General discussion


Are ISPs' doing enough to combat the fight against online predators?

By Why Me Worry? ·
Seeing a few episodes on NBC regarding the topic of online predators who troll the chat rooms looking to have sexual relations with minors, that got me thinking about what the responsibilites are of the ISPs' who run these chat rooms. Usually, it would require teams of people from law enforcement or the like to pose as minors online to catch these pedophiles, but why aren't the ISPs' actively monitoring to see what is going on in their own network? Before all you privacy advocates start attacking me, think about your existing personal privacy and how easy it is for someone to get information about you. With ISPs', it usually takes a court order or subpoena for them to disclose the identity and conversation that went on in the chatroom, but why aren't they doing their due diligence to red flag such activity and get the police involved immediately? Why must a minor be victimized for the ISP to get involved in the investigation? Yes, minors have every right to use the internet for both education and leisure, but they don't have the right to be victimized by sickos who think it is proper to have sexual relations with underage kids.

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Is that their role?

by onbliss In reply to Are ISPs' doing enough to ...

It would be different if they were not cooperating with the Police and investigations and posing hurdles or throwing red tapes to stall investigations.

But is it their role to monitor actively?

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If they own the nework, it's their responsibility

by Why Me Worry? In reply to Is that their role?

to monitor traffic on it and know what's going on. If I am the systems admin, then it is my job to know what is going on on my equipment and be aware of any illegal activities and potential misuse of it. The same should apply to these ISPs', regardless of what it costs them. No excuses!

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It won't cost the ISP's anything

by neilb@uk In reply to If they own the nework, i ...

It will cost the subscriber. That's me.

What do you want them to monitor?
What do you want them to keep?
How long do you want them to keep the information?
Who should be allowed to get the information?
What about encrypted stuff. Should we outlaw it?
And so on.

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Level of Complexity

by Tig2 In reply to It won't cost the ISP's a ...

First- I agree that online predators should be stoppable. Any person who preys on children is reprehensible.

But a lot of these contacts occur in chat rooms outside of the ISP's perview. I can see the arguement that AOL should have a way to monitor. But what you suggest would be analogous to having my provider able to monitor my activities here. And I don't see how they could beyond knowledge that my IP visited TR's IP.

I tend to leave my machine logged in persistantly. So if I left now to run an errand, it would appear that I am sitting in front of the machine. Other than accessing time/date stamps from TR, how would you know the difference?

The way that watchdog organisations go about catching these guys is to insure that the transcript of the conversation is given to Police in a manner that insures chain of evidence. How would chain of evidence be gathered? Are you suggesting that my keystrokes should be visible to my ISP? What would the impact be on my other online activity? Should it all be monitored?

I am not comfortable with the reduction of privacy we currently have. I don't know that I would be comfortable with this as a solution.

I would like to see more of the approach used by Dateline and other watchdogs- get an admission, make sure it is witnessed, perserve chain of evidence, and grab the idiot when he shows up.

Edited for typo

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collectable data

by jdclyde In reply to Level of Complexity

What would be the results when this data is gleened by a hacker?

Imagine, every keystroke typed into the net, in a single database?

Wow, imagine the size of that file.
Wow, imagine the network overhead to run that kind of intrusive scanning?

Does AOL or the chat rooms require some kind of age verification to setup an account?

I would think THAT would be the logical place to start. The question is, how do you verify who is sitting behind that computer when you do the verifications?

Pay memberships only?

And of course we come to the obvious part, how do you enforce local rules on a global network?

And like you pointed out Tig, what is in place to make sure that the chain of evidence can never be contested as incorrect or fraudulent?

Full co-operation with law enforcement seems to be key.

But do they need a court order? Remember we seem to need a court order to keep track of what phone numbers are calling what terrorists, and that didn't even include listening in at that point. What is being talked about here is much more intrusive.

Then the nuts will throw in "what if you discover a differnt crime with this invasion?" That was one of the big "issues" that came up when they started to check packages on the subways in NY. The simple solution is don't carry that brick of pot on the subway and you won't get in trouble for it.

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23 minutes into the future

by Too Old For IT In reply to collectable data

Encrypt everything with de-centralized keys
Anonimize everything ... offshore.

Only way to keep the government out of your privacy.

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Won't work...

by TechExec2 In reply to 23 minutes into the futur ...

Won't work...

The NSA will catch your packets on the way out of the country...


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by dawgit In reply to 23 minutes into the futur ...

That would then be the importing / exporting of encripted material, ilegal in almost all countries. (including the US)

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your job

by jdclyde In reply to If they own the nework, i ...

Can you show a law that makes your failing to monitor and detect all illegal activity on your network a crime?

What is the punishment to you for failing to properly monitor your network?

Does a "best effort" make you safe, or are YOU going to be held accountable for all activity? Who else is to blame, your boss? All the way to the stock holders? After all, "they own" the company that is leasing the lines. Where do you start and where do you end?

"regardless of what it costs them". You sure are generous with other peoples money.

That leads us to the next question. How must this ISP monitor? All chats? All http? All p2p? All emails? What do they monitor, and how do they pull out the information you are looking for? How does an ISP know the difference between a 13 year old girl meeting a 30 year old man, and two adults hooking up?

It doesn't seem like you put a lot of thought into this. "Feeling" that someone should do something is not enough to solve a problem. "Thinking" that just because the ISP owns the lines, "they" are responsible and accountable for everything?

Would you throw everyone that works for the ISP in jail over this, or are you just looking to fine them big time? Put a company out of business with fines is a solution?

Side note:
Recently a news program (I think is was in Detroit, but could be wrong) went on-line, posing as a young girl. don't remember what the age was suppose to be, think is was 12 though. They told the preditors that their parents were gone and to come over at a certain time. When they got there and came inside, they were met by news cameras instead of a little girl. Cops would be waiting for them when they came out, even for the few that tried to make a break for it out the back.

Privacy advocates tried crying that this was entrapment and so the charges should be dropped. Others charged that the media should not get involved in law enforcement.

It was about fifty guys they nailed that day.

Of course we never hear about how these things end.

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Nope. It is my responsibility.

by onbliss In reply to If they own the nework, i ...

As a parent, I would like me to monitor my kids. Period. I will relax and enforce the monitoring as and when I deem it fit.

As a kid, I had lots of freedom but my mom made it her business to ensure her kids (me and my siblings) did not grow upto be street rowdies or get into bad habits. At that time, I thought she was interfering in my life. The only thing I could insist was that they do not open letters addressed to me. Well she did not have to worry about Internet in those days. Sometimes, I felt I did not have much privacy. Now I realize that I did not miss out anything, and that I have grown up alright. A whole bunch of credit should go to my parents for raising me.

Discpline. Monitoring. Or whatever we want to lable it, is best dispersed by the parents.

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