IT Employment·20,059 discussions

Would you hire this person?

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Positives: A decade of experience at all levels of IT, including helpdesk support, pc support, systems administration, network administration & monitoring, app development (programming & management), project management, team-building, team-leading,systems integration, can-do attitude, hands-on expertise, works very well with peers, very ethical, does whatever it takes to get the job done. Also considered an excellent teacher/mentor.

Negatives: Often bumps heads with others (Unintentionally, though I do try to avoid conflicts), comes up with totally out-of-the-box solutions that no one understands, TOO proactive, wants to implement long-term strategies today. Not a “politically” savant person (i.e. I call it as I see it, even if it DOES mean a conflict)

Would you hire this a person like this? If so, why? If not, why not? Is it better to have a person who gets things done the right way (almost) all the time, but who usually steps on toes doing it? or is it more important to have someone who doesn’t step on toes, but who is not as savvy regarding possibilities and long-term solutions?

Topic

Not sure..

In reply to Would you hire this person?

The most desired qualities with an applicant nowadays is social competence.
The applicant may well know everything about the job but if he/she cannot function socially within the group the the skills and experiences cannot be communicated and has no value to the group.
Communication is everything.
My current employer hired me not for what i knew but for my social skills and for that i have proved that i can learn new stuff.
Regards. // Tom

Hmmmmn

In reply to Would you hire this person?

First off: I hope that your not listing your negatives on your resume. (im sure your not )

Second: You might want to learn how to play nice with others in the sandbox =;) You said often bumps heads with others. Hopefully not your peers in the IT department. And bumping heads and making enemies outside the department will get you a reputation after awhile. I know its hard to be nice to users when they ask or do something that we think is stupid, but we are a customer service part of the org.chart.
and its up to us to keep our cool and make sure that the user doesnt feel like an
(ID 10 T) thats idiot.

Most employers ask you what are your weaknesses: I hope that you dont list all 3 of those. Just say 1 and that you are workingon improving your skills at handling that problem.

Good Luck
Rad

TOO honest…

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Among the worst things I have done to myself include being totally honest (in an interview) about my ability to get things done. Yup, I’m proactive, occasionally aggressive, but always play well with others in my sandbox.

Turn your negatives intopositives in the interview. One of your strengths is that you think outside of the box, but maybe a weakness is your over-enthusiasm in getting an idea implemented.

Then you need to re-read your own 1st posting in this thread and ask yourself would YOU hire you.

Working with Others

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Overall, of the ~60 people that I work with, there are only two that I don’t work well with.

I’m in Apps Dev here, and these two are in our operations department.

I work well with my boss, my app dev peers, and three out of the four operationspeers. The other person in Ops that I don’t get along well with is two levels up for the “peers” group.

As I stated, I much prefer to live with no conflicts. However, if a conflict comes my way, I stand up for what is right. One big strength that I have, is that if I am wrong, I accept that I’m wrong and it does not offend me if someone else points it out to me.

You might learn to ….

In reply to Working with Others

… stand up for yourslef without rolling over people. When people are over enthusiastic about standing up for what THEY believe is right they can look like asses to others because it makes them look insecure or just foolish. There are many ways to do anything in my experience. Maybe you need to work on your self expression, and realize that most of the time people think THEY are right also. Good luck and happy new year.

Right? Wrong?

In reply to You might learn to ….

Maybe it’s just me (strike that – it definitely is just me), but what’s all this “right/wrong” stuff?

We’re just talking IT here, people.

There’s not likely a “right” or “wrong” way of doing this or that. There’s just “the way we do things here”, and “other ways”.

I would, I know.

In reply to You might learn to ….

I happen to sit just a few cubicles from AYoshi, so I have more to go on, than what he writes.
This shows that you cannot hire from a resum?, e-mail, or cover letter alone: you have to experience the person. Also, self descriptions can be dangerous. I personally don’t get to work with him, but I experience him as being gentler, and quieter than he thinks.
It’s not how you are, but how others think you are. Now we might get into politics, but that’s a whole other discussion (also on TechRepublic).

NO HIRE

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I have passed over people exactly like this, simply because it’s easier to teach tech skills to a “people” person than it is to teach people skills to a “tech” person.

Few people like those who alienate others, even if they fix problems and plan for the future. People problems are always harder to fix than technical problems.

When’s the last time you considered leaving a job because a computer was mean to you?

Toe Steppers are “people” persons too

In reply to NO HIRE

methinks you need to take another look at the original post. This person is considered a good teacher/mentor, is a team-leader, etc. A person cannot be good at these things by alienating everybody.

This person is a HIRE! This is an IT person you’ll love…and love to hate. Sounds to me like the toe-stepping and edge-pushing will happen when necessary. When the rest of the world is scared of falling off the edge of the earth, this person can be a savior.

The difference between this person and the one you would NOT want to hire is team-orientation and ethics.

—
Rob

toe steppers are not people persons

In reply to Toe Steppers are “people” persons too

The contradictions posted on this thread are amazing.

Liars are not honest people.

Thieves are not trustworthy people.

Bullies are not nice people.

No, I’m not suggesting anyone is any of those things, but…

…”toe steppers” are not “people persons”.

Maxwell

Depends

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Before I’d write up an offer, I’d want to sit down and do a development plan, and try and work on some of the soft skills.

You sound like a young person in the flush of being a great techno geek. Nothing wrong with that…but its a stage you go through. So I would hope that some maturity and exposure to different viewpoints and perspectives would help soften some of the people issues. Personal coaching and timely feedback also help here, so I’d want to know that your supervisor will have enough time for this. I too still step on toes occasionally, but my boss gives me feedback as soon as possible and that helps alot in preventing reoccurences.

You dont want employees who are totally adverse to confrontation, but you don’t want employees who are always in a confrontative situation either. Its a balance. You should develop flexibility and a thick skin. If there are two equally good solutions, sometimes you should explore the one you didn’t put forward to find out why someone else did.

In a nutshell, by acknowledging your faults you have accepted them, and if you can make a committment to work on them, then you are a hirable candidate.
James

Reply To: Would you hire this person?

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Intelligence is worthless if you don’t know how to use it, and that goes beyond coming up with incredible ideas. If you can’t get your point across without “stepping on toes”, you’re causing your own heartache.

Not in this economy

In reply to Would you hire this person?

There are alot of experienced candidates out of work that are competent AND play well with others. Soft skills are important – to the people that work for you and the people that you interact with at your level and above.
My ideal candidate would be someone that can provide solutions, be proactive, and has the proper communication and social interaction skills to bring their fresh ideas to the attention of the organization in a non-threatening manner.
There’s an interesting article in a recent Fast Company that suggests that it is good to hire dissenters into an organization – people that won’t go with the flow. One of the key benefits mentioned is that this brings a “fresh” perspective. While I agree with this concept, based on the content of this message, I do not think that the author currently has the interpersonal skills to properly present his ideas. There’s a business maturity that is lacking there, and this damages the author’s credibility.

Could be me!

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Yes I would, Even though it would probably be my head you bump into. I tend to do the same things, eg, Not worry about upsetting a few people when implementing a new idea\strategy that is beneficial to the company or majority of network users. One comment I always get from directors is ‘Don’t be thinking what will we need in 12 months time’. I fail to see sense in spending money\resources on a solution for ‘now’ when something can be done that works ‘now’ and will not be outgrown in 6 months time. And how can you be TOO proactive, Surely in the IT world with the speed of development and the proliferation of malicious intent (virus writers,hackers etc) proactive is the only way to be and no one understanding the solution you apply is about par for the course.

Regards
Chris Hirst

no IT without People.

In reply to Would you hire this person?

We have a wide range of people working in our department, ranging from the techno geek to the real people person. We find that, especially when the worker has to deal directly with clients, that it is the People person who performs best.

Lets face it, IT is there to provide a service to people so that people can perform there jobs better, so you need to be able to communicate well with those people before you can do your IT job.

Yes, I would… but….

In reply to Would you hire this person?

thats probly why Im not hiring people. I think that peoples ability to express what they feel is a valued asset. How would a company survive if an idea someone had was outside the box, very implementable, and a small risk, was not tried?

For allthey know, that person could set a standard and make the company money. Politicaly, I have found people to be of ill judgement and lewd. I tend to find the people on my level; hang with them and let someone else take the political hits…

Id rather be a low nobody than a political somebody. Its so stupid to have every word you say analized.

People Person – Explained

In reply to Would you hire this person?

One of the main reasons that I bump heads with some IT people is that my focus is on the business, and I have never had any problems with clients/customers/end-users.

Generally speaking, I try to build solutions for people that may not be “quite so friendly” for IT.

i.e. In the latest conflict (which I have just stepped out of completely to let management fight it out), I was requested to do a web-based contact list for On Call that would synchronize with PDA’s. This was done on Lotus Domino.

To fully automate the entire synchronization process, the application had to have a replica copy on each mail server, though all user’s would access on a central app server. The database was completed, then was implemented, then after three weeks of waiting patiently, it finally went live.

The same day it went live, the admin group (the same ones who placed it on the mail servers), came back saying that it was prohibited to have applications on mail servers, and so they deleted allcopies off of the mail servers, THEN they denied access to all but administrators to the central application.

The main question I had at this time, was, if it was prohibited, then why did the admins place the replicas on the other servers? Obviously, something had changed politically.

The “head-butting” that I do is 100% internal to IT, when people are trying to play politics, rather than providing solutions to business problems.

changing priorities, etc.

In reply to People Person – Explained

I can only speak for myself, but as an application developer, I’ve seen this sort of “yes we want it – oops, no we don’t” sort of situation before. Although it is irritating to me, I don’t let on (or at least try not to let on – we’re all human, after all) and try to get the communication back on track so that the requestor gets what they really want, instead of what they think they want.

Good luck!

You decide who is playing politics?

In reply to People Person – Explained

How do you know? Maybe there are good reasons for some of the decisions you do not agree with.
Maybe they are playing politics.

If you develop a reputation as a pain in the butt, you will be less likely to incorporate your proactive designs in the future and create a lot of bad feelings. There is always the possibility that the political hackers will begin to exclude you from projects and/or decision making because of your head-butting attitude.
You get more flies with honey and you should learn to pick your battles.

Reply To: Would you hire this person?

In reply to You decide who is playing politics?

Actually I do know:

But…. to clarify some basic issues,
a) if someone says they are going to do one thing and then does another, making it impossible to do your job;
b) when someone makes a mistake and immediately starts blaming you for it;
c) when someone makes false accusations with blatant and provable lies; and
d) when someone has proven themselves incapable of performing their position, and thus are intimidated because you know their job better than they do (this is what I believe the motive is);

How should I react? This person is peer level, and as of yet, I have not reacted. I actually try to be nice, but after a year of trying to be nice (my boss counsels to have more patience), how much farther should I be willing to bend over?

All of this is documented, and my management supports me 100% as they have “seen” these lies. However, this peers managers defend his actions as being part of the job requirements.

Sometimes honey simply does not work. And as I stated in a previous message, I actually prefer to avoid the battle, but rather to gain consensus. Kinda hard to gain consensus with someone who doesn’t want to hear an idea.

And if you are wondering how I can determine some of the things that I mention above? Six years US Navy, Four years as a VP at Citibank in NYC. Three years as CIO of a 500 person company in Bolivia with 8 sites spread over 5000 square miles of tropical jungles. So yes, I think I can recognize politics when I see it.

Victims of the situation?

In reply to People Person – Explained

At the outset, based purely on the person described in your note, I would probably not hire him/her unless the other talents proved invaluable for the job on hand and no one else could be found fairly easily to fit the job. And yes, the basis for judgement is relative & subjective 🙂

But based on subsequent discussions – I am wondering whether the situation is also a major factor. We have a similar case here where people in OPs often have clashes with people in Technology. Not sure whether this is because one group are the glamour boys while the others are back office.
And in this kind of situation, depending on the personalities – even trival issues could explode. Yet the OPs guy is perceived as a good service person and the tech guyis really good at his job.

Not sure this helps – but the situation seemed similar. May help to take a step back and review the stage and then the players!

Situation

In reply to Victims of the situation?

You are very perceptive.

Kinda off topic

In reply to People Person – Explained

It is all about control!

Quoted from orginal text:
“The same day it went live, the admin group (the same ones who placed it on the mail servers), came back saying that it was prohibited to have applications on mail servers, and so they deletedall copies off of the mail servers, THEN they denied access to all but administrators to the central application.”

Yes – But

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Without question – but would keep you (him/her) away from business users. IE the old keep them in a locked room away from the humans. Until they learn a little politics and how to play nice in the sand box.

First their ideas and solutions are not the only answer to a business question – second people (esp business management) don’t want to hear the true answer – they want it done. Don’t care how – their job depends on IT completing the task – don’t want to know the details – just get it done.

This person (or you) must understand that ideas and solutions are like assholes – everyone has one – and everyone makes a noise – and depending on how big it is – can be an SBD to your career..

Possibly….

In reply to Would you hire this person?

How good is this person at taking “constructive criticism”? I will admit that I have many similar negatives, but over the years I have learned that I have to adjust my goals to fit those of my employer. It took me a few years, but I did learn. I indirectly influence the hiring in our area, and if I felt that the person described above had potential to learn patience, I would probably recommend hiring him/her.

Actually doesn’t mind

In reply to Possibly….

constructive criticism as long as it is explained.

However, unexplained criticism, or criticism not based upon the truth, brings out the fire 🙂

Everywhere that I have ever worked, both at the lower levels, and at the Sr. Management level, I have always tried to “win arguments” by consensus, not by brute force. It’s when an argument becomes a “I have this power, so I’m going to do this, and then you have to see how to get around me” thing, that I draw the line and turn into a “steam-roller” (my bosses words, not mine).

In every “negative” situation that I have encountered in my current position, I have been found justified once BOTH sides of the story are heard. However, as I generally ignore negative remarks/e-mails (it’s better to ignore than start a flame war), I usually am the second person telling my side of the story.

So… we know how that goes 🙂

As far as patience? hmmm, depends on the situation, I can be very patient, but not always.

Sounds like me!

In reply to Actually doesn’t mind

It is tough when it’s a power play situation. I can be a steamroller as well, so my former team lead used to avoid similar personalities for fear of conflict. However, strong personalities are a good thing, to me, and I am always respectful of people who stand up for what they believe. If I encounter resistance, I am a good one for going above the person in question and taking it to the next level. This does not always win me friends. However, I believe that I am in this job to serve my clients (internal), and it is my duty to do what I have to in order to serve them best. As long as I handle it tactfully, it usually works out in the end! You sound like you’d be a great match here 🙂

Tough situations

In reply to Actually doesn’t mind

In terms of constructive criticism, I don’t know many people who take it well.

I’ve written many performance reviews, and helped my staff with their performance reviews of their staff, and they are difficult to write, difficult to deliver and difficult to receive.

I’ve found that “truth” is easy in many technical things, but tougher in human issues. Things are true from certain people’s veiws and perspectives. The trick is having a broad perspective, learning from others, and learning howto broaden the perspectives of your co-workers to include your persepctive. This is where steamrollers dont do well.

Its hard but consensus shouldn’t happen only when its easy to reach. Sometimes you have to lead by example, and bring people to the same point where you are. And to do that the best way is to open up the discussion, make sure all sides are fully heard(even if you have done it already in your own mind) and then lead the group to a decision.

I’m still learning and maturing after 20 years of experience, so I hope to give other the benefit of the doubt – so hopefully you will find someone similar who needs your skills, and will help you improve those “soft skills”.

James

Popularity

In reply to Tough situations

James,
As a former boss once told me, First Deliver then accept Critisism, make the change and MAKE THINGS HAPPEN! a job is not a popularity contest, you certainly need to have politeness but, Do what you gotta do.

Peers used to call him “X” the hammer for his stuberness to deliver results.

So far I’ve adopted some of that policy and boy, it has results!

Cheers!
Oscar
Guadalajara, Mexico.

IT is a service industry

In reply to Popularity

For the most part we don’t exist to make money – we exist to help the company make money.

You can be quick at delivering, but if you don’t deliver something your company needs then you have failed.

I’ve had to undo lots of years of mistrust and animosity from people who do what you suggest – it isn’t pretty.

We do things by consensus. Before we implement a new system, the support organization and the users all have to agree on the solution.

Not everything we do is popular, but we do strive for customer satisfaction and employee satisfaction. You can do those things well and deliver.

I think I’d hire Mr. Yoshi over you right now!

Cheers.

James

I remember when

In reply to IT is a service industry

I was working at a major bank in Japan as a contract PC support technician. As was my habit, I was taking a morning walk-thru of some of the business areas, when one of the end-users asked if I could be bothered to look at her PC.

I can’t remember the problem, however, I do remember that it took only a couple of minutes to fix. The user then commented that she had been waiting for several days for me to pass by, as she couldn’t work since her PC was broke. (this was a combination Japanese/English conversation).

I asked her why she didn’t call the helpdesk, because I would have come up immediately to resolve her problem.

She didn’t call, because it seems that the technician who was there before me had told her to “learn English,cause if you can’t tell me the problem, I can’t fix it” (or something like that). After that, she made it a habit of NEVER calling for a technician, even if her PC was completely broke.

I let her know that the other person was no longer with thecompany, so please call for any problems, and I would personally come to help her.

I learned several things that day from her reaction to what I’m sure were considered “innocuous” comments by the previous technician.

Thanks all!

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Even the ones who said you wouldn’t hire me!

I’ve found this discussion to be very insightful, and yes, I have learned from it. Please keep it coming!

No

In reply to Would you hire this person?

If you want this person to be the only one who sticks around…sure hire him. But, I would think that he would run off other people around him who might be able to step up and fill that position, and possibly exceed your expectations.

Servers….

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I came into my present client as a replacement for an earlier consultant (who also belonged to the same consulting firm). I came to find out that the earlier consultant was let go because he did not get along well with everybody. During the first six months of work I was treated as an inanimate object by some and opposed my moves. I resisted the temptation of standing up. I let my ethic and skills do the talking. Slowly I was appreciated and now am part of the group. The only reason they would let me go now would be because of ‘lack of budget’.

As people have said earlier in this discussion, if I was going to hire a person who considers himself a tekie without people skills, then the only way I would do is put him into an isolated room.Like keeping those huge Servers away. But then I would realise is maintain the isolation is going to be expensive (resource / time / money / energy… hungry). Alas, I can not do away with all the servers. But definitely I will let go of the memberwho might be brilliant and the greatest philosopher or whatever…. BUT DOES NOT GET ALONG WELL.

do you get the picture i have in mind…. This might be sad but true

Find another way

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Politics are politics and some people try to protect their own turf. You have to understand that and be able to deal with it. Sometimes you have to be smarter than they are, sometimes nicer and sometimes a SOB.

Someone is paying you to do this work and I suggest that you discuss the project with them and get this on to a higher level. The admin guys have a boss and someone somewhere has to balance the development cost they?ve incurred on your project v/s the admin?s concern of keeping their servers free of non-mail apps running on them.

Before you do that, I’d suggest that you spend some time and think about the alternatives. Is there a way you can do the same thing without putting your app on the Mail Server; could you put it onanother server. Have more than one option for your boss and then let your boss fight the battle.

<g> = grin

In reply to Find another way

Boss is back on Monday 🙂

Need to See/Check

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I would check references first, then I would confront the subjet to them… See what he/she has to say about those inputs.
Then I would perform some personality & skills tests, then after two or trhee interviews I would decide, based only in what the resume says, is not enough.
Candidates can be either too honest or true liers. And to be fair, I would consider more face to face conversations than a sheet.

Probably Not…

In reply to Would you hire this person?

1 – “a decade of experience at ALL levels of IT”

Not likely. I’ve been in IT for 20 and still would not make that claim. My experience is in the fields in which I have experience. If somebody comes up to me and tells me they have (meaningful) experience with EVERYTHING (in the field of IT), I dismiss them immediately.

2 – “a person who gets things done the right way”

This suggests that the candidate believes there is a “right way” of doing things. In addition to 20 years in IT, I have 50 years of life experience. I would say that there is no “right way” of doing anything.

3 – “comes up with totally out-of-the-box solutions that no one understands”

(this goes along with #2)

OK, so the candidate does realise that there are “other ways” to do the task. Good. But if the candidate comes up with something a little “out there”, it is his/her responsibility to “sell” that approach. If other people seem to not understand that approach, then it is the innovator’s problem to help then understand.

Or is not so much a matter of “understanding” alternative apporaches as it is accepting them.

A Story of Momentum

In reply to Probably Not…

I currently work in a very large corporate culture: 100,000’s of employees world-wide, in dozens of countries, with over 100 years of history, etc., etc. So they have a “way of doing things”. I disagree with a lot of it. How do I handle it? I figureit’s like steering a super tanker. I can’t just grab the wheel and say “we’re going this way, boys!” First off, it’s the Helmsman’s job to steer the ship, not mine. Secondly, the Helmsman takes orders from the Captain. Additionally, he takes the details of any course changes from the Navigator. And of course, there’s also the obvious metaphor of the huge bulk of the ship, and the momentum which it carries.

So I need to convince the Captain (not the Navigator or Helmsman!!!) that a change in course is appropriate. He (and maybe I) work with the Navigator to figure the details of the new course. Finally, the Captain tells the Helmsman to take some action.

After all of that, the ship won’t actually start turning for another half an hour.

Compare that to being the only occupant of a tiny little speed boat.

What I’m getting at, is while “thinking outside the box” is usually a “good thing”, getting an employer to act on that thought is going to take some work. And it may not always happen. That’s life, too.

Steering a super-tanker

In reply to A Story of Momentum

The best way to steer a super-tanker is to plan ahead, and know where you’re going.

🙂

Plan ahead

In reply to Steering a super-tanker

“Planning Ahead” usually works out only in the “ideal world” or movies. My experience in the IT world tells me, we don’f forsee everything and we miss some obvious things. Thats how things work out in the real life. Be practical, if you just keep planning to get things done, it would never get done at all.
Both software and hardware keep undergoing changes because of evolution.
Planning is important and essential and ought to be done.

GOOD SUBORDINATES!

In reply to A Story of Momentum

THE JOB OF A BASIC LEVEL EMPLOYEE IS TO ENSURE THAT THE SUPERVISOR DOES NOT MAKE ANY DECISION/S OR ISSUES ANY POLICY THAT WILL EMBARASS OR ENDANGER THE WELFARE OF THE GROUP, TEAM, COMPANY, PROJECT, OR HIS/HER POSITION.

TAKING THE INITIATIVE TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE GROUP, TEAM, PROJECT, COMPANY, OR HIS/HER POSITION. EVEN IF IT MEANS TELLING THEM THEY ARE WRONG WHEN IT IS NOT POPULAR TO DO SO.

We seem to forget that promotions are just to the next level of ignorance. Once that level is understood and percieved as mastered, promotion to the next ignorance leveL is permitted. We as employees seem to think our managers and supervisors are somehow more knowledgable, skillful, or insightful then we. This againis in “the box” thinking. Sometimes to get the tanker steered on the right course. The crew must tell the captain to shut up anD enjoy the ride.

The true leader would then stand back and let his/her crew work at what they do best. Achieving success on a daily basis.

GARY M
CEO/PRESIDENT
G3 SOLUTIONS, LLC

Clarification

In reply to Probably Not…

eBob, could you please reread the posting I made?

1. IT Levels does not represents neither IT areas nor positions. It does represent that I have held everything from entry-level helpdesk/PC support, mid-management and executive level positions.
2. I will agree that there is no “right” way in IT, however, I think you will also agree that there are definite “wrong” ways of doing things. Getting things done the right way simply means avoiding the pitfalls normally associated with doing things through planning, education and experience (the education is OJT, and learning from both mine and other people’s experiences). Avoiding the wrong way also means avoiding the necessity (or even the desire) of re-doing the system because of designflaws within the first year after implementation (and no, this does NOT include enhancing functionality).

3. There have been several systems that I have architected and built that other experts in the same area insisted were impossible because of the platform used. These systems were built because I made the case to the business unit(s) requesting the system. After the system is designed and built, I generally invite the people who said it couldn’t be done to “rip-apart” the system to ensure that the implementation actually does meet all business/technical requirements, and that it does indeed do the “impossible”. I have to admit, there are two reasons for this, pride in my work and to make sure that I didn’t overlook any details.
I’m sorry if I did not make myself completely clear to you.

Sorry, my clarity was fogged, too

In reply to Clarification

What I was trying to point out is that if a candidate for a position comes in to talk with me, and proceeds to tell me how (s)he has “all sorts of experience”, etc. – well, it is a big fat turn-off.

I look for people who have confidence in themselves and in their experiences (you, as a random example, clearly have that), but I try to avoid candidates who don’t seem to know what they don’t know (if you follow me).

In your original post, you used the expression “A decade of experience at all levels of IT” (you even opened with that). I have dumped resumes/covering letters in the bin without going much further. I’ll bet I’m not alone. The suggestion is: here’s another ‘vunderkind’ who figure he knows all and sees all… And that’s not very palatable, since it is so highly unlikely. And such indivduals almost always cause trouble.

I know (now) that is not what you meant, but it is what such an opening communicates.

May I offer a friendly suggestion that you perhaps tone that down to “a decade of experience in << these areas of IT >>”.

I think you might find grumpy old guys (like myself) are not as quickly turned off.

Maybe we could get together

In reply to Sorry, my clarity was fogged, too

and do a remake of grumpy old men 🙂

Only if I get the role of…

In reply to Maybe we could get together

the Walter Matthau character 🙂

Reply To: Would you hire this person?

In reply to Only if I get the role of…

LOL

IF YOU THINK YOU CAN……

In reply to Clarification

A MAN ONCE TOLD ME THIS;
“IF YOU THINK WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS IMPOSSIBLE, THEN IT IS.

IF YOU THINK WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS POSSIBLE, THEN IT IS.”

BASICALLY YOU ARE LIMITED BY YOU OWN MENTAL CONSTRAINTS. I KNOW A MAN THAT WORKED IN MULTIPLE PLATFORMS. EVERY TIME HE WOULD ASK A PROGRAMMER IF THE SYSTEM COULD DO A CERTAIN FUNCTION. HE WOULD BE TOLD IT COULDN’T. WEEKS LATER THE PROGRAMMER WOULD COME BACK AND THE SYSTEM WOULD BE DOING WHAT THE MAN HAD ASKED FOR IT TO DO. THE PROGRAMMER WAS LIVID. HE WOULD ASK HOW THIS WAS DONE. THE MAN WOULD SIMPLY SAY. “I FOUND SOMEONE WHO BELIEVED THE IMPOSSIBLE WAS ACHIEVABLE AND NOW IT IS.”

SURROUND YOURSELF WITH THESE TYPES OF DOING PEOPLE AND YOU WILL FEEL VERY REWARDED.

GARY M
CEO/PRESIDENT
G3 SOLUTIONS, LLC

Depends on the state of the economy…

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Currently would not, because this individual is a lone wolf. Things are done his way or no way; he is not a team player. Everyone else?s ideas just do not measure up to the ?Lone Wolf? standards. Thinking outside the box is not enough; you have to be able to not only talk-the-talk, but also walk-the-walk. In times like these, team players are essential; especially when personnel cuts come, ?Lone Wolfs? are expendable.

My military combat experience taught me that much more can be accomplishedworking as a ?Team?, with the ?Lone Wolfs? usually being the first casualties or the first to win medals.

“The Lone Wolf”

Is this person TEACHABLE?????

In reply to Would you hire this person?

If this person is teachable, then they are likely to be an asset. Not everybody has wonderful social graces, and all.. Are they willing to listen and learn? When you spend time with them and give them needed guidance, do they heed it? Or are theystubborn, prideful and arrogant. That’s what’ll make the decision for me.

I also know of super technical people that lash at everybody that you’d be a fool not to have them. Just stick them in a hole – give them work, and don’t make them interact with everybody. They are happy and so are you. If they turn out good work, then that’s cool. Not every job is for every person – maybe this job isn’t suited for this individual.

Maybe you have to form the job around the person to get themost out of them. It also depends on how much they have to offer and how valuable they are. We have people here that it would be DISASTER if they left. Similar lack of people skills. We try to accommodate. The alternatives are worse.

It all depends – it all depends…..

Things to consider

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I was once told by a CIO that it’s easier to develop a “good person” into a “great tech” than it would be to develop a “great tech” into a “good person”. I find that with the type of person you’re dealing with you still get the headaches you would get with a “not so savvy” tech however these headaches won’t ever go away as they would if you had a good person and tolerated the temporary headaches you would get from the lack of “technical savvy”. Just my $.02 worth.

Hire

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I have worked at many different companys through a consulting firm and I look at it like this if a person is very good at what they do and can save your ass in a jam then he or she doesn’t have to be an ambassador of good will put them in a back room somewhere and let them do what they do best.

Profit from everyones skills.HIRE NOW.

In reply to Hire

A GREAT tech is worth 100 admins.
And can lower the companies strategic costs by two orders of magnitude.

A medium tech is just that, medium.
So, depending on what You do technically, define Your “business case”. Are You medium (“good”) or great (“excellent”). If great, You had better be ready & able to prove it.

For the technies we employ, some are useless at “soft skills”. But they are worth over 1 M $ /year in contracts/profits to the company. So the human interfaces are handled by other people, with great people skills, but almost no tech skills.

So, for a great techie, hire an admin assitant.
It works for me (the business), for the techie and for the clinet.

IMHO.
But I must admit its out of the box … .

Great thread

In reply to Would you hire this person?

This has really been a great thread. I think I’ve learned some things by the interactions of the people. Personality-wise, I’m very similar to you. Here are some things to consider that I’ve picked up along the way.

1. Every organization has at least one or two “idiots” who have managed to make it up the chain of management. Many times they got there by stabbing someone else in the back and by pointing out other’s errors. Most people know who they are and you don’t have to point them out. Keep your cool, they will eventually self-implode.

2. Keep good records of meetings with the people you have the most problems with. You may find that the disagreements are actually communication problems.

3. Realize that you are not in charge and that the rise or fall of the company does not rest on your shoulder. (I have a hard time with this myself). Others get paid to make decisions — even dumb ones.

4. Dilbert is popular for a reason. I like Dilbert. He has manged tobe in every job location I have held — even before it became a comic strip.

Would I hire you? Depends. Were your “facts” written in a frustrating moment or does it accurately reflect you? If it is truely accurate, then no I would not. If, as you said later, your conflict is with just one or two people, then yes I would hire you on the condition that you keep working on decreasing the number of people you build conflicts with.

Calm and cool

In reply to Great thread

I learned yesterday that I’m now only 13 days away from finally getting my family reunited. We’ve been apart for almost two years now waiting for my wife and step-daughter to receive their Visa’s to come to the U.S.

The conflicts I’m having are limited to only a couple of people, however, it’s very frustrating in that a lot of the stuff that I do, passes through the entire app-dev process, QA process (and yes, the admins were included in the process but decided that they didn’t need to be present at the meetings), etc…. then having an application “yanked” after it’s in production for imagined problems.

I wouldn’t mind if he was right, because then I could simply fix the problem, and resubmit it through QA.

However, when it is:”We found a security problem in this application, so we have deleted it from the following servers, and restricted access on the following server.”, it’s kinda enfuriating (btw, that was a message sent from the “competitor” to his manager and the QAmanager. The QA manager forwarded it to my manager asking why I hadn’t properly documented the security, and of course my boss was as astonished as myself.

Hope this helps.

I also agree that this is a great thread

In reply to Great thread

I thought I’d get about two responses.

This thread has brought out several new (to me) and insightful perspectives on life.

I don’t like what all of them (wouldn’t that be boring), however, I’ve tried to put myself in the writer’s shoes, and would agree that the points made were mainly valid.

Even though I’ve “heard” many times most of what was said here, I think hearing it all at the same time may have a positive impact.

Thanks everyone for your comments (even if I didn’t like em)!

I WOULD HIRE THIS PERSON.

In reply to Would you hire this person?

IF I HAD A SPOT ON MY TEAM OR IN MY COMPANY I WOULD HIRE THIS PERSON. THE CHALLENGES I HAVE READ THAT IS COMMON TO MOST OF THE REPLIES ON THIS TOPIC, IS THE SAND”BOX”.

TO MOVE A COMPANY OR DIVISION FORWARD WE MUST HAVE PEOPLE WHO CONSTANTLY THINK OUT OF “THE BOX” OR REDESIGN THE BOX. THIS MEANS, GETTING IN THE RUT EVERY DAY AS USUAL THINKERS OFF THE STUMP AND OUT OF A COMFORT ZONE.

IT TAKES AN INDIVIDUAL/S LIKE THE ONE DESCRIBED TO ACHIEVE THESE GOALS. IF YOUR NOT FORWARD THINKING AND WILLING TO PUSH YOUR SKILLS AND MIND TO THE EDGE OF THE ENVELOPE THEN STAY HOME AND PLAY WITH YOUR CAT OR DOG.

IF YOU WANT TO GO PLACES AND HAVE A GROUP OF CONSTANTLY FORWARD THINKING ITECH PEOPLE, THEN HIRE MR/MS TOE STEPPER.

WORRIED ABOUT SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE? YOU HIRE A PERSON WITH GREAT COMMUNICATION SKILLS TO RELATE THE IDEAS TO OTHER CLIENTS OR DEPARTMENTS. THIS WOULD NOT BUT COULD BE AN ITECH PERSON AS A MOUTHPIECE FOR THE DEPARTMENT/COMPANY/TEAM.

MR/MS TOE STEPPER ARE THE VERY PEOPLE A COMPANY NEEDS TEAMS AND GROUPS OF. THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE WILL KEEP THE COMPANIES AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE FIELD AND CONSTANTLY COMING UP WITH NEW INOVATIONS IN “ITECH”.

THE TIME FOR COASTING IN THIS ARENA IS DONE. TO ACHIEVE SUCCESS YOU MUST HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE CONSTANTLY THINKING LIKE THE PERSON DESCRIBED.

SO THE NEXT YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR “BUTTING HEADS” WITH THIS TYPE OF PERSON. STOP! TAKE A MINUTE TO REFLECT. YOU MAY JUST BE DEFENDING YOUR COMFORT ZONE. BY DOING THIS YOU SPELL DISASTER FOR YOUR PROFESSION AND FOR YOUR COMPANY.

GARY M.
CEO/PRESIDENT
G3 SOLUTIONS, LLC

The sand”box” isn’t THAT bad…

In reply to I WOULD HIRE THIS PERSON.

…especially if it works. I agree creative thinking is good, but most of time, in my opinion, good IT people stay in the box most of the time.

If you have ever tried to edit a program made by someone who uses their own structure, instead of conventional structures, you might change your tune.

I have a few computers on my network (125) and I need standardization. I occasionally hire consultants, and have hired a few who can’t think inside a box. This is a bigger problem than someone who refuses not to do things “in the box.”

As a CEO maybe you should re-evaluate the value of social skills. My brain can only hold so much information. But because I am a social person who has many good relationships with people in the IT field. I also have access to lots of other people’s brains. People who don’t have social skills don’t. So who is more valuable now?

Just a thought.

Why does “out of the box” …

In reply to The sand”box” isn’t THAT bad…

Why does “out of the box” have to mean, not following a standard?

Out of the box (the way it applies to me) is taking the standards, and using those standards to the limits. As a matter of fact, I am all for having fairly stringent standards on everything.

However, when you have a business process that needs to be worked, and the options are:
a) spend thousands of dollars (if not hundreds of thousands or millions) to purchase a software to do it;
b) don’t do it; or
c) let’s figure out how to use our existing software/architecture/infrastructure to do it;

Option c will win the battle every time. However, it takes someone who can extrapolate, interpolate, and generally work around the stated software limits WITHOUT exceeding the actual limits to make it work.

On a recent contract, I had to assist in determining which scripting software we should purchase (at $40/head for 60,000 users) to guarantee a successful rollout of Lotus Notes R5 client across about a thousand variations of hardware/software images.

Solution, write a batch process, combined with KixScript32. Time to write and run through about 400 test clients? two months. estimated savings? ~$220,000.

Over the long-term, purchasing a scripting software might have saved money, however, it was a business decision to make, and with the costs of upgrading, training etc… are not considered in this.

Sounds good to me!

In reply to Why does “out of the box” …

What you stated sound like a good box to me! If you stay in that box you should go far.

THE “BOX”

In reply to The sand”box” isn’t THAT bad…

IF YOU ARE EL LOBO SOLO IN YOUR IT DEPARTMENT AND RUN IT YOURSELF. THEN YOU HIRE SOMEONE LIKE YOUR SELF WITH SOCIAL SKILLS THAT ARE RELEVANT TO THE JOB. IF HOWEVER THE PERSON I AM LOOKING FOR IS ONLY AN ADDITION TO THE TEAM AT THE WORKER LEVEL ANDNOT THE MANAGERIAL LEVEL THEN SOCIAL SKILLS TAKE A BACK SEAT. WE ARE NOT HERE TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT. WE ARE HERE TO BE THE ABSOLUTE BEST IN THE WORLD AT WHAT WE DO.

I HAVE BEEN IN THE SITUATION OF SOMEONE USING THEIR OWN STRUCTURE. IT WAS GREAT! WE OBTAINED AN AWESOME DATABASE FOR OUR COMPANY. IT HAS MANY FUNCTIONS THAT THE “BOX” ITECHS TOLD US COULDNT BE DONE. DOES IT MAKE IT A LITTLE TOUGH FOR SOME, SURE. WILLINGNESS TO LEARN IS A KEY ASSET AS WELL. ITECHS NEED TO GET OUT OF THE BOX AND PUSH ITECH TO ITS LIMIT.

BEING AVERAGE IS ABOUT BEING STANDARD. OWNERS OF COMPANIES DO NOT WANT TO BE AVERAGE OR STANDARD. WE WANT OUR COMPANIES AND PEOPLE TO SET THE STANDARDS AT WHICH ALL OTHERS ARE MEASURED TO.

I WANT “GREAT” ITECH PEOPLE NOT JUST GOOD ONES. THIS DIFFERENCE IN MENTALITIES IS WHAT SEPERATES THE OWNERS FROM THE MANAGERS. IT IS WHY SOME OF US OWN AND SOME OF US DO.

AAMERICANS WONDER WHY WE ARE SO BEHIND SOME COUNTRIES IN THIS FIELD.

BY THE WAY A BIT OF A BIO. I MAY SOUND LIKE AN OLD CRUSTY BUSINESS OWNER BUT TO THE CONTRARE. I AM 36 YR OLD BUSINESS OWNER WHO WANTS PEOPLE TO REALIZE THEIR POTENTIAL, USE IT, AND BE GREAT AT WHAT THEY DO. MEDIOCORE, STANDARD, AVERAGE, AND STATUS QUO ARE NOT AN OPTION.GENERAL GEORGE PATTON ONCE SAID (PARAPHRASE) GIVE YOUR PEOPLE THE JOB, GIVE THEM THE TOOLS, THEN STAND BACK AND LET THEM SURPRISE YOU WITH THEIR INGENUITY.

GARY M
CEO/PRESIDENT
G3 SOLUTIONS, LLC

Actually you sound like a YOUNG CEO

In reply to THE “BOX”

In my opinion anyway. All I meant by a box is is standards, I hope you never lose your wonderful programer who does things his way, because if you do I will sincerely feel sorry for you when you do. It sound like you have fairly simple needs or a simple product, because as a database programer, there are few things that can not be done in databases with the tools out there today.

By the way wat where would we be in database programing without SQL, a pretty good box in my humble opinion.

My point, which by your reply I think you must have missed entirely, was that just because someone says they think outside the box doesn’t mean they think better than the people who made the box in the first place. I find often that people who claim to think outside the box don’t like working in a structured environment and can tend to fight ANY structure. I need to my people and systems to be reliable.

By the way, talking in all capps is considered rude.

Just my thoughts.

THE BOX

In reply to Actually you sound like a YOUNG CEO

FIRST I TYPE IN CAPS BECAUSE IT SAVES TIME WHEN I TYPE AND WHEN YOU ARE USED TO PRINTING IN ALL CAPS (B4 EMAIL,CHAT.ETC..) IT SORT OF BECOMES HABIT. IM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE.

SECOND:
THEN WE MEAN THE SAME WHEN I SAY OUTSIDE THE BOX. EVEN IF SOMEONE DOES A PROGRAM THEY MUST FIRST DERIVE THE IDEA BASED ON SET STANDARDS FOR PROGRAMMING. BUT AS YOSHI SAYS IN HIS OTHER POST ABOVE. WHAT ONE DOES WITH THOSE STANDARDS IS THE DIFFERENCE. TO GET OUTSIDE THE “BOX” ONE HAS TO USE THE STANDARDS AS A BASE OF KNOWLEDGE BUT ALSO EXPLORE “ALL”OPTIONS. THIS IS WHERE GREAT ITECH HAPPENS NOT GOOD OR STANDARD.

GM

Your Web Site Link Are Defective…

In reply to THE “BOX”

and you say we must strive for perfection, hahahaha.

LINKS

In reply to Your Web Site Link Are Defective…

THANKS!
I’LL GET MY GUYS ON IT.
PERFECTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. ITS GREAT IDEAS IM LOOKING FOR AND PEOPLE WILLING TO STRETCH THE ENVELOPE. I ALSO REALIZE WE ARE ONLY HUMAN. SORRY YOU HAVE TAKEN THIS PERSONAL.

GM

Thanks

In reply to THE “BOX”

Can I work for you. You surround yourself with good people and you will be successfull.

The Box

In reply to The sand”box” isn’t THAT bad…

If it could actually be defined, I would say that the “box” was the process of using standard softwares according to the limits that the maker of the software had made, and using the processes that had been delineated in that producer’s white papers.

However, thinking “out-of-the-box” means taking all the information at hand (i.e. the white papers, the programmer’s manual, hands-on-experience, etc…), and getting the software to do something inside of your architecture which that software had not been “designed” to do.

In some environments, these out-of-the-box projects are what some people say: “Let’s get the software maker to fix it.”, “let’s wait for the next version to see if it’s included.”, or “let’s buy this 3rd party software which is close, then see if we can modify it to work.”

Due to improving technology, it is becoming much easier to work “inside the box”, however, until you have a software that has the capacity to do “everything” within it’s functional specs, there will be people/businesses who need to “get that little bit extra” from their softwares.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE!!

In reply to The Box

YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY OUT OF THE BOX. FOR TECHNOLOGY SAKE I HOPE MORE ITECH PEOPLE CAN THINK LIKE THIS.

GM

When can you start?

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I would definately hire a person with those qualities, both positive and (perceived) negative.
Having worked across the IT spectrum, from multinationals to dotcoms and back again I conclude that IT is composed of two clearly definable groups – those that DO things and those that have meetings to talk about doing things.
Forget politics – get the job done. Some of these people whose toes you may have to step on are usually part of the overall problem.

My Take

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Because of time, I’ll keep it short and simple.

I need technically competent people who are customer (user) -oriented. ‘Often bumping heads with others’ isn’t a skill-set I need, my business units need or my company needs.

Typically, these ‘my way is the only way’ personality types can, if you let them, lead you to the road to fortune or set you on a path of destruction. It’s a crap shoot (or a box o’ chocolates) on which one you get.

No, I wouldn’t hire you, but I would consider contracting you. Sorry if you were looking for confirmation of your worth.

Not looking for confirmation of worth

In reply to My Take

I was looking for the discussion that resulted. The whole object was to determine if I should be making self-improvements, and came up with the results so far that:
a) through reading the comments of the various contributors, and weighing them against myself, I really don’t “bump heads”, however, I also don’t allow people to “run me over”; in other words, I stand up for my beliefs;
b) I definitely do have some weak areas, which though not specifically mentioned, where touched on a couple times, and now I can work on improving those areas;
c) Confirmation that not everyone is alike 🙂 Just be yourself, and some people in the world will love you, and some people will hate you, while most will just let you live your life. The preference is to get people to love you, however, I prefer to simply avoid the “hate you” part.

Of course, I am now certain that some people will say that I should strive to be loved by all, but…. sorry, I’m not running for office this year.

No – Technically good. But?

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Though the experience is varied and good and the ability to come out with unique solutions, the problems are with inter-personnel skills. However good you are in technical skills, if your presence could disturb team members or give rise to conflicts, I would prefer not hire. Because technical skills can be thought. Inter-personnel skills are not gained by pure training. A major composition is the personality.

So teh answer is “No”

I would…

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I would hire this person…

and that is because, from his description hi is a strong caracter, and that is what IT want’s.
IT nowdays is a very dynamic kind of proffesion and this kind of energic person would be a perfect staff member…

Probably not.

In reply to Would you hire this person?

To a small degree I wouldn’t mind being like this person, being able to plung ahead and just tell it like it is. There are many times where I would have liked to ring the living s___ out of someone rather than be politically correct and nice and social. However, that’s not the real world, and we need to have some kind of decent relationships with others in order to function.

As a manager I would not want to deal with the headaches of putting out the social and politcal fires that this personwill definitly start. No matter how good they are technically. I would rather have an individual who can get along with others, has good communication skills, and can quickly learn the technical skills needed.

Better believe I would!

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I’ve been around too many lazy incompetent tech people to turn this down. I manage multiple sites and I’ve NEVER seen it done right when I’ve taken over. Too many whiners with incomplete skills thinking there is a work utopia somewhere out there. Sometimes its great to work most of the time it’s not.

I would avoid this person

In reply to Would you hire this person?

I’m assuming that these traits are either listed on a resume and/or articulated by this person in an interview. In other words, I’m assuming that these traits are described by the person him/her self. (I’m also assuming that this person is the author since he/she said, “I call it as I see it” and “I do try to avoid conflicts”.)

The first thing that stuck out is the huge contradiction. The second thing I saw is a people problem. A positive that was listed as, “works very well with peers”, certainly does contradict the negative trait, “Often bumps heads with others”. Which is it? I want someone who can disagree without being disagreeable.

Do you “bump heads with others” or “try to avoid conflicts”. It can’t be both. I want someone whoCAN avoid conflict, not simply try. I love the immortal words uttered by one of my favorite aliens, Yoda: “Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.”

In addition a “team-building, team-leading” person is one who CAN avoid conflict. And someone who “comes up with totally out-of-the-box solutions that no one understands” is not a “team building” or “team leading” person. He/she is also not an “an excellent teacher/mentor”, or he/she could help others “understand”

You claim “A decade of experience at all levels of IT…”. But my guess is that you’ve gone from job to job to job.

My maxim is this:

Hire for attitude, train for skills. It’s not possible to hire for skills and train for attitude.

I’ll take a rookie with a great attitude any day.

Best of luck,

Maxwell

Believe it or not

In reply to I would avoid this person

Okay, then maybe we should avoid “doing” the impossible. I frequently “do” the impossible mainly because I’m not afraid of “trying” the impossible and failing.

And as an example of bumping heads, while working well with peers, how’s this:

Contrary to what some people believe, a “team-building” and “team-leading” person does sometime need to get involved in conflicts OUTSIDE of his team to protect the team or to help the team reach it’s goals.

EVERY person who has ever worked for me has expressed their desire to CONTINUE working for me as though I was “demanding” on them, I also was realistic and fair to them, AND I taught them all that I could so that they could advance themselves both personally and professionally.

If it’s validation you’re seeking . .

In reply to Believe it or not

..perhaps this Web site might be helpful:

http://www.improvingme.com/article1046.html

I have to wonder, what’s your point in starting and continuing this discussion? “Would you hire this person?” is the subject of the discussion. You obviouslyquestion you’re worth. (And I don’t mean monetary worth.)

Are you having trouble keeping a job?

Are you finding the interactions difficult?

Do you feel unappreciated?

If you feel satisfied in your job and career, if you’re happy with theresults you’ve been getting (and I don’t mean “technical” results), you wouldn’t even entertain thoughts such as the ones posted here.

If you’re not satisfied with the results you’re getting, the only way to change them is to change the approach.

I love the words of that immortal motivational speaker, Zig Ziglar. “If you keep doing what you’ve been doing, you’re gonna’ keep gettin’ what you’ve been gettin’.”

Best of luck,

Maxwell

Believe it or not

In reply to I would avoid this person

Okay, then maybe we should avoid “doing” the impossible. I frequently “do” the impossible mainly because I’m not afraid of “trying” the impossible and failing.

And as an example of bumping heads, while working well with peers, how’s this:

Contrary to what some people believe, a “team-building” and “team-leading” person does sometime need to get involved in conflicts OUTSIDE of his team to protect the team or to help the team reach it’s goals.

EVERY person who has ever worked for me has expressed their desire to CONTINUE working for me as though I was “demanding” on them, I also was realistic and fair to them, AND I taught them all that I could so that they could advance themselves both personally and professionally.

Believe it or not

In reply to I would avoid this person

Okay, then maybe we should avoid “doing” the impossible. I frequently “do” the impossible mainly because I’m not afraid of “trying” the impossible and failing.

And as an example of bumping heads, while working well with peers, how’s this:

Contrary to what some people believe, a “team-building” and “team-leading” person does sometime need to get involved in conflicts OUTSIDE of his team to protect the team or to help the team reach it’s goals.

EVERY person who has ever worked for me has expressed their desire to CONTINUE working for me as though I was “demanding” on them, I also was realistic and fair to them, AND I taught them all that I could so that they could advance themselves both personally and professionally.

BEYOND ORDINARY…….

In reply to Believe it or not

Is when, ordinary people take the challenge of the impossible in a quest to achieve the unbelievable and reach the goal.

No way

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Not a true team player. The job is not about one person. You have understand the needs and goals to others.

Interesting Candidate

In reply to Would you hire this person?

Whether you hire the person in question is largely contingent upon your management style. Personally, I prefer results to fluff.

Although it would be nice to have an employee who excels at both, in most cases however, particularly the I.T. field, this is just not a reality. So it all boils down to either you want the job done by someone who is results-oriented, or you want a creampuff who is too timid to step on toes to accomplish the task at hand. I’d hire the guy.

Just my $0.02

Depends on role and your adaptability

In reply to Would you hire this person?

In my opinion, this kind of person can work well but needs to be adaptable and learn to control his weakness(es).

I would rather have someone who has the necessary Soft skills and the aptitude to learn the Hard skills in a reasonable time frame, than someone who is all Hard skills and can’t adapt to the business need. Very often you can’t teach Soft skills to people.

You need people who can think beyond their little IT box and think about business impact in all areas that they affect (e.g. Costs, business need for IT, sociability/interaction with users and Senior Management/Directors). Interaction above and below the organisational structure is extremely important in order to understand the overall direction of the company in what you are trying to achieve with the IT.
Just as important, is to have a (IT?) manager who can guide you in the right direction and be a mentor both technically and managerially – if the manager doesn’t have the right attributes then his IT people will likely not have them either. Very often IT people don’t have respect for their managers because the manager doesn’t have the track record in IT and is just an out-of-the-book manager.

I would probably give this person a chance providing he showed the aptitude and the willingness to adapt his social skills to the business need. However, if he showed a hard-line arrogance in the 1st interview, he wouldn’t get any further.

The issue: personal/professional growth

In reply to Would you hire this person?

The real issue is: What can this employee do for a potential employer, and what can the employer offer this employee? If there is mutual understanding, then the hiring decision is easy.

As an potential employee, I seek out employers that offer the opportunity for professional growth and ’employability’.

As an employer, I would seek imaginative, trainable employees that will help me grow my business. This includes offering ‘out of the box’ suggestions.

The ‘people skills’ desired can be taught, along with other skills. Check out a ‘7 habits’ training course from Franklin/Covey, sometime.

People skills CAN be taught IF. . .

In reply to The issue: personal/professional growth

I stated earlier in this thread that I (personally) hire for attitude, and train for skills, not the other way around.

However, tech_lead is absolutely correct in suggesting that people skills can indeed be taught. He mentioned Stephen Covey’s 7 habits book/program as a training tool. That is indeed an excellent program – and one that I practice. I listen to his set of 7 Habits tapes probably several times a year. (We could all use gentle reminders from time to time.)

There is one HUGE factor, however, in getting those kinds of “self-improvement” training programs to work. The “student” has to want them to work. The “student” has to be ready, willing and able to make some changes in his/her thought process. The “student” has to be able to do a self-analysis seeking ways to improve his/her “people skills”.

But if you’re talking about a person who won’t and/or can’t recognize that he/she needs improvement, you may as well try to fly to the moon. If someone is always blaming the “other guy” for the “people problems”, no amount of self-improvement study will be successful. I try to identify those who are, shall I say, hopelessly lost within themselves, and avoid them like the plague. I don’t care how greattheir technical skills may be. A negative attitude is a poison that can ruin a department – or a company. It infects others, and drags them down as well.

Nonetheless, tech_lead, that was an EXCELLENT point. I hope our “would you hire this person” person heeds your advice and buys the program. It could be the best investment he/she could make. (about 50 bucks for the tapes, 15 for the book.)

Regards,

Maxwell

Reply To: Would you hire this person?

In reply to People skills CAN be taught IF. . .

Hi AYoshi,

This is a very interesting discussion, you’ve initiated here. It certainly brings out interesting traits in people…

I was amused by maxwell_t_edison’s contradictory remarks…

“My maxim is this:

Hire for attitude, train forskills. It’s not possible to hire for skills and train for attitude.”

Shortly followed by…

“However, tech_lead is absolutely correct in suggesting that people skills can indeed be taught.”

But the best comment so far was this post.
Funnily enough he said it was off-topic!

It is all about control!

Quoted from orginal text:
“The same day it went live, the admin group (the same ones who placed it on the mail servers), came back saying that it was prohibited to have applications on mail servers, and so they deleted all copies off of the mail servers, THEN they denied access to all but administrators to the central application.”

The thing is, he was absolutely correct! When it come to clashes, more often than not it IS about control.

AYoshi’s big mistake when developing his system was not involving the OPs guys. I’ve seen that time and time again.

When I first started out, my small group became “production support” and proceeded to remove all production privsfrom the developers and put up a wall there.

I suspect AYoshi’s department is in something of a state of flux right now and there is no effective overall strong leadership and direction.

Regarding conflict. Conflict is inevitable. A good people person has the skills to RESOLVE that conflict. Not avoid it.

That’s what AYoshi needs to learn.

Cheers,
Tim.

contradictory if taken out of context

In reply to Reply To: Would you hire this person?

My two comments do indeed seem contradictory, but certainly understandable if you take it in the full context of the remark.

I explained the contradiction by suggesting the following:

The “student” has to be ready, willing and able to make some changes in his/her thought process. The “student” has to be able to do a self-analysis seeking ways to improve his/her “people skills”.

However, in order to avoid any misunderstanding, and to perhaps be more accurate, I should have originally said, “Hire for attitude, train for skills. It’s much harder to hire for skills and train for attitude.”

(Since most people think it’s always the other person who has the problem, not him/her self.)

So Tim, thanks for the reminder that I need tochoose my words a little more carefully.

(I still wouldn’t hire the guy.)

Regards,

Maxwell

[Author]

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