Ageism? Good Idea?

Is there any other kind?

Did you get your screen clean? I thought it was pretty funny, actually. And I really needed a good laugh. Thanx ever so much.

No moors or limitions to deal with. It's all a celebration of the Circle of Life.

who doesn't want to learn and/or think they know it all already.

that their gf was frigid came from? Doesn't seem very fair. Wish Males came with product manuals. Might make them easier to understand.

Women are master Multi-taskers. Hmmm... Maybe our salary compensation should be based on tasks completed. Might actually get us up to par on the payscale.

hmmm you say you didn't say it and cannot prove it, yet it is posted for all to see with your handle attached to it. Can you see the hole in your logic or do you need it highlighted in a different color? LOL

By the way, your wife alread knows.

I was taught from a very young age, you leave your ego at the door when you go to work, just like you leave your personal problems and issues. Doesn't seem like that's adhered to much anymore.

I think anyone involved in IT today MUST be flexible. It is an unwritten requirement and must be so, since IT changes on a daily basis.

I'm not a Leader - unless I have to be. i'm not a follower when I believe something to be wrong, so I have a tendency to take the knocks in the chin for being neither/nor. Guess that's why i'm a political fence sitter and not affiliated with any political party. Does that make me more part of the problem than the solution?

How could they not know that?

Now you're trying to tell me what my motivations are? Get a clue.

1. If they're not going to engage in dialog, you aren't going to help things by shouting into the whirlwind either.

2. If you DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF USELESS POSTS by posting redundantly in answer to useless posts, you only make it far more difficult for others to determine FOR THEMSELVES whether these other posts are useless (let others for their own opinions for a change) and increase the size of the pile of drek they have to wade through to find the occasional bit of wheat in the chaff.

3. I have received absurd amounts of subscribed-discussion notifications in my email inbox telling me that you've posted "assumes facts not in evidence" and other carpetbombing post titles, which gets old REALLY FAST.

4. Ignoring common courtesies of netiquette to engage in this spamlike behavior is just rude and thoroughly counterproductive.

5. I'm trying to tell you to stop dragging the quality of TR down the toilet. Nothing more, nothing less. You seem intent to be a negative influence on the quality of TR discussions, though, possibly out of some pitiful attempt to increase your post-count.

Are [b]you[/b] trying to [b]drive reasonable people away[/b] from TR?

That's hilarious. You refuse to lend currency to reasonable speculation about why you're being a inconsiderate asshole?!

Being in my early forties, I was brought up with the proper ethics to think about getting the job done right, with the proper experience in the proper place. It seems to me Robb is talking out of is @$$. Thanks to Windows, DOS is still alive and well. Thanks to experience, people my age and well into their fifties are getting positions which call on their vast experience and those same people are the first ones to be called to try out the new technology.

So.....Do I consider Robb and his extremely limited ideals about age and experience for any projects that I have that would require his level of experience?........Hell no.

wpwalsh8@aol.com

Ageism is alive and well in every area of employment. I am an experienced marketing/IT consultant who has worked in Government and some very well-known organisations. I have now been job hunting for more than 2 years and I either get no response or, even worse, am told I am "too qualified".
In Australia it's illegal to ask about age - but if you're truthful in your CV, that's pretty easy to work out. It's been suggested that I "dumb it down" - but that's not going to help me find what I want.
I have been working with IT for more than 10 years and, would you believe, even then it was said that no-one over 40 could understand the new technology. The more things change .....

I agree with you.
The older you get the less your chances of getting a job offer. Which is why I now understand why most IT pros don't move much. Get the top post where you are and don't try to venture into the market.This is totally unfair of course but most of the times we are just forced to live with it. Which is why I suppose most IT pros move to other fields as they mature. A real loss to the IT field. In Finance or banking for instance, the older you are the more attractive on the job market.

I'm 56 years old, and didn't get into IT until 10 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, I think Robb is somewhat short-sighted. It is enthusiasm that promotes ability, NOT age. We are'nt all brain-dead at 35. It may be interesting to know how old Robb is. How long does he feel he has as a useful IT employee?

DanG

Speaking as a person who was put in a supervisory position and hated every minute of it, I am back in the trenches - although in a Job Title. What I'm doing now isn't much different that what I did 14 years ago when I started. The only acceptions being I no longer print, nor do I do any work on a mainframe. Even though our Applications have gone from being Mainframe based, to being server based to being Web based, the functionality of the applications hasn't changed - I still provide the support for the applications.

Out of all the topics and threads that I've read through the years, ChrisTech's comments on this topic was the most dimwitted, non-educated single minded babble that unfortunately I have ever read.
With that type of attitude, I wouldn't hire you or even let you clean my screen. Lucky that I can't reach through the Cat5 wire.
God how I wish I could be there when he turns 40.
Who wants to take a bet by that time he won't even be in I.T.
I have to stop typing, because the more I think about this the more angry I become.

I'm one of the oldies u r talking about. My experience currently is that we have to write log on scripts and yes they use old DOS commands. Any Unix software solution, including Linux, is similar to DOS commands and just makes life easier. Having worked 20 years in the industry, yes things have changed, but the basic theories of how computers work has not. Try explaining to a non-IT person the comparison between a PC and a mainframe and the theory is the same, the mainframe is just bigger. If anything, things have become easier, you probably do not have to know how to program in COBAL or hexidecimal like on an IBM mainframe. Just some ideas for thought.

As a member of this rapidly approaching issue, I went back to school after a major RIF n industry death (01) and am now trying to return to the work arena and i find that this type of thought is not good. A younger age may not mean a person has a clue about what they are doing or for that matter a does a certification mean you know anything other than the fact you know how to test and pass these tests. Age in the IT field should nto be a factor when it comes to doing a job only that the person can do the job. I do try very hard to keep up with all the new technologies and yes there are places where DOS has a place.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in..

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in..

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in.

try adding some insight

Now you're [b]definitely[/b] showing your age! Welcome aboard.

I still use VisiCalc & WordStar, on a Tandy 4-P, at home; they may be old, but it's hard to beat their speed when running under CP/M, TRS-DOS, LSI-DOS or even MS-DOS.

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in.

I'm joining in.

I can see you fit right in here with the whole sick crew.

You do remember your youth, don't you?

The time when we were omnipotent, omniscient, & immortal?

Welcome aboard.

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read the post that I pointed him to.

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is that your spam is annoying people who wish to have meaningful discussions on a variation of topics without having to sort through two dozen or more posts which, by my own research I discovered, you had to manually and knowingly alter each one to make it unique in order to post it even tho the topical content was pointed to the same information.

I find it kind of comical, but the fact is that even after a dozen or so, I got bored with it.

And I see what apotheon is saying. If your settings are configured a certain way, you're going to get massive amounts of spam from your (and my testing) posts in your email.

People come here to talk about things, share information, share differences and similarities, and I would think try to draw a bit more back from it than they came in here with...not sort through spam.

Anyways...maybe I've spoken out of turn.

But, I felt I had to add my bit of opinion to the mix.

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Hmmm.

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apotheon's not going to be happy with having to deal with the volume of e-mail messages that these posts will generate as a result of his being subscribed to this discussion.

the old people have that same young heart. You are correct though that it takes a good mix of people, personalities, and skills to build something positive.

Ohh, that's funny! Whee!

Yes, jck, that's pretty much what I was aiming at. Poor ol' deepsand doesn't seem to understand that he's being [b]counterproductive[/b] and making a bad situation [b]far, far worse[/b] than it would have been if he left it alone. I keep trying to educate him on the matter, but he keeps on carpetbombing discussion threads.

Of course, if all he's really trying to accomplish is a high post-count, and doesn't give a hot damn whether he drags TR discussions into the trash heap, I guess we could call this a successful campaign despite its complete lack of taste.

You bet you I would hire a qualified 55 year old...or older!! Anyone that I can hire that is older then me would be a good thing...I am getting a little tired of being the old lady around here! I am going on 53 and I don't think that I am too wrinkled...I drive a "sporty" car but not a sports car and I wouldn't drive a Volvo if they gave it to me...

As for DOS...give it a chance, you'd be surprised how valuable it can be and as for "struggling" to keep up with changes, life is nothing BUT changes so you get used to it by the time you get to be and "old geek".

Besides come to think of it, I didn't even get into this field until I was in my 40's!

Even the young get old eventually.....

In the old days, some very smart people entered the IT field.

Nowadays, because of agism, because weak managers hire those who are "no threat", after 10 to 20 years a person faces an assumption of obsolecense.

What very smart person would try to make a career in a field like this? It would kind of be proof they are dumb.

Instead the very smart now enter engineering, sales, accounting, etc.

I don't think age is determining factor of anyones abilities. Some guys, like old wine, improve with age.
Lets face it we will soon be old too and I don't we will feel its fair for anyone to refer to us as old and slow

Others, old well before their time.

1) Those to whom I replied, with what you label spam, were carefully selected, based on the following criteria:
..a) They entered the Discussion [b]after[/b] Robb had revealed his true nature; and,
..b) They showed [b]no[/b] evidence of having engaged in the ongoing sub-threads.

In short, these were people who, by every appearance, were merely venting, and some in none too civil a manner.

2) My reply was deliberately crafted so as to:
..a) Advise them of Robb's true nature; and,
..b) Do so in a manner that was most time efficient for me.

To expect that I should have crafted personalized replies, when a standard one would suffice, is not reasonable.

3) As for apotheon's conjecture that I was motived by nothing more than raising my Activity Rating, I categorically deny such. It should be noted that a mere volume of posts is [b]not[/b] sufficient for raising said measure.

Robb, I rather refer to what you started with this topic as "Active Dialog!" Too bad you got abused.

Age has nothing to do with hiring practices in any industry, and if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Regards:
Educated, experienced, 54, and out of work.

Robb
For one it is disgusting, discrimination based upon your thought that you might know something about anyone based on a demographic. I'm an older engineer been doing technology for over twenty years and I've forgotten more than you may ever learn. Additionally what makes you think you can keep up with those who have a lifetime?s knowledge about what it is you do for a living? Yes some older folks raise children and do things like have spouses and try to do more than just technology and you might have an advantage there. But let me tell you this, it is still a business and I wouldn't trust a multimillion dollar empire to a young fresh out of college geek who hasn't proved himself or herself yet. When you grow up a little perhaps you'll understand how incredibly stupid you sound making a generalization like this one. I wish you well, but whatever university put out a person like you they should be ashamed as well as your parents.

Robb,

Your age as well as your predjudice and ignorance, is blatant. DOS (Dirty Operating System, which you probably didn't know) was the baby steps of Microsoft. And it is not important to understand DOS unless you need to create your own OS. It could be that the "oldsters" find the 25 and under croud laughable since most of them cannot figure out how to operate their PCs without a mouse if something happens to their mouse. Thse are basics that you have obviously not yet learned.

As for struggling to keep up with change, I find that there is no difference between young and middle-aged; you may be getting someone young who knows the current technology well, but give them something new, and they're actually worse off than the 50+ crowd because they've always had everything they needed at their fingertips.

I work with one gentlman who is easily into his 60s and routinely makes his younger cohorts look the fool. Personally, I think that's simple to do since they don't have much real knowledge as it is. They know what they know, and that's it. Of course, "Bernie" doesn't purposely make them look like the idiots they are; he's just brilliant.

And that's where the true crux lies. It's not age, but your ability and willingness to learn. I worked with one guy who was easily 30 years my senior and who constantly insisted that he'd worked with COBOL for 23 years after I showed him where his logic had failed. I was teaching him ADSO. THAT, and not the age, is what you need to be wary of.

How old am I? 47, nearly 48. I've run through Microsoft OSs, Vax, Dec (no, they were NOT the same thing as Vax), Mainframe -- from OS II to the most current, linux, Sun Unix; I've written Basic (not, not VB -- the original), scripts for TSO, Roscoe, Wilbur (don't ask, awful OS), FTP when it was still CUTE FTP, SAS in a variety of its flavors from Basic SAS to AF to Integrated Technologies, and now I'm creating Web pages using the non-proprietary Java, JavaScript, and JSP (yes, I know ASP and .Net, but our stuff has to work on both Unix and MS). I've automated processes when the younger crowd didn't have the faintest idea how. Guess what? Niether did I, but I LEARNED.

And that's the key, isn't it? If you get someone straight out of college, yes, you may have someone who can learn, but look at their grades, not just the GPA. Personally, I did poorly (only Bs) in Analysis and Design and other such non-programming skills. But if you look at my programming grades, not only did I get As for ever single programming class, I got them while tutoring my much younger compatriots. I'm pretty sure they won't be among your backers to eliminate the "oldsters".

If you need someone who can learn, that's what you look for in the resume, not age. And where did you get the idea that "oldies stuggle to keep up with change"? The only people who have problems with change are those who have problems with change, young OR old. And since we're on the subject, little man, just how resilient are you? I've found that unless someone is truly chanllenged, you have no idea of their adaptability. I've always had something to prove, first because I originally had a tech-school certificate, not a diploma, and secondly because I am female. Or do you also think that women don't belong in IT?

Now, if you're going to continue your foolishness, consider this: it is against the law to discriminate against age. You'd better make sure that the "oldster" you have in front of you doesn't meet your needs and that the person you actually hire is much better qualified, or you'll pull your company into a lawsuit. Brilliance has no age limitations, and after reading your post, I would guess that niether does senility.

I am 57 years old and I thrive on change! I don't feel any different about change than I did when I was 19.
I am a PC Technician at a place I just started at about 7 months ago. I was doing network management at the last place which I was at for 10 years.
This may be true (they hate change)about some old farts but not this old fart!!

Wow, you have a lot to learn.

Your "old geezers" are not necessarily there to be tolerated by you. Just because they were writing COBOL code before you were toilet trained does not mean that they are not competitent at the IT tasks of today.

The "old geezers" understand the business, they understand the history, and they know how the world works.

The company does not leave anyone alone. In these times if a person is not pulling their weight they are gone no matter the age if a company can show cause.

Dress up your attitude and have some respect sonny.

Ignoring for the moment that what you suggest is illegal and could get your company in lots and lots of trouble, costing them thousands, even millions of dollars, older people have one thing, one very important thing, that younger people do not have and never will have?

EXPERIENCE!

Experience is an undervalued commodity. Older people should be 'mined' for this experience since it will help younger programmers avoid many of the mistakes the older programmers already made.

Unfortunately, too few companies take advantage of this experience and the result is that most programs are just as lousy today as they were 20 years ago.

Microsoft is about to celebrate 20 years of Windows. I do not see much to celebrate, programmers today make the same idiotic user interface mistakes that we older programmers (yes I am one of them) made 20 years ago.

Maybe we do have some trouble keeping up with new technology. Maybe some kid just out of college does know Jave or C# better. Maybe it might take me or other older programmer a few months to learn Java or C# or other new technology. Maybe?

However, it will take that new grad 5 to 10 years to really learn how to program. Learn how to build a user interface, how to create truely efficient and effective algorithyms. Experience takes YEARS to accumulate and you want to go and throw it all away.

20 years from now, when you are put out to pasture, you will know the frustration of watching some young know-it-all make the same stupid mistakes in programming that I made before you entered college, the same stupid mistakes that you are making right now.

Of course, for you and the next generation of programmers the mistakes are even stupider because you have the resources to avoid them but fail to use it.

Wisdom is a seed that grows with experience.
The only thing I could think after reading the CrisTech's post was I'll never hire a technician who states so clearly its unknowledge! How on evil he/she will be able to deal with windows deep service with no knowledge of DOS? Haw to chek deeply the disk surface? (for instance)
Youth is normally a life's period plenty of suficience, when the human never think to get old itself; so they do sentences that, for the times forecoming, will jeopardice their career.
Here in Spain we have a short story about a boy making a wood-cup for his parents, as he look the way they work with the grandfather.
Regards, soon or late we all get unhaired.

I'm a little late in this debate and I find it quite entertaining. Funny how people get on a band wagon when they think theyre agreeing with someone, only to blame that person when they look stupid once the truth is exposed.

I'm in the over 40 group and employed two months in this biz. I've worked full time and been a parent while obtaining my degree and holding a 4.0 gpa doing it. I may not be able to run as fast as I once could, but I can think as fast as any person I've met in this business.

Fortunately, I was hired by a 3o something manager with the confidence and wisdom to see the value in having an 'old fart' like me around.

Great topic Robb, keep those mental juices flowing...

It is for the young.......isn't it? you bet to bad you can't hire em while they are still teenagers and they know everything, ask some of these boot camp kids what HAL stands for and they schrug their shoulders or say it's the computer from 2001 a space odyssey.

It is for the young.......isn't it?

What do you think?

The problem with youth is they think everything is for them. With few exceptions they don't have the wisdom to learn from the past, maybe they have a clue as to what is going on in the present, but again, lack the wisdom to see the future consequences of their many times bad choices. Now, I've probably dated myself.

I'll be turning 50 this June. After some 20+ years in military, administrative support, customer service, and training positions, some involving above-average end-user computer experience, I got laid off in July '03 and spent 8 months looking for work without any luck. Since I had some 17 years of experience doing my own (and others) hardware and software upgrades as well as maintaining a simple wireless home network, I decided that maybe I could get my digital passion on paper. So I enrolled in a local tech college in the Tacoma, WA area and am in their computer networking technologies program.

So far I'm in my fourth out of six quarters and have maintained a 3.88 GPA and made the president's list two out of the three last quarters. I've successfully tested for my A+ and Network+ certifications and plan on getting MCSA and CCNA by the end of the year. I was also lucky enough to get work-study funds and am working in the school's IT department. Most of the younger guys haven't gotten any certifications and are barely making it through school.

I generally don't like comparing myself to other people because everyone is unique, but the younger guys in the classes I've been are virtually hopeless. Again, with very few exceptions, their negative academic attitudes, lack of self-discipline, sloppy personal and work habits, and lack of vision for future growth is appalling. These guys don't care if they get D's and F's most of the time and quite frankly seem proud of it. They would rather sit around playing computer games or listening to MP3s then listen to lectures or get their hands dirty fixing a computer or wiring and configuring LANs and WANs. Knowing what I know about them, I would never hire them.

I would also venture to say that I am in much better physical health than most of them too. I can maintain a heart rate of 170 bpm for 20 minutes at a time (I measure it on an elliptical trainer some 4 or 5 times a week) and wouldn't mind crawling around in a ceiling laying data cables for LANs if I had too. Of course I would like to sit on my backsides and be a network administrator but I am willing to start at the bottom and work my way up. Most of the younger guys would be lucky to even stay in the field.

There, I've gotten it off my chest I'm sure most of you younger guys and gals will say I'm the exception, not the rule. So be it. Maybe that is true. But don't make any snap judgments about me merely because I'm 50 when it comes to the hiring process. You will be passing up a gold mine. And besides, don't forget, age discrimination is illegal.

Although the points about technical knowledge and depth of understaning are valid, there is another aspect of accumulated experience that can have dramatic effect on work performance.

How do you relate to other people? Customers, coworkers, bosses, or domain experts. If you have been developing communication skills and emotional intelligence you can be vastly more effective in real world situations. You must be able to elicit and understand the requirements of both the individual users and the organization as a whole.

Remember, for most programming projects only %10 of the time is spent actually coding.

Coding for 16 years, and still getting better daily,
Albion Zeglin.

By the way, "choir" was a reference to Robb, who started this thread.

Hardly anyone read enough so as to find out his real age; they just reacted emotionally, and some in a manner quite uncivil.

The question is whether the person is up to the task at hand, not his age, just as the person's sex or skin color should not be a factor in qualifying the person or not for the job. Discrimination is not an option in today's world.
There will always be pro's and con's but the bottom line is: can the person get the work done in a timely manner?

Moved into IT at 49 6 years ago. Had 5 jobs since. Never been out of work. Sys admin,network design and install, desktop support,200-600 users, windows all versions and Novell 5-6.5
and yes I can use dos for scripting
Your mind is old (not enough salt and vinegar)and in a rut

Growing old is necessary, growing up aint

You are too young to know what a 55 year old can do? Why don't talk about something you know about like baby food kid? You probably work for someone older than you and they make more money.