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Microsoft browsers without Java in 2004 - now what?

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by hal_9000

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I am challenged with trying to set the footprint of tomorrows software version(s) in our company, but where do I turn to for valid input on tomorrows browser based technology?

When the legal impact of SUN vs. Microsoft hits us next year and Microsoft is forbidden to ship their Operating Systems with JVM in the browser how will the market react?

http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/

Will companies and customers then begin to treat Java as "just" another browser plugin that should be avoided at any cost?

More and more applications are becoming browser based and most e-banking systems are already using Java(Script) technology because it is safe.

There must be a lot of ISV's and customers out there totally relying on Browser/Java based solutions today.

How do we go about predicting/influencing the future impact of IE browsers without JVM?

Should we all just abandon the Java ship or will customers have the sense to stay with this technology?

How can I determine if we should abandon our (4 year old) choice of JavaScript technology and start from scratch with something else that will make a browser work without plugins?

Starting from scratch may set us so much back compared to competitors that we will loose milions.

21 replies

by jimhm

It's not that Microsoft isn't permitted - they must ship the Standard version of JVM not their bastardized version. They are permitted to add their extenstions - but not to remove stuff that others have added. As they had done before.

It is Microsofts idea of not shipping JVM with IE - that's fine ... Download it from Java and install it for free - active it for all browsers from the Setting - control panel ... and you are fine and ready to go ... We haven't seen a problem with MS not shipping JAVA ...

by hal_9000

Thanks for updating me on MS decision.

My biggest problem is however that if it is not in IE in a default installation - it is categorised as a plugin.

When selling software to a customer you want to avoid the hassle of getting their IT department involved if at all possible.

Imagine our sales person forced to say "our software is great and can do so and so....... and oh by the way your IT department has to install a browser plugin for your 30,000 employees world wide so you can use our software...." .

IT department would scream and say that now there is a hidden cost of millions$ because they have to roll out a plugin, update all corporate desktop builds, maintain it etc. etc.

This is why I have to find out:
- Will customers react like described in above scenario?
- Is JVM (what ever vendor it is from) already so accepted in browsers that it will be considered a necessary component once it is not a default part of Interet Explorer?
- Will IT departments treat JVM hostile in the future when it is no longer part of the browser?
- Should we scrap our chosen technology and start all over (18 months mega R&D job) that could risk us going out of business from sheer R&D cost?

by hal 9000

There is nothing preventing you from including the complete JVM plugin with your software so the IT department doesn't have more work to do when they install the "New" software. This would be one solution and only require a low level script change to include or you could go M$ way with .Net and rewrite the whole code. At least that way it will work with the new IE but may not work with previous versions of IE without the .Net plugin installed.

If I was faced with this problem I would personally go with the tried and proven technology and just include the JVM code with youre software and forget the .Net way as M$ solution.

by djent

Include a link to Mozilla suggesting it as a better browser. Also include a link to JAVA for those determined to use IE, holes and all.

by hal 9000

Isn't .Net susposed to be M$ answer to Java? I was under the impression that M$ had only introduced the .Net family after the court case which they lost and needed something to keep them in the game.

But perhaps you could link in a plugin into your script to allow the Java plugin to be downloaded before the end user can continue. This is one solution to the problem or you could rewrite all the code in the .Net format.

by fluxit

Marketplace arrogance cost Apple and numerous other information technology companies dearly. One would think that Sun would have learned from others. However, McNealy, Sun's CEO, is quite the arrogant character and a little brash at that.

It is impossible for one to separate his character from infusing into his works and this appears to be the case with Sun MicroSystems. I fear that unless McNealy cleans up his act then Sun may be headed down an undesirable path. Currently, I own a lot of stock in Sun and I may sell it off this year and take a loss.

I like Java and Javascript. I think that Sun should rethink thier position and cooperate more with Microsoft. I realize it will take a lot to change the culture at Sun. About two years ago I was on a flight and a Sun Sales Representative was next to me. I struck up a conversation about security knowing that Sun Unix was more secure than Microsoft products. The Sales Rep went nuts on me. He had this preconditioning to assault Microsoft at the mere mention of thier name. I could not talk to the guy for the rest of the flight. Let alone consider a Sun Product in the future since I had a hybrid network.

As for the browser's coding technology it appears that .net will become the defacto standard as my organization is going to that standard. There is some ColdFusion in use.

I imagine the transformation will be evolutionary as systems get upgraded newer sites will become something else and Sun's stock value continues to destabilize.

by deadly ernest

This is a tough call to make for many reasons. Many graphics artists involved in web design would not know a HTML code from a police code and design their sites with other programs that create the code. because they are really graphics artists and not coders they prefer fancier looking things with a 'who cares how big the file is' attitude. Thus many prefer Java as it allows the fancy stuff and the designer programs are simpler to use than coding. Thus a big push to jave from that side, and Sun pushing Java as well, and a few enterprise people are on the band wagon.

On the other side high security gateways usually do not permit Java as it is NOT always possible to scan the code at the front end anti-virus checking point. There is a real risk that malicious code can be imbedded and sent through within a Java file. Thus the use of Java can deny you access to certain markets in the e-commerce side, and that is where the majority of Java proponents are pushing their wheelbarrows, claiming Java is easier to sue than perl/cgi etc.

I have seen a business commission a whole website and the designers had finished it and then had to scrap and redo it. The majority of the client's customers were behind secure govt firewalls that did not allow Java and thus they only got to see a blank screen, great way to promote business.

Too often a web site with java has pages that can be several times bigger in size than well designed HTML equivalents and some people dont like having to pay the extra download because the web designer was too lazy to do it right.

The size fault is usually due to a Java designers preference to reload ALL the script for menus and banners than go to the trouble to learn how to do frames with Java. Lazy sloppy work means poor code and higher user costs. And some suers are no monitoring their downloads and complaining or blacklisting web sites with excessive sized pages.

Personally I would avoid Java but don't write it off as it has some big money behind and can be made to work right if they wish to make it do so. But it will also mean releasing a lot of code to make it as transparent as HTML for security checking of code.

by jimhm

JAVA is a more secure application development environment than DOT.NET... DOT.NET has already been hacked where Java has not..

I would disregard your assessment as basis...

MS a secure Envrionment - now that got me laughing this Monday morning ... thanks ..

by deadly ernest

Go back and read the post. I never said anything about DOT.NET being better or secure than Java, or otherwise.

I spoke about end user difficulties with Java due to the way it is being used. I know it can be used much better but the Java supporters tout the ease of use to create Java pages and never bother trying to train people to use it right.

I also spoke about the difficulty caused with some firewalls because it is NOT open code that is easily checked. Thus the basic security rule of 'If you can't check it, it isn't to be let in' applies and causes some troubles.

Everything that Java does was being done before it came on the scene, so it is NOT doing anything actually new, just differently and with a closed proprietary code.

Thus I feel safe in disregarding your assessment as garbage by a bigot who does not read what they are complaining about.

by hal_9000

Thanks for your input,
Our customers are using our product to create and deliver online simulation based traning, testing, and performance support (just-in-time-help) for their mission critical system implementations.
This for example means 30,000 end users worldwide are taking simulation based training at the same time.

We have a addressed the issue on security and good design to minimize file sizes a long time ago and are not facing any problems with that.

The challenge is that so far one of the biggest benefits compared to competition has been the "just a browser - no added software needed" statement. Now we risk ending up in the "inferior" class with most of the competing vendors.
This is why I am trying to assess what to do with our JavaScript engine.

So the question really boils down to:
"Will large companies be reluctant to install and support JavaScript in the browser in the future (when it is no longer a default component in the OS install)?"

by dwdino

If your customers are happy with your product, they look forward to giving input on its future.

In your shoes, I would approach your clients and educate them on the coming scenario. After they are informed, present them with several road maps and ask them for comments. If they state they will continue with Java plugins in the future, there is your answer. If they are interested in .net there is your answer.

Also, by allowing your customers to have input on the course of the company you will draw them in and create a long term partnership. That will draw you BIG cudos.

Good luck.

by jimhm

I would venture a guess that 100% or almost 100% already have the Java plug-in installed to support other internet sites and applications.

I would just specify on the requirements - Java enable plug-in. (version X.X.X or greater).

Another way to handle it - is change you appletts from Client side to server side - then they will not need to worry ...

by deadly ernest

I do not doubt that some will see Java as being too much trouble, other will want to continue using it. This is very mych a field of 'I want to stay with what I know than be concerned with what is best'.

Much of where things go will depend upon techs educating the people making the money decisions. Thus an important aspect will be 'How much more does it cost to incorporate this properly into a roll out, and how much more to maintain.'

This is VERY important because the main reason that many corporations stick with MS software is convenience; they like the install and forget option regardless of how much trouble that causes the techs.

I think that 10 years time will see Java as a boutique application used by some small diehards unless there are major changes in its use and it is made public domain and open code.

by hal_9000

Thanks for your input,
The whole point is that we do not deliver end user software to be installed - our solution is a development package (installed and used by a few authors/programmers) and the end user output they create is compiled into HTML + JavaScript that will run of a standard Netscape or IE browser (version 4+ for both).

So the difference is huge for our customers as their end user format (potentially) reaches all employees world wide.

by lordinfidel

i was following this thread....

You do know they are 2 different things....

Sun's Java and JavaScript are not the same thing. IE will/should always support JavaScript.

MS currently ships the Java Virtual Machine with IE, which as JimH stated, is not the real Java plugin. It is M$'s hack of Sun's Java.

But nothing is stopping anyone from downloading and installing the Java plug-in directly from Sun.

If you need JavaScript support, then it is already enabled in IE. There is a way to disable Scripting support in IE, hence disabling JavaScript.

by hal_9000

Our end user format is based on a compiled Appletplayer running .jar files (the jar file is the interactive simulation product). This requires that JVM or SUN JRE is installed and activated in the browser. (JavaScript)

In less than 6 months JVM will no longer be shipped with any MS OS and that means that the next major OS released by MS will gives us a head ache.

Customers always refuse to install anything if it can be avoided (competition plays an important role here) so we need to figure out how our future customers will react to this.....

Will they reject our solutions because it requires more than just the browser?

by hal_9000

Thanks for a great input,
I have already plans for approaching our user group and selected customers like you suggest.

So I am confident that I can cover existing customer base but our future growth lies with new customer sales.

The biggest worry for me is that I can not ask my future customers. I need to look into the IT crystal ball (hence this posting) to "guesstimate" how they will react to this.

by hal 9000

Will install the Java plugin just to save the problems with not having it already installed. I can just imange the end used calling their Tech Support section complaining that their new computer isn't working because a web page that they could previously see is no longer viewable on their new computer supplied in March 2004.

The end users will not accept this and the IT departments will be unwilling to continually send out staff to install the Java Plugin just because it is neded by most of the existing web pages.

However you could perhaps include a hyperlink to the Java Plugin with the message that if thsi application doesn't run then the Java Plugin is needed and is abtainable from where ever. Or for an understatment provide the script the this application is best viewed with the Java Script Plugin at the very beginning like some of the older Web SItes used to have when telling their visitors that this site was best viewed in IE5 or above.

by lordinfidel

You will find most IT dept's are more apt to install Sun's JRE then AOL's IM.

Yours is not the only app that uses JRE, so I would not be to worried about that.

Also, Sun does have a SDK that you can download and develop your own JRE package, if you want to include it in your app.

I was just checking whether or not you were talking about Java or JavaScripting, the 2 were being intermingled and they are 2 distinct and seperate areas.

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