Are certifications destroying the world?

I appreciate your comments. Depending on your career focus (you mentioned web programming) you may want to take a look at the CIW series of certifications as well.

Best regards

It may be largely true that fixing a board with an iron and solder is a skill not needed on a helpdesk. It's also true that respect for a diverse skill set and set of people is very important.

A+ as a hygiene factor is great and I agree with your argument. But more hygienic is knowing when not to insult someone. Being online is not an excuse to call anyone obsolete.

I work for the military as a contractor, and the thought of all of the idiots out there with wide open networks makes me feel like vomiting!!!

..for a seasoned reply. I've just recently broken into the IT field after completing an ATA degree in CIS. Currently, I'm working part time as a Geek for Best Buy and tyring to chart my course in these troubled waters. I've studied 3 texts for the A+ exam and am ready to take the test soon. I know I need to pay my dues experience wise and I hope to hold out long enough to get a full time job (not in retail). Your suggestions are helpful and shed a different and optimistic light on the issue. Thanks

My issues with your post...

1) They don't designate who cheated and who didn't on the exam. Since the tests are widely available the certification is compromised and therefore useless. Would you want a heart surgeon certified after taking a 5k boot camp?

2) You can have 10 years of experience or you can have 1 year of experience 10 times (stop and think about that for a minute). There is no Transender/Cliff Notes for experience, and no boot camp can compress years of first hand experience in to a 5k three week class. The key is 10 years of related experience, not ten years of the same thing over and over again.

Everyone has gaps, but in my experience those that hold MCSE's think they can stop learning because they have the cert. If your experience is not diversified then you could have huge gaps, but a cert test isn't suddenly going to make you a well rounded tech. The old adage goes "There is more then one way to skin a cat".

Cert tests only give you the manufacture method for skinning the ?cat?. When I look a cert test questions I can think of 4 different ways of solving almost any given problem, none are on the test, but I can promise you they work because I have done them myself (50% of the time my solution brings a faster resolution to the problem).

I would be stunned to see MCSE use Hyena, the tool is just as good (some would say better) as the administrative snap-in for the MMC, but you won't find Hyena anywhere on the exam.
http://www.systemtools.com/hyena/index.html

Show me an MCSE that knows how to use WinInternals Administrator?s Pak and has his default browser set to FireFox, and I?ll show you the one Micro$oft lemming that isn?t running towards the cliff at full speed (yes I know it?s a myth? but you get my point).
http://www.winternals.com/products/repairandrecovery/index.asp
http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

If I have an AS, BS and MS, I wouldn't be looking at a job that required a cert.

You think that is bad... I work with a guy that was a Marine PC tech about the same time, you Navy boys had it good according to him ;) He has Compaq certs but I don't hold it against him.

Having just started my MCSE as part of a Masters In IT (in other words there are Uni subjects also), I am finding that the latest batch of exams is far from what is published on the net. Microsoft have gone out on a limb and made the exams much harder.

An example - learn all 300 questions that come with 70-290, get 99% on SelfTest software's 160 questions, learn 200+ braindump questions, study the book, practice the exercises and still fail the exam!

Am I dumb? No - the questions asked fell on the line between this subject and 70-291. Microsoft now expect that the white papers and TechNet knowledgebase be studied also for info that will be tested on the exams.

I have to admit being a bit dumbfounded - why should I have to do far more study and practice to get an MCSE than someone that did it 5 years ago by rote-learning questions?

Anyone out there agree with me?

BTW - regarding reliance on certs - I do agree with others that they are no substitute for experience.

We have employed an amazingly skilled SQL programmer with a weakness -- he cannot spell. Scripts break because of it. Searches fail because of it.

Why can't he spell? Because society does not require it and the IM generation worships the ppl using s3cr3t communication codz.

An older generation actually conducted the "Obfuscated C Contest" to see who could write a computer program in the most dense, obfuscated style possible that still performed a specified task.

The winner of it was undeniably highly skilled but not expected to continue writing programs in obfuscated code. PPL that are born and raised using "LOL" to end every sentence may be weak in their programming discipline.

I started as a temp for general PC support in a 200 desktop environment. I took over the network 7-8 months later when they fired the net admin (note this was my first positon in computers/networking). I learned on the fly and obtained my MCSE and CCNA while doing so. I was responsible for servers, networking and some desktop support in my last place.
I just recently started at a new company where I am strictly networking (not even server OS anymore). I need to build my home lab as I did enjoy playing with W2K + 2K3 server, ISA, SQL and Exchange. As well as Linux and BSD, and I don't want to get entirely rusty with that stuff.

The Dot-Com boom and bust is this very thing you are talking about on a grand scale.

An entrepreneur enters a market primarily for emotional reasons, it makes very little difference WHAT the market is buying/selling. He wants to get rich. He forms a business to make it happen.

Emotions govern everything starting with hiring; he will instinctively hire persons like himself, and yet not his superiors. They, in turn, hire persons like themselves, and yet not their superiors either.

See "The Peter Principle" by Dr. Lawrence Peter.

The implication is obvious; in an entrepeneurial company, you can expect that NOBODY will be older or smarter than the entrepeneur.

Exceptions exist, of course, and that's where Darwinism comes into play. How can a single entrepreneur challenge a company that achieves "synergy" (this is when two complementary talents produce a result that neither could produce alone)?

In big-corporation America, the rules are "safety first." Nobody gets fired for buying Microsoft, or for hiring certified technicians. Why should an $8 an hour worker risk her job by taking a risk on a highly experienced yet uncertified technician? It is not likely to happen. It is no risk to her to stick with Certified Workers. If they cannot do the job, that is no threat to HR.

Small business is far more likely to choose experience over certification, and more likely yet to hire if you possess a cultural match.

A CCNA will not get you a Cisco related networking position (unless it is coupled with a couple of years of networking experience). If you obtained your CCNP/DP, maybe there would be a better chance of getting into a network support role, but the CCNA will not do it by itself. IMHO.

I have run across companies, particularly small companies, requiring "managers" to have certificiation(s). If you are looking for a real "management" position, steer clear of these. It is very likely that, either the hiring manager is certified, and has a bias, or you will just be a sys admin with a fancy title. They obviously don't understand what management is.

In the mid 90s Novell had the same problem with their CNE certification (remember CNE? it started the whole certification bandwagon!). There were an increasing number of bootcamps prepping students with lists of real questions. Paper CNEs were rife. I heard of one person with MCNE (that's supposed to be much harder than CNE) who had no idea how to configure a COM: port on a DOS workstation (this *was* the mid 90s where Win95 had yet to be released!).

So, what did Novell do? They started practicum-based assessment. Give the student a simulated environment and ask them to reconfigure something; track their keystrokes & mouse clicks.

Oh, how did you configure the COM: port? Anyone who's still 'young at heart' will know that you need to use the MODE comamnd.

"In every interview/job since retiring (5 1/2 yrs ago) the lack of a cert or degree has never been an issue."

That's because being a Chief beats nearly any other Cert hands down, especially if HR has any idea what that little gold anchor means. I have gold anchors too; took 15 years and 3 baluts to earn them. It means almost the impossible -- a person that leads and yet obeys; teaches and yet is still learning, a whole family of contradictions.

I attended a chief's conference in San Diego some years ago (RM-DP merging conference). A large number of men and women packed the auditorium. Master Chief Leonard wanted to know how many of each rank was present. Paygrade is merely E7, E8 or E9 but "Chief" is a state of mind. He asked, "How many E7's are here, please stand." ONE MAN stood up -- the rest were Chiefs. I felt bad for the man who was horribly embarassed by it of course.

He'd come from BUPERS; the inside-the-beltway culture that produced the occasional comedy-in-uniform, an LTJG who attended a re-enlistment ceremony on the USS Barry and had been told to be sure to salute the Ensign when you board the ship. She came back later and said, "I hunted all over the ship but I could not find an ensign to salute him!" A half dozen sailors within earshot nearly had an accident they were laughing so hard (the "ensign" is the flag flying from the stern).

In Australia at least I think that the Tech industry needs to define itself better, I see it more as the new age mechanic but many see themselves differently. I was on my way before a change in career and found that experience and knowledge coupled with some instinctual attempts at resolving issues helped. Apprenticeships should be brought into this field and it would improve it immensely particularly in the domestic scene

In addition to the complaint made, how 'bout this situation:i was working in the IT department of my current employer, when i saw how much cisco stuff we were going to implement...company wide, i thought i'd look in to training, the fool that i was, i thought i had a career there...well when i proposed that i go to school and i pay for it, i was told that they specifically don't look for people with certifications...mean while, he continually kept calling in Cisco people and the 3rd party service provider who service the stuff. Point being, i live 2 blocks away from the site, and have at least the aptitude to execute instructions when a crisis strikes, since he was always too busy with family to answer emergencies. I thought it ludicrous that he wouldn't want a trained assistant there(esp.since my supervisor wasnt eager to learn it) I finally figured out that it isn't what you know but who you know--this was CYA going on here...im dying to get back in to tech work, but its been really hard...has anyone run into this situation--and come up with a solution? Im festering as a CSR now....

Of course it's easy to get if you have:

(In Canada)

A good Credit history
No Criminal Record
A Stable address for ten years
Stable employment
No 'holes' in your history (20 Years for secret)

This also depends on WHO or what (Government) agency is doing the checking as well is suplying the clearance.

I just had mine upgraded & it was even more 'intrusive' than that again.

Every profession that worth bucks has certifications. No doubt about it. Does the cert mean that you are an expert in your field. Doctors who attend med school cannot perform Brain Surgery on you and expect you to live. They only know the dangers, what and where to cut, etc. They own hundereds of thousands of dollars for their training and by no means are they experts. The CERTIFICATION is by all means a way for you to get your foot in the door and that's it. If I ever hear someone talk about certifications, then let's compair them to the degree Doctors get after completing Medschool or Registered Nurses. The fact is, you go to school, you take a class, you take the test. You pass the test PERIOD! I go to medical school, I take a class, I take the test, I pass the test. I do this for eight years. OK, now I'm almost ready to become a doctor. Now its time to take the boards test. Guess what. The Medical Board tests are now avaliable ONLINE. Bite me.

advancedgeek,
how did you know that it is the actual security+ test? are you planning to still take the security+ exam?

I'm laughing, I earn a substantial ammount of my money cleaning up after the certified. Certs can give a lot, and can be very useful, but they are not a way to be an IT professional, only a chance to become one or to prove you are one. As long as the halfwits in charge keep making the mistake of thinking they are instead of experience I'm laughing all they way to the bank.

cert, but there are still way too many people profiting from selling paper ones.
Always bear in mind though some of those with a paper cert will be good at IT, they just played the game to get a foot in HR's door.
Paper certs were about in 96 by the way, 2003 was just a good year.

whole-heartedly, but I must say in the nicest possible way that if the attitude you display here comes out in an interview you are going to keep having real problems. Never sell yourself based on what's wrong with the other guy, always on what's right with you.
Also people who wait for opportunities miss them

Hi! I am extremely disillusioned for the same reason. I have studied my butt off too! Note: I have found that after taking the classes and paying for them and the certs, that some of the tests are passed out on the campuses itself and we are asked to keep it quiet! I actually was given a prep test that had been ticked off in a class by someone whom got it all wrong. Can you imagine at 140.00 a pop and not quite working yet, the inconvience. It is no secret that these tests are difficult enough and do add a wide range variety of data for the test, dependant on which school etc you have studied at. I was furious that I would be handed data that I am paying an istituion for that is accidently marked off wrong (4 study purposes). Talk about being set up for failure. Converesly, I am equally ashamed at those hiring all these people hired with no certs, while we are back in school again and constantly upgrading our skill sets, while these imposters take employ we have very much earned.I am also, finding that a lot of institutions that had testing centers within them are no longer in existence. It is so underhanded. Not only are we jammed up with trying to get the work, continue studies and work search competing with idiots/imposters that are taking our jobs; they now want us to go excessive mileage on jammed up schedules to take the certs. I am shocked at the lack of integrity. It is a sad day for those system environments as well. Did anyone else notice how some of the highest tech schools are equally dropping the classes like hot cakes? My last semester that would have made this very climatic for my career goals had dropped four diffrent classes. I was back to A square trying to get them particular advanced skill sets under my belt.Thank God for alternatives. We will be the ones eventually cleaning up the wreckage they have created for the companies whom employ them. Note also that I am not against ways for some hardship cases to be able to financially get the information they need. First criteria to be met, would be: accurate info. Second criteria: legitimate Third would be : Earn it. It is only fair.

someone else who knows what IT is about. The answers are self evident formulating the correct question is the hard bit.

There will always be various levels of skill most definitely, but certs were meant to be way of guaranteeing a minimum level of skill in the holder. This is manifestly not true, not is it true for higher education, you can buy that as well. People with experience should be vetted based on it, people who want experience should be vetted based on theory and attitude.
You can be certified as at a particular level of knowledge, but as soon as 'cheating' becomes regular, the cert becomes a bit of meaningless paper.

is n't a question. Education wise it isn't even an issue.
Certs are very specific and have a limited lifespan, a real degree is more general and apparently lasts forever.
If the job market says you have to get a cert to get a foot in the door, then go get a cert. It's a bu**er, but a no-brainer as well unless you want to use your education to serve burgers and a coke.

I'm sort of self taught as well, have you discussed the problem with your admin, if it's an on going problem he can't solve just bouncing a few reasonable ideas off your head might help him.

P.S. Don't start out with becuase I'm qualified in blah you should listen to me. If the admin has a lot of experience you'll find out how much you don't know as well. If he's the MD's favourite nephew, hard luck.

and definitely no whining. Twenty years experience usually parlays in to a job or two, except for those who hold academia in higher esteem of course.

In addition to the complaint made, how 'bout this situation:i was working in the IT department of my current employer, when i saw how much cisco stuff we were going to implement...company wide, i thought i'd look in to training, the fool that i was, i thought i had a career there...well when i proposed that i go to school and i pay for it, i was told that they specifically don't look for people with certifications...mean while, he continually kept calling in Cisco people and the 3rd party service provider who service the stuff. Point being, i live 2 blocks away from the site, and have at least the aptitude to execute instructions when a crisis strikes, since he was always too busy with family to answer emergencies. I thought it ludicrous that he wouldn't want a trained assistant there(esp.since my supervisor wasnt eager to learn it) I finally figured out that it isn't what you know but who you know--this was CYA going on here...im dying to get back in to tech work, but its been really hard...has anyone run into this situation--and come up with a solution? Im festering as a CSR now....

It all depends on how badly you want the job.
Heck I could setup a bogus company have my friends pose as my previous bosses, and wa-la.. I have certs and exp. all bogus.

I have been contemplating on this issue for a very long time
now. My friend, its not just certification, it our whole graduation
process our schooling and every other exam that v take from the
age of 3.

Today every exam is based on numbers, and numbers are given
on predefined question. Its is not important to know the subject
but u just need to ans those questions and u r through.

This puts the whole assessment thing in a gray area, where u
dont check the caliber of the student with respect to intellect
and subject understanding but the presentation skills.

I feel very sad that I had to grow up in this hypocratic system
and m a part of it. the worst thing is that i dont know wat can be
done about it.

I agree with your assertion above. I proceeded with my degree as a foundation, and am now looking at certs. I deferred while trying to decide which to start with, but the essential gist of your logic is what I went with.

It isnt one or the other so dont get dragged into the argument. Yet, reality is that each person has to evaluate where to start based on time and resources. Need a quick start? One of my students just graduated with a 2 year degree and got a job as a programmer when 4 year students dont necessarily get one. Others have got their MCSE and are doing well too. They went from paper MCSE to a real one. I got a lot of mileage from my AAB (in 1986) and only recently finished my BS and MS. In between I went from a paper AAB to an IT professional.

They really aren't. What is destroying the IT world and has been for some time is that many employers don't even bother to check references, or anything else that a person's resume claims. I have encountered way too many people who claimed on their resumes to have certs and other experience and the employer never bothered to check anything to confirm.

Too many employers don't have someone who knows the right questions to ask (and what the answers are)be part of the interviewing process. That's where the real problem is. The cheating on certs, the "paper" certs are really just a symptom of the problem.

I too agree with the person who stated that a cert doesn't mean you are a "god" and you know everything and employers should not look on them as such. It just means that you should have a good foundation of knowledge upon which to build further. Just like a law school graduate who just passed the bar exam is not considered a seasoned expert. It just means that they know enough to be a beginning lawyer, becoming a seasoned expert comes with years of hard work and experience.

AS for the person who was complaining that their previous certs, college and whatnot come across as "useless", I agree with the person who basically said that's a bad attitude and it will only hamper you. You've got to put a positive twist on your education and experience. And maybe you need to update yourself with current technology, I don't know. I know someone who did main frame programming for years and years. They had a lot of work up through the year 2000 scare but then after that their work started drying up. They complained about not being able to get a job, but they hadn't ever bothered to keep their programming skills up to date, they didn't know windows programming, or Java, etc. only the old mainframe stuff. You've got to keep your skills updated. It's a constant challenge because Computer Science is very fast paced. It's nice if an employer will help you keep your skills updated but if they don't, it's your responsibility to yourself and your career to do it on your own. Whatever it takes.

you know, I'm sure he/she has learned a lot that wasn't covered by any test. The tests are not meant to give someone omniscient knowledge, they are only meant to lay a foundation on which to build with further experience. In 9 years of being exposed to MCSEs, I have known a scant few MCSE's that thought they knew everything and thought that they didn't need to keep learning. On the contrary, the vast majority of MCSE's that *I* have known were much the opposite, voracious learners and real go-getters. It's been many of the non-degreed, non-certified people I have encountered over the past 12 years that have been the big know it alls and the ones who didn't want to be bothered with continual learning.

I wouldn't even consider hiring anyone who didn't have a BS degree, and at least 5 years of relative experience. The certs are more cream in my opinion most of the time and give a truly qualified person an edge over other qualified people who don't have the certs. If I am faced with 2 candidates with equal education and experience, they both pass their technical interviews with flying colors but one of them has a relative cert or certs and the other one has no certs, well guess what - the person with the certs is going to get the job.

But if on the other hand I've got 2 candidates, both have the education requirement, candidate A has 10 years of relative experience but no certs and passes the technical interview with flying colors. Candidate B has only 5 years of experience, a cert and doesn't do as well as Candidate A with the technical interviews. Well who would I hire? Candidate A.

And here's why I require Bachelor's degrees: they show that a person can start something and follow through to completion, a commitment to a goal that was executed and accomplished. They show that you completed your liberal education requirements which make you a more rounded person. And bonus points to people who put themselves through college all on their own without having their parents hand it to them on a silver platter.

Drop outs will hem and haw and cry fowl all over about that, but in my 40+ years of living I only find it to be more true with each passing year.

SHUT THE FUCK UP

I have been contemplating starting on certs, but every time I start I get into arguments with my friends that have certs saying that the certs they hold don't seem to help them at all.... So to the people that actually hold them ...are they worth it.. I have five years experince working with W2k and a year with 2k3... and have a good track record with my company... Will they ever benifit me??

I need to work with it. I've been put through the ringers when it comes to AD, but have rarely had the opportunity to work with it directly in a production environment.

What value does certification hold without proper training and experience?

The value in offering your employees a certification 'freebie', would be to promote your consultancy by advertising that your staff are "highly trained and certified".

That makes no sense to me at all. This is exactly the kind of garbage that you see when either...

1) top level IT management are not IT at all
2) the organization relies too much on HR for the hiring process.

How difficult would it be to involve someone from Information and Infrastructure management in the interview process?

I am currently taking a 2k3 mcse/ccna course and of the ten people in my class 4 of them actually work in IT, the rest are looking for career changes and some are actually looking to get into the OT field with no experience at all. Microsoft has made the tests a lot tougher, I have taken the 2003 server and network infrastructure tests and they were extremely hard. I have worked in this field for three years now and I had a very hard time passing the tests. So I think they got rid of the paper MCSE, but now they have it so that even people in the field can?t pass it, and yes I work closely with the HR Department where i work and all they look for is certs.

I started by building PC's in 1998. I knew most of the basics, joined college in the evenings going to two different colleges four evenings a week after finishing work.(I worked as an engineer for a Japanese company for 24 years) I had to do this because they would not let me sit the exams without attending classes. I was way ahead of other people(mostly youngsters)The reason they gave me- you had to do 26 written assignments.I took the A+ exam 3 weeks after my instructor- and passed.I did 2 Semesters of CCNA course where i learned about networking form Cabling upwards(they dropped the course because people dropped out and it wasn't worth running the course)I have installed 15 computer Peer to peer network from ground up.Have installed many small office networks and sorted problems where others have given up.I am now studying for a MCSE, have purchased Win 2003 Server (Trial version) and will learn by diong IT not reading about IT. There is no substitute for experience.I now work for myself.
Balbir

Im sorry when I said it was a joke...but what I meant is that while I glanced at the actual test...the questions on it were easy for me to answer. I have 5 years of experience doing this stuff (not much compared to some of you ol timers in here :)). I do it for 8 hours a day, then I go home and do it all night. It's my career, and my hobby. Sorry if I offended someone.

There are many of us "old guys" in the field that have a disdain for most "test takers" since we are the ones who typically have to clean up behind them. I've had to do this for years and do not have all of the alphabet soup following my name.

What further adds insult to injury is when you have some idiot in HR that "demands" these certifications as qualifications for positions that need real-world experience. I'm currently being tasked to obtain my MCSE in a six-month window from my employer as a result.

My hat is off to you for getting in and rolling up your sleeves. That's the ONLY way you can obtain both the respect of your peers as well as the necessary day-to-day experience these jobs require. Don't be surprised if some of us in the field want to see the "wizards" dance before we pay their paper certifications homage...

Working at a small, family owned company for 9 years as the sole IT dept. with 6 servers on-site, 3 in a hosted facility and 35 clients.

I have had my hands on every aspect of the company from Admin to Help Desk, including re-designing and replacing their old outdated network.(Novell 3.1 upgraded to W2k domain)

We recently hired a .NET developer for our e-commerce app and this guy knows his stuff well. I welcomed his hire as it now gives me the opportunity to have someone to bounce ideas off of instead of being the only one with systems knowledge.

My problem is that with his hire, (makes double my salary but deserves it.) my boss has decided that I will not get a substantial raise until I acquire a MSCE cert.

My boss is a good guy and I enjoy my workplace but I think after interviewing prospects for the developers position, he came to the conclusion that only people with certifications are qualified.

Now remember, my boss is the president, lead salesman, top decision maker about EVERYTHING. He is the micro-manage king that understands about 15% of what I do and 5% of how it is done. As long as things work - it's out of sight, out of mind.

So, in order to break 50k, I HAVE to take this exam. I enrolled at WPI (a great tech school in the N.E.) and took out a 10k loan for this MSCE class which lasted 6 months, attending nights and every other Saturday. The class was good, lots of hands-on in-depth labs but I still need to take the Microsoft exams now.

The troubling part with the Microsoft exams is that the only correct answer is the "Microsoft" answer. Anyone with any experience knows that most 3-party apps can do a better job at server maintenance.

I'm stuck spending countless hours and much of my own money to get a 13% raise. Being in my mid thirties and single, I spend enough time with work related issues in my life. All this time spent and it will not change one aspect of how I perform my job.

I will take the exams because hopefully with the cert and experience, I will find a higher salary position employed elsewhere - even though I really enjoy where I work now. /wants a house but priced out of the market!

When i started working,26 years ago, i worked 4 days a week and went to college one day a week( To study for a Higher National Certificate in Electronics) My company gave me the time off, i paid my own fees. I stuck with the same company for 24 years.In the end it was they that terminated my employmebt with 51 other people.
What happened to apprenticeships?
Where the employer paid you while you learned the trade.
Balbir

I have added systems that save a group of 20 people over an hour a day, every day for the rest of time (each!).

I have made it so remote users can get in and place orders or check on the status of an order without having to drive for an hour or more.

If you have a truck you use to deliver product, that is an ASSET that ALLOWS you to bring in the revenue. Without that truck, no deliveries or much smaller ones in cars or on bikes?

If something enables something else to work better it is only poor accountant thinking that could EVER think of a good IT department as a cost instead of an asset.

It is only when people forget that no one department is EVER more important than another that you have problems. Doesn't matter how good your sales force is if you don't have a good department keeping track of recievables.

So it isn't an IT thought, but a company thought that needs to be achived.

My Cranium Softened Easily
hahaha

The people to blame are the bootcamps and training places that put dollar signs in peoples eyes and tell them all they need is to take this class for $2000 and they will make $11k a year from then on.

This is also why there are so many REALLY BAD techs out there. They went into IT during or right after Y2K and saw all the money being thrown around and saw it as a get rich quick deal. Just sit around and peck at a keyboard and rake in the big checks. Easy, right? hahahahahahahaaaaa. jokes on them.

You don't want a Security + anyway. If you want real hands on security training and confidence in what you have learned, get involved in SANS courses. They are much more real life including hands on and open book (real world) exams (with a time limit of course). CISSP is stil the Gold standard, but you have to have 4 years of dedicated verifiable security work to sit for the 6 hour $450 exam. The test questions that I found on the web were not even close to what the real exam was, though that was over 3 years ago. The SANS certs in my humble oppinion, are the best indicators of skill and knowledge, and are slowly being recognized and sought after. I have both the CISSP and SANS GSEC and thought the SANS is a validation of a stronger skill set, the CISSP is still the most recognized. I don't see too many posts asking for the Security +, though if you are just starting out and are low budget, it may not be a bad starter.
Still Learning,
BCos, CISSP, GSEC, A+ (and a few more less interesting ones).

I am from the paper CNE era.
Why havent we learned?

Because the only person to not lose his IT job,
is the least valuable, but most politically connected person- the non-technical IT manager.

By the way, where are you finding these sample tests? I was looking for Linux.
All I seem to find is someone trying to sell me something.

ron kaye

I completely agree with this guy. I m taking MSCE courses that is helping me a lot administering my web server and doing good things. I dont even have any certification yet.

Maybe Microsoft is trying to fix their exams?!?!!??!!!!! I just heard (in a webcast) that MICROSOFT IS NOW PUTTING INTERACTIVE QUESTIONS ON THEIR TESTS. He was saying that the new questions will be just like sitting at the box, and you have to fix problems, or whatever the question pertains to. Oh, I hope this is right. If it is...you cheaters better knock out those MCSE's as fast as you can :) :D :)

Everyplace I've worked, a "fake" would show up in no time. It may get them an interview or maybe even a job, but you wouldn't want to be in the trenches I've been in, without "the real thing"

Everyplace I've worked, a "fake" would show up in no time. It may get them an interview or maybe even a job, but you wouldn't want to be in the trenches I've been in, without "the real thing"

how good could you possible be if you couldn't after 12 years pass one cert?

(their view, not mine so dont start flaming me)

Many get a job and just don't think about getting certs.

But just like having a degree helps open doors, so does that CERT. And if you have that much exp the certs shouldn't be a problem. I just like to get them while an employer is picking up the tab.

That they ALWAYS get wrong.

When I go to type "date", 95% of the time it will come out as "data".

My coworker does that with "done" instead of "down".

I get confusing messages that someone is done. I didn't know they started.

the keyboard. I love that one.

Almost as bad as the post-it notes on the monitor.

I had to ask the one to at least put up 30 post-its so anyone wanting in would have to work for it a LITTLE.

it's so true, I've seen way too many IT people forget that they are there to serve the company and to make it as easy as possible for the employees to do their jobs. Your points were all right on.

Another excellent point. People should always remember - there is no reality, only perception. If you expect people to tune into your reality which is that you know your job, certs or not, you are going to be disappointed regularly. When you are looking for a job, you have to tune in to the employer's perceptions.

the word you are using most at the time.
DateChnaged everytime
System to collect reasons for stoppages in a manufacturing process, suddenly can't spell dealy.
Bu88er again !
So regular now I just do a search and replace for my usual ones.
Brain faster than my fingers, still better than my handwriting though, that's attrocious.

I tend to be a bit sensitive about the academically qualified denigrating the self taught. However this doesn't sound like a gap in his knowledge. Territorialilty is a certain indicator of mediocrity in book. A departmental beer or six with a frank discussion might work. Not met the guy, my style is "in your face", but that gets me in to difficulties with the insecure but in power types.
If he's keeping you back so you don't go past him, well pr1ck is my thought. I've worked for people I've trained, they remember I did, respect is due no matter where you are in the food chain, if you want any in return.

Agree with all your points in that post 100%. You know what would help is if people had to have a certain amount of experience first before they were even allowed to test for a cert. That would get rid of the Paper certs and give the certs back some credibility as long as the tests were sufficiently rigorous.

Not as bad as it used to be, but can still be a free ticket and it lasts way longer than certs.
20 years in the trade and my lack still raises eyebrows. Even if I'd took one, that would have been 85, so content of the degree obviously has nothing to do with it. Certs however are all content. My NT3.51 admin course still comes in handy, but it's useless from a HR point of view.

Not saying it's right, but it is used as an indicator of intelligence, even if iy was in advanced flower arranging or even more useless media studies.

Many, too many people out there are faking it.
But haven't we done this to ourselves??
There was such a huge drive in the last decade to 'Be Certified', it was worth more than a degree.
I myself have dealt with an Admin that had not a clue in the world, but had passed the tests. He would drive me NUTZ!!! Change settings and see what happened!! AAAAUUUUUGGGHHHHHH!!!
There has to be better control on this at very least...

My company is a VAR and solutions provider. We are required to have professionals on board with certifications for our vendors products/solutions in order to keep our agreements.

I also have about 17 years experience in the IT field. I started out after high school in one of those computer repair courses. I quickly came upon a job doing that. I advanced quickly over the years, although rather than staying with one company and gaining seniority, I would go from business to business, usually after 2-3 years, would begin looking for a new position. I had gone out on disability in 2000, and had to leave the company I was with. I've been trying to get back into the IT field with absolutely no luck whatsoever. I think over the past year I've had maybe half a dozen interviews, quite often seeming to go really well. One in particular was with a company who didn't really care about the certs, and they told me that. I was interviewed by VP who was an old-school network engineer. Since the majority of my "training" was OTJ, there are things that I didn't have to worry about in a various areas. He called me a "Diamond in the rough", because most of the people who worked there were engineers, most of them with degrees. He said he would call me for a 2nd interview with the other 2 VP's. He didn't call, I called back, and no response. So I don't know anymore.. Maybe I'll become a carpenter...

that is keeping you from getting any of these positions that you are talking about more than your lack of certifications. Just my .02

...just to get an interview with the computer company. The test was a technical one with real world scenarios and questions. The test was put together by the technical manager. I passed and was then subjected to technical questioning and general conversation. Some effort was put into the interview by my then employer. These days it seems that it is easy to get through an interview with the only consideration, in most cases, "Will you work for peanuts?"

I think if a person has a right experience and certs . Certs will definatly help, I have 3 years of exp but whatever job , I apply asks for a cert in addition to experience.

Not sure why is that or why a peace of paper holds so much value than a college degree and experience.

Do you really think Microsoft Cares!!!!
$2500 per course per person
$250 per exam per person.
A whole industry build around their product, paper mcse's recommending teir product regardless of what they know......
you do the math..........money, money, money
aint it funny it's got you all preaching good over evil when evil prevails alway
P.S
I am not a mcse, i am studying and learning on the job and am just as frustrated as anyone here some kid outta college gets the job over me (with 10 years experience) because he/she holds the paper saying they can pass an exam.
Good luck everyone.

..seems to promote a better understanding of the material, but your brush off of certifications, higher learning, and self education lead me to question your professionalism.

Our field involves a lifetime of education.