Ageism? Good Idea?

It's true, the older (more experienced) we become the more we refuse to make the same old mistakes AGAIN. Because some inexperienced kid (the boss ?) just thought it up and thinks he is blessed with "The Original Idea". He's too young to know, like most things being today, it was done before with different hardware or operating systems limitations.

When we are young we have the flexibility to learn fast and it is all new and wonderful! Who cares about the past and lets forget it and go forward. But rememeber those that fail to learn from the past are destined to repeat it. Does this mean you will mess up and end up with DOS as your OS again? Of course not, but the lessons we learned and why DOS wasn't a good base for the OS especially in today and tommorows hack-a-matic world should not be lost.

I agree that with age comes experience and experience is essential to success in this industry but I pose the question to all of the older techs in here: How do we gain this experience if no one will hire us?? I am a young tech fresh out of school and I'm by far not saying I am prepared to be a senior technician or developer but many companies are not prepared to take on new younger techs and show them the ropes. Where do we gain this valuable knowledge that only comes from experience if no one will give us the chance to show the skills we have developed?

...if you didn't have to compete against experience.

>>>They prattle on about how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore and 90% of current IT folk don't even know what it is!<<<

the commandline seperates the men from the boys :p

even today

Excellent reply. I enjoyed reading your response to my topic Ageism. YOu are right of course. Along with many others who have a view.

Just to put the record straight...

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Not all youngsters or all oldersters have Competence, that is what matters not age, or even if they use DOS or something else, but how well the job is accomplished.

I'm a MAINFRAMER from way back. I've had VERY little experience in programming for desktop systems, servers, etc.

Due to my EXPERIENCE, I believe that my biggest asset is my ability and willingness to learn. There are parts of mainframe that I've never done, but could learn and be productive very quickly (e.g. IMS/DB2). I also believe that I could learn new technology very quickly. And I'm an old f*** (53).

There's not a whole lot of difference between various coding languages (perhaps except "C"). It's all a matter of syntax. Other than syntax, it's just reading files, processing data and making decisions based on that data. Not too tough.

Back before the War we didn't have any of these sissy Icons and windows. We didn't even have DOS, We only had ones and zeros. Sometimes we didn't even have ones! I remember my first computer course clocking in the bootstrap a byte at a time, none of these long words for us, nosiree! We were called computer operators back then and Nobody gave us any crap or we'd play trip and pickup with their card deck. Mess with us and your modem would just disconnect every 3 minutes. And punch cards were the new thing back then too. Much easier to deal with than those Dinosaur wiring panels.
And it was a tough Job too. The rooms were so cold one guy froze to death because he fell asleep waiting for a job to finish. Another broke a leg when the technician forgot to replace a floor panel. You guys have it so easy today with your DVDs, memory sticks and tape libraries. Back then we did backups like real men! one tape at a time. And we had to thread them too. Try doing that with gloves on! Everyone thought the programmers were gods because the went around in white robes and sandals. Heck the disks were really floppy back then too. No plastic cases - just a paper sleeve
Look you snot nosed wet behind the ears truant, Just because there is snow on the mountain top doesn't mean the volcano is extinct!

LOL

I'm 58. The IT Manager of our company. Small, 3 servers and 20 some workstations and laptops. Yes, I work in DOS sometimes.

We also sell MFP's and I'm the one who goes out and networks them. Many customers feel comfortable with the fact that I'm an "older" person working on their networks. Age and experience counts for something when an outsider is working within their setup.

And, yes, I'm still learning. The day we stop learning is the day we stagnate and die.

Many younger than I have more education and training, but how many of them get asked for personally when there is a problem to be solved?

I may not be smarter but I do get the job done, either within my own network or for the customer who has a problem. I'm not bragging - just stating a fact.

Don't limit or judge someone because of their age, age is just a number. What counts is what's inside and what one can do.

I'm off the soapbox now.

As someone who started in computers when Bill Gates was in High School, I can tell you that we 'geezers' are essential to any IT group of any size. My maturity, work ethic, ability to reason and troubleshoot problems have gotten me further than a gaggle of tech-school jockies with certifications but no experience or common sense. Respect your elders, you'll be one someday!

No moron, I read your original post. Do you know how to recover a DEAD/Screwedup registry hive? One way is thru, oh my God, DOS... Oh, I forgot, you're too young to grasp that old concept, Sh?t-for-brains. You're from the UK? That makes you a LOSER... I see your future!!! You might be just good enough to sweep the floors at McDonald's. Oh, I forgot, that's an old concept that you can not GRASP, again!!!! Why don't you just shoot yourself and do the world a favor...............

Are you just looking for a heated discussing with this largely meaningless topic? You hire the best person for the job. Age is irrelevant. But idiocy, as exhibited by the OP, isn't...

Attitude is at least AS important as knowledge.

Well sonny sounds like you put your pants on over your head and are talking through your a..hole. So you think oldies can't learn new tricks? I'm 65 and still the best programmer, .net no less!!

Robb,

You wingnut! You just alienated all the hiring old farts out there for any young "wingnut" looking for a job!

May the fleas from a 1,000 programmers infest your tentacles! (Yeah I know what I was spelling) /ALE

I am an older worker in the IT field. I have not had any problems keeping up with changes. I started out working on IBM System 3s and System 36s. I now currently work with Cisco routers, Windows Servers, SCO Unix boxes, IBM AS400, Desktop and Laptop PCs.

Everyone (old and young alike) at my office knows what DOS is.

<<"If you were interviewing candidate for a job in network technical support, would you employ a 55 year old? Truthfully please!">>

If the choice is between the 55 year-old and you and the 55 year-old can say "computer", I would select the 55 year-old. My two main reasons are:

1) He is probably teachable. You appear to know it all.

2) Your attitude sucks: <<"Older people (over 40s) working in the IT industry is like a wrinkly driving a sports car...pathetic! Buy a Volvo for Christsakes!">> IT is as much people oriented as it is hardware and software. I don't need an employee bad-mouthing older workers.

IT is for those who are capable of doing the job. Age is irrelevant.

I have been in IT since 1979. Which might tell you about how old I am.
Yes I remember DOS. Today I work with W2k3 and Linux. I have not stopped learning, I do it every day.
It isn't that I am unwilling to change. I love change and that is why I am in this business, it never stops changing.
Sometimes it is that I already made that mistake, and I don't need to see if it is still wrong.

I believe it was Admiral Rickover (Father of the nuclear navy) that said "It is necessary to learn from other's mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself".

The older worker may be able to save the younger worker from learning the hard way.

Having worked with a number of people for many years in the IT industry, I'd have to say you're argument has a number of flaws.

1) you assume that anyone over a certain age is unable to keep up with technology.
2) younger doesn't mean smarter, or faster.

that being said, older people do have a great deal of experience and knowledge to share. chances are they have "been there and done that" more times than you can count.

to answer your question...I WOULD hire a 55 year old, if hey were the right person for the job. period.

beware of painting with a wide brush...you may paint yourself into a corner.

Yes, I can say from personal experience, having been a CIO, and a software engineer, with experience going back to the 70s, and am current in VB.net and ASP...that age bias is the norm, not the exception. The US is aging, ironic that those over 50 are being shunned by the fewer younger workers out there in hiring positions. The only recourse for older workers is to find wiser places to work, start a new company, turn hobby into income, or update old skills, and contract...I have decided to return to software development - but am stilla fan of IT. Software doesnt care what the age of the developer is...in fact, experience makes the job a lot easier...

It probably wouldn't do to reveal my age, and even if I told you when I took my first programming course it would make me 'too old' for some of you to want around.

By being biased based upon my age, you may be shorting yourself and your company by not giving me equal or greater attention than the newbies.

Is DOS important? No, not in the USA/Japan/EU high tech world. But that is the wrong question.

You have no idea how many times "Well durrrrrrrrrrrr, george!" has almost escaped my mouth as I read all the "tips & tweaks" written up here. What is so frightening to some to actually work with CLI rather than a hand-holding GUI?

I know that when I took on W2K and setting up a network on it, I would have been SOL some of the time if I had to use GUI only.

Same goes for hand-editing Registry ... no big deal.

And the tips about BATch files? What's so new about that?? Running XP Pro I can, if I so choose, run a 20 year old DOS program in full screen mode if I simply start it with a batch file ... and work outside the constraints and restraints of the XP architecture.

In case some of you haven't yet realized it, didn't get so much as hint when you saw those "DOS Shortcuts" as part of XP structure, most of the utilities you use to manage the mess that Microsoft software can generate are ... you guessed it: DOS based.

So why hire an old lady like me? Because I can teach the newbies things they won't get in a classroom and might otherwise take ten years to realize, after who knows how many close calls and near-fatal episode. Agreed, some old guy who wants to keep his secrets wouldn't be of much assistance anywhere at *any* time; but I'm lazy, and I'm proud of what I know, and so I share and teach as much as I can get away with -- so the youngsters can take over the workload and maybe, just maybe, say to someone "Hey, you'll never believe the new tweak I picked up from The Old Lady today!"

moi

-- The smart executive wants people SMARTER than s/he working for him/her; doesn't let age, gender, race, or university education skew honest decision making on 'best hire' and 'best promotion'; has the cojones to trust employees to do the job they were hired for, and even go a step beyond when they are treated with respect.

I do network and client work along with having knowledge in mainframe and mid-range environments. I am in my mid forties and am currently working with a group of guys who are in their mid-thirties and I out perform them all!!!!!! With age comes experience and wisdom. Younger people are clueless to the pithfalls of doing things the wrong way since they do not have the experience under their belt to know better.

You have to consider experience and flexibility rather than age. In your interview you should try to determine if the person is stuck in the past and unwilling to learn/use new systems or if they are adaptable.

Everyone has to learn new systems in order to keep up. If the older person refuses to keep learning in order to remain effective they should be bypassed the same as a younger person who refuses to continue their education and training should by bypassed when hiring.

Finally, people who have been in the profession since DOS or earlier should have a wealth of experience that younger worker lack. This includes more troubleshooting and problem solving experience, experience with projects that have failed (which should give them the ability to look at new projects more critically) and more experience with innovative solutions.

A while ago I had a situation with an email listserv that was not compatible with the database in which a large mailing list was stored. The younger IT people responsible for the email system told the department head to either abandon the mailing list or have someone re-type it into the listserv. At that point I suggested that they export the mailing list to an ASCII file and import that file into the listserve electronically. The IT person had never heard of ASCII but quickly understood it when I explained it and the task was completed quickly and easily.

For those who think IT is for the young. I taught myself how to program when I was in my 30s, I got my degree when I was in my mid 40s, graduating the top of my class with a 4.0 average and at the age of 55 I just finished taking a course in VB.net also making an A in this class. When I was getting my degree most of the younger people dropped out, because they weren't willing to in the extra work and time to get through the classes. So don't tell me I am to old to program, I love what I do and could show you a few things.

First I was offended by Robb's lead-in ... But then I figured he is probably under 25 and completely out of touch with reality.

I am a 55 year old technologist and executive. I can't get the new stuff fast enough, whether it is hardware or software. I have always been this way with technologies.

The employees that Robb describes have problems, but age isn't one of them. I constantly see the same "lack of motivation to keep current" with younger employees (employees of all ages to be exact).

In summary, I have come up against age descrimination (let's call it waht it really is) a lot over the past 5-10 years. That is why I now own a successful IT/Telecom services company that only employs agressive individuals over the age of 45. Our knowledge and problem solving abilities run circles around the younger workers.

Robb, your comment shows lack of perspective and insight into what makes a good IT person. What are you talking about DOS? Grow up and get experience. You mistake youth and knowledge with experience that not only comes from education, but also from years of work. Youth is brash and cocky this landed us in the ?dot Com? type of fiasco. Too many to mention. Do not forget either how many billions of dollars of project over-runs are created by lack of experience in doing the right job that does what your clients asks for and that works the first time. Eighty percent of projects are never completed on schedule, even using the latest automated software engineering tools. Not because of tools but because of lack of experience and know-how. If I recruit a kid for a job it will be for coding, not for any leadership position. Gates did not start out to be a billionaire. He employed senior people to get where he is today. Let kids play in the sandbox, let knowledgeable people manage. You don?t perform brain surgery just because you got a medical licence. You need experience and mentors to become good and that takes years. Without insight you can?t manage change, only play with your X-Box.

On behalf of all open-minded people, including Gen-x'rs. I fall into both categories myself. I don't discriminate based on age. I admire (and am a little jealous) of those that have a solid grasp of DOS. I know that I have a lot to learn, and I appreciate those that teach me (no matter how old they are).

Now see here youngun, I can do everything you think you can do faster, better and easier. Yep, I'm 42 years old and have been in the IT field since I was 21. I have enough knowledge and experience to leave you on the floor gasping for air while I haven't broken a sweat. You see I don't have to run to the 'net to find out things, I already know them. I'll have it done while you're still googling...

But you are also one of the wisest....

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

I have approximately 45 engineers, IT professional, and mid managment reporting to me. Of the 45 employees, the mostly reliable and trustworthies are older seasoned veterans in the industry. People that have been in the trenches during the heap of a data center meltdown or even a catastrophic loss of hundreds of servers.

New and young bloods have a long ways to go before they can begin to think that the IT world would be better served if senior citizens aren't around to slow them down. IT professionals are no different than other professionals such as lawyers, doctors, teachers and so forth. Their past experiences which includes failures and success is their assets. Its not some young shmuck who picked up a technical book at a local book store and past hisor her certification and think he can run an enterprise shop.

Just take a moment and think about it. When we seek professional service regardless of what it is, do we not look for professionals with a great deal of experience? Good solid experience can only be acquired through time and not a local book store or even a testing center.

So the next time you kiddies think that older IT professional are a nuisance... think about what I am saying.

I happen to be 62 and quite happily running my own NT 5.0 / Apache / Bind 9.3 system on the Net.
Some "oldies" are still up to it, you know!

Due respect where respect is due!

With respect, I think, at least from here, that you are being a trifle harsh.

I meant no harm and only wanted to bring to the attention of the cosy and sleepy the difficulties that we have when we get passed 45. That's all. Nothing more.

I did not expect quite such a massive response. But I am happy for others that I hope might benefit from this exercise.

I never did this for myself. That was never the thrust of the topic. I did it because it needed to be said. I stand by that decision and I am prepared to suffer the slings and arrows of that outrageous fortune (to quote my famous countryman).

I am sad that you have not found anything positive in my attempt to high-light this injustice.

I wish you well and hope that you will never have to struggle to find work when you are of a mature age.

Best regards

Robb

This thing has exploded over night I hope you can keep up with it. :D

Col ]:)

What do you think the command prompt is???? I agree that if you are working on Windows XP you do not need extensive knowledge of DOS, however try to walk someone through a command line procedure without knowing the basics. Very difficult, then try to do that over the phone when you don't know it very well. =)

Using the recovery console in Windows XP is difficult without some basic DOS knowledge.

If you are support a product that work over multiple version of windows then you might want to know how to use command line tools. This could be very useful.

And if you are trying to reload the Windows ME, Window 98 SE or Windows 2000 Pro from scratch you might want to be able tools like format and fdisk.

TSC

Greetings Everyone!

I think a person should be judged on how qualified they are for the job, and not solely based on age.

There are times when age maybe of some significance, such as lifting or where physical strength is needed. Other than that, if the person can do the job, then they should be hired.

CC

I can only hope that many will not see it that way. But I do accept that you have a valid point and although I do not agree, I would defend your right to make it.

Let's hope that when this furore had died down, people will reflect in a more philosohical mood and be less unforgiving. Whether or not you are inclined to agree or disagree, the fact remains that the over 45s are treated (in some cases) very badly in our industry. And that cannot be right. I wish to bring that to the attention of as many people as possible, in the hope that it might inspire change.

In the meantime, I wish you well and thank you for your comments, which I receive in good grace.

Robb

I knew that many would become passionate and many would become defensive. Others would be aggressive and some stupid in their silly remarks and nihilistic in their opinions.

However, I am not easily swayed. Brits are tougher than that! I feel very strongly that this issue needs an airing. Judging by my mailbox and the responses on this web site, I was right.

I believe that this topic holds the record for responses over a short period. Let's hope that something good and positive comes out of it.

For myself, I care not for the stones tossed my way (Robb May 11th 2005!)

Very best regards

Robb

Thank you, I needed a little friendly support.

I have been surprised at some of the silly comments I have received as a result of my subterfuge (did I spell that correctly? Never mind). I knew it was going to be interesting, but it has been overwhelming.

We can but hope that good will come of it.

Happy trails

Robb

Where they think that they know it all but not the stage where they have enough experience to realize just how little it is that they know. :)

The better ones eventually grow out of this and start learning again just about the same time that they realize that they have entered the hardest school of all the University of Life. :D

Col ]:)

Thanks for your response. I am glad that my topic has inspired you to make a point.

However, my wife speaks Russian (she is Ukrainian) and she doesn't recognise your Russian 'saying'. I think you might have made it up. Nothing wrong with that. After all, I made up the topic, which was rather underhand, at least according to some.

I wish you well and hope that you support my contention that it is unfair, and unjust to discriminate against mature workers.

Happy Trails

Robb

My Dad retired at 65. He had an almost illness free life. He worked outdoors for most of it. He served our country in WW2 and didn't even get a scratch.

Within six months of retirement he died.

What can I say? Life can be a b**ch.

I'm sure that you will be there at 101 to make up for your Dad. Good on ya.

Robb

I think AGEISM is a bunch of bull. I'm 47, I've been go to different computer class, and I find it fascinating also I?m in process of getting all the cert. for MS-2000 and 2003 programs. Yet, I find out if you?re over 30 Years you can kiss the job market good by.

So I think if you can do the job age doesn?t matter.

SO AGEISM IS B-LL SH-T.

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Where is he! Look, buddy, I'm 50, six foot four, 255 lbs and I work out daily. Why don't you let me show you how worthless age and wisdom are! What nerve! Many more unprintable to you! Yes, I may not have all certificates yet I've worked on THOUSANDS of computers and their problems and I solve them quickly because I've already seen it!

I just turned 50 and was "outsourced" by a fortune 50 co. Been hearing through my contacts that the youngsters they hired in the central data center in chicago (at half the price) are worse than useless, that it takes days instead of minutes for the simplest of problems to be fixed.

I can't be hired, I am too old, despite the fact that on all the short term projects I have worked since, the "certified" youngsters that I reported to have no idea how to organize or manage projects or people, have no conception of how to troubleshoot a problem, other than replace or reload, have no idea what all those clicks and commands they learned in cram courses actually mean or how much trouble they can cause by not knowing the basic concepts of how hardware, software and users interact. Plus, DOS is still used by thousands of legacy and embedded apps, and to be truly usefull, you have to be fully comfortable with CLI's if you want to be a UNIX, LINUX or Cisco guru.

There is no substitute for 30 years hands on experience coupled with simultaneous 30 years continuing education.

But I do start getting a bit offended when I'm expected to "KNOW IT ALL" and am treated that way. I do know just how little I actually know and am constantly working on learning much more but it just gets to me when I'm considered as "The Resident Expert" and called that by the younger guys. :)

I just reply something along these lines X = The unknown quantie and a Spurt is nothing more than a drip under pressure. ;)

I just hate being in a position where I'm expected to know it all, all the time I just can not put up my hand and ask for help when I run into problems as I'm expected to fix things almost before they break and know what is going to happen again almost before it happens. I'm supposed to fault find things in a matter of nanoseconds even if the problem lies somewhere in a couple of hundred thousand lines of code. :(

I'm really not being hard on them it's just unfair that I'm the one who is constantly expected to know it all and have the answer to everything. ;)

One of my staff said to me a few years ago when I first meet you I thought you where a Know It All Bastard and when I got to Know you I realized that you are a Know It All Bastard but you really do Know It All. And at the same time was was bashing my head against a brick wall with a problem that someone else had produced and I couldn't find easily and when I asked him to help me find the problem he just said you are testing me again aren't you? :D

God I hate it when I'm treated that way. :D

Col ]:)

What the hell does age have to do with the price of fish??? thats madness, thats like saying my Dad is bigger than your Dad etc.. grow up, variation is the spice of life, in my experience should be judged on theyre ability to do a job, its a common problem nowadays that to many 'IT professionals' know how tyo do things but now why, WHY is the most important question in my opinion we need more people who understand WHY things happen not just the becasuse, generally "older" IT pro's understand the WHY not the because, explain to me how that is a bad thing? learn from experience i say. What a bloody arrogant thing to say, you quite plainly have vailidity issues. And by the way i have only been in IT for 4 years. I suppose each to theyre own opinions. Even if they are blatently egotistical. At least you gave me something to Mock for half and hour or so... thanks for that. Your not an 'IT salesman' by any chance?

Everything the previous statement about a closed mind is true. In my experience I have found that the younger you are the less apt at thinking outside the box you are. Maybe us "old techs" had to "make" things that were not designed to mix work together and that gives us an advantage. Most of the younger "paper techs" I have worked with get stumped real fast when things go outside the book examples. The real world is not in a book. Experience counts.

...truthfully, yes I would hire a 55 year old who is qualified and has seen it all: Token Ring cabling problems; bit storms on Ethernet; a guy who has analyzed gigabytes from a comm trace; a guy who knows protocols you never even know existed - I would love to hire a guy like that.

I would not like to hire someone like you because scripting is probably one of the biggest automation tools a network specialist has in his toolbox, and, (dramatic pause) Scripting (at least on Wintel platforms) originated with DOS (okay, maybe CPM).

Finally, as 400 other posts have pointed out, age discrimination is illegal, immoral and... it's just not kool, dude.

we aged warriors have made more mistakes then you have even thought of. we have learned how to solve problems. we go from what needs to be done, gnereate possibel solutions then code
we appreicate the new technology but are looking for vunerabliites

Is this really all you have to think about? Bigotry and discrimination. Older people bring maturity, wisdom and life experience to any workplace. If you have come across some older people who don't have this, then it is a personality thing - and that has nothing to do with age. Teamwork is more of a priority, and to have a effective team it needs to be well balanced with all different levels of knowledge and wisdom.
Remember you will be older one day soon - we only hope you will be wiser!

I'm working very hard on growing old disgracefully! :p

Currently I'm not there yet but I'm trying at 55 I plan on being able to drop my Ducati into top gear and be doing at least 3 times the speed limit on back roads much more fun and the fuel economy isn't bad either! :D

That monster of a thing at minimum RPM's the speed limit on open roads = 2 nd or maybe 3 rd gear I like to drop in into top and have the needle up near the RED LINE. ;) Otherwise you have to keep pulling the top off the motor to clean it up. :(

Col ]:)

You must really be joking about the dos part.
I have not met anyone in this industry that knows nothing about dos. Dos is still a of troubleshooting in this industry.

I run an IT department, when I interview, I look for people with knowledge and desire to learn.

Which applies to all ages.

Maybe you are the one that is behind on technology.

This feels to me like a bag of grapefruits (a case of sour grapes Baldrick)...

One man threatened by the older workers, who remember things from a time he's not familiar with, and have skills he doesn't understand. But, rather than relate to them or try to understand them so he can get along, he'd rather get rid of them under the pretense that ageing workers are no good.

Quite frankly, I believe it's because he's stupid.

Many of my peers in this industry have been from a generation that involved punchcards, COBOL, 640k and all that old stuff. Now, regardless of how much I've learned from those old things (most of it is analagous to current technology), I've never been given cause to assume these people any less competent than me. Maybe that's because I'm really stupid, but I doubt it because then I'd have to adopt the views of "robb".

L8r.

The only profession that age is not discriminated against and where age or lack of is a disadvantage is Politics.

Now who wants a 20 year old person representing them in Parliament or whatever?

But the sad thing is it is the people who are way too old and I don't necessarily mean in years here who do get involved in politics and even then mostly for the wrong reasons.

So we see these old geasers and then think "Thank God I'm not working with them!" And then proceed to not want anyone even close to approaching their age to be working for us.

A good example where leading from the top isn't a good thing. :D

Col ]:)

and i want you to march right into the boardroom and tell the Chairman and his board (the old guy's that built the company that pays you) how you feel...

I am sure they will agree with you !!

I agree perfectly with the premise ... there is no space in the IT technology for people that is not be able to stay updated (or that doesn't want) with current technology. Where I totally disagree is with the conclusion... age. Maybe next time can be sex, race, religion. You can find a million of reasons ... in the past somebody did for other matters.
Fortunately, and I hope it will continue in USA the age cannot be a way to discriminate people.
Arrogance to know everything is worst, because come from the ignorance.
How many young "IT" consider Linux a great conquest... Unix (but that name is not as appealing as Linux) is older than DOS ... and DOS has much less restrictions :) What a fun working with Linux, eh? But only for young people, because an older man saying he likes Unix has to retire. wow what a philosophy of life ... I hope the guy that proposed this discussion doesn't have a big responsability in hiring ... I would really like to see his team.
Now back to me... I am 52 (yes ready to retire), I don't like Unix (and Linux of course), I know all the current programming languages, I never considered VB a professional language (and now Microsoft agrees too :), I like Delphi and I learnt and likes C#. You can't believe that a 52ysr old man can work currently (and like to do) with C#, Java, Longhorn, Web services etc. ... Should I retire because I am over 40? Give me a break! I know so many coworkers 20 years younger that already knows everything because they know how to write two lines of code of VB or Java and they, when in the possibility, kills any proposal of technology improvement.
Not age or race or religion or country ... it's only attitude and fortunately there is still a lot of hiring manager with a open mind to avoid any discrimination.

your old man,
Mauro

I'm 45 and I had mainframe programmers dismiss me as a "PC guy" and talk about how great RPG and FORTRAN were. I've kept up with the revolution from dumb terminals to PCs and from client server to web-based applications. What my current employers get is my skill set which includes mentoring younger employees, application support (retail and in-house developed) and, as some of you have written, the wisdom that can come when knowledge is combined with experience and time. Robb, this was a good topic to bring up. In the U.S. we are wasting a useful labor pool of those 55 and up. I think if they have a recent cert or two they should be given a chance.

Go back and edit the original posting just to screw with their minds. :D

Col ]:)

Are you being injected with botox or something to prevent wrinkles and this has warped your thinking ??

I started in IT in 1976 as a schedular (do you know what that is??). I will be 49 in June.

We could only rent 8 hours of mainframe time from the A.M.A. in Chicago, IL.. No TSO, e-mail, servers, etc..

I went down to the data center to pick up a tape and was mezmorized by the fact I was seeing an actual computer. I applied for an mainframe operator job that opened up and was accepted.

Because we had NO TSO, the programmers would send their progrqams down on punch cards to be complied and tested the next night. If they didn't compile correctly, we fixed the problem if we could which usually involved a typo. That's with NO schooling on exactly how to code a program.

Because of that, I got very interested in the programming end of it and took 1 (that's one) semester of COBOL classes at a community college.

Now in 2005 I can write in various .NET languages,
several mainframe languages, build my own (and others) PC's. This with mostly on the job and some weeklong training classes.

I supervise 5 people and have had to help them (and others I don't supervise) out with various programming problems.

Now EXACTLY how is that a bad thing ??

By the way, a Volvo ?? Please !! My wife (of 20 years) and I just bought a 2005 Mustang GT convertible.

I suspect this was not a serious idea, just a way to start a discussion. Age obviously has nothing to do with competence. But to answer? Most people that stay in IT have to constantly learn new operating systems, languages, design techniques, development tools, etc. As someone who has been programming for 28 years, I can assure you my productivity level far exceeds that of younger programmers. I have a large amount of experience to draw on and I?m sure that applies to other more experienced workers also. Managers who fail to recognize the value of this experience are going to end up with a lot of failed projects.

Well I am one of those old Geeks! I have always been living on the leading edge myself. My son who is a young gratuate electrical engineer still prefers DOS. He was taught windows without a mouse and still will not use one. He has told me he can do a lot more and faster without the mouse. And he hates windows! I am told with XP they did away with DOS, but not true. I still use a number of DOS commands as I find them faster and simpler with XP. I admit some of us old guys like to sit back and take it easy. Then again I have run into a lot of youg guys who are just the same. They call it a comfort zone today!

Younger workers generally lack work ethic and loyalty. Give me experience and maturity over youth anytime.

Most of the better techs do not want management positions and wouldn't accept them if their lives depended upon them taking them. Just because they are capable of running a team or fault finding some intermittent problem doesn't make them good managers.

I know I've refused more management jobs than I care to even think about but I know I'd be a lousy manager anything above department head I'm not the slightest bit interested in as I'm not interested in pushing paper and keeping my hands clean.

Maybe that is why we are currently in the position we are in not enough of us want to take on management positions and get away from what we all consider our "Real Work!"

Col ]:)

While I must admit to getting a little bit steamed in the early going of this thread, it became more interesting (as time passed). Thanks robb for jump-starting our own thinking processes and allowing us to look inside ourselves once again.
Cheers, mate!

Be careful you young whipper snappers. You may think you know all of the answers. But I will guarantee you will sooner or latter run across a problem you cannot figure out, and even have no idea how to approach the problem so you can resolve it. But with age come experience. The more problems you have successfully resolved in a timely manner the better position you are in to take on the challenge of an unknown problem. Get rid of the older employees and you may find that due to your inability to solve the problem your career has been shortened too!

I figure this original post must be some kind of joke, but I'll respond anyhow. Either that or it was posted by someone in their 80's or 90's pretending to be someone young. Because I thought that this kind of bigotry died out in the 60's.

I am 52 years old and a "senior" member of a very large IT department supporting a very large International corporation. I do not have to struggle at all to keep up with change and I ditched DOS years ago, even before many of my younger co-workers would. Also, I know that I'll get flamed big time for saying this, but I work circles around most of the techs in their 20's and 30's and most of them come to me for advice/instructions on how to resolve certain issues.

There other techs here that are age 50 plus. I know this may not be the case everywhere, but our work attendance record is much better than the younger techs. Additional, we arrive for work early and leave late every single day. Most (but not all) of the younger techs arrive for work late and leave early everyday.

Please don't think that I am knocking the younger techs, because I'm really not. It's just that there is definitly something to be said about maturity. Flame this post if you see fit, but it's all the God's truth at my place of employment.

No one is too old. I can tell if a person is old by how he moves, how he acts and worries instead of doing. We need doers. Who dont stop if things get difficult, but solve it. That requires previous experience and talent, and you can include patience.

A lot of people who hire, use the Age thing to hire younger people who are allowed mistakes, as hiring older people, if they make mistakes is a dangerous thing as there are no excuses< We find it easier to tolerate mistakes from younger people, than from some one who should know better, seemingly. The question is then asked > Who hired him? <

Ain't discrimination great when you are not the one discrimation being discriminated against. I am an old geek and I have heard rationalizations for discriminating against differing "kinds" of people all my life in and out of the geek world. Let's call a shovel a shovel. If a person can get the job done, i.e. they are qualified, then let them have the job.

Some one who is over 50 and still thinks the systems from the 1970's mainframe days are still hot have not or will not ever get over it. The real question is do the IT grads of today have the what it takes other that having the ability to pass a test for certification. Sadly certs have more weight than experience or the ability to negotiate with a customer or client so that everyone is happy. Specialization is now the norm and most IT personnel would have a hard time moving from one area to another.

As someone who has occaision to hirte IT staff, I'd much rather employ someone with 20 years real world experience than someone who completed their IT degree in the last few years.

Why? People with real world experience don't need to be taught how to do the job, solve problems quicker & are better at dealing with clients.

Younger IT recruits, even with a degree have to be taught more, (becuase they don't have sufficient experince), generally take longer to solve problems & generally don'y have any people skills worth knowing about.

As for being slower to keep up with change, thats not true either. Experience equips people for coping with change.

My 2 cents

Peter

Thank you for raising this topic. I once placed my resume for a job at a consulting firm and had a call within one hour. Later I went in to get an application and that was the last I heard from them. The only new intelligence they had was my age.

It is illegal here and can open the company up to a law suit. The problem is that you have to prove that age is the issue and not some experience lack.

Russ

I have over 25 years experience in this business and am over 50. I wouldn't allow anyone under the age of 40 to be responsible for an entier enterprise ... they simply don't have the maturity or experience.

If you young pups think you are so good - then why is the current rate of project failures in the IT sector so high?

I have forgotten more than you have yet learned. Now, what was that question again (just a little old fogey humor)? I have but one happy thought right now, and that is in 30 years you are going to be me. What goes around comes around. I had hoped that prejudice could be overcome in my lifetime, but I see that it will survive for at least another generation.

I would most definitely employ a 55+ if they were qualified.

It was easy to see this was a setup, but interesting just the same. I have just completed a network engineering diploma and I am 43 (and a restaurant manager, hows that for learning something new). Whilst most of the students in my classes were around 20 they always came to me to see how to do something, so they are not so good at learning new things apparently. I might add when something is changed at work strangely enough it is the young ones who seem to rebel the most. Also, as new languages are developed they are becoming more englished orientated so from what I have seen here we are in real trouble.

The company that I referred to in my response was not a small company. In fact, it is one of the largest investor owned electric utility corporations in the US (2nd largest when I left).

No matter the size, critical concern is retaining competent technical employees. Plus, in many cases, it is preferable to keep an expert out of a supervisory position and in the trenches where they are more productive and create more value.

Dalton

Without a doubt ageism and age related hiring discrimination is almost universal in high tech... and it always has been that way. Most companies given equal qualifications and experience want to hire the youger applicants because:

They have established a corporate culture that emphasises youth, energy and vitality... older recruits often don't fit the image they want to project.

Young people can be manuipulated by promises of career advanceent...they will even sleep over at the office "to get the project out by Friday" eating pizzas and take out Chinese. Older employees are less willing to do that. In the competitive world of software development timing is often critical.... the difference can mean millions.

Health insurance costs... in a unionized workplace the older guys are usually the high seniority guys... first hired, last fired... but as we get older we tend to use health insurance plans more. Health costs have become astronomical. According to GM, each new car off the line now has a $2500 price tage on just to cover their employees insurance costs. Most companies do have a health insurance program but high tech wants no part of the high fees of an older workforce, so they will not hire older workers (if they can help it) because of those extra costs. GM has an older workforce and they can't compete with or in the overseas markets because their competitors don't have the same costs... Japan... Korea... wages are lower and ageism is tolerated... even encouraged.

It isn't always right, but it's reality in the comptitive dog eat dog world of business. Most employers try to do the right thing, they will be fair and do the best to take care of their emplyees... but it's the bottom line that counts in the end... and if the younger recruit costs less, it's the younger recruit that gets the job.

At the age of 58, I'm just completing my CompTIA A+ and at the same time the British BTEC Higher National Certificate in Computing.
As for DOS, I do know what it is and how it's used, and if it's so out of date, how come Mr. Gates is still packaging it with his operating systems?
As for experience, how does nearly 40 years in telecommunications, radio, radar and test equipment sound?
The only reason for having a dig at experience (and therefore age) is that it usually costs too much for employers to consider, they'd rather go for a youngster who can be paid a pittance and got rid of when the need arises just as cheaply.

Regards.

Usually a kid will grow out of that "I know everything, old people know nothing" stage after their first or second mistake. You know, those things that give you experience, those learning situations. Either you have never grown up or you have not ventured out far enough to learn anything. I am betting that in time you will eat your words (and this attitude) and need to go crawling to one of those fossils you are so adamantly against for help. What goes around, comes around.

women, always did. When I was 19, I dated a 38yo hottie. Do not want to think of how she is at 63! Mature is, of course, an attitude. Never cared for giggling girls. But we weren't talking about that, were we? OK then, I can teach skills. I can't teach someone how to treat people with respect. I can't teach them, that unlike for their parents, they are not a blessing unto my life each and every day they decide to grace my presence with it. Frankly, I think my may have had it closer to right when they let us know we weren't as special as we thought we were and treat others with the respect they deserve.

Frankly, It gets tiring having to raise some of these kids.

BTW, Robb, I know you are an old geezer. Discrimination is alive and well but it has to do with the dollar, if a company is just looking at annual cost to place a body (no sentiment here, just what a consultant projected) a new grad at 45-55K is cheaper than the 'experienced' worker at half again as much.

The company even figures with the skills ramp-up time they are money ahead. I have seen the figures, then watched the cuts...then been cut.

Of course, they have called me 5 times in a few months to ask how to do things(the first time on the way home), but they didn't need me anyway, right?

I think your veiws on this subject a very narrow minded. Being in my late 30's and putting myself through retraining for a diploma of network engineering i wont finish it till my early 40's and hope to hell i dont have to listen to people like you with very narrow minds thinking I.T. indusrty is for only the young. Dont you think that everyone no matter the age can have an equal opportunity in this industry.Not all the oldies as you put it get left behinde in the technology rush some actually spend the time and money to keep up with the constant development of the I.T. technology, some even more than the young and with more perpose as well... I think i have heard it all now..

Age discrimination is no more acceptable in IT than any other field of business.
I agree with all the people who have noted that the ability to do a job is primarily a function of skills, experience and attitude.

In my view diversity is a critical success factor for teamwork, and the key for managers is to build balanced teams.
We need to encourage enthusiastic newcomers who like to challenge everything and have many ideas for change. Note that "newcomer" does not necessarily imply younger person. Anyone making a career change becomes a "newcomer" again.
We also need staff with enough experience to see new ideas in context. Experience enables informed judgement about the risks, relevance and sustainability of an idea.

The TV series "The Apprentice" highlights this. Enthusiastic wannabe entrepreneurs are given great freedom to achieve specific projects. However, they operate in a program established and controlled by people with the experience to assess the value of the outcome and the way it was delivered.

If the team balance swings too far towards unchecked enthusiasm, the cost will be measured in mistakes that could have been avoided.
If the team balance swings too far towards reluctance to embrace new ideas, the cost will be measured in missed opportunities.

"Vive la Difference" - there is room for all of us.