Ageism? Good Idea?

You sure stirred the pot.

Judging by the replies there are more insecure people than you can poke a stick at. Sorry about the old fart metaphore.

Personnaly I don't think your message is worthy of a response. I am writing to the insecure, managers, executives, computer scientists and engineers. The inventors of the toys you are just learning to play with.

Don't be scared of little prats like this one. I hire people on merit and I am smart enough and have been around long enough to know the difference between quality and bullshit.

I reckon he is full of it and just stirring the pot.

Not only is your arrogance showing, your inexperience and immaturity is as well. Go suck a pacifier and stay out of the computer room until you grow up.

In 1990 I was 48 years old and given a lay off from my company along with 11 other co-workers around the same ages. I was a computer field service engineer up to date on technology. Average years per was 20 to 30 years each. I spent 4? years looking for a position / work where I could put my experience to good use. Time and again up against co-workers for the same few jobs. All equally qualified. I can empathise with the hiring businesses trying to decide a choice. Literally hundreds of applications and actually a large number of interviews (25 to 50) per year. Finally I put in for a position as a computer operator at half the pay I made before. The new company snapped me up knowing I would be a tremendous asset only they wouldn't pay for my talents and abilities except as a computer operator. Today, I do that and so much more because over a ten year period I was able to retrain myself and catch up to the technology that I fell behind over 4? years. Added to what I schooled in from out of my own pocket to get the certificates employers were looking for. Employers are not interested in self taught learning. I say to all that there is a lot of wasted knowledge out there if you need serious help. You'd be surprised at what an OLD DOG is willing to LEARN! I'm way ahead of where my old company had taken me and yes I was an extremely terific asset to my new employer who is not a computer company but is in distribution. By the way, I still use DOS from time to time but I don't wave it around. I call it my "Special Magic"!

What is the point of a good attitude without the knowledge of the job and ability to use it? A good attitude is desirable. Knowledge and skill are indespensible I would have thought.

Robb,
You're way off mate. There are three issues to consider:
1. Are there enough people to fill vacancies?
2. How long will some technologies last?
3. Can we afford to discard knowledge so arbitrarliy.

In Australia, there is a perceived shortage of skills in some areas. Mostly those that require expereince and discipline. New technology practitioners are a dime a dozen coming out of universities, colleges and cheap skills development courses.

But as generations of hardware and software pass, the young turks of the industry want to move to the next and latest. And that leaves a gap in the industry skills. If I couldn't hire that expereince, my clients would have their businesses at risk. And no....they don't want to move to the latest and best, because they've been burned by immature new technology before.

So as I opened I close:

1.The older expereinced practitioners are our only hope as skills shortages develop
2.The longevity of some technologies is far greater than the developers ever imagined, because business will hang on to reliable old as against flashy new,
3.Knowledge is always growing, never shrinking and if our senior IT citizens weren't here key IT knowledge and experience would be lost, to the detriment of business and the community as a whole.

So before you bag the old IT folks, just remember, there are countless organisations who still support COBOL applications [60's technology] and JCL [60s as well]and they are more than happy with the reliable, older person, who maintains their skills, doesn't job skip every three years and who reliably turns up on time every day and doesn't make a joke of sick leave provisions in their work agreements.

Robb, don't get me started and don't stir the possum's nest. You might just have to eat humble pie one day when you need an oldie to get you out of a tight spot.

By the way, I'm a 39 year old veteran IT baby boomer, and my skills are growing every day, and are right up there with the young geeks. I've probably forgotten more than they will ever learn.

IT oldies rule. OK!

But I can not understand how you could work without some form of DOS. It is everywhere from the CD installation of XP/2003 to running batch files.

What I do find as extremely easy is keeping up with changes in technology as I have a good grounding in what came previously and every new development to me at least is a natural progression of its previous incarnation. So while being a bit more complex than a new GUI and Icons the basic commands are still the same but maybe with a few extra options that we all wanted years ago.

Col ]:)

You wouldn't have a job to worry about. Some old folks who were hippies the IT industry possible so little turd-rustlers could have lame code-garbling wysiwyg editors so they don't have to know squat to get an job in IT - that's why it's so easy to off-shore the work these days.

Just because young programmers think you know how to drag and drop doesn't mean you know how to program - let alone structure it to make any sense for another programmer to come alone. It's unfortunate that young programmers know knill about structured programming logic - as an example of your lack of honorable and logical training, you people think it's ok to link image urls from other's sites and wear the hell out of their machines - this is such lack of honesty and integrity its beyond words. It also amazes me that youths don't show more appreciation to the founders of the industry that puts food on your table 40 years later. I hope each and every one get that promotion and screw up so bad that they get fired for not knowing DOS or not get a job because they missed that question on the inteview - laugh. By the way, it's a bastardized version of Unix, that eventually evolved into those stupid little windows so that little, ill-educated brats can have a PC in front of you at home to play with - and to spend idle, fat-gaining time hacking into peoples lives and disrupting them.

And to think, some old guys - former hippies - figured all that out so young-ones could spend the life dragging and dropping, squirreled away in a little dark corner of your bedroom - maybe they did this to the next generations on purpose to keep turd-rustlers from dating their daughters!!!

What claim to fame do young whipper snappers have? Did you create an entire industry or are you just leaching off it after all the hard work is done? Knowing IT folks that I use as contractors today (that I fire fairly regularly for not having a structured programming education) you all probably took some online 5 min course that taught what a mouse is and how to click/drag and you felt you knew it all.

Well, kid, it's sorta like mating- all kids think they do it best when they are a teen, but when they grow up, they learn that that is just a basic human instinct and that no one does it any better than anybody else for the most part at that age.

In other words, young programmers suck - that's the bottom line and they just don't know it yet.

Knowing the history of the IT industry is just as important as knowing that drag/drop programming is now a basic thing because oldies made it possible - not new fly-by-night programmers that spend their time hacking into peoples lives and disrupting computers and data for fun. You have to know more than drag/drop or cut/paste or how to steal websites to be a good, solid, reliable programmer that people want to hire again and again - this takes time - you'll see.

Nowadays I am filtering thru 'programmers' who would better be fitted to McDonalds - all they know are icon-drag/drop - and my heart breaks and waits for a real programmer to come along...someone who understands code and how its structured and can actually link a unix box to a linux box to a windows box and deal with about 50 different protocol translation routines at a time - and when he/she walks away from the job, we can continue on (and actually understand their documentation/code modules) til we need them again.

I end up hiring oldie contractors who understand process and machines and networking...because they are far and away better than any new programmer that's been in the IT industry for less than 10 years.

Not one younger programmer can do what a reliable, older contractor can do (I know because I've worked with what is called the best), so thinking this industry is for the young only will ensure you miss out on much needed guidance from older folks who've seen just a tad more programming and customer centric behaviors...

.

Well Rob,
Write a book while you still know everything!
I know more than a punk like you will ever know, why? Because you *think* you know everything, but in fact you do not. what do you do when some older piece of equipment fails, you call an older person, what a joke. You are too 'good' to learn what you decided was no longer needed. Grow up! You want to live in a box, go right ahead, personally I am 45 and I know DOS all the way to Win2003, Mac and Unix, and better than you will ever dream of! So quit yapping your dis-respecful mouth and get to work!

my first computer - a tube job, with paper tape...

it is not your physical age, but your mental and emotional age -
i work with people who are "old" at 25, "young" at 55..
people who are afraid of new technology, who are so afraid of making mistakes they end up making the biggest mistake of all - do nothing but maintain the "status quo" - those are the "old" people ...

currently i work for a very large firm - and i do all the "new" things .NET, Linux, interoperability, cross-platform wed pages, ... and i mess up more often than not - but i also make some pretty incredible programs...

Can you say old when you are just 40 and slightly
more. Wait and see if your children say that to you when you still think you are in fact not that old. It is never too late to learn but provided you are willing to learn and adapt to changing environment.When the going gets tough the tough ones old or young gets going.

stone tablets indeed. Try growing papyrus!

Any blanket characterization is an open invitation to overlook exceptions. There are plenty of older people who have not grown stodgy, and plenty of younger people with arthritis between the ears. I really think the young are most often coveted for vitality and being a better source of cheap expertise. Experience is valuable mostly for how it teaches one to cope and seek out solutions where none is immediately obvious.

In other words, smart personnel policy would not turn a cold eye on anyone who has assets to offer, as that might be the case across a broad age range.

Age also allows one to know when he is about to ignite a firestorm *hint*.

I guess that by the standards of most posters on this forum I'm an oldster (59). I've been the industry a long time and have learned that it is the blend of young and old that creates a vibrant successful team: the young enthuse the older and, if wise, realise that they can learn a lot from the older guys.

Robb essentially you are an argument for the fact your parents should have practised birth control. You are not good enough to make it and in order to be an authority you need to remove the impediments in what you consider to be your path. I would argue you are inflexible and prattling on with old ideas, the very accusations you make about older IT workers. So do what is right and get out of the business and make way for those fertile minds.

Interesting.

I've worked with some very smart people, as well as with some people that are really not too bright.

Age, gender or race has never seemed to be a barrier for either.

As far as the sports car bit goes, let's go out on the track buddy, and see if you can keep up. Maybe you think you could keep up with Paul Newman, he's 80.

This post was so blatantly prejudiced and arrogant I can't help but think it was a troll, or a plant to whip up a spirited discussion.

IT is a profession not a playground for people wanting to experiment. Old people are needed in any profession to be able to ensure continuity, direction and business sense. Many of the young IT "geeks" have no idea of time-lines, deadlines, and budgetary constraints. Neither do they keep to design specifications so the end result is more than what was necessary at a overlap of time of many months at a excessive cost. Yes I like the oldies who are less likely to get sidetracked by the latest technology when a job needs to get done. If the young geeks could manage the people and money as well as they handle technology changes then by all means use them. Does the knowledge and technology not stay matched in an older person who wishes to keep up to date?

I take umbrage at the suggestion that old geeks are not required in the IT Industry. I am 54 years old and obtained a degree in It at the age of 45. i keep up with the latest trends in the IT industry. Don't forget that the backbones of the IT industry were developed by us old geeks, we were the ones who taught you what you know so dont knock us but instead be thankful for the foundation that we have provided to you youngers to work on and one day you will also be an old geek who has improved upon technology and systems and passed them onto the next generation.

I am 49 and have 5 years IT experience plus 2 MCSEs. I'm employed for what I know not how old I am.

I'm also not employed for being non black or non female, why should age discrimination be OK?

Would I employ a 55 year old? That's as irrelevant as asking would I employ someone from a different racial background or a woman. These are not reasons to make hiring decisions. Would I employ the person with the right skills and experience for the job? Absolutely.

Fortunately we got some age discrimination legislation coming in over here soon.

I believe that the ageism in the IT industry is a mojor contributor to the failure of IT projects. The typical young "techie" is technically brilliant and in love with the technoilogy & new toys. When it comes to understanding people & organisations you can't put an old head on young shoulders. I have been in the industry for over 40 years and am constantly amazed by the naivety of top management in placing so much responsibility on technically competent but commercially inexperienced IT professionals. IT isn't just about technology, it's about implementation and management of change and minimisation of risk.

same thing happened in the company I work for. Customer data from the days of DOS and Lotus were needed to make projections...guess what? we called in DOS guru. But thats not the point. The point is that time makes things better for those who use it well, and worse for those who don't. Any old geek still in the industry shows s/he is worth their pith. If you can't handle the heat of IT, you get worn out and out-competed, so you shouldn't be worried about grannies in the industry, coz its survival for the fittest. If they are still there, then they are good enough to be there!

Young Pup Punks like you don't even know how much of DOS is still in the OS you are using ... let alone how much better the OS you are useing will run if you knew how to tweak the DOS part of the OS you ARE using. How often do you have to reinstall or restore the OS you are using? I am over 40 but not yet 55 ... I use my OS every bit as much as you and likely stretch its' limits well beyond anything you have done. I can not remember the last time I was forced to restore or reinstall an OS on any of my personal systems. All because I have a deep, detailed understanding of DOS which gives me insight a punk like you couldn't possibly have with your rejections of wisdom you;ll never have as long as you do not honor your elders with this kind of talk and treatment.
Perhaps us old geeks should adopt and more often practice the reverse of what you enspouse ... partial birth abortions on babies like yo with your limited intelligence and wisdom potential.
Grow up ... get past your adolecent contentiousness and rebelliousness else you will not recognise that you have not grown wise if you ever pass 40.

The point is that time makes things better for those who use it well, and worse for those who don't. Any old geek still in the industry shows s/he is worth their pith. If you can't handle the heat of IT, you get worn out and out-competed-you die a natural death, unless you relocate to the country side and bully illiterates, so you shouldn't be worried about grannies in the industry, because its survival for the fittest. If they are still hunging in there, then they are good enough to be there! Hire them-unless you're scared they'll out-shadow you!! are you?? Tell!

Experience in any industry is a valuable asset.

DOS is not dead. It is still a very useful tool.

And lets face it. The young are unreliable, foolish, rash and quite often do not think before they act. Often resulting in costyly mistakes being made,

Robb - you are being rude and disrepectful to your older colleagues. People in the it industry ( over 40's) tend to stick to the job and don't give up easily on problems unlike you younger guys. Granted it may take us a bit more time to resolve the issue but at least we listen to what the problem is and then resolve it permanently rather than the quick fix. Unfortunately it seems that a lot of employment agencies agree with you and won't hire the older experienced people thus forcing us older people out of the industry

They used to rip the skin off your back and write the message in your own blood!!

Robb

I hope when you hit maturity, you find yourself at the receiving end of this sort of crud - you might learn something then.

As a 48 year old, working in IT, the only reason I struggle to keep up with things is because I don't have the time - I'm too busy being the entire IT department and having to know all the software in use in the organisation. I don't have time to sit and read as much as I ought to - but it doesn't mean I can't cope with change. Apart from anything else, if I can find a new trick to make my life easier, it is all to the good.

Secondly - us more mature guys don't all prattle on about the improtance of DOS. DOS is just one tool - and some things an be made easy with DOS. A lot of things can't - but there are other tools for those.

Thirdly - a few years back I was working in an organisation where there were several wonderful young whizz kids working on the helpdesk. They got a call from one of the guys I generally suported, while I was out of the office. He couldn't log in to the Novell server. The problem was batted back and forth between the two of them for some time, they had people in the caller's office climbing over desks to change network cables - but they couldn't solve the problem. So they escalated it back to me to sort, when I got into the office. It took me less than five minutes - and most of that was reading the problem. His password had expired, and he was locked out. I reset his account - end of problem. These two young, enthusiastic helpdesk people had missed one vital fact - their caller could get a response from the server, so it obviously wasn't a physical connection problem.

So Robb - IT isn't an industry for the young - it's one for the intelligent.

I don't know. Maybe his best work was behind him. But he would still rate a seat at my dinner party, even if he couldn't cut JAVA like a spotty faced graduate.

On the other hand bad engineers get old too. Maybe they just find more inventive ways of covering their Rsses. Exhibit "A" Wally from Dilbert.

So on balance the problem probably isn't the age of the material you are working with, it's the fundamental nature of the material itself.

So I'd have to say you should sack all the fools, not just the old fools. ;-)

That means when your are 40 years old you will change your career or take early retirement and leave the IT industry for young people.

As a 55 year old with 27 years of software experience who was taken on as an employee by my current employer a mere 9 months ago I would like to ask Robb a few questions: Is he familiar with the instruction set of any processor? (I'm familiar with over 10) Has he written an operating system from scratch? (I have) Has he interfaced a computer to control motors, solenoids and other real-world mechanisms? (I have) Would he know how to? Yes, it's all very well knowing the latest techniques as promoted by the academic computing fraternity but when it comes down to real fundamentals such as writing drivers to interface with real hardware give me an oldie any day. Seriously, what REALLY counts isn't age but attitude; if you're set in your ways and unwilling to take on-board new ideas, it doesn't matter how old or young you are, you're past it. If you're full of interest and enthusiasm for what the future holds, again, age is irrelevant and the world is your oyster.

as to post an article like that.
We'll see if you're still in IT in 20 years and therefore have proven your ability to adapt to new technology.
If you haven't, we'll you just be dropped by the IT job market never to return to it. Like you said, it's very much a one way street.

Your ability to adapt largely depends on your understanding of IT in the first place. If you're unable to go beyond average-joe graphical user interfaces and understand how it actually works inside the box then soon you'll be selling burgers at Mc Donalds and poisoning America by the same token.
There's a lot to say for people that understand a compiler, a file, the working principles of an OS, the ISO layers of a network etc etc. Is there enough time for these boring things in a modern College IT curriculum?
If you're extremely bright and gifted for IT and get the best possible IT education (your parents must be pretty well off), you will understand these fresh out of college. If you're "only" bright it will takes you a few years of practice in the industry to get your head around some of those things properly.
If you're not too bright, you'll still have a chance to have a carreer in IT change management, purchasing, help desk and that kind of stuff. You can also become a succesfull Volvo sales person and sell those expensive cars to older successfull well paid bright IT professionals.

If you think dos is dead, then you obviously don't work in IT, so you don't need to worry about us over 30's anyway!

If you want to see why ageism is a good idea, look no further than motor insurance premiums.
Insurance for the young, especiually men, is astronomical because they're statistically more idiotic than older people.

Robb - what exactly is it that you think younger people bring to the IT world? A daring attitude? Willingness to take risks? An exciting time? ask a network administrator how exciting he'd like his time to be. I bet the reply is "I want peace and quiet".
You seem to think your generation is the first to get involved. Congrats on feeling that way, but I'm afraid you're not. Been there seen it done it, doing it some more.

In the past I've had it demonstrated to me time and time again that an experienced software developer is worth 20 fly-boys.

ps
well really! it seems Robbs posting has provoked a lot of response. Could it be the 'Julie Burchill' syndrome of posting something ridiculous to get more interest going?

At age 57 I started my Master of Sciences in Information Technology Management. I completed last month at 59 years old! Am I old? Not a chanche, I am as advanced, if not more than most of all the NEW graduated in IT coming into the industry. The title of my thesis was: "The alignment of IT department with company objectives", On my research I found very interesting factors and the first one is that the IT managers are not educated enough! Surely they can punch codes faster than me but are the right codes? I have a nice poster in my office it says: Funny how we never have enough time to do it right BUT always enough time to do it over! I always tell my team: Do it right first time! This is the difference between experience and inexperienced people. I wish there should be more "aged" people to teach the youngsters and inexperienced how to walk.

I am not young enough to know everything.
Oscar Wilde

15 years ago, when I was 28 I was told that I was too old for the computer industry. I am still in the industry, having gone self employed in order to survive by avoiding such corporate crap. I think that older people can have better people skills, be more patient (I certainly am than I was 20 years ago) and have more humility.

I disagree with your post. I'm a 23 yr old Support technician, been in the trade near 7 years. I've never worked with anyone who is quite as old as you say. but.... what are you going to do when YOUR 40. will you have learned another trade by then? if you haven't, aren't you going to be stuck in the same boat moaning about all the young ones running everything. I do agree with it, the older generation take longer picking up new things, but what else can they do?

especially in IT support, where it's near impossible to become a millionaire, you can't retire. and your pension is hardly going to support you, and you don't even get that til 60.

i'd leave it be, and let them get on with it.

Im 33 and in the IT industry and I still use DOS (command shell) for things like PING TRACERT and COPY ... sometimes is just easier.

I also remember punched cards, 8" floppys (not just 5.25" ones), magnetic tape, and multi-part ribbon printers.

I wonder how you will feel when you know you have alot of tech
knowhow and life skills that baby geeks do not have and are
pushed onto the unemployment heap because your interviewer
thinks people over 40 are senile. In the uk it is illegal to
discriminate on age grounds - plus today's 25 yr old is now
expected to work until they are 70+. Perhaps you will be rich
enough to retire at 40 - lets hope so because someone could
think the same about you!

IT is an occupation for those who know what they are doing, rather for those who desperately want to show that they can do it too.

The reason that "IT" appears to be an occupation for the young is that the young IT employee's employer wants to do too much too quickly and too cheaply. The only means of approximately achieving this goal is to employ younger employees, who because of the way things work tend to work for less money.

Speak for yourself when you say oldies struggle with change. As a senior professional software engineer it is still my policy to learn (and use) at least one new programming language a year. Worse still, my extensive experience (at not quite 55 years old, but more than 32 years practice) allows me to devise innovations in programming languages that the youthful and comparatively inexperienced cannot easily take on without committing serious blunders because of that lack of experience.

Incidentally, if you are still using a machine and software where "DOS" forms an important part of some of things that are done, it is important to understand DOS and its deficiencies. (I still think that DOS is a rather crummy copy of older, substantially more sophisticated command environment software, that should never have been viewed as an "innovation". You may gather from this remark that my experience with computers predates the use of the term "IT" and the introduction of the PC, and I do still use DOS for certain purposes.)

Older employees will probably have seen it all before. If they just 'prattle on' they will be annoying, but if they apply their experience they are invaluable.

When multiprocessing manframes were developed it took years to understnad all the implications, and now I see all the same mistakes being made by 'young geeks' who are too arrogant to get the views of experienced experts.

In the 1960s mainframe programming languages were made to prevent buffer overflows. Now the 'young geeks' have failed to follow this in the PC world and the resulting viruses have done billions of dollars of damage.

As for network support, in my experience the best teams have a mix of young minds and mature people who can challenge eachother (without 'prattling on').

I am a so-called oldie, who will turn 55 next month.
I completed a Diploma in Network Engineering last December and topped my Year as well as completing Cisco CCNA 1 to 4.
The idea that the older generation is resistant to change is based on the idea that we are set in our ways.
I have spent the last 35 years in the communications and data area in which change has been the order of the day. When I started in the industry we were still using valves and transistors were the new kid on the block. Computers were only in the hands of large Data Processing Companies and most corporations leased access to them. They occuppied whole floors.
The oldies have the advantage of having seen change and the impact of change, the like of which has not been seen before in human history. The ability to adapt to and accept change has become ingrained in all levels of society.
This present generation is the product of previous generations who built the technology on which the present generation profits.
In conclusion, do not write off us oldies, but learn from our collective experience and possibly a slightly different approach to problems.

It is for the young......isn't it? Forget about it! Who do the young think taught them what they know? Who do they think brought the IT industry where it is at the moment? What fascinates me is that the young always complain about us being old-fashioned, but they never complain about the way babies are being made, and that is very old! Seems to me that they only think it is old-fashioned if they don' like it, or can't improve on it.

But jokes aside, I'd rather employ the older technician in my business instead of one of these young new technicians that seem to think that they know everything there is to know about the IT industry. Many a time I have been saved in a problem by going back to my experience with DOS. (Is it because they don't know it that they complain about it?)

The older person also boast with something they don't seem to have, or believe in, and that is EXPERIENCE!

I agree that there is some of the older technicians that don't seem capable of realising that there are changes underfoot and you have to keep up with them in order to survive, but so I have seen quite a few of the newly qualified techies in my business that just could not make the grade.

So, please don't throw everybody in the same heap and say they are worthless! I object to being generalized about, and my older technicians certainly give me quality service, and (virtually) never rocks up for work with a hangover and lack of sleep after having the time of their life at the latest club or bar!

The key argument of the author is that ?oldies struggle to keep up with change?. Put another way, the author wants to speed up the trend to replace these old people who are losing it. Let us apply this logic to a few others things. Assuming the author of this idea is a guy, and women now represent 55% of the people going to college, the trend would be to give his job to a more qualified woman. For years we have been giving our jobs to people overseas, who make much less money. If we can not give the author of this idea?s job to woman, another logical trend is to give it to a third world worker. Why do we not speed up one of those processes?

An old Rock-n-Roller one said, do not trust anyone over thirty; then he turned thirty. What does the author of this idea plan to do when he turns older?

With logic that is this thin, I think the best option is to dump the author of this idea and keep the older person. It is highly likely the other person has more ability.

At age 57 I started my Master of Sciences in Information Technology Management. I completed last month at 59 years old! Am I old? Not a chanche, I am as advanced, if not more than most of all the NEW graduated in IT coming into the industry. The title of my thesis was: "The alignment of IT department with company objectives", On my research I found very interesting factors and the first one is that the IT managers are not educated enough! Surely they can punch codes faster than me but are the right codes? I have a nice poster in my office it says: Funny how we never have enough time to do it right BUT always enough time to do it over! I always tell my team: Do it right first time! This is the difference between experience and inexperienced people. I wish there should be more "aged" people to teach the youngsters and inexperienced how to walk.

You sir, are a putz. The youth of today is all to eager to jump in and call themselves pros after doing a 4 month "Get a job in IT" course, their enthusiasm is great, but their work ethic, standard, and practises are dodgey, and they are destined to make mistakes.

Now you may think from that reply that I am old, I am actually 25 this year, and as an IT professional I can tell you that the couple of consultants and work-experience guys we've had in over the last couple of years have messed so many things up, and asked "whats that?" and "how do I do that again?" too many times... all of which waste my precious time. Our company, a very large site, will not be hiring these "young guns" again, instead we've looking for older, more experienced people.

As for the 55 year old network administrator... yes, when hiring a network admin, the older person would have to be pretty good to beat the likes of a 30-40 year old person, but it all depends on attitude, experience, and work ethic etc.

Too many young people want big dollars, are afraid of hard work, are very arrogant, and simply don't test thoroughly before deploying etc, which causes a lot of over-time for the likes of me. Not only that but young people - in the quest for glory - will often move on to greener pastures in a short time and not show loyalty to the company. Quite simply, I'd hire a 55 year old over a 22 year old any day of the week.

And further, if 90% of IT professionals don't use DOS or even know what it is... that must explain all the unpatched, virus-ridden, spam-relay servers out there. I spend a majority of my day using CLIs on both linux and MS servers. 90% of all the really good admin tools for both *nix and MS products are command line, and not using them and relying on the bloated, crash-prone GUI stuff is just plain stupid.

Quite simply... young IT people suck, command line tools rock, your an idiot.

I have over 25 years of experience in the IT industry. Have worked on all the platforms from old to the latest.

I strongly feel oldies can not be set aside. You have to give the devli the due credit.

Look at it from the experience they bring along,
the analytical skills. Most importantly the maturity and ability to handle customers internal and external.

Todays' youngsters are damn good at mouse click, but many lack the 'know of why'?

Robb,
First of all I would like to say that if you didn't have the older people working in your company...you wouldn't have a company. It was their hard work and knowledge that made the comapany a company in the first place. After was it the young that started the IT industry? How can you take yrs. of experience and toss it out the window? Its' these people that started the industry as a whole in the first place. Do you think that they just get stupid and quit thinking with age?
Where will you be when you are 55?

Thank you for your time

mSn

As an old techie I stay up to date with the latest technology. Where I work there are young people and we support Windows going back to NT which has been around longer than both of our new techs. My previous employment we were using the latest versions of Windows and Windows Server 2003. I brought the argument of upgrading to a more significant level because of the problems we are having. So, there is a great need for "Older Techies"

Roger,
I agree with you 100% well said.

Since nobody in the world recommends knowing DOS, you must be talking about knowing how to use the command prompt. If you don't think that's important, perhaps you should get a job in an ammusement park, and leave the complicated stuff to those of us with experience.

Mr. Foreman,
This is what I am talking about...many of the old ways that have saved and paved the way for the new are being lost. Sure this kid may have a bright idea..but what happens when it all goes awry and its back to the old codes and nobody can even code but just talk about it...
Good luck I say...

that is where they want to be. See that is the problem. Companies want to keep employees in the roles they see as benefitting the company the most. What about what the employee wants as a career path. If you really want to keep that expert, and they want to be a supervisor, then have them train their replacements (yes plaural) and then promote them or provide the opportunity at least for them to lead.

By training their replacements, they learn something of leadership, management, and supervisory skills and can re-evaluate if they want that promotion. Just some food for thought.

I've been in IT for 30 years so if someone younger wants my job they're welcome to it. I'd personally rather being selling coffee at Caribou...

So what are YOUR plans for a career change after your 40th birthday? (buy a Volvo?..never!)

Brian -- I think you hit the nail on the head. It usually comes down to the almighty buck.

Love the subject line. Good point, too. Training alone does not make a good engineer.

I've been in this business since the days of the IBM/360 mainframes. Today I not only perform high-level analysis and manage "young" programmers like Robb, I also teach them at a local University. Forget the technology (Windows, UNIX, etc.) - they can get that in High School. My biggest challenge is teaching them how to THINK for themselves. That is something seriously lacking in guys like Robb. They can do the technical stuff - probably better that I can. After all, that's what why companies hire them. Corporations keep the older guys because they can do the THINKING for guys like Robb. (BTW - how old is the guy who gives Robb his assignments, hmmm??)
One last thing - I hope this thread is archived. I'd like to get it out in 20 or 25 years when Robb is caught in a "reduction-in-force" at age 50 or so, and complains about the "younger" guys getting all the good jobs....

I have been doing this for about 13 years now. I have a guy in my office that has been a database analyst and programmer for about THIRTY YEARS. The diff between him and I is this: he's a d-base guy AND THAT'S ALL. He knows DATATEL AND THAT'S ALL.

Now, me: I'm 37, and I have exp in systems maint, design, analysis, administration; network admin, analysis, design, engineering,; telecom . . . shall I go on?

Point being, don't box yourself in! I do mulitiple platforms, hardware and OSes and have certs up the wazoo. I DO NOT have an IT "degree" and almost have my M.S. in Organizational Management Science.

The guy that I work with who has 30 years of proprietary experience MAY be able to get a job SOMEwhere else if he ever needed to leave here.

Me, on the other hand. I could slide into most jobs ANYWhere.

Experience counts. I think that ppl hire the young because they are pliant and determined and have tons of energy. That's great, but eventually, you're gonna need someone to LEAD these younger ones so that things actually get DONE!

Now, the main problem here is that you are narrowing your options because you can have legions of soldiers, but not so many seargents and captains and generals. So, there is where I believe the crux is.

Competition is pretty fierce now. If you are looking into getting in to entry-level, young is probably better. But if you are seeking high-level management or lead positions, EXPERIENCE will be key. Age and longevity will get you that.

And let's all face it: the big bucks aren't in the low-level entry positions. They're at the LEAD.

Younger managers that are unsure of their own abilities often shy away from hiring more seasoned staff.

You need to focus on the contribution the person will make to your company.

And drop a fully loaded Compaq 8500 (or similar) server on his head.

'Our industry indeed'

And I see he's never noticed that 70% of Windows Reskits most handy tools use that silly old 'DOS'

Or should that properly be called a 'Command Line' (look it up sonny ... )

Not to mention *ix/VMS/MVS et al ...

Viva la Old Geeks ... at least we understand what is happening under that GUI ...

What a twat.

All I need now is a job that actually wants and values my experience and hopefully I won't have to endure another stupid and innacurate 'Behavioural Interview' administered by some equally witless 12 yr old in HR someplace.

To extend this out a little since when did what used to be 'Personnel' get to wield such inordinate power, to the extent of preventing mangers from hiring the person(s) they want and not even having to say why ?

Am I alone in my utter disdain for the HR Nazis ???

Any ideas chaps ?

The reality of the discussion shouldn't be soley based on age! Now a days the question isn't how old you are its what you know and what generation are you in? Now I do believe you can teach an old dog new tricks; however you cannot teach that dog new ways of doing things. For eample troubleshooting is almost an art form and sometimes the old way or "shotgun" way of troubleshooting doesn't always work. Trying to change the way someone does something is like trying to stick a USB cable into a V.35 connection, this will not happen!

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you must work in a hell of a messed up place. But realize that your (probably very limited) workplace experience doesn't reflect reality at most companies. Where I work, we have IT folks aged from 20 to 55 (I'm 41). And yes, I'd rather be working with the 55 year-old than the 20 year-old. I can't tell you how many times I've saved the butt of someone younger by showing them something that makes them more efficient, or pointing out a critical omission they made.

As for DOS, are you kidding me? An IT staffer who doesn't know DOS would be like a one-armed soccer goalie - only partly effective & never able to do the best job. DOS begat many of today's current OS command line commands. Simple example: if I ask someone younger to get me a file listing of a directory, you know what I get? A few printed out pages of explorer screenshots. They don't even know how to do simple DIR listing and redirect it to a file. Now THAT'S what's pathetic. They're lost without a GUI.

You're too young to know what you don't know yet.

I definitely fit into the category this young pup. There is a thing called "Experience" which gives perspective, depth of knowledge, and vision. The "young" have no experience to draw from. Their knowledge base is limited.
I learn new things everyday, I work with state of the art applications everyday. I is really sad that you dont know what DOS is, history is one of the best teachers, ever hear of 'making the same mistake twice'
I also drive a 2005 Mustang GT.

Response to quote of:
The oldies struggle to keep up with change. It's a natural consequence of aging. They prattle on about how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore and 90% of current IT folk don't even know what it is!

It all depends on your background, and what you have learned.

AR = Accounts Receivable - Add Register
DOS = Disk Operating System - Denial of Service
TOS = Tape Operating System - Terms of Service

Probably too many to mention here, but you get the idea, OLD or NEW, you just have to know "who you are talking to".

I have worked on TUBE systems (yeah that old), up through transistors (kept backup decision switches in my desk draw, they were mechanical interiors which broke when flexed too much). Then we go on to "solid state" and "micro-code" which you use Assembler (or a higher level language) to control the program. Real glad when that occurred, no more bloody fingers from pushing wires into hard to reach spots (or cleaning off bloody connectors before testing).

For most of you, little has changed in this area since the advent of disk and tape. The idea then was to store DATA on disk or tape, but since then, PROGRAMS have been added to this area too. That has changed into a VIRTUAL storage area, swap file, cache, etc. The biggest change was the addition of REGISTERS, (not available on wired up boards).

Physical changes have improved the performance from the old tap-tap-tap of the telegraph, to the ring-ring-ring of the teletype machine. ACK and NAK are still used, timing has improved from seconds to NANO-seconds, and the GLASS replaced by SILICON. Due to the advent of the LASER, many new devices have been employed from TRANSMISSION (line of site) to the CD or DVD recorder/player.

The code base still relies on a BASIC INSTRUCTION SET no matter how you look at it. Whether it be a ROUTER or DISK DRIVE, you have to follow the RULES and code for TIMED instructions. GATES (not Bill) are still the most important feature of the code, they handle the switching of the operation from Yes to No, or for newer technology MAYBE. The "time it takes" to switch from one to the other, be it a GATE or TRANSMISSION, results in the speed/performance you obtain. Mess with the timing, and duck, it gonna blow up/fail/blue screen/reboot.

If the "old timers" spend the time to keep up-to-date, then you can bet that they are more knowledgeable than the newer devotees to computer technology. Hacking (hey, we used to call that DE-BUG-ING)...only way to check the "timing and what happens next".

I will have to admit that there weren't that many ASSEMBLER or FORTRAN programmers in comparison to the other languages, and fewer micro-code programmers.

Back to the original question: WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?
I still have to laugh when Java first came out. A year later the organizations were looking for "qualified applicants, with 5 YEARS experience..." same for some of the other languages or application compilers.
If the applicant understands the BASICS, no matter how old, you have a possible worker, it then becomes a test of whether they can perform or not. Everybody can JUMP, or THROW, but to get a BIG BALL into the HOOP at the other end of the court ... you MUST PROVE IT, or you can't play on my basketball team.

Can someone define the term "troll" for me? Somehow I think it applies here.

Just let one of these young pups try to write a network boot disk to load an image on a clean machine when their pretty GUI isn't available because it crashed. HA! Figure the odds on that.

DOS and us old Farts are like Chevys of old. We just keep on running and running and running. If one of these young pups has the talent to push me out of a job, I'd like to see it. I'll bet I can weave circles around him (or her) in my old Chevy (DOS) and even in VB.

"Go for it," is what I say!

its very sad for a 55yr old to be working as a support person. it says a lot about the intelligence of the person. at that age you should be working as an IT manager or director. its a clear sign of failing in life. after all you cant boast about your dos and mainframe of x486 and windows 3.11 knowledge at this era

depends on the character and person being interviewed.

having an old guy prattle about extinct OSes is not good. But if he has good working knowledge that he has accumulated and PROGRESSED from the original technologies to the current leading edge, yeah, he's good.

Each OS or system has its own defects. Having the ability, as well as the knowledge, to troubleshoot each system shows that this guy has got qualities, otherwise he would not have survived for eg 30 years in the IT market.

However, there is another factor which must be taken into consideration, the country as well as its social aspects.

This means, for example, the Pension (or retirement) age officially considered by the existing government (varies from country to country from 55 to 65). THAT would be one of the most likely things to influence candidate selection.

Secondly. If the candidate has 3 to 4 years to retirement - NO, do not invest in him. It would be time consuming, training costs etc WASTED. Only keep him if he signs for a good (eg 5 year) contract, which will automatically overrule retirement schemas.

I've worked for over 20 years in Telecom and tried to keep myself updated to all the latest and greatest equipment.
I relocated from California to Florida Via WorldCom/MFS in 2000 to help out my mom (father passed on in 1999 ). In California I was involved in installation with letters of recognition and above average reviews.
After a year in Florida they (WorldCom/MCI) put me in a FiberOptic survalence position working with 20 year olds. My complaints fell on deaf ears as this was an entry level position.

I was layoff about 12 months before WorldCom died.

Before the 1`2 months, I filed for age discrimination to which the Florida EEOC said I had justifable reason to file but they couldn't decide to intervene, but said I could hire a lawyer (175/hr).

A compamy pays a youger employee 1/3 of what an older emplyee makes. I younger employee works 7 days a week for 12 hours a shift with no overtime.
I younger employee works without health benefits.

Your the Company who do you hire??

The best thing that happen was I sold all my WorldCom stock while in the survalance job.

I have to admit that I am one of the lucky ones.
I was able to get my training and experience at the same time. I joined the military was trained as a developer and gained experience while getting paid. (Not an experience for everyone, but it worked for me.)

As with any profession it is difficult getting your foot in the door, especially in today's market. Based upon your post, you are starting out on the right foot. You realize that after school there is still a lot to learn about this profession and anyone who thinks that they know it all is in for a big awakening.

The best advice I can give you is be honest with yourself, be honest interviewers, express your eagerness to learn and in the current job market be careful not to price your self out of the market.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting!

Age is not an indicator of technical ability. Never has been, never will be. Whether a candidate is an old geek or a young one, the ability to keep up and excel is all a matter of atitude. Remember that. When I become 55, I will "out-tech" any young geek that happens to think that age is a disease.

This whole ageism thing is just another form of discrimination. I'd hire someone in their 80's if they showed me that they can do the job well. Sure, it would be less likely to find a tech-savvy 80-year-old than let's say a tech-savvy thirtysomething, but in either case, age is not a consideration. And let me point out that for age to BE MADE a consideration is discrimination and therefore illegal.

Young pups in the IT workforce need to wise up. You are aging too. You too will become "old". What do you want done to your IT career when that happens. Think carefully. What goes around, comes around.

Ok, I am 55, and the company I used to work for was sold and I had to find another job at 53, during the worst part of the IT down turn. No problem. What I find is that having built knowledge from CP/M to Windows 2003, Unix, Linux and 15 years as a mixed cluster VMS admin, I run rings around the kids. They may burn fast, but cannot remember or build knowledge. Within 6 months on the new job, I am the go-to guy for just about everything. As the network engineer, also do computer room design, consult for our VMS admins (a job I do not do at this site) and support all the servers. Last, I am the 3rd level support for all the other techs and PBX crew. I forgot more than they know. Do not knock the old guys, they also work smarter, not harder. I am real good, but even I grovel to some even older guys for knowledge at times.

People (like you) who don't have the perspective of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

On the other hand - I make a pretty good living fixing the mistakes of the young, the restless and the clueless.

Hi Robb,

IT is not for the young or the old. It is for beings who adapt well to change and the unexpexted. Those who can see beyond are the ones that excel. So I guess the "old" ones you refer to don't cope well with that but then I've met many young people who have the same trouble.

DOS ??? DOS means disk operating system. XP, Linux,etc. are all DOS's and much more. You see we still use DOS it's just that it has new names and expanded capabilities.

That's were experience helps. You see the underlying patterns, the basic forms - the surface changes but the essence does not.

Interviews??? I interview those you want me to do work for them. I've never had any problems.

Hey, it's fun being young...you can prattle on making broad generised statements about everything even though you really have very little of a clue about what is going on. I was young once and did the same. Robb, enjoy growing up and revel in the joy of discovery with an open mind!

Best wishes,
Mike

I am a 58 year old IT professional. I began as a programmer in 1972 and I have witnessed all of the changes in the personal computing industry. Recently I completed my training and obtained my MCSE in Windows 2003 Server. Currently I teach Computer Service and Repair (A+) and Networking at a Vocational School. My experience and understanding of the evolution of personal computing helps me prepare young IT professionals to adapt to both the present and the future. I work with many young professionals and find that their lack of knowledge regarding the history of personal computing restricts their imagination and vision. As in all aspects of life: where we came from quite often predicts where we will go.

why draw the line at age ?
hell lets go for gender ?
those women are useless - should be at home looking after kids
and while we are at it, lets choose race?
those ignorant so and so, we british know better
and lets choose social background and education.
i went to oxbridge so i should know better than any of you.
and last but not least lets choose disabilty, let stop pandering to these incomplete people that we don't even have the courage to look in the eye when are dimissive of them.

why... why.. ?
because the enlightned amongst know better than this period. And like i said in the title
Grace Hopper, too old, wrong gender everything.
googlise and learn.

I wrote my first basic programs on an Apple IIC, and TRS-80. My first PC I booted with DOS 3.11. I've managed VAXclusters, and learned about Ethernet back in the mid-80's. I've basically grown up with computers in my life. Now I'm 40, and I have the luxury and insight of perspective. I don't think I can say anything that hasn't already been said. However, I have to put my 2 cents in.

1) I was forced to hire a 50 y/o when I was a 26 y/o VAX system/network manager. The guy was a disaster! His issue, I believe, was that he learned IT late in life. He just didn't "get it." (Know what I mean?) In his case it was ability, not his age.

2) You said, "The oldies struggle to keep up with change." Why do the old people struggle to keep up? Are they so inherently stupid that they simply can't learn? Isn't, by the nature of a fast changing technology, everyone required to be in constant learning mode? Personally, that is one of the reasons I love IT, I'm ALWAYS learning something new.

3) Older people have seen things that you simply haven't had enough time to see. You may have passed every cert. there is to take, it still ain't real world experience. NOTHING takes the place of that! NOTHING!

4) You really showed how stupid you are with this post. You can't see it now...but wait 10, 15, 20 years, you will. Believe me, because I used to think like you.

Right on, ckoupal !!
Adam should go back to school, or church, or to a cave. When will
people learn that age, race, color, religion, sex, national origin,
disabilities, should not enter into the selection of competent
people? The IT field is already over-populated by white males --
don't feed the bigotry, please. Hire on ability.

It isn't the age Robb, it's the combination of experience, skills, and results. First, everybody wants experience in their specific technical niche, whether you're 18 or 80, and if you don't have it you're overlooked. Second, everybody wants skill sets that match their hardware, software, and operating system. Your resume gets piled in a stack first depending on your Degree level, then sifted by skill set, and finally by experience. Third, everybody wants results, Robb, and no matter how much code you've memorized or how well you can traverse COM, API, XML, Windows, Red Hat, Unix, or IPSec, if you don't produce RESULTS on time and within budget -- you're just another GEEK on the STREET!
The good news is, Robb, that you seem to have a great job, you're at the top of your game, and you're current with the technology.
The bad news is, Robb, that there's only so many top jobs, everyone coming up is looking to replace you, and the technology never ever stays the same (sometimes taking surprising leaps in unforseen directions).
So, have fun and enjoy your work, Robb. But resist the urge to splurge, put you well earned salary toward aggressive investments that is geared toward letting you retire at 35, and most of all -- keep learning and growing.
If you want to talk further, just send me an e-mail because I'm not retiring -- too boring.
Lucky
IT Manager
Financial Institution

As an oldie, minority female who entered this arena in my mid 30's, built a multi-million business in my 50's; dragged my kickin' and screaming 30-someting staff into the tech age only by re-assigning all secretaries and forcing management to learn their own computers, I suggest you take another look at vintage resources.

Smart enought to make mistakes and LEARN from them. Age has nothing to do with that. It's all about ability, determination sheer stick-to-it-iveness.

Speaking as one of the "over 40" I think rings around the "young pups". I can, and do, frequently answer questions in the dead of night without fully waking up - that's how well I know my stuff. Coming up during the time when pride was taken in a job well done, I wouldn't want to be one of the younglings today. Most are all brash and flash - no depth.

No offense, but I still learn just as quickly as I did when I was younger. I pick up things faster than people half my age. With Age and experiance comes patience. That's something young people don't seem to have - at least not the ones I'm aquainted with.

Here here!

Don't temp me mate!

You have the right smiley, that is for sure.

Robb

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

I spend 20 years of my life in the food service industry in some position of management. At 42 I decided to enter the IT field and was lucky enough to actually move over with my current employer. In the last seven years I have become responsible for our LAN/WAN with 80 remote sites, manage the firewall and IDS equipment. I have several cert's - MSCE, MSCE + Internet, MSCE Security, CompTIA A+, Linux+, Security+, SANS GSEC, GCGW, GCWN, CISCO CCNA, CCNP and about to finsih the CCDA and start on the CCIE. My goals including getting the RHCE and the CISSP. And I am about to celebrate my 50th birthday! So you youngsters out there better watch out!

I love your responses mate.

Keep it up, you have a ton of good stuff in there.

Articulate and eloquent. You don't have that at 35. At least, I didn't.

Robb

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Aint't that the truth.

UKOK

Robb