Arrogant lil ..co workers

You are right. Even Dell Computers admited they sold the batteries, and call their buyers to change them with no cost on shipping and service. It was commented here, and published in the Dell's News papers I receive timely.
They recognize that were Dell specs for a company in China.

It is sure that Macs will not work for engineering jobs; they are media production oriented. But you have many releases of Linux, some of them Real Time SOs. Even there is a National Instruments version in Flash mamory. The DSP field uses it.

by jcitizen Nov 4, 2006

That is interesting! In my 30 years in the field I have never run in to that. Just goes to show you can never have enough experience when it comes to computer driven industry!

Field Effect Transistors were a "new" term used in the late '60's and early '70's, but then they were a bit hissy and I avoided them. I suppose they are still used, but I haven't seen anything about them in sales ads or owners' manuals.

Cool!

Your answer is right, but the fact you don't hear about them may be you are not in the electronics business. Even there are new vacuum tubes. The most modern dessign I have seen (the last year) is an amplifier compossed of four coupled FETs for input, and two DC biased Penthodes. They say it delivers a total RMS power of 15w, with the old sharp and hot sound of vaccum. Check in ELEKTOR magazine.
In the industry of home electronics, they are using class B tiny amplifiers for Audio sets, built around FET-IC devices. For power sound, (in fact less than 50w) they use PWM to drive the speakers from the digital signal, this is class M. But in the entertainment industry (more than 100W RMS) you will find FET and Tubes still now.

Another thing I have to say. Nowadays they are almost the only sort of transistors used. The VLHSI devices that are now in the market are CMOS-FET. They are cheap, reliable, low compsumption, easy to make and scale, high current, high bandwidth, and for audio applications the real competitors with vacuum tubes. Only the work worse than these, in the low frecuency range. For the High-Mid, they are better.
Today, bipolar transistors are used mainly in the low signal range, or as drivers for hybrid dessigns. Even you have a Hex-FET replacement for the veteran 2N3055/3155.
There also are an almost modern device with four regions, the IGBT (a kind of thyristor), that is used for audio amplifying too.

Couldn't resist the pun, are these the new Dolly Parton Bio-Chip set?

I don't know the exact issue, but believe me. In my country there is a banking effort to get new accounts, that even they send me complete catalogs selling computers, entertainment tickes, coffe pots..., in the resumes of the month. Some bank offices has the stuff in the windows, in such way the people at the street will see them. I can believe this guy.

It is the newest product from them. It only has a few months. But it is built-in for the controller cards from the company. And they have no such deffenses as DP! Other way, you can download from a Mem-stick, with the drivers for the device you are building.

What do you mean? Asking for people to do what?

How many of you have not seen the video "Internet Help Desk", by Three Dead Trolls In A Baggie???

Google it and you'll need to change your underwear!

by mark40930 Nov 4, 2006

but most of the people I work with at my help desk are rabidly into World of Warcraft. What helps is that I am with a very knowledgable bunch of folks, most all of them have 5-7 years of experience in the IT field, including experience in system admin, telecommunications, and hardware troubleshooting.
We all laugh sometimes at the sales people we provide support, especially when we use RDC to perform access to their laptops to change settings. There is at least one who honestly believe we can see them through the laptop screen when we remote in!! Most however are grateful for what we can do for them to get them back out and running again.

I have been working on these ferschlinger things since around the time of the Radio Shack 2k "monster"s. I had clients with KayPro, HP, IBM System 32, Trash-80, Commodore, Compac, Acer/Leading Edge and countless others.

I say, "nuke 'em" (the machines - all of 'em). It's quick, it's simple, and, ... if you're careful, it doesn't threaten the customer half as much as a halon dump when they start smoking, or, ... God forbid, a WGA issues a false positive to the fire-control system.

Then we can get back to the daze when kids carried our groceries to our cars for us.

Now that felt gud.

In my line of work currently, we see that students can't read or write properly (not "barely", but can't). We get their pages for yearbooks and it's bedlam. Publishers are trying everything they can think of to distance their services from the students - like employing PDF, in order to make the schools more responsible for their own slip-shod work.
These kids have been fed on entertainment, not education; then propped up with "you can do anything you want, be anything you want" while the tests are being further skewed downward to reflect that scores are improving.

It's a mess, so IT's a mess.

You seem a Mentor. That is the way to deal with Human Relations while in negotiation.
You are very right, only might need a little nailing in the expression, for a better understanding. But you have said it in the shortest space available. Good job!

That's the way the things are well done. I realize it for my first paid job, and I won. So, I teach this to my pupils, when learning the search for a job. And I teach unemployed people, and people currently employed. Normally, all of them are looking for ads in a site as Monster, or Laboris. But it is hard to get the people skilled about this.

by brandonforest Nov 4, 2006

I've been in the business for 22 years, since DOS 2.11. I'm still learning about it. I don't bother with certs because they only slow me down and cost me money. I always cross-train with the latest technologies. I sell my services from a proven track record, and pickup new skills as I go. I consider all positions for three things. 1)$$$, 2)What am I going to learn, 3)How the position will further my career.

by ssampier Nov 4, 2006

I am young, I am 26 years old and I have been in IT only 2 years now. I do have my BS degree though. The more education I have, the more I realize how much I DO NOT know. I am happy to learn as much as I can as fast I can.

No one knows everything. It is terrible that those young people have this attitude (as if playing World of Warcraft was an employable skill).

by mgtucker Nov 5, 2006

Company executives and other users complained about dealing with the programmers when the only computers were mainframes. That arrogance (demonstrated by those "experienced" guys in this conversation) gave birth to mini-computers. The arrogance of those programmer/operators gave birth to micro-computers.

Usually, we complain about what other people demonstrate we secretly hate about ourselves.

If my job can be attempted by a junior who will work for $12.50 per hour, it can be attempted by an Indian in Coimbatore, India for $4.12 per hour. RDC works just as well from another continent.

If one is so smart and capable, one might find it more rewarding to develop the next "killer app" instead of finding "fault". A Google search for "only small minds" found 519 hits so draw your own conclusions.

The first 20 years of any new "breakthrough" is always the "golden years". Telephones, radio, television, microcomputer (1981+/-).

by weegeordie Nov 5, 2006

There is lots of harm letting anyone other than the tech who is paid to do the job work on a system. Is the user following the same standards as the tech department? Has he communicated the issue and work done to resolve the problem to the tech department? How are they tracking problem trends, fix status, upgrade plans, etc? Who is doing the graphics work?

by jdclyde Nov 5, 2006

your looking in the wrong place. (you thought there was going to be an insult there, didn't you?)

Stop and re-read both my last post and the one I responded to. He took a job NOT as a tech, but a Graphic Artist. THAT is what his boss wants him to do because THAT is what his boss is PAYING him for. How is that rude or "not-thought-out", to point our the obvious?

Boss? Not I. I DO know what my duties are and what is expected out of me. I also know that if I don't do what is expected out of me, I will be replaced.

If he wants to play Net Adimin, he should apply for the job.

Do you have a mechanic that you always trust to work on your car, or do you just take it to whoever has a sale on, or the first one you run across?

How many times have people here had to RE-fix computer problems because a user that plays with computers decides he is going to FIX a system? He makes a change to "optimise", but is not aware that something is set that way for a reason, and all of a sudden an application doesn't work or a system is now vulnerable to exploit.

Do your job. If you want to do something other than what you were hired to do, get a different job instead of complaining that people won't let you do something instead of your job. He can rant about it to get it off his chest, but his boss is not out of line by having him do HIS job.

by media-ted9 Nov 5, 2006

and this is the granddaddy of all buts: We're responding to the core article of people who know what they're doing being pushed around by a group of "Arrogant lil ... co workers".
The previous poster stated his position well enough that - given the situation as he expressed it - experienced ITs would generally agree with and not find offensive.

Case in point - albeit in a different arena: I know someone who - in their fifties - took out a membership in the local indoor swimming facility. Their first day disclosed that "life-guards" were flirting while several kids around 5-6 were floating into the center of the large (olympic size) pool. Nobody was watching them. This person headed to the Aquatics Director's office and raised the ceiling. As a result, this person was hired to help the director to retrain and force the lazy staff to do their job. Lives were at stake. There were, as it turned out, some lifeguards who had tried to get the dangerous ones in line, but your cry, "Do Your Job!" prevented them from properly doing the job needed and - again lives were/are at risk.

When I started at a certain business, it had been known that I had experience far beyond anyone else on that campus, so I was not hired until they were so helpless they were hiring anyone with a pulse.

I did my job. I did it well. I did it better than anyone else around me. When I tried to use methods to preserve my work and reduce the cost to the business, I was nearly fired.

I hope I don't need to get too gory about those in Nazi Germany Death camps who "did their job", do I?

The fault, stupidity, and loss of business is due to people who are ignorant and powerful imposing their stupidity on others more qualified than themselves. Later, they conveniently blame those who "did their job" for the mess and business suffers, customers suffer, workplace attitude suffers, and the downward spiral begins.

Once those morons build a quorum, neither you nor I can get into the position to make the needed difference, and ultimately everybody loses their job when the company folds. I know, I've been there.

But I should also tell you: I do what I'm told; I do only what I'm told; and I do nothing other than what I'm told now. I have a life outside of work, but can see that my fellow-workers do not. Sad.

Hi, What JC wants to mean is Production Environment. This is for factories or workshops where automated production machines are used.
But the term Production Ready is also understood as ready to deliver to the market arena. This last is not the intention of him.
Regards

HI! About Macs, I've to clarify I mean Media Contents Production (movies, graphics, animation...)
But about PLCs, do you know the European market? Siemens, Festo, Kl?ckner-M?eller, Philips, T?lemech?nique... They are going to Linux.
And if you consider the modern means, in micro-controllers (as ST-77 or Microchip's PICs) Linux is going the preferred environment for production and dessign tools.

How a psychologist may know if a person is a good tech?
When I was searching my first position, as air-navigation engineer, the person doing the selection process for CASA (one of the EADS/AirBus companies) said they have nothing to work with Avionics. Well, he said me this two times. By the moment, CASA was involved in the dessign of the CN-235 mid-range aircraft, the Nav-Com satellite set, and the A-330 aircraft, among other programs. They had two Cray Main frame, a network of midi-comps with a hundred VT-100 work-stations, and a department for avionic dessign in other site. Why they should need an electronic related engineer? (That was what the psychologist said).
Normally, when the company has more than 50 employees, the HR deparment, or the consultancy company that makes the selection, knows very little about the work the copany needs to cover. And nothing about the actual skills the position requires. They just can't understand the matter.

by media-ted9 Nov 5, 2006

probably because they made such moody droids.

(Sorry, but my funny bone took over my arm and attacked the keyboard.)

In a recent survey in England, an agency (I don't remember its name)stated that the 75% of the children in the range of less than 5 years had sent at least one e-mail, and used to navigate Internet. I don't know if things have changed so long, but when I was 5, I scantily read a few letters, and wrote none. But papers and TV news are frequently bluffing about the easy knowledge the children have about computing, while their parents can't understand them. The next generation is coming with the feeling and the conviction that they actually are somewhat genious, just because they are young. And they learn nothing about responsibility, effort, and work. This is the world our informed society is doing.
How many boys and girls choose a career on real science today? A complete program on real technology? Here in Spain we have more schools for IT, than for Medicine or classical engineering. Only in Madrid there are 13 official schools, and around 15 private centres. But only two for Medicine. Think on it as in NewMexico or Texas (the size is somewhat close) were more than 100 universities titulating on that.

by katokato Nov 5, 2006

I think it is even tougher if you are a "gal" and your team is full of jerks. Imagine sitting in a dev group meeting with five guys and all are going f*** this and f*** that, including director of department. Could i have asked to quit swearing, i am offended?

I did try flattery but i will definately be more direct and on the spot to respond to their first rude comments next time (on my next job).

by jdclyde Nov 5, 2006

there isn't a lot that you can do but walk away, tolerate it, or file a lawsuit.

Walking away is in my opinion the best choice, as tolerating it puts you in a situation you shouldn't have to deal with.

Lawsuits are costly, and the burden of proof is completely on you, and if it is just your word vs theirs, you will lose. It can be expensive and take years, all the while putting a big target on your back, as well as making the next employer think twice about hiring you.

I would personally be reluctant to hire anyone who had sued a previous employer.

I got rid of my "shop talk" when I got into the computer field, but work with several people that are not above using language like that. As long as my kids are not in the office, I ignore it.

by pcrx_greg Nov 5, 2006

If your coworkers are using objectionable language, it is up to you to politely tell them that they are offending you. If you do this politely and ask if they would refrain from using that type of language, then the onus (morally and legally) falls upon them to comply with your wishes. The next step if this doesn't work, is to schedule a meeting with both your boss and his boss to discuss the problem. This puts everyone on notice that the problem needs to be dealt with immediately. Also document every discussion that you have with anyone in the company in regards to the problem. There is no reason that you have to put up with such boorish behavior, and any saavy business owner or executive knows the possible consequences of what is commonly deemed as harrasment. If in the end you feel the only solution is to quit, then you will have documentation when you go for unemployment hearings or any legal proceedings you wish to pursue.

by media-ted9 Nov 6, 2006

is that these noisy boobs have nothing other or better on their minds or in their vocabularies.

As a man, I am not considered in a position to take offense as much as a lady. As a lady, you can - sometimes - command respect with your body-language alone; but,

Why bother? The obvious here is that you're in a pack of stupids, and there is no way you're going to develop this mob into an intelligent team of anything. Even as a guy, I'd do what I could to keep from growing postal while I began circulating applications elsewhere.

"Reason for leaving?"; "am seeking a place where ideas and quality are constantly developing" - not "I just couldn't stand a room full of potty-mouthed fools pretending to be intelligent elitists".

Staying, in my experience will only result in your increasing bitterness and negatively affecting your expectations elsewhere. Exit in an orderly manner so all can escape to safety - and, perhaps, a better life.

Always be a Lady (Lady is the fem. of Lord = one who is in a position of autonomy and control). Always.

by tcbw Nov 5, 2006

Your story reminded me of an old joke I was told that (unfortuantely) I believe states the painfull truth about the sales force in general within the industry.

What is the difference between a secondhand car salesman and an IT sales person?

The secondhand car salesman knows when he's lying!

(I know it is a generalisation but . . . .

by drdosus Nov 6, 2006

When we allowed Micro$oft to dummy down the MCSE program also, we (the technical community, that is) allowed the MCSE 'boot camps' to survive.
Between the poor corporate attitude and Microsoft's toilet-paper MCSE "certifications", we have a bunch of Windows babies who know nothing of the basic operations in a computer.
But they're cheap.

You get what you pay for.

by kd5mid Nov 6, 2006

That is interesting that there are DELL sales people walking around banks and then for you to run into him again....That is amazing....That guy must really get around.

by hal 9000 Nov 6, 2006

Between the bank and my car so when I was going to the bank to pay for something that I had bought for a customer on E-Bay I got hit by him initially. After extracting myself I went to the bank and when I was returning to my car I got hit again by the same person.

The next day I was doing some work at the same Mall in one of the shops and because then I'm considered as Staff I have to park in a certain area and the Dell stand was again between when I parked and where I needed to go. :(

Generally I can go months without going near this horrible place but on this occasion 2 visits in 2 days was pushing the limits more than a bit. :(

Col

by mollenhourb9 Nov 6, 2006

Yes.

by shelli_2005 Nov 6, 2006

but I worked my a$$ off for my MSCE thank you very much!
Not all of us cheat and use brain dumps and stuff.I know there are a butt-load of "paper MCSE's" out there but I don't consider myself one of them and I don't appreciate you calling the all the hours I spent building my practice lab and staying up half the night studying "tripe". NOT to mention the money I invested.I did it on my own no help from my company to prove it to myself that I could do it.
As it turns out alot of what I learned during study I have used at work.
Not to mention the satisfaction of giving myself a challenge and knowing that I succeeded by hard work and perseverence .

by obviator Nov 6, 2006

i recieved my degree in computer science last year, after 25 years mucking about with computers. The degree says i really DO know what i've been doing. During my sojourn in academia i earned a reputation as a charter member of the ABM club (not that i carry a card) largely because i kept trying to convince people that had never seen a command line how much power there is in it and how limiting a GUI really is. Why should any machine, particularly a server, spend all its horsepower painting pretty pictures on the screen when it would be a far better use of its power to show a command line and use that power where it belongs.

Needless to say i didn't get very far in this approach. Most of the kids just couldn't comprehend anything beyond a GUI. i have to believe that computer teching is the next McDonalds.

by tony k Nov 6, 2006

Thanks to offshoring, a lot of these entry-level positions have gone away. That raises the barrier to entry for the noobs and should increase the quality of the people who start filtering their way in over the next few years. There are many who oppose offshoring in IT, but I LOVE it for every reason mentioned in the original post. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

by now left tr Nov 6, 2006

They exist as well, just as much as the young ones. They think they know it all and are not open to new ideas or change.

Just showing the other side of the coin, nothing else.

by media-ted9 Nov 6, 2006

As Mr. Hundert put it in, "Emperor's Club": "Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever."

Arrogant Old co-workers are nothing more than lil co-workers aged in their own stupor. That sets the platform for us acknowledging and considering the broad spectrum of arrogance. Like "Chicken-Man" they're everywhere, and like Sixth Senseless "They see only what they want to see; they do not know they are stupid".

Thanks. I guess we all needed that. I know it helped me. It's true, it's most annoying, it's ubiquitous, and it's never-ending. We should not dump on the inexperienced exclusively.

I love the living clich?: "Never argue with a fool; he will drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience".

Your coin is well-taken.

by jdclyde Nov 6, 2006

I am not sure where the line is drawn.

If the language is not used in a sexual context, then there is no sexual harrassment.

If the language is not aimed at someone, such as "F##k YOU!", then it is not hostile.

If someone is just an uncultured weasle with a potty mouth, a REASONABLE person might see you as having only a limited say in the matter.

Remember, to not be insulted is NOT a constitutionally protected right.

It does sicken me the people that think this is jackpot time and thing because they have their feelings hurt they should be made rich by the courts.

But not being there, it is impossible to make distinctions.

Good luck either way.

by media-ted9 Nov 6, 2006

... but beware; you may also become so proficient and thoughtful that the combination of holey OS'es and programs, coupled with ignorant demands on the part of your bosses/clients can and will take all the joy out of your dedication to learn. Don't laugh and don't take offense. It just happens, and the harder you try, the more frustrated you become.

Keep your day job, but look for hobbies that can pay when you need some time and space.

... Been there, done that, but come back because my drive to learn won't let me quit completely.

Mazel Tov!

by tony k Nov 6, 2006

..not spending any time learning how to administer Windows boxes because they're too good for that. Then they wonder why they can't find a job and just assume that MS is pushing their products on people.

Here's a clue to the opensourcers: we've tried it, we're not impressed.

by hal 9000 Nov 6, 2006

Doesn't meant that is true industry wide, it just means that in your particular case they didn't suit your needs.

I can take you to other places where Windows are great on the desktop for the non production side of things but would mean death to the company if required to be installed onto everything that they are running.

Windows Server products are very limited in Scalability and for that reason only suit small server's and maybe even a smallish cluster but the moment that you start looking at the more robust blades and high end servers Windows doesn't stand a chance because it's just not scalable enough for these machines. Currently the Server Applications from MS will run 4 CPU's fairly well or 1 Dual Core with HTT but the moment you start to move beyond that very limited point things start to get very expensive and nasty if you are trying to maintain Windows. Try to imagine for a minute the costs involved in licensing 2003 ES on a 2,000 CPU Blade that you are leasing by the CPU.

The costs of the MS license would make the cost of the hardware pale into insignificance. So because you don't use something like this doesn't mean that other OS's are no good it just means that they don't suit your needs and knowledge set. [b]Nothing More & Nothing Less.[/b]

Col

by jamesrl Nov 6, 2006

It is far from certain that Macs will not work for engineering jobs.

I have seen with my own eyes a Mac controlling the fuel rods at a nuclear reactor. (Guess which one and I will buy you dinner).

I also am aware that Macs used to be heavily used at Boeing and other engineering companies, and that National Instruments used to make a data capture card for the Mac along with a tool kit.

In the late 80s, I saw many examples of Macs outpacing PCs in some CAD areas.

I'm not up to speed with the latest developments, but surely you can use the facility of a Mac to run unix apps to run production control equipment.

James

by jordanwaggoner Nov 6, 2006

Looks like the same rabid salesman followed you into the forums....

by maeseralf Nov 6, 2006

Sorry, but I can't post following your path.
You are right, specially for Macs at the old 80-90. I have a MiniMac working all the day as my intranet server, and it goes perfect. In the first times (along the 70s) it was the Apple I and II the king in the tech domain. I can remember a 3D input device to capture spatial bodies, as a periferal for the Apple II, and it was so near to now, as in the 83. (If you want, I can recall the article for you). To go beyond Apple's power, you had to go to a HP Fourier or the PDP-11, or greater.
Then they got the "Lisa" (poor girl!), I don't know why it was not sucessful on the bussines. And the great MacHintosh SI. Along the eighties, Mac was built around the Motorola 68030, so it was the only personal computer capable of driveing a VMX bus center, and the first multi-thread/multi-task personal computer. I know very well NI, and they have been with the Mac from the first time, many time before they produce the LabView for the PC.
Today it is not so great for this, and I'm not so sure with the new Intel stations, to confide them an engineering environment. But they were so good on CAD and image manipulation, that the Media industry went quickly to use them in content creation and press edition. Do you remember how much time it took to get the QuarkXpress professional publishing on PC? So, the money rules, and Apple turns their efforts to that field, neglecting the engineering domain. OS X is a great OS, but it is so over loaded with funny graphic interface, that results a real nightmare for Real Time operations.
But you are also right with generalization. I remember the old motto: "Every absolute statement, even this one, is false!" It comes from Bertrand Russell.
In my post, I was only trying to be polite and diplomatic.
Regards

by katokato Nov 6, 2006

yeah! i could have but i was so surprised when our director of our it department was using the same language. who do i go complain? being few two weeks old in the company, i really didn't know what to do, But to quit.

But thanks guys, for great suggestions and support.

by katokato Nov 6, 2006

ur right. they all are bunch of STUPIDS.it was not a place worth staying. next time if some peers start garbage talk with me,i will handle him more sternly or pack my bags and send in resignation as i did last week.

good suggestion for leaving.

by shellbot Nov 7, 2006

any reason why people who play WoW are missing a few cans?

you ever played it?

Ok, there's more than a few nuts playing, but a whole load of us regualar folk as well, just trying to unwind after a hard days work

by tony k Nov 7, 2006

First of all, the Unix world is your bane if you want to talk licensing per CPU. MS licenses by the socket, not core. Most Unices license by the core, virtual or otherwise. Yes, no licensing costs for Linux.

Secondly, Windows on the desktop for non-production? Huh, and here I never knew those 13,000 desktops we have were for testing only.

Finally, I better let my boss know that those 8, 16 and 32-way servers we have running Windows 2003 Server are going to crash soon. I'll let him know that just because they haven't ever shouldn't be taken as an indicator, I guess. Some unix guy told me they will, so they must be ready to fail 'cause if it's one thing a Unix guy knows...it's modern technology.

Not.

Perhaps you should reread the original post that started this thread?

by hal 9000 Nov 7, 2006

They are much more crackly and I can eat them all day. :p

[i]First of all, the Unix world is your bane if you want to talk licensing per CPU. MS licenses by the socket, not core. Most Unices license by the core, virtual or otherwise. Yes, no licensing costs for Linux.[/i]

Yes I agree I wouldn't consider Unix either now but there are plenty of products out there which don't cost an arm and a Leg to use on a medium blade. Currently I support one place that does CG work for the movies and there isn't one Windows install in the entire work environment. Those Boxes and that part of the LAN is left to the non production side of the business who are virtually hangers on to the ones who bring in the money.

[i]Secondly, Windows on the desktop for non-production? Huh, and here I never knew those 13,000 desktops we have were for testing only.[/i]

Granted I'm not quite sure of what you mean here but if you are referring to glorified Data Entry desktops then they really are not production boxes they are Data Entry Points that then allow some other people to work off the data entered I suppose it depends on the business involved but places like Insurance companies and Banks only involve Data Entry and no real production work. So maybe we are looking at things from different areas.

[i]Finally, I better let my boss know that those 8, 16 and 32-way servers we have running Windows 2003 Server are going to crash soon.[/i]

No small clusters like that will work OK even if there are some large licensing costs involved. Perhaps you would like to point out exactly where I said that they wouldn't work? What I did say was that a medium 2,000 CPU setup wouldn't be at all happy with 2003 and I never compared one of these units to the small units that you appear to be using. If MS makes you happy you're welcome to use it for your needs I just pointed out that it doesn't suit every need just because it suits your needs. Just like I didn't say that Unix or Linux or BSD was the answer to everything you have to use the right tool for the job in hand and the skill set of those maintaining them.

Unfortunately you where the one who was insisting that Linux/Unix was no good because it didn't suit your needs therefore MS was by definition the better product.

It may be in your case but you can not them transpose that finding over to everything else in the IT Industry just because 1 option suits your Needs & Skill Set can not imply that it will suit everyone else's needs & skill set. What you think of as Big & expensive others may think of as small and nothing more than a toy and until you have worked in different areas of IT you can not make a blanket statement like the one that you originally made.

So M$ suits your needs [b]GREAT![/b] Just don't try to push your solution onto others who can not be supported by the same offerings.

Col

by drowningnotwaving Nov 7, 2006

I've got an honours degree in Computing Science. When I did my industrial year (as part of the degree) I worked in the finance department of IBM installing PCs and teaching people how to use them. It was '84. The XT and the AT were just coming out.

People hated salesmen.

"They don't have to work too hard".
"They drive fast cars".
"They get expense budgets".
"They get to invite clients to golf, sporting events, heck even the ballet".
"They get paid too much in commission".
"They get overseas trips all expenses paid".
"They don't have to know anything at all 'cos the engineers are the ones that have to do the hard work".

Clearly they are just bludging bas-tards.

I haven't touched a computer in anger since I completed my degree. I had a letter offering me a job as a trainee sales person for IBM even before I went back to complete my final year in uni. Didn't even have to study hard that year - from memory, seven subjects, seven passes and an average of 52% grade.

And I found all of the above to be true.

And it's great. Pass me another Moet please. Did I say "please"? I meant "now".

So, spannerheads and wing-nuts, come on, do your worst...

I would have been the one getting the sales and handing you the order to process for your commission.

Whenever a Sales Person got involved in a sale that one of my staff hadn't tied up completely we had a total mess to sort out and always without a doubt had the wrong hardware sold for the job at hand.

I didn't mind not getting the commissions but I did object to trying to fix messes that had been made by people who should have known better.

Col

by jamesrl Nov 8, 2006

My team reviews contracts before they are sent to the client to approve, but often thats too late to make major changes.

Whats worse is when the client demands changes, the salesperson agrees and we don't receive the changed contract back to review.

My team spends a great amount of time sorting these things out.

James

by maeseralf Nov 8, 2006

I remember one guy from Canon. He sold 2000 CanonFax units to one branch of our army, assuring they could be wired to their radio communications system. By the season I was working at Lanier as responsible of the Fax techs group. One of our sales person came with me asking my help. We had two devices able to work with four-wire lines in idle mode (not power in the line). We fix some devices to work in fishing ships. Well, the Canon machine couldn't work that way, as it was only for normal lines, even with no external interface as RS-232. Our machines, all, had two ports, one DTE and one DCE to work with Crypto devices, or as stand alone scaner and printer. But the buyer and the seller didn't work in the unit with the techs. That was a deal from the Headquarter offices, with Canon. When I tried to get our device working, it was impossible to me get the information I needed, as it was confidential. Conclusion: 2000 normal fax machines in the store. The unit working by the traditional means, and we with the suitable device in our hands.

by tolbertae Nov 8, 2006

Unfortunately, we do have to admit that the younger crowd grew up with the PC in thier environment. Not like my generation, where we thought that the TRS-80 was going to save the world.

I remember the days of "BIG" raises for being a"Help Desk" analyst. Even now with Network and LAN Administration become easier that almost any monkey can do it. Now, it is time for us "older" techies to move to a more lucrative field like "Information Assurance" and Network Security. With our "seasoned" expirience we should do fine.

It is time to pass the torch to the younger generation to do this lower form of work in the IT field, we just have to manage and train them to use the "paper" and go outside when needed.

It wasn't for the job but something that you wanted to do and the fact that you worked for it makes it that much better in your eyes.

But honestly how many have you seen walk in and wave a bit of paper around and expect the world to fall at their feet?

Now for the down side of MSCE's they only teach you part of the IT infrastructure as they are devoted to M$ Product at the expense of everything else aren't they?

There are some places where any MS Cert is as useful as [b]Teats on a Bull[/b] and others where they can be very useful.

Unfortunately they teach you to think in a narrow view of the IT world and fail to give you the diverse rich work environment that is really available to all IT professionals if they go look.

Don't get me wrong I think more power to you but you also have to realise that there where computers before M$ and they will be there after M$ is forgotten. If you tie yourself to just one technology there is an awful lot of hard work catching up you'll have to do when things start to change.

Col

by maeseralf Nov 12, 2006

To say that you need an MSCE to become an expert in computing, is like to ask a physician for diplomas granted by Pharmaceutical companies. What an MSCE grants is you agree with the terms a company decide the market to be. But I don't know any MSCE that knows the half I know about computing. They may be proficient in OFFicce, or in Windows, but I was testing the first beta version of the NT, and nobody knew then what MSC meant. And I use WordPerfect, as no other suite gives me such power. Do you know any MSCE whom may use WP X3 proficiently? I am with OFFicce 2000, even I teach it. I have an official diploma from an University, and eXPerience, that's all you need to be an expert on everything.

by hal 9000 Nov 13, 2006

X = the unknown quantity and spurt is a [b]Drip Under Pressure.[/b]

Actually I agree any form of Industry standard certification is worthless if it only teaches one side of the business no matter what that may be. I thought that I said that above as well. Great for M$ but hopeless for the real world.

This was brought home to me the other day when I was on a tele conference about business and one of the other people involved said we only use M$ product as we are a M$ Small Business specialist. All I had asked is would this program that was being shown interface with Apache as well as Exchange. Seems that no one actually knew what Apache was and where horrified when I mentioned a non M$ product as a possible offering to the Small Business world.

Of course the bad side of this is that with attitudes like this being so prevalent in the Small Business IT Sector I'm not going to be able to retire for a very long time to come. At least I suppose that I know that I have Job Security for a very long time to come. :)

Col

by x-marcap Nov 8, 2006

I remember making 4 bit adders with transistors.

I am really old...

by maeseralf Nov 8, 2006

The problem with Open Software is their speed of change. It is not bad (but don't think it is cheap, as it is Open), and it remembers me the old times with the CP/M. But just when you think you are up-to-date, another version is coming to your bed. It is like a bad marriage.
I like Firefox brouser, it is fine and plenty of features; and it is free. But when it starts, every two or three days, it announces me with the "New Version available" flag. Normally I accept, but it means you get a new item to know almost twice a week. Impossible to get updated on everything you must know in the O.S.I. realms to be a "guru" of it. Not for one person only knowledge.

We are [b]Lean & Mean[/b] and can switch track at the drop of a pin to meet the changing demands of new technology.

Now they are the giant that takes years to start to address changes in technology and can only come out with a new system when the next new technology is already in the pipeline.

Open Source can combat this situation much faster and better so they currently have completely working 64 Bit Software solutions. M$ on the other hand are still pushing 32 Bit software and saying that 64 Bit Software is a pipe dream at the moment though to be fair their new Exchange will be a 64 Bit application to run on Server 2003 64 but I'm just not sure how many drivers they will have available for that system when it's launched.

Windows 95 was the first 32 Bit software system that M$ had and now M$ is touting the release of Vista & Office 2007 as the next big thing that is comparable to the release of 95. But they are still pushing the 32 Bit version and the 64 Bit version will become useful latter. Well at least that is what they said last night at the pre Product Launch for System builders.

Intel announced a few weeks ago that they where currently developing the Quad Core CPU's that will have the ability to run 128 Bit software. Now I really don't attempt to be mean here but what software dose M$ currently or in the near future have available that will be able to use the full benefits of the currently available hardware something like a Dual Core with HTT? Both Intel & AMD have these CPU's now and they have been around for a while in computer terms but the major Desktop supplier of software doesn't have any software to run reliably or usefully on these. So what am I missing here?

Col

We knew the customer and exactly what was needed and locked up the hardware to suit their needs & demands. But being a lowly Techs we where not considered as Sales People so we had to pass the sale on to one of the sales people that we had tamed. Which meant that they only did the paper work for the commission and none of the hard work.

Like who's ever heard of a Tech selling a complete new system to a client back in those days it just couldn't happen. :D But you always knew exactly where you stood with [b]Big Blue[/b] even if someone else was getting the credit for your work it was at least getting done properly.

The big problems always came about because some sales person had visited a non client and sold them up to IBM from something else which didn't work as expected. Of course the sales people would look at what was currently in stock with what they considered as large numbers and cheap and sell that as apposed to what was really required. I personally think that it was because of these people that the saying [b]No One ever got fired for buying IBM[/b] started. :D

Unfortunately my staff didn't get involved till after the fitters had installed the new hardware and then we had to attempt to make it work. I'm fairly sure you know the procedure once this situation has been reached. :^0

Col

by maeseralf Nov 8, 2006

You've said it. Modern world is pure marketing and triviality matter. As an example on how the things are going, I teach guys that haven't finished the primary school to get a job as low tech fellas. I try to learn they how to be a proficient electrician. Instead of learning the foundations of electricity, they go straight to ask "how I place the wires in the wall?" How I do a trench?"
The actual success of Microsoft is written in the Apocalypse; to get all the world thinking that we can't live without Windows and Office. And I have to see how people is using Excell to write a single table of text, and ask to learn Access, when they only know single arithmethic, to compose form sheets for an application, or a resume.
Meanwhile, you can see misspelling in word documents from them.
They think all is possible, just because they can imagine! Sound this familiar, as being readed in classic literature?

http://tinyurl.com/y3ljdn

Here is one that I'm sure that all us old Fogeys would agree upon. :p

Col ]:)

by media-ted9 Nov 8, 2006

but I've moved to an older HP and IE7 won't let TR take my responses.

I can't see how it can just be me that can't make M$ crap work right.

Otherwise, those were a great post.

... Ok, I got it to work with FireFox, so I guess I'll just shut down IE7. Another M$ crock. It's so frustrating that M$ cannot produce a reliable product, but can spend billions on rhetoric and moronic slogans; maybe they should cross-train their ad writers.

Anyway. I have seen some of the error messages, but the poor little mouse was hilarious!

by tony k Nov 9, 2006

Since when is Open Source software "lean & mean"? Oh, that's right, when you remove all the functionality. You want an OS that's fast, fast, fast, you can have it with Linux...if you disable KDE & Gnome and everything else that makes up a modern OS. Strip it down to a console and it SCREAMS. Doesn't do much, but it SCREAMS.

(And, to qualify from your other reply to mine: great, you can run your OS on a 2000 CPU box. Fantastic, that's the kind of thing that's going to be common. MS writes their software to account for the needs of 90% of people and businesses. You're doing something outside that range, you're on your own.)

64-bit!! 64-bit!! 64-bit!! I'm glad you're so hell-bent on 64-bit!! I have few machines that I need to have a 64-bit OS. The performance gains are minimal, it's main purpose is to provide more memory and I don't have much need for more than 4G. So, rants about the beauty and necessity of 64-bit!! fall on deaf ears.

Oh, and BTW, so they shouldn't offer a 32-bit version of Office? Force everyone to go 64-bit!! immediately? Buy a new machine just for the new office suite? You do realize that their OS is on millions and millions of computers, so they can't just jump light years into the future, right? Open source has a little advantage there because the population is a fraction of a percentage and it's all computer dorks running it.

When will MS release 128-bit!!!! capable software? Easy answer: when it's needed. Software isn't about running on the latest and greatest hardware, it's about filling a need for endusers. What you're missing is reality.

by hal 9000 Nov 9, 2006

M$ new version of Exchange is a 64 Bit version? As you don't see the need for 64 Bit applications or software it's a waste of time and effort right?

I'm assuming that you will not want to use this so you have more and bigger mail boxes available to you than the previous 32 it version could supply right?

The point is that 64 Bit CPU are now the Norm and not the exception so why are we paying for something and then using less than 100% of it's capability? It's like buying a F1 motor and then disconnecting half the Spark Plug Leads because we don't need the power produced by the thing.

MS was the first to 32 Bit with the release of Windows 95 and now that they have grown so big they are now unable to master what they where capable of doing a decade ago.

Incidentally at the M$ Vista & Office Pre Release Launch the night before last here they where insisting that when Vista & office 2007 are released that it will be bigger than 95. Besides a lot of OEM builders getting reported for supplying Pirate Software at M$ behest I personally can not see that people will be camping out in front of stores waiting to be one of the first to get a copy of Vista. Do you?

I think that maybe you should pay a visit to some of the trade shows and look at what is available. Drop into the IBM stand and look at their Medium Blades why not break the bank and look at one of their big Blades where you can wet yourself with reality. These are in common use [b]NOW![/b] they are not something that is going to come some time latter when You and M$ think that they are needed they are here now and in use now. Why do you think that M$ and SUSE have got together if it wasn't in M$ best interests they would never have accepted Novels offer.

OH also BTW M$ is insisting that with Vista & Office 2007 that they should only be supplied on new computers that exceed the minimum Vista Requirements. If I want to I can start selling these computers Now with XP and 2003 Office and sign up every customer to receive a copy of Vista and Office 2007 when they are released. But personally I'm not interested as I only service Small to Medium Business not Domestic Computer Users and when I sell them something I don't expect them to have to shell out for something more a few months latter to make it work even if it's only Postage & Handling of the new product I just don't see why I should be pushing that type of information onto M$ so that they can bypass me completely and strike up their own deals with [b]My Customers![/b] M$ instructions to Thor OEM System Builders is that Vista & Office 2007 are a great way to generate profits by selling new hardware to run these new products on. The pity is that we will be supplying hardware that is so far in excess of the needs of these programs that they are not being used to anywhere near their capacity and our customers are wasting their money.

As far as your description of a CLI Open Source Product Goes yes you're right it will fly along and with the necessary programs installed it will leave the existing M$ offerings groveling in the dirt where they currently belong. I've seen a general Dumbing Down of every IT related profession since Windows 95 was released and the trend is continuing and it's people like you who wonder why their jobs get [b]Out Sourced[/b] it's because IT is no longer offering the service to Business that it once did by increasing productivity with a reduction in costs. To achieve that cost reduction now the only alternative left to most companies is to Out Source their IT Section as they are actually the ones costing the companies the money now. When I started working with computers a small installation cost 20 Million $ and that could pay for itself in under a year now a normal office installation is several thousand $ and the cost of the Support is much higher so why do the companies still need their own IT Staff which are costing them more than the hardware that they are now looking after? Think on that my friend as that's how it is today.

If anyone needs a Lesson in [b]Reality[/b] it you my friend not me as I see these things every day and don't dream about what could be I know what is available [b]NOW![/b] Which is much more that you appear to be able to say. :D

Col

by tony k Nov 9, 2006

Sorry, I should've made my self clear...you were talking desktop OSes and software as was I. Of course there's a need in the server environment, if only to add more ram to run bigger and better applications. That being said, my organization which has 13k users has one 64-bit server and it's one I built as a test base to ensure drivers, etc were available. See, we have a team of Windows Engineers who know what they're doing, so we don't have to go run scrambling for the newest hardware just because it's out. We can provide more value to our company because, unlike the dwindling Unix guys, we'll stand them up a better environment for less money, in less time and with a fraction of a fraction of the problems they have on their side.

That being said, no, even with a couple of petabytes of mail, we're fine with 32-bit, thanks.

Finally, of course the CLI server stuff is faster, it doesn't do as much. I agree, the industry has dumbed down signficantly because it used to be filled with old-time Unix guys who couldn't keep up with the changing times. Windows came along, they had no idea how complex it was and screwed it all up. Then, in true adult fashion: blamed the OS manufacturer. "It's insecure!", they'd scream. Uh, did you bother securing it? "You can't!" Uh-huh. Here's your last check, thanks for playing.

Hi, HAL9000!
I agree with you almost every time, but you have an error here, Win95 was not the first 32b, UNIX was written for Mini-computers, years before a GUI were available to desktops. And you must know.
Other thing is I believe all these MS friends don't know about SUN blades, or large computing structures. Hey, guys! There is too much more on IT than fulfilling rosters or sending e-mail...
I remember the 70s, when the basics for Mini/Micro computing were built!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-970601sunscreen,0,4664776.column

Since when the data bus wide means more memory in the system? Do you know something about architecture? 64 bit architecture is the first step that here done in computing. Do you remember those funny MainFrames from IBM? COBOL needs 64b to be useful. Of course COBOL may be dead (I'm not so sure), but if you consider scientific computing, or real AI applications, they will work better on 64b.
Never minds! I agree with HAL9000 (do you know what that nick means?) If the hardware is upgraded to go 4 cores, and a computer's life cycle now is no more than 4 years, why MS is again going to a 32b system, which needs the most current hardware for the interface? It is only because Vista is now around five years delayed.
In the old 80/90, INTEL, MS and IBM were together in the same effort. But the same old story, MS and Intel are on the IBM lessons, and fighting to cope the market arena, not to serve the user.

by dawgit Nov 10, 2006

If someone were to drive into town right now with a truck load of a thousand 128 bit computers, with a 128 bit OS, it would be sold out in under 15 minutes. Gauranteed.
Who would use it? Is there a need? Is it necessary? Is it going to happen?
Yes.!. and if I had one right now, I would be useing it. NOW.!.

by maeseralf Nov 11, 2006

Just they only need a tour by the EuskalParty gallery over here, in the gallery section. Games are the most resorce demanding stuff in computing. Gamers ask for the last of the last, and they ever need more power to get satisfied. I remember the Flight simulator for the F-18, it was built around a Sel Gould 770, with 1 MiB RAM, and two Winchester totalling the hugh ammount of 10 MiB. And I mind a real simulator, with a cluster of ten 68032 subprocessors.

by shelli_2005 Nov 9, 2006

it just started in the last few weeks, I thought maybe it was the site

by tater salad Nov 9, 2006

this quote is often misattributed to Luhrmann, who set it to music, or Kurt Vonnegut. It was written by Mary Schmich for her column in the Chicago Tribune in 1997.

by media-ted9 Nov 9, 2006

I think it's the new generation getting wierd over cookies, but in IE7, there seems to be another crapout with Java. The controls say it's running, but this post says it's not, so I'm just clicking on my link in my Juno Mail then highlighting the address and ^C and opening FF2 and ^V and that works - - - for now.

It's a shame Juno won't let me configure to open in the browser of MY choice rather than theirs. Hear that UnitedOnLine? Get crackin' because M$ is going to lose you customers with their new crap.

Do you know Airis? They sell more stuff than Dell, and the same quality at least.

But I don't mean OSI is wrong!
I only reply why the "Open guys" are all the time on learning things that veterans don't understand. Also, "caveat entor", keep the business people out of your mind, because they make the technology from dictionaries. If you hear an ad (about everything) in the media, a Novel price seems to be a dummy, but if you test what they say... Well, you should can light a whole city with a single candle; that is all the science they know!
Regards

by hal 9000 Nov 10, 2006

That you can deflect an 8 inch Howitzer shell with a bit of tissue paper. :^0

Provided I'm not th one holding the tissue paper I'll gladly look on to see what happens and then listen to the explanations of [b]What went Wrong[/b] :p

Col ]:)

by dawgit Nov 10, 2006

Oh course you can 'Lite-up' a whole block with a candle. I've even seen it done. You just have to place the candle in just right spot under the right [....censered....] and you will lite it up. Of course it won't last too long, and the block will be gone, but it can be done. :D

by maeseralf Nov 11, 2006

But I fear not the meaning. I was speaking about energy levels. But you have placed a new point of view. They can flame the world around a new stone-wheel, and every people will be dazzled with it being the most advanced invention. Just so the power of marketing and media is.