Ageism? Good Idea?

Robb:

I agree that the younger are best suited to learn and maintain/support cutting edge technology. I would also add that the experienced (who WERE learning and supporting cutting edge tech. and have been through the grinder) are better suited to the managerial/project-ownership activity since they have seen (hopefully are better with) the soft-skills necessary to bind a project together and effectively facilitate the efforts of the younger. Together they make a good team.

A wise senior management will use the experienced soft-skills to guide and manage the hard-skills.

Think about it....

dbl, can't delete

Age is not in the "years" but between the "ears"
and about not being wet behind them?

The economics of the IT workplace works fairly well in the U.S.A.;freedom to hire " Old Geezers" are made every day by H.R. Managers across America based on ability, skills, knowledge and enthusiasm. These decisions,for the most part,do not encapsulate violating the Constitution, where discrimination is prohibited on Race,Religion,Disability, or Age.I severely doubt that " Old Geezers" would have trouble keeping up with youngsters as yourself,as you have yet to master the timeless eloquence of American History that is founded on the U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I believe you are somewhat out of place in any industry you might be employed, as you somehow believe that you are the decision maker, as to whom shall work, at what age, in any employment position !

If age is an obstacle to new learning... why is it that, at age 50, I am the one who updates my junior (in age, not job position) collegues of new innovations that I have discovered through self study, or perusing the net? They seem to have gone to, and completed school, then halted their education at that point, while I keep learning.

May 11-2005.

Response to the article on AGEISM:

Personally, I feel that discriminating willy-nilly against someone's age in the workplace is misguided, prejudiced and narrow-minded, for the following reasons.

* There are lots of Executives in the age bracket of 50 to 70 years in corporations, and government institutions. President Ronald Reagan, and Senior George Bush (former US president), were all in that category. And we have not seen any inability to make rational decisions at that level.

* Assuming that when a person reaches age 50 and above, he/she is less likely to adjust to change, or less likely to understand technical or technological matters is ludicrous. I challenge you to come up with evidence to support these claims!

* I am 55 years of age, and my mental faculties have not waned at all. In fact I am more in tune with the current trends internationally, scientific, global and political. I learned to operate my computer without a tutor. I also learned the nitty gritty about software, hardware, browsers, Url's and all those factors that help one to navigate the Web competently.

* I am fascinated with new technology, and cannot wait to see the new discoveries in Internet Browsers (for speed), & Internet Security Software that cannot be duplicated or breached, E-mail security, and Pop-up Blockers that truly work.

These are just some of the areas that I am concerned about. So my friend, your self-opinionated view of AGE and AGEISM is exactly what it is. PEJUDICED!

Mimbari.

If a self-professed IT worker doesn't know or care what DOS is, or the history of technology, they should either learn or be fired!

This list has already featured articles on using batch files to automate system maintenance. Batch files are DOS commands, so all of us should have a good understanding of this. And how many tasks are still best accomplished from a CLI? (nudge, nudge!)

If you don't know how or why things work then you won't be able to fix the problems.

Are you serious with this? Please tell us you have nothing to do with the hiring decisions at your company. I'm 30, so I'm smack in the middle I guess of your spectrum. This means I don't take as personal insults your words like "oldies" and "wrinkly", but reality is going to kick you in the teeth one day. If you hire based on age rather than qualifications and ability, you might get lucky some of the time, but the rest of the time your competition is going to get the better employee because you ignored the important things. I know a DJ who does an oldies radio show; he's 25. Not probably someone you'd hire as program director for a top 40 station. My father (who's in his 60's) could run Active Directory like a concert pianist if he so desired. As it is, though he has no IT background whatsoever and there's absolutely nothing about it in his job description as President and CEO, he can manage our business servers from anywhere in the world. Any day of the week I would hire the guy who wanted to stay cutting edge over the guy who is right now but has no ambition to stay there. No matter how old either one of them is. Think about what matters to your company and not what makes you feel like you're better than someone else.

You are the typical type of person that is what makes everything seem bad in our country. Your spew of garbage displays your age, disrepect for others, and just pure contempt for older people. I am 52 and have been in the field since 11/3/72.

Personally, I have forgotten more than you will probably ever know. Youth brings many positive attributes to the table but one VERY IMPORTANT attribute that most younger people, and especially you, don't have is wisdom.

Smarts without wisdom is useless. Like knowing when to talk or shut up. You could use a few lessons in listening and thinking before you open your mouth.

I would much rather have an older stable person that I can rely on than some younger person that is always looking for a new job or something much more exciting.

Perhaps we should not allow younger people to have important positions in any field until they are at least 40!

You may have experienced some bad situations with your older counterparts. I just wonder how much of it is because of your attitude and disdain for the older generation.

We can't be too dumb. DOS carried the weight for the personal computer for many years. Guess it's the old farts fault that we got to the moon, have nuclear fusion with cheaper energy, enjoy color TV, drive nice cars and fly in jets anywhere in the world. What has your generation done besides sit on it's butt, complain, watch TV, play video games, and ignored all teaching about tact and patience.

I feel sorry for anyone that works with you. Maybe when you are 40 companies will just put you out to pasture. Who knows, by then Soylent Green may be the wave of the future for feeding the world and you will help out mankind.

It's probably okay as long as you're not the old guy/gal being discriminated against. [wink]

What are you going to be doing at 55?

Robb - I suspect that you may change your tune once YOU reach 40! Some of your comments do show a lack of perception which many young people have: depth of experience in IT, and the business world in general can be invaluable in many areas of IT.

However, I agree that parts of IT are better suited to younger folks - coding for one, testing for another.

I suggest you modify your generalized statements and broaden your outlook. Or your attitude will come back and bite you.

I would seriously doubt your ability to consult anyone on anything given your obvious biased personality. I know a number of "oldies" in the IT business that are on top of the latest technologies, have razor sharp mental capacities and probably will forget more in their lifetimes than you will ever learn since you see no value in learning about the roots of your profession.

You, it would appear, are yet another of those "youngsters" that has no respect for age and the wisdom it brings nor present concern for your own fate when you become an "oldie". Assuming someone doesn't slap your silly self into last week first.

Lest you forget - it's the "oldies" that have provided you with this rich technological environment in which you, even considering your lack of common sense, probably make a good living.

You're right. I don't know you. But then I wouldn't want to either.

Signed - Not a consultant but somebody who does the actual work.

In this day and age I'm surprised anyone would even consider this for a number reasons:
1. Its illegal. Yes, we all no it still happens that doesn't make it OK.
2. Most of the "oldies" I know are quite technically competent and work very hard to stay in the forefront of technology.
3. Experience, as in "There is no substitute for". Many "oldies" have been there and done that so many times that it is second nature to them. Immediate decisions on the right course of action can save countless hours of effort.
4. Best Practice, most newbies or juniors spend more time trying to show others a "better way" that they forget that many standards and practices in the IT industry were born out necessity or trial by fire.
5. Quite a few "oldies" are now hiring managers or have trusted input into hiring and it wouldn't do much for the candidate to have your kind of attitude.
6. One day you will be the "oldie" that some young hotshot will be taking aim at. As the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around!".
7. See number 1.

What you propose is dangerous on many levels. The legal implications alone will have you searching the wanted ADs completing against the very population you advocate and the business suffering the consequences. Ever heard of the ADEA Act?

Today everyone has a right to something, and this kind of one sided, narrow minded thinking is not acceptable. The workers of today, young and old, bring different levels of energy to the table, making for a unique synergy in the workplace. Both go through a development phase, some take longer to acclimate than others and from my experience age has no barring. Both generations can be deadlock on what they "know".

I am 59 years old and have been in IT for over 30 years. I go all the way back to COBOL, FORTRAN, and UNIX. I have no problem keeping up. I am currently enrolled in an undergradute degree program in software engineering, and doing rather well in my studies. To conclede that all older geeks are ignorant or sticks-in-the-mud is extremely unfair to those of us who have kept up. My 20 year old daughters' boyfriend is in the same degree program as me and while he is very good at coding, I sense in him a certain inocence or lack of understanding about the true nature of IT. He has never known a time with no hackers or viruses as have I. You should learn to tap into the wisdom of your elders. Some of us are amazingly open-minded and up to date.

It appears that wisdom has no value in your world. How sad for you.

You're also ripe for a lawsuit with your attitude.

I probably fit your definition of "geezer", having taken early retirement in 1998. On the other hand, my IS degree was awarded June 2002 and the newest platform I'm programming for is the Palm (a real shift of mindset from desktops and servers).

I've worked on teams with people younger than my children - most recently developing a Web-based scheduling system for a military agency (VBScript, Javascript, IIS, SQL Server).

What things of value did I bring to the team?
1. Ability to take the long or wide view. A lot of my code that was created under "we gotta get this done tomorrow" constraints had "this should be done " comments. For the military project, is being implemented two years later in a rewrite that's taking longet and costing more than if it had been done that way initially. (My unofficial rule is one hour of missed coding = one week of rewrite - think about the number of dependencies that exist after a year.)

2. Knowledge of many technologies and business operations.
This provides me with a broad understanding of processes, which means I have the skills to ask the right questions when interviewing a subject matter expert and to do effective research (Internet or paper based).

3. Practice in meeting deadlines and completing paperwork.
I met all of my deadlines and helped other people on the team meet theirs.

Am I working on the military project now?
No. They thought they couldn't afford me last fall. The current version of the system was delivered early this year with obvious problems and they didn't provide fixes until two months after the due date.
I have gotten feelers from the new project manager. Will I go back with them? I'm not sure. I might not want to join a project run by young IT people when it's already three months behind schedule...

John

You will be old one day (although with your attitude that is questionable). It will happen sooner than you think! What will be your attitude then when some younger person questions your expertise, or your ability to learn? I hold a Ph.D. in Mathematics and a recent M.S. in Computer Science (neither one of which was from an online ?university?). I started my M.S. program at age 54 without an undergraduate degree in Comp. Sci., and I continually had the younger students asking for my help in the courses! I had no difficulty in completing all my work and even took the second semester of two courses without having had the first semester. I learned more than the younger students because my experience taught me what was important to study.

I have been in computers since 1965 (yes, 40 years; I started with an IBM 1620 - look it up in your history books!). During all my time in this industry I have learned many valuable lessons from older employees. Without these older employees? wisdom, you kids are doomed to ?reinvent the wheel?!

Your comments remind me of the story of a young bull and an old bull standing on a hill overlooking a pasture full of cows. The young bull says, ?Why don?t we run down there and get us a cow?? To which the old bull replies, ?Why don?t we walk down there and get them ALL!??
You need to study the wisdom of this!

Here I am 59 years old and I am on my third test towards my Microsoft Certified System Enginerring!Can you generalize and say that all oldies are not progressive enough to stay up-to-date and can not continue on their path in the computer world, expecially if they really enjoy keeping up with the expertise. Say! Like me?

By the way, that sounds a lot like a line from "Roadhouse" with Patrick Swayze, but the word is "elicit", to draw out, not "illicit", meaning unlawful.

I am gen X. Let's not start generalizing the other way around just to retaliate.

As a 51 year old, I do keep up. If we are so poor at it, please tell me why the younger generation keep making the same mistakes that we cracked decades ago. (Dec had a problem with the year 1978 because they coded a single year digit in octal, and buffer overflow exploits have been known for decades, yet every month I have to install patches to fix these).
There is a place for all hard working, methodical and bright people regardless of age. Certainly my clients prefer someone who can communicate with them in simple terms (comes with having done it for years) rather than a spotty youngster who tries to baffle them with Vogon.
Here in the UK (don't know if it is also true in IT) many employers are now actively seeking out and hiring older workers because they work harder and are more reliable.

...was the retort of the 60's... how far away are our "young" posters (IS/IT professionals) from that? "Instant Karma's gonna get you..."
do our younger IS/IT folks plan on new careers in a few years, or will they be "put out to pasture" regardless of their skills? And just what occupation do you plan on entering that will be immune from the same bias? ;)

I don't think age have anything to do when an individual well performs a job.

Any good IT professional knows it is necessary to keep up with technology, not just to be able to use it, but to eventually pass the knowledge to the new kids on the block.

After 12 years in the IT field, by personal experience, I feel I am now a lot better prepared than 6 or 8 years ago, started with DOS, UNIX, Novell, now deploying and administering Win 2003 and mainframe, Cisco, and the whole enchilada.

Just keep yourself open to technology and learning, the results are those of an always in-demand individual ready for whatever the IT challenge.

Salud!

Very interesting perspective...wrong...but interesting!

Someone who talks and acts like a dinosaur at fifty-something was a baby dinosaur at twenty-something. Not only does a twenty-something dinosaur lack vision and the capacity for wisdom, just like the fifty-something dinosaur, but he or she also lacks the experience and knowledge of the older worker. It's hard to see that this is somehow better.

Conversely, the older worker with the capacity for wisdom and growth has much to offer.

As others have said, you should aim to hire the best, at any age.

I believe that hiring decisions in IT are, for the most part, based on an obsession with short term costs. If a hiring manager can get a VB.NET tyro for 65-70k, why not? The old pro might cost over 100k. Unfortunately for the old pro, this short-sighted approach is always justifiable to management.

What a hiring manager loses when he uses the low-salary standard are the hidden benefits that a pro will bring to the job: reliability, mature work ethic, the ability to not panic when things go wrong, insight, the capacity to learn new things quickly ( he wouldn't be an old pro if he didn't have this knack ). The list varies by individual but in most cases, lack of these qualities will weed you out.

Proven staying power attests to a host of unmeasurables that short-sighted bottom line guys usually ignore.

Are you going to say the same thing about Doctors? Their field is changing just as rapidly as IT is. Would you not rather trust in someone that had years of experience behind them? I am 53 this month and I enjoy the change. I have been in IT now for 20 years and do not try to keep up with every new change. A person 20 years my younger could not do the same either. This is a specialized industry no different than the medical field is specialized. If I was a hiring manager, I would look past the age and look at what the person has to offer. Actually I find the younger hires do not bring as much to the table and their work ethics quite frankly are rather poor.

Experience comes from lessons learned.......

There is much to be said about growing up in the industry. Anyone who is 30+ sometimes has those doubts about whether they are indeed "aging on the vine" and then we remember - we understand technology and how technology is suppose to assist business in progressing - unlike the young bucks who want to implement technology which is "cool".

Any individual who is willing to grown with the industry deserves to participate in it going forward at 40, 50 or even 60. I personally have never interacted with an "aging" IT professional who was not current in technology through either experience or certifications.

You make a good point...current IT folk don't even know what it is...and that is the exact point...current, young IT folk are often products of anemic academic programs with no real understanding of Computer Science. Now folks...don't get angry...I know there are a lot of well trained individuals out there...but we all know some younger geek, fresh out of the local IT learning academy with an MCSE.....who thinks he's and engineer. Right. Oh..and for those who don't know dos...you probably have never written Windows scripts or ever even looked at UNIX, Linnix, etc...... when you grow up and want to come up to the big leagues...show us you can write a C-Shell script.....

Yup, I've met lots of folks who are stuck for an answer to hello -- and they were fresh out of college. Imagine that. After 37 years on the bleeding edge and teaching half the known world about the latest and greatest technology, I'll wave from my sports car as I drive by you on the internet.

/Bill

If you were one of us "old timers", you would know that DOS (all caps) is "Disk Operating System". DoS (lower case "O") is "Denial of Service".

If you are a hiring manager, I have definite concerns for your unit and for your company. What you are blatantly admitting is age discrimination, which is grounds for litigation the likes of which you probably haven't encountered in what may be a brief career.

On another note, placing individuals in what could be termed as cultural stereotypes is definitely not an advantage to your company or to you. All of the negatives that you mention as stereotypical of the aged (whether true or not is a whole other issue), can be countered by equally stereotypical claims of the young. Work-ethic, dedication, loyalty, etc are just a few that could be mentioned.

All of these attributes have NOTHING to do with the number of revolutions around the sun a person has witnessed. Hire the best you can afford based on a person-by-person evaluation against the REQUIREMENTS for the job. Age just isn't a requirement from an IT perspective.

Experience is the epitome of our future....knowing where we have been increases our chances of succeeding on the path to where we are going.

Whoa, I'm a 49 year old dba who has been in this business for over 12 years, and I can tell you that age is not a barrier...'struggle to keep up'? Are you kidding me?, it's not the older guys who struggle to keep up, we've been learning new technologies, interfaces etc. for years...what would these youngsters do if their mouse was taken away from them? If they didn't have intelli-sense and other drag and drop tools? And, oh, by the way, who do you think created all these visual programming tools? That's right, old guys...we had to make it easier for these whippersnappers to get anything done. Please, give me the experienced guy over the young 'hot-shot' any day....As a matter of fact, if it weren't for us 'old guys' showing them the way, they'd be lost....and would wash out of the business in no time...

I'm 55. I've been working in IT since I was 21. Including 8 years as a Consultant in Software Services at the pioneer of networking, DEC.

At this point in my career I don't want to keep Cisco CLI commands in my head. It's inappropriate. I've graduated. I design the networks you support, for multi-sited multinational companies.

Ask yourself. You're a CEO. Your IT department has recommended an enormous expansion, costing several million. You begin to interview vendors.

One vendor rep comes in, wet behind the ears, you know he's listening to 50 Cent and Nelly in his car, knows some technical stuff, and tells you ALL about it.

Another vendor rep comes in, some grey hair, confident, doesn't talk every possible second. Has seen your type of business before, and has large-company, million dollar deals under his belt.

Who you gonna trust?

for those who have experienced it over time. IT is change.

I've got a group of people under me between the ages
of 25 and 60. The younger ones are not good
employees. They are immature. They are late to work
all the time and frequently sick. They don't understand
the importance of the bigger picture. Personally, I prefer
to hire mature employees. Skills can be trained.
Attitude, no so much.

Most new IT types think they don't need DOS skills until they work with unix or linux or have to fix an old nt box....

Feel free to hire the young ones, they work cheaper, quit more quickly and don't have the depth and breadth of knowledge an experienced IT worker does.

Hey, while your at it, why don't you just hire Indians, they will work for pennies on the dollar and thank you for it.

I can't use the words I want to use, but you and your ideas are arrogant, hurtful and incredibly stupid.

And one more thing, if someone finds out you are discriminating on the basis of age, my guess is that after the lawsuit is over, you will be broke, or your company will be broke and the 50+ tech that sued you will be a millionaire and won't have to work for a pinhead like you!!!!!!

...is so blatantly age-phobic and discriminatory that it has to be
either a joke or deliberate "trolling" designed to attract attention
and elicit a lot of fiery emotional responses. I'll resist the
temptation to rise to the bait, and encourage others --- both
the geezers and the whippersnappers --- to do the same...

Agreed. The main reason I usually avoid discussion boards is born out in the replies above. Too often it seems that some feel the liberty of "anonymity" to ignore conventions of civil discussion. Others simply take themselves too seriously.
If Robb had come out on the board as they suggest it would have been just another boring topic. Stirring up feelings on all sides will tend to produce something more like honest responses. Perhaps it is the honesty that was provoked that some find offensive. Gee, that is too bad. Yawn.

Yes, age discrimination is common in the IT industry. My employer has been (is?) very good at dumping the >55 assets and dodging the resultant law suits for years. Flocks of lawyers are more cost effective. Who would have believed That?

Only a manager with his/her head up his/her arse would discount older workers. Who do you think invented all this hi tech stuff. I have been working on computers sice 1971 and have seen and fixed more problems in that 35 years than any young geek has ever seen. And, I come to work everyday, don't do drugs and I am not looking at zooming the chick in the next cube. As far as keeping up I run Solaris 10 at home along with every version of windows there is. And what are you gui geeks going to do when you only have a command line interface to get your server back on line?

You would be suprised at how many 55 year olds know the new stuff. Yes we might know dos and windows 3.1 but a lot of us have kept up with the times and know the new os' as well as the new programing. IT is not just for youg geeks, us old geeks are just as good. As for driving a sports car I rather drive a 4x4 in the mud and have fun, we have a life do you?

Only a conceited, wet behind the ears, "know it all" would ask such an asinine question. It is not a matter of age, it is a matter of knowledge and ability to adapt. I'm 44, podcasting, been doing Linux, LAMP, Mambo and other stuff probably while you were still in kindergarten. Mabye we should ignore Codd as well (or do you even know or care who he is.....)

What a lamer...

Geez

I'm glad someone in this conversation has some appreciation for us old folks. I am a 55 year female and spent 20 years as a Cobol programmer. I am now back in college getting a degree in Computer Technology just so I can handle the next generation. You can teach an old dog new tricks you know, and once they learn them they can put a whole new spin on the outcome.

I know quite a few 'Older Guys' that are in the IT Business - and alot of them are some of the Smartest SOB's around - Are you so prude to think that just because you get older you can't do a job??? - What happens when you get to that age? What do you plan on doing? Sure, there are those out there that do not handle change well, or keep up as well as some of the younger crowd would like, but instead of crying about it all, why don't you try teaching them? Make them understand that the old is the old, it's time to move forward - I work in an industry when old habits die hard - I came in with new ideas and a brighter imagination and was part of a team to help the 'Older' Crowd start embrassing change and moving into new directions. Read the Book - Who Moved My Cheese - Stop your whining and get back to work.....

As an old geezer, I enjoy IT and the challenges. I'm working on a CCNA and plan to continue towards a CCNP. I've studied Solaris, gotten an MCSE in Win NT, studied Win2000/2003 and XP. I've also learned a lot from both younger and older IT people. And I like using my Macs, Sun workstation, Linux workstation, and WXP laptop at home.
I know I wouldn't fit in certain shops and can appreciate the feelings some have about having an older person hanging around. But as someone who enjoys the field and especially networking, I am insulted to think I would hinder an IT shop.
BTW, I have Win 3.1 on an old laptop that I keep my version of the Great American Novel on.

I totally agree with you. Life time experience and know-how is way ahead of learning on the go from books and diploma.

Experience is part of life, you should try to gain as much knowledge as you can from these people. This is what you call WORK EXPERIENCE and it's worth a lot of diplomas.

Very good example, I, myself would choose a doctor with experience. This says it ALL.

Just because I'm over 55 doesn't mean I can't learn. I've been in the business for twenty years and I learn something almost every day and many three or four times a day.

Computers are still just a bunch of electrical switches and most problems are still caused by the users. Age and experience sometimes helps when trying to understand people so that we can identify the problem thaat needs fixing. Just the other day, I took a job away from two much younger competitors because I knew what the customer meant when they asked me if I could fix their modem (actually PC). Listening is the key to good customer support and I've found that older people are usually better listeners than youngster.

By the way, knowing DOS does help when using the XP repair console. Also I still write back-up routines using Xcopy.

Granted this topic started by Robb was his misguided attempt to generate controversy (CNN Crossfire or Fox's Hannity & Colmes), it's had the net effect of bringing out the negative biases in a lot of you.

I read through the thread noting that the young people are criticizing the old for being change-averse and the old people criticizing the young people for rushing too quickly to change and not respecting the lessons of the past.

In truth, the most value is derived from a broad cross-section of experience. Experience doesn't always come with age. Some people learn from every situation they experience and others tend to pick and choose the situations from which they'll learn.

No one should have their value to a corporation, society, or even a single project diminished based on their age, gender, ethnicity, or any other factor. As long as someone has the attitude to learn and willingness to try new things (even if the new thing is learning an old way of performing a task), that person is valuable to ongoing success.

When I've interviewed people for a job, I've always viewed the requirements as a wish list such that if I ever found someone with all those skills, we likely couldn't afford them anyway. Rather, I'm looking for someone who possesses some of those requirements and gives me the feeling that they're hungry to pick up the rest of the skills required. That's someone I want to be a part of my groups and I want their attitude to be infectious and to contaminate the rest of the team (some of whom may have grown satisfied with the status quo).

In closing, please don't diminish your perception of someone's value based on the number of birthday's they've celebrated (or lack of same). Your value to progress is best measured by your attitude towards progress. Do you embrace it or fear it? Only the individual can truly answer that of themselves.

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to contribute to this thread.

You are expressing essentially the same type of strange attitude as Adam. Discrimination is discrimination. Age, race, sex all the same. The only valid consideration is, "Can this person do the job."

Yes, I would hire an older person. As a 62 year old Systems Technician, my cognitive functioning has not deteriated with age. I started out in the vacuum tube communication generation and entered into computer systems in 1978 using DOS. I have kept up with all the changes and have done better than co-workers half my age. At age 60 (2003) I received a Network Technology degree (GPA 3.96/4.0) and was first in my class. At age 62 (2005), I earned my BS degree Summa Cum Laude (GPA 3.92/4.0). Don't write us old folks off yet.

How 'bout this? Let's give robb a dos workstation and a network card and see if he can even get the card to work, never mind connect to the network. When was the last time you had to assign an interrupt, or edit a net.config file, Robb? What are the seven layers of the OSI model, and what do they do? Please,we 'old guys' made it possible for jerks like you to even work in this field...Idiot. Most of us 'old guys' have forgotten more than you'll ever know...and, believe it or not, knowledge of DOS is still very much relevant, especially as a network admin...

I am 55 years old and stay well on top of IT issues. I find that the young generation lacks any depth of knowledge and most have certifications that are of little value. I forgot about DOS many years ago.

I work for a company that insists everyone retires at 60. That to me is the greatest waste of resource ever. Age is not an indication of ability either way. Experience is probably the greatest asset that any support technician can offer. When you call a support desk, do you want someone who can answer your query immediately or to be passed around a whole team of people before you get an answer. I have recently turned 40 and I can run rings around most twenty somethings.

Hmmmm,
That's like saying "Why do we need to know math when we have calculators". Don't forget who built the business you so glibly want to chase us out of Bob.

Problems often have multiple layers, and experience combined with patience and the ability to listen to everyone involved is the key to working through the maze.

Occasionally you see that in a young person, more often in an older person. But age is not an identifying factor - you have to evaluate the individual.

You don't use unix? You don't use a command prompt under a windows gui to see and make changes to the system and diagnose problems? You don't use any kind of scripting? no-one may give a toss about DOS anymore; but knowing how to use it doesn't make you a bad person, nor a dinasour. The first machine I programed at school was by using a binary punch card! I may be 45 but I'm no fool! My cells are still intact and my mind is sharp. The young so often make the mistake of believing they are the only ones that know anything, therefore they miss the opportunities of making use of the vast pool of experience that may be available to them in the workplace. Shame on you for thinking anyone over the age of 55 mentally retarded!

Part of the problem that I have with your basic premise is that it shows that you can look beyond your own prejudices to make the best call in any decision.

Your opinionated approach would make me wonder how flexible you are in dealing with change. I would suspect that some of us who have been through a half dozen changes in coding paradigms, more operating systems that you can shake a stick at and more changes of the underlying technology than you can imagine are much more flexible in picking up on the new than you. We tend to be a little more judgmental about those changes because we have seen too many of them come and go and want to insure that the approach we take has some ability to stand a test of time.

BTW: those people who talk about DOS can probably do a pretty good job of working with the command line on a Microsoft server. Some things don't run from the GUI.

One mans opinion.

I have recently left the Army. It decided, like you, that it is no longer a place for "old people" and the youth, with all their years of life and vitality ahead of them (until they reach 40 of course) should spearhead the lead for a new, improved force. It didn't.

All the experienced soldiers left. Very few people understood the problems to be faced and noone was able to pass on the experience they gained throughout their lives as soldiers. And they were thrown by the wayside and forgotten about.

Luckily, you are not in the position to make what you suggest, law. The industry relies on the experience of the older pros to help identify past problems and find solutions for future ones.

As for the DOS comments. The overall structure of DOS has not changed. It has been improved upon constantly in newer and more advanced applications and operating systems. People that understand DOS, understand their computers and if 90% of current IT folk don't know what it is, then they should take up road sweeping, because I would never call any one of those 90% professional people. It may now be called the "command line" but the differences are mainly cosmetic.

You call yourself a "consultant" but I feel that your views on IT and the people working in it preclude you from working with people at all.

By the way, I'm only 34.

Old is a state of mind, not a state of body, so I would disagree with your assertion that the mind becomes more rigid with age. SOME people learn to fear more as they experience more, so their range of comfort shrinks. Also, I don't agree that youngsters can outperform 'oldsters' on a line by line basis. In the 20 or so years I wrote code, I think I only got better (and faster) as I got more experience. The larger the base of experience you have, the fewer mistakes you make and the larger the bag of tricks you have, so you can determine faster, the best solution to a problem. The trick is to not let yourself be boxed in by your experience, ie, maintain a flexible approach to any problem. People are individuals, and as such, when we make assumptions about them based on classifying them through some general, external characteristic, we are bound to make mistakes.

Maybe you need to look at the individual rather than the age. If you saw me on the street, you would not realize I am closer to 50 than 40, but lately this ?old? thing is really getting my back up.

My son graduated from college with his Windows 2000 certs and CCNA, but he would struggle to do my job. Experience is one reason, but also because the company that I work for has many dinosaurs, equipment dinosaurs that is. To be quite honest, some companies are still using old stuff like Windows 3, NT, DOS, BBS, token ring and Modem pools? At our company, we have the new stuff as well, but sometimes the life span for equipment is long. Not every company can afford to be on the bleeding edge.

One of the reasons that I am in this profession is because of the change. I can honestly say my job is never boring; I love to learn new things and ?beat? the machine.

What is the old expression ?You are only as old as you feel?? If that is the case, I will be doing this until I am 70!

Youth allows you to do things fast.
Age allows you to do things right.

On DOS:
I.T. Folks should know about DOS, it's how Batch files got introduced to most none techs at the time. Even in windows of today I know IT techs (yes they are old by your standard of 40), that use Batch files to automate jobs, that others write applications for. Why spend $300-$3000 dollars when the ability is already there? We sit back and laugh, at the time and money the young takes in 'developing' their application, we did/do with a few short commands.
Back in the old days :) I knew people who wrote whole applications based on Batch files and most of those applications didn't have the security problem of today?s programs and still wouldn't.

On Ageism in general:
If I get to the point where I can't "keep up" or ?learn new tricks?, I should step down. But, so far I haven't found a younger person that could keep up with me or knows as many ?tricks?.
?.
"I can't work the weekend, I need my days off..."

"I'll have to contact the companies support line and see if their tech can give me some insight into the problem?s solution...."

"Why do I have to do it, Bob's got more experience."

Any of those sound familiar? If I got a $100 dollars for every time I solved a someone else's problem, and/or put in the time necessary to ensure that preventative maintenance is done right and not just trust automation and software policies (within the last ten years), I could have retired 10 years ago.

Over my years in the industry I've noted one major trait to the various age groupings - there is no single trait. People are individuals. You get good and bad in every demographic. I've seen whiz bang geeks fresh out of school that had no workplace or social skills and dinosaurs with decades of experience that had no clue about basic database design. I've had the pleasure (and displeasure) of hiring new employees in the past and my experience has shown that of the two major qualifications for a position (skills and sociability/work ethic), the latter seems to make the most difference. Most people can learn the physical and mental requirements for a position if they're intelligent and good communicators. The opposite types are hopeless and are way too abundant in all age groups.

Excellent response!

Often those with "Classroom" experience are unable to resolve problems in the "Field", because they've never been exposed to the problem.

Those of us with years of "Field" experience can draw from a multitude of "hands on" experiences.

Just because we did our first network in Windows 3.11 , Banyard Vines, or Lantastic doesn't mean we don't understand Windows 2003.

I started this job as a second career after retiring from the first career.

I have worked here since 2002.

Art Linkletter may be dead, but he was right. Kids say the darned things!

I'm a 50 year old Oracle former database administrator/ architect. Lots of rich experience on my resume!

I began working in the technology arena in 1978. I was part of the eary days of Compaq and others. Worked elbow to elbow with Mr. Gates while I wrote the first DOS manual.

Your assessment is falacious. People don't want short-sighted, narrow-minded workers at any age. I haven't heard anyone prattle about DOS in nearly 15 years. The truth about older workers is that they usually get paid more. A lot of enterprises are more concerned about selling out corporate secrets offshore than in capitalizing on 'older worker' skill sets. After H1b workers and outsourcing murdered IT in America - I readjusted and found two new careers: Legislation compliance (i.e. HIPPA, Sarbanes, etc) and my own eCommerce business. One is great short term. The other will go "the distance".

The consequence of age? Better opportunities for those with vision! Recall how the Chinese define risk? Opportunity that rides on a dangerous wind. Old geek? Rubbish!

Funny how the most intolerant people require the most tolerance from those around them.

Rob's comments help me to understand how come some (not all) of these young IT screw so many things up. Some old geezer should put Rob out of his misery.

Well as someone who is 55+ and has worked in various computer support areas since the 1980s I think you are very short sighted...

Over the last decade I have seen many young men hired by our IT group, and invariably they sooner or later turn to me for advice and help... Whenever they get stuck, they tell the users to call me instead of them...

DOS is still used by some corporate apps and if you do NOT know anything about it, you cannot hope to solve those problems... Even Windows XP still has a DOS reality when problems arise...

We all do have to keep up with new technology, and it is a struggle, but many years of experience mean that solving real world problems can happen much faster... Also, I am experienced enough to know when one should pick up the phone and call the manufacturer instead of feeling a loss of face to have to do that...

When I was younger, older gits picked what I watched on TV, told me to turn the music down, that my cars and bikes were too fast, and that I would need patience to someday become older, wiser and somehow more competent.

Now that I am older, younger folks pick what I watch on TV, tell me to turn the music down, that my cars and bikes are too fast, and that I need to lose my patience and wisdom to somehow become more competent ...

Pick one and stick to it, K?

'Robb' admits he's 55 and wanted to generate some focus on ageism. Another thread below.

I bit.

Amen!!

It sounds to me like our young apprentice has closed his mind to many possibilities. It is a shame to see a mind wasted at such a young age.

As a (nearly) 40 year old in the IT industry, leading a team of young "pups", I'd like to say what a rediculous load of crap this is. While these guys were (literally) not yet a twinkle in their fathers eye I was building my first computer (Yes, well before DOS. There was such a time. Even before C64!)

I promise you, it gave me a foundation in computing the young guys don't even understand, and as a result I can out-diagnose everything these smart alec, foul mouth, arrogant and over confident pups can throw at me.

In addition, I've seen too many dollars lost - most of my career has been in the finance sector - from quick decisions made by impatient youth, to have any doubt about the value of age.

I do have one old guy working for me who just doesn't get it...but then in my previous job I had one young guy the same. Stupid.

Screw you all, I'll drive my Porche 'till the day I die - and I'll still be getting faster lap times.

I've been in IT since my mid 40's and am now in my late 50's. I've worked with guys who are smarter than me and some who are not so sharp. However, I've yet to find someone who is more tenacious about solving problems than me.

I will, however, leave all that crawling around on the floor searching for bad connection to you young guys.... ;)

Bob

I totally agree with you. Life time experience and know-how is way ahead of learning on the go from books and diploma.

Experience is part of life, you should try to gain as much knowledge as you can from these people. This is what you call WORK EXPERIENCE and it's worth a lot of diplomas.

Very good example, I, myself would choose a doctor with experience. This says it ALL.

A lot of people have come through my Aikido class who are younger than my grandchildren. The ones with attitude are kind of fun. The creative ones with attitude find out pretty quickly what of their inventiveness works and will last, and what won't work. On the dojo mat, the lessons are fast. Experience is the best teacher. My other life is as a computer specialist. I'm one of the old wrinklies you kid about. I'm also one of the people who still contributes in a lot of ways - in how to make systems not only faster, but also safer. The real data of the world needs a volvo, kid. I have hired people as old as 65, because they understand business processes and human failing so much better. They can see real quick just which of the youngster's techniques will work and hold water, and which ones will cause contract rebates and pain. The bottom line is survival, and the natural result of survival is old age. Talk to me again in 20 years or so about what you've written here.

>a wrinkly driving a sports car...pathetic!
Pathetic? Nope, but probably paid for and with lower insurance rates than yours.

>The oldies struggle to keep up with change.
Everyone does, the "natural consequence" is that the industry changes fast.

>how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore
Wrong again. I've seen the youngsters who don't know command line functionality. They are lost without a GUI.

>would you employ a 55 year old? Truthfully please!
Absolutely! Reliabilty, track record, experience dealing with people, getting the job done on time, on schedule, and without desperate all-nighters to meet a deadline they suddenly realize is real.

>It is for the young.......isn't it?
No, it's those who know how to get the job done regardless of age.

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have everything electronic become the latest and greatest Model with the latest and greatest versions of software. But hey, we live in the "real world" and not everyone has the money to go out and get the latest and greatest everytime something new comes along. Someone has to know how the old AND the new both work so that they can interface with each other.

My experiences have shown that the New Kids on the block, so to speak, have little or no desire to want to learn or do anything that is difficult. They use the latest and greatest of Code Writing Tools because they have no desire to learn to write code the hard way. Heaven forbid if there is a problem and the automatic debugging tool can't find it.

Many telephone companies and other technology companies that I deal with are hiring back many of their 'retired' employees because they cannot find and/or train younger employees or more importantly find employees with good work ethics. The typical younger employee who has grown up with affluent parents already has a car and lots of things provided for them by their parents and therefore no real reason to 'have to' work at a job that is not 'fun' to do and if they get fired or quit - so what - they just get their parents to support them.

The younger employees would rather talk on their cell phone, text message, surf the internet, play with their latest and greatest "GameBoy", download music and ringtones, than to actually want to work or learn something they do not want to learn. They would much rather 'play a game' than to sit down and write code to design a game. Is it any wonder that the majority of the intellectual and technical and manufacturing jobs once held in high esteem here in the US have gone overseas. The newer high school graduates are lucky if they can find a job these days that requires any intelligence other than to know what button to push for a burger and a drink and be able to ask "would you like fries with that". If it weren't for the automation systems developed by some of us older geeks I doubt they would know if the fries were cooked or not.

I am an old geek dang ya... sonny! Seriously, the same issue one may find with older Techies is the same I find with the young ones. No it alls abound in both sectors... look for the eye of the tiger in both. I much prefer to hire those who have vision and who have the work ethics and experience to be practitioners not just dreamers.

DOS, what is that? Know history but be and stay current. I find just about as many, both young and old, that do not have the ability to stay current, to do the reading and research, upgrade skills. I do not see any of the several thousand employees over 50 in my organization that are in the IT job families struggling with being current. Like with any employee, it is our job to be up to date and if not, we will be afforded an opportunity to find employment.

I actively seek over 50 employee?s especially military retires.

Phil Staten
Test Consultant
T|SYS| ProphITSM
Quality Assurance
Tel: 706.641.3478
Fax: 706.644.8440
pstaten@tsysprophit.com

TSYS ProphIT is protected by U.S. Patent 6,817,008

When I was 10 ? 21 yr olds seemed so, old
When I turned 21 ? I did not think life could be good after 30
At 30 ? 40 yr olds seamed so wise
Then at 40 ? 50 looked like the end of vitality
But I?m 45 now, and leaning more each day
We can only hope that you can say the same, when you arrive
So learn from us old folks (you know; the ones that drive cars you can not afford insurance for, the ones who just became certified scuba divers, who play volleyball with the twenty and thirty something crowd and have to twist there arms to play one more game ? because they are soooo tired.)

Age is not what is important but being able to analyze the situation, then priortize it and lastly to troubleshoot the problem...see anything about age in there???? Besides Volvo may look stuffy but it still will get you there! And HEY WATCH OUT there is still of us who reverance that name and do not use it as a curse word!

Just remember:
Age, wisdom and treachery will overcome youth and skill.

I'm old enough to know I don't know it all. I don't think you know twaddle.

And as for knowing DOS...what do you think WSH runs under 50% of the time.

As for employing a 50 year old -- if he knows what he is doing -- in a freakin' heartbeat. Especially if it was a choice between him or you, you putz.

While I would agree with your assessment of anyone talking about DOS, age has nothing to do with it. How old do you think the professors are in the computer science departments in Universities across the states? Of course then again you might want to change that to 23 year olds!

Besides at 53, I do just fine in a room full of "inexperienced" "narrow-thinking" "immature" "juvenile" high tech "kno-it-all" college graduates. I work on a state of the art FTTH project incorporating VoIP, TV over IP, HDTV over IP and other new technologies.

Ask yourself this: Would you hire a technically proficient young person that won't listen to or challenges every request a client makes, over someone that is mature enough to hear out your request, make an assessment, provide input, and proceed based on the discussion?

Again, it's not age based, its character based. You sound just like the "young whippersnapper" who purports to know everything but can't figure out why the "Old Man's" method works best.

I have a 23 year old son that has enough sense to realize that age is a good thing, and can be relied upon to provide significant insight. Too bad you don't!

You see older folks instinctively standing in front of the steam roller of progress; I see them getting behind the wheel, trying to apply technology intelligently. Change for the sake of change is wasted time and money. Jeez did you work on Bill Clinton's staff?

Don't get me wrong senility definitely skews my position, but when you used 55 years old as the age, you are barking up the wrong tree. As an IT/Telecom Consultant I work with a gentleman that is 60, who is without a doubt, the "sharpest tool in the shed", I've had the pleasure of working with.

Try growing up - On the other hand don't you might have to fire yourself!

Some of us old guys that see some real booms in the early 80's comming off mainframes and seeing another peak in the early 90's with communications equipment (IP) and a final peak around y2K have also seen significant salary and bonus upward swings. lots of us old guys rode up on the trend (and worked hard to earn it) have seen a signicant layoff and re-hire trends to get the salaries down.

I've seen a trend to adjust salaries by hiring younger less expensive workers and phase out the older workers.

Why don't you try thinking? Besides I think we should poll those younger than you to see if YOU are too old to be in IT. A better solution would be for you should quit your government job and try real competition.

Robb: I think you've touched upon a topic many people looking to enter the IT industry fear. After many years as an admin assistant, I decided to pursue a career in IT. My first choice was programming, something which I very much enjoy. However, being a female in her late 30s, and after hearing comments similar to the topic of your original post, I changed course for fear that no one would hire me over a recently-graduated young male. I'm now close to getting my MSCE cert and still worry about this being an issue. But I think this fear only encourages me to keep learning new things.

I do think that age discrimination does sometimes occur in the world of IT, but I also believe it occurs in most other industries as well.

Someday you will be an older worker. Then you will have a perspective that obviously right now you lack.

Employees come in all shapes and sizes, their values and positive attitudes are more important and much harder to teach than the latest programming language.

Many times technology does not solve problems. I have worked in several very diverse industries, there are no NEW IT problems.

I know that this makes many people angry, but it is true (I have many examples). Let me provide one. SAN/NAS wonderful stuff, but I was "doing" the SAN stuff in 1969 using the SAME principals.

I may not know, exactly, how to code C#/.Net 2003, but I know how it should be done and the BUSINESS PROCESS (this is the most import part of any development project). Why, "been there and done that".

I would employ wisdom (soundness) over youth. If both measure the same, I would go with the practical experience.

...how far age discrimination got them in the early 1990's. This old bat (56) IT director has taught many certified young pups how to logically troubleshoot problems for which they could not find the answer on TechNet or Google. And, yes, Virginia, the DOS prompt (cmd) still gets you out of the deep weeds.

I am in my early 50's, I am newer than the youngters. Did I work here in the 70's? Not likely. I was in my late teens early 20's in the 70's. My first career took 20+ years.

I knew before I clicked the link that this had to be a joke. Reading the silly post, I'm sure of it.

"90% of current IT folk don'e even know what.." DOS is? Here's a newsflash: 100% of *competent* IT folk know. Anyone who doesn't understand DOS won't understand Windows or Unix, either. It's called "the basics". Anyone can wash the windows of a building, but that doesn't mean they can build one.

Maturity and demonstrated skill are important. I'd rather have an experienced developer or administrator do the job right the first time. I'll just have to hire someone experienced to fix the problem, anyway.

So what will you be doing when you're 55? Certainly not IT, because according to your theory, you'll still be working in Windows 2000 and be unwilling or unable to learn anything new. Hope you have a really good retirement plan...

Someday you will be an older worker. Then you will have a perspective that obviously right now you lack.

Employees come in all shapes and sizes, their values and positive attitudes are more important and much harder to teach than the latest programming language.

I would definitely consider an applicant based on relevant experience, not on age. Some older workers are dynamos who stay current, and have been either laid off en masse or changing careers. Just like anyone, if someone is a primadonna, they won't be trying to keep skills updated because they are (probably) thinking they are perfect. Young workers are no exception.

I completely agree. It is not a matter of a person's age, but what they know. Age discrimination is wrong, no matter what the case.