Windows·65,590 discussions

Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

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Is Windows Genuine Advantage is that anti piracy or is just spyware you be the judge. Its not okay for Sony to put a rootkit in your computer but Microsoft can by usine Window Genuine Advantage? Spyware weather you call it by another name is still spying.
Microsoft is not telling you the whole story if you look on the internet you find buches of website that already cracke the code and telling you a different side of the story on what it does. Would you want your computer reporting back to Microsoft what it doing? Techreplubic members what is your take on it.

Topic

Actually the spyware is incidental – WGA is the

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

front line in the Windows Intel fight to get everyone to accept compulsory Secure Computing whereby your system will NOT be allowed on the network, be it internal or the Internet, unless it is registered as being legal hardware with legal software in the centralised database.

They announced this intent about eight years ago and the hardware and software has been moving down that path since. The use of the CPU and / or the hard drive seriel number in the authentication process was but one phase of this push.

I agree with you

In reply to Actually the spyware is incidental – WGA is the

I agree with you on this issue

How enlightening, B1ff.

In reply to I agree with you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_too

You’re on the right track.

In reply to Actually the spyware is incidental – WGA is the

They may be working the bugs out for when the Windows Live paradigm shift comes, which would need a Trusted Computing Platform first. When most of the “service” comes from a central server, ensuring that Microsoft can correctly identify its paid users becomes even more critical. It’s harder to pirate an entire operating system than it is to have a small subset of the code on your PC and then fool the server into giving you “services” you haven’t paid for. The entire Genuine Advantage program may be less about ensuring today’s profits than it is about locking in tomorrow’s. The fact that the program helps them today may be nothing more than a nice side effect for them.

Don’t agree this time

In reply to Actually the spyware is incidental – WGA is the

“in the Windows Intel fight to get everyone to accept compulsory Secure Computing”

The first issue to solve in secure comouting is not to check wheter software is paid for or not. First issue is to create a secure PC in the first place, that means secure OS and applications.

Unsecure SW, and an unsecure PC on any net, is unsecure whether it is paid for, borrowed, pirated, or free.

Secure Computing is not about security but profits

In reply to Don’t agree this time

For MS and Intel as they force everybody to upgrade all their computer hardware. If you want a secure computing environment and the only way to get is to have a specific set of hardware and software and the system is NOT compatible with anything else, and refuses to accept anything from a non-secure system, then your only option is to buy the new hardware and software. And once committed to it, you have to continue with the updates and upgrades they put out, regardless of the cost.

Now the biggest problem that Wintel (the MS Intel combine) has, is that Secure Computing will not work if the company concerned needs to interact with another company. Modern business means heavy Internet usage for e-commerce, e-communications, exchanging orders, sales, invoices, banking, e-mails over the Internet. Thus the aim to get the Internet Secure Computing stable, thus the need to get all the users buying in to the system.

They have some major issues to overcome here.

1. The Internet is deliberately designed to be an open communications system that will survive extreme infrastructure damage and still oeprate.

2. Most home users use older equipment to access the Internet.

3. Any corporate network can be made totally secure from EXTERNAL attack using existing hardware and software, this has been possible for over a decade. NB Nothing can protect you fully from an Internal attack.

The real questions are how far will users and business allow themselves to be pushed by MS and Intel so that Wintel can sew up their profit base? Will they spend the money to properly establish secure gateways or spend the money on the Wintel option?

Back in the 1990’s I worked with a secure gateway that was well designed, included features that stopped intrusions, viruses, and trojans dead in their tracks. The price to be paid was that proprietary program files like .pdf, flash movies, Java pages etc were not visible through the gateway as the anti-virus software could not open, read and verify the code was NOT malicious. So some users complained – the answer they got was “get back to work, no work required web site use that crap.” Oh, almost forgot, all e-mail attachments had to be in industry standard open code formats like .txt, .rtf, .jpg etc.

The gateway had full redundancy and everything got scanned twice, by two different styles of software as it transited the gateway. Costly to set up, easy to maintain, and Dept of Defence approved.

The only virii that ever hit their internal network were quickly shutdown and traced to people who brought disks in from infected machines at home.

this story…

In reply to Actually the spyware is incidental – WGA is the

Are you saying that if my Dell HD crashes, and I replace the HD, that I must also by a new XP Pro software package as well or I have broken the law?

Dr. Chevalier
132121@charter.net

You got to be kidding!

In reply to this story…

You bought the license the first time and received a code for the software that you had to register in order to use it. That same number will be called in again when a significant number of changes have been made to your system.
A new hard drive no longer contains the validation code in the registry, so naturally, the OS must be re-registered with Micro$oft.

I change out hard drives often and make a lot of hardware changes that require registration. So far, no problem with the tech support people at Micro$oft.

MS has quietly changed the licensing policy

In reply to You got to be kidding!

Windows XP was originally launched with the idea that people would change (upgrade) parts of their systems over time. It was determined that if you changed 4 items in your system (6 if you had a network card installed) it would then need to be reactivated. They eventually made it where this applied in a 120 day period, since some people complained about testing equipment, etc.

More recently, however, I found out this had changed at an MS event. The MS rep said that they now say once you activated the copy of Windows, it is now bound to that motherboard forever. If the board proves defective, it may allow a second activation, but only (during the warranty)if it is replaced by the OEM that installed it. The big names all have corporate keys, so that does not matter to them to put a fresh copy on, but the little guys may not have any option but to “eat the cost,” if MS will not. Seems unfair if someone sells you a motherboard and it fails 3-6 months down the line, you would have to buy a new copy of Windows if you did not buy it with the board.

This is bad for small OEMs, businesses, and consumers who like to build their own equipment to their own specs. Now, everytime you upgrade your motherboard, you have a new system, requiring a new copy of the same Windows you had previously. It doesn’t matter that the old motherboard will never be used again (or that you would put Win 98 on it, then give it to your grandmother for email) They want a new license for the “new” computer you just assembled.

We were told by the rep that this allows us (system builders) the chance to sell another license, and what did anyone expect when they were already paying half the price of the retail version. (That $150 piece of cardboard)
I am an Action Pack subscriber, and this was never mentioned to me, but I was wondering why MS would not (flat out told me NO) activate my software.

They originally said that the AP software was for testing and evaluation in your business. While I did install on some systems to use, I kept some of the licenses for testing on various systems, which I changed. Now I found that I have licenses bound to what is now old hardware, that I can’t use on newer platforms to see if they are viable alternatives. They did not even send me new keys to use when I renewed my subscription earlier this year, just took the same $300 they did last year. They also dropped the $100 discount for renewals.

Obviously I am not happy with MS, but why alienate the people you need to evangelize your software? Between this and the WGA fiasco, who really wants to have a Windows PC if they have to jump through hoops to maintain it? Rumor is that this only applies to people who buy OEM copies, not retail. Since I do not know anyone who actually owns a retail copy of the full version of XP Pro, I can’t confirm this. Anyone out there know for sure?

WGA is just plain spyware MS forced down users throats. This was not a critical update that should be installed ASAP, it was a piece of software that if given the choice, most users would not install. This would mean that MS would not have had as large a “beta test pool” to work with before rolling it out as mandatory. It did nothing to repair a flaw in the OS, it just phones home everyday (or 14 days, now) to say, “Yes, everything is fine here, no piracy detected.” It records your IP address, so with the push by the government to have ISPs track users IPs for months to years, it would not be difficult for MS to come back on someone now (or later) for “piracy” violations. If MS would do this, how much longer before they just decide to force down a patch to give them all the info of a user or system? Could this already be something being implemented in Vista? Sounds like paranoia, but could it happen before anyone found out? Do not forget what they did to DR-DOS years ago. Where do we as a community draw the line and say enough? Could it be time to have the world move to Linux? Stay tuned for the next exciting chapter.

OK, I will get off the soapbox now to allow others to agree or disagree at their whim. I’ll just get an icy cold one and see what anyone else has to say. Thanks for letting me vent 🙂

Don’t take their word for it check with the consumer law

In reply to MS has quietly changed the licensing policy

people for your jurisdiction. Under the law here, NSW Australia, I have a copy of MS Win XP I can lawfully put it on any machine I damn well please as long as I have it on only one machine at a time. If they refuse to activate then they have to prive that I’m running it on more than one machine and take me to court or end up paying big fines under the consumer laws.

DE the EULA was written for US Law

In reply to Don’t take their word for it check with the consumer law

Here in AU we are a small market so there was no attempt to change the EULA for us here MS just expected US Law to apply but it didn’t so that OEM Copies had to be supported by MS and not the system builder like they are in the US.

Even with the Acton Pack here things are different to the US as we can install the software on whatever we like for testing purposes or to use in our companies business transactions and the Action Pack that we get here may be different to what is supplied in the US as here we don’t have to activate the products like an OEM Copy would require. The contents of our Action Packs are Volume License so there is no activation required.

However I think that in the US this is different and not only applies to Windows but to all MS OEM Software so in the event of a M’Board failing out of Guarantee they should provide new copies of Windows and Office as well as any other installed MS OEM software. To me this is nothing more than a [b]Money Grab[/b] by MS but as that doesn’t apply to me personally I can’t complain.

MS does some silly things they wanted me to remove any reference to the Anti Piracy section of MS on my Companies Web Page while the Legal section where only too happy for me to do this and they even supplied my with a [b]Sample EULA[/b] to use. Someone in marketing saw this as unwanted and demanded that I remove it via a phone call so I just rang the person that I spoke to in the Legal Department and asked what I should do. That problem disappeared straight away. However the References to Linux and other non MS OS’s that I have on my Web Site where defiantly not acceptable to MS in any form even though they didn’t offer a product to compete where these where used in large clusters at the time. Both the Technical and Legal sides of MS didn’t see a problem but someone at marketing did and I was raked over the coals for allowing anything but MS to be displayed on my Companies Web Page. I asked for a written notification which at first the person was quite happy to do until he realised that I intended forwarding it on to the ACCC with a complaint then that was forgotten about. But if I was working in the US I would have had to have removed the Linux Page.

The Consumer Protection Laws in the US are no where near as strong as they are here so the OEM builders get a harder life than we do here. Most people think that I dislike MS because I don’t like their products but the real reason is that I dislike MS because I work with them way too much and can’t stand constantly jumping through hoops to keep them happy as a Volume License Deal can change in such a short time that it isn’t funny and what happened on the last job no longer applies when I’m quoting for a new job 3 weeks latter.

MS Licensing is my biggest Bug Bear it nearly drives me crazy the way that they keep changing things as we go along. Things can change between the time a Quote is issued and the work started and even when you buy a Volume License you get the CD/s supplied and have to wait for a Product Key to be E-Mailed to you which generally arrived 7 to 10 working days after the install media so you can order something like a 25 Site License for XP Pro and Office and then wait around 2 to 3 weeks before you can begin the installation on the hardware that you have already built by this time. This system isn’t geared to speed of deployment but only to suit MS needs. Whats even worse is if you are using a Volume License of say Windows and Office you get the product Keys E-Mailed to you in different E-Mails generally the Office Side of the Business is faster so you get that Key first and then have to wait for the Windows Key to arrive before you can start to create the original HDD that you are going to Clone from for the entire installation. Whist something as small as a 25 Site License you need 3 product Keys 1 for XP Pro 1 for the Server Version that you are using and 1 for Office and then any other MS Software that you may require for that business. It makes things hard to deal with and the deployment of a new system slower than it need be.

Col

I realise that Aus is different that’s why I said check

In reply to DE the EULA was written for US Law

with the local legal people. I also know that the USA consumer laws are NOT standardised, the dederal laws are aminimum that apply and the states can build on them. The MS EULA is clearly written with the US federal laws in mind, but many of the US states have state consumer laws, that also apply, that are as strong, and some stronger, than the Aus consumer laws.

In any case, I would never accept the manufacturer’s word on what is the legal situation on something, I would check with my local legal experts. MS has lost some state level court cases on their enforcement of the EULA as they were against state law. But none of that has any effect on their predatory marketting practices.

You do know that Bill Gates shaped his marketting practices on those of his marketing hero, Thomas Edison. Both have gone out of their way to steal other’s ideas, and bully people to using their products, etc.

I agree with you 100%

In reply to MS has quietly changed the licensing policy

I agree with you its going to be like that movie 1984 what would life be in the future and the low man on the totem pole get screwed, like in the movie only high up could turn off the propaganda monitors where as the low man on the totem pole couldn’t
Peace be with you all.

That maybe correct as the EULA isn’t

In reply to this story…

Specific enough on this area. It could even mean replacing something as simple as a broken mouse could require an entire New MS product Lineup.

With OEM MS Software the EULA specifically says [b]For Use With Original Hardware Only[/b] so you can draw the line where you think that Original Hardware means that a replacement Software Package is required. Then if you are using the Pro Version it says Licensed for use with 2 CPU’s which according to the Legal People that I’ve spoken to can mean on 1 Dual Processor M’Board or on 2 Single Processor M’Boards it depends on the Law in your area. Either way I’m not interested in testing it either way.

According to MS currently they only apply this in AU to a CPU & M’Board Replacement where there is a significant [b]Performance Increase[/b] achieved by replacing the CPU and M’Board. That was directly from the Legal Department at a MS Partners Meeting a few years ago. If you have to replace a CPU/M’Board and there isn’t a significant Performance Increase involved or you do an insurance Job and use the lowest speed components currently available you can use the original OEM Software from MS. Upgrades where performance is increased dramatically should require a new set of OEM MS Software according to MS though to be honest they where not bothering with this the last time that I went to one of their Partner Meetings in May. They where also pushing the idea that I could sell OEM product if one piece of hardware was purchased so with the purchase of a $6.00 mouse I could sell several Thousand $ of MS OEM Software quite legally.

I gave up trying to make any sense of the MS Licensing Policy a long time ago and just do as they insist though to be fair I’m mostly using Volume License product that doesn’t require Activation and most times doesn’t have WGA installed at the moment.

Also if a computer is stolen and there is a valid Police Report here at least I can install the original software on a replacement computer and any insurance jobs that I undertake always use the original Software even if there is no possibility of using the original COA on the case. Apparently the Insurance Companies will not come at the cost of replacement MS Software and MS accepts this.

Now I’ve got a headache from putting all that down as [b]MS Licensing is a Nightmare[/b] to work through with so many inconsistencies I think that I’ll go and have to 44 Gallon drum of Valium IV now to calm me down and I’m going to need years of Therapy just for posting this. 😀

There are 2 things that you never question MS Licensing and Why Windows Works the way that it does as you can have 2 identical Boxes that work completely differently though they are the exact same hardware and software installed if you try to make sense it will drive you crazy!

Col

And the EULA can be overridden by the consumer laws

In reply to That maybe correct as the EULA isn’t

in many states of Australia the consumer laws are such that the EULA can not replace the consumer laws and the laws put limits on what the company’s can do and not allow you to do.

Some years ago I checked with the NSW Dept of Fair Trading, they look administer the consumer laws down here, and the legal view, according to them, is that once you buy a legal licence to use the software then you can lawfully use that on ANY computer that you have, however you may only have each licence on only one computer at any one time, except where you have used one copy to do the installs on several machines and you have a legal licence for each machine. In effect an audit will count the number of machines with the licence, check for that number of licences of that software, but usually won’t check against the licence numbers on the machines.

Kind of blows away a lot of that EULA crap.

Another way to say #@!!& you Microsoft is…

In reply to And the EULA can be overridden by the consumer laws

I use Linux. Well, actually, learning it. Perhaps if we give this system enough support and backing, we can make Microsoft irrelevant. I am sick to death of the whole EULA thing, the registration keys, the draconian policies. In the end, using microsoft is a faustian deal. I lost access to my Windows XP profile and never got it back. Now, I back up off-machine to a non-profile folder on an external drive, then burn to cd.

No, but…

In reply to this story…

You have to call into support and get a new installation code – which they will provide you after you explain your situation. This is inconvenient as it adds 20+ minutes to the installation of any program with a similar feature (e.g., MS Office).

Hardware manufactures cheat with OS software

In reply to this story…

I do not think so. What you need to watch is hardware manufactures who sell you a PC that comes with a version of Windows that only works on one PC. You loose the original PC due to theft, fire or whatever and you buy another PC then you have to get another copy of windows. Of cause they do not advertise this feature of their systems as people would be reluctant to pay for such an arrangement.

No, you have to get it reactivated the problem

In reply to this story…

I was refering to is that the early version of the activation software required you to reactivate if you changed your graphics card or added a second hard drive or made similar important hardware changes. They got so many complaints they issued a patch the reduced the impact of this.

However, WGA is showing itself to be far more intrusive and more of a problem. Before I finally blew away XP and installed SimplyMEPIS linux it got so bad that everytime I got any security updates from MS, for the legal copy XP I had (since resold it), I had to contact MS direct and get a NEW validation code for my system before it worked again.

I eventually found at the problem was that WGA kept seeing my system as a pirate because I had Auto Updates turned off, Remote Access by MS turned off, and did not allow it to contact MS except when I wanted to run the updates software.

In effect by retaining control of my own PC MS saw me as a pirate regardless of having a valide code and software.

Interesting

In reply to No, you have to get it reactivated the problem

So….. having auto updates off etc makes you a pirate?

…..yet M$ and every expert tells you to have auto updates on?

Forgive my simple mind, but this makes most M$ customers (including major corporations, who are its bread and butter), pirates.

….. or am I bad at logic?

I visualise an image here of an entity called Microsoft aiming an HUGE gun/missile/whatever at their foot and pulling a trigger.

: edited for typing error

That seems to be the MS thinking behind WGA

In reply to Interesting

Most people I know dealing with this at the corporate level see it as a major headache. I can’t allow WGA and auto updates to be left turned on. My internet access is via a rural dial-up service, commonly connected at 28.8 kbps to 38.2 kbps that disconnects every 6 hours (ISP aspect)- at one point I had 4 XP systems on this and with autoupdates and the bloody thing did almost nothing but talk to MS all day every day. Turn the suckers off and only gove for critical security updates and its liviable. Since I went to SimplyMEPIS its bloody incrediable how good the Internet acces is now, no time wasted sucking MS crap.

Devil’s Advocate…

In reply to this story…

I’ve been reading this portion of the thread and I thought… Hmmm. When I go to the car dealership to get a new car, I don’t ask him to transfer the engine into my new car.

Microsoft is basically doing the same thing. They want the OS license to go with the device that it was originally installed on. I presume that you notice that most OEM’s are now placing the OS license sticker on the side of the case? Have you also noticed that you can’t remove that sticker without tearing it to shreads? And in the end, this makes sense to me. If I buy a computer and use it for 3 years, then I donate that computer to a charitble organization, I don’t expect that organization to also have to go out and separately license the system. I would have already purchased a new OS licens with the new PC, why do I need an extra laying around? How many Dells, HPs, Sonys, Toshibas, etc… have you purchased in the last 10 years that didn’t include an OS license in the purchase price?

I generally agree that this is unfair for the people who are into system tweaking or have mobo/cpu failures, but who is MS really going after here? MS is going after the large scale software pirates. They are trying to ensure that OEM’s don’t purchase huge volumes of licenses that “fell off the truck” and have them dumped on the market. I think that MS is basically insuring that OEMs don’t try to go to an “alternate source” for the OS.

This isn’t about little bobbie messing around in his basement, this is about massive software piracy, mostly in Asia. Last I heard, there were an estimated 10+ million unlicensed Windows systems in China alone. This accounts for billions in lost profits for the legal copyright holder of the software.

Actually a fairer analogy would be that Windows is a fancy accessory

In reply to Devil’s Advocate…

and it is NOT required for the car to do its basic turn on. If I want to move that accessory to another car later I should be able to.

But even with your analgy of it being the engine, if I buy a car with a special fine tuned 2.6 litre engine and the body wears out and the only replacement has a 1.8 litre engine, then I should be able to move the engine over if I want to and it is emchanically possible to do so.

There is NO requirement for me, as a home user to stick the Win licence on the PC, I can store it beside it. Even the HP lap top I bought with Win XP pre installed does not have the sticker on it, but on the disk that came with it.

Re the piracy in Asia, MS can’t be too worried about it because they aren’t doing much to chase the Asian pirates. Also the activation key process was supposed to, and should, deal with that – so why add the WGA crap. All they do is annoy people and cost them more sales when they annoy someone too much.

Bad anology

In reply to Devil’s Advocate…

That is not a good comparison. If I buy a car it has an engine but if I want to change the engine or add a new carburator I can still use the car without approval and if I want to put that engine in another car I can still use it without paying for it again. Yet that engine is not in both cars at the same time.
I bought the liscense to use their product it should not matter what computer I have it on just that I have it on one.

Well you could look at it this way as well

In reply to Devil’s Advocate…

You go and buy a new car and something breaks in it while it is UG you do not expect to have to pay for a new car when yours is mealy repaired for free do you?

Recently I had a 6 month old build have a M’Board failure while the M’Board was replaced UG with the same model why should I have to provide all new OEM MS Software which costs a lot more than the M’Board originally cost? If you look at the price of building a computer you’ll find most of it is in MS Licensing Fees for a bottom of the range computer. Even a Mid Sized computer will come close to 50% of the cost as MS OEM License Fees. For example the above mentioned computer was a Insurance Job so I was only required to replace the destroyed Hardware which was the tower and the parts came to $780.00 AU but if I was to supply new MS OEM Software with just Office and XP Pro installed you can add another $700.00 AU for 2 CD’s and a bit of cardboard.

Then there is the fact that MS chases up resellers who trade in used computers and on sell them. If they have a MS COA on the side that doesn’t matter they have to provide [b]Install Media[/b] with the Second Hand Computer or MS will take them to Court for selling Pirate Software even though in just about every case every Home User loses their install Media almost straight away and it’s never seen again. But if you are selling a secondhand computer with Windows 98SE and Office 97 on it you have to have the Install Media of you can be facing a massive fine which is settled out of court and then MS sends an [b]Enforcement Alert[/b] to all it’s partners naming the company involved and it’s principals for breaching MS EULA.

To me this is MS wanting it’s Cake and Eating it as well. These computers have a Genuine License attached to them but because the owner has lost the install media it’s impossible to on sell these units. As a OEM System Builder here I have to supply Install Media with every computer that I sell which I don’t have a problem with but then I go out to a business and pull a new IBM/Toshiba/whatever NB out of a Box and proceed to set it up on the existing Network and I don’t see any Install Media not even a Hidden Partition to reinstall from but as an [b]Optional Extra[/b] the customer can buy the install media from the supplier and at the end of the Tax Cycle of that machine it can’t be on sold because it has no Install Media which was never supplied. Now how can that in any way be considered as fair?

Or even better any company with a [b]Volume License[/b] doesn’t get [b]COA’s[/b] to stick on the case they get 1 CD to install from and then mostly Clone the HDD to all the computers on that network when it’s originally installed so when those Computers reach the end of the Tax Cycle they are Auctioned off but the buyer can not use the installed OS or on sell the computers as they stand because there is no Install Media supplied with each computer. Remember that in a case like this they all have the same Product Key and MS only ever supplies 1 Install set of Media so if the License is tied to that Hardware for Life how can you be charged for selling Pirate Software on Licensed Products?

Then there is the case recently where a company was importing Genuine copies of MS product from Singapore and selling them in AU they to got hit for Privacy even though there was no evidence given that this was not Genuine MS Product which it was but because it wasn’t purchased from a company in AU it was considered as Pirate.

Now for the funny bit when I buy a Volume License here I get the Install Media supplied from one of the 2 companies who sell it and the product Key is supplied from MS Singapore. Try to make sense of that as I can’t!

Col

WGA is a bit of everything depending on what you are doing

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

With Volume Licenses it required changing the Product Keys [b]Again[/b] downloads & installs the same item every month when it comes time for the [b]MS Update Week of Hell![/b]

For home users it allows them access to something that most would never want so they install it because they think that they are getting something for free which of course they are not but most Home Owners like the idea.

Most IT Professionals see it as a nuisance and just another Hoop that we are forced to jump through to keep MS happy.

Life wasn’t meant to be easy but to make things really hard you need MS to screw things up totally.

Col

You know…

In reply to WGA is a bit of everything depending on what you are doing

I just got to thinking about it. around 80%-90% You just got me thinking about it, and of the support calls I have made in the past year, around 80 to 90 percent have been related to license protection systems (ie the anti-piracy mechanisms were preventing us from using legally purchased software). In one case we suffered an 8 hour outage on a particular system, that we had to rebuild from scratch when the license service took a nosedive. THe applications themselve run fine, perform flawlesly, and need no attention, save for the cop0y protection systems. That just doesn’t seem right…

Fun isn’t it?

In reply to You know…

As I said just another Hoop to jump through before you can do your actual work. :^0

Col ]:)

WGA = Security Hole

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

I see WGA as a great attack vector. Wait until the warning start coming out about the flaws in WGA and the issues associated with it being installed on the client…

The remote plug and play fiasco will look like childs play.

WGA is spyware and will push corporations away from MS products very quickly…

Hmmmmm

In reply to WGA = Security Hole

I have read your posts before. You are just an anti-Microsoft cry baby who has something negitive to say about Microsoft every day.
If you don’t like Microsoft…good stay the hell away from it. But your opinions are ALL one sided, so therefore are not worth anything…

Thank you for your pointless post

In reply to Hmmmmm

So, why is WGA not a security hole?

If someone can say something negative every day,

In reply to Hmmmmm

perhaps that might be a clue that that particular thing isn’t very good?

As far as one-sided posts go, if I ever need an example of one in the future, I’ll refer them to your post.

Stay the hell away from Microsoft? No problem. That’s why this post comes to you from an OpenSuSE 10.1 box. Try it–you might like it. Or is that what you’re afraid of?

where can you get the suse10.1

In reply to If someone can say something negative every day,

I agree with on your topic that why I started the original thread and was wondering where I can get open suse 10.1 at. I know novell got a suse 9.0 maybe newer version out since I last check but if you know of a sight where I can get it would greatly apreaciated since I can’t find it in my neck of the woods. Thanks

WGA is by definition a spyware….

In reply to Hmmmmm

Show me one good thing about a spyware and people will stop talking negatively about Microsoft. Any program that is put onto your computer and takes information off to be retured back to the creator is a spyware. thats illegal in America.

I doubt that

In reply to WGA = Security Hole

Although it is another hassle, it is not a good enough reason for a corp to change out every OS, especially large companies. Not to mention the costs in training involved. No, it is doubtful for everyone to move from MS because of this.

However, I do expect that more people will be looking at alternative OS’s over the next few years. This may or may not play a role in it, but there is a widening trend for people moving away from MS (at least people I talk to).

Agreed

In reply to I doubt that

I think this is the straw that broke the camel’s back.

The training costs with Vista (esp with UAC and the various GUI wonkiness) will be about the same as moving to another OS or thin clients.

I think we’ll see a corporate push towards thin clients. While, until recently, I was very anti-thin client, I think the new thin clients are far more efficient and networks are more able to handle the load.

I also think that most corporations and small businesses, once they find out what WGA really is, will be very upset…and rightly so.

I also agree with the trend to move away from MS. While 10 years ago you’d hear, “you’ll never get fired for buying Microsoft,” now you hear, “What are the alternatives.”

Like I’ve said before, MS is acting EXACTLY how IBM acted in the mid to late 80’s.

Training costs are irrelevant for most organisation

In reply to I doubt that

The differences between Win 98 and Win 2K are so minor that there was no real need to get extra training, but from them to Win XP the gap is alrge, from Win XP to Vista it is going to be as big as the gap to Linux or Unix. However, the training cost that frightens most corporate executives is for the general staff member having to change their applications like Word, Excel etc.

This need not be a problem. All they need do is load Linux install WINE or Crossover, then instal their existing MS Office appplications. No training costs as the majority of staff are still using the same apps as they see every day. But you also get a security improvement at the same time.

Running MS Office on Linux is more secure than running it on Windows because the majority of security holes are effective due to the fact they have hooks into the kernel that bypass basic security measures in Windows, in Linux they have no hooks into the kernel and that can’t bypass the security.

I agree partially, but

In reply to Training costs are irrelevant for most organisation

its not just Office that people use. And although there are alternatives to most applications for Linux, many would be reluctant to move from MS products, especially with the multitudes of programs that the company uses being windows based.
I do think that MS will lose marketshare over the next few years, and that many people will switch from MS products, but it is unrealistic to believe that everyone will just because of 1 problem. I mean, did Sony lose much around christmas after the rootkit was found? No, their sales were still good, even for DVD’s/CD’s.
Most people have a wall, and will stick with MS, same with companies. But, I do see more and more jobs requiring Linux exp. recently, so I do believe that many are moving. It will take some time, and people have to get used to the idea to move to a new style OS that is not the same as Windows. Also, more techs need to lead the way for it to happen.

For most of what you say, I would support you, but I dont think that 1 or 2 things will cause most companies to move.
And with the familiar interface for Windows, even with all of the changes, many will be quicker to adopt and learn those changes, than learn a different style OS altogether. In fact, I knew a large company that was still using Win 95 in 02 because all of their apps were tuned to 95 (custom tweaked).

Then they may wish to try installing Linux with WINE or

In reply to I agree partially, but

Crossover and running their applications on that, get the better use out of modern hardware and still use their Windows based applications.

Closest I have ever been…

In reply to Then they may wish to try installing Linux with WINE or

I admit, I am lazy. that is probably the main reason I still use windows primarily. I can pretty much do anything I want witht he windows file system, and this have complete confidence that I can recover from just about any oops (ironically Knoppix is one of the tools I use for that). I like that I can just run setup, answer a few questions, and (most of the time) the software Installs where I want it to, with the data where I choose it to be, without resorting to reading manuals, editing textfiles, etc…

But for the past several days I have been looking in the corner at an alert from MS about this really important WGA update I really need to install… This just might be the time I switch…

This is just the initial hesitation..

In reply to Training costs are irrelevant for most organisation

I guess the authorities/ personnel responsible for IT management still needs someone to point a finger to..

If you have decided to install Linux and it goes wrong – you would get fired. The organization keeps credit it this goes well.

On the other hand you decide to keep MS and still pay and blame it for bloating, at least the job is safe.. this is mediocre thinking but I have seen this in Action.

Just get rid of it.

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

Spyware or not this is an attempt from Microsoft to get info about there users and not about piracy. Whether it?s WGA or some other code Microsoft has been planting it for years inside the windows OS. I have to say that putting this software in Windows to stop piracy is a futile effort. They know just like everyone else that all it?s going to stop is the mom and pop?s from putting it on each others PC. Any experienced PC person will eventually find a crack or a software patch to bypass the software. I?ve seen them posted out there each time MS has changed WGA. From my prospective the only way to stop piracy is to lower the cost and make the software worth the money being spent. Personally for myself I will never buy another MS product unless it comes with a new PC. The upgrade cost of the software is not worth the product but that a whole other issue. I really think MS should just pull WGA and be done with it.

Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

Yeah, real convincing logic there. Your voting record likely leans to the left as well. How you manage to compare Sony’s completely under the radar Rootkit to Microsoft WGA that was announced quite a while before it became mandatory, is moronic, and childish at best. Come up with a real discussion point. You are one of those types that uses a hit on MS to start a conversation. What a joke.

Across the board, it certainly seems that more times than not, the people complaining about WGA are those that have illegal copies running. What the heck is the problem with MS enforcing licensing? They are certainly entitled to it. You can make all the arguments you like about how they don’t need the money and they’re just picking on the poor, or whatever other fallacious complaint dimwits like you come up with.

The fact is its malcontents that hate MS (more specifically Bill G.) and are just coming up with another soap box issue to raise a stink about. This post is no better than that other rediculous “Vaporware” post Mr. Retardo made. Again, get a life and a real topic of conversation, cause posts like this only bring out the MS haters, or the haters of MS haters (like me). And never promote any real conversation. Save the inflamatory post for a reply to a topic.

What a joke of a post…

WOW…

In reply to Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

Does kicking and screaming make you feel like less of a 3 year old? Are you the authority figure of ALL of the post here? Your are nothing more than one of those idiots who says something either stupid or childish in a post to attract attention. As for WGA, it is wrong for MS to put code on your pc for purposes other than anti piracy. Would you want cell phone telling others what you said during a conversation with your boyfriend… It is the same thing. Moron…

give your ass

In reply to WOW…

a scratch rashbaby.

Some of you folks use the logic of illegal mexicans===NONE.

Save the typing

In reply to give your ass

and just make a blank post next time. It will have all your trademark content, but with a lot less of a hassle to you.

You are another shining example of Larry’s Law of Lame Posters.

OK… So what is your point?

In reply to give your ass

So what are you saying? I use Windows and SLED. I just think if MS wants to assure that their software is legal and scans your PC to assure that it is, then for crying out loud that?s their decision. It?s Their Software. They should not have this same software spying on its users. Honestly, what is MS purpose for doing this? Is it because they can? I don?t hate MS, MS haters, Linux, or Linux users. I think this is a valid discussion. Am I suppose to just accept anything MS shoves up my computer no questions asked? Do you handle other areas of your life that way? So far, SLED is much less annoying (for the most part) than XP. I don?t find myself having to take a rectal exam every time I go to their website either.

Not Yet but it will be in place soon. :p

In reply to OK… So what is your point?

What is really frighting is the number of times that Word tries to ring home. I recently saw a computer connected through a Dial Up modem and the phone bill was horrendous with so many unconnected attempts to call MS directly from Word.

It wasn’t even once a day but several times an hour, I can’t see WGA making things any easier either as it wants to install itself every month the same file. So while MS has a way to remove it the next month it is there again as a Security Update.

I’ve had to change Product Keys on every Volume License Copy of Windows XP that I’ve ever sold and at one place they where installing WGA only a few months after SP2 and I had to change the product key for SP2 and then a few months latter the same thing happened again with the same company with the new Product key provided by MS only 2 months or so previously. With that place it was the third time that we had changed XP Product Keys one for SP1 one for SP2 and then another one for WGA.

MS took the cake though as they didn’t see a problem with all these changes and insisted it only took a short time to perform the change which is true for 1 computer but this place has 2,500 XP computers so it’s not a job to be tackled lightly. Of course as yet I haven’t had this problem with 2003 ES but I’m not overly game to say much as I’m sure that things will change if I boast about it.

Col

Word phones home

In reply to Not Yet but it will be in place soon. :p

Think of the costs back in the old ISDN charged by the connection minute days (with a one minute minimum).

Word, Visio, PowerPoint, and everything else

In reply to Word phones home

auto-update? I think not.

I suggest you try using some logic, any logic, other than knee jerks

In reply to Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

The majority of people here in TR complaining about WGA have legal copies and are pissed off with four things about it.

1. It is compulsory.

2. It slows the system down.

3. It sends a lot more information to MS than just the licence number of the OS.

4. (a biggest complaint) It screws the system over so much that those with legal copies have to revalidate. It is this being told your legal copy is invalid that really pisses people off.

As near as I can tell about WGA is that if you have a registered system and you put WGA on and have auto updates turned on and just let it get every update under the sun whenever it likes, it tends to just hum along without much trouble. However, if you turn auto updates off and try to be selective in the updates that you run, it decides that only a pirate would act that way and bingo pirate attack and tells you the licence is invalid.

Pre WGA I had 4 computers wth Win XP, 1 with Win 2K, 2 with Win 98 – all valid licences – I also still have valid copies of DOS 6, DOS 6.2, Win 3.11. One of my XP machines had auto updates turned on and had no troubles, the others I use selective updates on. Each machine that used selective updates has required revalidation every time I run updates because WGA said the copy was invalid. In one case I have revalidated the licence 12 times since WGA came in. Not any more.

I currently have 1 Win XP machine, 1 Win 2K machine and the rest run Linux (SimplyMEPIS 6). I have sold or given away 3 copies of Win XP – let some one else fight with it. And yes I told them why I was getting rid of it. Soon I will be putting Linux on the remaining Windows systems.

I don’t mind a company that says, we want you to register with us before we validate your licence and let you use it. I object to have to keep doing it, it wastes my time and money (phone calls add up in costs).

MS used to do some good things for the industry, despite Billy’s predatory business practices, but WGA and the over bloat in the kernel with security holes all over shows that MS is no longer doing good things. And Vista is going to be a disaster for corporations – how many companies really want all there desktops to be excellent multimedia machines, they don’t want staff watching movies or playing games all day.

Excellent Post!

In reply to I suggest you try using some logic, any logic, other than knee jerks

I’m not an IT tech, just someone who can put together a computer and get it to run. I’ve reformatted my hard drive more than once because of something going wrong, and I couldn’t find a way to get help that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg.

I tried the MS “discussion pages”, won’t ever do that again! I had to change my email address because of all the viruses some idiot decided to send me. I also discovered that only idiots work at the MS “help” desks – last one I talked with had to keep checking with his supervisor – never did get the problem resolved. How can someone who knows less than I do help me?

I’d like to say I’m amazed that MS won’t create a stable OS, but I realize they need the money,so rather than stablize a product, they just create new ones with more security issues! How lame is that?

After reading your post, I am seriously looking at a different OS or maybe I’ll just get a Mac!

That was exactly the same logic I used

In reply to I suggest you try using some logic, any logic, other than knee jerks

I had 2 home computers running Win XP, 1 running Win2K and 1 running Win98SE. I now have 2 running Fedora Core 5 with 1 dual booting to Win XP. The win2K and the Win98SE box got shoved off to a subnet of their own. I put IPCop on a $99 special, a P3 with 128 MB of RAM and 3 NICs for my firewall. Now I don’t have WGA issues at home.

I work I have 3 XP boxes on my desktop, 1 Win2K Advanced Server running SQL Server 2K. I installed IPCop on a junked SBC and one of the XP boxes is going to become dual-boot with Fedora Core 5 also. The remaining Win boxes will be sequestered behind the firewall and prevented from accessing the Internet. That will shutdown my WGA problem at work. If I could I would replace them all but I design Windows XP Embedded systems for a living!

Well, that was a complete waste of bandwidth, NotWise.com

In reply to Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

“Your voting record likely leans to the left as well.”

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

I complain about WGA and I don’t use Windows. The last time I checked, there is no such thing as an illegal copy of OpenSuSE, Debian, or Kubuntu, and I’ve got multiple copies of each. The problem isn’t with M$ enforcing licensing; the problem is the ways they choose to do it.

Dimwit (n.) – someone who votes Republican.

I agree: what a joke of a post. Except it’s yours I’m referring to.

what’s next???

In reply to Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

While I run a mostly MS shop, and have fully licensed software on my network, I am a little concerned about the big brother aspect of all of this. What is to keep the feds from saying, “Hey! MS! You need to relinquish more than just the licensing info you gather. We need further access into the sysrtems you have access into. Give us bank accounts, credit cards, and let us draw our own inferences as to who is innocent or guilty. Who cares if their lives are ruined? It is all in the interest of fighting the terrorist movement!”

“Save the inflamatory…. reply…. for a… joke!”

In reply to Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

Talking of “malcontents” and “childish” – your reply shows NOTHING of your logon name (nothing wise about you just dumb knowledge).

I’m a MS supporter and I still wouldn’t give them all my trust. The WGA is a hassel to me with a so called “update” every month – even though my machines, and my client’s machines, are legit.

The main problem with WGA is TRUST. Most of the MS supporters I know are having to appease their medium-sized clients with figuring out how to keep MS from access to their data. Quite a few would love to go to other platforms but can’t afford the major changes or lack of programs available. A lot wish that Wordperfect, Lotus, and dBase would have merged when MS Office was starting to gain market share. Computing might have gone down a slightly different road.

Trust MS if you want, but don’t think your so “wise” to hate other’s views.

Mr.SophWise.com meet the Mr.Dumb [read: Moron] Logic

In reply to Your name says it all… (i.e., Dumb [read: Moron] Logic)

SpyWare is spying no matter what you call weather it WGA or Sony anti copying device it is spying and sending inormation back to the company.
So I guess you aprove of website putting in tracking cookies in your computer to track your surfing habits.
Let me ask you this since you think I vote to the left side you don’t know how in the heck I vote and before you call a person moron or dumb you better check your own porch for dirt befor you start sweeping mine. or even this try walking a mile in his shoes.
I guess you never heard the phrase big brother is watching and it wasn’t coin by the CBS tv show but from a book title 1984 by George Orwell that was written back in 1948 on how life would be in 1984 where government people was spying on you and telling where to go and what to do 24/7 and the higher government official could turn of the propergand monitor but the lower people on the totem pole was force fed the crap.
I’m not against microsoft trying to crack down on ilegal software but to report back to Readmon wheather its legal every two week weather is spying plain and simple.
There is got to be a better way crack down on piracy and the way Microsoft is going about it , is going to hurt the mom and pop computer store.
So I guess you aprove of spying on people thats okay your entitled to your opinnion but what if your wife wanted, your company you work for wanted to spy on you 24/7 that wouldn’t be kosher in your book now wouldn’t.
Before you quick to judge a person on his voting habit or calling him dumb better walk in a mile in his shoes or better yet sweep under your own porch before you start to sweep under mine.

It killed my machine

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

Unwittingly I trusted MS recently and then my machine went to a crawl! I tore my hair out trying to fix.

I blamed IE Beta but when I deleted that, I was infected with virii and hijack aliens.

I nuked my machine from orbit and then MS would not let me re-activate it ?you?ve this software installed already!?

Yes IMO it really is just more spyware and it degrades one?s computer.

Wrong question

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

The correct question is: “Is WGA really a CRITICAL update?”

The correct answer is “no”.

MS should be taken to task for sneaking in a non-security-related update that benefits no-one except MS.

Many have been unnecessarily inconvenienced by this unwanted and unneeded intrusion. MS owes them an apology.

Now we know why they were so heartily exhorting us to allow them to automatically install updates.

As for me, I’m still running Win 2000, so I have escaped most of this foolishness and have started installing Linux. I will NOT be installing XP as long as they try to pull fast ones like this on their customers.

Not now, not ever.

Hooray – What do we get out of WGA ?

In reply to Wrong question

A cheaper product when MS no longers loses out to pirates ?
A more stable platform ?
A more secure platform ?
A wider and improved selection of hardware ?

WGA could be used as a vehicle to assist in all these objectives, which one offers more short term benefits MS more than tying up their customers though ?

Feel free to disagree, but say why, call me a commie or a linux loonie if you can’t think of anything else, but say where I’m going wrong.

PS I’ve got WGA on both my PCs with XP@ home, but both OEM XP Homes, straight out of the box and I’ve made no hardware changes. Seen absolutley no benefits though. Except no one can call me a pirate.

Tony, you’ve got it all wrong.

In reply to Hooray – What do we get out of WGA ?

The phrase is “Linux zealot”, not “Linux loonie”. Get it straight! 🙂

What do we get?

In reply to Hooray – What do we get out of WGA ?

Tony:

Sure WGA has some potential to be used for good purposes, but I don’t think it will ever create the benefits you suggest.

Cheaper – hasn’t happened yet, and unlikely it ever will. MS charges what the market will bear, regardless of piracy. The price/value proposition with Windows is weak right now and continues to weaken. MS maintains market share not buy “building a better moustrap” but by locking HW vendors to high-volume purchase contracts.

Stable? Only assuming MS would pour the extra $s earned by “pirates” buying licensed copies into developers whose sole focus was stabilizing, securing and hardening Windows against attacks. Historically that has never been top of the priority list in their product development.

Secure? See above.

Better selection of hardware? Huh? License validity isn’t a factor here unless it contributes to dilution of the WinTel dominance over companies like AMD. I don’t see how WGA would give AMD a helping hand.

In general I no longer trust MS to be forthright about their intentions with a utility like WGA. I couldn’t stop it from being installed (pop-ups every few minutes etc.) and there is big difference between what MS claims it is for (license validation) and what it does (frequent messages sent back to MS containing undisclosed data). That pretty much matches most definitions of “spyware”.

I think MS has a few reasons for WGA on their unpublished agenda.

1) Cloak OS and application usage tracking under pretext of “license verification”

2) Test the marketplace for just how much abuse customers will take before they walk away. This just demonstrates MS’s hubris and monopoly attitude. A smaller, less established company wouldn’t dream of pulling something like this for fear of loosing customers.

3) Increase lock-in to Windows OS by eventually shutting down Windows Update for MS Office when it is not running on Windows. hasn’t happened yet but if license verification for all apps gets tied into WGA then it will.

I believe that MS is smart enough to look down the road and see that the market for fat applications like Windows and Office will be declining sharply in the next ten years as thin clients and web-based replacements gain in popularity. MS has already seen a decline in profitablity over the last few years and it will get worse unless they get with the program. In the mean time we will see a lot of pointless BS like WGA and licensed-based cash grabs until they get organized.

The features that were in demand on the desktop are changing to where portability, always-on and wireless access are what is in demand today. Look at the feature set of a typical cellphone in the hands of a teenager today – email, calendar, camera etc. Do you thank that teenager cares what version “OS” that phone runs on? Computers are only decade or so away from that level of utility where the OS will be nearly irrelevant.

Thats my 2 cents.

Jason…

Not the answer I was looking for

In reply to What do we get?

I wanted someone who thinks WGA is OK to counter me bearing in mind those points.

Still no doubt your amplification of my sarcasm will give them a place to start.

OS will never be irrelevant, the more they can do at processor and hardware level the more we can make them do at OS and application, short of genetically engineering a silicon god, there is no end in sight, in fact even that would be a beginning.

Price to value ratio

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

Windows OS’s are over priced and over-buggy. MS could reduce the piracy by offering an improved (not just more gimmicy) product. I suppose; I buy mine over the counter and register. I wouldn’t have a clue about pirating the product.
I am sure that there is a way for MS to determine the legitimacy of an OS without loading spyware into our computers.

Definitely spyware

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

I’m all for protecting their software but not at the expense of our privacy.

Privacy somewhat irrelevant.

In reply to Definitely spyware

Not sure I have much privacy nowdays. I imagine there are dozens if not hundreds of surveillance cams around the world with shots of me picking my nose. Airports security x-ray’s all my stuff and makes me take off almost everything but my underpants whenever I travel… (I do like to think I can sit on a toilet without being under the microscope).

And when it comes to the big biz, the less ‘privacy’ they have, the harder it is for them to get away with stuff like putting spyware on their music CD’s…

What I don’t like is that their ‘anti-piracy’ measures are stepping on my fair-use rights, making simple -legal- tasks unnecessarily difficult, and increasing the cost I have to pay for their stuff.

Freedom

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

The main problem is that we should do as we like with what we own. Unfortunatly, our computers tend to function mainly with software we don’t own… we own licences.

This does justify MS to do whatever it likes with it’s software… Where this is a flawed position, is that the software resides on a hard drive that MS doesn’t own.

So all this frustration is that I, as a user and owner of the PC, “have to” install and store a piece of code I dont want on my PC. What MS doesn’t realize, is that it is also a pirate, hyjacking my diskspace against my will. Stealing software, stealing disk space… it’s still stealing, and at least, depriving me in part of my rights of ownership over my computer.

I don’t hate MS, I just think it has gotten so powerfull, it has decided to treat us like children.

Nice…

In reply to Freedom

You make a beautifully valid point.

What do you really own?

In reply to Freedom

I think that really boils it down. Since, according to MS, we don’t own the MS OS installed on our system, we have to do whatever they want.

However, we own the HDD, mobo, video card, monitor, et al…so what about them utilizing MY processor cycles to do what THEY want to do?

So instead of paying for their software…

In reply to What do you really own?

We should be charging them rent? Sounds like a good idea to me! 😉

now Defender encoded too

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

last weeks Defender update also has wga built in.

What’s the difference?

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

AT&T (the only one to get caught, but not the only one doing it) kindly forwards all your phone and Internet traffic through the government — “supposedly” to “protect you” from all those terrorists hiding behind every telephone pole by monitoring and snooping on every word you say or type.

For MS to ensure that you’ve paid for their software is not such a bad thing — provided they did it only the first time, and not on a recurring basis.

Americans have given all rights or expectation of privacy away. They allow “homeland security” to do whatever they want (details would make you cringe if you knew what all has been done) — while slamming private enterprise who’s only interest is making sure they get paid for their work.

? ? ? ?

Americans?

In reply to What’s the difference?

Please explain to me and the rest of the World Wide Web, what America has to do with WGA?

M$ is bigger than a nation, it respects no national or international laws.

Spyware

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

I believe any piece of software that is installed with false intentions and /or without consent that then proceeds to “phone home” with any kind of information is truly spyware. Microsoft should be ashamed of itself. But instead they just purchased WINTERNALS so maybe they can get their hands on all those nice people who can really point out the flaws in their software.
Or make sure they are “employees” who now cannot post the flaws of their software Either way this acquisition should of never happened, it is truly a dark day for computing

Interesting subject and valid points…

In reply to Spyware

Everyone here has valid points about MS and WGA. I don’t like it either. 3 out of the 4 computers I own with legal copies of XP, came back as pirated after installing WGA, one didn’t, I don’t know why.
Most people don’t know that there is a little black box in your car that records your driving habits. I worked at GM for nearly 30 years. If you get into an accident the police get the black box and downloads your info, your speed, when and if you hit the brakes, if you tried to steer the car one way or the other, so is that wrong? The box is based on a flight recorder in airplanes. There was a push for the police to have a decoder in the patrol cars but it got shot down. Get in to a wreck and someone gets hurt, you can bet your driving data will be sent to goverment and the insurance companies and to the local police. But back to topic.
I have switched one box over to SuSE10. I had a devil of a time getting it set up. Most people in the Linux forums are rude and snotty when I asked for help (newbie). They said we had to learn it the hard way and so do you. For Linux to take off with joe-sixpack, linux user need to loose that attitude. I posted that message and wow did I hit a nerve. However, I did find several people who took the time to explaine to me what I was doing wrong and what I was doing right. Those are the kind of peole who could take Linux to the masses and put MS out to pasture. Joe Sixpack does need a choice against MS, as it stands now he doesn’t. It seems that MS is the only game in town.

valid points

In reply to Interesting subject and valid points…

I agree with you on most of what you said. But you do get an arrogant few on both sides of the fence.
MS went from trying to make it possible for everyone to be able to use a computer to lets see how much money we can make. Linux was lets get away from MS at the cost that only a few can use it.
Linux people are trying hard to get their OS user freindly are are starting to get there.
Just remember that MS wants us all to go to a subsricption basis and made a deal with China that makes it against the law there to buy a computer without an OS (MS) on it. Why can’t we own one that doesn’t own something that we don’t own on it?
Europe annd South America are going the right way.

You must have got unlucky

In reply to Interesting subject and valid points…

As you either hit the wrong Linux User Group or everyone was having a very bad day. The LUG’s that I’m a member of would never react like that particularly with a Newbie as we try to help people out to see the light or at the very least have a passing idea of what they are trying to achieve and how to achieve it but like any community you will always get the jerks who believe that they are the only ones with the right way to do things and to Hell with everyone else. But I predominately am on the Debian Group so I don’t see to many of the commercial Distro’s and how the people who use them work. They are only hurting themselves and the entire Open Source Cause by caring on like that.

Most of the questions that I see have several different ways of solving a problem posted and the people asking questions see this as [b]Confusing[/b] as everyone has their own way of doing things. But the reality is that Windows is exactly the same if I do one setting one way there will defiantly be 30 other people who do it differently and they will all insist that their way is Best when really it’s what they are most comfortable with none are the [b]Perfect Answer.[/b]

The real problem with MS isn’t actually related to MS but the the box makers who Slipstream only the necessary drivers so many people think that all that they have to do is slip in a Windows CD and it will load everything necessary this is so far from the truth that it’s not funny with a White Box or OEM Install. Generally once you get the OS installed you then need to install Video, Sound and any other hardware that you have for the box and then printer & Scanner drivers if applicable and when you finally have all the hardware installed you can then start installing your Software. With most Linux’s it a one step process once you know what it is that you are doing. Personally I haven’t used SUSE for a while but they used to have a Document File Available for you to download to help you with the install and Setup I can’t see Novell removing that s it would be counterproductive to getting more people to a SUSE Desktop.

But having said that I would never recommend Debian for a Newbie either as it isn’t the easiest Distro to come to grips with.

If you want any help with a [b]LUG[/b] drop me a Peer Mail and I’ll send you a URL for the more common ones around the world which might be better for you.

Col

Spyware

In reply to Spyware

i dont have a problem with the concept of
validating the authenication, but when
it continually attempts to ‘phone home’,
then I consider it to be Spyware.
check you firewall logs and you’ll
see how often it attempts to.

Not the first MS created spyware

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

The topic of WGA is long overdue. It invades the privacy of
everyone! It is in my evaluation, a greater threat to those who do
use it legally as details about your legal software are logged.

Also… This is not the first time Microsoft has inserted Spyware
into Windows XP. Let’s not forget the Alexa/Alexia spyware,
courteousy of Microsoft, before SP2. See the following for
details:

http://www.driverheaven.net/archive/index.php/t-3669.html

http://www.techimo.com/forum/archive/index.php/
t-5603.html

http://www.infopackets.com/channels/en/windows/gazette/
2002/20021024_internet_explorer_6_spyware_alexa_registry_ke
y_part_2.htm

http://www.symantec.com/security_response/writeup.jsp?
docid=2004-062410-3624-99

While Microsoft deliberately stuffed this into Windows XP, Alexa
is an INFECTION that -can- affect more than just XP (see
Symantec). Note than the MSN search engine ties into the
spyware.

Many users cannot “just walk away” from Windows, regardless of
their reason(s). Software providers will NOT abandon support for
older Operating Systems IF they have a large enough base. IF
people do not like what Microsoft is doing, REFUSE the next
generation program (currently Windows Vista). IF the public puts
a freeze on XP and REFUSES to accept Vista because of MS’s
blatant intrusion into OUR PERSONAL BUSINESS, they WILL
change their policy. Most OEM’s (Dell / HP / IBM) have options
for which Operating System you want on the system, so you
have no excuse to move to Vista if you really don’t want to. And
honestly, as many “custom built” OEM’s as there are (both in
person and over the net), if places like Dell / HP / IBM / etc. stop
offering anything other than Vista (or whatever the newest OS
happens to be at the time), they too will lose business as people
CAN and SHOULD get a system from an alternate source.

In summary, while a gascan and a stake sound appealing, people
can effectively revolt against distasteful strategies peacefully and
as such, legally too. Everyone can make themselves heard this
way. And remember… It starts with YOU!

It’s not quite so easy as that

In reply to Not the first MS created spyware

When MS Launched XP they where selling 98SE alongside XP and 98 was consistently outselling XP on every front this was up to about SP1.

When MS realised that XP wasn’t getting the Market Share that they where hoping for they stopped supplying 98 and introduced the Backward License with XP Pro. I couldn’t even begin to guess just how many workstations that I’ve made with 98SE or NT4 installed with a XP Pro COA on the side of the case. Currently I’m no longer supplying 98 boxes very much though occasionally I do get asked for one but I do supply a lot of NT4 boxes for some of the older Mission Critical Software that is a very specific piece of software that will not run on anything else MS and as this software is in the 80K range it’s used because it saves the companies involved money and a lot of it as well. One application will allow earthworks to be set to within 1 cm of the desired level so the costs are reduced in everything, The companies involved use less fuel, are not required to carry away more dirt that is necessary and there is no expensive Back Filling involved, naturally the software is only part of the entire operation but it integrates with the laser sighting equipment around the site and on all the earthmoving equipment in there as well. Then because this is a dusty environment the boxes die quickly as they suck in all the dust floating around while the work is being performed . Currently the Company who sells this Hardware/Software package has no plans to rewrite the source code so we are stuck with NT4 as the necessary OS and will be for a very long time to come.

Just for your information I buy about 5 copies of MS DOS per month as these go into the control units of Computer Controlled Metal turning machines and they also have a hard short life what with all the metal shavings and cutting oil being spread around they don’t stand much of a chance and not many companies are willing to cease operations and pull out a 20 Foot + Bed Lathe to replace it because the Computer Controller has died. Removing things like this required the entire workshop to be closed and most of the equipment relocated while one piece is removed and replaced and then you have to rearrange the production floor so fit everything back in again. Milling Machines are the worse at killing their control units with Lathes a close second. Armature Winding units are not much fun to remove either actually they are really a nightmare to do anything with but repair the control circuits and get the things running again.

Because these systems are all DOS Based the entire Production Floor is a DOS Environment and the other computers in the offices are on a different LAN with no direct contact with the Production Floor units it’s really fun to trace cables with when you get a broken cable as in every instance that I’ve so far all the cables run at some point through the production area.

It’s really interesting to go into the control rooms where you’ll see one DOS Box and a XP Box beside it the XP box has the orders and the DOS Box has the required measurements in it that feeds the machinery. It’s never boring I suppose but it’s not easy work either.

But I’m missing the point here MS actually wants me to buy a XP Pro License for these DOS boxes and install DOS but at the same time MS Sales is selling DOS for about $80.00 AU per copy and XP Pro for somewhere around $250.00 AU for some strange reason everyone buys the DOS copies and the last time I heard MS was selling about 50 copies a month here in AU.

Col

AMEN! Extremely well stated!

In reply to Not the first MS created spyware

There are so many that simply can NOT afford M$’s [i]latest/greatest[/i] with it’s DRM/C.R.A.P in tow……………..

Remember Prodigy?

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

100 years ago a couple of large ISP’s/Content providers, Prodigy, CompuServe, AOL; inserted a cookie/widget on HD’s that reported your interests back to HQ. If you were an accountant all of a sudden you were bombarded with accounting ads. If you were a Dr., same thing with medical stuff. If they weren’t sued and stopped they’d be very big today. AOL barely escaped a harsh judgement.

DOESN’T MATTER

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

I had to use the WGA one time to get the updates I needed. Since I set my firewall to deny letting that information out. My OS and computer still works and I still get the updates on Tuesdays, but I do not upload the WGA daily as some. If you’re not runing a pirated copy once should be enough. Anybady, anywhere can find out just about everything about you on the web anyway. I do see the point in having to send your information. Again I don’t send anymore close the port, deny letting the info out. So far it hasn’t changed a ting as I use my computer daily.

WGA

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

Will this afect windows 3.11???

Since MS had stopped support for Win 3.11 prior to

In reply to WGA

introducing WGA it shouldn’t as it shouldn’t work on it. Also I doubt that WGA will have much effect on Win 98 now that they’ve stopped support for it.

Suse 10.1

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

Yes, the Novell site has it available for download, the full Open Suse 10.1 distro, 5 CDs + 1 “addons” CD. I also believe you can download them as DVDs as well for those out there with the space, time, and bandwidth.

I really like using it, though I just started, but a serious alternative to MS may be needed. I understand Ubuntu is very good as well. I currently have Suse 10 booting with Xp and Vista on my laptop, so eventually I may be able to help out the less fortunate or a company with whatever they have running. Who knows, maybe I’ll manage to install OS X on here sometime, lol. Being in IT means being ready for almost anything.

Ubuntu is OK, I tried it and prefer SimplyMEPIS

In reply to Suse 10.1

it is Debian based as well and uses the Ubuntu repository, so it has a bit more than Ubuntu.

A caveat and a recommendation

In reply to Suse 10.1

If you’ve got a decent Internet connection, save yourself the trouble of downloading all the ISO’s and use the net install option. That way you only download what you’re going to use, and if you want to install things in the future, you won’t have to hunt down your media.

SuSE, like most Linux distributions, cannot play MP3’s, DVD’s, or most other media that uses proprietary codecs. This is not Linux’s fault, it is the reality of living in a world of patents and copyrights gone mad. There are plenty of sites that will tell you how to rectify this (in fact, there’s even a step-by-step guide on openSuSE’s website), but doing this falls into a new category of acts: ethical but illegal. It’s not a very hard process.

If this is a showstopper for you, Linspire and XandrOS sell Linux distributions that include everything necessary out-of-the-box. They’re not free, but they’re not very expensive compared to Windows. The reason they’re not free is because licensing the necessary components costs money. I haven’t used Linspire, but XandrOS has a very Windows XP-like look and feel, and it’s Debian-based, so you can let apt-get spoil you with thousands and thousands of apps.

Mandriva does, too, but I don’t trust any company that fires their own founder.

Agree

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

I agree, is there a way to stop this, everyday, and as many times as you log in you have to do the update to this Window Genuine Advantage?

CAN IT BE STOPPED

That’s easy – dump Win XP for anything else

In reply to Agree

I switched to SimplyMEPIS Linux

Spying is spying

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage is anti piracy or spware you be the judge.

I personally do NOT want ANYone telling ANYone else what I am or am not doing. If I want my information given out, I should be the one doing so. And NEVER should any software do so without my express permission and notification of each event.
I realize that some of this can be used to improve products, but, once out, that information can just as easily be mis used. I want my info kept to me..

[Author]

Replies