The Evolution Truth

It's a wonderfully fictional tale, the kind very often experienced by those under the heavy influence of drugs. The French composer, Berlioz, smoked opium, and the result was his Fantastic Symphony. So if he could do it, undoubtedly John could do it too, the result being Revelations.

But seriously, I didn't know that. Thanks for the enlightenment.

When Aussieland went metric between 1966 and 1970, we were told we would be using the Celsius method for temperatures from then on in.

"C", of course, could mean either Celsius or Centigrade, but it's nice to know there's a whisper of a difference after all!

The only other system of which I'm aware is K -- Kelvin, for absolute temperature. When first learning about it, during my years studying astronomy and cosmology, we were simply told that it "was the same" as Celsius or Centigrade, except zero began at absolute zero, and had nothing to do with the freezing or boiling points of water.

Now, having read what you have to say about the two, I'm beginning to have my doubts. I'll look around on the net if you like, but if you already know the answer, deepsand, please tell me: is temperature Kelvin aligned to Celsius or Centigrade, or doesn't it matter?

G

PS: I'm not being fascetious, and I'm sorry to have introduced a serious note into this light-hearted thread, but my curiosity's yelling at me again. Thanks!

It's been a long time since I've had to study this but from memory 0K is somewhere around -275 Celsius and is considered as Absolute Zero where even electrons are unable to move. There is no possible lower temperature but the -275 is a bit fuzzy however it should be somewhere around that figure.

K just like C works from the freezing point to a boiling point but there is a much greater range in tempeturates so from that prospective it is similar to Celsius but only on a very vague way. If I remember correctly the highest temp in K is the boiling point where the heaviest metal turns into steam if you can call atomized U235 steam. But 0 K is as cold as it can get and the upper limit of K is as hot as it is possible to obtain.

Otherwise there are no similarities between the two measuring systems. One Celsius is a measurable system and Kelvin is a Hypothesized measuring system as there is currently no way to actually define 0 K as we lack the ability to actually produce this temperature although it has been extrapolated out to the mathematical figure it remains a untested Hypothesis still.

Col ]:)

I've seen the triple point of water quoted as 0.01 but always in degrees Celsius and we were always taught that "Centigrade" was just not used in science. Degrees "Celsius" and "Centigrade" are identical and inbterchangable (no subtlety at all). It's just that the lower referential points are different.

Kelvin is the point where any molecule does not move anymore, so there is no warmth. The absolute zero point, 0 degrees K, is -273.15 degrees Celsius and the scale is the same as degrees Celsius.

It's a nice 295 degrees K here at the moment.

Neil

I can explain it in one term: fiction.

But you have to admit I wasn't too far off and after 25 + years that aint a bad effort is it? :D

Col ]:)

I consider the Bible to be two separate books one being a historical record of the Jewish people and the other called the New Testament a book of fiction that has been bound in a similar cover as the older book and added to it so it looks the same and has the same historical accuracy attributed to it.

Think of it this way you go out and buy a complete set of the Encyclopedia Britannica and then make up a book of pure fiction bind in in a similar manner and print Book X + 1 on the front cover and spine where X is the last of the Encyclopedias and the book of pure fiction laid out in a similar manner looks and feels like part of the collection. Just because the previous X number of copies where accurate by no means makes the last book believable.

Now I suppose I'm going to be attacked for Blasphemy. :D

Col ]:)

Degrees Rankine. This is Kelvin for Fahrenheit users!

Absolute zero is -459.67. The reason I know all of this is that I've just organised a temperature sensor for our DR site - the aircon blew up on Friday and no-one noticed until the SAN shut down at 60C - and it can be configured in Cesius, Fahrenheit, Kelvin and Rankine!

Neil :D

I guess I was lucky I grew up in the era where they pushed metric real big here in the USA.

Someone says "God, man...I was burnin up outside...it was 40!", I know not to expect frostbite on their bum or think them being sarcastic.

should be ordered "normal" or "extra cold"

:p

never underestimate the man who can tell when he's getting shorted a bit on his pint...

every drop counts :)

Guinness go neart!

I left QU in 1974 that's about 31 years ago now well nearly it's actually more like 30 years 6 months. And the last thing that I did there was Physics which other then for engine design I never used again. Granted I did a little bit of U235 Reactor work since and my final thesis was on a new type of U235 Reactor for medical work but that was more to do with construction and earth quake proofing the assembly rather than any revolutionary redesign.

You might like this one I went to a lot of trouble about 20 years ago now when they where talking about redeveloping Lucas Heights AU only reactor which is used to develop Medical stuff and dope Industrial Silicon for electronics use here in Sydney and I told those in power that they had to build a better mouse trap to prevent any contamination in case of an earthquake. Well I was pooh hooded for this and told that in AU we do not have earthquakes or at least not major ones so I was just attempting to get them to waste money on building something better than was needed {If that is possible when you are talking about something with a half life that long :D} But within 2 years of my proposal being rejected Newcastle was flattened by an earthquake. :)

So I believe that the redevelopment plans where put on hold and only recently have been given the go ahead about 30 years too late but none the less they are going ahead. When they got most of the initial earthworks done they discovered a fault line directly underneath the complex that not only affected the new building but the old one as well. So they continued unabated with their heads in the sand with some excuse that well we haven't had any problems so far so She'll Be Right Mate! ;)

Of course those that are responsible for making the decisions will not be working there or even live in Sydney. I only hope that they are all in the main containment building when the earthquake hits that would at least be giving the stupid fools a taste of their own medicine. :D

Col ]:)

the "I told you the bloody thing would meltdown" t-shirts ready?

:D

I do and they glow in the dark as well just to push home the point. :D

Col ]:)

Both use the triple-point of water as a reference point, and an identical unit of measure of temperature.

Therefore, aside from the numbering system used, they are equivalent.

==================================================

kelvin:

the base unit of temperature in the International System of Units that is equal to 1/273.16 of the Kelvin scale temperature of the triple point of water

Kelvin:

relating to, conforming to, or having a thermometric scale on which the unit of measurement equals the Celsius degree and according to which absolute zero is 0 K, the equivalent of -273.15?C

For answering that question for me!

Col, when did I EVER ask an easy question? No, don't answer that -- it could provoke an argument!

Boone, where does that leave the 0.01 degree at "absolute zero" for K and Celsius if they are both "equivalent"?

On second thoughts, maybe you'd better leave me in darkness -- or the cold -- before this gets out of hand!

Thanks everyone. I think my curiosity has been satisfied!

But as you have already brought it up. :)

The easy one that comes to mind really fast was the one about "Where Do I Find The Product Key?" :p

See no arguments from this end. :D

Col ]:)

Because your post wasn't about temperature. You can answer anything you like that's not on the topic!!!

Both Kelvin & Celsisu use the Triple-point of water as a reference point (whereas Centigrade & Fahrenheit use the freezing point instead.)

Said triple-point is defined as being +0.01 degrees Celsius, which is equivalent to 273.1[b]6[/b] degrees Kelvin.

Therefore, absolute zero, 0 degrees Kelvin, is 273.16 Celsius [b]and[/b] Kelvin degrees below the triple-point, or -273.1[b]5[/b] degrees Celsius.

If needed, at home tutoring services are available.

Continue telling every one just how bad the weather is in Melbourne? :D

Granted last time I was there it was bearable but I think it was one of those freak days. :)

Every other time I've been there I've seen all 4 seasons in a single day and that was in summer. I've never been brave enough to go down there in Winter as the place is so fickle. :(

Col ]:)

Col, you'd better get back in your nice, cosy little Brissy box before She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed finds out and sends you to Melbourne in the middle of July!!

Boone, your answer -- for which grateful thanks anyway! -- reminded me of the time in Junior High when I was learning pi. Should it be to this decimal point or that?

Now I can't even remember back that far, but sometimes it does make you wonder about our early scientists, doesn't it? For just 0.01, they "agreed to disagree" simply because of the tiny difference between two sets of values. Oy vey!!

G

I have no fear of that happening "She Who Must Be Obeyed" doesn't want to leave Queersland again ever. :)

Something about Homicidal Truck Drivers and bad roads in NSW came from her lips when we eventually arrived home, I was half asleep by then as I'd driven all the way back to Moree without a break so I slept between Moree or a little out of it to Goondiwindi and then drove from Goondiwindi to the bottom of Cunningham's Gap where I was nearly falling asleep so I made her drive the last leg back in while I slept all of about 130 Kilometers but what can I say it was through Peek Hour Traffic. :D

I did see a very nice 280CE Mercedes advertised in Melbourne a few weeks ago and when I brought up the subject of going for another little drive I was told in no uncertain terms where I could get off. :(

Now if Melbourne was so safe why do the trams have "Ground Effects undercarriage designs?" While I'm no expert on Light Rail systems I did have a Great Uncle who was a little known Civil Engineer John Jeb Crew Bradfield better known for designing and constructing a giant coat hanger in Sydney which when the initial shock wore off they decided to use as a bridge but they had to remove the hook first. :p

Anyway he did a lot of work on both light and heavy rail and is the Guy responsible for the DC Trams in a lot of the major cities at one time or another. Of course every other city saw the error of their ways and did away with the tram system to free up more road space and that only left Melbourne to persevere with the silly things. Because of the icy conditions in summer and even worse conditions in winter these things could not rely on their weight alone to stop ice forming on the tracks or the earth or negative side of the circuit so they had to at a very early stage redesign the rolling stock to be a Ground Effects type of system where as the unit gathers speed it is sucked down onto the rails and breaks the ice that forms. The faster that these things go the more down force is generated to break up the ice and other crud that forms on the tracks. :)

The family still has some of his writings about the problems that where experienced in Melbourne with the tram system and the ice build up on the tracks preventing the completion of the circuit. JB really thought that Melbourne was unsuited to trams and for that reason the City Fathers just to spite him persevered with the silly things and today is the only city left with the things still running. But if they where removed it would allow another 3 lanes for cars and busses on the streets. :p

Col ]:)

The most important point of all. While trams may have their faults, i.e. having to run on set routes because of the rails, they are electric and do not clog up the atmosphere with noxious greenhouse gases as cars and buses do.

Sorry, but I had to say that, as not only is Melbourne recognised as one of the cleanest cities on the planet these days for that very reason, you've also got to remember that now we've hit the 21st century, people are far more aware of the environment and everything pertaining to it, i.e. those same noxious gases.

In fact, there's all sorts of bills and laws being presented and/or passed by the government to ban cars (and even buses) from the city entirely, to force people to take trains and trams which are much cleaner.

Now, while I don't know what fair Brissy is doing in that respect, you've got to admit that just about every city in the world has to deal with this problem now at some level or other, before we're all gased to death. And Melbourne is ahead of you and many others already in this respect.

No wonder, with an ancestor like your great uncle, you're so into engineering at all levels! But surely you're not going to tell me that Melbourne is the only place in the country that has the Mercedes' that you want????

I had a 280SE on a 116 Chassis and it only took me 5 years to find one that was worth the effort to restore. About 3 months after the restoration was finished one of the guys here stole it and was T-Boned by a semi running a red light and totally destroyed it.

Even the car that I went to Melbourne to pick up is or was an odd one being a 114 Chassis with EFI on a 110 motor series pity that all the nice electronic bits where missing and it had a manual gearbox as well a real odd one there.

There is a really Idiot thing going on here and that is I can import a car from the US and have it delivered here cheaper than buying one in AU and having it transported. Even with the saving I can alter the car to right hand drive and still come out on top but the ones that I really like are not all that common so when I see one I do tend to pick them up no matter where they are.

But I do for the sake of peace and quite generally wait until I've finished one restoration before buying another car. It's just that a 280CE on a 116 Chassis is a real rareity with a 6 cylinder motor and EFI most had V8's in them and being a 2 door they are not the most common cars available and when you think that I have most of the mechanical parts for a 116 Chassis as well as a brand new motor and gear box well what can I say? The ones that do crop up from time to time are generally real messes full of rust and run into the ground so if I can find a part way decent one that doesn't involve a complete strip down and several thousand hours of rust removal work before it can be reassembled and painted I grab them. For some funny reason most of the ones that peek my interest are in Perth which is just too far to go! Or it could be that I just refuse to drive the Nallabough Road ever again. I've done that 3 times now and I think that was 5 times too many.

Now if I was still doing work for the Air force I could get them to transport the things around in a Hercules for me but I can't stand the back stabbing and general total lack of safety involved in that work.

Now to tear apart your Idea that Electricity is a clean alternative. :D

Well in the Case of Melbourne it may well be a "Clean" alternative to or for Melbourne but it certainly is not a clean alternative to any other kind of fuel to the places where the Power Stations are as those places churn out hundreds of tons per day of Carbon and various other pollutants into the surrounding air. All you achieve by using electricity is to move th pollution some where else and at the same time make the society vulnerable to attack. The Power Grid is the easiest thing to attack and do maximum damage on the face of the planet and in out current conditions requires nothing more technical than a simple box of matches which can be picked up for less than 10 cents to destroy possibly hundreds of KMS of power transmission lines. We can survive without power in a limited area for a few days or even at a push maybe a week but if it was a widespread blackout we would be stuffed after 24 hours. it would be impossible to pump any fuel to power transport or water for drinking or sewerage to stop a backup and overflow into the suburban streets. There would be no possibility of getting any money from the banks as there are no longer any passbooks accounts everything is on a computer and without power there are no computers!

But even if you could get some money just what would its use be? Other than a few items of caned food and bottled water which would very quickly run out there would be nothing worth buying in the city areas at least. Where would have to be severe fuel restrictions put in place as all the fuel requires electricity to pump it up from the underground tanks.

As it requires more energy to move this fuel that the moved fuel could produce its use would have to be limited to Emergence vehicles only and even then that would immediately rule out the fire brigade as there would be not enough water to waste on putting out a fire, the Ambulances would very quickly become unnecessary as the hospitals could not cope with their existing patients let alone any influx on new patients and even the Police would be hard pressed to retain control as people are very unlikely to behave when faced with starvation. So any available fuel would be reserved for Military purposes and even then AU doesn't have a large enough standing Army to control a wide spread Civil Disobedience outbreak even if the problem was limited to just one area of a State. To be effective the military would need to have a very small area affected which in the case of a terrorist attack wouldn't be the case as once the Overhead Power Transmission lines fall they cause a surge that shuts down the generators which would have to be stopped tested and then run up to speed synchronized and then brought back on line best case scenario without any damage being caused to the generators would be a 3 day turn around to be up and running again and then they would have no way to deliver the power. A single break in the Over Land Transmission lines can be fixed very quickly but imagine even a small one Kilometer break in these lines it would require far more than just a bit of wire as the towers would have to be replaced which is time communing at best even if they had spare ones available which they don't!

While moving the electrical generation stations out of the Cities was good to control pollution it also left the cities vulnerable to loss of power for long times and no remedy for the problem.

I think a show that Douglas Adams was involved in many years ago summed it up best it went something like this "When will man realize the folly of requiring fossils fuels it is only common sense to use Hydrogen as an everyday fuel as it is the only renewable non-polluting fuel available cheaply and in vast amounts!"

Any guesses which show that was?

Col ]:)

I quite agree with you, insofar as your scenario of a terrorist attack goes. Myself, I'd very much like to go solar, or some other form of renewable energy, rather than what we have now, but at the moment, it's beyond my pensioner purse.

However, what I've said about our present scenario here in Melbourne describes the here and now, and is actually a response to something that happened not so many years ago here which you may have heard about.

There was an explosion at one of our power stations. Two blokes were killed. The result was that the output of electricity had to be slashed dramatically. Those who could went over to generators or gas, if they had it, the rest of us suffered through a month either without it, or we were only allowed tiny amounts at certain times of the day.

No electric cooking (I've got gas, thank heavens), no electric hot water (we suffered cold showers at the end of winter!) and dozens of other restrictions as well. They even sent out patrols to make sure everyone had turned off their electric meters and weren't cheating! Offenders were fined. It really felt just like the kind of scenario you've put forward in many ways, Col.

At the end of it all, the government was determined to take measures so it wouldn't happen again. Hence the crackdown on the worst kinds of polluters -- cars and buses first. Keep things like that out of the city proper.

Promotion of trains and trams for travel came next. But overall, the government, in kahoots with the service companies, are now promoting alternative power/water sources -- solar, wind, recycling water, grey water, tanks, etc. etc.

And for those who take up these ideas, they get special rebates on their bills, their service costs go down, and there's lots of other assorted perks.

Water in particular has to be watched, but they're dragging in the other service providers as well, so one way or another, we'll all be using renewable energy all the time pretty soon.

As for your Mercedes' obsession -- Col, there are some hobbies that are perfectly attainable, but I don't think your's is one of 'em!

G

Factory GP racer built in 1959 which I bought as a basket case and when I realized what it actually was I used it for Historic Racing. Two Meets a year on the east coast and the few practice days during the year so it really didn't get much running. But when it did I went through a rear tire in 30 minutes a front tire in 45 minutes a rear chain well 4 a day and they where not the cheap ones which just broke of the first outing when I rung its tiny little neck a tad.

I worked it out once with all the spares and blown motors that it suffered it was costing me 26K per year to keep on the race track and that was without a minor prang which I never had because the parts where far too hard to get well some where anyway. Even the Cylinder Head which suffered a few times when I broke the motors only took about 50 hours of labor to reclaim and the guy who repaired them didn't charge me for labor.

Whenever I took one in he just looked and shook his head in disbelief. But I still think that the best one was when a closing rocker broke and allowed the piston to clout the exhaust valve and when I took the head in it had the remains of the valve head pushed through the top of the cylinder head with the piston firmly attached to the mess.

But I only paid $50.00 for the bike initially and sold it for $40.000 and was told what a marvelous profit I had made on it. I still think that that little hobby was expensive collecting the Mercedes is far cheaper and the wife isn't constantly breathing down my neck when I spend money on parts. If I get a real mess I just give it to her and then there are no questions asked about what I'm spending on it. :D

But she insists that I keep my 1982 Ducati 900 SS as it is such a nice play toy even if the parts are very hard to get for it. :p

Anyway you know what they say about the difference between boys/men and their toys the adult toys are a lot more expensive! :)

Actually I thought it was the Gas plant that blew in Melbourne and that was what caused all the problems.

I have a friend in Sydney who has gone totally solar and she sells power back to the power companies as she manages to generate more than she requires during the day when the Solar Cells are working at peek performance and the batteries are fully charged it automatically diverts any excess power back into the grid and she gets a refund every quarter for the power that she has put into the grid. I bet the authorities are chocking on this one though as they wouldn't like this to happen too often. She did the installation over a few years with staring off with the very basic one solar cell and a few 12 volt batteries and a small inverter the only thing that was a must was a automatic power switch to stop the batteries over charging and she has kept adding to the system. She now generates 5 KW per day that is feed back into the power grid in excess of her needs so it is beginning to pay for itself now and other than replacing the jell batteries every 5 years or so there are no ongoing expenses. That particular installation has paid for itself now and providing all the power that she needs.

Col ]:)

And I don't care what the government perks and rebates are! But if I can get at least solar power up and running (starting small, of course), then bugger what the government thinks, or anyone else.

Selling excess power back to the service companies would do me very well, and would also, no doubt, pay for replacement batteries every five years or so.

I also want to install a water tank and a grey water system, except I'm not sure what kind yet. But I'll have a little think about it, see what's on offer and go from there.

I hope we put all the services out of business! They can start to pay us for a change after the years and years we've had to put up with exhorbitant bills from them! Serve 'em all right!

Long live renewable energy!!