Wow, do I miss FireFox

Oh wait, Lynx is still more functional than IE....

by maecuff Jul 26, 2006

and Dana Carvey chimes in.. :)

by jaqui Jul 26, 2006

I use lynx regularly.
no pictures bogging down the connection.
no flash
no javascript
just plain old CONTENT, the way it should be.

though elinks and links both handle frames and tables better than lynx.

by jamesrl Jul 26, 2006

In my day we had GOPHER, and thats the way we liked it.

We also had terminal sessions and BBSs and we liked that too.

We didn't need no fancy FTP applications, we used a command line, and we LIKED It - kept out the riff-raff.

BBSing since 1986...on the interwebamathingy since 1992.

James
James

I used to like firefox, but developing for FF sucks and nothing works as well as it does in IE.

by jdclyde Jul 26, 2006

there has to be one in every crowd. Looks like your that one today.

Enjoy your non-tabbing, infecting your system by browsing, browser. :D

by Member 25348569 Jul 26, 2006

I think he develops for IE which allows him to be undisciplined, sloppy and to use all of the shed-loads of output by other sloppy, indisciplined developers out there.

FF isn't so easy for him - "nothing works as well as it does in IE" - and do we wonder why? I think not.

Neil :D

I see you all love FF like I used to. I would like to know how many of you (who like FF) do web development for both IE and FF, and how many of you experienced different results in both of the web browsers.

As for me,
1. some of css looks different in both of the browsers ? please don?t tell me, it is because I don?t follow w3c standard.
2. I need to include ?timeouts? in order for my dynamic pages to work in FF
3. dynamic pages break in FF when a user clicks on refresh or reloads the page.
I know some of you might just tell me that my code sucks ? but that will not fix the problem. I would appreciate valid pointers in making my code work better with firefox.
4. by the way I am not a M$ guy, as one of the posts ?jumps into conclusions?
5. If it was my way, I would have UNIX everywhere.

what do you mean?

FF is just one big hack....Can't you all see that!

IE FOREVER!

by sprinkl3s Jul 26, 2006

IE is microsoft which means less security so they can patch it everyday :)

by jdclyde Jul 26, 2006

that he didn't say anything about the tag for this discussion. Oh wait, he is a M$ guy. They aren't USED to paying attention to details! :D

by jaqui Jul 26, 2006

having to meet STANDARDS with your code.
that explains it.
you are just to lazy to code the way you should if you are a professional.

http://portableapps.com/apps/office/suites/portable_openoffice

well, I am new to this, and Yes I am trying to follow the standards - but there are few things that don't work in FF. It could be my code as I am new to this - so any valid pointers would be appreciated.
Thanks

by faradhi Jul 26, 2006

How about portable Open Office.

And if you act now you get a free Ginzu knife if you respond in the next 20 secs.

by danlm Jul 26, 2006

no knives please, im a clutz. I'd just cut myself.

I have a ssh client, ssh file transfer client, an editor, secure file shreader, file encryption tool, and now a browser on my thumb drive.

You know, it actualy might be nice to have a portable office software on my thumb drive. I can actualy see use's for that. Next. lol

dan

by onbliss Jul 26, 2006

Certain discussion forums load very slowly (sometimes just half way) at my Home PC while using FF. The very same load fine at work :-). And for strange reasons at work, the yahoo mail buttons do not seem to be clickable. Nothing happens when I click. But the yahoo groups work okay. I understand the environment is different at work and home. But I have'nt configured the FF browser itself any differently.

by webdevbyloki Jul 27, 2006

Now as a web developer, everyone would assume that I am a Love FF - hate IE.
But actually, I'm not! Why? maybe because I am used to IE but I'd say more importantly FF has cool features but also nasty bugs, and if there is anything that puts me off a product, it's most definitely bugs.

IE may be rubbish at things, but it works, I've never had problems with it. FF on the other hand I've had problems such as:
- Slow loading
- random crashes
and even on a few occasions complete dies where even an re-install would not help, all I could do is open FF and that is it, no buttons would do anything. And for those of you wondering, no, it was not my codes that broke it! ;-)

I will admit however that FF does have some very nice webdev features that I wish IE would have too...

Conclusion? I use IE for everyday browsing and FF (and many others) to ensure that my work is cross-browser compatible.

As a primal scream in the dark.

Being USED to ff, getting stuck on IE was a constant head slam against the wall.

Note about IE, and how "it works". I changed over all of our systems to FF when 1.1 came out. At that time I was spending about 60% of my time doing nothing but cleaning off malware/spyware/viruses. Now that we are using FF, it is less that 5% of my time spent cleaning systems. THAT is NOT "it works" for me. ANY product that so easily allows you to catch a virus just by viewing a web page is NOT a product I want used on my network.

FF have exploits? Few and fixed quickly, not denied that they exist and then fixed (while breaking something else) 8 months later.

and I can't complain about the great feature of FF - JavaScriptConsole.

...but IE is the primary target browser as far as development goes. Ofcourse we test it on FF to ensure things look and work correctly. Sometimes we have to put in so many hacks for different browsers and their older versions.

As you had remarked, I did not face any problems with IE that I can remember. With FF it is half-loaded page or apparent slow-loading. I love the tabs in FF.

by jdclyde Jul 26, 2006

The way he really drilled in and gave everyone such uncontestable examples of what "nothing" is, and what his acceptable level that gives a basis for what "well" is.

I am shocked that he hasn't come back to defend his claims against the TR GANG. :D

I'm sorry, I am new to this - what tag are you talking about?
- don't assume I am a M$ guy.
so I bet you are not running on windows?

Tags: firefox, jdclyde, tabbed browsing, internet exploiter

What the web standards REALLY are, not what MS says.

the W3C [ World Wide Web Consortium ]
is the body the sets the standards for website design technology.

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ is the link to the current standard pages.

it's not that FF doesn't do things right, it's that IE doesn't recognise the standards, and is the lower quality product.

FF, Seamonkey and Opera all render the standards about 90%, ie only at 50%

the W3C also has the Web Accessability Initiaive guidelines, designed to make all websites accessable by everyone, reguardless of browser or device used, including browsing on cell phones or handheld devices.

Microsoft, Macromedia are more focussed on making non standards compliant site scripts.
since they don't care about standards.

at my site, it's all static and uses xhtml / css exclusively, yet looks exactly the same in IE, FF, Seamonkey and Opera.

jaqui-greenlees.net

the line that makes the css display right across all browsers [ ie being the bad one for doing this ] is the first line on every page.

Thanks for your replay.

The static pages look fine in both browsers, although certain css styles are yet not supported by FF. example, scrollbars, or filters. (filter:progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.Gradient). But I can live without it. The problem comes in when I am creating dynamic pages based on the user inputs. The initial pages look fine ? but if a user decides to refresh the pages (for whatever reason) pages break loosing its css formatting and forgetting about JavaScript.

Any ideas?

it would be worth it's own discussion.

I am not a devoloper, but I like to sit on the side of conversations and pick up things.

Make a discussion, give some more back ground, and let people help you code your pages so they work with all browsers, thus not limiting your client base because of their choice of browsers.

If you do this, make sure to post a link HERE to the new discussion. I am sure most would follow you over, and many more would join in.

What is your development platform? Just curious.

Stu Nicholls website [ post title ]
has quite a bit of dynamic CSS, most of which is cross browser, including slideout and dropdown menus. [ as well as a combined slide/drop menu ]

He does everything without using a lick of Javascript.

I do have a link to it on my site, as well as here in my TR links.

you should know what tabbed browsing is? Instead of opening a new window you open another tab in the same browser.

I rarely just click on a link from anyplace that I might go back to, I just open the link in a new tab, read it, close it, and am back where I began.

In the case of TR, because of the load times, I usually have about 6 tabs loading from the different responses while I am reading one.

Just pushing in the scroll button on your mouse to open this tab is so much quicker than ANYTHING in IE. Right-click and select is NOT something I want to go back to doing!

Well, I have just tried clicking on the scroll button on my mouse to open a tab - and nothing happend (no tabs opened - I only got to see a circle with arrows). I did find tabbing option in Fine -> new. I guess it is a matter of preference. It is a bit annoying to me to right click to close the tab. Don't get me wrong - I am not saying I don't like firefox, I am just saying I don't like developing for firefox, as certain standards are yet not implemented.

Firefox works well on static pages, but not so well on dynamic pages where the content is being created based on user inputs. Pages look good and work well until user clicks on the refresh button. Any suggestions (other than reading the content back from the server)

Thanks,

just like double-clicking sometimes registers as two separate clicks if you move the mouse while clicking.

Push straight in while on top of a link, and that link opens in a new window.

I believe there is also an option where you can default ALL clicked on links to go to a new tab instead of a new window, but I like to decide based on the content how I want it to open.

...I learnt something: pressing the scroll button on the mouse to open a new tab :-)

did you know that same pressing of scroll button on the tab will close it?

The AVERAGE site I go to, I have about five tabs open. On TR it is closer to ten (nine right now).

by now left tr Jul 27, 2006

What was 'ye olde method' to inforce the using of FF as opposed to IE within the LAN?

( considerng IE can't be uninstalled :-( )

take away all the icons (pretty pictures) that launch IE, and replace them with FF links.

98% of my users are not able to launch IE because they just don't know how now. The other 2% are so busy they can't be bothered. Once it is explained how it is in THEIR best interest to use FF to protect THEM, I get NO resistance to this.

I have two users that need to log into bank web sites (HR and ACCOUNTING) that use ActiveX that doesn't work in FF. I created an icon on their desktop with the name of the bank instead of IE. They use IE for that, and FF for everything else.

Life is good. :D

...Ctrl+F4 is good enough for me. But the mouse's scroll button feature is darn useful for me. So you get just [b]1 credit [b] :-) for your tutorial.

when browsing the web, is your hand on your mouse or is it on your keyboard? :D

Which is faster? Keyboard or mouse? Which ever one your hand is on at the time! B-)

1 1/2? ;\

The position of the hands depends on what I am browsing. Sometimes it is on the mouse or keyboard. But it also is usually on my chin or scratching my head (which is most of the time - trying to figure out - you know I am slow, right?) or just on the chair / table, or toying with my fingers.... so most of the times I prefer a ctrl+f4 to close the tab or the window (in IE).

Ever since I became conscious of the fact that an outstretch hand to hold the mouse does not work out for me, I retract my hand as close to the body as posssible. Else pretty soon, my shoulders start aching.

Okay you get 2 credits, happy? :-)

Didn't know about that secret feature.
Thanks

Just wondering what is your level of programming to make you jump into a conclusion my code is sloppy.
Planty of sloppy code out there - I don't need to another sloppy programmer. Girrrlie

Can anyone tell me how to trap a back button in FireFox. I have created a dynamic page using javascript - and I don't want the user to see multiple incarnations of the page when he hits a back button. This works in IE but not FF (I have used the code from W3C). Real examples would help.

Currently I am using WindowsXP - creating an app using HTML, CSS, javascript and PERL.

http://www.jaqui-greenlees.net/example.html

copying an html file from my site and removing that first line, the < ? xml ...

then view it in both browsers...

heck, here:

with the declaration removed this is what happens with IE.

I viewed the example page both in IE and FF. I did not see what you are getting at. Are you talking about the scroll bar and the footer?

BTW, you must have seen my comment that we place hacks for all browswers - IE, FF, even NS and its older versions. So I was not giving a clean chit to IE. Under the same environment, FF sometimes does not load the page fully for me. That's the biggest thorn in my foot.

showing how one single line can sometimes be all that is needed for getting all browsers that work with css and xml to display the same.

with a first line declaration of the page being xml, IE goes into "quirks' mode and actually renders the page exactly the same as FF, Opera, Seamonkey and Netscape do. With these browsers working, I have 99.5% of visitors seeing exactly the same page.
with only one line for full cross browser functionality.

...can be done irrespective of the target, even in the most unforgiving language/platforms.

what languages do you program in?

If Onbliss would [i]let[/i] me answer for him I think he'd say something like:

These days, I program using C#, XML/XSLT, HTML, Javascript, ASP.Net.
Began career as a faculty teaching Dbase, C, UNIX, Computer Programming. Then moved on to customer support, installing and supporting SCO UNIX and Novell Netware. Then became a full fledged software developer. Programmed using Foxpro, Clipper, Power Builder, Oracle Forms, Delphi, Visual Basic 6, Crystal Reports, Oracle, SQL Server.

Of course Onbliss's profile is pretty lame in comparison to yours.

No shit

Peace, love, beer.

...my post was addressed to Neil, and not you. If I had addressed it to you, I would have prefixed "moon" or somthing in the title to draw your attention, as the 'max message' level was reached.

Secondly.... nothing more actually :-)

...now I am really suspicious of my FF configuration or settings - or just myself. Help~~~

In this example, http://www.cssplay.co.uk/ie/valign.html,
Stu say's the text should be centered. FF totally left aligns it. Whereas IE centers it and adjusts it as I resize the window.

What am I doing wrong. My FF version is 1.5.0.5, and OS is XP Pro.

Stu clearly mentions that this works just for IE6, and at the moment it does not work in Mozilla...

Just a few months ago, I was working on a task where I had to get some aligning done using styles. Oh, what a nightmare it was. I was trying to get it work on all browsers, under different text sizes. Like Stu says it is complicated. No doubt Tables are still used for alignments.

It is a nice site, but I need a little bit more than css to create pages based on user input as well as do some field validation.

Let me just pick one from this list,
UNIX - not a programming language

Beeer.

by now left tr Jul 27, 2006

The bank will not accept FF as a browser yet :-(

by mjwx Jul 27, 2006

is it with one bank or all of them?

Here in Australia the 4 major banks (NAB, ANZ, westpac and commonwealth) made it a point to ensure that all their customer could access thier net banking site in all browsers. Even smaller banks like United Credit Union make sure all pages display correctly in FF.

If we can do it here what the hell is holding up the US banks.

by danlm Jul 27, 2006

I have two accounts, one in the city I use to live in. Which is a state credit union, and one here in the new state I live in. Which is a normal bank.
FireFox works just fine at both.
Which banks?

by tig2 Jul 27, 2006

TechMail is not in the US.

In smaller banks, it is still not accepted. I assume because they aren't willing to spend the $$$.

You're right- it should be an accepted standard as is IE.

by nicknielsen Jul 27, 2006

All of the majors that I've dealt with (Bank of America, Chase, Watchoveya) and even several credit unions are browser neutral.

by now left tr Jul 28, 2006

You know the same bank that sponsors the Grand Prix, Rugby, Golf - has offices all over the world and has profit of 300+ Billion per year

TBH I have not tried with FF in a while. It may work now (may try). Just remember getting the message "yadda, yadda unsupported browser, please use..."

by tig2 Jul 27, 2006

The way you are sounding is as if you had pinned your preferences to your chest- and nothing else will do.

I've had to toss code back over the wall because it did not meet test criteria. I have written failed code. No one is questioning your abilities.

And incidentally- if you want code, go to Onbliss- not me. I do other things these days.

All NB is trying to tell you is that you are in the wrong place and please don't attack people. Reasonable enough.

As JD suggested- if you want real assistance, open a thread in the appropriate forum.

Edited for typo

by nicknielsen Jul 27, 2006

Used it for a year & a half until I got my laptop. Still have the flash drive & update it periodically.

You never know...

You may indeed be a fine upstanding morally correct worthwhile individual capable of superior rational thought and headed for great things [i]if[/i] you really understand beer.

I can overlook a lot of things for a "true" beer lover.

No kidding?

I did not know that. My fall off of the turnip truck yesterday must've caused memory loss.

I was merely trying to point out that there may be at least one person at TR that may possibly know something that you know and maybe even one or two things that you don't know.

I'm going to blame Onbliss for everything. It's surely been a month by now. You won't get this part so don't worry about it. I might have to explain it to Onbliss too, again.

.... :-) life would be more richer.

Though the profile looks moderately impressive, you must note that as stated in my profile, I have already forgotten everything (almost). Memory, focus, concentration, grasping power yada yada have been my nemesis... Jason Bourne character and the guy in Memento atleast had some trauma for their memory loss, I do not recollect any such thing :-)

Anyway I do remember the bit about blaming. Yeah you can blame me again. I would have forgotten why I was being blamed by the end of the month. Good for all.

crack me up. That is a really good thing and it is a rare event when people can make me laugh right out loud. Truth.

You have certainly enriched my life my friend. Keep on keeping on.

Posted in the wrong(?) place but I don't care. (To the tune of "Jimmy cracked corn".)

and what if the person visiting your site is like me?
and follows the recommended action by all security professionals and has ZERO clienside scripting technology active?
no javascript.
no java.
no flash.
no activex.

How will your site work then?
For the last 3 years Security Professionals have been saying to NOT use clientside or have it enabled in browsers.

by onbliss Jul 28, 2006

What if:
1) I am ready to accept the loss of few clients like you, as long as the percentage is minimal, if it is going to save me in development and maintenance costs?
2) An enterprise does not care for the loss of few customers, as it can afford to do so.
3) An enterprise is one of the few players in its industry, and customers just accept the rules set by the enterprise.

If you are going to say, no company would ever accept the loss of customers or orders. Let me tell you, I have been, personally, in a non-web project where some orders where just being lost (ofcourse bugs in the system), they were ready to ignore it as long as things were small and the Sales was making its numbers.

you are right,
until you point out that by using sever security risk technologies they are in violation of privacy protection laws.
and by using clientside scripting they are in violation of international business law, unless they pay for cpu time their web app is using on site visitor's computer.

by tig2 Jul 28, 2006

But it should be Project Management's job to point out those issues and insure that business makes appropriate decisions based on the risk and lack of ability to mitigate.

As a developer/architect, Onbliss only gets the requirements that business has signed off on and must manage to those requirements. When points like that are missed or ignored (and that does happen), the developer is still required to code based on requirement as it drives UAT.

Your points are valid. Sometimes the failure is in PM, sometimes from business. Development's hands are tied.

Edited- spell check, please!