Ageism? Good Idea?

I prefer to read about other's bad experience to get good judgement when the opportunity arises

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Hey, Robb! You really know how to stir thing up! You did a wonderful job of raising everyone's blood pressure. But, you are right. So many employers feel that younger is better. Boy, are they in for a big shock!

Thanks for the excitement!

.
Don't you think?

In the customer service industry, we say that a good experience will be communicated to maybe two people. A bad experience will be communicated to twelve or more.

Please be assured that I will report your musings on Techrepublic to any appropriate authorities in the uk. Moreover, I will tell my journalist friend in the Daily Mail (read by the over 50's - for those that exist outside the UK) what you think of those whose lives have only just started....(think about it).

While you have a right to free speech in this country, your customers should also have the right to take their business elsewhere, given the discriminatory nature of your post. Perhaps I'll write to some military installations in your area (for there are many), and enlighten them of your views.

One wonders if this is your only discriminatory view. Perhaps you voted for the BNP...

That is precisely the problem with the world today, the attitude of some younger people. The want it now pay for it later - don't care who we step on just as long as we climb the ladder age.

There seems to be a definite lack of respect for those who have been around long enough to have gain some knowledge and a whole lot of building blocks.

I don't have a problem keeping up with the technology of today but that is because I build on the technologies I already know. I do have a problem with eager, corner cutting, procedure breaking, security lacking young folk that think they know it all.

We don't insist on all the mundane tasks like testing and restores because we are sticks in the mud. We insist on these things because we have lived through system crashes etc.

The building blocks that we have slowly learned and accumulated help in troubleshooting and problem solving.

...I'm already in charge of hiring new IT people. To be fully honest, I am very reluctant to hire anyone under 25.
The general rule of thumb is "The older an employee is, the better." I've learned that older employees are more responsible, punctual, and experienced. Not to mention that these "old-guys" also accept constructive criticism in more positive ways.
To answer the question, if the 55-year-old meets the requirements for network tech. support, I would gladly hire him/her.

?For the young?? How about young thinking- agile thinkers that solve problems in networks that you most likely would consider extremely bewildering. How about people that are the ?go to person,? because their wealth of knowledge surpasses any online database? How about working with people that are not mesmerized the latest and greatest shiny thing that the next vender salesperson waves in front of their face?

?Would I employ a 55 year old?? If the person is qualified, both technically and being able to work with people, yes, yes I would in a hot second! And you own a training company!?!?! Well at least I know my position as a consultant and trainer educating people in computers is secure.

Finding people who can work with and train a diversity of people and not tick them off is important, even critical. Do we really need more IT people with arrogant, sanctimonious holier than thou attitudes towards a group of people, any group of people to which they obviously have no knowledge, but jump off the deep end into unwarranted criticism without thinking?

PS. Yes, I know DOS and still use it when I have to get directly into the file system underneath the GUI to fix something. While some other IT people sit scratching their heads on how to fix the problem. It is called line commands, what the pros use. You might try it sometime.

Figured it had to be an "OLDIE"
Us oldies have a natural reaction for the new since it is based on the old....

I have news for the young hotshot that submitted this crap.
I am a 51 year old man, and I will match my expertise, and witt, with yours any day.
It is because of young know-it-alls, like you, that the computing world has the flaws that it has. History is an excellent teacher, even for modern technology.
My advice to you is to stop and read the EULA, and quit patting yourself on the back!

Hey, at least we don't have to cycle through boot options with switches. ReIPLing was a bummer.

How many times have you had to go back to salvage information off a 'legacy' machine, generally using serial protocol. Now 'legacy' means pre-SP2 and if the transfer wizard doesn't work....

In this field, old is 20 minutes ago. An old way of thinking can materialize in a 24 year old, or never be contemplated by a 58 year old. The more you adapt, the easier it is.

I just wish I had more use for my soldering station....

An attitude like is called DISCRIMINATION.

Change is a natural phenomenon. It is inevitable but always met with resistance. Old versus new seems to be a matter of choice. Albeit the Y2K was overblown, one can only imagine where we would be if some of the old COBOL programmers had not come out of retirement?
After ten years of study, some 170+ college credits chasing the opportunity to qualify for an IT career, I'll have to admit I may have slowed some since I first began. I look around at the shelves of books on technology that have come and gone and realise that the concepts in IT really are fundamentally the same. The tools we use change and we must learn the new tools. Change companies and you'll likely work with different tools. So basically it is not a matter of whether you are old or young but whether or not you are up for the challenge and able to change with the technology. This is afterall a career that requires a commitments to a lifetime of learning.

At 60 years old, I was born with the atomic age - 1945. Too young to be a beatnik, too old to be a hippy - and now there is some question as to whether or not I'm really a baby boomer- sheesh.

The real problem is that us old guys should have the grace and wherewithall to go sit in the shade and let things move along, but we don't. We still like to be involved in the thing we started, Computing machines, other neat little technologies like rocket science and space travel.

We should be looking at the cultural imperatives that force this kind of contrived age competition to find new ways to take advantage of both youth and experience. Ah, welll... hey kid go for it. And If you have time, bring me another glass of tea!

If you're serious, you'd better watch your back! Some of those over 55 are a little sensitive about ageism. After making millions, no BILLIONS, for our Fortune 500 employers by coming up with elegant and efficient information systems with difficult products and tools and then being laid off only to find a year or two later the company is hiring kids with 3 years experience for 1/3 the salary, we get quite testy!
Of course, we live in a capitalistic system where the only goal is more money. So, why should anyone expect anything less. Just remember that you will be in the same boat someday, if you live that long! Just watch what you say in front of certain people, ok?

Such a young whippersnapper!
Who's struggling? You or us 'Oldies'? If you 'don't give a toss' about DOS, then I guess you and the other 90% of current IT folk never use command-line in WinNT, Win2K, WinXP?
What kind of Network support can you provide, working with such ignorance? Unix or that open-code pseudo-Unix? Why would I pay you for that?
There are two kinds of fool in the world:
The first one says "This thing is old, and therefore good"
The second one says "This thing is new, and therefore better"
The wise person says "This thing is judged on it's own merits."
The only thing you have going for you is that you are probably cheap.

I'm in the > 55 group and I agree with your assessment of many young programmers having no depth with some exception. Many of the young programmers I've seen from the areas of Madris, Bangalore, Bombay, etc. are very earnest in producing good code and learning good technique.

Although, philosophically, I'd prefer they weren't here in the US taking many jobs for less money and driving our salaries down. It's nothing personal, I find several of my closest coworkers are here on their H1B.

I am 52, female and a computer repair tech for a school district. Not only can I keep up with what I need to learn for my job, I also have a work ethic that is missing in the younger generation. I am not interested in online games, IMing, or any other time wasting tech gadgets. I do my job, have good people skills (lots of younger guys don't have that quality) and make sure that the machines are set up properly to keep maintenance down. Proud to bea wrinkly...........however I don't look my age.

Sometimes the book examples don't seem real to me... they are almost too pat, too perfect. You are absolutely correct when you say real life doesn't follow the book. It never has and never will, in ANYTHING. Most boxes, by their very definition, are limited and narrowly defined. How can a best possible solution be found if you only have a narrow scope in which to view it?

Interesting how things never change. Some punk, fresh out of Joe's Comp-u-college thinks he knows it all . . .I bet you think that you and your peers invented drinking and screwing on Friday night, lol.

There is no magic in this business. It's just a job, and one will get better at it with experience if one has the interest and basic aptitude.

As already pointed out, the trend to hire younger people is a simple financial truth. They are cheaper.

I'm almost 59 years old. I can assure the writer that I welcome change and have not struggled to keep curent.

However, what really surprises me is the obvious ignorance on the writers part of a very important federal labor law. It is known as the Age Discrimination In Employment Act (ADEA).

This law prohibits any employer from discriminating against anyone who is over 40 years of age. This includes both existing employees and in the recruting and hiring of new employees. The law is generaly a part of any company's Afirmative Action Plan.

Failure to comply can mean very stiff financial penalties to the employer.

Does anyone know how old Einstein was when he developed most of his theories?

Then eat the %*#$ book!

csbott posted earler:

help the needy (82 of 634)
I always ask the more seasoned employees around the office if I don't know the answer. Just as the less experienced ask me. I don't think there is any harm in that. It is why the seasoned guy gets paid more than the newbie.

The seasoned person doesn't always make more than the newbie - at least not in Government service. The knowledge and experience that I have compared to my Team members, well, lets just there there is no comarison. Yet, I am the lowest paid. Even though I have expressed interested in doing more in security, I have been repeatedly pigeonholed in application support & tech support simply because there isn't anyone who knows the applications as well as I do. My team members are not even being required to learn the applications so they can provide support. But when the humous hits the fan, I'm the one they call. Do I get resentful? Hell, yeah! Do I get credit for solutions? No. (You're not alone on that one, Colin) Is there pay equity for the jobs performed and the knowledge acquired? No. I make $30,000 per year LESS than the newest member of our team.

They say no one is indespensible, but you couldn't prove it by me, because my phone sure doesn't stop ringing.

You young guys crack me up. If you could learn everything you need to know in school and certification classes there would be no need for the intern positions that are so popular in the industry. The "Old Guys" have more hardware knowledge than we can even try to imagine.
As a middle of the "age" road tech, I am thankful for the "Old Guys", they have saved my bacon more times over the years than I can remember.

I'm 53 and my brain works much faster and more efficiently now than it did at 25. At 25 if I didn't get at least 8 hours of sleep at night, I could hardly work through an 8 hour shift. Now I never get more than 6 hours of sleep per night (usually 4 to 5) and I frequently work 70 hour weeks without getting tired. Everyday, I go through a workout at the gym that I could not have even done at 25 (and I was a body-builder at 25). I can get at least twice as much done per day now as I could at 25, and make less errors. Plus, I have a lifetime of experiences behind me, and a much better attitude. Give me a 55 year-old over a 25 year-old every time.

Unix is still around I don't think dos will ever disappear. Experience says a lot about People as well.

In twenty-five years experience of IT projects, I have not worked
on,nor know anyone who has worked on any project that failed
for technical reasons. Project failures are behavioural failures
casued by people who don't understand how human beings
think and work. And that you don't learn in college.

At least we know that someday YOU'LL be that age also and prattling on about Java, .Net, Windows XP and the like.....just because people have age doesn't mean they're stupid.

One thing you can't stop is time.

I started at age 13.

yep, i'm a 53 yr old techie - and i bet i can run circles around most pups... this is not the only industry where age appears to be a issue...as i see it, the "new" generation has problems, they seem to jump into the frying pan so to speak without really knowing the cause and effect...

I thought it was clear that *both* are essential in equal measure. While knowing how to do the job is necessary, in order to do *ANYTHING* well, one must possess the *DESIRE* to do it well.

Yes, that last sentence is a little vague, yet not every IT position requires the same level of hardware, OS, network, software, code, or USER interaction.

If you want to keep user interaction to a minimum, DON'T do helpdesk or system support!

It's all a matter of getting the right mix.

Sometimes, the exuberance of the young proves to be an important ingredient for achieving quick results.

Otherwise, the house seems to be empty.

Old Techs have something most young ones do not have. Common sense is one thing. And the knowledge they don't know everything. That is more important than is first apparent.
They also don't pull a superiority attitude (well, most don't) which is the mark of an idiot.

-Chris

Next time, read the rest of the posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

I've been "computing" since 1958!

Right on lets put them in IT camps when they turn
30 and gas them.

As someone who is about to turn 53, I am often asking myself "where have all the years gone to so fast". The point being that the date on a birth certificate and how one may look on the outside bears little resemblance to how one thinks and performs. Someone once wrote that the only constant in life is change. Therefore, anyone who hits 55 has experienced far more change than someone who is 25. IT has changed dramatically over the years. By definition, those in IT have experienced that change and adopted what they think are the advantages and improvements. That's hoe they stay competitive. Ipso facto,if they aren't competitive, they drop out. Hell, when I went to school, a computer was something the government did secret stuff on in a windowless secure environment.Anyone over 30 who uses a computer has embraced change and relished it. robb has displayed an ignorance which he will rue when his youth is suddenly a memory. He will still be thinking like a young go-getter, but he will suddenly realise he doesn't look like one anymore and some young geek will scoff at the thought of him being able to keep up. What will robb say then then? he will probably say "what's age got to do with it...?!

Surely you're not arrogant, inexperienced, or immature, are you?

the part that women accuse us of thinking with.

try reading the earlier posts.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

read the earlier posts.

See[v]
https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

try reading the earlier posts.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

I'm to blame.

Can you ever forgive me?

When, that is, they turn to someone else who's NOT ignorant of their needs & how to satisfy them.

The really fun part is when the jilted guy tries to save face with his friends by trying to lay (no pun intended) the blame at the feet of his now former girl friend.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

Noticing the flurry of activity today, 3 things are immediately obvious. The majority of the newcomers:

1) Did not read the posts prior to their's;
2) Did not review your profile before posting; and,
3) Purport to be "older" techies.

Makes one stop & consider that, since these "oldsters" failed to do any preliminary investigation before spouting off, perhaps many of us [i]do[/i] have an age related diminished capacity for critical analysis!

I have seen younger workers, and their work ethic sucks................

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
..

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
..

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
..

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
...

try reading the prior posts; or, perhaps, the postor's profile.

See
[v]https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173272&messageID=1763820[/v]
.

I would like to use stonger words but this is a public forum!!!
I will be 50 in September and worked on my first computer in 1974, yes we had them that long ago!!! Whilst I don't work for a large high tech company it was only a few years ago when I supported all kinds of pcs, networks and servers in my capacity as a field service engineer in the UK. I now live in Canada and run my own home based business attending to the needs of small users and their miniature networks. I try and keep my finger on the pulse of technology but at its current expansion rate I defy anybody, whatever their age, to have in depth knowledge of all aspects of computing. Yes we need our specialists, now as in the days of triodes and pentodes!!! Sometimes however someone with a broader range of knowledge can help keep a system afloat whilst the specialist can only plug holes in his own small field.

I think what older members of the IT community can bring to our ranks is the wisdom of their years, often mixed with a little more patience. Sometimes standing back a second or two and applying some old fashioned fault finding techniques instead of the instant delete and replace attitude which seems prevelant in todays world pays dividends.

I will admit I don't know it all but I am damn sure you don't either young man. Our customers range in age from teenagers to octogenerians operating computers on the biggest network in the world. Many of them seem glad to see an older person when we make our calls instead of some youngster who will click click click and expect them to remember what he/she has told them.

So I say keep the oldies and welcome the youngsters into an industry changing so fast that one day soon will have them explaining to their juniors that a floppy disc was a thing we used to use in the computer world, oh and you would need at least 6 to hold an operating system.

Mick.

not to mention the odor of charred insulation.

God, those days were fun.

Today, mention breadboarding or building a kit will get you little but stares.

Robb several days ago revealed that he had played the Devil's advocate, yet most of you continue to lash out at him as though this fact was unknown.

Furthermore, many of you have been, to put it mildly, less than civil.

Did it ever occur to you to either read the discussion or review his profile [i]before[/v] sticking your feet in your mouths?

Since one would expect such of a rational being, you've left us "oldsters" open to the charge of being unduly hasty to judge, perhaps as a result of our "advanced" age.

Next time, start brain before engaging mouth!

Otherwise, I'm going to have to start lying about my age.

I would love to be around when the young geeks become old geeks and sample some of the BS we are now going through.
Just remember that outsourcing has taken place not because of age, but because of arrogance. IT has developed a bad name, because of loss of respect for customers, instant gratification, etc. We old Geeks have had a few years to mellow out, not slow down. I am guessing that the typical young turk today acts before he thinks. Something you learn not to do the more years you spend in this business. I'm from the newspaper publishing industry. We have a few new IT techs, who routinely destroy machines, software and applications. Instead of doing it right, they will do it fast, and lose it. Certification is only one's ability to take a test. We old geeks never felt the need to prove what we know by a written test. Communicate with the right people and you will get the picture of why I think old geeks do it better.

Though, not by choice!

you might have at least searched for others posts by him and/or reviewed his profile.

After all, are'nt we "oldsters" supposed to be the wiser?

Wow ! You sure know how to ruin it and get all serious when the rest of us folks is havin' a good ol' time moaning ... it's lucky you ain't no 'Party Consultant', best stick with IT why doncha ...

We're just blowing smoke man ... ease up !

I'm not a fresh young myself (and i'm only 29 :),
but here @ work, i've a colleage who will retire in 2 years.
As a lot of the tools we are working with are evolutions of the past, and as the so called revolutionnary concepts are just logical change of the rest, yes, it's good to have someone who has been there.
You do things geek way, then you find him looking over your shoulder :" did you have thought about..." and he open your eyes on certain things you could know because of your lack of experience, not on common task, but for critical issues.
It's always good to know that you can ask someone who has nothing to prove, but still remains commited to his work, and has a 'cold minded' view on things.

And, dear sire, it's not DOS the thing to know, it's the idea of command line, a powerfull way to work even on the latest windows 2003 server.
What your wise guy was trying to tell you, but you were too selfego'ed of your youth to understand or listen.

-----Flame end :)

I Completely Disagree with wht Mr Rob had said. For Network Support its fine not to select a candidate of age 55. Thats fine but say for the post of a very much experienced consultant you can not go on and take a young fellow.

Experience always helps up in situations. You may not be getting that in daily routine but when it comes to tough times experience stands out.