Ageism? Good Idea?

Hi Robb,
When I took my first job as a chemist in 1968 (I was 21), there was a 50 y/o head chemist in the lab. I figured that he was just some old fart that learned chemistry in the early 40?s. It took me some time to realize that my resistance to him was due to my insecurities. He took me under his arm and I learned more chemistry in the next year than I had learned in 6 years of college. He taught me that chemistry was as much an art as a science. A concept never presented to me previously.

My first computer experience was 35 years ago with a main frame. Then the first desktop, in 1971, where I programmed it with punch cards. Then my first PC with 4 megs of ran and a huge 10 MB hard drive.

You say that no one uses DOS anymore. Pal, 99% of users use DOS. What do you think Windows XP Pro uses? Have you ever used a ?Ctrl V? to paste? That?s a DOS command.

Granted, over the past 35 years, things have changed a great deal. I suspect I could learn a great deal from you and I immagine you could learn a thing or two from me.

The real jewel to be found is the person you can count on doing-what-it-takes that also knows what that is.

Consider interviewing a person on the telephone where you can only judge their capacity to deliver the results you need.

Check their references to see if they keep going when the going gets tough.

When you find that rare and valuable individual you won't care what they look like, male or female, young or old because they will hit the ground running and be one of your best assets.

If you think I'm kidding next time you see an attractive teen (male or female) consider your parents and grad-parents once looked like that.

Time changes appearances - integrity is a core value that transends time.

Robb,

You are a bigot and an idiot. I bet you have the same opinion about women IT professionals as well.

Hey genius, in less than 20 years you will more than likely be in your 40's. Are you going to take your IT experience to WalMart and be a greeter? May I remind you that Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein had productive careers well beyond their 60's. In fact Albert Einstein said that he could learn something from every man. Are you going to suggest that you are more intelligent than Einstein? There are a percentage of older IT workers that will not adjust, but I have run into significantly more younger IT workers that think they know it all and are far more difficult to train. Why are all of the CIO's for the fortune 100 in their 40's 50's and 60's?

It is the desire of the person not a their age that determines their ability to learn.

One more little tidbit. Socrates said-after he turned 40 I might add- that "the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing". You are an exception, clearly you know nothing and still you are not wise.

I am in my forties and I recently received my BS in Information Technology after working many years in other careers, so I fit into both categories -- a newby and an oldie.

Since I've already read ahead to see that you are disguising yourself as a "kid", I feel I can reply to both of your personalities.

I think that many people who became programmers back in the DOS age are stuck on knowing the old technology. These people should take current courses in order to update their knowledge base. I also think that the younger people entering the job market should be aware of the older technology since many businesses are still using it, but I don't think they need to have an in-depth knowledge of it. The main focus in colleges and universities should be on the current and emerging technologies.

In my state, there was talk of licensing IT professionals. This would require IT people to take courses on a regular basis in order to maintain their licenses -- a certain number of CPE credits would be required similar to the way accountants have to maintain their licenses. Maybe this is not such a bad idea.

Ageism is rife in the US and the UK, I should know I am a Brit living,and unemployed in the US. I am not an IT person , but I am a Commercial Credit Consultant with strong leanings for IT systems performing in Credit and Accountancy functions as they should. I am also of mature years.

I think a lot of you need to investigate Robb's article further. His comments are very provocative, and stimulate further discussion on how one prevents ageism.

A search of his own site http://www.milmates.com reveals the following article.

Ageism In The IT Sector? Impossible!
Robb Kimmer May 2005

I have to admit that I have grave misgivings about attitudes held by some, if not the majority, of people in our industry with regard to age.

I recently carried out a simple test/survey, to see if my suspicions were valid, or had any shred of support. I created a CV for myself and placed my current photograph on that CV. I then applied for 100 vacancies across the IT industry, via a variety of recruitment web sites.

Over a two month period I sent out this CV with some small modifications to make sure that it was pertinent to the position for which I was applying. Up to now I have not received ANY offers of an interview. Yes, I know, my face is the problem! Thanks for that.

One month ago I created another CV for myself. This CV had a photograph of me when I was 35. The details and the jobs applied for were identical. I applied to about 30 job vacancies (all with the same recruitment companies, and where possible, the same job vacancies), using this CV and photograph. I have received 6 offers of an interview and one direct offer of an actual job. I have also been asked to come to a couple of recruitment offices for interviews. That certainly did not happen with my 'truthful' CV.

What can we make of this? I suppose the first thing we can say is that my current photograph displays a rather ancient and wrinkled soul, one foot in the grave and the other in a hospice. At least that's what you could assume as the reason for the lack of response to that CV. The second CV displays a picture of me when I was younger and seems to be far more acceptable and effective than the current image. Both CVs contained the same content. I changed nothing other than some minor details to make the CV more accurate in relation to the particular job requirements, and of course I changed my name.

There is no doubt that recruitment agencies have a problem with age. They will deny it most vociferously. It must be difficult for some fresh-faced twenty-something interviewer to be faced with an applicant/client, who is older than his/her father. It can't be easy to have an interviewee who knows more about everything than the recruitment company staff.

Recruitment companies need to wake up and address this problem. The reasons are urgent and obvious. They cannot be serving either of their clients (the companies and the applicants) properly, effectively or fairly. The companies are not getting the best people and the applicants are not being exposed to the employers properly, if at all!

My opinion is that recruitment companies need to wake up to the problem and sort out a solution. They also need training to help them deal with this ever-increasing problem. We are all getting older and there are more and more of us each day. The problem is the fact that the people with the experience are not those fresh-faced graduates that the recruitment companies and employers seem to love to entertain and for which both salivate. The people with the experience, and experience trumps certification and university degrees every-which-way, are those with the years behind them. When employers and recruitment companies wake up to that fact, we will all be better off. And they will have to wake up to that fact sooner or later, given the demographics of our country.

If you apply to a recruitment agency for a job, please let us know the age of the person interviewing you and the response that you get from the job application. Of course, this test only applies if you are over 35. Now that's ageism if it's anything!!

Robb Kimmer can be contacted by e-mail.

And here I was expecting to find that Robb was just an unemployed "IT Consultant" and was taking it out on us "old" guys.

Not that it matters that I have been in the IT field longer than some of the new pups have been alive but I am STILL better than 99.9% of those comming into the field, plus the retreads who came into the field as a second career types will ever be as productive or knowledgable.

For the record I am the youngest person in the company at 40!

- beads

What if we applied the inverse? What if we prevented people with experience from entering the work force? An employer says, "Look, you're eighteen, come back in twenty years." Do we want that? I don't.

What else do you get with age and experience? Expertise. What do you get with youth? Inexperience and lots of outages accompanied by some youngster uttering, "ooops."

In reality, we are all needed. The old to provide wisdom and sagacity in decision making, the young to receive that wisdom, add their own, and carry us all forward. But if the young reject the wisdom of the elders, then they will be doomed to learn anew what others long to pass on. Then, if they pass their age bias to those younger than them, we never truly advance.

We are all beneficial. Besides, if the older folks didn't provide value, they would be let go. The bottom line still rules.

I have 38 years of technical experience. Guess you would consider me to be an old timer. Two years programming in State Dept of Education and three in banking. Twenty-one years converting banks,providing support, and managing a data center processing eight banks. Managed a $32,000,000.00 Federal contract of 152 employees working three shift seven days/week for three years. Managed an AFDC Training Center for two years teaching AFDC Recipitants data entry skills and placing ninety-seven in full-time jobs with benefits. Taught Intro To Computers at local college in the evening for seven years and one year of summer school. Assist many neighbors with their computers. On Technical Committee to review/recommend county dept. of education IT curriculum. So many things so many times it begins to boggle my mind when I think about it. I worked 56 1/2 hours straight without going home,taking a shower, or brushing my teeth to solve a $46,000,000.00 problem. You don't get many opportunities to do that or bond with co-workers in the process. Studied Visual Basic for six months, wrote about fifty programs, in the evening on my own to get the feel of it. In 1990 I was laid off from a downsizing situation. I borrowed a friends more powerful computer with $4000.00 worth of Novell training software and studied it ten hours a day seven days per week, tested myself until I felt comfortable enough to search for a new job. Started on a Novell job and converted to NT with over twenty servers. My mind is as inquisitive as it was over fifty years ago. When I was fourteen and no computers I met a retired Mechanical Engineer who became a close friend. He taught me many things. He could stand on his feet in his basement shop, Pall Mall in his mouth with two inches of ashes, carry on a conversation, be working with his hands on a project, and calculate any algebraic or mathmetical problem in his head concurrently. I know absolutely that all of us fall far short of our potential and we are just a flash in the pan in the grand scheme of things. There are only three or four things that have guided me through the years. (1) Like what you do. (2) Be dependable no matter what. (3) Maintain good health because you cannot work or play without it. (4) Help others when you can because it makes you feel good. Just remember the computer is a tool to help you play or work. Keep it sharp and keep yourself sharp. Learing this trade is a never ending process and you can become obselete if you do not stay with it. Criticism is only good if it is polite and helps to solve a problem. Some people call it sharing ideas.

Think before your speak. You can't lump everyone into one category. There are some older IT folks who can run circles around some of the younger ones in keeping up and transferring skill sets. I recently worked with a middle age group of mainframe programmers who like the intelligent folks they are attended several java progarmming classes and then wrote a new intranet based application for us that rocks using this new language. The expertise and high performance in the one area was very transferable to the newer language and platform. P.S. Remmember your not getting any younger...

don't worry rob, if you live your life right, you too will have the shoe on the other foot and do all you can not to be left out.
Life's a cycle, you just don't know it yet

I think you have a lot to learn in not just IT but also the way of the worlds. There is a lot more to a position than just technical skills ie: knowing how to deal with people, change, knowing resepect and following the proper change of command. I have truthfully found the younger generation woefully lacking in these areas, whereby not providing a well rounded contribution to the team. IT has changed, but if you have someone "older" that does not mean they do not keep up with the latest and greatest. On the contrary most are where they are because they have and know the importance with continued education. The lack of repect in your message will get you nowhere in Corporate America.

I'd sure hate to be you when you turn 40! Toss ya out to pasture nibble on some grass (or smoke it)... ahbidee ahbidee that's all folks! I believe MOST older folks have much wisdom, even in the IT field!

Sorry, in the private world you are wrong about youngters being the only people in the tech world.
However, in the military I will grant you your view as only puppys under 30 can properly fight a war. The reason being is that the under 30 crowd think they know everything and will live forever.

What sort of prat are you DOS is still behind XP... Perhaps you should shot all people over 40 then it will cure all the problems but I guess you will want to change the rules in 25 years time when you reach that majestic age -

grow up!

A typical response, son. You fail to realize what value there is in having seen the develoment of Windows from 1.0 to it's current state, understanding how it came to be this way, and why it works the way it does. It's easy for inexperienced youthfull fools to think their limited view of current events encompasses all there is to know, but of course, being young and foolish you are not aware of the fallacy of your belief. Perhaps your Father or Mother failed to instill respect for your elders. Come work for me, and I'll blow you away in ten minutes. I know more, have done/seen more, can work harder, longer, and without whining like the youth of today. Maybe you'll grow out of your stupidity, but I doubt it. Oh, and seeing as how you know everything, don't ever ask for advise.

"people smart enough to make mistakes? :0)"

Know that people do make mistakes because they're imperfect and that teamwork involves trust built upon honesty and communications.

Know that maturity is admitting mistakes so that others learn not to make the same mistakes and that we as a team can prevent similar mistakes.

Just like everything it depends on the person. I've been working in IT for 10 years and working on computers for 18. I think DOS is very important; knowledge of it allows me to more easily write scripts for deployment of software without spending an arm and a leg to buy a package to make it "easier" for me, i.e. a GUI interface because I don't know command line procedures. As for hiring / firing "old-timers" it depends. What experience do they have, are the still interested in the work, are they willing to take part in continuing education? Answer these questions and then decide before saying that everyone over 55 should go.

1. Study the new.

2. Keep the old if it is useful.

3. Don't judge anyone by age alone. Performance is what matters. I am 50 and just completed a tour in Iraq supporting tactical networks. My co-worker was 27 and we did just fine. As civilians (we both are prior military) Old and new worked damn well.

4. Leadership, leadership, leadership...!

I am 64 years old and my Volvo is 23 years old. I can get away from the lights faster than any standard V 6 family car.

My regret is that I missed out on DOS altogether because I only entered IT at Windows 3.1

My first computer had CP/M.

My MIND can keep up with the new technology, but my wallet can't.

IT is a profession, that eats it's young. It's a short term career. Study for it, and enter it at your own peril.

I entirely agree with you!
I'm 57 now and have spent some 36 Years Programming. I enjoy the job and and I do it all over again. For me it is only the attitute that counts. I want to keep working for as long as possible.
I have seen a lot of changes and am glad to have worked in a Field that offers so much new to learn.

but at least when finished, would know

1. It's called Assembler for a reason

2. Systems architecture is not merely passing objects

3. Have a working knowledge of UML

4. And know that a smile lasts longer than a laugh

Oh, another smart a$$ young tech who thinks that he knows it all. I've tried to save several of you from being fired for causing data, time and money loss for customers. Those who listened to what this old DOS tech told them before they screwed up know to listen to experience and have gained from doing so. Those who didn't listen ended up unemployed. And I wasn't even the boss. It was my boss who fired them for the screw-up, not me.

IT isn't a race and keeping up isn't what IT is about. If you survive 20 years in IT, you'll know this. I know many things I can do in Windows XP using DOS that cannot be done, or cannot be done as easily using the GUI.

But with your attitude about those with experience (this probably includes your BOSS), you'll never reach the 20 year mark in IT. You'll think some "old tech" isn't worth listening to, you'll screw up, and you'll be fired.

Good luck!

In teaching an OS class once, a student challenged me that DOS was outdated and no longer necessary. I challenged the student to copy all of the DOC XLS MDB TXT GIF and JPG files on the C: drive to a second hard drive (say drive f:) while keeping the original source directory structure. The student could not tell me how to do that in GUI short of a hell of a lot of work.

I then entered a command window and typed

for %f in (DOC XLS MDB TXT GIF JPG) do xcopy C:\*.%f f:\ /s/e/v

and then I walked away while the PC did the work. The student never doubted the value of DOS again.

Too bad Robb wasn't in that class.

I agree!
But Who will feed my Wife and kids.

Better still; they should exterminate the older guys and their families also.

for Robb of 05/07/05.
Older persons in sports car cause less accidents than you.
DOS, try to do net start or ipconfig without a DOS session.
XP rescue is again a DOS session.
Older ITs have much better human relations interface.
55 year old has seen most if not all the pitfalls.
The young do not have patience. How many have stayed behind after 5 pm or come out on a weekend.

Passing exams like CC or microsoft does not make a technical support person.
Most of the pitfalls and their solutions are not written in any books. Most trainers keep such information under their hats.
Not everybody runs 2003 server and XP SP2 clients.

The problem of the young relatively inexperienced ITs is that in their dog eat dog world they think that older ITs will show them up for what the young ones do not know.
The young ones do not realise that older ITs have more sense and do not go for dog eat dog.

By the way Robb, do not forget as time goes by You too will become an Older Person (over 40).
Also when You have children you will have a problem squeezing them into your new sports car. Your wife will eventually have problems with the acrobatics of getting into your Morgan (do you know the make?)
Do you know how to repair windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME?
Do you know what Novell NDS means versus AD?

So... let's see, how old are the current heroes? James Gosling, Ander Hejlsberg, Bill Joy, Robert Martin, Martin Fowler, Ward Cunningham, Grady Booch, Jim Rumbaugh, Kent Beck, Richard Stallman, the GoF guys, to name but a few...

Maybe I am a poor judge of age, but my guess is that none of these guys is some snotty-nose just-outta Chubb wunderkind who thinks there's nothing of value in the tools and solutions of the prior decade.

Not that any of these guys is ancient, by any means, but... clearly, age and experience lead to great insight and innovations; maturity is the key to going beyond syntactical skills to adding real value to your clients, customers, and the industry as a whole.

I'd rather have a seasoned programmer new to a specific platform than a platform specialist new to programming.

I must have been on a major project, because I missed the start of the discussion. I am a retrainee into the IT field. I started in 73 on mainframes. Configured and installed 80186 back when. I still use DOS and Linux and oh by the way my favorite car is the Morgan. And by two (2) motorcycles are a Moto-Guzzi and a Roadstar. Youngster still come to us folks of wisdom to enhance their skills.

Signed
63 and counting.

When I was in college, in the last century (late 70's), I worked as a plumber's helper. We had 2 guys come right out of high school vo-tech that thought they knew it all. They said they knew everything about plumbing but complained about everything they were asked to do and always said, "That's not the way we did it in school." Both lasted 2 weeks before they quit. Now that I'm 40 something I realize is that when I was young I knew next-to-nothing and now I know just a wee bit more than nothing. I'm still learning and still yearning to learn. And no one knows it all or has seen it all, but we can all learn something new from each other - both young and old!

I saw a thread the other day with 4 pages of whining responses from tech support people and system admins who couldn't figure out how to use a command-line utility or determine where the resulting file would end up or how to get to it.

Not only do I know how to use the command-line, I know how to look up what I don't know. With the internet, there's no excuse for needing to be spoon-fed.

I spend about three non-billable hours a day just keeping current and wasting time responding to jerks like you.

I've been programming for 25 years, starting with COBOL and RPGII. Since then I've coded in many basics, many assembly languages, PASCAL, SPL, Forth, Postscript, C, C++, on HP, IBM, Atari 800, Commodore Amiga, TRS-80. There's probably other's I'm not thinking about. I now program in C# and VB.NET and I'm still learning new skills every day.

I'm 58 and you can bite me punk.

You are right on the money. It should be about the ability to do the job regardless of age (old or young). Unfortunately there is way too much brash and flash these days.

Some day the yung'uns will know what it's like to be looked at as not a part of the human race. Expertise? Sometimes, wisdom and sense are more important than a certification.

And that is why today we see a drastic reduction in the amount of young people entering the IT field...according to your logic there is no future in IT!

For a minority of people, yes some do slow down mentally with advancing age...but not usually until retirement age.

Then there are the late bloomers who peak well into their 40's and cruise at high altitudes past retirement.

Back when MS-DOS was waning...I was in my thirties and witnesses college kids saying that "DOS is Boss" when I was moving on to NT and newer versions of Linux and Solaris.

As I get older, I find myself nearer the cutting edge of innovation than when I was young. I also am able to focus sooner and cut to the core issue of any technical problem...that comes only with experience over time.

I started my IT career at 57 and I am still going strong...leaving the kids in the dust because they haven't yet learned how to think.

I wouldn't might of hiring a 55 year old as long as s/he's willing to learn new things and is a good employee not smart ass.

Why do you think the 'dot-bomb' came from?? Young know-it-all MBA morons that wouldn't dare subscribe to the true and tried methods of running a business.. I know... I have run across them trying to resurrect the impossibly dead!

At 49, I remember the chant in the '60's...
'Don't trust anyone over 30!'
Gawd! I honestly feel sorry for any company that has this twerp employed with them!!

Lando

And if there were, the job application you are filling out would not include (X yrs. experience can be substituted for advanced degree.)

How many of us who having worked with long time IT professionals have experienced this scenario; Have the old timer overhear a problem being discussed which had been baffling the young bright degreed/certified administrators for days or even weeks. Have that old, out of date, oldie/wrinkly offer the solution as a casual observance based on having seen a similar problem with a totally different technology or software. This seemingly uncanny intuition these older IT professionals enjoy comes from years of practical experience. Operating systems come and go, but inherent problems stemming from the relationships between hardware and software never change. Only the experience gained from being a part of the evolution of technology gains the insight to recognize their repetitive nature.

Young people listen up, it is not dumb luck, and those seemingly WAGs offered by the oldies are usually based on past experience and the wisdom of age.

Dan Miller
55yrs old
IT professional since 1971, 6 different companies without a single day of unemployment and yes I am a wrinkly, but once upon a time, I was the wiz kid!

The best team profile is a combination of knowledge, power,audacity, maturity, freshness, change willingness,experience, principles and values among others. You can't find all of this only with young people.

I have been in this field for about 20 years. One of the reasons I got into it was that things change and I am a person who likes and believes in change. I also like to research and try to find better ways to do things. My boss will tell you that I am the first in my group who wamts to try out a new feature in software or OS or wants to check out a new device. One of the advantages of having so much experience is that I tend to see and understand what's going on with a piece of technology much more quickly than my younger sidekicks.

Now here's what's going to burst your bubble. I will turn 60 in March. I have 20-30 vision, most of my teeth and five gray hairs (I tend to give gray hairs and not get them).In fact one of the big advantages of this career is that it keeps me intellectually sharp. I can't understand why you wouldn't think this is important to someone my age but it is.

I doubt that you ever listen to NPR on weekends - strongly suspect you are more into sports (hey I can have prejudices about young males,too), but just in case you have the chance, tune into the am news program on Saturday or Sunday and see if you can catch Daniel Schorr - He's 89 years old, sharp as a tack and full of WISDOM.

Well thats an interesting point of view from a person who will soon wear the shoes they are putt'n down
I'm in mid 50's and -Very- few in their 20's let alone 30's can keep up with me, in any degree LoL.
The surest sign of technical obsolecence is the inability to transcend the mathematical parameters of the base theory...
and dear geek, that includes your obese ass lol

Amend.

I run my own company and I am 55 years old. I believe that each person should be ranked by their knowledge and acomplishments and merits not by their age, sex, race or religion. There are laws in the United States that protect everyones rights in this matter. For your information, I returned to college and recieved my BS in Information Technology as well as a MCP from Microsoft. In todays workforce you need to work on teams that include different skills and members that are not the same as you. If you can't accept this then you will not be hired.

where I use to work all the younger developers kept going on about dos, I was the one who got them to move to .net from vb3 and 6 and they were always stuck for ideas come to me yes this 46 years old got them into using com + xp from 98 extra and taught them VB.net which I found easy to learn while they struggled( just got girls on their minds) Terence Lowry ps I am now struggling to get a job becauce of people like you still give me more time to go hang gliding

Well, I have to say this. With Age and Experience, you find out how to do things right the first time, so no, we don't keep banging the keys. Writing software is a mental exercise, after all, and that comes inside, not throught wasted action. I retired recently because I don't like windows because it is an absymal OS. And that is on a good day. It crashes, it takes millions of cycles to do simple things, and it is simply the poorest written software available as an OS. Marketed well, but still not a good sign of engineering. It is like a Japanese car of the 1950's.

With that out of my system(S), Where did mr Robb learn abuot computers? Did he read any of the books by Marvin Minsky? Did he read any of Lance Leventhal? How about Steve Ciarcia's books? Perhaps from Julio Sanchez or Maria Canton? Does he know how old these folks are?

Did he go to school under some 25 year old professors? Or did he learn from the old folks he is now disparaging?

Regards,
Les H

55 will get you run over here.
But back on topic, I'm 59 and just finishing a BSIT (finally decided to get the degree). I have worked over 40 years in electronics and computers, and love the challenges, enjoy the hardware aspects and the software challenges.

BUT! Windows as a business OS (other than email or browsing) just annoys the **** out of me. (and it doesn't do the first two all that well either).

LINUX shows real promise, but comeon, there must be something in the wings that manages to have a GUI but still remains fast and secure.

So I went back to school. Unfortunately it appears that our colleges have forgotten about innovation, about what makes us powerful, and how technology innovation can drive our world.

Maybe I am an old fart, but I do know that we need something more powerful, more able to take advantage of the innovation of our many talents, and to be more useful to the vast majority of users. Unfortunately I just do not yet know what the definition and needs really are. I think Microsoft is on the right track, but lost in the technology battle. I think Linux shows promise, and I think that the real innovators required for the next "PC/APPLE/OSBOURNE" revolution are still out there somewhere. One of us here may know who that is, or what that new OS is, and if so, please tell them to get on with it, or get our help to bring it on.

And I did read that Robb started this thread to get us all fired up. Looks like he succeeded.

Regards,
Les H

55 will get you run over here.
But back on topic, I'm 59 and just finishing a BSIT (finally decided to get the degree). I have worked over 40 years in electronics and computers, and love the challenges, enjoy the hardware aspects and the software challenges.

BUT! Windows as a business OS (other than email or browsing) just annoys the **** out of me. (and it doesn't do the first two all that well either).

LINUX shows real promise, but comeon, there must be something in the wings that manages to have a GUI but still remains fast and secure.

So I went back to school. Unfortunately it appears that our colleges have forgotten about innovation, about what makes us powerful, and how technology innovation can drive our world.

Maybe I am an old fart, but I do know that we need something more powerful, more able to take advantage of the innovation of our many talents, and to be more useful to the vast majority of users. Unfortunately I just do not yet know what the definition and needs really are. I think Microsoft is on the right track, but lost in the technology battle. I think Linux shows promise, and I think that the real innovators required for the next "PC/APPLE/OSBOURNE" revolution are still out there somewhere. One of us here may know who that is, or what that new OS is, and if so, please tell them to get on with it, or get our help to bring it on.

And I did read that Robb started this thread to get us all fired up. Looks like he succeeded.

Regards,
Les H

hi, Col,
I am 59 and just bought myself an 883 Sportster. It's just a small Harley, but they tell me it will hit 116 anyway. I don't plan to check that out, but I love it anyway.

Regards,
Les H

Hmmm... where I'm currently located, the IT department has 6 members. One in his fifties, one in her forties, two in their thirties and one 2o year old. The fifties gent seems to be the IT department guru, the person to call when you have a tough problem. He's also half of the duo that are keeping up with new trends and technology, picking up new certifications, etc.

Too many IT people at any age fail to realize that they are on the Red Queen's racetrack so I'd have to disagree with you that age alone is a reason for not hiring. I'd rather have a flexible and still learning antique than a 'nothing left to learn cause I know it all' young'un.

Just my thruppence worth.

You are so proud of your accomplishments you don't even fill out your profile. But that's ok.

Your number of replies in these forums says a great deal also. But the truth is that this is a rancorous debate. It is often glossed over with lots of "make nice" by HR folks, and by companies, but the real truth is that it is not age that is the problem, but that they think the job is so easy that anyone can do it, so they refuse to believe that we are worthy of the salaries we command. At least until they parse off all the senior people and find themselves without a company. You cannot survive on bias and bull**** for very long.

I think your heart is probably in the right place, but this comment is so stuffed shirt that it is painful to read.

I love this work, but I am retiring for personal reasons. I am envious of those that continue to carry the torch. Cluster computing, demand computing, wireless, the high speed serial stuff, all are great evolutions for this industry. AI, voice, notepads, and technologies on the horizon are wonderful, and I have had a great career with three of the largest ATE companies in the world. It has been wonderful, but don't go stiff on us. There is more than enough starch in the world. The innovation suffers, and the world is poorer without the color.

Happy new year, mr amcol, whereever and whoever you are.

Regards,
Les H

Your generalization about "..oldies struggle to keep up with change.." is as stupid as it is insulting.

Ted Codd was well over fourty when he posited the concept of the relational database.

You exclude experience at the risk of making the same mistakes again and again.

Agreed, It's not important to understand DOS, but it is important to understand the low-level functions of a disk operating system because that's what you're using, even if it hides begind a fancy GUI.

And as to "..a wrinkly driving a sports car..", kids now days can't even drive a stick shift! (There, I made an insulting generalization of my own.)

I'm 64. I fly a Cessna 182, and I learn a new programming language every couple of years. I just finished a project in C#. Great language! Need I point out that Anders Hejlsberg, the fellow who created it, is over fourty?

How long until you turn fourty? Do you think you should be kicked out of the industry when that date comes around?

Ageisim is every bit as indefensible as raceism or sexism. Shame on you!

I think we should keep idiots like you out of our industry.

You were right about one thing. Aging is a natural occurance. If you keep making statements like the above, you might not last long enough to find out what is like to be in that position.

For some that wants to rule the industry, you're extreamly shortsided.

I suppose I am an old fart. I must be old because as far as I know I am the only certified keypunch operator left in Ohio. I don't feel old but I do work with mostly younger techs and system specialists. There are even a couple of folks here older than me but not many. It's interesting to note that as a group, the 40-60 folks work more hours and call in sick less. As a group we also complete more hours of continuing education per FTE than the 20-39 group. Our incident turn-around-time is almost half that of the younger groups. Still I don't hold their youth against them. I figure by the time they are 50 they will know as much as I do. Probably more. And they will have fewer youthful distractions and be overall better employees than they are now. I believe it is my job to coach them along until they are ready to coach the next group of youngsters. Youngsters that probably share your sentiments and will want to put you out to pasture just because you are a little more cautions and conservative then they would like.

Remember, there is no good alternative to getting older.

Stew

Well, first of all I type at about 80wpm and compose code on the fly with few debugs.

When I am training a new person, I ususally have to slow my coding down so they can follow what is happening, and my debug is nearly as fast, so that is not an age restriction type of thing. I do have hearing aids in both ears (and they don't nearly replace good hearing) and I also wear glasses and have glaucoma, all of which are part of the aging processes coupled with diabetes. I am also beginning to have some carpel tunnel, a normal result of over 40 years of keyboarding. But I am still pretty astute, and a real DOS/Apple OS/CPM/RTOS/UNIX/LINUX coder. I think I now work in about 18 languages, and have experience on about 10 OS's, most of which are still in place. I also still own my Altair 8080 and have programs it can run.

GUI's are great for users, OK for some kinds of debug, but to get into the nitty gritty of coding, to understand real time issues, and to deal with some forms of latency, you need far greater skills than you can master in a GUI environment. You also need to know what all those bits mean. I have written assemblers (not assembly code, but the code that understands assembly code). And I can tell you that developing one good real time application with disk I/O and some DSP in it will show you where your weaknesses are.

However age and speed are not equivalent in coding until one reaches well into their 70's these days, and I know of a few in their 80's that aren't too bad. Most of us carry a PDA, a cellphone (or a combo device such as the treo), use Sat nav, deal with the internet for research and for sales of goods and services.

It's just not an age thing, but rather whether or not you do your homework. And whether or not you continue to polish your skills.

Regards,
Les H

Hello Robb,

Your observation is as acceptable as the 50-something executive at the C-level of your company who would like to outsource your job overseas. If you don't evaluate people for what they can add to your organization, you are missing much. Organizations are not machines! Successful companies balance the talents of their employees against the challenges facing the company. If you see someone just as an old geezer, you have yet to learn this lesson.

Steve

Obviously you think you will never age! As an older IT worker, I have kept up with the trends through certifications and due diligence and am probably quite comparable to you, in terms of skillset.

What you need are a few years of experience in the workplace gathering some info about how to get along with people. You obviously fall very short in your ideologies in that respect. Good Luck to you, Robb. You will need it.

Sincerely,

Curt

This has not been an isolated case!

Oh... and the 50 lines didn't work properly, the three lines do!

I can't believe that you would think that it is OKAY to Pass Judgement on someone because of their Age! But you are probably also the type of Person who judges people based on everything else too, so judging people for their age is no great stretch, hell, it doesn't even BOTHER you to think about judging someone like this. This is because you are not Old enough or Wise enough to UNDERSTAND LIFE, much less unstand the Value of an older person's wisdom and EXPERIENCE! Moron! Your the type of person who when they get Old gets the Shit beat out of them by Young People mugging them. Just remember Karma is a Bittch, and those who Judge Shall be Judged.

I have to burst your illusion of an easy solution to this problem, in your intellectual laziness. I do agree that it is very frustrating to deal with people who do not 'get with the technology' and help things move on to the next level. I also agree that this is not about knowing DOS and other old skills, since every advance to the next stage often means the abandonment of precious skills learnt at the previous stage. How many of you out there have any knowledge of how to work stone for building, or how to make cloth by carding, spinning and weaving? At one time your life would have suffered without those skills, but now its irrelevant. If someone wants to argue against ageism, please don't use the example of DOS!

You are talking about donkeys, and how to discover and remove them. I am with you on that, there are people out there who are holding the industry back. But how to find a donkey? I looked too, hoping for some quick and simple litmus test. Maybe its gender? Nope, makes no difference. Maybe its race? Again, no difference. Maybe its age? No difference again, but have to refine your instruments.

Older people can give an impression of being a obstacle - but thats because they tend to be in the positions of authority, do to natural progression in time. Its not old people per se, that are the blockage in this case, its the management role. Managers (of any age) will often be a blockage, for reasons which are outside the scope of this discussion. So that factor should be removed from this analysis so that we don't mistakenly attribute it to old age.

Again, I suggest that its not about old people struggling to keep up with change, I live on change, and I'm over 50. My children say how glad they are to get my cast-off equipment because it's leading edge (I guess I'm only satisfied with the bleeding edge).

I think this is about having a love for the technology. If the technology is what really excites you, then you'll keep pushing it forward till the passion has gone (and you leave it), or till you die. And this is where you meet the real 'racial divide'. If a really keen golfer meets another highly skilled golfer, do they quickly start to form a rapport? Do they care about the other persons gender, race or age? There are so few of the real experts/subject-lovers around that if you really were one yourself, you would value the opportunity to deal with another technical expert when it became available, and would not care about age (or gender or race or whatever).

The closer you get to the machines, the more you become like them, and you know, the machines don't care what their administrators or programers look like, they just want the right answer. Your desire for a quick and easy answer based on external appearances, without looking to the underlying structure and delivered function, is actually one of the traits of a donkey. So you are either guilty of this sloppy thinking yourself, or acting as devil's advocate for the sake of provoking a discussion.

Robb06 - You must be very young to think that all people have the same learning capacity at the same age and to assume that no one can keep up after 40! I'm a "wrinkly" of 47 just started a new senior technical IT role having worked in the industry since DOS days. Luckily my employers aren't as blinkered as you and I was given the job in preference to many younger applicants. I'm also a woman - expect you have equally biased views on that too!! What do you expect to happen to you once you're past 40?

I have to state up front that I am over 50. Having said that, I
have held my own technologically at technology forums around
the mobile industry and web-media (that is pretty recent stuff).

Certainly, a young hotshot with knowledge of the latest in
technology and troubleshooting beats an old fart clinging to
yesterdays technologies and paradigms.

But a company would be better employing a hot-shot older
person with current knowledge and thinking, and a depth of
troubleshooting experience, than a self-opinionated 20-
something who has not yet learned what he or she does not
know.

As a performance consultant, one of the disadvantages I see
with younger workers is an inability to formulate an extended
train of thought (essential for complex technological designs,
solutions and troubleshooting), a lack of sensitivity to user
needs (which after all is what much of IT is about), and an
inability to explain a problem or technique in a way that can be
readiliy understood. And after all, half of IT work is
communicating with users.

Having said all that, one's 20's are often the age when a person
does some of the best and most creative work.

But it seems like robb06 is advocating that technology careers
be terminated at age 30. Hmm - have you seen "Logan's Run"?

Be careful what you wish for. Your wish may come true.

The nature of your comment says volumes about your maturity. I am finding that emotional maturity is a hot commodity and that the youth(early 20s) are greatly lacking it at present. I don't know if I would want to work for a company that rejected maturity so readily. I would think that this would be a bad business practice and I would question the solvency of such a company's future. I haven't found a 20something that had my work ethics. Most youth have an entitlement mentality and ask for more than they produce, while the 'wrinkled folk' continue to work circles around the young. If someone is hanging on to the 'glory days of DOS' they need to let go and move on, but I think you may have had a few isolated examples that have tainted your view of the 'aged'.

I hope that at 42 when I graduate from college I can offer the latest tech savvy with an old school work ethic. I can appreciate your sentiment and will guard against such proclivities myself, so thank you for bringing this to my attention.

If we old farts all left the industry it would be great, I could spend more time on the beach. My experience shows that an over 40 yeear old is more likely to turn up on a Monday morning, takes less sick time and has a wealth of experience to offer. They cost a little more but hey, what's money to an industry like ours?

If the wet behind the ears kids wnat to take on the responsibility of maintaining our economy and support the middle aged on benefit I'm all for it.

I could spend more time writing articles, building musical instruments and trading on Ebay, all of which pay better than my day job!!

Old IT guy stuck in past ways .

V

Young buck with fresh views and ways to get things done.

What do you think IT is then?