL is so much better than MS SQL Server I doubt MS even uses it. Linux can be a better desktop than Mac. I just hope Microsoft’s death throws do not last too long.

Do you really expect to be taken seriously?

In reply to Start preparing now

No version of DOS better than 2.22? Useless?? Get real. While you’ve been busy saying your Hail Torvalds deep inside your Linux monastary, the real world has been working with continually improving versions of DOS and Windows. Were they all better? Oh, hell no. WinME stunk big time. And I, for one, will not be moving to Vista for a lot of the same reasons already mentioned in this thread. I’ll stick with XP, and a virtual machine running Ubuntu 6.10.

But to say nothing has improved in the DOS and Windows world since 2.22, or that it’s all useless, is just to ignore reality in a fit of Linux worship.

What’s a “death throw?”

In reply to Start preparing now

Are you perhaps referring to death throes?

You should try and post realistic commentary

In reply to Start preparing now

I’ve supported MS since the struggle between IBM and Microsoft MSDOS. I’ve supported every version of Windows up to XP and I can see your emotional dislike and disrespect shining through but it doesn’t solve anything and shows little aside from your bad non constructive commentary. I’ve bought full versions of Linux in SuSE, Xandros and a Ubuntu live cd but they simply don’t have the same support base in either software nor hardware as does Windows. Linux cannot be better than a Mac in the graphical areas as there is just not the same level of available software, hardware or drivers for it. I like Linux but these are points that just can’t be ignored as they are facts and liking it has nothing to do with it. Microsoft is unlikely to ever be in any kind of death throw as they have broadened their horizons into other areas aside from the computer business. If you are really as angry as you appear to be, I’d advise you to stop supporting Microsoft by not buying their products and services.
There are choices out there that will work for you, you just have to try them out and decide what works for you in a way that you can live with. Quite frankly, Microsoft is doing more for Linux, Mac and Sun Solaris than anyone else out there. How so ? Well, MS and most other large greedy corporations tend to annoy their supporters until the supporters decide they’ve had enough and go elsewhere. MS has no legal responsibilities to anyone buying, using or selling legal copies of their OS. They have made the terms and conditions of Vista’s OS something you really should read before you open and agree to it as opening it is agreeing to the terms
so try before you buy but read and heed. It might help stop you from coming back to the forums to complain about their software.

Business as usual…

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Many of the responses here hold very true, often resulting in what many feel that the improvements or benefits of a newer O/S from MS does not justify the need for a forced upgrade due to the lack of support for previous versions. Despite the various opinions from users we must keep one thing in mind: it is a business and the bottom line is money. Sure, I share many of the same feelings the rest of you have. But after spending more than a decade providing desktop support to end-users, I see why MS is often forced to cater so much to them rather than the technically savvy. And as long as end-users are willing to empty their pockets for the “newer, better versions”, they will continue to tweak and bloat the O/S beyond recognition. Just add a few new “lame” features, a “cool” accessory or two, smother some “eye candy” all over it, spend millions in advertisements and there you have it: a recipe to make MS even richer. Sad truth. Personally, I only upgrade when I have to (i.e. the software demands a hardware or O/S upgrade).

I agree and one comparison is

In reply to Business as usual…

US automobiles – still lousy mileage, cupholders, DVD players, air conditioned “map” compartments …..
Way too much like the old jokes “If MS designed an automobile” or should it be “If Detroit Designed an Operating System” ?

I Agree 100% with the author!

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

As a computer user who goes back to the Tandy Model 1 days, Operating systems updates have been a major thorn in the User world. IBM stuck with Windows 98SE until the Pentium 4 came along for their business clients with 2000 as an alternate. XP offered little new features but required a hardware boost including memory. Windows ME was an absolute was of money as it often fails to shut down properly unless you have a OEM version custom tailored for a given machine. For example, my Thinkpad 600 and T-22 run fine with 98SE, but choke often with ME. My main system with XP SP-2 failed due to a hard drive problem, and I lost all of my documents, Outlook address book and emails when I re-installed it. Not so with 98SE, and XP requires a re-install if you change the MB unlike 98SE.

I have refurbished over 1,000 IBM, Dell, and Gateway computers for a church group over the last 5 years, and those with 98SE are still running with no problems. Not so with ME or XP. Many of these computers are still running in places like Kenya, the Ukraine, and El Salvador who have little or no technical support. The two computer labs that I sent to Kenya in 2002 were up and running in less than a day (Peer-to-Peer)and still function perfectly.

Not so with my 3 XP systems at home with a wireless network which takes over an hour to setup each time I change the hardware. But my old oldtop with 98SE just chugs along.

Vista is (IMHO) a failure

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

As a freelance tech, I’ve installed five Vista ‘puters so far. Four of the five had serious problems CAUSED by Vista!

One could not read a 4 gig flash card the EU owned – Vista has a 2 gig limit bug. One (a HP) could not strike recovery CD’s from the restore partition – HP said this was also a Vista bug. Two more broke in other ways. As Kurt Vonnegut said, “So it goes.”

Overall, I’ve found Vista to be sluggish even on fast hardware – and the best incentive I’ve gotten recently to work more with Linux.

Puppy OS (www.puppyos.com) is blindingly fast, works on hardware that Vista wouldn’t even load on, and was basically written by ONE person. It also comes with a ton more USEFUL apps than Vista – and it’s FREE, not $400 for a full-function version.

I hope there is a massive user revolt that forces Micro$loth to turn away from creating ever more bloated & dysfunctional OS’s, & makes them take note of how lean and fast an OS can really be…

I have heard about the problems

In reply to Vista is (IMHO) a failure

I have heard and read more problems about “Vista” and its inabilities to do things like it was supposed to do ! One of the many reasons I told all the people I have made computers for ( all of them would have made the conversion ) NOT to change it to “VISTA” wait for a few years till the dust settled and the patches were almost done ! And maybe they would make the choice to go to Linux like the last 2 people did that I made the computers for . .

The patches will never be done

In reply to I have heard about the problems

The patches will never be done
Just look at prev OS
If you can get microsoft to say that
any of there OSs have no bugs let us know

When Will Linux Ever be Bug Free?

In reply to The patches will never be done

The patches will never be done

The patches will never be done
Just look at prev OS
If you can get Linux to say that
any of there OSs have no bugs let us know

no one has ever claimed to be bug free

In reply to When Will Linux Ever be Bug Free?

The Linux people are the first to point out that all software created by human hand is flawed though it will mature.

The “bug free” claim is only in proprietary software where bugs are thought of as negative issues. The Linux croud (being above average in technical knowledge) understand that software updates (patches or new versions) are a good thing. Frequent updates are an indication of ongoing active development usually including new features along with addressing any previous flaws.

The “bug free” claim is just more bunk FUD to benifit those with a vested interest.

Show Me

In reply to no one has ever claimed to be bug free

Anywhere that MS claims their software is bug free.

Or did you just invent that yourself?

I’m in error; was missdirected by your subject

In reply to Show Me

Your subject “When will Linux ever be bug free” threw me off the previous post which you where responding too. I don’t agree with Steve’s comment either and didn’t realize you’d simply swapped a word or two in yours in response. As for jhecht; he’s making a final analysis long before it’s been out long enough to be “battle tested”.

Crap, now reading between your post and steve’s; I haven’t got a clue what he’s trying to say. MS has never claimed to be bug free though they still see bugs as falures to be hidden from the consumer lest they tarnish Microsoft’s polished marketing image.

“When will Linux ever be bug free?” – never totally 100% bug free like any other piece of software but I trust my security with the mitigated bugs in Linux far more than I trust MS product line. If my Windows box get’s cracked, it’ll be because the product is shoddy. If my Linux box get’s cracked, it’ll be because I was shoddy. In both cases, I have the systems locked down tight and the greater amount of my knowledge is in the Windows world.

I’m not going to backpedal though. I took a running start, jumped and landed in a mud puddle so I’d best role around a little.

Perhaps it should have been directed at steve who doesn’t seem to understand the difference between patches and updates, let alone the difference between a critical flaw and a general flaw. My comment still stands on it’s own though.

FOSS people *are* the first to agree that all software has bugs in it. Not the zealots. I mean people that know something about software architecture and development.

“Bug Free”, claimed usually by marketing inuendo. buy Vista now, it’ll make your life magic. buy Vista now, it’s the safest OS in the world. buy Vista now, you’ll never want for more again. not to leave out; osX is impervious, buy now. osX is stops street crime, buy now. osX will cause world piece. (the comercials are entertaining if you know about tech and missleading if you don’t)

Examples aside though, proprietary software still generates a very negative view of updates.

For Windows, patch tuesday brings more security patches than software updates. You get the odd updated Mediaplayer 10 to 11 and such but generally it’s fixing broken things.

Apple is no better with it’s “Oh, there’s no flaw in our network stack” for six months then suddenly a patch apears. At least osX also includes regular software updates for the Apple closed stuff and open BSD stuff supporting it.

FOSS (lumping Linux, BSD and such) has a ton of program updates along with patches included into the newer software versions. If you really want the patches, you can get them and roll your own if you like. In that case there’s no mighty dollar pushing a profit margin so the new software versions just flow down through the distrobutions to the end user.

Now, here’s the last bit. Regular updates are good. I keep saying that I’ll take concern the day FOSS developed software begins providing less weekly (daily even) updates then proprietary software. I’ll take concern the day some MS fanboi posts the latest patch numbers and I see a smaller number beside the nonMS-nonApple products. In terms of critical patches, that’s already the case, as it should be but when general patch numbers decrease past proprietary then there is reason to worry.

That is because regular patches indicate continued development. Your not getting a security flaw patch, your usually getting a newer version of the software along with any new features, the developers latest itch and ongoing improvements.

So, the claim that Windows, osX or any other OS is superior because it has less updates in general is complete FUD.

If you’d like a tennis analogy; I walked strait into your backswing on that one. You didn’t seem me walking past behind, I didn’t see you lining up for the serve.

Re The patches will never be done

In reply to When Will Linux Ever be Bug Free?

The comment was intended to mean don’t wait
Get Vista do your part
Help with fixing it by useing tech support
This is a customers right and should be answered Microsoft
The more unhappy customers MS has the more likely they will improve.

think I’ll wait still

In reply to Re The patches will never be done

You know, give MS time to get Vista truly out of beta. Now that they’ve met the release deadline, they can get back to finishing the software. Let’s see how sp1 is and call that the real full release ready for public consumption.

Look at it this way, Vista is the new marketing flagship. If it’s sales stay low, MS will be more motivated to get the code ready for daily use.

rikk; how true

In reply to think I’ll wait still

hehe.. Google’s purpetual Beta. At least the betas are fully usable and there’s probably a whole debate on the benifits but this isn’t the place and that was just a funny jab at the mighty Goog.

It’s just you

In reply to Vista is (IMHO) a failure

I’ve also installed Vista on a few machines.. Few being 10 and have minimal to no problems. The only problems I’ve had came from using beta/RC versions. Build 5600 seemed to be the best until 6000.

I’ve installed 6000 on a average machine and it runs quite well. Granted not as well as XP pro, but it still runs well.

I like the look of Vista over the crayola look of XP which is why I told myself once I started with Vista, I’d keep with it through the thick and thin. Now that other software companies are FINALLY coming out with the tools I need to do my job the road is much less rocky. Thank you Symantec for finally releasing a beta of PCanywhere that works with Vista.

As far as the original post, if you really want to run Vista on your 500mhz Celeron, go ahead. It won’t be fun and you’ll be sitting around waiting quite a bit, but you can do it. Microsoft isn’t saying you HAVE to upgrade your equipment, it’s just recommended. I don’t care how you slice it, Linux also has hardware requirements and the newer versions require much more than the previous versions, so are they forcing you to upgrade too? Given the cost of components today anyone who has a machine that is older than 5 years needs to upgrade.

Even if you purchased a new machine when XP first came out, you wouldn’t be happy with it 6 months ago before Vista was released.

Maybe you should point some fingers at all of the PC Game manufacturers for allowing so much sloppy code we HAVE to upgrade our equipment for better experience. Funny how in order to play the newest video game you have to run out and purchase 2 of the newest nvidia cards at $350 each. Vista Media Center works well on my $40 6800GT.

you are correct!

In reply to It’s just you

You are correct. I’ve had about the same experience with Vista. The only problems I’ve had with Vista were with my own crappy failing hardware.

Five whole machines?

In reply to Vista is (IMHO) a failure

Wow, then it all must be true! Vista is a failure!

Ha Ha Ha

In reply to Five whole machines?

Probably 5 crappy machines, generic hardware, taped together with duck tape and super glue.

As for me, since we’re in this “I’ve tested 5 whole machines” now mode, my dad bought a new PC with Vista about 3 months ago.

I’ve gotten less questions from him in the last 3 months than I’ve had in the last 2 years running anything else.

He even figured out on his own how to setup dual monitors. And from a guy who barely knows how to turn the thing on too.

Five brand new machines!

In reply to Ha Ha Ha

If you want to bleed – and make your customers bleed – on so called ‘cutting edge” software, go ahead…

All five computers were brand new, fresh out of the box, supposedly ‘optimized’ at the factory.

Four out of the five (now five out of six) gave me problems with really basic operations, like setting up DSL with Verizon. Or don’t you think MS should test its new OS with a nationally used ISP’s install CD?

One guy had a digi-camera that Vista would not eat the 4 GB flash card from – known Vista bug – this is the multi-media OS of the future? 4 GB cards are common today, why didn’t MS catch this?

I’m sure Vista has better ‘security’. My point is, WAY too many things break on it for a commercial OS that costs $400 for the full version. And MS is pushing this cr@p down everyone’s throat, by forcing computer makers to install it on all new boxes, instead of allowing a choice of XP/Vista.

Go run Puppy Linux – it loads entirely in ram, is blindingly fast, sets up for ethernet in five minutes or less, is FREE, and was coded from GNU linux by basically one person, with some ‘help from his friends.’ Whole distro is 85 MB, and includes FREE MS compatible word processing & spreadsheet software, along with a ton of other excellent programs. Yeah, it has its speedbumps, too.

My point is that distros like Puppy are made by small groups of underfunded people, who typically run rings around Micro$oft when it comes to ‘bang for the buck’.

Then we have MS itself, which has zillions of bucks, tons of people, and somehow manages to create OS’s that require ever faster/bigger/more hardware, instead of LEARNING how developers like Barry Kauler (Puppy) make lovely, tiny, highly functional, and intuitive OS’s, that still run (even better) on the latest hardware.

Do you think it both right and inevitable that everyone should buy a new computer every three years? That this is the natural order of things? Let me clue you – not everybody can – especially worldwide…

And speaking from a worldwide perspective, it is much more ecological to re-use older computers AS computers, than it is to try to ‘recycle’ the wire, gold, etc.

Whole provinces of China are now so polluted by such ‘recycling’ of US computers, that drinking water has to be trucked in from 30 miles away.

Workers move through clouds of carcinogenic smoke unprotected. This is the dark side of the consumerist newer/faster/better throwaway mentality…

We do not have to throw away functioning computers to accommodate the latest bloatcode.

OS’s CAN work with smaller resources – if they are designed properly – Vista is (IMHO) not so designed. Rather, I think it is more designed to FORCE yet another round of hardware upgrades. Thus, I call it a FAILURE – it does NOT run well/fast on TODAY’S hardware. Clear now?

Re: This Should Be Easy…

In reply to Five brand new machines!

1) I don’t believe in cutting edge but I also don’t believe in anything right now under a 3.0 Ghz processor and/or a dual core, minimum 1 Gb of RAM. If you can’t afford that, fine, then lower your expectations.

2) “‘optimized’ at the factory” is crap. Do your job and optimize it. That’s not MS’s problem, that’s whomever you bought the PC from such as Dell, HP, genericware, etc. They don’t optimize, they bloat and put on crapware.

3) If you are setting people up using the Verizon install CD instead of putting a router/firewall between them and the modem, you’re fired. If you install a hardware router/firewall between them and the modem, you don’t need the crappy Verizon install CD.

4) My guess is your 4 Gb card is crap. Can you provide specs, brand, etc or are you saying all 4 Gb cards are bad?

5) Vista doesn’t cost $400. Not even close. Upgrades are less than half of that, OEM is about half, and with a new PC, well…a lot less! You cherry picked the most expensive way too go, namely, Vista Ultimate full install no upgrade…few people will go that route.

6) If you go to the major PC manufacturers right now, you can select XP on many of their business product lines. Again though, not MS’s fault, it’s the manufacturer not offering it. MS still offers it.

7) Puppy Linux. Let’s see, blindingly fast because it is loaded entirely into RAM. Unless and until you want more than Puppy offers and/or don’t have enough RAM to load it entirely into RAM.

If I could load XP entirely into RAM, it would be smoking hot too. Fortunately, XP is a full suite OS offering many times over the functionality and features that Puppy can’t even touch.

That’s a crap argument. Of course, anything that loads into RAM only is going to be faster than an OS that requires a hard drive.

How about comparing apples to apples next time? Or, what happens if you run Puppy with say only 256 Mb of RAM? Open 10 or more programs while surfing the web and editing a photo?

8) Thank God you trust an OS written by one person and with the ‘help from his friends.’
I sure don’t. I hope he never packs it up and goes on permanent retirement.

9) The best open source office suite is probably OpenOffice.org. And first off, it won’t fit on a distro that is only 85 MB. It is probably 2-3 times that itself.

Second, it chokes on MS compatibility on anything but the most basic features. Try writing macros, advanced charts or tables, or VBA code. NT.

I don’t just give my people a word processor or spreadsheet, I give them a word processor or spreadsheet, ask them what they do, and then automate the crap out of it.

10) I’ll give you the bang for the buck argument. Hey, Linux is free and you get what you pay for. That’s pretty simple.

11) Chicken and egg here. Does MS really constantly require faster hardware or does companies like Intel keep producing it and therefore MS just puts it to work?

Give me a break. Do you really think that even if MS’s newest OS ran on a PII 300 that Intel would just sit around and keep making PII’s because they’re profitable?

12) I could care less if people can’t buy a new PC every 3 years or so. They do have alternatives, as you have so rightly pointed out here.

What I want is the latest, greatest, resource hogging, eye candy that I can get my greedy little hands on. I’m can pay for it so go back to your socialist/Democratic/Hillary Clinton loving hole you live in and leave me alone.

I’ll put MS on my PC because I want MS and even if I have to fork out 2,3,4 times the cash that you do, I have it so that’s not a point of consideration.

13) Recycling, well, you have a point but soon, very soon, with the whole “greening” of IT, that’ll change. The newest, latest, greatest PC’s will use a fraction of the electric of older PC’s and still be exponentially faster.

14) Not clear at all! Tell me, so, you want to continue to reuse instead of recycle PC’s. I want to play the latest, greatest version of Doom with super realistic graphics.

How are you going to give me that with Linux on a PII or PIII?

Or, since I work for a home builder, how exactly are you going to enable my CAD designers to draw 3D representations of homes on these old POS’s?

You can have the fastest OS in the world, but if the applications designed for it and consumers want are resource hoggy themselves, games over.

Thanks for giving me a fast OS, too bad none of the apps I need are as fast.

This IS easy…

In reply to Re: This Should Be Easy…

>1) I don’t believe in cutting edge but I also don’t believe in anything right now under a 3.0 Ghz processor and/or a dual core, minimum 1 Gb

>of RAM. If you can’t afford that, fine, then lower your expectations.

So you “don’t believe” in the majority of installed computers in the world? Just because you think them inferior does not make them go away.

The difference between us, is that I try and fit the OS to a user’s needs and budget. You just say “get a bigger budget, or you aren’t worth my effort to help you.”

>2) “‘optimized’ at the factory” is crap. Do your job and optimize it. That’s not MS’s problem, that’s whomever you bought the PC from such as

>Dell, HP, genericware, etc. They don’t optimize, they bloat and put on crapware.

Agreed, computer makers load up new boxes with crap, to con customers into thinking they got great value. FWIW, I am not the one typically buying the computer – I do a lot of work for companies like CompUSA, where people are often pathetically mis-advised by ignorant/indifferent salespeople to buy inappropriate computers.

I then go out to install the new box, on a fixed fee call that gives me very limited time, and typically zero budget for cool stuff like a router/hardware firewall. My job is to get them maximum functionality in a very short time. To start, I turn off all the XP/Vista eye candy crap, turn off as many TSR’s as I can, disable unused devices (like infra-red connect when there are no i-r devices), and in general, try to pare down what’s running to a more efficient configuration.

>3) If you are setting people up using the Verizon install CD instead of putting a router/firewall between them and the modem, you’re fired. If

>you install a hardware router/firewall between them and the modem, you don’t need the crappy Verizon install CD.

Please see above. What part of no budget/no time don’t you understand? My job is (often) to take it out of the box, and make it work RIGHT NOW! No trips to the computer store, no money for extra gear. And you want to fire me for dealing with a f—-d up situation? Sheesh!

>4) My guess is your 4 Gb card is crap. Can you provide specs, brand, etc or are you saying all 4 Gb cards are bad?

The card worked in the guy’s camera, worked at Kinko’s, and did NOT work on his spiffy, new Vista computer. It is a HP, when I called HP tech support, they said the 4 GB Vista bug was biting them. No, I don’t think 4 GB cards are bad, I think MS quality control, and beta testing are bad…

>5) Vista doesn’t cost $400. Not even close. Upgrades are less than half of that, OEM is about half, and with a new PC, well…a lot less! You

>cherry picked the most expensive way too go, namely, Vista Ultimate full install no upgrade…few people will go that route.

Uh, Mr. System Administrator, which do you think is the better install – an ‘upgrade’, or a ‘clean’ install? No, most won’t go for Vista Ultimate, PRECISELY because it costs $400 – but they SHOULD. All the lower versions are variations on the word ‘crippleware’.

>6) If you go to the major PC manufacturers right now, you can select XP on many of their business product lines. Again though, not MS’s fault,

>it’s the manufacturer not offering it. MS still offers it.

This shows EXACTLY your narrowness of viewpoint. On the BIZ lines, maybe. On the CONSUMER lines, XP is rarely an option – but it should be…
And I kind of think there’s a lot of arm-twisting by MS to push Vista in every way possible.

>7) Puppy Linux. Let’s see, blindingly fast because it is loaded entirely into RAM. Unless and until you want more than Puppy offers and/or

>don’t have enough RAM to load it entirely into RAM.

Puppy works very well from a hard drive install. As for features, see below.

>If I could load XP entirely into RAM, it would be smoking hot too. Fortunately, XP is a full suite OS offering many times over the

>functionality and features that Puppy can’t even touch.

This is what is stock, or downloadable, for free, for Puppy.
And it’s a LOT more than you get on a stock Vista box!
————————————————————————-

Wordprocessing Web page editing Personal accounting

Abiword, imports & exports MS Word documents, embedded image editing
Composer WYSIWYG editing. Bluefish code editing and Amaya are packages
Xfinans personal accounting, Grisbi and Qhacc are packages

Instant messenging Addressbook, Calendar Web browser

Gaim, supports IRC, ICQ, Jabber, MSN, Yahoo
Ical, Gaby, Agenda
Seamonkey, with Flash and Gxine multimedia plugins

Spreadsheet editor File manager Desktop publishing

Gnumeric, imports & exports MS Excel
Rox-Filer, uXplor, MToolsFM, GTKSee
Scribus, on CD or as a package

Vector image editing Outliner, organiser Bitmap image editing

InkLite. Sodipodi, Dia, Figurine and Inkscape are packages
DidiWiki, (VYM, Tuxcards are packages)
mtPaint. Xpaint & Gimp are packages

Audio Video Games

Gxine to play local & streaming, XfreeCD, ripperX, Sweep
Gxine to play DVDs, local & streaming Internet video
Gemgame, Bubbles, GTKfish, Rubix, tkMines

Conversion, printing, scanning Package management Network

GsView Postscript & PDF viewer, PDQ printing, etc
PupGet, DotPup, point & click download and install lots of extra applications
GKDial, Xeznet, Wvdial, Roaring Penguin, RDP, VNC, Superscan

Window manager Database Help

JWM. Fvwm95 & IceWM are packages
Sqlite. Quisp SQL database is a package
Many megabytes of help pages in the Puppy CD
————————————————————————-

>That’s a crap argument. Of course, anything that loads into RAM only is going to be faster than an OS that requires a hard drive.

So why doesn’t MS work on a more scale-able approach? Load the minimum needed for the tasks you’re doing. As opposed to Vista, which from what I understand, is DESIGNED to use ALL the RAM available.

>How about comparing apples to apples next time? Or, what happens if you run Puppy with say only 256 Mb of RAM? Open 10 or more programs while

>surfing the web and editing a photo?

Puppy runs quite nicely (in RAM) on 256 MB. It will STILL run MUCH faster than ANY MS OS on as little as 64 MB o’ RAM, with a HD install.

>8) Thank God you trust an OS written by one person and with the ‘help from his friends.’
>I sure don’t. I hope he never packs it up and goes on permanent retirement.

I am not (unlike you) saying that any given OS is the Holy Grail. I use them all, and appreciate the strong points of each. Too bad MS doesn’t give us more to like… If Barry K. (Puppy’s developer) dies/retires, there is a worldwide, highly supportive, Puppy community – many of whom are expert Linux heads. No solution is perfect…

>9) The best open source office suite is probably OpenOffice.org. And first off, it won’t fit on a distro that is only 85 MB. It is probably

>2-3 times that itself.

That’s why Puppy uses Abiword & Gnumeric.

>Second, it chokes on MS compatibility on anything but the most basic features. Try writing macros, advanced charts or tables, or VBA code. NT.

Please TRY Abiword & Gnumeric. Find out how far you can go with them and post the data. That would be USEFUL feedback!

>I don’t just give my people a word processor or spreadsheet, I give them a word processor or spreadsheet, ask them what they do, and then

>automate the crap out of it.

All your BUSINESS clients, who can AFFORD your prices, right? I applaud your expertise, now how about doing something for the home users? For poor people who can’t afford the latest/greatest, but who could use a computer very creatively – if they had one…

>10) I’ll give you the bang for the buck argument. Hey, Linux is free and you get what you pay for. That’s pretty simple.

Not all Linux is free – and if you bothered to TRY it, you might be suprised. An ‘amateur’ (comes from the Latin for ‘love’) is someone who does something out of love, not because they are paid for it. An ‘amateur’ OS may actually be more polished than a commercial one. And we all know what a ‘professional’ woman is called, right?

>11) Chicken and egg here. Does MS really constantly require faster hardware or does companies like Intel keep producing it and therefore MS

>just puts it to work?

‘Puts it to work’? More like squanders it, wastes it, and pisses it away. If you don’t know that chickens hatch from eggs – well, you haven’t been around many chickens.

>Give me a break. Do you really think that even if MS’s newest OS ran on a PII 300 that Intel would just sit around and keep making PII’s

>because they’re profitable?

>12) I could care less if people can’t buy a new PC every 3 years or so. They do have alternatives, as you have so rightly pointed out here.

>What I want is the latest, greatest, resource hogging, eye candy that I can get my greedy little hands on. I’m can pay for it so go back to

>your socialist/Democratic/Hillary Clinton loving hole you live in and leave me alone.

>I’ll put MS on my PC because I want MS and even if I have to fork out 2,3,4 times the cash that you do, I have it so that’s not a point of

>consideration.

Please don’t assume that I love Hillary, I think she’s far too much of a fence-sitting politician. My vote will go to Obama. You go right ahead and play Doom on your mega-PC. I’ll go back to finishing my (contracted) technical book on wiring home recording studios. I started it on a 450 MHz P2, with 256 meg of RAM. I could have finished it there, but moved up to a 1.6 GHz / 512 MB unit that I was given for free by a grateful client.

In a year, I’ll have a commercial book on the market, and you’ll need a new computer.

Go drive your SUV five blocks to the corner store, swill some beer/Coke/Pepsi, sit back, joystick in hand, and enjoy Doom. Some of us actually use our computers to create things, and have no need for the massive firepower so craved by elitist gamers…

>13) Recycling, well, you have a point but soon, very soon, with the whole “greening” of IT, that’ll change. The newest, latest, greatest PC’s

>will use a fraction of the electric of older PC’s and still be exponentially faster.

That will do NOTHING for the HARDWARE recycling problem!

>14) Not clear at all! Tell me, so, you want to continue to reuse instead of recycle PC’s. I want to play the latest, greatest version of Doom

>with super realistic graphics.

>How are you going to give me that with Linux on a PII or PIII?

I’m not even going to try. You are happy with how you use your computer. Be happy. But don’t assume your way is right for everybody.

>Or, since I work for a home builder, how exactly are you going to enable my CAD designers to draw 3D representations of homes on these old

>POS’s?

>You can have the fastest OS in the world, but if the applications designed for it and consumers want are resource hoggy themselves, games

>over.

>Thanks for giving me a fast OS, too bad none of the apps I need are as fast.

Ah, a fellow CAD user! I use Vectorworks instead of AutoCAD, but do 3D work myself. I once installed VW under Win4Lin on a Linux box, and used Win 98SE for the Win OS. Vectorworks did 3D redraws under emulation, faster than it did in ‘native’ mode on a Win 98 SE box. Does this give you a clue?

However, I DO agree, it’s not just on the OS maker to create lean, clean code. It’s also on the program makers.

And the next time you get paid for overtime, collect unemployment, get Medicare, or take a vacation, please thank all the Socialists, and Democrats who fought to get all of us those perks. Or do you think they came by themselves?

hehe.. I like the bits about Doom

In reply to This IS easy…

He keeps talking about how all he wants to do is play Doom on his mega-ultra-whamowonderful power-monster.

That’s still ID Software right? Think we should point out to him that it will also be avaiable natively on Linux? Should we also point out that many games actually perform better on Linux machines even when written for Windows. Would it be too much to point out that his prised Doom servers are all running on Linux/BSD servers because the Windows versions run slower meaning longer ping times?

Nah.. he sounds like a twelve year old who just read a book on computers that mentioned Windows in a few places so he’s decided that it’s the be all and end all of computing.

Nice responses Jhecht

Where do they find these people?

In reply to This IS easy…

Sigh, you were so wrong in two posts, I figured I’d just condense them..

All five computers were brand new, fresh out of the box, supposedly ‘optimized’ at the factory.

As others have pointed out, computers aren’t “optimized” at the factory, they’re made worse. If it’s your job to optimize them, then you should know that. You would also know that the best route to take is to start with a retail copy of Windows to install, not an OEM if possible.

Four out of the five (now five out of six) gave me problems with really basic operations, like setting up DSL with Verizon.

Then, what’s that tell you? I tells me you’re trying to install the OS fresh on every machine and going through the whole process rather than setting up one machine and creating an image to use on the other five. Even the least technical person I know doesn’t do full manual installs when they’ve got multiple machines to set up.

Or don’t you think MS should test its new OS with a nationally used ISP’s install CD?

Nope, I don’t. I think that’s the job of the thousands of people who did the beta testing to find things like that and report ’em to both MS and Verizon. If Verizon was that popular an ISP, it would’ve been found in beta testing. Regardless, if you had problems on all but one of the machines, then the problem isn’t with the OS or the ISP software which didn’t change from machine to machine. The only thing that was different was the steps you took to build the machines beause you did full manual installs on all of them. Therefore, the problem is with you.

4 GB cards are common today, why didn’t MS catch this?

Really? They are? I only know one person who has one, and all of my friends are geeks. That one just happens to be a photography geek, too. As for the “bug”, a quick search turned up nothing, could you point to some docs that this is a known bug?

I’m sure Vista has better ‘security’.

Security isn’t a function of the OS, it’s a function of the admin. The admin uses the tools provided by the OS to secure it, it doesn’t do it itself.

And MS is pushing this cr@p down everyone’s throat, by forcing computer makers to install it on all new boxes, instead of allowing a choice of XP/Vista.

Nobody’s pushing it down anyone’s throat. MS doesn’t supply the OEMs with XP anymore because they don’t want to continue to support old software.

Then we have MS itself, which has zillions of bucks, tons of people, and somehow manages to create OS’s that require ever faster/bigger/more hardware, instead of LEARNING how developers like Barry Kauler (Puppy) make lovely, tiny, highly functional, and intuitive OS’s, that still run (even better) on the latest hardware.

That’s because MS doesn’t concern itself with the past like *nix geeks do. The focus on what’s going to be available in the future when their OS finally ships, and build towards that. Why? Because most OS sales happen on new PCs, not upgrades. When people want a new OS, they generally just buy a new PC. They also do it when their old PC has bit the dust or can’t do what they need it to anymore.

Do you think it both right and inevitable that everyone should buy a new computer every three years? That this is the natural order of things? Let me clue you – not everybody can – especially worldwide…

You’re right, the whole world should slow down so everyone can hop on. Please, no one’s saying they have to buy a new computer every three years. The specs for “premium” call for a machine that’s five years old, so your “logic” doesn’t apply. Even if it were true that the specs were excessively high, Word 2007 runs on XP, so a computer too old for Vista can still run the latest apps. Or, perhaps Word 2003? 2000? If the computer they have today does what they need it to, they’re not going to upgrade anyway. And, let’s get one more point straight: if it weren’t for MS (who makes the OS used by 90+% of the computers in the world) “pushing the envelope”, computers today wouldn’t be $2-300 for a reasonably high-end system. I just recently put together a machine that got a relatively new Athlon, a gig of RAM, 300G hard drive, 128M video card for $250. If I were to trim it back just a little to minimum specs for Vista Premium (and with hardware I didn’t have to go to a surplus store to get), I could’ve probably done it for $150 and still had enough to pay for a copy of the OS. Or, one can go to a computer recycling store and get a good one, with OS, for under $100 (there’s at least 4 of those places within a 5 minute drive from where I am right now). Is $300 a lot of money for a person to pay for a computer? It can be, but if you’re trying to better yourself or your family, isn’t it your responsibility to make those sacrifices? How many of these “poor people” you champion have an Xbox or Playstation, but not a computer? Cable TV?

Now, outside the US, the situation is vastly different, obviously. However, in countries where most of the population doesn’t have electricity or running water, getting a computer is probably the very least of their problems. I know there’s programs like the “One computer, one child” $100 computer, but to think you can walk up to someone who’s starving and offer them a computer as a panacea is…well…irresponsible at best, reprehensible at worst.

And speaking from a worldwide perspective, it is much more ecological to re-use older computers AS computers, than it is to try to ‘recycle’ the wire, gold, etc.

Most people do. The old computer becomes the kid’s computer. Since recycling computers is now mandatory in the US, most companies do, too. Mine pays recycling companies to come and take them away. They’re rebuilt and resold to lower-income families so they can have access to one. The ones that are so bad they can’t be rebuilt, those are scavenged for their bare components. Seriously, get a clue before making these kinds of statements. They don’t reflect the world.

Whole provinces of China are now so polluted by such ‘recycling’ of US computers, that drinking water has to be trucked in from 30 miles away.

Yeah, they also produce infected wheat glutin products that are killing US pets, so I have no sympathy for them right now. Sure, it’s offtopic, too bad.

We do not have to throw away functioning computers to accommodate the latest bloatcode.

Only incompetent twits like you do that. The rest of us know how to use the latest software on the oldest hardware without having to cut out all of the usefulness by going to Linux

OS’s CAN work with smaller resources – if they are designed properly – Vista is (IMHO) not so designed. Rather, I think it is more designed to FORCE yet another round of hardware upgrades. Thus, I call it a FAILURE – it does NOT run well/fast on TODAY’S hardware. Clear now?

No, we’re not, because it runs fast/well on all of my hardware that I have it installed on, none of which is TODAY’S hardware. It runs from 5 years old to two years old. So, where’s the problem? We’re both running the same version of the OS, so if you can’t get it to run on even the newest of hardware, then the failure isn’t the OS. I don’t think I need to tell you once again where the failure is.

So you “don’t believe” in the majority of installed computers in the world? Just because you think them inferior does not make them go away.

Oh, so 6, 7, 8 year old computers are the majority now? News to most of us, I think.

The difference between us, is that I try and fit the OS to a user’s needs and budget. You just say “get a bigger budget, or you aren’t worth my effort to help you.”

Well, while rigid, it’s not the worst mentality to have. When your car becomes too much trouble to maintain, do you go get a new engine, or do you get a new car? Or, even a used car? After all, a 5 year old computer is more than sufficient to run Vista, so it’s not like you have to spend a lot.

where people are often pathetically mis-advised by ignorant/indifferent salespeople to buy inappropriate computers.

And are then directed to ignorant/indifferent “techs” who don’t know what they’re doing.

To start, I turn off all the XP/Vista eye candy crap, turn off as many TSR’s as I can, disable unused devices (like infra-red connect when there are no i-r devices), and in general, try to pare down what’s running to a more efficient configuration.

TSRs? Really? In Vista? Uh-huh….see how you started with what YOU consider crap, then to something that doesn’t exist anymore, then talk about doing what you’re supposed to? There’s your problem right there.

Please see above. What part of no budget/no time don’t you understand?

Whose fault is that? If you’re setting the prices, then it’s yours. If your working for a company that does so, then it’s theirs, but you’re the one not working to fix the problem. You’ve just passed it to Microsoft. Of course, if you knew what you were doing, you could do it more efficiently and be able to do everything you wanted to in a short time and STILL have time to drink that cup of coffee with the customer. For example, if you have a base set of tweaks you do (disabling services, OS tweaks, etc), you could create a reg file and put it on a USB stick. Double-click, done. All of your tweaks are now in place. How long does it take you to do that now? Want to install software for them? Create a custom installer that you can kick off while you do other things. Perhaps just a base, sysprepped image of Vista that you can install across the board? Unless they have some weird hard drive controllers, one image should work on the vast majority of systems. Again, the problem isn’t time/budget/OS/whatever. The problem is you.

My job is (often) to take it out of the box, and make it work RIGHT NOW! No trips to the computer store, no money for extra gear. And you want to fire me for dealing with a f—-d up situation? Sheesh!

No, I want to fire you because you’re incompetent.

The card worked in the guy’s camera, worked at Kinko’s, and did NOT work on his spiffy, new Vista computer. It is a HP, when I called HP tech support, they said the 4 GB Vista bug was biting them. No, I don’t think 4 GB cards are bad, I think MS quality control, and beta testing are bad…

Oh, so it came from HP support. Yeah, that’s the best place to get info on another vendor’s OS. And, again, beta testing only catches the bugs that hit people. If 50,000 people beta tested Vista (I know it was a lot higher than that), you’d think at least one would have caught that if it was something common. Uncommon bugs get fixed when they’re discovered by someone. I know it’s kind of hard to grasp: but people actually have to encounter bugs before they can be fixed. BTW, to borrow from the Linux crowd: have you submitted a bug report to Microsoft? Have you called them for support? Don’t they offer 90 days of support out of the box anymore? Sorry, I’ve had Platinum support so long, I don’t remember. Too bad your company doesn’t bother paying for a support plan for you. You could obviously get use out of it.

Uh, Mr. System Administrator, which do you think is the better install – an ‘upgrade’, or a ‘clean’ install?

Depends, did you build the machine or did I? I upgraded my 5 year old XP install without issue to Vista. Granted, I would generally prefer to do clean installs of machines that hadn’t been in my control in the past, but you hardly need to buy Ultimate just for that. You also don’t need to buy a full version, either. An upgrade is an upgrade.

No, most won’t go for Vista Ultimate, PRECISELY because it costs $400 – but they SHOULD. All the lower versions are variations on the word ‘crippleware’.

Really? You’ve been talking home users up until this point. They need bitlocker encryption? Domain support? RDP? Faxing?

This shows EXACTLY your narrowness of viewpoint. On the BIZ lines, maybe. On the CONSUMER lines, XP is rarely an option

Which shows your narrowness of viewpoint. Home users can buy “business” computers. They won’t get ’em as cheap, but they’ll typically get better support. For example, consumer lines need to be up-to-the-minute to support gaming, business lines need longer “shelf life”. Example: Dell claims that desktops on its consumer lines will be available in a specific config for up to three months, compared to 18 months for the business lines. The business lines also typically come with more support out of the box (hence the higher costs). You’ll also be much more likely to find an updated driver on a business box than consumer because the businesses are demanding the systems not crash. Home users who encounter these probably usually go through guys like you who wrongly claim the problem is entirely the OS…and thus the misinformation spreads.

This is what is stock, or downloadable, for free, for Puppy. And it’s a LOT more than you get on a stock Vista box!

Ahh, here it is, my favorite pro-Linux argument. “Let’s list all of the software I get besides an OS when I use Linux…” Nice list you compiled there. The problem is, they’re also ALL available in some way or another for use on Windows. That means if I spend the money, I not only get an OS that has wider hardware support, is faster and more stable, and has a better feature set…I also can get all of the software you list, too! “Linux is a kernel, not an OS”, we hear that all the time, but it’s true. Linux is the basis of a wide range of disparate and, in a lot of cases, self-incompatible OSes with no clear standards for usability or compatibility. On that basis alone, Windows wins hands down. Add to that a much wider support base on the Internet from people who are a lot more approachable than the Linux pinheads and you’ve just added gravy to that steak!

So why doesn’t MS work on a more scale-able approach? Load the minimum needed for the tasks you’re doing. As opposed to Vista, which from what I understand, is DESIGNED to use ALL the RAM available.

From what you understand? If you don’t understand, you don’t get to have an opinion. But, to answer the first question…why bother? Why would buy a machine with any amount of RAM, and then strive to ensure you’re always way underneath that value? What’s the purpose of the extra RAM, then? Or, are you one of those twits who still sizes their machines based on peaks rather than usage?

No solution is perfect…

True, but some (like pretty much all of your suggestions) are very much the opposite from perfect.

All your BUSINESS clients, who can AFFORD your prices, right? I applaud your expertise, now how about doing something for the home users? For poor people who can’t afford the latest/greatest, but who could use a computer very creatively – if they had one…

Your logic is flawed on so many levels. Firstly, one doesn’t need the latest/greatest in order to run Vista. Second, you don’t need to use Vista in order to be creative. Whatever they can do on Vista they can still do on XP, too. I haven’t read all of your posts, but I assume you’re one of that crowd.

Not all Linux is free – and if you bothered to TRY it, you might be suprised. An ‘amateur’ (comes from the Latin for ‘love’) is someone who does something out of love, not because they are paid for it. An ‘amateur’ OS may actually be more polished than a commercial one. And we all know what a ‘professional’ woman is called, right?

And, we know what an “amateur” woman is called, too. As for trying it, I can assure you, I’ve got more experience professionally with Linux than you and Rick do as amateurs. Having said that…no, it’s not more polished. If it could be, it would’ve been by now. It’s getting closer, but keeps stumbling over its own failings again and again. Until there’s a default “out of box” experience mandated by someone, Linux will continue to flounder. It never ceases to amaze me how penguinheads will always complain about how MS moves stuff around between versions of their OS, yet you can’t sit down at two different, current distros of Linux and find much that they have in common. Some follow the FHS, most don’t. Some use the LSB, most don’t. Some default to Gnome, some to KDE, some to Xfce. Some install everything open source they can, others will only install it if they like the license. The wide range of variation one gets is bewildering to experts, and you expect home users (who are so ignorant they need YOUR help) to setup their computers will be able to use it effectively? Are you serious?

‘Puts it to work’? More like squanders it, wastes it, and pisses it away.

And, what are they supposed to do with it? I’ve got a gig of RAM in my box, I want to use a gig of RAM. That’s what I bought it for. I’ve got a minimum of 40G worth of hard drive space in my machines, I’m going to use 40G of drive space. That’s what I bought it for. Why buy a system if you’re not going to use it? That’s like buying a car and never using the trunk or glove box.

I started it on a 450 MHz P2, with 256 meg of RAM. I could have finished it there, but moved up to a 1.6 GHz / 512 MB unit that I was given for free by a grateful client.

Why didn’t you just give that new box to a person who couldn’t afford their own computer? I mean, if the ancient box was good enough for you to start with, how did it cease to be good enough? Do they slow down with age? LOL!

In a year, I’ll have a commercial book on the market, and you’ll need a new computer.

Considering how well you write, and how knowledgeable you are, we all seriously doubt that. If it’s true though, good for you. Having a book about wiring home recording studios (there’s a huge customer base) doesn’t make you competent with computers.

Some of us actually use our computers to create things, and have no need for the massive firepower so craved by elitist gamers…
…I’m not even going to try. You are happy with how you use your computer. Be happy. But don’t assume your way is right for everybody.

Oh, goodness, the hypocrisy. And only a couple of lines apart! I’ll clue in on something: my machine can run Doom AND I can use it for creative things, too. See, faster is better, it opens up your options. Tell me, if only elitist gamers need the latest hardware, why did you need such a recent machine to do word processing?

I once installed VW under Win4Lin on a Linux box, and used Win 98SE for the Win OS. Vectorworks did 3D redraws under emulation, faster than it did in ‘native’ mode on a Win 98 SE box. Does this give you a clue?

That you’re lying? Yes, it does. Having used Win4Lin, I’d know you were lying about redraws just from that. But, to suggest that redraws happen faster over the network from an emulated environment with a third-party video driver than locally on a machine that has a manufacturer-optimized driver is really just trying to test the limits of “truth” no matter how you slice it.

However, I DO agree, it’s not just on the OS maker to create lean, clean code. It’s also on the program makers.

Finally, one more or less intelligent statement.

And, HAL…Rick replied to his last post because he was wrong. Yes, he “disagreed” with Rick, but while you’re entitled to your own opinion, you’re not entitled to your own truth.

Tony K it must be nice to be closeted in your own world

In reply to This IS easy…

Where Time is unimportant and money is no object.

Unfortunately for the rest of us we have time constraint and the amount of time that we can spend installing hardware is limited. Personally I don’t do this type of work but I get quite a lot from the Cable companies here who walk in attempt to setup a cable connection trash the OS and then hand out one of my business cards with the advice that they call me to to fix the mess that they have created and that is on XP. Don’t know what Vista Support is like and I’m not interested.

I supported XP from the word go and I’ll never make that mistake again NO Thank You. I’m sitting Back and waiting till the bugs are ironed out and see if Vista is Accepted by my customers. Currently I [b]Can Not[/b] recommend it to anyone and to be quite honest I’ve only had the RTM version since the Volume License Stuff was released in November 2006 so I’ll bet you $ to Donuts that I’ve been working with the RTM product much longer that you have and can not recommend it to a single customer of mine. And I don’t even have the Cripple Ware Ultimate I’m only playing with the Enterprise Version and to be quite honest that’s exactly what I’m doing playing with it a bit of serious testing revealed way too many shortcomings for acceptance into the business community YET.

However what I was specifically referring to was this unsolicited e-mail that arrived unwanted or unasked for but with the person wrongfully self righteously complaining about my actions among others over a discussion on Vista.

[i]Subject: micro screw nux convo
Message:
i just cant believe the three of you rick arron and hal 9000 could be so childish in you comments to each other it is a disgrace to the it community

i have seen better conduct in hardware forums and pirate coves than i witnessed here.[/i]

Now this person seems to want everyone to agree completely on everything sorry but I’m not a Zombie and I do work in my specific field which may be different to yours but it’s as equally important to my clients as yours are to you.

Col

Closeted? Me?

In reply to This IS easy…

Sorry to reply to the other post, TR won’t let me respond to yours.

Tony K it must be nice to be closeted in your own world

Yeah, I’m afraid I don’t think so. For the last 20+ years in this industry I’ve worked for big players (including numerous Fortune 100 companies) and small players. I’ve worked with everything from mainframes to micros, running possibly every conceivable OS. I’ve put in my time, and came to the conclusion that I prefer to work with Windows. Once I figured out that the problems I’d been dealing with the OS were my own doing, I started to wisen up and have been more than sufficiently happy with everything they’ve put out since. You, on the other hand, live in a world in which you can do no wrong, despite your constant failings. You readily admit the issues you’ve had with their products over the years, and when I show you over and over again technical reasons why you’re wrong, you never have a response and just move to the next conversation where you still blame MS for all of YOUR failings. I work on a team that administers thousands of Windows servers which have 24/7 availability, and you can’t even get a desktop OS to work properly. Yeah, it’s obvious I’m the one living in a dream world.

Where Time is unimportant and money is no object.

Whoa! When did I say that? In fact my last reply to jhect I specifically stated that if he did things properly, he’d have time enough left over to have a cup of coffee with his customers. Time and money are DRASTICALLY important, which is reason #1 I choose Windows over other platforms: I set it up, it works, I’m done and I rarely (if ever) have to touch the box again. On the other hand, we like to watch the Unix teams (yes, plural) scramble every time someone uses a capital “R” in a command rather than the lower case they were supposed to. I like sitting in project meetings with a *nix rep, and when the PM asks “when can you have that server in?”, their response is typically “2-3 weeks after we receive it from the factory and it’s been racked”. Mine is always “the day it’s racked.”

Personally I don’t do this type of work but I get quite a lot from the Cable companies here who walk in attempt to setup a cable connection trash the OS and then hand out one of my business cards with the advice that they call me to to fix the mess that they have created and that is on XP. Don’t know what Vista Support is like and I’m not interested.

And, considering the level of support you must give, let me say “thank you”. The fewer people like you we have “fixing” machines, the better. So, what kinds of problems could the techs have made for you? They’d have to work really hard to go in to configure network settings and screw up the OS to the point someone would need to come in to fix it. I continue to find it interesting that you never provide specifics.

to be quite honest I’ve only had the RTM version since the Volume License Stuff was released in November 2006 so I’ll bet you $ to Donuts that I’ve been working with the RTM product much longer that you have and can not recommend it to a single customer of mine.

How many dollars is it you owe me, then? Again, you didn’t provide specifics. As a Platinum partner with MS, I’ve used the OS since very early betas. And, we ARE confident to recommend to the company to start rolling it out to our 13,000 desktops and have been since the RTM. That project will begin in just a couple of months.

And I don’t even have the Cripple Ware Ultimate I’m only playing with the Enterprise Version and to be quite honest that’s exactly what I’m doing playing with it a bit of serious testing revealed way too many shortcomings for acceptance into the business community YET.

Such as? I won’t lie and say we didn’t find issues with it, but we worked with MS and got workarounds or fixes for all of them. As I said, we’re comfortable rolling it out to 13k desktops, so whatever issues you claim have either been fixed already or are nonexistant.

However what I was specifically referring to was this unsolicited e-mail that arrived unwanted or unasked for but with the person wrongfully self righteously complaining about my actions among others over a discussion on Vista.

Subject: micro screw nux convo

I have no idea what that has to do with the rest of your post, but I will point out that while this twit is complaining about others actions, they still haven’t graduated far enough to know how immature and stupid one comes off by calling them “micro screw”.

To TonyK

In reply to This IS easy…

Aside from a tendency to over generalise from your own experience, I don’t have a problem with your key points.

One question though.

Getting ready for a roll out to 13,000 desktops from an MS beta is not what you’d call a low risk small project.

What was the business case for doing it?

Not saying there can’t be ‘reasonable’ ones, just wonder how you sold it to the bean counters.

Re:

In reply to This IS easy…

1) I didn’t say I don’t believe in older equipment. I just wouldn’t even attempt to sell to a customer Vista for a PI, PII, or even a PIII. I don’t believe in forcing an upgrade where an upgrade isn’t needed or appropriate.

2) A hardware router/firewall isn’t “cool stuff”. Anymore, it is almost a necessity for even home users and isn’t expensive.

Maybe $30-$40 max. And for that, you offload some security functionality off of the PC, you gain a lot more security, typically pick up wireless capabilities, NAT addressing, DHCP, stateful packet inspection, can hookup multiple PC’s, etc.

A lot of bang for the buck.

3) I wouldn’t fire you for dealing with F-Uped situations. I would fire you for not fixing the F-Uped situations correctly.

4) Like Tony K said, have you tried calling MS yet? Or are you just going to blame them so that you don’t look bad in front of your customer? Meanwhile, you haven’t helped your customer fix the situation.

5) First off, upgrades do work. I’d rather do a clean install but upgrades aren’t as bad as most say. Depends on how properly maintained the system was to begin with.

“Cripplware”? What? Ok, let me get this straight. Linux offers tons and tons of distros that include or don’t include some features and to you that’s called freedom and choice.

MS does the same thing and you call it crippleware. Nice!

For the majority of people, as you have so elegantly stated, don’t need much and have tight budgets. Give them Vista Home or Vista Home Premium…all well under $400.

6) Simply not the case. Call MS and you can order XP.

If manufacturers and resellers only offer Vista that is their choice not MS’s. Don’t you think that retailers (especially) are only offering Vista to create excitement and therefore sales? Again, not MS’s fault.

7) Virtually all those programs also run under Windows. In addition, if you go the new PC route with Vista, the manufacturer typically does throw in lots and lots of software including a office suite like Works, something like Nero, etc.

If you don’t like the manufacturer’s selection, download some of your open source stuff. Pretty simple!

As a side not, what the heck are some of those programs? Gee, the names are just so descriptive now aren’t they?

8) Support for Puppy. First you said his close friends and now it’s a worldwide network. Either way, doesn’t matter. There’s also a worldwide network of support for Windows including MS itself. And that network is 10-100-1,000 fold larger just because of a larger user base.

9) I do support home users. I have a side business, website, etc. Are you implying that I can’t write a macro or script or something similar in fast enough fashion that a home user can’t afford to pay me to do it?

One, I can. Two, I usually don’t charge full price for something like that knowing full well that one day another customer will want something similar and I’ll already have it built.

I’m willing to spend a few hours doing something for someone and only charge an hours work knowing that I can charge the next person the same price and spend no time doing it.

Maybe I’m just nicer than you and don’t charge exactly what the clock says down to the second.

What I lose in non-revenue generating time I gain in repeat business.

10) What is your point about not all Linux is free? You were talking about saving people money after all.

Besides, I’d bet I have tried out more Linux distros than you. The list is starting to get long and unfortunately, as much time as I have wasted, I still haven’t found one that works for me.

But, not being closed minded, I continue looking and trying.

11) Sqanders what? All your CPU cycles and RAM sitting there doing nothing? One of my PC’s at home is a P4 2.8 Ghz processor, 1.5 GB RAM, blah blah blah. Do you realize what it does 99% of the time? It sits there waiting for me to give it something to do. I wouldn’t call that sqandering anything. My PC is idle 99% of the time.

12) Obama is a joke and so is Hillary. I have played Doom maybe once in the last 6 months. But that’s not the point. If I want to, I want my PC to be able to do it.

I don’t own a SUV. I own a 2.0 liter V4 car that gets almost 35 MPG on the highway. Nice try.

But let’s take the car analogy a little further. My car is also a GTS with a manual override for the automatic transmission. It goes 0-60 in about 7 seconds. So, if I want to punch it and have fun, it will. If I want to cruise and get good gas mileage, I can do that too.

My PC is similar. It does everything and anything I want it to. Your older PC’s won’t. That simple. BTW, my PC cost $280 brand spanking new. I’ve upgraded quite a bit over time but I’d bet I still have less than $500 in it.

$500 isn’t a lot for someone wanting to setup a home recording studio. If they don’t have $500 for a PC, they probably should be thinking about a new line of business.

13) Ok, if it doesn’t why don’t you? For little money out of pocket, Dell, HP, etc will recycle it for you if it’s such a concern.

I know, you’ll say tight budgets. Great, sell your service as green friendly and maybe you can get enough additional business to justify the extra $10-$20 per PC to recycle.

14) Sorry, we use AutoCAD and Vertex exclusively because they have features that have been built into our custom ERP software used for estimating, purchasing, etc.

Maybe one day that would be a prudent move, but that’s a long, long term project with little payout.

15) I don’t make OT (I’m salary), I’ve only collected unemployment once in my life and that’s because I was too damn lazy to work for 3 weeks, at 35 years old Medicare is too far away for me to care and it’ll probably be gone by the time I get there just like Social Security, and vacations? What the heck is that? Democrats fighting for my right to go on vacation.

News flash! If my employer didn’t offer at least 2 weeks vacation per year plus sick days, other time off, etc I’d quit and work for someone else that did. I don’t need a Democrat for that.

And a history lesson for you. Health benefits actually came about probably 20-30 years ago when labor was in tight supply (not by law). It was a competitive edge for companies that offered it to hire someone.

But, just like Social Security which came about in the 1930’s during the depression, somehow became permanent.

Not that I’m complaining, just that it didn’t take a Democrat to “create” it.

TonyK – let’s get one thing strait

In reply to This IS easy…

”
if it weren’t for MS (who makes the OS used by 90+% of the computers in the world) “pushing the envelope”,
”

Actually, if it weren’t for Video Games “pushing the envelope”, Microsoft wouldn’t have all those extra resources to waste. Games have always been the major driver for bigger, faster, prettier on the local machine. Was the Voodoo 3D chip created to push Windows95 or the games that happened to run on Win95?

I’m still reading the rest of your post so other points may follow in another comment but I think this thread may be dead regardless of how hard we whip it.

Rikk, TonyT – your just wrong..

In reply to This IS easy…

I was going to say “your both twits” but that would be disregarding the knowledge that you do have about Windows and that wouldn’t be fair either.

My complaint is not that you like Windows and use it hapily. It works for you and that’s great. It works for me as a gaming platform but I have better options for productivity.

My complaint is that you continue to make statements about *nix based OS which are just flat out rong. I won’t take the time to write a full reponse to each point but let me hit a few in passing:

“Linux programs names are so comlicated and undescriptive” – Does Excel scream calculator or excelerator? Access seems to be a database program not a security software. PowerPoint doesn’t say anything about presentations too me. Program naming for Windows is no less general and cryptic than program naming on any other platform.

“some distrobution include some stuff, other’s don’t; what kind of choice is that” – I’d say a hundred or more different distrobutions based on the same commodity parts is a heck of a lot of choice. I’d say an OS that comes with a 3000 title selection of easily installed software to select from is a heck of a lot of choice.

You don’t like Linux, BSD, osX or anything else non-Windows; fine. No worries, no hurt feelings. I have what works for me, you have what works for you and we all get to check our email. Just don’t try and justify your personal choice by letting so much FUD dribble out your mouths. I’ll do the same and continue to limit the amount of Windows FUD that get’s past my own checks and balances.

Regarding Buying XP Instead of Vista

In reply to This IS easy…

http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/2100-10877_11-6177619.html?tag=nl.e103

Ok, can you stop whining now?

What’s more funny is that I seem to remember you saying that one of the retailers you see alot of is CompUSA.

Funny, they are mentioned in that article about how they still stock and sell XP and have all along.

Well try this one

In reply to Re: This Should Be Easy…

I put a full version of Linux 2007 ( 6 CD’s ) of stuff on a 700 megahertz P II with a whole 640 megs of PC-100 ( 1 512 meg and 1 128 meg chips )memory and it ran really good it had even Code Weavers Pro and Windows Office XP Pro running it was not fast but it could do it Also had the OPEN Office set of programs and they would open all the same stuff that the XP Office would open . . So either your not up to date on what you talk about or your not so great ! Oh yeah had an old 5400 rpm hard drive in it too and some old CD and an OLD CD burner I put a DVD burner in it to replace the CD-Burner for them so they could back up or save stuff to a DVD or a CD

Correct Me If I’m Wrong…

In reply to Well try this one

But I’m pretty sure PII’s didn’t go up to 700 Mhz.

I see your point, but that may have been either a typo or a stretch of truth.

one or two points

In reply to Re: This Should Be Easy…

First, that icon you chose is just asking for a fight. Couldn’t find anything more generic or possibly even *gasp* complimentary to what you prefer rather than opinionated against what you hate?

Second is this bit here:

”
7) Puppy Linux. Let’s see, blindingly fast because it is loaded entirely into RAM. Unless and until you want more than Puppy offers and/or don’t have enough RAM to load it entirely into RAM.
”

Dos is fast as lightning when run from a ramdisk too. The problem with your point though is that Damn Small Linux is a full OS suite including office suite, network suite and techie utilities. Does winXP come with a complete compliment of office software, network software and utilities? Last I looked, it had the basics for network software but I’ve not seen winXP pulling msOffice during the install or including a complete suite of technical tools such as memtester.

I’d have kept reading past point 7 but I suspect your only cherrypicking to make your own point. You read like any other Zealot, Cult of Apple or (and here’s your title) MS Fanboi.

Yup, it does

In reply to one or two points

Does winXP come with a complete compliment of office software, network software and utilities?

Yup. OpenOffice, Ethereal, Apache web server, Abiword, gcc….You’re right, it doesn’t come with memtester. Of course, seeing as I’ve only used it once, it’s of limited usefulness to me. I can figure out pretty easily if I’ve got bad RAM without using memtester.

I’d have kept reading past point 7 but I suspect your only cherrypicking to make your own point. You read like any other Zealot, Cult of Apple or (and here’s your title) MS Fanboi.

Actually, Rick reads like someone who knows what he’s talking about, unlike you. Cherrypicking? Aren’t you the one who touted all of the free software you can run, but forgot to mention it’s all available for Windows, too? You mention the performance of DSL, what about the other distros? DSL is fast, but it doesn’t provide the breadth of functionality of say a Fedora or Ubuntu. Both of which run a lot slower than Windows on the same hardware.

Tony K – so we’re just going to change the scope when it’s inconvenient?

In reply to one or two points

I believe the scope of the comment was; what does DSL come with and what does Windows come with out of the box?

I stick a DSL liveCD in my drive and all the listed components are there. I stick a Windows install cd in my drive and I have a half day of disk switching to do. Hand me a run-from-disk version of Windows with all the previously listed functions in place and we’l continue that line of discussion.

I didn’t mention that the programs listed are also freely (and retaining full user’s liberty) are also compiled for win32 because they don’t come preinstalled with Windows or any vendor’s distrobution of Windows.

If it makes you feel better about your view of the world; I have most of those FOSS applications running on Windows as well as all my other OS which includes more than just the two discussed here.

Again, no problems with you likeing Windows. There are tasks I like it for also. I’m just not going to sit here quietly while you tell me things which are complete crap about [insert any non-Windows OS here].

Actually, an interesting experiement would be for you too isntall Windows, osX and a Linux distro or two. Use them until you are equally comfortable in all of them and *then* come back to discuss, contrast and compaire. Don’t come round telling me how some other OS sucks because 90% of your knowledge is locked away in Windows land.

Be prepared to get a Nasty E-Mail arriving for disagreeing with Rick

In reply to Five brand new machines!

It doesn’t matter how right you are and how wrong Rick is you are going to get an abusive E-Mail anyway for someone claiming that they are disgusted by your actions which make the Hardware Sites look much better and that they have seen better actions in a Kindergarten where the young children refuse to share their play toys.

These foolish people seem to think that their opinion has some weight which it doesn’t so keep up the good work.

Cheers

Col

to understand MS, think of the vendor’s side

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

MS makes the dominant OS in the market primarily sold to businesses and computer resellers. When MS peaks out the profit on one version, they simply release the next version from the workshop with prettier graphics and whatever minimal improvements they have to include under the hood. The rest of the improvements remain in cold storage to bring the next version up to minimum standards.

Third party developers complain but they’re still getting a new version of there software sold to replace what the customer has already paid for.

Hardware manufacturers get a sales boost when everyone suddenly needs to upgrade there hardware for the new Windows Bling version.

Hardware resellers get a sales boost from people buying whole new computers to replace old commodity units or new people jumping into this crazy computer’s at home trend.

Profits decline as the sound of Microsoft’s business clients asking questions rises so they hop to getting a new OS version out the door and the cycle continues another great revolution.

There are better OS available but Microsoft’s business strategy has made up for shoddy craftsmanship over and over.

I think this is going to be another ME !

In reply to to understand MS, think of the vendor’s side

Seems about every other version has MAJOR bugs in it and this is one of the ones ! This is not even an upgrade of Vista . . Its a Major slip in MS thinking for all the time they kept on saying its going to be great, and then to sink this far down already . . Its going to be the best thing ever happen to Linux ! ( any version therein ) Red Hat, Linspire, SuSE, Puppy, Mandriva, Debian, and on . . .

anything that brings vendor support is good

In reply to I think this is going to be another ME !

Vista won’t be the end of Microsoft so that’s fool’s dreaming but if it’s enough to convince vendors to provide at minimum driver support (if not driver development specs) then it’s good news.

I’d be happy with Linux distros remaining the alternative if hardware vendors would follow the wafting smell of Windows money a little less.

Yes, I’m a little bitter today. Another four hour go at the proprietary drivers for ATI with no luck. Mandriva’s included binary blob; 250 fps max. ATI’s provided binary blob; wouldn’t even load X. flgxconf non-existant except where mentioned in various HowTo. Community provided ATI FOSS driver; 1500~1800 fps but no video4linux support of the AIW tuner chip and no real flgrx support for games.

If you are looking

In reply to anything that brings vendor support is good

at the fps from glxgears ignore the output. I have an ati x1600 I managed to get up and running and it showed 250 fps as well, but Postal2 p[lays smooth as glass.

Cheers, I wish it had only been glx showing low frames

In reply to If you are looking

NWN ran like it was on a pent2 and X had a noticable laggy feeling like the mouse and windows where under water. I may have another go at the ATI and may even do so from a clean root install if I get bored on a weekend and decide to rebiuld.

I think I’m done fighting with the AIW 9600 but who knows, I could always stumble across a HOWTO I’ve not tried.

Good luck

In reply to Cheers, I wish it had only been glx showing low frames

with the install. ATI needs to pull their heads out of the butts and build usable drivers. Even their windows drivers suck at this point.

Ah, the Windows drivers, there my favourit

In reply to Good luck

ATI is the only driver I’ve met that has to be uninstalled and stripped back to generic vga before “upgrading” to the new driver version. You can upgrade over your old ATI driver but it makes thinks more flakey. What was that description; Kludgety Junk. And the best part; the newer drivers usually break something further in the MMC software with each version. Even with the latest MMC to go with the latest drivers; setting the ATI schedualler to record something is the best way to insure return to find an error message.

Enough of us banging on that for now. If ATI figures itself out, I may go back to them in future but only after the majority of user experiences become positive.

You are so very right but a better OS is still questionable

In reply to to understand MS, think of the vendor’s side

I’ve tried and use Linux as well as XP and I can honestly say there are + and minus to both OS’s. Basically, Linux, Mac and Unix just don’t have the same support as Windows. This is a sad but true fact as software support is limited and hardware driver support is as well.
Linux is better in some areas, Mac’s are the biggest threat to Windows as it has the graphical interface and support to make one come to seriously consider a Mac. I’ve never bought a Mac but I’m certainly looking hard at the new Leopard OSX that is supposed to become available later on this year. I honestly believe it will have some serious graphical power that will put some serious WOW on the new higher end monitors. It seems as though Windows is getting bigger and bigger with a lot more in Vista but it’s also causing a lot of openings for security issues to take hold in. Vista isn’t for everyone but maybe the next version of Windows will make Vista look like a bad retake of ME. We can all make assumptions and be entitled to our opinions and mine could be totally wrong.

I’d argue that Linux Distros have support

In reply to You are so very right but a better OS is still questionable

For both paid and free help support along with applications. Debian’s something like 3,000 applications available. The hardware vendor’s support sucks though and without it, games won’t come for the home user. There are those habitual user applications that people are not willing to give up though too.

osX is currently the better choice for most I’d say. Even geeks are jumping onto it because they can work the BSD under it’s pretty makeup.

MS should quit while they’re ahead.

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Windows 2000 wasn’t all that great. Driver problems, crashes and other such nonsense. XP has been trouble free for us with over 500 users. MS should work more on security than cute screens (leave that to 3 parties). Nobody here is even talking Vista yet whereas XP, 2000, NT and 95 were all tested and installed soon after release. Than you MS for getting rid of the “are you sure?” for every little change.

Driver Problems ?

In reply to MS should quit while they’re ahead.

What drivers did you have problems with ?
I have run a gob of stuff and never had those kind of problems

About the most misinformed article ever

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

require people to double and triple the hardware requirements so they can keep people on board with MS products?’

About the only area in which that makes sense is if you compare the minimum requirements of XP to Vista. XP’s was a PII 266 with 64M of RAM (the same as 2000), Vista’s is a PIII 1Ghz w/ 512M of RAM. Times change, requirements change. In other words, the machine that I put together 5 years ago to run XP can still run Vista, and it does just fine. Aero and all, I use it every day. Those requirements are for vendors, so they know what to put in the box. Not that it matters much since the minimum requirements haven’t been sold for 5 years.

The biggest problem I have is MS forcing people to upgrade by stopping the support for older products.

They don’t stop support to “force” upgrades. They stop support because can’t support every version of every piece of software forever. No one does. You want support for Windows 95? It’s out there, on the Internet. Just like for Linux (which, BTW, no one really supports old versions of, either. How often do you see Linux software that’ll run on a 2.2 kernel or even 2.4?). All of the questions have been asked and answered for those older versions, but it’s not Microsoft’s job to help you find them. Should they support DOS, too? How ’bout Xenix? SCO isn’t doing a great job of supporting that these days, after all.

So if you want a secure/stable OS then you need to follow MS with every version of Windows they put out, even when their systems are inherently insecure.

Despite what even MS’ marketing guys will tell you, no OS is secure. It’s not an OS’ job to be secure, it’s the job of the wetware that uses the machine. MS can do everything it can to secure the OS, and people will still manage to find new and impressive ways to screw it up. Security is not the job of the OS. If you were an admin, you’d know that.

Windows 9x = Useless

Useless, really? Easily the most popular version, and you think it was useless? Honestly, I find that hillarious. See, I used to be a raving anti-Microsoft twit, too. Then 95 came along. I remember the moment I converted. I was connected to my university’s computers downloading some stuff using the DOS version of Telix. I decided to play a little Warcraft (that’s before there was a World) while that did its thing. A little later I though I should check since the download should’ve finished by then and I hit Alt-Tab. I won’t type the string of explitives I emitted the instant I’d realized what I’d done. “You can’t Alt-Tab in Windows from a full-screen game to a DOS app! You’ve just lost both!”, I thought. I figured with nothing to lose, I’d Alt-Tab back to the game. Surprisingly, it not only worked, but the game had paused while I was out of it! Holy crap! This was a new install of 95, so it occured to me…if it works this well out of the box, I wonder if it’s been ME that’s been causing all of my problems all along?! Sure enough, when I figured out that I was the problem, all of my issues with Windows went away and I became a convert, never looking back. I will agree, however, that Windows ME caused a lot of people a lot of grief unneccesarily.

and if Linux was where it is now back then we would all be using it today.

And where was it back then? Completely useless. I started playing around with it in 1994, and every time I had an issue with my Windows 3.1 box, I’d try Linux again only to reinstall DOS a week or so later. Where is it now? I’d put it about as good as Windows 95, so we’ll let you decide if that’s useless or not.

Windows 2000 = the entire reason I didn?t jump ship and go Linux all the way. Thank you for Windows 2000.

Yup, the first one that even a user like you couldn’t screw up easily.

Cons: Still allows most programs to require admin rights to run.

Again, a failing of yours, not the OS. I know what you’re talking about, though. I ran into this problem with Adobe’s Type Manager back in the day. I had a user that was nothing but trouble (like installing pirated software left and right), so we wanted to lock his machine down. Couldn’t, though. He was a graphics designer and ATM had to be run by an admin. Even Adobe said so! I did a little research, found secedit and figured out what needed to be done to get it to work. Seriously, learn your stuff before you complain.

Windows XP = useless improvements and a new flashy interface that doubled our hardware requirements.

Wrong. XP’s hardware requirements were the same as 2000, that was well-documented. As for useless improvements…huh. Remote Desktop, increased security and performance over 2000? Yeah, now we see what your definition of useless is…”I don’t know what it is.”

Still allows most programs to require admin rights to run. Doubled hardware requirements from Win2000. Runs wizards by default for every configuration. No ?Classic Mode? to be rid of flashy interface and configuration wizards.

Seriously, if you’re going to try to make an argument, at least get SOME of your facts right. What part of the “flashy” interface can’t be turned off by simply disabling the Themes service? What wizards are you talking about? Network configuration? Nope. Display settings? Nope. Performance configs? Nope. About the only thing I can think of off-hand that I use on a regular basis is the Add Printer wizard, however most new printers come with installers that create that so I don’t use it on my XP boxes (only servers) much. Granted, it’s annoying, but I don’t do it all that often. Again, perhaps the problem isn’t the OS, but your lack of knowledge? I’m definitely seeing a patten here…

Directory layout improved (shorter directory names too). Got rid of the ?My . . .? naming convention from early Windows daze.

These are your pros? Seriously? You do know this is a technical forum, right? It’s not really for end-users. Do some research on how to rename “My Computer” in earlier versions. I think you’ll be seriously amazed at how simple a task that really is.

Cool but function-less Aero interface.

You listed this with pros, but isn’t really a “con”? (Like this attempt to show you know what you’re talking about that’s only turning into an ignorance fest)

Navigation with the Windows Explorer address bar.

Which you’ve been able to do since Windows 95, so I guess that OS wasn’t completely useless after all. Oh, and nice job keeping up with the times.

Even better USB support and new flashy icons (useless!).

Oh, I see, these are your pros intermixed with things MS says are pros, right? Tough to keep straight what you’re talking about when you flip back and forth like that.

Broke most of the programs that require admin rights hence forcing programmers to write better programs that won?t make our OS vulnerable to all sorts of attacks and users who download ?free? software.

Reread what you wrote. I think it would be a relatively simple argument to make that if they “broke” because of Vista, they were broken before…you just didn’t notice it. Probably because you were blaming Microsoft for all of the problems these programs were causing you.

Cons: Doubled and tripled the hardware requirements again.

Again, not “again”. For the first time in 7 years, and the minimum requirements are for some seriously old crap.

Over complicated networking-Pick a zone: Home, Work or Public (Why?? Just firewall the connection like WinXP SP2)? Complicated the network browser even further (Just give us back the Network Neighborhood that worked in Win98) The UAC is not needed for every little thing I do especially if I am logged in as admin. The useless, flashy login page.

Wow, there’s so much wrong with this, I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

Windows sidebar is a useless resource hog and shouldn?t be default (how about get rid of useless sidebar and install Telnet by default).

Why is it things you have no use for are useless? I like the sidebar, and find it useful every day. It didn’t have as much use, granted, until I added gadgets that were useful to me, but it’s really up to me to decide what I find useful. Not you, not Microsoft.

Keep in mind I am operating from a admin prospective and want functional efficiency

YOU’RE AN ADMIN!?! Oh, god help the other users (I’m including you, hence the “other”) on your network. Seriously, dude. You’re a clueless twit at best. You want efficiency? Go have a talk with your HR department right now. Explain to them that you shouldn’t be doing this job, and you and your boss (for hiring you) should be fired. You are representative of exactly everything that is wrong with the industry today.

and would like MS to work on functionality and less on wizard-like processes that are meant to cater to end-users/noobs/lamers.

Such as yourself. Um, you do know that Vista is primarily geared for home users, right? MS is fully aware that most businesses aren’t going to jump on the bandwagon out of the gate. Us, we’re ready for it and are pretty much comfortable with rolling it out to our 13,000 desktops. But, that plan won’t go into effect until later this year.

My main contention is Windows 2000 was a great OS (add msconfig) and XP SP2 was a good improvement but put the benefits of XP SP2 on Windows 2000 because business doesn?t need the jelly icons. It doesn?t make Excel add columns faster.

No, but the other improvements in the underlying OS do. People are stupid, they only think something’s changed if it LOOKS like it changed. They aren’t smart enough to go beyond what’s on the screen to see the other improvements that are really important.

Making the interface more attractive only appeals to people who don?t understand or concern themselves with efficiency. A similar statement can be made about the gaming industry as well which is why I can?t find a Wii anywhere!

Wow. Seriously. Wow.

Nice Reply

In reply to About the most misinformed article ever

I agree almost completely, however, our Linux zealots here won’t read it as it is beyond their collective attention span.

I think you did an excellent job of putting together a very thorough and well thought out response.

Thank you.

We’re all geeks at heart

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

One thing this thread has taught me is that we are all professional geeks at heart. Remove the GUI, wizards, eye candy and any other feature that gets in the way of us pros and it would alienate 90% of the users. I guarantee you that what we want in an OS (i.e. the command prompt, lol) is not what the majority of users want. Windows has tried to be all things to all people and while it has failed everyone at one time or another (sometimes even miserably so!) it continues to let us all get our job done at the end of the day.

Some thoughts from reading the thread:

1. Vista is not Me. It actually runs faster than XP if you give it 4Gig of RAM. Granted, that’s a lot of hardware, and for most people there is no compelling need to move from XP, but if you need Vista then drop in more RAM so you can enjoy the experience.

2. While Windows 2000 was good, XP SP2 is better. It?s more stable, more secure, and more advanced under the hood. It will be a while before I can make a solid judgment about Vista (maybe after they release SP2, lol).

3. The Aero interface is too much of a memory hog and should have been refined before release. If we can develop whole applications that can run in a browser, then Microsoft should be able to develop a pretty GUI that can run without so much hardware overhead.

4. While the new security feature is annoying and does get in the way, I like the direction Microsoft is moving. I am confident that given enough data collection and usage reports they will iron it out.

In conclusion, there are better OSes available, but they all lack something significant. For some, it?s an installed user base; for others it’s usable software; for still others, it?s the ability to appeal to the masses. For all MS’s faults, they also have considerable strengths. The funeral march will not begin any time soon.

So true!

In reply to We’re all geeks at heart

“We’re all geeks at heart”
That’s it in a nutshell. People in the know will always want different things to the ordinary home consumer. Windows has to be all things to all people but it turns out to be a techo nightmare for Jo(sephine) average and a wasteful sprawl to many techies. Its just a shell, after all. It’s the interface between us, our hardware and the applications that we relly want to get stuck into. Just because something looks good doesn’t mean it’s easy to use. I suspect many home users would trade some cuteness for true plug-and-play (or even switch-on-and-go).
I don’t miss the command prompt though!

No Vista for me! Not yet anyway…

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

I think we.re all getting a little off-topic here. The basic thread was “why pull support for old O.S’s?” After all, if Vista is so good everyone will just want to upgrade anyway, won’t they?
Well, apparently not. M$ are in a cleft stick here. They,ve spent the earth developing Vista, and scrapped a bunch of functionality to get it out vaguely on time so most of the improvements are merely eye candy. So many who use PC’s for a living are bound to think “what’s the point?”
XP came along at the right time – ’98 was getting very long in the tooth but there is still plenty of mileage left in XP IMO. The world doesn’t need Vista yet. Perhaps if M$ had quietly buried their Longhorn (remember that?) deadline then perhaps they could have come up with a truly revolutionary product in a year or two’s time. Still, when was the last time M$ actually listened to their customers? It would also have given hardware manufacturers more time to develop Vista drivers too (most of the stuff in my studio doesn’t even have Vista drivers yet).
If there is an upside then Vista’s hardware requirements mean that top spec PC’s will be even more affordable. But that’s a small crumb of comfort!
My main studio PC still runs XP SP1 – it doesn’t have an internet connection so “patch Tuesday” is pretty much an irrelevance. It’s never failed to run an app or piece of hardware, even those that explicitly claim to require SP2. It also boots to functionality in under 30 seconds.
What I would like in an OS is user-customisation. Simple things that could be configured at install like:
“will this computer be connected to the internet?”
“will this computer be connected to a network?”
“will you be the only user of this computer?”
“Will you be using this computer to actually create something or do you want it stuffed full of useless eye-candy and garbage pretending to be grown-up applications?” etc.
My main worry is that one day I’ll reinstall XP and the authorisation phone-line (no internet on my studio PC remember) will be dead…
Let’s hope that the O.S. after Vista will be something really worth waiting for! Or that Apple do the decent thing and release their OS to be used on PCs.

“Useless” UI, etc.

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

I supose you’d like to strip all traces of personality or joy from humanity as well. If everyone felt the same way as you about these “useless” improvements in UI, millions of dollars would not have been poured into making them. I’m afraid you’re in the minority here, and perhaps the answer for you is to get Window Blinds and make yourself a Motif or Windows 3.1 skin to strip any life right out of it.

MS Windows is just what it is, try it before you buy it

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Vista, XP or whatever you have is what it is, nothing more or less. Every OS out there and I’ve tried a few are lacking in either what we want or how we want it done. As much as I do like to pick on the negative aspects of Windows
I have to lean in and say try it before you buy it. If you buy Vista, don’t read the license agreement, ignore the terms and conditions, then how can you blame anyone for it’s faults ?
I never installed Vista as I couldn’t get past the terms of the license agreement but I really believe the terms and conditions are there for everyone to read as it’s not just for the business or corporations who want to do multi installs. I’m not going to bash MS as it’s like a dog humping a football which creates a lot of friction and excitement but no satisfaction. I’m trying out Linux and I want to try Mac when the new Leopard OSX comes out. Try and be flexible in finding out what works for you and don’t get caught up in the MS bashing as it goes nowhere.

And just how do you “try MS first”

In reply to MS Windows is just what it is, try it before you buy it

Go to any store
Buy a software package (any kind)
Launch the installer
Say NO to the license agreement.
(NOTE: License agreement is NOT written on the outside of the box)
Now what happens
Program does not install
Pack up and take back to store
NO REFUNDS ON OPENED SOFTWARE.

How do you try before you buy Windows?

You can try Vista by going to Microsoft website

In reply to And just how do you “try MS first”

Go to Micorsoft website, download and install Vista as MS has provided a 30 day trial. If I were you, I’d try Vista by renting a PC either at an outlet or via a friend or computer store.
You don’t have to buy anything before you try it but if you choose to ignore the ways you can try it, then you won’t be able to find one. You should be aware you should never buy any software and open it as opening it is acknowledging that you are agreeing to the terms and conditions of the license. But you can try any OS including Mac if you look for them at an outlet, computer rental or personal connections to those that have it.
Microsoft has made Vista very easy to try and I’m surprised that you’ve missed so many oportunities as they are a lot of websites that have Vista downloadable for trial use.
P.S. The reason I would avoid downloading and installing is it is not easy to remove and reinstall XP so don’t say I didn’t warn you. You also should download the software from Microsoft to see if your pc is Vista compatible before you move on to downloading and installing.

Windows (like VHS) doesn’t need to improve

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Just like the old VHS, Microsoft was cheaper than the better systems (CPM for example) and rapidly took over the biggest market share. Now new releases are more for money making that improving. There is no improvement in moving functions around in the program menus, only to justify a new MS Certification course and license. “TESTED WITH WINDOWS xx” is an expensive phrase, but does MS support anything they say is “TESTED” or will they even allow MS “tech support” to talk about these “CERTIFICATION TESTS”.
The real purpose for computers boils down to applications, documents, spreadsheets, list management, accounting programs, email commnuication, internet browsing and even games. This is what users want, they could care less what underlying OS is powering them as long as they work, keep working, and allow them to do it at least somewhat how they want. MS should concentrate on the OS make it small, efficient and bullet proof. Leave menu programs, browsers, email, etc. to third party programmers that have their sales dependant on how good and useable their programs are driven by the end user instead of pushing their own that do nothing more than keep the monopoly alive. If its free with the OS thats what the majority will use and thats the way MS wants it.
I personally would say each “upgrade” in MS Windows that has been released is nothing more than a SP10, a collection of fixes of program errors and poor coding.
Someone disagree and tell me one thing that MS (by MS I mean MS not buying up someone else’s program and adding it to the OS) has come out with that is part of the OS release and SHOULD be part of the OS-not just an addon application.

I agree with some of your points

In reply to Windows (like VHS) doesn’t need to improve

Microsoft’s certification is an expensive proposition for vendors to acquire for their hardware drivers. Microsoft had so many blue screens of death with earlier versions of Windows that it came to the conclusions that these system crashes were a result of bad, non compatible drivers where the code in them was creating serious issues. MS decided to come up with a certification program so they could make a few dollars from vendors and if a vendor didn’t get it certified then Microsoft would reply to complainers with the reason your system crashed is because you are using non certified software of drivers that were not designed to operated correctly with this version of Windows. Result, Microsoft is off the hook. They’ve done the same thing with their questionable support base. If you call India and can’t understand or comprehend what they are saying does it mean Microsoft hasn’t supplied you with support ? It wasn’t their fault you couldn’t understand them but then you ask why does MS have support based in India ? Well, it has to do with the cost of support to MS which is their priority, not yours. MS has done so many slippery moves in so many ways a greased snake in an Olive tree wouldn’t have a branch to lay on. This is not a bash, they are to be admired, ( by business), not necessarily by you. If you were to take and use software that isn’t yours and is a direct infringement on a companies software rights, you would be sued.
If you were sued, settled out of court for 10 million dollars would you do it again if you made a profit of 22 million ? These are all calculated actions that MS has employed to maximize profits with illegal risk factors based on the fact that they have billions to play with, legal costs and suchlike are tax deductible. MS does not lose, they adapt, shift, change and have people work hard long into the night to make sure they won’t. You can avoid supporting this by simply not buying their products and services. If you do decide to buy them, then don’t come back to the forums to complain or bash them as you were the one who bought and agreed to their terms.

I agree

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Unless they’re shoving something pretty damn impressive into GPO’s in Longhorn, there will be no reason whatsoever for business’ to switch from 2000/XP desktops, bar hardware failures. I’ve worked for corporates and have been an IT manager for a medium sized manufacturing business and once a desktop OS is stable and works with the core applications that run the business, then there simply aren’t any justifications for upgrade. I’ve been prevented in the past from upgrading to XP because certain bespoke apps, integral to the business were broken by it during testing. I think Microsoft have run out of steam regarding business desktops, for God’s sake, any business with a streamlined desktop strategy these days is running terminal services anyway where they can get away with it. WOW, we’re almost back to mainframe as the backbone to business computing!

If WOW = Vista then Vista = another reinvention of the wheel that business’ don’t need.

Oh yes, and if anyone thinks I’m missing the point of Vista etc (yawn), try asking Microsoft exactly how long they used AS/400’s to run their operations and if there’s still any in service. Back in 2003, they still were according to IBM support…

a few thoughts.

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

>forcing people to upgrade by stopping the >support for older products. So if you want

They suppoort their older OS versions longer than Pretty much anyone else.

>Windows 9x = Useless

didn’t care for 95, had lots of problems with it, by 98SE though the 9x system had become pretty solid.

>and if Linux was where it is now back then >we would all be using it today.

ummm..ok…(W.E.L.)

>Windows 2000

See, I wasn’t all that impressed by 2000. I mean the multi-user advances were great, but apart from that, kind of a brick.

>Cons: Still allows most programs to >require admin rights to run.

I don’t hink this one is MS fault. Rather it was Software developers that didn’t follow the MS programming standards.

>Windows XP = useless improvements and a

Your opinion. XP has been my favorite to date. Easy to deploy, stable, fast…

>doubled our hardware requirements.

not hardly, check the box again

>Runs wizards by default for every

Really? I didn’t think so, I mean, they were always easy to find, but they were generally just as easy to not use. Personnally, I like many of the wizards, particularly for the tasks I rarely perform. Real time-savers.

>configuration. No ?Classic Mode? to be rid

huh? Did you actually install XP yourself? You could totally make it look and act like 2k. (I set mine systems up that way for awhile, because I though all the new XP GUI stuff was ‘useless’. Then I started using the new GUI features, discoverd they actually allowed me to work more efficiently, and now I loath working on Win2k because I find it so inefficient. Perspective, I suppose…)

As for resources. I have found that the XP GUI consumes LESS ram then KDE or GNOME (I say RAM,specifically, because ‘memory’ consumption is actually higher, but becuase of some (rather intelligent) paging, XP moves much of the unneeded bits of the GUI to Disk, ultimately leaving me with more avaible physical RAM for other applications to use.

>Windows Vista = useless improvements

I was pretty bummed that pretyt much all of the really cool features didn’t make it in.

I wouldn’t say the rest is useless though. Just because you don’t know how to operate it doesn’t mean it is useless. Take the time to learn how to use it, and you might be pleasantly suprised.

That said. I am not planning on (personally) switching to Vista, simply because I don’t like the product activation. It just doesn’t sit well with me that I have to ‘ask for permission’ to use the software I just paid for. In the past 3 or 4 years. Nearly every support issue I have had, and been unable to personally resolve, has been related to anti-piracy mechanisms, and not normal program functionality. I don’t wish to pay for the ‘privilege’ of being treated like a criminal. Nor do I wish to pay their development costs for something that gives me no benefit, and in fact is hindering my ability to work.

>flashy icons (useless!).

To you perhaps, to other, icons are now themselves becoming a source of state-information, thus improving the efficiency of knowledge-transfer.

>networking-Pick a zone: Home, Work or >Public (Why??

Handy for a mobile user. It can allow relaxed security when on ‘trusted’ networks, and tighter security elsewhere.

> The UAC is not needed…

Turn it off then.

>Windows sidebar is a useless resource hog

I was quite suprised at how pig’ish this little critter is. Cool feature but, suprisingly fat.

> Telnet by default).

and I thought you were concerned about security. 😉

>Making the interface more attractive only >appeals to people who don?t understand or >concern themselves with efficiency.

I disagree. The Improvements in interface quality can allow more information to be provided more concisely and more clearly. I am glad they continue to test and improve ideas in this area. I can’t wait for the first truly functional 3D working environment.

Hit it on the head…

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

M$ has repeatedly taken the stance that what it says, goes. I couldn’t care less about the Aero-glass front-end, enhanced search capabilities (I usually know where I put my files), or internet connectivity. We use a lot of computers on the factory floor for process automation where internet connectivity is limite NOR is it desired. To configure the OS to NOT connect or want to connect to the internet is a royal pain. I believe Microsoft has shot themselves in the foot as to the only group I see using Vista are the folks who know very little about computers, buy what’s on sale at Circuit City, and then call a friend to help them “set it up.” As for business, especially in inductrial applications, it was a hugh task to get XP certified to run process applications. We set most of the XP interfaces back to “classic” anyway for ease of use. Now that Vista carries with it a massive pricetag it bodes someone to think computing has GOT to be better than this. While Linux is usually very specific in it’s application, it does have merit, especially the pricetag and portability. I agree with some of the other posts…Microsoft has set themselve above the general public and in our book…placed themselves out of the ballgame.

Unfortunate but true MS has taken a hard position

In reply to Hit it on the head…

MS has a lot of money, a lot of financial muscle to enforce a hard line on what they will do and what they won’t do. The first priority is money, how to make it, how to use it, how to protect, enforce and verify everything they touch so they have minimum cost that is tax deductible. Support is surprisingly good with respect to time frame and updates with some exceptions. Support with regards to technical brings a smile to my face as I honestly had no clue what the support guy in India said the last time I had to get XP reactivated as I had to call back and try my luck with another person who had a little less accent. The general public is not what Microsoft is really concerned about as it is the business market and the people who want their servers and online services. You are just a consumer who they really are not their main concern or priority. Big business where they have several thousand licenses and various forms of MS software used in business applications is what MS has focused on. The problem MS has is big business, like China, France and other governments outside of the US are going to linux. This is not a pitch for linux as I have Xandros 4.01 and it has shortcomings but none I really can’t live with. I use XP if and when I have to but in all honesty, I’m keeping an open eye out for the new Mac OSX Leopard which is supposed to arrive sometime in the 2nd half of 2007. MS has shifted gears and has forced everyone who wants to update XP to agree to a new XP license even though you agreed to it at the time of the original installation. I read it for a change and couldn’t agree to it so I just left XP without the updates. MS has also decided to make Directx 10 available to Vista only, why ? well it might help them in the muscle department to get you to upgrade.
DirectX has always been updatable for all supported versions of Windows but since there isn’t a lot of reasons to upgrade to Vista, they had to come up with a few. Strangely enough, they came out with OneCare which is yet another money scheme to make the secure Vista even more secure. They bundled their infamous Defender into the works to make it appear like more of a bargain but the truth is it all falls short in comparison to 3rd party security software as any choice would be a better choice. The US government will not allow Vista to be loaded so it seems as though MS is going to have to spend a little and apply some pressure on their own software developers to make Vista acceptable. MS has done more to promote Linux, Mac and Unix OS’s than anyone else out there. Microsoft does instill hope in me though as I still think I’ll be able to sell my personal services to protect the United States from killer bees by standing in a South Dakota cornfield and killing everything in sight with my, trusty, made in India flyswatter. It’s just a matter of marketing it at the right time with the right advertising agency. I wonder if Google wants a piece of the pie ?

All software goes End Of Life

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Microsoft isn’t even the worst offender.

As For writing this from an admin perspective you fail to mention things like improved group policy support and command line improvements (such as scripting defrag).

Bill

I really and truly agree with you on this

In reply to All software goes End Of Life

Microsoft is not the worst offender as there are a lot worse offenders out there when it comes to end of life support with respect to software and hardware. I was stunned when I tried to get a new driver for a MFC 3100 fax/copier/printer which was less than 3 months old. This happened when the SP1 fix came out for XP. This was a major change in the OS which cause this machine to stop working. I called Brother and they told me they didn’t have a driver and that they would not be making one available as XP was no longer compatible with their machine. I can honestly tell you this was the worst but not the last as SoundBlaster is another I had no support satisfaction from. Needless to say I always have the choice of not supporting them if they don’t support their products and I haven’t done so since. Unfortunately, MS has fallen into this group for issues that are different but no less ignorable.

end of life? not really, but… MS has to learn about its monster

In reply to All software goes End Of Life

End of life is about stoppong supporting old versions of the same feature, not stopping supporting things that worked.

Microsoft has spent too much time by devoloping Windows as a monolithic system with both a kernel and a huge GUI.

Windows 2000 was certainly perfect enough with its GUI to run a server, but it was a bad kernel.

Vista certainly has a much better kernel, but the huge GUI is just needlessly confusisve and too much monolithic.

Why Microsoft does not separate the product into several parts: a single rock solid kernel, with no advanced GUI, but that runs in console and that can even start with the minimum services, and where all services can be installed later when they are really needed?

Please make the kernel much more solid, and make it capable of supporting various virtualizations. We don’t need that GUI on servers, not even for application servers.

Make the system work in a console with a solid shell and independant ans solid addons for each service. Make each service separately manageable, explain each dependencies even if there are required settings to make it run and that each service installed must come with reasonnable defaults.

Make applications and components easier to install, manage and uninstall. Most of the registry is confusive and not needed, in fact one thing to cleanup is the registry which is not needed for most things, and that does not help moving components from one host to another. The whole system is not scalable, and unnecessarily too complex to manage for its security.

Make sure that each kernel version keeps the strongest foundations for security and make sure that each documented interface will continue toi work in future release. If some better component provides better services but is incompatible, make two distinct services and let users choose which version they need (don’t decide instead of your users about which services they need, and don’t install so many things just because you think it may be useful in your own M$ environment).

Make the GUI manage its own configuration, and keep the user interfaces that users are trained with; providing a completely new interface with a new kernel is just waste of time and resources for your customers. Many don’t need that to have stable systems, and there are tons of existing software that depend on the old GUI or on the old kernel.

It’s increadible that Microsoft did NOT even support the XP look and feel on Vista and change every place where a user can manage its system, and completely changed the task bar, the explorer toolbar, the accessories? Where is the security benefit? Nowhere; in fact it makes the system more confusive and open to errors due to lack of training.

Why do professional users have to live with the “cute” gui interface? At least on Linux, you have the choice of your interface and it remains stable. Applications can still run within everal windowing environments. The required GUI is the worst error in Vista.

In fact one could have imagined a Vista look and feel on a NT4 or Windows 2000 kernel, or a XP look and feel in Vista. Why is it impossible?

If a system is already protected by other tools, why do you force LUAC when logged on locally as an Admin?

Why can’t there be a full support for a linux-like kernel that can run linux applications?

Why can’t there be a native linux shell running on top of a Windows kernel?

Why does the kernel contain so many GUI components?

Why the filesystem is so much confusive?

why isn’t there support for the much simpler security model of Unix/Linux? i.e. with users and groups and Unix security settings?

All in Windows is not interoperable, not even between Windows versions.

Think about that: Linux and MacOSX have succeeded betcause they have a small kernel, and almost all other components are not installed by default (they are on the CDROM distribs, but you won’t install them immediately until really needed).

For running a Office application, why do you need all this GUI “features”? Aren’t all those animations just distracting? No they don’t provide more helpful features, they are just distructions for graphic geeks. They don’t make the PC more usable.

There are also too many undocumented features preinstalled on Windows, and information about them only comes much later, after long scrutiny (during years) by third-party. Requiring all those technologies without letting users choose if there’s simpler alternatives is non-sense.

Notably when this makes your existing computing infrastructure or personal knownledge or experience immediately unusable with the new version.

Yes Linux and MacOSX are succeeding because the evolution of the system is gradual.

Too many things have been introduced by Microsoft in Windows that were made part of the required features to support to get a “Designed for Windows” label, and those things were later no more part of the recommandation. That’s really ill. Pregrams have to be adapted or partly rewritten or redesigned each time. That’s completely stupid: Microsoft never feels it is accountable for the hard work it will drain on its users to adapt to each new version and because it will soon stop supporting things that worked perfectly in a much simpler way in the past. When things are rewritten, they become once again instable before getting fixed after hard work!

Microsoft just complicates the life of everyone. May be this attitude was acceptable when the adoption of computers was still low in the public; but now, exposing bilions of users to such revolution is insulting for them. Microsoft forces them to look as if they were completely stupid.

What users want now: an end to the monster. They are buying simpler devices. And small appliances just to get the things done: printers that don’t need a PC to print a photo, mobile phones that integrate an agenda without opening Outlook, harddisks that can play and share their photos, videos and music directly to their Hi-Fi or TV set, they browse the web with mobile PDA. They buy external routers instead of configuring their bloody Windows. They buy external firewalls.

One thing: one function, and a very reduced interface that can be understood but that gets the things done without giving them headaches. That’s what I call true “Plug’n Play”. But not what Microsoft did with the nightmare of devices that you buy and that immediately does not work in Windows just because some features are not supported or compatible with each other.

Windows should be really considered the prehistory huge dinausor. It will die, because since the time of dinosaurs, birds and insects have evolved and proliferated much more easily with much less dependency about their environment.

I see no future on Windows as a monolithic system. Microsoft must recognize it and return back to a simpler smaller stronger kernel without all these non-required decorations.

Everybody now had too live with all those heavy fat around Windows that he would better live without. Modernism is all about mobility and ease of evolution and adaptation.

There will still be people that will want to buy big Cherokee jeeps that eats tons of gasoline and taxes, but most people will be satisfied by buying a small cute Beetle that you can park easily in the city. They won’t put lots of luggages in it, but anyway what they appreciate is the mobility and ease of use. They feel freeer with such small cars that give them less problems everyday. In the rare cases when they’ll need a larger car, they’ll rent it. They’ll rent a concrete maker only when they’ll need it to build a fence around their garden, the rest of the time, this tool will be using valuable space and will look so ugly in their garage. So why Microsoft is selling is and installing in our gardens a beetle, a truck, a concrete maker, a gasoline dispenser and a gas tank when all the house is equiped with electricity? And a set of bad quality tools that will break the first time you use it, and will require use to buy other better tools?

And why do people have to worry about the security of those unused tools? Let people get the secure tools only when they’ll need it, and then dsipose it easily when the work is done with it.

Really, Microsoft still has a lot to learn from Apple, whose MacOSX system is far easier to manage, and whre applications are just as easy to install as drag and drop from one volume to another, without any prior installation (the same is nearly true under Linux with the RPM package distribution system, although there’s still some installation to perform, but it is still easier to manage than on Windows).

Separating the kernel and the shell…

In reply to end of life? not really, but… MS has to learn about its monster

…makes perfect sense but would require a rewrite from the ground up, Windows components being so interdependent these days. Still, it would also give them an opportunity to junk that other grim legacy – the Windoze registry. Here’s hoping!

Right On! MS Windows is a viscious circle.

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

After installing Windows XP and finding only about half of our applications would run, we removed XP and returned to Windows 98SE. At the same time, we began our migration to Linux.
At that time, Linux was a little dicey to load and get running. However, for not too technical people, Mandrake (Now Mandriva) has consistantly had distributions that install and run quite well! The more recent versions of Linux are, by far, much more user friendly and , in our opinion, Mandriva 2006 rivals any Windows version in ease of installation and operation. In our 6 years of running Linux, we have never had a virus nor spyware. When installing new hardware or software, no driver installation is required since the drivers for most popular hardware are included in the Linux kernel.
While we can see some drawbacks in switching to linux in larger corporations, we believe that the majority who have made the change are happy to have done so.

I whole heartedly agree

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Most of the improvements to the MSOS really didn’t need a New Name or new face. The most aggravating thing about MS is they continually force you to relearn everything; from the interface(where stuff is), to the names, and other things too numerous to mention here. I currently run Win2000 and am very happy with it. But as mentioned it will soon be on the MS chopping block; i.e. unsupported. Why this need to continually force all of us to upgrade, go though the pain of beta testing their products for them & then SP1, SP2, SP3……… Wouldn’t it be more prudent to SPx up to a near perfect OS and then make chargeable improvements on it??? Instead of recreating the OS or at best renaming it and changing it just enough to justify us spending our hard earned $$$’s on it. But, then there’s Visual Studio & MS Office &, & , &….. The never ending learning curve… brought to you by MicroSoft.

David M. Brefka

Why change to XP or “Vista”

In reply to I whole heartedly agree

If your happy with it why not say there until they get the patches/fixes in to what ever you want to up grade to. . . I am only running Linux and Win 2K pro now and as soon as I get 2 drivers for 2 things I am gone for ever from Windows as I will not need them any more . .
Might get your self a hard drive like oh say a 120 gig and add one of the versions from http://www.linuxcentral.com to it and see how you like it ! They got the newest greatest Debiun ( sp ) on 3 DVD’s for like $50.00 delivered to your door and it’s got a ton of stuff on it, anything and everything you could want to run is there ! Add Code Weavers Pro to it and you can run a lot of your old windows stuff on it like Microsoft XP OFFICE with all that junk that comes with it ( I have loaded it onto 4 Linux Machines and it runs good there . . NO BLUE SCREENS either )

What Blue Screens?

In reply to Why change to XP or “Vista”

I haven’t seen a BSOD since Win2K, and only once then. I’ve never seen one on XP. Ever. Bashing MS on the ancient history of BSOD is like bashing the Chicago White Sox for not having won a World Series since 1917. (They finally won in 2005.) In both cases, it’s a moot point.

What’s under the hood?

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Yes, I appreciate the comments from a usability standpoint. I guess I’m wondering what is really under the hood of these various development? For instance:

– To what extent are these various versions supporting speed of application development? New libraries?

– What security vulnerabilites (or breaches) are being quietly created or uncreated?; and

– how much of the changes under the hood are in preparation for SIP and utilizing presence?

So while the changes you describe are superficial changes… can you share any information with us about what might really be going on?

Why would You need to upgrade?

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

There’s no need to upgrade just because there is a new version of something. If Your system works, don’t upgrade. Besides, there comes a point when existing usability reaches a level that cannot be improved enough to justify cost and trouble of upgrading.

I’m still using win98, what do I need vista for? It can’t do anything new and necessary for me. The only reason I prefer win98 over win95 is the usb-support.

As for there being no support… Of course there is support for win98, not from microsoft but from lots of others.

Correction:why d’ya need to upgrade ALL components

In reply to Why would You need to upgrade?

The question about the need to upgrade is good not a question; every component in a computing system need to be evolvable, and it will fataly evolve over time just because there are new needs to solve.

But why do people have to upgrade EVERYTHING in Windows?

All what Microsoft is selling is NOT software, but LICENCES with right to use the new pieces of software. But then, why does it require to upgrade everything at the same time? Why can’t user cumulate their existing licences to get the pieces of software they are really interested in?

If Microsoft was doing like this, it would know which features are really important for its market, and which “old” features are prefered and must be kept. And there would be several versions of the ame component, with a compatible interface.

Microsoft is best known for introducing lots of migration issues at each Windows version. The monster is not manageable by people, and given that it has now billions of users, proposing a “one fits all” solution is completely stupid: people are used with their existing solutions that work and REALLY HATE Microsoft each time it makes things so that their past solutions stop being supported or stop working.

It’s like if Microsoft was the sole vendor of houses that get each time more and more expensive and where people can’t even choose which furniture they want in their home, or which equipment they want in their kitchen. And they are only given the option to change for a new house with a completely different design but absolutely no way to choose between new houses. They can’t keep their past custimizations, and can’t move in with their own furniture.

Worse: now Microsoft requires you buy your car with your house from the same vendor, and even requires you pay using a bank account and an insurance for it and for your family anf for your car from that vendor. People are let without freedom. Either they must accept the whole package and live as Microsoft wants them, or they must be left completely out of any new improvement.

And Microsoft is even barring eany alternative house builder to let inhabitants choose the house of their dream. Windows is a severe form of modern slavery: either you get rich with everything but no right to organize your life, or you get nothing and are left without any legal solution to organize your life and the life of your children.

Stop that slavery. Start thinking about true openness. It’s not just a matter of price (after all Microsoft products are not so expensive individually), but a question of freedom (because you’ll have to pay the Microsoft tax for all your life within the Microsoft world, or get banned from the society).

Classic Mode In XP

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

You said “No ?Classic Mode? to be rid of flashy interface and configuration wizards.”

This is incorrect for XP as there is “Classic Mode” for the menus, folders and desktop and Start menu”

I do this with all of my XP box’s regardless of the user’s desires. If you do this, XP will operate like, and in some case’s better than 2k.

Quick reply to user-view classic mode

In reply to Classic Mode In XP

The classic mode you are referring to is for the users (layouts and anti-candy/gel/fluff). You still get useless wizard when modifying settings. Meaning you still have to drill down to get to things that were right upfront in Win98 and even Win2k.

I Agree 100%

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

Now just apply the same philosophy to just about any other industry and you will be able to understand the way I feel when I look at the cars we make, the clothes we ware, the hair cuts we pay for, and so fourth. But the single bigest problem I believe is design flaws, it almost seems as if these flaws are purposely designed, into basically almost anything. Can you say job security, be quit thou, Im still looking for work.

I welcome “VISTA”

In reply to I Agree 100%

It gives me something to do in my spare time fixing the problems people have with it and puts money in my pocket . . So come to mama with those problems and bring MONEY !

Well as you are so willing to support the problems

In reply to I welcome “VISTA”

Have I got a customer for you. 😀

They are a small Government Department who has just moved to Vista and I made the mistake of supporting XP from the word [b]GO[/b] so M$ recommended me to fix the mess after the initial install on the small LAN that they have only 2,500 Workstations and the salesperson back then had sold XP Pro as not needing Servers so when the Governments IT Section had installed the LAN to the design that was handed to them they refused to have anything to do with it again. M$ in a fit of helpfulness recommended us to this Government Department and we fixed the mess installed the required Servers which where supplied by the Government and just setup the system correctly. Originally I thought that was the end of things but every time that a new System Admin came on board we got called in to fix something that they had broke. [i]This was about once every 2 weeks.[/i]

The trouble was that staff change over was horrendous and by the time that SP1 came out insisting that the Volume License Product Key for XP Pro was invalid the then current System Admin rang M$ Anti Piracy Hot Line and reported us as we fixed things so we must have supplied it all.

I’ve now had 3 reports of this kind to M$ Legal and I’m not the slightest bit happy with a single one of them particularly when the last System Admin insisted on Ringing M$ Again and reporting us when they pushed out WGA and the system failed again 2 weeks after pushing out SP2.

I was trying to dump that place like the plague but as no one else was silly enough and the complaints to M$ kept pilling up it was better to fix than to drop them.

Now that they have Introduced Vista Section Wide I no longer offer any service support as I don’t support Vista and hopefully I’ll keep a clean nose with M$ from now on but you are welcome to this one customer if the money is all that is important to you. 😀

OH BTW I’ll still be getting paid in about 2 years time for work already done prior to them introducing Vista they are slow payers as well as nasty customers. I’m sure that you’ll really enjoy working with them. :^0

Col

Sounds like MS !

In reply to Well as you are so willing to support the problems

I think they should have gone to LINUX this time and had less problems to deal with load the Code Weavers Pro to the linux so they could run the Windows programs most business’s use like the MS Office with the entire pile of stuff it has ( I use 3rd party stuff my self like Corel Word Perfect 12 office and Graphic’s Suite 12 ) has less problems and always works

Really?

In reply to Sounds like MS !

So, how exactly is running Linux going to fix their problems?

One of their original problems was no servers. How would Linux on the desktop fix that?

How would Linux fix their problem of incompetent Sys Admins?

How would Linux fix their problem of high turnover?

How would Linux fix their problem of paying support late?

This is laughable at best. I never really realized that Linux was so powerful, so feature rich, so complete that it was able to fix non-technical issues like these.

If I convert to Linux on my PC at home, can I stop cutting my grass? Stop doing laundry? Will it wash my car?

Your comments are silly and make you look like a fool.

The most accurate statement you’ve made yet

In reply to Really?

”
I never really realized that Linux was so powerful, so feature rich, so complete that it was able to fix non-technical issues like these.
”

But then, you where being funny and haven’t actually taken the time to learn anything about the OS outside of what your Microsoft Get the Fud pamphlet told you right?

Seriously though; That avatar icon. what’s with the blind hate? You couldn’t find an avatar that depicted the benifits of what you like so you had to pick one too denegrate what you don’t understand? Your my hero.

My Avator

In reply to The most accurate statement you’ve made yet

Has nothing to do with this.

I have, continue to use, and will continue to use Linux. It is an alternative worth looking into.

I just think Windows is better.

For the record since you think I’m a Linux novice. I have installed and used the following:

Mandriva
Red Hat
Fedora
DSL
Knoppix
KnoppMyth
Ubuntu

So, I don’t blindly hate Linux. I’m not denegrating anything. And I do understand Linux.

Nice try.

fair enough

In reply to The most accurate statement you’ve made yet

I’m no Zealot, I can accept that. I think after I posted that comment I actually read an exchange between you and someone else where you mention running Linux.

I am curious as to why your posts read like such an attack on Linux or any alternative OS though. I don’t mean that to say that you dared to speak against the holy penguin; I have no issues with valid points. In this conversation alone though, you make claims about Linux which are just not true. You seem to be looking for reasons to tear apart Linux, BSD or whatever while pusing Windows up on a pedistal like it’s the Grail.

Hopefully in my own general comments (outside of this exchange) I’ve been polite and helpfull where questions have been asked. It’s the blatant miss-information and intentinal attacks I won’t accept happily with a smile. Crap like “Linux needs more hardware than Windows” or “Windows install includes more than DSL” are just flat our wrong. After 30 years of working with Micorosft products, and 10 years with Linux; my experience and the ton of reading I continue to do on both subjects just does not support those claims.

Re: fair enough

In reply to The most accurate statement you’ve made yet

I’m not attacking Linux or any other alternative OS’s.

But I am sick and tired of TR being a sounding board for pro-open source and anti-Microsoft.

Face it, we all use whatever tool we see fit. Yours may be Linux and mine may be Windows.

Now, since both are made by human beings, both are seriously flawed. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses.

I accept Windows strengths AND weaknesses. Some Linux zealots on here (TR) never admit Linux’s weaknesses.

To pretend Linux has no weaknesses is foolish.

Please point out any statements that I have made that are false. And, I mean false. Not wrong since you disagree with me. I truly mean a false statement. Not a disagreement. You’ll be hard pressed to find one.

I never said Linux needs more hardware than Windows and I never said Windows includes more than DSL (the porton of DSL that solely lives in RAM that is).

My bottom line opinion…

Linux is a great OS but still needs some work. I deploy it where it would serve best (just like Windows) but no OS is a one size fits all.

It isn’t appropriate for my environment.

The sheer number of choices, applications, and configurations only confuses the average consumer. (Choice is good but in this case, it’s overkill).

The naming conventions suck.

It needs a company as big or powerful as MS to help market it, distribute it, consolidate it, etc.

The CLI sucks and is counter intuitive.

Since there aren’t as many users as Windows, the number of websites, supporters, stores, etc don’t compare and that is a strategic disadvantage.

I could go on and on, but again, Linux has its strengths and weaknesses and so does Windows. I have chosen Windows.

The main Problem was the

In reply to Really?

1. fix their problem of incompetent Sys Admins?
The Above is a MAJOR problem for any company which if they DO NOT FIX they will not get the rest working . . But Linux helps get some of that done with its security . . Makes the IT person not look quit so bad . .

News Flash Jackie!

In reply to The main Problem was the

Software doesn’t solve problems. People solve problems.

If they can’t hire a competent Windows Sys Admin, what the heck makes you think they are going to hire a competent Linux Sys Admin?

Besides the fact that I don’t recall Hal ever saying there was a security problem in his story.

There were problems with incompetent sys admins, no servers, WGA issues, etc.

You are using a hammer where a screw driver is more appropriate. Throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Actually

In reply to Really?

Yu could install linux and quite cutting your grass, doing laundry, and washing dishes. But soon you and your yard will both be foul.

I am a linux supporter, but in that situation, linux would have made a bigger mess of an already Circle Jrk situation.

If the IT there could not manage a windows environment, imagine open ldap and sendmail on linux =\

Wow!

In reply to Well as you are so willing to support the problems

1) About the no servers part…

That was a dumbass rep’s fault not MS. I don’t think anywhere in MS’s best practices you’d find that recommendation anywhere.

In addition, what idiot at that government department accepted their word? No multiple bids, no bid process, no second opinions?

Where was their IT staff and why didn’t they catch this? Surely, with 2,500 PC’s they had at least one technical person who would have caught this horrible recommendation.

Hell, with 2,500 PC’s I’d hope they had numerous IT staff.

I simply don’t believe your story. You’ve told it so many times I think you made it up in your head.

2) The problem with their Sys Admin’s competency isn’t MS’s fault either. They need to hire better people. Their turnover isn’t MS’s problem either. Like Tony K has already said in this forum, don’t blame MS for other people’s problems. Address, fix and repair the problems, don’t pass the buck.

3) Sounds to me if this customer is such a problem, you should drop them or write up a proposal with costs to fix their problems once and for all (and not just technical problems).

You seem too content with putting out fires and never really solving anything. Once the fire is out, you blame someone else and wait for the next fire. I seriously question your motives.

Just a bit of background information here for you Rick

In reply to Wow!

The Qld Government doesn’t accept tenders for work like this they go straight to the makers in this case M$ to tell them exactly what they need and then contract out the supply through their own IT Department which provides the software/Hardware combinations buy direct from M$ at a [b]Special Deal[/b] the Volume License Stuff and then tender out the Hardware provided which generally ends up being the cheapest junk that can be supplied to do the job.

Yes I do agree with you that it’s not M$ fault about staff turn over or incompetent System Admins but in this case it was M$ Fault telling them that they didn’t need any servers and that XP could be used as a Server, But that’s M$ Marketing Department not M$ Technical so you need to understand that when dealing with Government Departments here they work a bit different to normal business and they buy Volume License Stuff always and the hardware comes unloaded so the IT Section creates 1 Image and Bulk Load to all the computers involved.

When the IT Section of the Government insisted that this setup would not work they where overridden and told what to supply then refused to support what wouldn’t work. When I was originally asked to look in on this I couldn’t even get anyone from the Governments IT Department to talk to me and they pushed it up to some Middle Level Bureaucrat who basically said we supplied what was insisted on and are unable to support this system. I only found out much latter that they refused to support it from the word go.

[i]You seem too content with putting out fires and never really solving anything. Once the fire is out, you blame someone else and wait for the next fire. I seriously question your motives.[/i]

Yes I agree in an [b]Ideal World[/b] this is what will happen but unfortunately when there are Bureaucrats involved they [b]Know It All[/b] and can be told nothing as they are the professionals in their minds at the very least and they are unwilling to admit that they made a mistake it’s always the way that something was implemented that’s the problem it’s never their fault.

But I can quite rightly blame M$ for blacklisting the Product Keys for this Volume License of XP Pro 3 times between the original roll out and the finial time that the WGA was applied as that is defiantly M$ Fault and no one Else’s. Though because of the time between the Original Roll out of XP then SP 1 that was a reasonable time particularly as the only decent System Admin there wouldn’t implement SP 1 as they had no way of testing the thing properly and when they where transfered sideways to another mess the Substandard System Admin brought in just had to fully upgrade without testing because M$ is [b]Reliable[/b] caused some problems which may have been OK over that time period but the 2 week time frame between providing a new Product Key for SP2 and WGA is unacceptable in anyones book and only a complete [b]IDIOT[/b] would accept this as acceptable. Granted that place in question only rolled out SP2 quite late when a new System Admin was brought in and then as soon as WGA was brought out a few weeks latter rolled it out straight away which resulted in every desktop coming up next mourning as being Pirate software in the form of XP Pro and every system had to have a repair install performed on it as that is what M$ Technical insisted upon though I’m not overly sure that they knew just how many Desktops where involved as that wasn’t something that I had any control over I & my staff just had to fix the mess.

As for putting out fires that exactly what we did as we where only ever called in to [b]Put Out Fires[/b] as we couldn’t just walk in and demand to do any Maintenance Work and then expect to be paid for the time spent there when we where not requested to walk in. We where never under contract to them in a conventional sense but just involved in [b]Putting Out Fires as they Arose. Because No One Else Was Willing to do this Work.[/b]

In any Government work you need to realise that the Incompetent get Promoted up or as stated in quite a few other places to put it simply [b]The $h1te Raises to the Top[/b] so that they can cause less trouble where they where previously and more where they are now. With Government work competency isn’t important it’s Time Served that’s important and a Government Job once you reach the level of being able to make decisions is a [b]Job For Life[/b] with the only possibility of being promoted for incompetence.

You have obviously never seen a situation like this as it’s defiantly not Good Business but then again you can never accuse a Government Department of following Good Business I’ve seen examples where and entire Years Budget has been blown in 3 months and the person responsible gets promoted up several levels and then someone else is brought in to fix the mess with minimal [b]Emergency Funding[/b] that is to be paid off over the next 5 years. Hell I’ve even watched as a printer has been bounced down several flights of steps because they couldn’t fill up the lift with it as the lift was for the use of the public not the internal staff and no it’s a different department. As they had exhausted their Budget that year for new hardware they had the destroyed printer repaired even though it cost 3 times the cost of a new printer but the service costs come out of a different budget so they could keep the printer running by having it repaired and couldn’t pay the costs of a replacement.

Personally if I was the one repairing the printer I would just have pulled off the cover with the serial Number on it and placed that on a new printer of the same model and charged them out the repair at about the new cost of a printer as that way you could be sure that the thing was going to work properly instead of attempting to fix up something destroyed in the incident.

That department then paid 1 staff member to stand beside the repaired printer and close a cover when it opened slightly and took the printer off line.

Personally weather or not you believe the above I don’t give a RATS it happened and as you obviously have never had any experience with how Government Departments work your opinion means [b]Bugger All[/b] to me as you are not one who is capable of offering an informed opinion so it has absolutely no effect on my attitude to either you or your opinion.

OH Sorry to inform you I’m not alone I run this place and have 10 Techs working for me all of which have worked for me when I was working Big Business some are even from the IBM Main Frame days. Because I always treated my staff right they accepted what I did for them and appreciated just how much I stood between my department and Upper Management but as my 30 + years of experience count for nothing and your 4 years count for everything I humbly concede to your Superior opinion. :^0

Col

Really? I Don’t Know How Government Works?

In reply to Just a bit of background information here for you Rick

That’s funny, because at my last job I was a project manager under contract for a State government for 4+ years.

You assume too much!

Once again, blame MS for problems that aren’t theirs. The government is to blame, the IT staff is to blame, and you are to blame as well.

I, personally, get tired of you rambling on and on here on TR about how bad this and that is. You seem to never look introspectively and seem to think you’re perfect.

Fill me in, please, on just how Linux would have solved this government agencies problem…

I’m waiting because there is no technical fix for what you have described. That much you concede already, just not sure how MS gets so much blame here too.

Well if you know so much

In reply to Really? I Don’t Know How Government Works?

Why continue with the [b]Stupid Statements?[/b]

Now where did I ever claim that I was perfect [b]Please Enlighten Me[/b] as I’m never one to say something as stupid as that but then again I’m not going to say that M$, Linux, BSD or anything else is perfect either as that is just as Stupid!

You love M$ that’s Cool with me and I can accept it but what I can’t accept is your [b]Rabid[/b] defence of their Indefensible Business Practises where they outright lie to the customers then after the sale is made expect someone to come clean up the mess. That’s the exact reason that I walked out of IBM many years ago as the Sales Staff would sell what they had on hand and not what was required by the buyer then the Techs where expected to make it work when it was never designed for that job that it was being used for. I mean Main Frames here and not the play toys that we deal with today though to be fair I can see the wheel turning back to a replacement Main Frame and Dumb Terminals or as you would like to call them Thin Clients on the desktop.

I just quite can not figure out your work experience as you say that you’ve worked for 4 years where you are and that you started there after you got out of school and then you throw in garbage like the above I think that you are far less than truthful to begin with or chose to make up stories as you go along.

[b]You are beginning to look Inconsistent![/b]

Col

Try Again Hal

In reply to Really? I Don’t Know How Government Works?

Where have you seen me saying I’ve worked at my current employer for 4 years and it’s my first job out of college.

Perhaps that’s what you want to believe.

I have been doing IT for almost 8 years now. I’ve been a website designer, project manager and now network administrator.

Hell, I’ve been a member of TR since 2001 so your math is a bit off.

On top of my IT experience, I have a business degree and several years of management experience.

Perhaps next time you could take the time to read someone’s profile.

Vista – ironic in it’s short-sightedness

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

I agree with your POV/comments in general, and want to add three points:
a) basic lack of functionality, such as error-free tree-view drag-and-drop in Explorer, as well as lack of “real” scripting languages, are what drive me to seek other solutions.
b) i have an inherent distrust of any company that needs to issue security patches and download hotfixes on a semi-weekly basis
c) the Genuine (legit copy) verification keeps “improving” and will likely turn many users here in Spain toward Linux, a special stripped-down version named “Guadalinux”, and other solutions. Half of the WinTel boxes I’ve seen are pirate copies of one shade or another.

My dual 1.25ghz G4 unlocked the chains, my VAIO now runs Linux, and my last windows PC will likely be the one I use for supporting clients who are still shackled to the s(t)inking barge from Redmond.

Re: ironic in it’s short-sightedness

In reply to Vista – ironic in it’s short-sightedness

1) “error-free tree-view drag and drop in Explorer”

Since when? I do it everyday and rarely encounter errors…more FUD.

2) “real scripting languages”

That’s pure opinion and preference. In my opinion and my preference is I like MS scripting languages. Score is 1 to 1. It’s a tie.

3) “semi-weekly”

That’s monthly for most of us. Check Apple’s or Oracle’s record. Sure, they don’t release as often but when they do, wow, it’s a long list.

4) WGA was designed for exactly what you’re talking about. No one wants people around the world stealing software. If you do steal software, I would hope Linux is more attractive to you instead of stealing other people’s hard work.

5) As a support tech, I would hope you are running multiple OS’s. Expands one’s skills, opens up new opportunities, etc. You should be running Mac’s, Linux, and Windows. Hey, we finally agree on something.

I have read that XP is going to get a VERY Short

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

I read some where in my many e-mails that MS is going to cut XP a lot shorter than Win 2K Pro got for support! I would be supprised if it gets another year of support so you got to UPGRADE or so they think . .As for me Win 2K is about as far as I go with windows. . I will find a way to dump windows in the not to distant future . . working hard on it now . .

Oh Please!

In reply to I have read that XP is going to get a VERY Short

Before you make a fool of yourself, please educate yourself.

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifecycle

Nothing like spreading FUD to scare people into believing what you believe.

Besides the fact that making blanket statements like “Windows XP Support” as opposed to Home, Pro, Enterprise, etc, in addition to SP1, SP2, etc, you only look like a fool.

You do everyone a diservice with your comments. How about discussing the differences between mainstream support, extended support, on-line support, etc.

Windows End of Life Support (MS-bashing bandwagon)

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS Bandwagon)

As MS roles out new versions of Windows, what I have been thinking is “how can these Microsoft-bashers make ignorant comments, be too dumb to consider the functionality complicated but quick to consider Linux easy to use and come with ignorant statements that you have to double and triple the hardware requirements when Vista runs on a machine with an 800 Mhz processor and 512 MB of system memory, 20 GB hard drive with 15 GB of available space, supoort for Super VGA graphics and CD-ROM drive and I’m running it on a 3+ year old Toshiba Satellite A60-122 laptop smoothly so they can keep bashing MS products? The biggest problem *I* have is Microsoft haters like you bashing MS products by assuming they should support their OS’s for eternity. So if you are too ignorant to wish to get XP SP2 when you can get Vista you can always buy it anywhere and have unlimited support forever, even when any person that actually knows something about Vista knows it is a secure system, much more than XP.
Making the interface more attractive does only appeal to people who don’t understand or concern themselves with efficiency (A. K. A. Mac users) and that is why that is only one of the many improvements in Vista over XP, along with the following features/improvements:

– Address Space Layout Randomization (protects against return-to-libc attacks, where an attacker uses exploit code to call a system function; randomizes the function entry points for common system calls, so on a typical 32-bit Windows Vista machine, an attacker stands a 1-in-256 chance of getting the address right);

– BitLocker Drive Encryption (prevents a thief who boots another operating system or runs a software hacking tool from breaking Windows Vista file and system protections or performing offline viewing of the files stored on the protected drive);

– DirectX 10 (features enhanced 3-D graphics-rendering capabilities and helps improve computer’s in-game and multimedia performance);

– fast Sleep and Resume (combines the benefits of Standby and Hibernate modes into Sleep);

– Games Explorer (list of all games currently installed on the PC);

– high dpi support (up to 144 dpi);

– important security changes in the network stack;

– improved battery meter (for mobile PC’s);

– improved built-in diagnostics;

– improved Group Policy (manages Windows Vista networking);

– improved overall security;

– improved Self-Healing System (including boot Self-Healing System);

– improved stability (crashes less than XP);

– improved Tablet PC support (pen improvements, new touch screen support, improvements to Tablet PC Input Panel, enhanced ink erasing, handwriting recognition improvements);

– improved Windows Firewall (outgoing traffic protection);

– improved Windows Media Center (improved user interface with easier navigation and better media visualization, built-in support for archiving TV shows directly to video DVDs, faster overall performance, improved platform, support for digital cable service in the US);

– improved Windows Update (easier, less disruptive, doesn’t require/use Internet Explorer);

– improved Windows Security Center (including showing the status of software designed to protect against antispyware, the user’s Internet Explorer 7 security settings and User Account Control);

– improved wireless networking (including support for the latest wireless security protocols, like WPA2);

– Instant Search (enhanced desktop search and organization);

– Internet Explorer 7 with Protected Mode (IE cannot modify user or system files and settings without user consent);

– little details (for instance: when renaming a file, Vista only selects the name and not the extension too);

– live icons (thumbnail image of the actual contents of every file);

– live taskbar thumbnails (display the actual contents of both windows that are currently open and those that are minimized in the taskbar);

– multiple clocks;

– PatchGuard* (protects the integrity of the kernel);

– Shadow Copy (helps the user recover a file if the user accidentally deletes it);

– SuperFetch (enables programs and files to load faster than they would on Windows XP?based PC’s);

– User Account Control (prevents potentially dangerous software from making changes to the computer without the user’s explicit consent);

– Virtual Folders (saved searches that are automatically and instantly run when a user opens folders);

– Vista DreamScene (animated wallpapers);

– Windows Aero (overall improved – better-designed, high-performing – GUI);

– Windows Defender embedded;

– Windows DVD Maker (DVD burner);

– Windows Flip 3D (renders live thumbnail images of the exact contents of the open windows);

– Windows HotStart (enables the user to click a button and immediately start a program regardless of whether the mobile PC is on, sleeping, in hibernation, or off);

– Windows Mail (including Instant Search, improved junk mail filter, phishing filter, improved reliability, newsgroup features);

– Windows Meeting Space (enables the user to share work on computer based projects with other people more easily and comfortably);

– Windows Mobility Center (puts the most frequently used mobile PC settings in a single, easy-to-find location):

– Windows Movie Maker HD (edit HD video);

– Windows Photo Gallery (easier, more intuitive way to view, manage, and refine photos and home movies);

– Windows ReadyBoost (improves system memory and boosts performance);

– Windows Sidebar & Gadgets (pane on the side of the Vista desktop where the user can keep his/her gadgets organized and always available & easy-to-use mini programs that give the user information at a glance and provide easy access to frequently used tools, respectively);

– Windows SideShow (supports a secondary screen on a mobile PC, integrated device on a computer, mobile phone and/or media remote control, with which the user can view information, like reading an e-mail message, whether the laptop is on, off, or in sleep mode).

And I agree with the Wii comment too, your mistake is in comparing the Wii with MS products; you should be comparing to Macs.

Just out of curiosity

In reply to Windows End of Life Support (MS-bashing bandwagon)

Where did you get the Vista CD Setup Disc’s from?

Yes I know that M$ is offering them but I’ve yet to see them show up on M$ Price Lists. Every M$ listing that I have access to only lists the Vista DVD and not a single listing of the Vista CD Sets.

Col

I have seen some on Amazon I think it was

In reply to Just out of curiosity

There are a few places I have seen the CD’s on sale . . Seems they can’t be used by the USA Gov. as its been banned for security reasons hehehe I read this and laughed my A- – Off !
What a slap in the face for MS to have their system banned by the government for security reasons !

Well may be it’s just M$ Resellers here not stocking them

In reply to I have seen some on Amazon I think it was

But even on the latest Product Catalogue provided by M$ they don’t list the CD version of Vista.

But then again the current model Wireless Keyboards & Mice as well as the M$ Branded Finger Print Readers don’t come with Vista drivers either and M$ don’t have any drivers available which was a bit of a shock to the system the last time that I looked. 😀

Col

Do you actually believe this?

In reply to Well may be it’s just M$ Resellers here not stocking them

Does insanity run in your family?

But then again the current model Wireless Keyboards & Mice as well as the M$ Branded Finger Print Readers don’t come with Vista drivers either and M$ don’t have any drivers available

Firstly…my god, I can’t believe I actually have to explain this to someone. I’ll try to type slowly, because apparently you learn slowly…keyboards and mice, don’t NEED special drivers. The drivers have been available as part of the OS since day one. If a keyboard needs special SOFTWARE (not a driver, software. There’s a subtle difference between the two) for things like “extra keys”, then you install the software in Vista, just as you would XP. the process is the same, despite the box not specifically saying “Vista” on it. You know they did ship products before Vista that might just be still sitting on a shelf. Should MS come around to your local store and slap a Vista sticker on it to make it easier for you to grasp that? I realize it must be difficult for an end user like you to understand, but if you’re going to post on a technical forum, at least try to pretend you know what you’re talking about.

So, since the MS hardware site says their products are “Vista-able”, was your statement a lie or complete ignorance followed up with a shot of inability to actually Google “+microsoft +fingerprint +reader”? The #1 feature listed for the reader is “Convenience with Windows Vista? Features”

Let me help a little bit: when you start agreeing with Jackie, you should know you’re in trouble…

Ha, Ha, Ha!

In reply to Do you actually believe this?

Well said.

And to think most people think only Windows users spread FUD.

Yes, I said the dreaded FUD word. I’m pretty sure it’s FUD because while I don’t too much like Hal, he at times, is fairly knowledgeable.

Can’t believe he’d fumble like that.

Good catch Tony K. If I wasn’t at work doing 10 things at one time I might of caught that too.

I never used one of the finger Print readers

In reply to Do you actually believe this?

I have seen them used on TV and did not know they were real YET ! ! Been to busy working with my nose to the grindstone and have not looked up . . So I thought it would just automatically get seen by the O/S like it does in Linux O/S ! It does not make all kinds of noise and flash a screen up saying there is something new here and looking for software
Sounds like a toy I need hahaha finger print reader . . Right like I need one !

Oh, c’mon…

In reply to I never used one of the finger Print readers

Is anyone buying this anymore? There’s no way in hell this is a real person. This is some dingleberry pretending to be a stupid woman.

I have seen them used on TV and did not know they were real YET ! !

C’mon, seriously? We’re supposed to believe that you have managed to make it through the last ten years of easily-available, sub-$100 fingerprint readers and not noticed them? They’ve been around forever, but only readily available to the masses at, say, Office Max, for the last decade. You haven’t seen the commercials for IBM with the Thinkpads having them built in? Please…

Check This Out!

In reply to I never used one of the finger Print readers

First she says “I have seen them used on TV and did not know they were real YET ! !”

Hardly believable.

But then she says, “So I thought it would just automatically get seen by the O/S like it does in Linux O/S !”

She said “it” not “like other devices” or something similar. I think a slip up. Jackie is a fraud.

First she doesn’t know they even exist, then she admits they work in Linux.

Jackie, give it up!

Look at Her Profile…

In reply to I never used one of the finger Print readers

This explains alot. Straight off her profile:

“I have been a member for a lot longer but when I changed ISP’s they could not get the connection from 1 ISP to the next back so I had to RE Join !”

That is gibberish to me, however, in trying to decode this, it sounds like what she is trying to say is that she switched ISP’s and had to get a new email address.

I don’t see her point about connections, ISP’s, and TR but that’s my best guess.

News flash Jackie, your TR user name and email can be different. You didn’t have to rejoin.

I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

In reply to Do you actually believe this?

MS Multimedia Keyboards and Mice and I do mean the M$ Branded ones can be programed if you install the M$ supplied drivers. No [b]M$ Supplied Drivers no Programmable Keys![/b]

As a Platinum Partner is this an acceptable alternative to you? I guess so otherwise you wouldn’t have posted the above trash would you? As usual from the Bulk Sellers of M$ stuff push out the stuff and them complain when you can not make the techs fix the problems that you have made. :^0

Yes the Biometric Reader is Vista Compatible but the XP drivers don’t run on Vista well at least either [b]Ultimate or Enterprise[/b] I haven’t bothered with any of the others but as they will not work on the [b]Top Of The Range[/b] I find it hard to believe that they will work on the Cripple Ware being sold as the base units.

Yes I know the lies that M$ state in their Web Sites but I also know that they do not have Vista Drivers for these devices either so unless you want to attempt to install the Intelli Point 5 Drivers on Vista and hope for the best you’re stuffed. As for the Biometric Readers they plain and simple don’t work with the M$ provided Software so instead of reading the Marketing Spiel try the things and see what happens.

But for someone who claims to have sold a major Vista Roll out on the strength of the Beta Product I really couldn’t expect any better misinformation could I?

Col

! :) !

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Go get em tiger!!
]:)

You really are clueless, aren’t you?

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

No M$ Supplied Drivers no Programmable Keys!

Then, please explain to me how my MS Remote Keyboard (that was made for XP) works perfectly on my Vista Media Center? Hmmm? And, before you go scrambling for a guess, this was not an upgrade, this was a new machine, new build.

As a Platinum Partner is this an acceptable alternative to you?

What that everything works out of the box, unless you’re a useless twit? Sure, I’m fine with that, I don’t have sympathy for those who don’t what they’re doing.

make the techs fix the problems that you have made.

Sounds like you’re looking for everyone to fix the problems YOU made.

Yes the Biometric Reader is Vista Compatible but the XP drivers don’t run on Vista well at least either Ultimate or Enterprise I haven’t bothered with any of the others but as they will not work on the Top Of The Range I find it hard to believe that they will work on the Cripple Ware being sold as the base units.

Well, I’d have to take your word for it, as I don’t have one. However, given how well you seem to be able to get ANYTHING to work, I’m going to guess that you’re just doing something wrong. You haven’t shown any evidence of having a clue up until now, I’m certainly not going to take YOUR word that they don’t work.

But for someone who claims to have sold a major Vista Roll out on the strength of the Beta Product I really couldn’t expect any better misinformation could I?

Considering the beta product was rock-solid and met our needs, it wasn’t a hard sell. See, we don’t have many incompetent people (outside our Unix team, that is), so when we build things, they work. Unlike, well…you.

Well since you know so much about the virtues of Vista

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

I can not help but wonder why you have not answered one single Vista related question asked here on the Q&A section of TR.

Both Rick and you seem deadly quite in this area but I’m taking it that you are unwilling to share your vast knowledge and are quite happy for Vista to maintain the bad name that it has right?

As a Platinum Partner of M$ I would be doing everything within my power to improve this situation not compounding it but then again that’s the difference between the pair of us as one is willing to offer help and the other is just sitting back demanding money. :^0

What a crock of SH1TE you are but as you continue this way you’ll reap what you sow and deserve everything that you get. 😀

OH BTW who said anything about not getting most hardware working properly with Vista I’ve only mentioned 2 items both supplied by M$ where I’ve had problems and even when I asked about RTM you had to rabbit on about Beta junk and consider this as a Practical Solution when even M$ Download sites recommend not to place this software into Mission Critical Areas.

[b]The RTM product is supposed to be suitable for Mission Critical applications which so far it’s proved not to be all that great at achieving.[/b]

But as you know so much better than me and can explain why on Upgrades a HDD not directly loaded with Vista but are a slave drive in the same computer disappear to Vista and external HDD are unreadable to Vista even when the system has crashed and a new install of Vista is performed the same external HDD that was readable to Vista reports that it’s blank and needs formatting. I suppose that this is part of the new Vista security right? :^0

Col
[i]Edited to add[/i] You may have noticed that I’ve unsubscripted to this silly thread filled with M$ Bigots who can not see past the end of their noses as I’m busy testing the latest release of Longhorn Server which I did exactly the same with Vista over the Beta releases but I was never silly enough to consider them suitable for anything but Beta Testing unlike some nameless people here.

For those who think HAL a genius

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

I can not help but wonder why you have not answered one single Vista related question asked here on the Q&A section of TR.

Simple: not my job. Back in the day I used to participate in mailing lists and forums and the like and try to assist folks with their issues. It became tiring as 9 times of out 10, the questions they’d ask hadn’t been researched, and they just asked because it was easier than looking for the solution themselves. I’d have guys like who you can’t do anything ask a stupid question, and when I’d follow up for more info (as I’ve done with you), they’d either change the subject (like you do) or disappear (as you’ve now done with this thread). I finally decided this industry already has enough idiots in it, I’m not going to help them find their answers for them, too. Instead, I prefer to confront them on forums and point out how all of their problems are due to their incompetence (as I’ve done with you) and watch them come up with stupid reason after stupid reason (as you do) why I’m wrong, yet never once being able to contradict the facts (as you’ve been unable to do).

In other words, I pelt the ignorant with facts until they learn or shut up. Looks like you’ve chosen the latter path, as most do.

Both Rick and you seem deadly quite in this area but I’m taking it that you are unwilling to share your vast knowledge and are quite happy for Vista to maintain the bad name that it has right?

Again, not my job to do marketing for Microsoft. I’m always happy to share my knowledge with someone a) capable of understanding it or b) willing to accept it. The reputation Vista has is simply because the overwhelming majority of people in the IT industry (from the lowly support grunts, through the system admins to the developers and magazine writers) are incompetant twits who shouldn’t be allowed to operate the fry machine, let alone a computer. Is my sharing my knowledge going to change that? Doubtful. I’ve shared some with you and you haven’t learned, why should I expect differently from the others at your level? No thanks, I’ll just continue to do things the right way and look like a miracle worker, when in fact it’s just that there was a drooling mound who came before me.

As a Platinum Partner of M$ I would be doing everything within my power to improve this situation not compounding it but then again that’s the difference between the pair of us as one is willing to offer help and the other is just sitting back demanding money. :^0

Firstly, my company being a Platinum “partner” means I get access to more support options than you, as well as the occasional hotfix being created for me. It doesn’t mean we do support for them, it means they do more support for me. Secondly, the real difference between the two of us is that my help actually has some value. If you’re spreading wrong answers, misinformation and lies how exactly is that a positive?

What a crock of SH1TE you are but as you continue this way you’ll reap what you sow and deserve everything that you get. 😀

Yeah, a cushy, overpaid job at a Fortune 100 company for which I don’t have to work more than 40 hours a week is such a terrible outcome for my life. As opposed to working on home computers for a company that doesn’t give you the time or tools to do your job. Oh, whoa is me..

OH BTW who said anything about not getting most hardware working properly with Vista I’ve only mentioned 2 items both supplied by M$ where I’ve had problems

No, but I didn’t say anything about hardware, either. I said ANYTHING, OSes, RTM/Beta/Alpha versions of software. ANYTHING. You just added the cream when you mentioned you couldn’t get a keyboard to work. The fingerprint reader I could let you slide if you couldn’t get that to work if you hadn’t constantly and consistently mentioned item after item that you couldn’t get to work that install easily and flawlessly for everyone else.

and even when I asked about RTM you had to rabbit on about Beta junk and consider this as a Practical Solution when even M$ Download sites recommend not to place this software into Mission Critical Areas.

No, putz, you specifically ASKED me about the Beta product. Reread your post:

But for someone who claims to have sold a major Vista Roll out on the strength of the Beta Product I really couldn’t expect any better misinformation could I?

And, who said I was putting this in mission critical areas? I said we were looking to do a rollout of Vista to our desktops. I didn’t say we’re looking to do a rollout of Vista BETA to our desktops. The Production version is what’s being rolled out. And, to reiterate my point: the beta product was rock-solid and met our needs. There were no significant changes between the final beta and the production version that affected our environment, apps used by users, etc. The production version, however, did go through a thorough regression testing as well before we made our final decision. That decision wasn’t made until we were confident of what we’d be rolling out, which was not the beta. Seriously, try to keep up.

The RTM product is supposed to be suitable for Mission Critical applications which so far it’s proved not to be all that great at achieving.

For you, and other incompetent people like you.

But as you know so much better than me and can explain why on Upgrades a HDD not directly loaded with Vista but are a slave drive in the same computer disappear to Vista and external HDD are unreadable to Vista even when the system has crashed and a new install of Vista is performed the same external HDD that was readable to Vista reports that it’s blank and needs formatting. I suppose that this is part of the new Vista security right? :^0

Honestly, I’ve had to reread that four or five times, and I’m still not sure what you’re asking. But, I’ll wager the answer is: because you set it up? Seriously, if you install a piece of software (including an OS) and then reinstall it and it does something completely different, then YOU have told it to do something different. It’s really that simple. The software comes off the disk the same way every time, it doesn’t change unless YOU tell it to do something different.

I’ll give you an analogy: we build all of our boxes (desktop, server or virtual server) using images. We build a base image containing the OS, required software, tweaks, changes, hotfixes, etc and when we need to build a new box, we start with that. Why? Because every machine that’s built from that image has exactly THREE significant differences: the name, the IP address and the SID. Everything else is exactly the same. Last year, we had a server vendor in here and we were discussing with him their recommended build process and he gave us a hard time when we told him we built from images. His exact words were “I don’t think that’s a good way to do things. I’ve used imaging in the past, and things just don’t always come out right. Sometimes differences just creep in.” I then proceeded to explain to him a) you may as well stop now, you’ve just forced us to make the decision that your company will not be getting our business because b) what you essentially just said compares to “I put a piece of paper on the copier with words that were in English. I made ten copies and three of them came out in French.”

Computers are consistent. Software is consistent. You tell it to do something at three different times, it’ll do it exactly the same way every time UNLESS YOU HAVE CHANGED IT BETWEEN INSTRUCTIONS! Even if there’s a bug in the software, it will work consistent given the same set of precursory events. This is a most basic tenent that you can’t grasp, and without it you will be the one to be consistent…in failure. It’s this ability to grasp consistency that is the heart of troubleshooting issues. There are no “gremlins”.

You may have noticed that I’ve unsubscripted to this silly thread filled with M$ Bigots who can not see past the end of their noses as I’m busy testing the latest release of Longhorn Server which I did exactly the same with Vista over the Beta releases but I was never silly enough to consider them suitable for anything but Beta Testing unlike some nameless people here.

Too bad you didn’t name them because I don’t remember reading about anyone doing that. I’dve blasted them, too, had I read that!

So, why did I write this if I didn’t think HAL was going to read it? ‘Cause I know others would. If you think anything HAL has to say is either useful or correct, you really should be considering another field as IT is not for you. I don’t bash HAL because he doesn’t like MS products. I couldn’t care less what he or anyone else uses. I use open source products all day, every day. Right now, I’m writing this missive in Scite so I can edit it in something larger than the textbox provided. I’ll then past it into my browser which is Firefox…which is running on the Ubuntu Linux install that I have running using coLinux as a service on my machine and is displayed on my screen via Xming. Why? Suffice it to say the way our Security team has setup our new proxies, it’s easier and better for me to use my browser on a non-Windows box. That’s not a limitation of the OS, but the software they use. If I were to decry open source software, I’d be a major hypocrite…like HAL.

HAL apparently spends his days as a schlub working for some mom-and-pop shop fixing home computers for the great unwashed masses. He complains all day long about the software he works with rather than just learning how to fix it. He passes the buck to anyone that’ll listen because he knows most people are as ignorant as he is. If anyone challenges him, he’ll throw up things he’s done wrong again and again, all the while claiming it’s someone else’s fault (usually MS). When those challenges are met, he responds by changing the subject and/or offering another failure as proof. When simple solutions are provided, he says they don’t work (such as “there’s no drivers for the keyboards”…yes there are…”they still don’t work for anyone”…they work for me…”you’re just an MS bigot and I’m not listening anymore!”) and either presents a new challenge or just leaves.

I do what I do because I’m damn good at it. People like HAL, however, just bring the whole industry down.

Amen!

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

TechRepublic is, unfortunately, full of whiners, complainers, and incompetents.

If they spent half their time fixing things instead of complaining, they’d have nothing to complain about.

Tony K explain this then

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

You typed
The software comes off the disk the same way every time

Why is it then that a pc with windows xp installed?
With no hardware changes
Has had windows xp installed when new
Was activated over the Internet
Then after some time has passed
Has windows xp (same disk, same key code) reinstalled
And yes the hard disk was wiped
Then has to be activated by phone and cannot be activated over the Internet

I guess that?s the same then?

GB’s Explanation

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

I guess that’s the same then?

Huh, I guess you couldn’t have come up with a more “same” situation. Yes, it IS the same, that’s why you had to reactivate it, because it was the same. You installed the OS on the same hardware, it generated the same internal key, but still needed to be activated. Since you wiped the hard drive, and the installation CD is read-only, how does it know you’ve activated it? Magic? Your “same” computer went to the Internet when the OS finished loading to activate and the activation server said “Hey, I’ve already got an activated OS with that key, something’s fishy.” You then needed to contact a human to sort it out. I’m really not sure how this is so difficult a concept to grasp…

Tell you what, why don’t you explain what you think happened? We’ll make it even easier, here’s a situation with no significant variables: you install a copy of the OS on a machine using a disk that has an unattended script on it. As soon as the OS has finished loading entirely, you then wipe the hard drive and install the OS again with the same disk with the same unattended script. Other than the SID, what’s different and why? Here’s a hint: any answer other than “nothing” is completely wrong.

Also note I didn’t specify an OS because you can substitute any OS and it doesn’t change the question or answer. (Well, except for taking out “Other than the SID”, of course)

re GB’s Explanation

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

So you don?t know much about windows activation
Perhaps you should read up about it and get back to me?
and by the way Microsoft have an activation data base

For those who think HAL a genius

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Now is that the Hal.DLL in Windows or the person who uses the Avatar of HAL 9000 on TR with computer related items you need to be specific and not sloppy with your data or as they say with all OS’s [b]Garbage In = Garbage Out[/b]

Now lets have a truly dispassionate look at your posting here.

[i]Simple: not my job. Back in the day I used to participate in mailing lists and forums and the like and try to assist folks with their issues. It became tiring as 9 times of out 10, the questions they’d ask hadn’t been researched, and they just asked because it was easier than looking for the solution themselves. I’d have guys like who you can’t do anything ask a stupid question, and when I’d follow up for more info (as I’ve done with you), they’d either change the subject (like you do) or disappear (as you’ve now done with this thread). I finally decided this industry already has enough idiots in it, I’m not going to help them find their answers for them, too. Instead, I prefer to confront them on forums and point out how all of their problems are due to their incompetence (as I’ve done with you) and watch them come up with stupid reason after stupid reason (as you do) why I’m wrong, yet never once being able to contradict the facts (as you’ve been unable to do).

In other words, I pelt the ignorant with facts until they learn or shut up. Looks like you’ve chosen the latter path, as most do[/i]

In simple short terms that all means I don’t know what it is I’m talking about or put another way [b]If you Can’t Blind them with Science Baffle them with BS![/b] Truly great idea work with something that you have absolutely no idea how it works and think that you are brilliant because you are an [b]ID10T![/b]

[i]Again, not my job to do marketing for Microsoft. I’m always happy to share my knowledge with someone a) capable of understanding it or b) willing to accept it. The reputation Vista has is simply because the overwhelming majority of people in the IT industry (from the lowly support grunts, through the system admins to the developers and magazine writers) are incompetant twits who shouldn’t be allowed to operate the fry machine, let alone a computer. Is my sharing my knowledge going to change that? Doubtful. I’ve shared some with you and you haven’t learned, why should I expect differently from the others at your level? No thanks, I’ll just continue to do things the right way and look like a miracle worker, when in fact it’s just that there was a drooling mound who came before me.[/i]

Which put simply anyone who doesn’t agree with my unsupported ideas is a moron and I can’t be bothered talking to them to help them understand what I don’t know.

[i]Firstly, my company being a Platinum “partner” means I get access to more support options than you, as well as the occasional hotfix being created for me. It doesn’t mean we do support for them, it means they do more support for me. Secondly, the real difference between the two of us is that my help actually has some value. If you’re spreading wrong answers, misinformation and lies how exactly is that a positive? [/i]

[b]I really like the beginning of this paragraph [i]Firstly My Company[/i] meaning that you own the company and everyone that works there do as you tell them to do right?[/b]

So put simply it says that you do bugger all to help the customer who at the end of the day pays your wages/salary. Great business model screw everyone as much as possible and then when you send them broke there is always someone else to take their place and line up to hand me all their money. God I don’t know what you are on but you sure as hell need some help as that is the worst possible way to keep long term customers and a really great income stream let alone develop a [b]Reputation for Honesty and Integrity.[/b] If anything it will create the exact opposite and that my friend is exactly why people are unwilling to listen to the constant stream of drivel that keeps spewing from your lips on any posting here. You are a [b]Pathetic Joke[/b] who knows nothing about how Windows works even my son who is 32 years old and only plays games on a computer known more about the workings of Windows that you admit to knowing. Incidentally those Patches that M$ supply you with are nothing more than Beta Patches and you are working as a Beta Tester for them. Also you are making a massive assumption that you get better support from M$ than I do and I would like to see you support that statement with some fact as it’s both incorrect and totally flaky just like you are. Filled with delusions of Grandeur and nothing else.

[i]Yeah, a cushy, overpaid job at a Fortune 100 company for which I don’t have to work more than 40 hours a week is such a terrible outcome for my life. As opposed to working on home computers for a company that doesn’t give you the time or tools to do your job. Oh, whoa is me.. [/i]

Typical Upper Management over paid under worked and given a Golden Handshake when you are forced out because of incompetence but at every opportunity you are one of those who take steps to cut costs by firing those who are responsible for making the company money and then wonder why the company is no longer as profitable as it was previously so you cut even more money making staff till you reach the stage of totally incompetence and bankrupt the company. The only up side of a situation like this is that the true workers walk out with Integrity and a good reputation among the competition where as the upper management walk out expecting to repeat their stuff ups all over again and get a bonus for bankrupting several more companies. All short term profit for this quarter and no look at the long term company growth. Again fantastic company policy that always leads directly to Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Protection which is unique to the US where stupidity is rewarded instead of letting the strongest and fittest survive.

[i]No, but I didn’t say anything about hardware, either. I said ANYTHING, OSes, RTM/Beta/Alpha versions of software. ANYTHING. You just added the cream when you mentioned you couldn’t get a keyboard to work. The fingerprint reader I could let you slide if you couldn’t get that to work if you hadn’t constantly and consistently mentioned item after item that you couldn’t get to work that install easily and flawlessly for everyone else. [/i]

Define flawlessly for everyone else? If that means do the special keys work yes it does but it doesn’t mean that you can program them like you could on XP with the XP drivers to personalise what you need on the Keyboard. I don’t need to Log Out Option on the Keyboard but I do need the ability to bring up my Computer and if you can program the keyboard like you could with the IntelliType 5 Drivers in XP that is what is supposed to happen instead of being stuck with the [b]One Size Fits All[/b] approach supplied by M$ for their Hardware on Vista. But having programmable keys is confusing isn’t it so why whould M$ want to continue to support that option which has been available since they started selling hardware.

[i]And, who said I was putting this in mission critical areas? I said we were looking to do a rollout of Vista to our desktops. I didn’t say we’re looking to do a rollout of Vista BETA to our desktops. The Production version is what’s being rolled out. And, to reiterate my point: the beta product was rock-solid and met our needs. There were no significant changes between the final beta and the production version that affected our environment, apps used by users, etc. The production version, however, did go through a thorough regression testing as well before we made our final decision. That decision wasn’t made until we were confident of what we’d be rolling out, which was not the beta. Seriously, try to keep up.[/i]

Please explain where in any business except a Computer Test Lab is there any place for computers that isn’t Mission Critical? No working computers means no work is performed and that in no shape or form can be considered as acceptable by any company no matter the size. God a 3 person company can not survive for more than a few hours when their ISP goes off line and they are unable to collect and send something as simple as E-Mail but you would have us believe that it’s acceptable to have an entire section of one business have their computers fail and this isn’t a problem. [b]Again what Planet do you come from and what mind altering drugs are you ingesting?[/b]

[i]For you, and other incompetent people like you.

But as you know so much better than me and can explain why on Upgrades a HDD not directly loaded with Vista but are a slave drive in the same computer disappear to Vista and external HDD are unreadable to Vista even when the system has crashed and a new install of Vista is performed the same external HDD that was readable to Vista reports that it’s blank and needs formatting. I suppose that this is part of the new Vista security right? :^0

Honestly, I’ve had to reread that four or five times, and I’m still not sure what you’re asking. But, I’ll wager the answer is: because you set it up? Seriously, if you install a piece of software (including an OS) and then reinstall it and it does something completely different, then YOU have told it to do something different. It’s really that simple. The software comes off the disk the same way every time, it doesn’t change unless YOU tell it to do something different.[/i]

Sorry but I didn’t set it up and I didn’t even touch this particular computer it was a question asked here on TR in the Q&A Section which you have already stated you don’t know the answers for so there is no way that you could be expected to answer the question as you claim that you don’t know.

[i]I’ll give you an analogy: we build all of our boxes (desktop, server or virtual server) using images. We build a base image containing the OS, required software, tweaks, changes, hotfixes, etc and when we need to build a new box, we start with that. Why? Because every machine that’s built from that image has exactly THREE significant differences: the name, the IP address and the SID. Everything else is exactly the same. Last year, we had a server vendor in here and we were discussing with him their recommended build process and he gave us a hard time when we told him we built from images. His exact words were “I don’t think that’s a good way to do things. I’ve used imaging in the past, and things just don’t always come out right. Sometimes differences just creep in.” I then proceeded to explain to him a) you may as well stop now, you’ve just forced us to make the decision that your company will not be getting our business because b) what you essentially just said compares to “I put a piece of paper on the copier with words that were in English. I made ten copies and three of them came out in French.”

Computers are consistent. Software is consistent. You tell it to do something at three different times, it’ll do it exactly the same way every time UNLESS YOU HAVE CHANGED IT BETWEEN INSTRUCTIONS! Even if there’s a bug in the software, it will work consistent given the same set of precursory events. This is a most basic tenent that you can’t grasp, and without it you will be the one to be consistent…in failure. It’s this ability to grasp consistency that is the heart of troubleshooting issues. There are no “gremlins”. [/i]

Please stop it as I’m about to burst with laughter at these stupid statements. Here’s one then if everything remains the same why on one occasion did I get an error message that [b]Device 6[/b] was missing and then after a wipe and reload everything worked perfectly? Same hardware some software and different results and back in those days you only had 4 X 3.5 inch floppies so there was nothing that you could do differently on the primary install. I’m also amused with your idea that hardware always works perfectly and never gives any problems and the same apples to software. This is so laughable that it doesn’t even deserve a comment so I’m not going to bother trying to explain why different things can happen on the same Hardware and Software as you are incapable of understanding it by your own admission.

[i]So, why did I write this if I didn’t think HAL was going to read it? ‘Cause I know others would. If you think anything HAL has to say is either useful or correct, you really should be considering another field as IT is not for you. I don’t bash HAL because he doesn’t like MS products. I couldn’t care less what he or anyone else uses. I use open source products all day, every day. Right now, I’m writing this missive in Scite so I can edit it in something larger than the textbox provided. I’ll then past it into my browser which is Firefox…which is running on the Ubuntu Linux install that I have running using coLinux as a service on my machine and is displayed on my screen via Xming. Why? Suffice it to say the way our Security team has setup our new proxies, it’s easier and better for me to use my browser on a non-Windows box. That’s not a limitation of the OS, but the software they use. If I were to decry open source software, I’d be a major hypocrite…like HAL.[/i]

Another unsupported statement please expand and explain why this is so and prove it.

[i]HAL apparently spends his days as a schlub working for some mom-and-pop shop fixing home computers for the great unwashed masses. He complains all day long about the software he works with rather than just learning how to fix it. He passes the buck to anyone that’ll listen because he knows most people are as ignorant as he is. If anyone challenges him, he’ll throw up things he’s done wrong again and again, all the while claiming it’s someone else’s fault (usually MS). When those challenges are met, he responds by changing the subject and/or offering another failure as proof. When simple solutions are provided, he says they don’t work (such as “there’s no drivers for the keyboards”…yes there are…”they still don’t work for anyone”…they work for me…”you’re just an MS bigot and I’m not listening anymore!”) and either presents a new challenge or just leaves.[/i]

Pity that you are both illiterate and a fool as none of this is even close to being correct but I will admit to never wanting to move up the management ladder any higher than Tech Support and that was for several big business where I isolated the stupidity of Senior and Upper Management from my team who actually brought in the money that the Upper Management used to pay themselves outrageous Bonus with because of their incompetence. So you are looking at bonuses earned by people like me to pay your way I find that amusing and at the same time you would be criticising support staff that I used to run as an unnecessary expense that can be done without. 😀

[i]I do what I do because I’m damn good at it. People like HAL, however, just bring the whole industry down.[/i]

I couldn’t agree more you are Dam good at BULL SHITING People and stealing from them because you are not technically inclined enough to know any better and you by nature are a thief. I on the other hand used to have to walk in and fix up the mess that incompetent people like you made and I got sick and tired of fixing up other peoples mistakes who where paid outrageous bonuses for their total incompetence.

Just think on this without the techs to support you just how long do you think that you would last in your cushy orifice with the big picture windows and that marvellous view? I can tell you right now about 2 weeks max and then you would be fired and thrown out onto the street where you belong. Unfortunately you in your stupidity are dragging others along with you and you find that when people like Rickk support your thoughts this makes your opinions stand up and look believable when actually you are only misleading yourself and worse still misleading others who know no better. Perhaps when you bankrupt the current company that you are working for you can move into Government Work as that also rewards ignorance but as yet has never been forced into Bankruptcy.

Also I haven’t walked away as unlike you I work for a living and it’s not a 9 to 5 job where I can sit back and pick my nose and do as I please, that’s exactly what it was supposed to be 16 years ago when I setup this company I would work maybe 2 days per week and have the rest of the time to play with my toys but it didn’t quite work out that way as I saw an opportunity with Small Business something that up till that time had been completely overlooked by everyone and when 10 of my previous employees approached me with a list of clients so long that I couldn’t refuse I took on something that I do own and I don’t have delusions of grandeur and if you think that I run a small operation I only had 8 Staff working for me when I worked at IBM as State Technical Director that covered the entire State now with 15 Techs I only cover Brisbane so if anything I’m bigger than IBM Main Frame department was all those years ago when I ran it.

Also why you are at the explination please explain when I ever refereed to myself as a Genius or anything along those lines. While you may like comparing yourself to this type of person I’m mealy a grunt who’s had over 30 years of practise and know a little and while I am considered as an Expert Witness by the Legal Fraternity it is not a label that I ever place on myself but then again I don’t use my education qualifications either.

Col

Hal is an Arrogant, Little…

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Prick.

“unique to the US where stupidity is rewarded instead of letting the strongest and fittest survive.”

Whatever man! Back that up with some proof. In particular, back it up with some proof that our system here in the US is any better or worse than your system there.

Ironic, as the success of the US grows how more and more people “hate” us yet they are dying by the thousands every day trying to sneak in.

So, what is it that caused you to reveal such a hate for the US all of a sudden? That was a pretty strong statement and I’d be willing to bet there’s more where that came from…

I am still waiting Tony K

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Perhaps some more info will help
I will add this
The computer one of many had been activated over the Internet several times before
I was amazed by the fact that I DID NOT have to phone Microsoft on these occasions (Not really)
The Microsoft activation server records information about the computer that is being activated
So that their customers DO NOT have to phone them every dam time they reinstall windows
The need to reinstall windows being one of it?s longest lasting features
The statement ?Then after some time has passed? was in this case about 18 months
But I guess I was expecting too much from you
And why would I want to go through the long and tedious process of installing windows more than is absolutely necessary not to mention the never ending stream of patches
Yes I know Microsoft likes to call them updates funny how most of them are for their cock-ups
Sorry is that critical updates gee must be so important
Surprising it works at all

Hurray for the USA

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Where he who has the most money wins

Seems to be
That the same apply’s to software companys that make os’s

Re: GhostBrowser

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

He who judges a man as successful or not by the amount of money he has, has the biggest problem of all.

Perhaps your problem and Hal included, about the US, is you totally misunderstand us and it is your failing and not mine that you don’t know any better yet jump to so many conclusions.

I am very successful. I make a fair pay for a fair day’s work. No more, no less.

But I’m very successful in life as I have a wife, 4 kids (two of whom are 4 month old twins that both almost died being born so premature).

I own a house, 3 cars and live comfortably.

My life is very full, very fun, very exciting, very fulfilling, very happy.

And I’m not the wealthiest. But I’m doing Ok.

But I have noticed that a good portion of the world “hates” the US and I can only attribute that to jealousy.

But let one thing be clear here. In the US, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing anything that they want to do.

Sure, there are plenty of barriers in the way. But, hey, life isn’t easy and if it was, the rewards wouldn’t be so satisfying now would they?

Easy little boy you might blow a tear duct and keep crying for the rest of

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Your merger little unimportant life.

[i]Whatever man! Back that up with some proof. In particular, back it up with some proof that our system here in the US is any better or worse than your system there.

Ironic, as the success of the US grows how more and more people “hate” us yet they are dying by the thousands every day trying to sneak in.

So, what is it that caused you to reveal such a hate for the US all of a sudden? That was a pretty strong statement and I’d be willing to bet there’s more where that came from… [/i]

[b]Proof in 2 words Rickk, Tonyk nothing more required.[/b]

Incidentally what makes you think that everyone wants to get into the US? I’ve been there been asked to work there and the pay is terrible and the living conditions worse. Granted $15.00 an hour might look great to a Mexican who is expecting 50 cents a day but to anyone else you lot are under paid and overworked well at least those who work and not the slimy Management who are only out for obscene bonuses at everyones else’s expense. [b]Greed is Good[/b] sound familiar? It doesn’t work anywhere but in the USA. :^0

OH Yea I really hate everything US that’s why I buy Snap On Tools only, Bell Crash Helmets which incidentally are now made in Italy because they cost too much to make in the US.

Actually besides the Snap On Tools I’m not sure of anything else actually made in the USA any more sure some things like aircraft are assembled but I don’t seem to find too much of the actual parts being made in the US so the US is now nothing more than a Giant Assembly Plant for foreign made parts and if you in your ultimate wisdom where stupid enough to invoke a major confrontation with the real world you lot would run out of disposable military items in a few months with no hope of resupply.

Also your 81 Trillion $ Deficit doesn’t bear close attention as you can only print more money for so long before you have to pay the piper and become another USSR.

Personally I like to visit the US but I would hate to live there, with what the pay rates that I was offered there I couldn’t be bothered getting out of bed in the morning let alone going to work for substandard Pay & Conditions and lousy Medical as well as overpriced Pharmaceuticals. You honestly don’t know just how badly you are off and until you become China’s door mat and will continue with this idiot belief that you are actually important.

Please tell me just one major Item that is made in the USA? I do mean made not assembled with foreign made parts though.

And thanks for the little prick comment as I haven’t been called that in over 30 years so now I feel much younger and willing to kick your A$$ all over the globe because of your stupidity. :0

Col

Edited to add this bit of humour [i]I am very successful. I make a fair pay for a fair day’s work. No more, no less.

But I’m very successful in life as I have a wife, 4 kids (two of whom are 4 month old twins that both almost died being born so premature).

I own a house, 3 cars and live comfortably.

My life is very full, very fun, very exciting, very fulfilling, very happy.

And I’m not the wealthiest. But I’m doing Ok.

But I have noticed that a good portion of the world “hates” the US and I can only attribute that to jealousy.

But let one thing be clear here. In the US, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing anything that they want to do.

Sure, there are plenty of barriers in the way. But, hey, life isn’t easy and if it was, the rewards wouldn’t be so satisfying now would they?[/i]

And when the divorce rate of the 75% of US marriages that end that way come through what exactly will you have left? Big deal you own a house or do you actually have the Bank/Credit Union own it and you are paying them off? There is a big difference between the two and how much of the actual land do you own if you have actually paid off the house? The Top 3 Inch’s or so and only provided that you pay your bills on time as well. 😀

Personally I would be terrified if I only owned 3 cars and one house but if this helps I do currently have 3 Classic Mercedes being stripped and made into 1 car and being taken back to bare metal and totally restored inside and out and this isn’t even a daily driver.

Have a very close look at the Greenback and see exactly what it is doing in comparison to the Cross Rates and then you just might begin to wake up to the problems that you have in that country and need attention now and not be dumped into the next Presidents Lap to solve. Your country is currently about 12 months behind the USSR before it failed totally and fell to pieces. Sorry but that’s not hatred just fact and currently the present administration is deflecting attention away from their pathetic Handling of the Economy and making you lot scared of outside attack you are currently back to the [b]Reds Under The Beds Era of the 1950’s.[/b] 😀

Live in a country at war ?

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Sure if you don’t know any better

Hey Hal, any IT person wanting to move here better do it PDQ!

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070504_002027.html

🙁

Before anyone gets started on me… I have questions about the truth of the article.

I didn’t to get in on the US/Ausie debate but here I am

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

This bit was just too much;

“But I have noticed that a good portion of the world “hates” the US and I can only attribute that to jealousy.”

Why is it that anyone who speaks against the US suddenly hates it because they are jelous? You don’t think bombing a country back to the stone age over oil is reason enough? Perhaps the US administrations mandate to be the worlds older brother causes some to question the US? The US patent system is a whole other monster in it’s own insanity.

Don’t think I’m just harping on the US. I don’t attribute the actions of an indavidual as representative of the whole nation any more than I attribute the actions of the questionable administration as representative of the indavidual. I’m just pointing out that your one liner is complete BS and that perhaps, if you’d take a step back and look, you may see there are some valid reasons why the US (as a nation) is being questioned more by those pesky non-US 90% of the world.

Here’s a hint; it’s nothign to do with money and very much to do with how your nation behaves currently in world politics.

To the american indavidual; we’re all in this together. To the american administration; you provide entertaining news but I’m glad your not representing my nation.

It’s ok though Rikk, you don’t have to feel my opinion has any validity since I’m an Australian Canadian with dual citizenship. That’s gotta be like two huge points against me right there.

Hi there Ropes. B-)

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

As it’s now official that I [b]HATE[/b] everything American because Rickk [b]said so and he is always right because he said so[/b] I guess that now means that I have to call you nasty names and deride you at every chance possible right. 😀

So here goes having worked for IBM I find that story so believable that it’s not funny. Granted it may be a Spoof but it sounds so much like IBM Management that it’s believable. I’ll never forget just how narky the Management got here when they realised that I had effectively taken over the sales department and sold the customers what they needed and not what the salespeople where supposed to sell that would never have worked but as they had plenty of stock ordered because it was cheap they thought that they needed to sell it. Granted this was only [b]Main Frame[/b] related and I as head of the Service Department was selling the customers what they needed and not what the sales people where told to sell and the sales people where only too happy to go along with my sales as it meant bigger commissions for them for selling the expensive stuff so everyone was happy except the inept management who where ordering the wrong stuff. :^0

If you want to ruin a company really fast put a Bean Counter in charge of it and then allow them to make decisions that adversely impact on the companies performance. They will all make a short term massive profit by selling off everything that the company owns and then resign with a [b]Golden Handshake[/b] for making so much money over at most an 18 month period when actually all that they managed to do was sell everything of any use to the company and reduce the workforce to middle and upper management who got all the perks and obscene bonuses for productivity improvements when actually there where no productivity improvements because there was no longer any productivity. After all how can you have productivity when there is no one to do the work? :0

Doesn’t matter which company or country you are in the end result is always the same the company goes under though they may linger on for a few years in their death throws but as by the time that the first Bean Counter has resigned the damage that is beyond repair has already been done and there is no hope of recovery but the books look good for the short time that this [b]IDIOT[/b] was there and then when it’s impossible for the next person to repeat the performance that was shown by the previous Bean Counter they get fired well actually their contract gets bought out at a horrendous cost and someone else is appointed who can do no better than the person that they are replacing and because of the different methods employed they wreck any chance that the guy that they replaced ever had of rebuilding the business again.

Look at IBM any thing decent that they develop and bring to manufacture recently gets sold off and they are prevented from participating in that part of the market for generally speaking a 5 year period and the previously great products get turned to total crap well that goes for everything except the HDD plant as those Death Stars where terrible to begin with. :^0

Anyway have a great day and look after yourself. Whoops does that mean that Rickk was [b]Wrong Again?[/b] 😀 :^0 😀 :^0

Col ]:)

Hey Hal

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

:^0

If you didn’t have a clue about what you’re talking about over here I might be offended

That isn’t the case.

I would like to know where those $15.00/hr jobs are that you mentioned? I remember seeing them back in the early 90’s but those same jobs are paying less than that now.

Something’s wrong with that picture.

I was just reading at “unnamed state employment website” that there are 250,000 people in my state having to work 2 full-time jobs to make ends meet. One counselor has 60 people who have been looking for work for over a year. But, of course, anyone who wants to work can work so they must just be lazy b@stards.

They posted a sign for a job at the local McDonalds restaurant first thing in the morning, Thursday. By the time I read it at noon it had been filled and they had over 30 applications according to the manager I talked to.

Twenty-nine or more lazy b@stards on the streets still looking for work.

Once I got out of the city, on the 6 mile trip home today I counted 13 homes for sale. Several were vacant. There are 4 homes for sale on my road alone. They’ve been for sale for a long time now.

I was talking to a friend of mine about that. Where he lives, he said there are six homes for sale all in a row counting his own.

I think I just depressed myself.

😐

Go ahead and call me any names you want. I think I’m going to start keeping score and awarding points for creativity so put some effort into it.

Oh yeah, re: American manufactured products

We still manufacture genyouwine 100% Made-in-America BullShlt for domestic and foreign consumption. A lot of people buy it.

Bean Counters

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

So does that mean anybody who doesn?t know?
?The quickest way to kill a company is to put an accountant in charge?
Is not trying hard enough and deserves to be hungry and poor?
Slackers

Lets see now the Americas cup
No Aussie boat and the American boat has a kiwi skipper

Any comments

ropes; briliant, that made my day.

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

nt

America’s Cup???

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Sorry wrong answer as originally it was called the 100 Gunnie Cup and supplied by a Pom who offered this trophy for a sail boat race which the Americans promptly won and took home with them and then altered the rules so that they where unbeatable for a 100 years or so.

Maybe I should have listed sailing in my Bio but as I’m no longer allowed to sail Sydney Hobart’s :_| or more importantly the Whitsunday Races I don’t get on the water that much now as there are no teams wanting part time crew most of the time and navigators are currently a dime a dozen.

[b]SWMBO[/b] has put her foot down and insisted that I never sail another Sydney Hobart after the not so great race a few years ago where several people died and more importantly boats just sunk. So that means no Sydney Hobart so no Sydney Brisbane or Brisbane Gladstone and so on all of which was good fun which ended up at the Whitsundays for a drunken round of racing.

Mind you the Figure Head Competitions where very heavily worked upon and brought a lot of attention to the different yachts. 😀

Col

Re: Neon Samurai and Iraq

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Surely you can come up with something better than going to war for oil!

That is so inaccurate and over used. C’mon man, use some creativity and stop accepting your spoon feeding from the far left.

Funny how you preach to me about being a MS fanboy and not accepting or listening to other points of view yet you show your true colors and troll-like attributes with a comment like that.

Re: OnTheRopes

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

What do you expect? You do live CA!

McDonalds here can’t find enough help and they’re paying upwards of $7 to $8 per hour to flip burgers.

Perhaps your real estate market is worse than others right now because of the irrational pricing and expectations to begin with.

Anyways, I definitely wouldn’t use California has the shiny example of what America is all about. Quite the contrary.

rickk – Methinks you doth assume too much

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

My profile says what I want it to say and it only says THAT because one can’t opt-out from having it displayed.

The people who need to know, know where I live. Everyone else doesn’t need to know.

It’s as simple as that.

It’s my issue and that’s how I deal with it.

—-
McDonalds pays the same around here. Not exactly what you’d call a living-wage or is it?

No matter what anyone else thinks I don’t believe you’d be that stoopid.

As far as the houses for sale? I’ve never seen so many, anywhere. I doubt that most of it is from the “housing bubble” effect. You of course can feel free to think what you’d like.

What you’d use as a shiny example of America is your choice.

I don’t believe I’ve posted anything in this thread that tries or tried to show the good and bright side of America.

Just because I didn’t doesn’t mean that I can’t think of some things.

I have my own reasons for my thoughts of America, what it’s become and where it’s headed and it’s unreasonable for anyone to expect me to explain them in detail in a public forum at TR just so others can pick them apart, or not, so don’t look for it, unless I change my mind.

Rikk; regarding the oil bit

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

I was giving examples of why the view of America is less favourable outside of the nation and why “They hate us because they are jelous” is complete crap.

Surely your smart enough to be able to understand the difference. Ah, wait.. your posts over the last week or more of steadily degraded.

Now, exacly where am I not willing to Non-FOSS in a rational matter? I’m not willing to accept your BS view of some topics but I’m perfectly willing to discuss technical points on a rational and civil basis. My opinions of MS business practices are a seporate issue and I distinguish between the two.

You simply troll over the discussions looknig for information to spin and fights to start. Your like a git that goes into an Irish pub calling everyone’s mom impolite terms then cries when he finds himself stuck in the face and tossed out the front door to the sidewalk. I think that’s happened to you a few times Verbally by others but in text communication, you’d have to be open minded enough to realize that and you, sir, or proving to lack that ability.

Well, that’s not fair, maybe your very open minded however your choice of behaviour within these forums does not demonstrait that attribute.

Hey, if it was just me that was developing real issues with you I’d say it was just me and accept it but your really working to piss off as many people and derail as many discussion threads as you possible can aren’t you?

Get some clarity and come back to the grown up’s table when you’ve, well, grown up a little.

Perhaps You’d All Like to Live Here Instead…

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070507/wl_nm/france_election_violence_dc

Where there are riots because the leftists are trying to protect their open border policies, socialist agenda, 35 hour work weeks, restrictive trade policies, 15% unemployment rate, etc.

Hardly an example worth trying to copy.

Re: Neon Samurai

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

You say something like the US went to war for oil, I call you out on that and all of a sudden you claim you don’t believe it you were just quoting something as an example. Nice!

I really don’t give a sh1t what the world INCORRECTLY thinks about the US. Perhaps they should get their story straight before forming an opinion.

“I’m perfectly willing to discuss technical points on a rational and civil basis.”

That’s great, except you are the almighty one who gets to determine what is rational, civil and what is and isn’t BS?

Look in a mirror, I think half the things you say are BS. The only difference between you and me is you hide your bias behind politically correct statements of “fact”.

Do I really care how many people are developing real issues with me? If a thread starts going off down the bash MS road, I only try to correct the record.

You claim to be more open minded and consider all view points, yet you engage in threads that serve no other purpose than to bash MS and make open source appear better than it is.

There is a reason you are a part of the 3% of the world using Linux as a desktop. BTW, why do you think that only 3% or so of the world uses Linux as a desktop yet you and your bunch on TR make it seem like everyone does.

I have a clue for you Neon Samurai. No matter how you see yourself or however you think of yourself (including all your buddies on here), reality is quite different.

Re: OnTheRopes

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

“Not exactly what you’d call a living-wage or is it?”

Since when is it McDonald’s responsibility to pay burger flippers a “living wage”?

I couldn’t really give a rats back end that a burger flipper can’t make a living at McDonalds. McDonald’s is in the burger business, not the socialist agenda business and if they were, my happy meal would surely cost me a lot more than $4.

Take an Econ 101 class buddy. In a nutshell, go ahead and increase their wages to something “livable”. Then, the rest of us suffer from higher costs so our wages get raised. It’s called inflation dumbazz.

“As far as the houses for sale? I’ve never seen so many, anywhere.”

Well, one you do have a housing bubble going on. And two, do you realize that home ownership is at an all time high? Don’t you think that you will see more for sale when there are more built to begin with? Boy, that was easy.

“What you’d use as a shiny example of America is your choice.”

What a utterly worthless statement. I was just contrasting LA vs. Midwest. Big, big difference.

nice trolling there rikk

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

You add nothing to the conversation and seek only to inflame anyone who posts too, as you say “poke them with a stick and see what kind of a reaction you get” Your here only to spin and instigate rather than offer any information of value.

Yup, that would be the very definition of the newsgroup troll. Tell you what, I’ll respond to you in this thread one last time and then we’re done. I’ll use small words because I know your comprehension is lacking.

”
You say something like the US went to war for oil, I call you out on that and all of a sudden you claim you don’t believe it you were just quoting something as an example. Nice!
”

You still can’t differentiate between giving points as to why people outside your nation are developing a poor opinion of it. The irony is that you want to “call me out” on a political topic (on a tech site no less) of which many of your fellow country men/women are embarrassed to be associated with. (don?t bother little troll, I?m not going to track down research for you; go look yourself)

If we take a quick look at the administrations reasons for invading a nation; ?It?s Al Queda.. no wait.. it?s weapons of mass destruction.. no wait.. it?s, it?s.. well, it?s not oil, that?s for sure.. we swear?

And of all the government buildings marked as critical, the US military managed to capture the Ministry of Oil. All other buildings left to be looted for weeks on end; coincidence, I?m sure.

But here?s the kicker, it?s not really that important to me. It?s not my country to agree with or disagree with. I?m simply pointing out a few ?oddities? that where presented in the news. And you still can?t comprehend the fact that I was pointing out reasons why people outside the US may be wary of the US.

No back peddling, no changing my stance in reaction to your @zzinine blatherings. I don?t know the whole story with regard to the war; you don?t either. No one outside the bush administration will get the full and un-spun truth until the documents are released from ?top secret? in several years.

And I didn?t at any point tell you to care about the opinions of other people outside the country. I simply pointed out that there are possible reasons for the perception. You?ve decided to disregard facts or simply can?t comprehend them. I give you the benefit of the doubt as choose to believe that you simply simply decided to be a dick and see how much havoc you could cause; bravo, you?ve destroyed far more conversations of relevance than you?ve contributed too.

?
“I’m perfectly willing to discuss technical points on a rational and civil basis.”

That’s great, except you are the almighty one who gets to determine what is rational, civil and what is and isn’t BS?
?
You?ve yet to discuss any topic here with rational and unbiased exchanges of information. I could be sitting in you lap sucking on a MS lollypop and you?d still find some way to twist that into me hating everything MS and just being irrational. You?ve decided that I?m a Zealot or your arch nemesis and nothing I do or say is going to change your mind. Think what you like but if you where to review my posts (outside of responces to your blabber) you?ll find I?m very willing to discuss topics on technical matters and have admitted several times when I was corrected. Where do you get off calling me ?the almighty one who gets to determined what is rational?? Outside of interaction with you and the comments you craft to insight conflict, I?m very much the quiet and open minded willing to offer options are gain new information. Based on how you represent yourself, your not here to gain new information so I have no respect for you. As for choosing what is Civil, you can?t possibly be so dim as to think the crap you write is remotely civil and inviting of further conversation.

?
Look in a mirror, I think half the things you say are BS. The only difference between you and me is you hide your bias behind politically correct statements of “fact”.
?
I hide behind statement of fact. Oh heavens no, I?ll stop using facts; I?m ever so sorry.

?
Do I really care how many people are developing real issues with me? If a thread starts going off down the bash MS road, I only try to correct the record.
?
You?ve imposed yourself into many threads that had nothing to do with MS pashing and again, before you respond with your rhetoric and BS, I?m not going through all your crap posts to give examples. As for MS bashing, you can?t differentiate between discussion of business practices or discussion of technical merits; you simply look for any discussion about or that can be twisted into MS vs the world.

?
You claim to be more open minded and consider all view points, yet you engage in threads that serve no other purpose than to bash MS and make open source appear better than it is.
?
You don?t know me well enough to make any judgement call about me. If there?s a discussion on MS business practices, sure I?ll chime in. I?ll also correct people when there MS bashing is completely wrong (something about MS being to blame for not having Vista drivers.. don?t remember bashing MS over that one but spin it how you like).

?
There is a reason you are a part of the 3% of the world using Linux as a desktop. BTW, why do you think that only 3% or so of the world uses Linux as a desktop yet you and your bunch on TR make it seem like everyone does.
?
I?m part of the 75?ish percent of the world who use computer and also part of the computer world that knows the difference between an OS and applications and can discuss different OS without attacking every post that I see.

?
I have a clue for you Neon Samurai. No matter how you see yourself or however you think of yourself (including all your buddies on here), reality is quite different.
?
And your point is? Again, I?m pretty sure that just by reading my posts here, you can?t possibly judge my views on reality unless perhaps you?ve teleported to where I live and met me in a coffee shop? Where you that cute redhead from the other day?

Now let?s do something fun huh? Give us a list of positive comments you?ve made which further a discussion or answered a user?s question. Oh right, not your job to help other?s is it; your just here to be a troll.

I think I?m done hearing from you thanks. If you where to read the progression between us, you?d find it started very civily. You?ll find it progresses for quite a while where I try to be polite and am open to your ideas. You?ll also find that as your posts become more obnoxious, my responses become less polite until we reach this point now. I?ll respond where I can add information. I?ll respond where your blatantly wrong but I?ll not continue to pander to your need for conflict and I?ll not respond to the BS posts which you?ve been offering as of recent.

This is not because I can?t prove my point nor is it because I don?t want to clarify points for the benefit of the other readers. It?s simply because your not here for any form of conversation. Your only here cause grief and as such, griefer posts will be delt with like any other Troll post. All you had to do was post correcting information worded in a manner that didn?t sound like a hostile attack but you just can?t keep from responding to everyone with the simple theme of ?your experience is not the same as mine so your wrong and idiot.?

You?ve devalued your own opinion to the point of being worthless. If you think the negative posts your receiving have nothing to do with your behavior and complete lack of respect for anyone different from you; your delusional.

France ?

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

I can?t believe that someone brought up France
Really?
France?
Really?

O HAL 9000
It’s the America’s Cup now (shame about the name)
And why is it that Australia has no boat?
Can?t be because NZ is a richer nation or is it
Still reading your post ???????????

Ghost the days of the criminals like Alan Bond

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Are long gone and never to be repeated hopefully.

Though I must admit that the race off Fremantle I was involved in, in a very small way as I was rushed to Sydney to repair some sail makers sewing machines for the 12 Meter Racing Boats being run by different AU syndicates. And many years latter before the AU2 was put on permanent display I got a short sail in it though it was only a few hours and I was supposedly a passenger in something that bare there is no room for passengers everyone onboard works their but off so that the thing works properly.

But even when the Yanks lost that Cup it wasn’t because they had a vastly superior boat but because AU2 broke so many times that it allowed Denis Connor to think that he had it in the bag when actually he had no chance against AU2 if it didn’t break.

But no matter what that is one Yacht that I wouldn’t like to spend more than a few hours on sailing as it’s way too much work for real people to keep trimmed correctly and at peek performance.

Col

So you aren?t going to tell me?

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

Anyway I would like to see Australia in the Americas cup
It?s always good to have a back up team
Just glad there?s no dirty Dennis

Tell you what Ghost?

In reply to I’ll type slowly so you just might understand maybe.

It’s all fairly ancient History now Ben Miller trading as Lexan designed a 12 Meter racing sloop that was within the rules with a Winged Keel and it was about as fair a race with Poor Denis as racing a Catamaran was against a 12 meter Sloop. They where just not in the same class and worked totally differently.

Col

finger print readers !

In reply to Well may be it’s just M$ Resellers here not stocking them

Gee getting really wild there with the security thing . . But since it does not have a “VISTA” driver I would not move to the upgrade . . Wait for a year for the people whom made it to either make a driver for Linux or windows and go with the direction they did with their driver . . I got to go to Linux central and get a book for how to make drivers for 2 items this morning . .