General discussion

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  • #2285618

    Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing


    by orpheum ·

    Hoorah! and a round of applause for techrepublics netnote email which must have reache a couple of million people. Now I truly understand what happened. When you give MIS’s resources (excel spreadsheets woohoo!) on how to go about outsourcing to cut costs and reduce budgets, the jobs are not outsourced outside the American companies to other consulting firms in the US- THEY’RE LEAVING THE COUNTRY!!! US consulting operations in the Tech Supp industry are at a screetching halt and have been closing up shop since 2002. Have you not heard the cries and woes in the general world of American IT professionals at the blue and shade-off white collarlevel ?????????????????????????????!!!!! We’re bankrupt here – Some of your fine members and subscribers have not had a job in months, some since 9/11!!!!! I think it was utterly irresponsible and slightly foolish to give the executive powers such a destructive tool to continue destroying our IT workforce(or what’s left) and our general economy!! Did you know that IBM has a VERY VERY LARGE training center in INDIA!! which tutors the already veteran Tech Support department there on the American accent and lingo so that IBM’s customers won’t distinguish them and recognize this tragedy already in transit for four and a half years???!!! We’re too busy here trying to keep ahead of India in learning technologies and discovering research and dev which have been built and already implemented in overseas tech-labs. Now we’re sending emails to more US based corporations to ‘tip them off’ on how to cut more corners in their IT depts and ‘outsource’ more jobs away – WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?!?!?!?
    How about sending an email to some wives and children around the country explaining why they’re cost of living or mortgage is not in great harmony with their breadwinners’ industry and suggest they move to Bombay/Mumbay??!?!?!?!

All Comments

  • Author
    • #3382001

      how many cnet jobs?

      by freddy2k1 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      how many cnet jobs are outsourced? that’d be a good one to know

      • #2729665

        Great point – cheap shot though!

        by orpheum ·

        In reply to how many cnet jobs?

        Evidently I?m not the only one who feels this email hit too close to home. I wish more of you would stand up for our future or at least challenge corporate America?s suicide in the IT field. We owe it to ourselves to win back our common goals of expecting our stressful (at times nearly impossible) labor and constant recertification be a little more rewarding and secure than the guy/girl who pours your coffee at the local starbucks(btw, thank heaven for starbucks ? they?re keeping our unemployment rate from breaking records ?single-handedly).
        Can?t blame CNet any more than IBM or Cisco though.

        • #2728220

          More of us stand up for our future??

          by tags ·

          In reply to Great point – cheap shot though!

          What?? You think that blasting off email to this technical newsletter alias is “standing up for your future”? You’re just venting. What are you REALLY doing to fight this problem? Are you voting in the primaries? Are you writing letters to your senators and congressman? Are you telling the people who can do something about it? Are you leading demonstrations? This isn’t new since 2001. When I was starting a new project at my company in 2001, we were taking over software development from a team in India. When I was interviewing for a job 2 years before that, that team was using people in India. This is not new stuff. It’s just growing – maybe because it’s working. Maybe because it’s the last straw for companies trying to make a buck. No, it’s not good for us IT people. But, stop venting and get your butt out there and vote. Make yourself heard by the people who can do something about it.

        • #2728213

          Boycott WEB Site

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          So…anyone up for making a boycott web site and picking a target?

        • #2728147

          Good Point Tags

          by thepctech ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          Tags, Sounds like you know something here, so if you don’t mind post a list of persons who will listen. I really would appreciate it, really : ) Lets build America not India. Im tired of the clueless foreigners we employ overseas, large corporate america is not standing by the americans who got them there to begin with. Outsourcing american work hurts americans. We need more jobs here in america,and to think about Our economy and who spends money Here in america. Yes, Im venting. One way to survive in the american IT field is to work for small/medium sized businesses that appreciate what you do and they give you a place to hang your hat. Small/medium businesses appreciate IT more than large corporate businesses.

          Thanks for listening.

        • #2728113

          how to fight back

          by tags ·

          In reply to Good Point Tags

          There are those who think that government involvement is bad but others who think it can help. If you believe in govt involvement, laws that limit work going overseas, etc, then write your congressmen, senators, Senator Kerry, President Bush. If it becomes more than just a trickle of email to these people, they will start to realize that in order to get elected/re-elected, they need to listen. You can find the number for your Senator at

          To choose someone from the House of Representatives, go to:

          I just saw a post for a website at so go there and post your opinion. Maybe someone should create a website with a more professional name that might get the attention of the press and govt representatives. Who listens to bratty children? Also, on this site, provide links to the senate and house and give a sample letter to send. Don’t be bratty in this letter. Be rational. Don’t be angry. Be rational. Show that you care about this nation and that you are going to keep standing up for your rights as an American Adult.

        • #2728092

          Gonna fight back, thanks.

          by thepctech ·

          In reply to how to fight back

          Tags, this discussion thread is all over the place, as it should be, its discussion. You are shedding some real light on a serious subject. I read thru all the rant and raving here and I love it. Thanks, good stuff.

        • #2728043

          Your right… put pressure on your congressman

          by gpernest ·

          In reply to how to fight back

          This is a community issue where the government should step in but is reluctant. Corporations will do as they will as long as it is within the law. Corporate ethics… let’s just say most CEO’s would rather see their mothers in a brothel rather than a shareholder losing a buck.

          The Dobbs report had an article titled “Answers on Outsourcing” written by Rory L. Terry, an associate professor of Finance at Fort Hays State University, that has summed up the situation very accurately. Bottom line was “the US community as a whole will pay for outsourcing”. Here is the link:

          My intent is to do just as you recommended, write my congressmen. I think most congressman want to distance themselves from the outsourcing issue. Sorry mates, time to make a stand. So with that being said, I will simply give them my opinion and site the above article and ask what there opinoin is. And, also state their answers will be reported in an editorial I will write in two months time in the local paper. I they have no comment by then, that will also be stated. If they have a lot to say, they should state where the community can read more on their thoughts.

          I hope I’m not too naive to think a local paper would have the courage to print such an editoral. It’ll be interesting none the less.

          Here’s to “opening the window shade all the way” !

          Greg Ernest

        • #2727969

          Put on the pressure

          by rahcn ·

          In reply to Your right… put pressure on your congressman

          Several States are offering legislation to keep their State Government subcontracted jobs in house. MI Bill Number 4950, 5080 and 5081, MD HB183, IL SB2375 HR4550, CA AB1845 SB1451, 1452,1453, CO SB169, MN SF1792, NY S6040, WA HB3187, WI, MO, KS,CT SB501, SB403 and SB395. Contact your local state representative and State Senator and encourage them to support these bills. The job they save could be their own.

        • #2727970

          fight back

          by rahcn ·

          In reply to how to fight back

          Join others see
          we are a group of white and blue collar workers working together for American Jobs for Americans in America.

        • #2727971

          Join others

          by rahcn ·

          In reply to Good Point Tags

          Grassroots, nonpartisan group of American White and Blue collar workers working together to Keep Jobs in America for Americans. Working with other Pro-labor groups, our voices are being heard.
          Watch for the AFL-CIO sponsored Show US the Jobs National bus tour.

        • #2728126

          Taking Your Work Somewhere Else? Take Your Business With You!!!

          by infoaaa19 ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          We have already started a call for boycott of all companies outsourcing to India. We are also calling for tax measures, that would not give the ability to write off a foreign source as an expense, at least in California. The Website going up is and would greatly appreciate if you could send us copies of your e-mails so we could publish them there.

        • #2669412

          RE: Taking Your Work Somewhere Else? Take Your Business With You!!!

          by scott.917 ·

          In reply to Taking Your Work Somewhere Else? Take Your Business With You!!!

          That is a VERY long list of companies to boycott!

        • #2728118

          What can be done

          by dminaz ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          True, venting is not going to do any good. It can serve to reinforce what a lot of us are thinking but don’t have the opportunity to say. I’d like to know what can be done…who are the people that can do something about it? Let me know and I’ll surely vote for them.

        • #2727968
        • #2730380

          Good discussion! Also to make a difference:

          by tech-trend ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          From what I have read thus far, you folks are on the right track. Businesses will do what they need to do in order to survive. Our government deserves the blame for creating an environment that is hostile to the American middle class and encourages business to set up shop offshore. The “Free Trade Area of the Americas” (FTAA) is NAFTA on steroids and will kill even greater numbers of US jobs. These “free” trade agreements are not fair trade agreements for anybody, especially us Americans. While you are writing those spineless politicians, be sure to insist they click the big CANCEL button on the FTAA scheduled for passage in January 2005. Check for the dirt on it.

        • #2730371

          Stand Up

          by rep001 ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          I think we need to do a lot more then protest or vote to fix this problem.

        • #2730309

          Agree wholeheartedly !!!

          by chaom ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          Well said!

        • #2730077

          How about forming a union?

          by ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          We could be like the teamsters – how hard can it be to drive a truck?

          There is a labor union in Seattle that is trying to organize the Microsofties.
          You could join them. It won’t help now. It will help in the future. We have look long term here.

        • #2729785

          by jeff ·

          In reply to More of us stand up for our future??

          There is a bright spot to some of this outsourcing. We’re gathering great techs on our web site and sending them service calls every day. Some have been laid off but are now building there own businesses. Re-invent yourself and stop complaining. Can not outsource on-site support to India.

          BTW, look around your home and if you see anything that says “made in China” you have only yourself to blame for all this.

        • #2720513

          And now you complain?

          by k_os98 ·

          In reply to

          Your clothes and apparels (Nike, etc) are made by chinese slaves in sweatshops, would you allmighty americans be so kind to work like them?

          or you only want the IT well paid jobs?

        • #2728199

          Put your money where your mouth is…

          by jasoncctc ·

          In reply to Great point – cheap shot though!

          For those of you angry about the latest upper management fad (oursourcing), do you still buy goods and services from those companies that offshore outsource? Are you willing to pay a premium for goods and services “produced” in your nation?

          Asking the government to do something about the situation is a stop-gap measure at best. The much more powerful solution is to hit offshoring corporations where it hurts most…customer base. Don’t buy their goods or services. If IBM or GE loses more money in lost sales than they gain in cost savings shipping jobs overseas, how long do you think they’ll continue on that course?

          The check and balance to shareholder and corporate greed is consumer spending. Consider that the next time you are comparing products based on price.

        • #2728175

          Put Your Money Where your Mouth Is

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Put your money where your mouth is…

          I am willing to pay for the web hosting… of the other users is willing to do some programing. Anyone else willing to put their money where their mouth is?

        • #2727830

          if all food was made overseas…would u starve??

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to Put your money where your mouth is…

          hey – we can’t do without some things buddy. if i were to not own a computer or automobile when my job depends on it – i’d be called an idiot! the country doesn’t do boycotts anymore – only the govt does. but I admire your spirit!
          please look into the matter on the web and see if your vote can make a difference
 is a good start.

        • #2729771

          Americans need buying discipline!

          by jmclain12 ·

          In reply to Put your money where your mouth is…

          I’m coming around to the old union stickers that say “Buy American”. I won’t be buying ALL American (I’m not sure that’s even possible) but I’m making the effort. I’ve quit going to Wal-Mart, they are SO intent on driving down costs that they drive companies out of business. And I’m trying to buy more from locally owned businesses.

          We Americans need to bring more discipline to our purchasing decisions. Let’s do with a little less. As a tangent, that includes spending so much on tickets to sporting events that pay such outrageous salaries to athletes. Let’s spend more money on local plays for another example.

        • #2728005

          more than IT

          by twohlrabe ·

          In reply to Great point – cheap shot though!

          among the first -and worst -was Lucent. in the chicago area they and Motorola have shipped IT and engineering jobs en masse overseas. others follow. Latte Frothing will become a valid degree major at most universities if we continue to allow import and purchase products that we used to design and build from countries where an EE makes $5/hr.

        • #2728620

          how cheap?>

          by freddy2k1 ·

          In reply to Great point – cheap shot though!

          How is it a cheap shot to ask cnet how much they use the advice they publish? I didn’t imply state of industry was all their fault,but if they outsource anything like web dev to Macaroon or content to China, they should come out andsay so.

      • #2729046

        Outsourcing reality

        by yelt62 ·

        In reply to how many cnet jobs?

        I’ve been working in the IT world for more than 15 years and have watched the transformation of the industry. I have seen the ‘outsourcing’ of many functions over time and have been able to adapt or change with the reality. The majority of the work I have seen go to outside ‘partners’ is mundane or inconsequential to the true function of the corporate objective of provisioning information to decision makers in an organization. If it came down to it I wouldn’t be adverse to moving to were the work is if I had to.

        • #2729041

          Is Yelt62 Ready for Bombay?

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Outsourcing reality

          Pack your bags, and try and get a work permit for India. I don’t think really want forgien workers in India.

        • #2729034

          Mumbai or Bust

          by yelt62 ·

          In reply to Is Yelt62 Ready for Bombay?

          I actually have a friend who worked on a major project for me that is there. If I wanted to work in a call center or write code, then sure I would go there. I prefer working with the customer and being a solution provider, not necessarily doing the coding.

        • #2728027

          Employment in India

          by gscutt ·

          In reply to Is Yelt62 Ready for Bombay?

          Unfortunately, desireable employment in India requires fluency in English and/or Hindi….

        • #2728307

          Alternative Missing from the Spreadsheet

          by sagax ·

          In reply to Outsourcing reality

          “Work from Home” is an alternative to sending out the work (often to foreign shores). If the work can be sent to India, it can be sent to the employees home. And many, many Americans would be pleased to make the personal investment in adequate PCs, space in the home, broad-band internet and such (if they have not already done so) to facilitate home work.

          SAVINGS: expensive office space, costly office equiptment, operating expenses (heat, light, janitorial, etc.)

          RISK: Poor work ethic. I have spoken with employers who have “tried” work-from-home. Because of failure to get the work done, the programs were cancelled. The worker must be committed to being at their workstation and taking care or business at least as consistently as if going into the employers workplace.

          TO DO: C|Net should do surveys of both sucessful and unsuccessful work-from-home programs. OK, that has been done, but do it again because things have changed since then. Then add that to the spreadsheet as another alternative.

        • #2728286

          Now you using your strategic skills!

          by jfoster ·

          In reply to Alternative Missing from the Spreadsheet

          Great move… let me add that what is missing with work from home model is the “new” employment contract that comes with the territory. It basically compensates the home based employee on his/her productivity… not just a 40 hour work week. There need to be measures put in place that track/report/incentivize, etc. an employee and make them responsible for their work deliverable.

          This concept is coming and will eliminate managements concerns of “Is John really working while he is at his home office and not doing personal activities?”

        • #2728242

          that’s not the point, but even if it were….

          by the_gnome ·

          In reply to Now you using your strategic skills!

          The whole point of outsourcing is to get rid of the _American_ worker, not to get rid of the _office_ worker. The real difference in cost to the company depends on the country in which the worker sits, not the building.

        • #2728224


          by jfoster ·

          In reply to that’s not the point, but even if it were….

          The POINT of outsourcing is CHEAPER LABOR… the RESULTS are certain level jobs being lost to another market… typically outside the US at this point.

          There will be many IT jobs that CANNOT be outsourced and those are the ones IT folks need to retool and focus on.

        • #2728207

          Please list it.

          by tiendvu ·

          In reply to correction

          Can you list those IT jobs that CANNOT be outsourced, so I can focus on?

        • #2728205

          outsourcing insourcing who cares

          by rodney.beard ·

          In reply to correction

          well people have finally started to stop complaining about the migrant farm workers from mexico cheap labor for jobs nobody really wants. So I am going to quit complaining about companies who thanks to us are under the gun by thier stockholder to eek out every last penny of profit possible or face a stock sell off and doom. Us the people working in IT need to realize it is not the intent of companies to get rid of American jobs but to survive in a global economy. America is still the land of opportunity so why rely on someone else to make your opportunities for you and go out and make you own

        • #2728133

          On the Mark

          by mr_fancy_pants ·

          In reply to correction

          Here, Here, You hit the nail on the head. We have come too a Paradigm shift in the job maket, just as the big automakers did in the 70’s when Japan made a hugh impact shipping cheap, better quality cars to the US.

          The short term fix the “Unions” went after was to pressured Congress to raise import taxes on all imported auto’s. This did not stop the flow of imported auto’s, it caused the big three to retool their thinking and come up with a more Competitive product and service.

          This will happen in the IT field as well.

        • #2728031

          Right on the Money

          by yelt62 ·

          In reply to correction

          I have had to do it many times in my career in IT. Started in PC Maintenance (outsourced, Networking (outsourced), Project Management (outsourced), Reliability / Enterprise System Management currently inhouse but I will likely outsource it in the next 3 years.

        • #2728233

          Poor workmanship is mostly poor Management

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Alternative Missing from the Spreadsheet

          I have been a champion of work from home for more years than I would like to admit. I started a campain with my then employer in 1988 to have systems analysts and support personnel work from home.

          It took almost 7 years but when we finally received approval the results were amazing.

          I (and every other manager willing to try it) sat down with our direct reports and negotiated what constituted 40 hours of work. The amount varied with the individual. I had twice weekly meetings with the work at homes to review work schedules and assist with any obstacles.

          After about six or eight weeks I was finding I needed to suggest to the analysts that they might want to spend a little less time logged on. Yes, I was seeing connect times in the wee hours of the morning and late at night. Productivity went up a little over 27%.

          People will meet or exceed your expectation of them. And they will put as much effort into the work as the management pays attention to the goal.

          Just my experience with work from home.

          Thomas L.Smith Jr.

        • #2669409

          Working From Home

          by scott.917 ·

          In reply to Alternative Missing from the Spreadsheet

          Working from home comes with a whole bunch of its own issues.

          Even though it is something that would save a company a ton of money, it is not the right kind of money. Employees are a direct expense, contractors, land, supplies, etc, are capital expenses, which can be depreciated and written off in a whole different way.

          Until the repulsive term “human capital” applies to direct employees as capital, rather than expense, we’ll continue to see businesses cut direct employees FIRST, and then look to other cost-cutting measures.

        • #2728208

          ..moving where the work is??

          by lrsprague ·

          In reply to Outsourcing reality

          Yelt62 states that “..I wouldn’t be adverse to moving to where the work is if I had to.”, in response to the Outsourcing trend. I hate to burst your bubble, but that may well mean you need to buy a ticket and a VISA to INDIA, real soon. They are taking American jobs away by the millions. Aside from gutting the programming market for web design so that what used to pay $75/hr. now attracts $15/hr., I’m aware of only a select few mission criticial, service oriented, on-site jobs that remain, from my observation point — forgive me: excepting the executives, that is. There’ll always be jobs for executives who make these bright ‘cost-savings / ROI decisions’ which turn out to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. I’ll agree with you that much of the mundane has been offloaded, such as call centers and the like; but imagine being a customer of an American-made product, receiving an answer from an INDIAN engineer in New Delhi, about a problem related to a product made in New Jersey?? We’re kidding ourselves if we don’t believe that this is destroying the fabric of our technical society!

        • #2728045

          The work moving!

          by yelt62 ·

          In reply to ..moving where the work is??

          Well stated, but…
          If you were an owner of a company and could get the same work done for $15/hr instead of $75/hr regardless of where the work is performed would you? I certainly would. It is all about the bottom line.
          Now I do agree about the infamous pie in the sky ROI. When we went through the redesign activity in the mid 90’s our department dropped from 150 to 50, we decentralized our developers. Biggest risk identified out of our Risk Assessment was that smaller departments, including IT, would not have the resources to do what needs to be done. And sure enough that is the case. We now have an external company doing our app development over the internet quite successfully.
          The fact of the matter when it comes to outsourcing is that it is not necessarily one country over another it is prue and simple economics. I think that is the intent of a global economy.
          Just my thoughts,

        • #2730392

          Americans CANNOT emigrate to India

          by laurengr ·

          In reply to Outsourcing reality

          Don’t think for a minute that Americans can just emigrate anywhere they want!! You’ll not be able to move where the jobs are. India, China, Russia, they don’t want us, don’t allow us to move there to take a job away from THEIR citizens. What’s wrong with that picture?

        • #2730369

          americans in India

          by raghu ·

          In reply to Americans CANNOT emigrate to India

          Well ! its not that easy an question and definetely not a easy
          schenario. In India, we have a huge competetions in almost all
          the fields. We have economy based on numbers. Companies
          have altogether different strategies to even get to break even in
          their business. You can take any industry i.e. iron, shipping,
          telecom, IT etc. Indian are used to this market toughness are
          this is the reason they can perform any where.

          Any American, european or even NRI tring to come to India is a
          very very tough.

        • #2728995

          Isn’t that a slap in the face though?………

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to Americans CANNOT emigrate to India

          Oh my god!! are you serious? Do you mean to say that these countries, whose citizens have been infiltrating our borders by the millions for the past couple of decades, do not welcome skilled foreigners who may advance their technological economies?? (hmm?why does this country allow again??) But wait..can’t we find some politically-heavy corporation in said foreign country which would sponsor our citizenship for a work visa so that we can replace some adequately paid, college educated employee at the height of his ‘productive’ years trying to plant his feet in the ground?? c’mon! it’s a common occurrence – NOT OVER THERE IT ISN’T! Those countries are in that predicament for a reason!! They’re governments AND citizens are lazier and/or more corrupt than ours. We’re more U.N. than the U.N. is on this point! I think it’d about time for INS to be introduced to IRS. Had our left hand known what the right hand were up to, this may have been prevented. Then again, it’s not all easily blamed on our tolerant, provisional laws. Most of these foreigners have desperately sought out & found the loopholes they needed. Loopholes developed to protect oppressed people, legislature drafted on the heels of slaughters such as Kosovo or Nazi Germany. Well I haven’t seen anybody in any IT department who came from foreign a land in refuge from a genocide. They all came to strike gold and to send it back home – or at least not spend it here.
          That my friend is the loophole. A great problem today for a great country like ours, which has found itself bending over backwards through its existence to help out fellow human beings and ensure them that they have a haven, a refuge in which they can trust that a big brother will protect them from a force they cannot reckon with. Generally speaking though, I don’t see how our policy makers will terminate immigration without causing a huge stir in the public sectors – and I doubt it will help at this point.

      • #2730523

        Powell Reassures India on Technology Jobs

        by kurtbooth ·

        In reply to how many cnet jobs?

        Here is a link to a NY Times report of Colin Powell in India on the subject –

        I find it interesting that when our building went from 2,000 employees to less than 50 over the past two years, there was no training offered us poor “Customer Interactive Agents”!!

      • #2728670

        Outsourced CNET Jobs

        by jimntz ·

        In reply to how many cnet jobs?

        According to this piece on Newsforge, CNET’s Web site believes outsourcing to India is the way to go when it comes to writing articles at least: outsourcing content production to India

      • #2728507

        Marc Andreesen & outsourcing

        by jmottl ·

        In reply to how many cnet jobs?

        Dear TechRepublic Members,
        I caught Lou Dobbs, of CNN, interviewing Marc Andreesen about outsourcing — Andreesen is all for it and it shocked me nearly out of my seat. I’ll try to post the text transcript here, but if it doesn’t fit or paste well into the forum, feel free to email me at and I’ll send you it.
        Judy Mottl
        Senior Editor

        DOBBS: In a moment, I’ll be talking with a California lawmaker who says outsourcing has devastated her constituents in Silicon Valley. But, first, Marc Andreessen is an Internet pioneer. He co- founded a Silicon Valley firm that helps companies outsource work overseas. He’s the chairman of the company Opsware. He also, of course, co-founded Netscape.

        Marc Andreessen joins us tonight from Mountain View, California.

        Marc, good to have you here.


        DOBBS: There are very few issues right now that are more difficult for corporate America to deal with than the issue of outsourcing. You support it. You support it vigorously. Why?

        ANDREESSEN: Yes.

        I think it’s purely good for the American company and it’s good for American workers. It’s part of the natural process of creating new jobs. I think job destruction and job creation go hand in hand. In the last 10 years, this economy has destroyed 325 million jobs and created 342 million new jobs. And, in general, those news jobs are better jobs than the ones that were destroyed.

        And I think, in the next 10 years, we’re going to destroy another 400 million, create another 430, 450 million new jobs, and those jobs will be better. I think it’s blue skies.

        DOBBS: Mark, I quite appreciate job destruction, job creation and the net effect. And that argument is advanced considerably. But that argument doesn’t really work if the net result is not a higher value job and that has not occurred in this country now for three years, and perhaps more, actually.

        That being the case, why should we accept it as a matter of faith that we can destroy lives — and it is looking as though — some estimates range as high as three million jobs have been outsourced now to cheap overseas labor markets.

        ANDREESSEN: Right.

        DOBBS: Why should we take it as an article of faith that that kind of pain results in better jobs, when we’re not seeing it demonstrated in any of the data anywhere?

        ANDREESSEN: Right. So, first of all, nobody cares more about the pain caused by job destruction than I do.

        I grew up in Wisconsin. And, as you know, in Wisconsin, there have just been a huge number of jobs lost over the last 80, 90 years from agriculture. And when I was growing up, that process was continuing. The flip side of that is, new jobs were created and in general people in Wisconsin have a higher standard of living and higher per capita income now.


        DOBBS: I understand that, Marc.


        ANDREESSEN: That exact same thing…

        DOBBS: But what I’m asking you for, why should we take it as an article of faith when we have not seen this happen for four — nearly four years?

        ANDREESSEN: Right, because, for four years, we’ve been in a recession. If you look at the impact of the recession, it’s almost entirely responsible for what is going on.

        So let me give you a couple other numbers. In the last 15 years, the number of Americans employed by foreign companies has gone up from 2.5 million to 6.5 million. Offset against that is, yes, American companies now employ 10 million people overseas. But do you think we pay overseas people more or less than foreign companies are paying the American workers?


        DOBBS: That’s a different issue, Marc.


        DOBBS: I have got to interrupt you, Marc.


        DOBBS: That is not outsourcing. That is not exporting jobs overseas.

        ANDREESSEN: Sure, it is.

        DOBBS: If I may finish, then I’ll


        ANDREESSEN: Cars are now being manufactured in the United States by Japanese car companies like Toyota. They’re outsourcing to us all over the place. There’s all kinds of jobs. Siemens is manufacturing new jobs to the United States.


        DOBBS: Are they doing that, Marc, to produce products for this market?

        ANDREESSEN: Sure, absolutely, they are doing that.


        DOBBS: That’s right. And that’s the distinction. And that’s the distinction here.

        The service jobs, the high-value jobs that are being exported to various countries around the world are not being exported so — for entry to those markets of those countries, but rather for the return of those services and products to this market. That is the distinction in outsourcing, Marc.


        ANDREESSEN: Actually, that’s not entirely true.


        DOBBS: Well, no, it’s actually — it’s entirely true.

        ANDREESSEN: Well, the data doesn’t actually show that. So, for example, let’s look at it a different way.

        DOBBS: What data? I would like to know.

        ANDREESSEN: It doesn’t make any economic sense.

        So, for example, I guess the implication is, we’re shipping dollars overseas and those dollars are staying overseas and they’re never coming back. We’re creating economic growth in the U.S. We’re creating economic growth overseas. When we put jobs in India, we’re paying Indians in U.S. dollars. Those dollars are being turned around and spent on American goods and services. The new middle class in India that’s emerging as a result of the I.P. offshoring…


        DOBBS: Oh, I assure you..

        ANDREESSEN: They’re buying Levi’s jeans. They’re buying Nike shoes. They’re buying Apple iPods. They’re buying Merrill Lynch financial services. We are creating new markets all over the world as a process in doing this.

        DOBBS: It’s — that is absolutely true. Markets are being created. Middle-class jobs are being created in India, as you suggest.

        ANDREESSEN: Yes.

        DOBBS: There is just one problem with that.

        ANDREESSEN: And those — and those people are consuming American products and services.

        DOBBS: They are assuming about half what we’re buying from them right now.

        ANDEREESSEN: Actually that’s not true.

        DOBBS: Actually it is exactly true. The deficit with India is — for this instance is precisely twice.

        ANDEREESSEN: For manufactured products that’s true. Look at services.

        Do you think we run a services deficit or surplus?

        DOBBS: Marc, you were saying what?

        ANDEREESSEN: We run…

        DOBBS: Were you not talking about buying products?

        ANDEREESSEN: Products and services. We run a deficit on products. The difference in the dollar comes back in investing America. We run a surplus in services. Lou, we run a $75 billion a year services surplus. $75 billion…

        DOBBS: Are you talking about globally, Marc.

        ANDEREESSEN: Yes, globally.

        DOBBS: Oh, absolutely not, Marc. We have $550 billion current account deficit in this country.

        ANDEREESSEN: Right, I’m telling you…

        DOBBS: That is services that is products in — I mean, Marc, let’s — let’s go back to the issue of outsourcing. If you prefer.

        ANDEREESSEN: Well, hold on a second. The president’s economic report that just came out in 2002 we ran a $75 billion surplus in services.

        DOBBS: In 2002?

        ANDEREESSEN: We benefited services trade.

        DOBBS: In 2002?

        ANDEREESSEN: In 2002.

        DOBBS: Do you release…


        DOBBS: Marc, we can sit here and not really edify anyone including ourselves by trading statistics. The fact is it is 2004, the fact is in the most event report on trade we show for the first time negative numbers in the area in which you live, that is technology which is supposed to be bringing us all of these wonderful jobs that so far are not materializing.

        ANDEREESSEN: Look, technology took a big hit in the last four years due to recession. When I was involved in creating the first Internet browser in 1993, I can tell how many Internet jobs there were, there were 200. I can tell you how many there are now, there’s two million now. We created new jobs in the next 10 years. I’ll tell you what, we’re going to create a huge number of new jobs in the next 10 years.

        DOBBS: I expect you to do so. What I don’t expect you to understand is that there is no one listening to us that should take — has any reason to take as you an article of faith that by moving jobs overseas simply to acquire cheap labor that in any way adds to innovation to this country.

        ANDEREESSEN: Absolutely it does. It compounds innovation, allows American companies to invest both overseas and the U.S. It allows American companies to hire more people in the U.S. It allows American companies to sell their products and services into a larger global market. I tell you another thing, it encourages peace and stability worldwide. The best thing that can happen to us from a national security standpoint we determine to develop the middle classes in India and China. And in fact the really best thing we could do is to start offshoring to the Middle East.

        If you want to systematicly go after global security and peace, figure out how to bring everybody into this world of increasing returns from economic, increasing returns from trade…

        DOBBS: Marc, you surely not suggesting that we create a middle class anywhere in the world at the expense of our own?

        ANDEREESSEN: Of course not. It’s not at the expense of our own.

        DOBBS: That’s precisely the effect of what is happening.

        ANDEREESSEN: No it’s not.

        DOBBS: No, sir, it is.

        ANDEREESSEN: Trade has been win-win for 200 years.

        DOBBS: Win-win. Marc, you are too smart for this. You are absolutely too smart for this. When you hear win-win, what do you think of, a software salesman, right?

        ANDEREESSEN: Not at all.

        DOBBS: Come on. If it’s — thank you. I also have a sense of humor like you do, Marc. You know what, I don’t think we should have too much a sense of humor about what we’re doing to hardworking men and women in this country. Please, would you take as an article of faith if you were sitting there driving code that you are going to get to a result or would you want to empiricly be able to demonstrate it?

        ANDEREESSEN: Absolutely.

        DOBBS: Here are the empirical demonstrations of what we’re dealing with right now.

        We have a half trillion dollar trade deficit. I’m sorry, go ahead. ANDEREESSEN: Empirical demonstration is over 200 years of standard of living has risen massively. We created 140 million net jobs. They say we created 342 million jobs in the last 10 years alone.

        DOBBS: You do understand we have to talk in net terms.

        ANDEREESSEN: Per capita income. We’re up 17 million net new jobs in the 10 years, including the impact of the recession.

        DOBBS: The last 10 years.

        ANDEREESSEN: The last 20 years we’re up 38 million net jobs. And those jobs per capita income, in that period of time, since World War II to today, per capita income is up. Everybody is better off.

        DOBBS: By the way, if you are trying to convince me, our viewers, that it’s good to live in America, that really isn’t the issue. The fact is how do we preserve and improve on the quality of life for our middle class, for all Americans.

        ANDEREESSEN: Economic growth is the key.

        Would we agree economic growth is the key?

        DOBBS: We — I would agree absolutely that economic growth is the key.

        ANDEREESSEN: We agree job creation is the key?

        DOBBS: Absolutely.

        ANDEREESSEN: Right, and this is what happens. We create jobs, grow, innovate, exploit new markets, we develop new markets.

        DOBBS: But you haven’t accounted for the experience of the past four years nor the failure of this economy through two and a half years since the recession ended to generate jobs and that is the critical issue, Marc.

        ANDEREESSEN: Let’s separate out. No. 1 in IT we had a big recession, right. We had a big bubble. We had a dotcom bubble.

        DOBBS: Marc, I got to be honest with you. We have taken far more time than we should have. Come back, we’re going to argue some more, do me a favor — watch that, you know, faith based economics, will you?

        hit’s dangerous stuff, macro economics as well as it is in technology. You can reciprocate with counsel to me as well, Marc. You get the last word.

        ANDEREESSEN: I reciprocate to you with exactly the same counsel, for 200 years the standard of living in this country has risen. and it’s going to continue rising for the next hundred, I don’t think there’s any question about that. DOBBS: I admire your faith and we appreciate your time.

        ANDEREESSEN: Thank you.

    • #3381952

      Place the blame a little more carefully?

      by dc_guy ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Isn’t it the information technology revolution that made offshore outsourcing of “knowledge workers” jobs possible in the first place?

      All it takes is a workstation, the internet, and a good cheap long-distance carrier, and every company in America can move its service department to any place where lots of people speak English.

      We in IT gave the world workstations, the internet, and good cheap long-distance service. We even gave people all over the world a good reason to learn English.

      It’s a little late to start complaining now. Just because the offshore outsourcing that OTHER workers have been complaining about for years has finally hit OUR profession.

      • #3381832

        Well said

        by wordworker ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        Wow you really know how to boil it down to the essentials. Now how do we take it to the next level, the one those outsourced help desks will aspire to next?

      • #2729677

        The Blame is to be distributed pretty evenly – granted.

        by orpheum ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        I apologize for not taking more time and elaborating on this topic. You are absolutely right DC_GUY. There is a huge list of technological advancements which is clearly viewable on a simple timeline as you noted. The ‘Big Guns’ were eager to make a buck. Hardware manufacturers were eager to sell more workstations. Carriers were eager to gain bandwidth usage, and software companies were raking it in with shrink-wraps that made it all come together. So in conclusion, CNet is not at all entirely responsible for leaking the secret that offshore outsourcing will save your average corporation sized 100-1000 users a cool million or two over a couple of years. However, I was pointing out that pouring salt over these labor force wounds was a HUGE slap in the face for many of us like myself to witness. Would anyone be so bold as to speak of Vietnam and say ‘we should have let them kill each other and not get involved’ in the presence of a veteran who lost his platoon over there? That was the gist of my reaction, man. You can’t imagine the disappointment I felt upon opening this email yesterday. Felt like a sword had just gone through me, and I hope someone was conscious enough to forward my initial string to the editor in chief at CNet, and also hope to see the higher ups take this as a wake up call. There’s an abundance of content to write about in our wonderful, hyper speed industry ? they should refrain from topics like this in the future. I hope this falls on the proper ears as well – funny how there?s no one mentioned in these emails or even the links to take credit, at least Dvorak is brazen enough to wear his label on his advice in PC Magazine and accept our criticism (not that there?s a whole lot).

        In the meantime it would be nice if by some miracle there would be an evolution which would force jobs to be regenerated on our home turf with/without necessarily taking away these much adored offshore incomes.

        God Bless

        • #2729628

          Take heart: Nanotech is coming.

          by dc_guy ·

          In reply to The Blame is to be distributed pretty evenly – granted.

          It’s predicted that the nanotechnology sector will be larger than the entire planetary GDP is today. And this is expected to happen in about fifteen years. It will keep growing from there. Look for an inflation-adjusted GDP with two or three more zeroes in your lifetime if you’re under 40.

          If IT brought about a more equitable distribution of that GDP among nations (and a certain shock among some of us at learning what the world’s per capita GDP is), nanotech is poised to bring it down to the level of the individual while massively increasing the total available for distribution.

          I’m not enough of a scientist to give you a digest of the articles I’ve read on the subject. But a Google search will flood your screen.

          There are two camps, to be sure. The optimists look to nanotech to complete the Paradigm Shift that IT started, which (Bill Gates notwithstanding) has already gone a long way to correct the aberrations of wealth and power concentration caused by industrialization. The pessimists worry that with science we’ve already created a world that our brains, bodies, and spirits can’t adapt to, and call for a complete moratorium on research in the field.

          (See my posting on the “Obesity” thread for more on that subject, which would admittedly appear to group me with the pessimists.)

          But one thing about IT: it makes it hard to keep any genie in his bottle. Nanotechnology will undoubtedly advance with or without the blessing of governments, churches, the Nimrod Conspiracy, and organizations who purport to protect consumers and the environment.

          By definition, nanotechnology is small-scale. The Apple of nanotech may be created by two physics grad students and a 12-year-old computer whiz in a clandestine lab in a cave with a diesel generator in the outback of Uruguay, Zimbabwe, or Kyrghyzstan.

        • #2729093

          India and nano tech

          by raghu ·

          In reply to Take heart: Nanotech is coming.

          Indian backbone is made upon 4 generations of sacrifices. Its
          now that we are learning to capitalise it. Once a dear friend of
          mine, one of the high ups in an FI, told me that if we could just
          calculate the intellectual capital value of indians in India, we
          would be the richest country on earth.

          We missed bus on semiconductors, then superconductors but
          with IT we have learned to catch the bus and so has Indian govt.
          Definetely we will capitalise on NANO. I already know 3 research
          groups working in this field for past 5 years and are about to

          India was once considered ” sone ki chedia”, a bird made of gold
          and like every one says, “What goes around, comes around”. Well
          ! people its about time.

        • #2729082

          More Blame – and a solution

          by johnny.blizzard@bcbsfl ·

          In reply to India and nano tech

          Ok everybody let’s face facts! There is actually more blame to go around, and some benefits as well. First the additional blame; much of the blame can be placed on you and me, the American Consumer. We shop by NOT by quality NOR by country of manufacture, YET by price. Admit it, when you’re have two products side-by-side, what do you base your buying decisions on??? Of course, price. How do you get cheaper goods, by letting the sweat shops oversees make them. That goes for computers also.

          So if corporations can save a buck by outsourcing a low paying IT job, so it can afford to purchase more computers to get more workers on them, then the same corporation can higher a more skilled IT worker.

          So, here’s the Solution; study more, get more certifications, become more highly skilled than any of our India counterparts!! Set up your own lab at home. I know IT guys who go home after work, and … watch TV. Come on guys (and girls)! Your day is not done! If you want YOUR job to remain in the USA (where you are), then YOU should be working on it at night.

          Employers are NO LONGER WiLLING to pay for On The Job Training.

          So, go learn NANO, get you CCNE, MCSE, MCSD, CCE, ETC. 🙂

          And God Bless the USA!!!

        • #2729050


          by jimgon ·

          In reply to More Blame – and a solution

          You are right. Companies are purchasing thier IT based on price. Not quality or country of origin. That also applies to certification and knowledge. Indians can get certifications too. You have to compete on their level, which is not certification or training, but on price. Personally I can’t live in the Northeastern US making what an Indian IT person makes. So certification and training won’t be enough, I still can’t compete on price. Or I could, but I could work retail and make the same wage and not have to pay for training or carry a beeper.

        • #2729025

          I agree

          by kevin.thomas ·

          In reply to Dollars

          I went back to school full time in 1998, wiped out my savings and aquired a student loan in the process, to make a career change into this field.
          I was told by schools that it was a good field and could make 40K right out of school. Well after graduating 20K was the figure if you were lucky to land a job. It just went downhill from there. I did my part of wiping out my savings to survive while in school ($35,000 No this is not a misprint: 35K). If a company is not willing to give me some training to benefit them were is the loyalty supposed to come from, overseas? You say get all the certs out there to stay on top. I have bought many books to try to stay educated at $80 to $100 a pop and there are hundreds more to buy. You cannot learn everything and expect to be prficient at all of them. There are so many certs out there that if you were to try to do this you would be cert rich with no real experience, and new ones pop up every couple of months.

          I have a family life after work and cannot afford to neglect that. There has to be a balance. That is why there are so many problems with society today because no one takes the quality time to be with their families, TOO busy with work. Maybe you are single and work is your life but as you get older and have a family hopefully that will change for the sake of your family.

        • #2729027

          Get trained – Still outsourced

          by pilotslu ·

          In reply to More Blame – and a solution

          Though I believe that training will improve your chances of landing an IT job, I don’t believe it will increase your chances of keeping your job. When we become more skilled than our Indian counterparts we require greater compensation (well I do anyway). The problem isn’t a lack of training, the problem is that most IT people here in America (me included) can’t and do not want to compete with the lower paid people of India. It appears that the people not getting outsourced are the people in charge of doing the outsourcing and in my experience they usually don’t even have a technical background. So maybe if you want to keep your IT job you need a business degree.

          -Probably Getting Outsourced

        • #2729972

          Competing with India

          by jrcrutcher ·

          In reply to Get trained – Still outsourced

          Not only do American tech workers not want to compet with those from india. We can’t. What is the dollar value of an average mortgage in India, groceries, insurance (of all sorts), taxes. The problem is that even at the lower dollar amount the Indian techie is still part of the middle class. That same amount here would still come pretty close to putting a single man on public assistance much less a person with dependants to clothe, feed and house.

        • #2728121

          More education isn’t the answer

          by capabel ·

          In reply to More Blame – and a solution

          Johnny, you make some good points, but your not supporting your own theory. Yes, by nature people will choose the cheapiest “anything” IT included. Bottom line is the bottom dollar period!!
          So if I went out and got all of my certs the exact same amount as my Indian counterpart do you think I would actually have a chance???
          NO WAY..
          Bottom line is they are willing to work LONGER, HARDER and for about half the price!!
          So no matter what amount of education I get I still won’t be able to work for the same amount of pay because the cost of living here is SOOOOO much more than a third world country!!
          Bottom line is the Bottom dollar and there is no avoiding this unless your willing to take the same pay about a third as you normally would.

        • #2728051

          Education is not the solution; wage adjustment is

          by underground_in_tn ·

          In reply to More education isn’t the answer

          And there’s the long-range forecast of where all American jobs are heading, along with our economy. Currently the global economy is way out of balance, with Americans way up at the top of the pay and lifestyle scale, and nearly everyone else much lower. We are experiencing the beginning of the shift as the scales balance out the global economy. This means that as more of our jobs move over seas, we Americans will have to adjust our compensation (and our lifestyles) downward to become more competative and hold onto our jobs.

          Education is not our long-term salvation, because what we can learn, Indians (and Irishmen, South Americans, Iraqis, etc) can also learn.

          Just grab hold and get ready for the long ride down. Congratulate the rest of the world for successfully catching up with us as they ride the scales upwards (except for those unfortunate to still live under repressive regimes that hold them back, like Samolia, Iran, Syria, North Korea, to name but a few).

        • #2728114

          I buy Quality not Price mostly

          by thepctech ·

          In reply to More Blame – and a solution

          Im not a tight wad, I buy quality before price mostly. Any others?

        • #2728279

          Fierce competition

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to India and nano tech

          Stand by for some fierce competition my friend.

        • #2730005

          Get Real

          by erekose mcne ·

          In reply to India and nano tech

          Why is it that most if not all of your high technology people got their eductation in the U.S.? Even better, whyis it that they got their education paid for by the U.S. while the rest of us B+ A- students had to get student loans to go to Graduate School? Answer: There is a misconception that you are smarter (False) and that because you are not citizens, you cannot get jobs and work to pay for your education(True). I was told that by a Financial Aid official at an Ivy League School. Give me a break!!!!! If it is sooo much better there in India, why do most of you move here?? Is it because of the extreme poverty??? You have a country that can split atoms, and is only to anxious to try it out on their neighbor to the east. Yet your roads are primitive, telecommunications a joke, and you still drink your bath water (Ganges river). So once again tell me how this helps make you smarter or better. U.S. companies are flat out greedy or does anyone remember the tragedy at the battery plant where the poison gas escaped? They are pouring millions of dollars into a backwater third world country rather than spending it here at the expense of our citizens. No matter how many certs I have (8) or degrees from college (Bachelor’s and Master’s in Engineering) it MEANS NOTHING TO CORPORATE GREED!!! I could study from now till doomsday and it won’t matter! I know too much and no one will pay my salary no matter how much I knock it down to compete without starving. It is time for protectionism. Let’s start by making sure that NO Non-US Citizens get financial aid to go to college regardless of their grades. Let the money stay here!!! Next, we should make sure that when foreign students come here, they don’t stay and have to leave when they are finished. None of this perpetual student crap!! If they do want to stay they must go home first and then reapply. Last but not least, Vote out the monkey boy in the White House and the mole of a Vice President. Let them go back to Texas and work for Halliburton and whatever rock they crawled out from under. They have lied to all of us and ruined the economy in a senseless war of culture classes and oil.

        • #2729058

          Americans together

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to The Blame is to be distributed pretty evenly – granted.

          Whether we need to have a secret online force unionized is yet to be seen.
          But there are thousands of us 100% in agreement with you.
          We have been fighting the battle for years now, so perhaps a bit jaded and ready for new levels of success.
          Now this topic is the central issue in the major political event of our time. Thank goodness.
          There has never been more at stake.

          Lou Dobbs cares about America too (if you have missed his series)

        • #2729047


          by jimgon ·

          In reply to Americans together

          As long as corporate America and Wall Street are focused on short term profits and not long term growth outsourcing will continue. The fastest and easiest way to reach short term profits is further cost cutting. In IT that means either machines or people. Right now we are witnessing the people. If companies felt safe in data warehousing offshore I’m sure they would go for that too.

        • #2729044

          How can I help?

          by aaron ·

          In reply to Americans together

          Hello, there… nice idea – clandestine online force…. where do we begin??? I am all for it… sign me up – I’ll testify before Congress if you want. No problem – anyone, donate time to us in this regard. It’ll be worth it.

        • #2728708

          RE : HELP

          by infoaaa19 ·

          In reply to How can I help?

          If you want to help propose some constructive ideas how to deal with this situation. Also please post it on I just set up this site for this reason. States need money, is there any kind of tax solution we can place on the November ballot.?

        • #2727874

          What we need is a new ‘TARIFF’ for outsourcing

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to RE : HELP

          Why does congress care about the dollar amount of an IT technician’s salary??? That should be his company’s problem. Government should be interested in stabilizing OUR economy, not the ROI or IT budgets of the large corporation. In order to accomplish this, our policymakers should consider adapting a measure to implement certain tariffs on the export of labor in the field of technology. What does the US gov’t stand to gain by allowing taxpaying jobs to migrate to countries which don’t contribute to our local economy or federal income tax intake? Somebody please clue me in. We aren’t talking about the micro-electronics assembly lines now which have been off the table now for too many years. We’re talking about well, it’s obviously not necessary to elaborate that on this site.
          There are tariffs in effect around most of the world in opposition to US goods and services, why don’t our policymakers realize this novel, patriotic proposition of fighting for OUR ECONOMY! If corporate America doesn’t care about the catalyst of its success, maybe congress can remind it. And if this is taken to THEM and rejected, like so many economical initiatives which are shot down in opposition to ‘personal agendas’ (alternative energy sources (Cheney)), then we know where the blame truly lies. How can we – working class taxpayers – stand half a chance?
          It should be as simple as that!!! But it never is.
          Fair trade?!!?!? Don’t give me that. Since when did corporate America or government ever play fair with the rest of the world?
          Besides, LABOR is not TRADE as in the finished goods market.
          Don’t dismiss our plight by laying blame on the technician’s lazy-ass personal life, bottom line is we just can’t live on India’s paycheck no matter what. Rent or mortgage, income and sales taxes, food, clothing, transportation, etc?. That’s a lot of rupees my friend!!
          Nobody has been able to dispute this matter yet. I would like to see someone address that before calling the American IT guy ‘lazy and not ambitious’. We get certified. As a matter of fact, certification providers are becoming a commodity by the day due to the fact that we are constantly seeking to advance our professional credentials. Whoever takes that position on the issue, please make sure to add that you yourself may be lazy and therefore assume that is the basis for the IT riddle.

          Please don’t litter this discussion with racist drivel or ideas you haven’t fully thought out as members tend to lose momentum from half-baked replies. We are trying to SOLVE a problem – not start unnecessary new ones.

        • #2728304

          IT Quality Association

          by charleshagen ·

          In reply to Americans together

          We DO NOT need a Union. Unions are the primary reason China manufactures today the way they do.

          We DO need an Underwriters Laboratory type of organization that people can be a member of. It would insure quality among the American IT workforce and hence people would choose it for the Quality in Work it represents.

          Everyone sound off if you like the idea.

          ITQ (IT Quality) Certification and membership would possibly help?

        • #2728267

          Sorry but that does not

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to IT Quality Association

          help the job picture.
          ISO = International
          It is us against them, not where do I sign up to be a part of the big team.
          If it was fair, it would be different.
          Can you survive on $1.50 an hour in our economy?
          I can’t.
          The way we are going now, there is sure to be a collapse of the dollar.

      • #2729090

        Cause and effect…

        by melanie.denyer ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        “We in IT gave the world workstations, the internet, and good cheap long-distance service. We even gave people all over the world a good reason to learn English”

        You know, that just may be an over-simplification. While I won’t downplay the role of IT in developing the world’s economy, suggesting it’s the main reason for people around the world speaking English is a bit rich.

        Even before IT took off, lots of people around the world spoke English, largely due to the previous existence of the British Empire. At the heart of the creation of the British Empire was trade. And that’s the issue today, too.

        I subscribe to the principle of free trade, but I likewise deplore the ‘blind’ outsourcing practiced by so many companies, whether in the US, the UK or wherever. But it strikes me that if the outsourcing is taking place, it’s because domestic firms can’t always fulfil the requirements of the companies who outsource. Sometimes, of course, the companies are just being plain cheap, but other times we should be treating the outsourcing phenomenon as a wake-up call.

        The first industry in the UK to be hit by outsourcing to India was the call centre industry. Cost was the relevant factor here, and even more so in a post 9/11 world. But, while more Indian contracts are announced, many others are coming back to the UK, or reaffirming their intention to stay local.

        The domestic companies winning this war are those who have focused on quality, and allied it with cost control. Oddly, they are paying their workers more than previously, but are retaining their competitive edge with the quality of their offering. And this is bringing back the big brands.

        In the same way, the IT industry needs to reassess how it competes with the international competition. Quality will surely be an issue, but cost control will be another. If you can get those aspects sorted, a little market research should be all it takes to bring companies back into the domestic market again, as they have in the UK.

        In conclusion, I would say that sometimes you have to let the corporations make their mistakes and learn their lessons. Just make sure your industry learns theirs.

        • #2728232


          by peteg ·

          In reply to Cause and effect…


          The problem is, for every 10 companies that Outsource, only 1 out of 10 is rehiring. The rest won’t even consider rehiring at a lower wage; they’d rather keep it overseas.

        • #2728546

          Former Comcast Employee

          by riccijo ·

          In reply to Rehiring

          I was laid off from Comcast back in november 2003 and i have signed up with aout 30+ recruiters since then and had a few projects but the thing that i don’t understand is why are companies posting jobs on the internet and then people like me and you out there apply for the job and either you never here back from anybody and or they send you and e-mail saying that the company hiered someone from with in the company, This country is now so corrupt that it is like iraq and othe countries and i don’t see it turning around anytime soon for the IT industry, I personally have given up on the job search for IT jobs and plan on going back to school to learne something else that i home will get me at least a 10.00 dollar an hour job.

      • #2729069

        Wrong view folks

        by american_it_guy ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        The US government addressed manufacturing offshore outsourcing to a degree everyone bought in. With I/T, US Gov. and many are in denial. Big difference. (Although the Gov. was involved in the manufacturing exodus I agree that their effort was too little)

        Most folks never understood I/T or the dedication/skill required, not to mention the knowledge base of staff. The biggest difference (pointed out by many here) is the logistics. Instead of planning and building a plant, just simply flip a switch on a router and shazaam! – IBM India tech support at your service.
        That is where the un-easiness we all feel comes from. My job can disappear during the night.
        Oh yeah, that brings confidence in our system.

        I don’t think we will loose this war but it is unforgivable what has happened already. The pain imposed unnecessarily on hard working Americans will have me very involved in these matters the rest of this life.
        There is something *very* wrong with how outsourcing has had a free hand to destroy careers and erase history of employments.

        Also, remember guys, flipping burgers is manufacturing now. I suppose working at home depot or starbucks will become I/T.

        • #2729049

          The answer is simple

          by aaron ·

          In reply to Wrong view folks

          The answer is simple – vote politicians out that do not look out for Americans. Offshoring is a mild form of espionage.

        • #2729033

          The faster way

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to The answer is simple

          Voting a Pol out of office is not the answer.

          What we want to really do is to bankrupt a company that purchases services from an IT provider that Outsources.

          I wonder if WalMart purchases services from a company that outsources IT Jobs….

          WalMart, or someone like WalMart would be the perfect target for a anti-outsourcing boycott.

          WalMart is running these ads on how WalMart went into Los Angeles and helped rebuild an inner city neighborhood.

          So, the new slogan for WalMart would be; “Once we have ruined your neighborhoods economy by outsouring the IT Jobs, then we will come in and save you, buy giving all the out of work IT Professionals jobs in our WalMart for close to minimum wage.”

          On the bright side, our $300,000 + houses will only cost us $30,000 to repurchase when we move back into the hood. And there will be a ton of used SUV’s for a couple of thousand for us to purchase so we can re-live the halycon days of IT.

          If this were not so serious, it would be funny.

        • #2727997

          or not so funny

          by nz_kiwi ·

          In reply to The faster way

          You’ve inadvertently hit one of the problems.

          A big issue is the Western World’s race to improve our lot (good or bad, not for me to say). In doing so we’ve inflated ourselves out of the market.

          If we went out and bought all the cheap goods then we would not need as high an income. You can see where I’m leading – reverse inflation.

          The question is what od we want, a high standard of living (mostly on credit) or a job??

        • #2729032

          The faster way

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to The answer is simple

          Voting a Pol out of office is not the answer.

          What we want to really do is to bankrupt a company that purchases services from an IT provider that Outsources.

          I wonder if WalMart purchases services from a company that outsources IT Jobs….

          WalMart, or someone like WalMart would be the perfect target for a anti-outsourcing boycott.

          WalMart is running these ads on how WalMart went into Los Angeles and helped rebuild an inner city neighborhood.

          So, the new slogan for WalMart would be; “Once we have ruined your neighborhoods economy by outsouring the IT Jobs, then we will come in and save you, buy giving all the out of work IT Professionals jobs in our WalMart for close to minimum wage.”

          On the bright side, our $300,000 + houses will only cost us $30,000 to repurchase when we move back into the hood. And there will be a ton of used SUV’s for a couple of thousand for us to purchase so we can re-live the halycon days of IT.

          If this were not so serious, it would be funny.

        • #2728074

          That answer is stupid.

          by randyc-ics ·

          In reply to The answer is simple

          We would have to vote out every single Federal politian in the government today because they all in favor of these free trade agreements. If trade is going to be free, it must be equal. For example, if IBM is allowed to outsource a job to an other country that is worth $30/hr here, then it should be forced to pay $30/hr to whomever it was outsourced to. Not only are they cutting our throats, but they are taking advantage of those to whom it was outsourced. I understand that their cost of living is extremely low, but this would make it unnessecary for them to outsource. Free trade has not helped us trade with foreign countries, but rather has allowed American companies to become foreign companies; thus allowing them to manufacture their products 75% cheaper and then sell them here in the US for 10% higher than they used to. Bottom line is that corporate big wigs could care less about you or this country’s economic future. As long as they are rich they don’t give a damn about you and me. If you want to make a difference, then there needs to be a political-independent, grass-roots campaign of American workers protesting free-trade as we know it. Free trade is destroying America and the sad fact is, those corporate big wigs are almost all in favor of it. This is one way in which the international community knows that it can defeat America. They can’t do it militarily, but they can suceed in destroying our economy through free trade. China is one of the biggest offenders in this respect, right along with Saudi Arabia, Iran and other middle-eastern countries. Thats my two-cents worth.

        • #2730330

          Randy –

          by aaron ·

          In reply to That answer is stupid.

          If I had a glass full of beer or something, I’d toast your post, bud. Nice response, and that is a good idea. That is probably the best idea on this topic I’ve seen!


        • #2730152

          Greenspan weighs in

          by matt.hodgen ·

          In reply to Wrong view folks

          Quoting Wall Street journal from 3/14
          Greenspan “Warned Congress not to take protectionist steps to curb movement of white-collar jobs abroad.” His point is that the economy as a whole will benefit even though a sector of the economy will get blasted. This is exactly what happened to manufacturing in the 80’s and 90’s. It seems that it is our turn. I’ve only been in IT 5 years and have had to remake myself twice and lost one job to outsourcing. Guess I’ll start reading “Mandarin Chinese in 127 easy steps” tonight.

        • #2730460

          clap, clap

          by jimgon ·

          In reply to Wrong view folks

          Well said.

      • #2729048

        Hey DC Guy

        by aaron ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        Hey, DC guy…. I think that ALL jobs can be offshored. I think that management and for that matter government elected and appointed officials can be sent offshore… why not? Most of your work is done remote to the areas you represent anyway, right?

        You are apparently either a spy for India or China, or a damned communist. Leave my country, you are polluting it.

        • #2728139

          Your Country?

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Hey DC Guy

          So when were you appointed emperor? DC_Guy has a good point. He also has the right of free speech, unless you want to take that away from him/us. Is your real name John Ashcroft? I may not agree with some things he posts but he has the right to those posts. On this issue I do agree.

          BTW you are more than welcome to remain in OUR country as long as you accept it the way it is.

          Awaiting the flames!

        • #2730331

          Hey Mr Bill

          by aaron ·

          In reply to Your Country?

          Thats just it with you Domestic Terrorists… someone goes to the aid of their nation, and you attack them, for attacking someone else’s free speech. You are just as dangerous to our well being as Fascism is.

          Who made me and every other American Emperor? The same Constitution that you would burn for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and a cheap calculator.

          Go intercourse yourself and your free speech theory. Nobody told that jerk he couldn’t say what he wants… just do it from another country.


          Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, and Mr. Bill, the Inside Trader.

        • #2730235

          In response…

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Hey Mr Bill

          First off I must apologize to Aaron for the John Ashcroft remark in my other post. This is a discussion board where we are all allowed to express our views, as long as it is done in a respectful way. That being said?

          How dare you call me a ?Domestic Terrorists?!!! What have you done to defend our Nation? Besides spouting right-wing drivel. I have re-read your posts in this thread and have to admit I agree with most of them, but not all. When you said, ?You are apparently either a spy for India or China, or a damned communist. Leave my country, you are polluting it.? to DC_Guy you went too far. Then when I mistakenly tried to defend another American?s right to express his opinion you slam me with allegations of being everything from a terrorist to a fascist to an inside trader. You also suggest I would burn the Constitution for a sandwich and a cheap calculator. I have no idea where you got such ideas from, were you high at the time? As to your remark ?Go intercourse yourself and your free speech theory. Nobody told that jerk he couldn’t say what he wants… just do it from another country.? Are you advocating forced deportation of anyone who does not agree with your point of view? Do you have a ?free speech theory? that is better than the 1st amendment? If you do I would like to here it.

          I hope I did not offend anyone?s fragile ego. And I hope you all forgive my lack of writing style, I am not as eloquent of speech as the rest of you are, or as smart as some of you ?think? you are.

          As always, awaiting the flames.


      • #2729031

        Outsourcing rules

        by amar_prus ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        After 9/11 when major business houses are keen to save more money for the rainy day,outsourcing will rule.

        Technology is an enabler along with knowledge.

      • #2729030

        Outsourcing rules

        by amar_prus ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        After 9/11 when major business houses are keen to save more money for the rainy day,outsourcing will rule.

        Technology is an enabler along with knowledge.

      • #2728308

        too late? no, just drastic change…

        by charleshagen ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        Now here is what REALLY is happening. The GLOBAL ECONOMY is coming to roost here.

        It means that our prices for consulting will drop to compete with overseas. My company’s pricing has dropped by 40%!

        My labor costs have dropped drastically to stay competitive. Of course the last MCSE I hired I found working a register at a gas station. I hired him at $9/hour and he was GRATEFUL to be working in his field again.

        This is the truth of it all…with more competition we have to make clear the significant reasons for choosing domestic consultants…these reasons are geographic (we are local), communication (Americans communicate well with Americans in general) and price.

        The net result is a general lowering of the standard of living. This is unavoidable as governments historically have never been effective at stopping this type of trend (ask someone in manufacturing about that).

        SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER? Compete or get out of the business. Hard, cold truth. I do not like it but what can I do? I keep my $$ here anytime I am able. That is all I can do.

        • #2728254

          good but don’t forget

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to too late? no, just drastic change…

          the fair playing field thing.

          ….The cross sections of our economy must be compatible. That is what the trade policy was supposed to do, keep things fair.

          If we have not seen “close up and personal” human populations grasping for a life and food for their family, then we can’t say much about what we do not understand in the reality of it all.

        • #2728191

          Drastic Change?

          by kevin.thomas ·

          In reply to too late? no, just drastic change…

          You say “compete or get out”. Eventually all work that can be outsourced will be if this continues. You say compete. How can you when the prices of things are not going down with “Reduced” salary you say we are supposed to take. Taxes alone keep skyrocketing just to pay our politicians. You say get out. As I mentioned earlier all jobs will be outsourced that can be. Where does that leave me. Try to pay for school again for a new career with a lesser salary or no salary(grateful to work for $9 an hour?). I did it once already after 20 years in a previous career. I cannot afford to do it again.

          As you stated, this is lower our standard of living and as mvilla says below you will not be able to relate until our population is starving and scrounging for food and shelter. It is cheaper to live in these other countries. I do not see our politicians or corp execs taking cuts in salary or trying to reduce spending to make it cheaper for us to live. Maybe then we could live on reduced salaries.

        • #2728178

          amen brother

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to Drastic Change?

          I am 40 something and at the top of my game.
          They will have to pry the keyboard from my cold dead hands before I capitulate. I am too old and established to start over. The nerve it takes to spew that garbage from an elected office.
          I did not serve my country and patrol against THEM! to get this ‘free for all” giveaway race to the bottom 15 years later.
          Someone is going to eventually pay (a whole party)

          We should not give an inch because ‘they’ say so or some communist country wants to have cable and a microwave in their house too.

          I bought a DVD/VCR piece of junk for $98 dollars at Walmart yesterday. That means the materials can’t cost more than $5.00; I really don’t have a choice. The kids are too needy to tell them no entertainment, we are boycotting disposable electronics. Even the fiberboard box is made in China. That replaced my first I/T job in Manufacturing.

      • #2728664

        You Are So Right

        by infoaaa19 ·

        In reply to Place the blame a little more carefully?

        Blame the tax benefits, blame that there are no laws protecting your private information from being shipped overseas. Bet you would cry when you get your first $1000 telephone bill from East Timor. The Reasons that there are no laws, is that we do not have the lobbyists, in Sacramento and DC. But we CAN create our own referendums, and CAN recall those in the pocket of Mr Ellison and others See GOV EX DAVIS

    • #2729094

      Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

      by niezen ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      To even think that the US IT industry would never change is kidding yourself. In this global economy the search for the cheapest is going on and on.
      It is done while shopping for groceries, or clothing,
      and it is also done for labour.
      The outsourcing has taken place already for years here in Europe in all branches.
      If US IT experts would be on par with others there would be no need to outsource.
      And with on par I mean not only the salary but also expertise and production rate.
      Think global, the world is not US only.

      • #2729092

        just a min

        by raghu ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        If I remember right, some one preached for open trade, free
        markets etc. Now, when some one is beating you in your own
        game with your rules, you want to change the rules.

        NOT FAIR.

        • #2729081

          Just A Min Raghu

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to just a min


          You Said:
          If I remember right, some one preached for open trade, free markets etc. Now, when some one is beating you in your own game with your rules, you want to change the rules.

          And I say to You and everyone else:

          Fair Trade, Free Markets are the wave of the future. Along with population control.

          As to the current Outsourcing of American Jobs. This is an inevitable part of world wide growth.

          However, for thoes of us who are unemployed or under-employed currently, and are faced with minor issues like losing our houses, being unable to send our kids to a good college, no longer have medical insurance and are unable to purchase new cars, etc.; the ramifications are enornmous.

          Plus its not about beating anyone at anything.

          So next time you want to smart off about how Americans are being beat at their own game, remember for every Indian who gets a nice outsourced job, there is some American who just lost their job, maybe their house and car, medical insurance and probably a good dose of self esteem.

          Advancement in Science and Technology always comes with a human price. And watch your back, don’t you think that some of the countries that are even poorer than India are looking at ways to take the business away from you?

          Thoes that fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

        • #2728032

          Not true my friend

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to just a min

          Just a few idiots in positions of power are behind this specific mess rich is not free or fair; and are giving away the farm to make themselves rich. It is beyond me how it got out of control.
          Yes, we Americans love the idea of free & fair trade.
          I have yet to see that in the last decade or two.
          Do you know what a trade deficit is?
          That is only for material goods.
          You better hope we don’t go under because it seems like we have the only work on this planet and are the biggest customer.

      • #2729091

        Could not agree more!

        by asisi ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        The world is evolving into a global village and while Indian and other programmers are taking increasing pieces of offshore application development, other players in US are benefiting too. Take the education and training part for example. Millions and millions of IT related books are exported abroad every year. Amazon has witnessed unprecedented global growth, so is e-bay and many mores. The name of the game now is to build a business for world-wide growth and not only for local consumption. If we don?t play now, we will be out of the game sooner than what many may think.

        • #2729087

          Well,it is the companys who get with everything

          by averroes3000 ·

          In reply to Could not agree more!

          Well, the companies are scraming overseas and that is bad news for the U.S and especially for California (Bush team wake up call). The companies in the U.S have an obligation to U.S stockholders and as taxpayers. Which means that tax them out of it. You guys who support outsourcing would not laugh if it was your job even if you are in Europe.

        • #2728673

          Agree with what?

          by dneyman ·

          In reply to Could not agree more!

          Are you nuts! You need to go back and review economics 101 and our current economic situation. Let’s talk reality and not opinion. When jobs are lost, new jobs must be created to replace those or the economy suffers because less people can afford to spend money. Spending by consumers is what primarily drives the economy. You need to have a talk with Greenspan. This is not new news. Get a grip! Unless more jobs are created within IT, we will be outsourcing everything except on-site support overseas. When this occurs, we compromise our National Security because other countries can now cause chaos with our systems at will. I served in Military Intelligence and can tell you that the enemy will use digital warfare against us. They already have! It has been going on for years and years. Remember, all it takes is the right person to bring down the entire information systems of America causing power plants, sewage plants, grain refineries, etc to shut down and cause an economic disaster. Then where will we be. Become part of the solution, not the problem. GO USA!

      • #2729045

        Niezen – you are one to talk

        by aaron ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        You are one to talk – you are paid by a U.S. company… you BETTER hope that your employment is “US only”… Get on par with something else….

      • #2728272

        On target!

        by jfoster ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        See my post “The sky is falling”

      • #2728235

        Re: Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        by peteg ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        Maybe you don’t realize it, but US expertise. productivity and resourcefulness was the best in the world until the 1990’s when Outsourcing began. US Productivity is still the best in the world, but expertise is now in the hands of the rest of the world.

        What we don’t want to happen is a total collapse of the economy, which will happen if the US doesn’t stem the tide of outsourcing quickly. In our country, we don’t have a Socialist government with free health care and education for all citizens. In this country, if you are unemployed, you have NO health care, NO education money, and will lose your housing if unemployed for very long! Where does that leave us? Out of luck totally! THINK ABOUT IT.

      • #2728222

        Get a grip on Reality.

        by dilbert_envy ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        Outsourcing today (and yesterday) is greed for the sake of quick individual _personal_ profit. It occurs at the management level without thought, or care, as to the long term impact, or harm to the coropration, the overall economy, or the national interest.

        Many of us in the US and UK are already working at jobs that pay “offshore” wages — when we can find them. The deliverables from those jobs other jobs exported to the mythical “well educated” Indian workforce are of often of sub-standard quality, causing the true overall production rates to sink, and final product to fall short of end customer expectations.

        Quality dosen’t cost, it pays — and it’s never going to be found by going to the least expensive method.

      • #2728221

        Get a grip on Reality.

        by dilbert_envy ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        Outsourcing today (and yesterday) is greed for the sake of quick individual _personal_ profit. It occurs at the management level without thought, or care, as to the long term impact, or harm to the coropration, the overall economy, or the national interest.

        Many of us in the US and UK are already working at jobs that pay “offshore” wages — when we can find them. The deliverables from those jobs other jobs exported to the mythical “well educated” Indian workforce are of often of sub-standard quality, causing the true overall production rates to sink, and final product to fall short of end customer expectations.

        Quality dosen’t cost, it pays — and it’s never going to be found by going to the least expensive method.

      • #2730219

        The premises are dysfunctional

        by pegasusgroup ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        All actions must be geared toward preserving our selves, families and way of life. More people should actually go to college and take courses on philosophy, theology, biology, sociology. To look at this outsourcing issue with blinders on is the most superficial of actions, and quite stupid. Capitalism is not always a good thing, and must be aligned with the human condition.

        If you’re over 35, you should be wiser.
        Get some wisdom my man!

        • #2730175


          by ahickman ·

          In reply to The premises are dysfunctional

          Well…them is fighting words. No matter how civilized we think we are, we are still loyal primairly to our family then our tribe then our nation.

          And maybe if you have no family, no mortgage, no other responsibilites you can afford to have a social egaltarian point of view of rapid changes in the work force.

          My main question to you is are you out of work with a family, mortgage, car loan, utilities, etc?

          The are no atheist in fox holes

        • #2730513

          I have the wisdom, my man

          by matt.hodgen ·

          In reply to The premises are dysfunctional

          I have that theology/ethics degree you’re spouting about. The problem is that it doesn’t pay either. The 80’s saw the death of the corporate ethicist. Now we are paying the piper because the “$” is our god and profit has replaced corporate morality. And by the way, Mark, this is about the human condition; specifically the ones who are about to lose a way of life. The problem with your philosophy is the belief that the forest is an entity of itself instead of being made up of individual trees. This discussion is about some of those trees, not the entire forest

      • #2728675

        News for Lucent Boy

        by dneyman ·

        In reply to Do not fool yourself, and don’t be selfish

        Hey Mr. Lucent, why don;t you just stay in Europe. You’re not wanted here anymore in America. I served in the Armed Forces for years that secured your ability to work for the US and am now an IT unemployed American. You have no right to insult American IT workers. If you are a citizen of the U.S. you may want to get it changed becuase the U.S. doesn’t want you anymore, at least not U.S. IT professionals. And I have news for you, U.S. IT Professionals are highly trained and certified. So go take your self-centered opinion elsewhere. GO AMERICA!

    • #2729089

      Insourcing or Outsourcing

      by mattyb_aus ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I have always believed a well resourced and well supported insourcing team will run rings around an outsourcer. I have worked for Unisys & HP in the outsourcing field.

      I have seen the lack of resouces, the “up-sell” but NEVER an outsourcer that understand the customer’s business. In reality they only do it for profit.

      Insourcing is not about saving money, it’s about being able to control the environment and respond quickly to changing business needs.

      The project I am involved in now is exactly that, returning IT to the company because the oiutsourcer could not match the pace of change and provide high quality services to meet the business needs. The project is well finded, well communicated, well resourced and will succeed.

      Spending the money on local resources instead of giving it to somebody else is a responsible way to support the community and the country.

      • #2729084

        Great line of reasioning

        by haruss ·

        In reply to Insourcing or Outsourcing

        The main problem is that we (the tech population) put our boss’s in the position of replacing us with people with better “soft skills”. We find our self complaining about the person on the other floor that can not get the computer turned on with out help. In stead of ?teaching? them how we ridicule. Our own fault!

        How do we turn this around? Repeal NAFTA? Good Idea. Make our self more responsive? Maybe. Learn to be a better server, (as in ? would you like fries with that?) Yes that works too.

        As a whole we have spent untold millions of dollars in training our self on our own time and during company hours to be the best hamburger flippers in the world. That is what it boils down to. Hi tech hamburger flippers.

        Yes after 19 months trying to convince someone who has no clue what I do I?m flippin burgers.

      • #2729075

        Limited understanding

        by inxale ·

        In reply to Insourcing or Outsourcing

        Though , the reasons to outsource are very clear, to save money. The long term effects a company suffers because of the broken promises of deliverance , the lack of understanding of IT by the company looking to outsource and the lack of knowledge of the business model of the company proposing outsourcing actually means that over a wider time zone the cost to the business is actually more ( say 5-10 years ). I concur with MattyB. A finely tuned IT internal team will always deliver a cheaper and more efficient support for a company. Also you get a more loyal unit who is prepared to put that little more in for the business. Trouble is we have directors whose knowledge of IT is limited making a decision which will affect their core business at the end of the day. Though fingers do need to be pointed at some within IT though. When you have senior IT staff waste money for ‘personalised’ projects ‘ then a company re-acts. I know we have to do business cases , but its easy to present your business case to non-IT senior management. Remember the outsouce company has to prepare something similar to show how it can save a company money. All your bosses look at is the bottom line. I admit I am being generic but I haven’t yet seen it any other way.
        If your job is to go offshore. Well can you go 🙂 , if not don’t loose your skill sets. It will be back. Its happening already within certain sectors. Its just an evolution of IT.

      • #2728204

        New Paradigm

        by altekmg ·

        In reply to Insourcing or Outsourcing

        You make several good points in your post.

        How many IT managers know how to make a business case for their staff costs. Not many. This failure leads to outsourcing.

        When middle and lower managers learn to make a business case for their posistions then CFO and CEO will better understand the roll of IT in their Companies and (at least have a chance to) make the decision not to outsource.

        If these managers fail to learn the new paradigm then their staffs and their own positions will be exported to someone who can make the business case.


    • #2729085

      A typographer vote?

      by gulo ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Reminds me of the arguments from typographers and compositors at newpapers and publishers some decades ago: Against computers – killing jobs!
      Or some centuries ago: Against bookprinting – killing jobs!
      Since when does protectionistic behavior improve the own power?

      • #2728262

        It isn’t Progress … it’s Greed !

        by dilbert_envy ·

        In reply to A typographer vote?

        You missed the point — by a long way. If those in India had built a _better_ mousetrap, and US/UK companies changed accordingly then your point would be valid. Nothing got better, no products or processes improved. In fact quality and delivery got much worse.

        What has happened is that greedy managers and corporate moral bankrupty have combined to create a situation where for a few pennies of personal gain, national social responsiblities have been ignored and national interests have been subverted.

        That’s Treason, and it’s high time we started treating it as such.

        • #2728200

          Greedy maybe but if a person posts here while at work?

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to It isn’t Progress … it’s Greed !

          The managers and execs may be greedy, but if people spend their “work” time posting to boards like this one then who is abusing the system?

          Yes there are greedy people running some of the companies. There will always be greed and corruption.

          Pointing fingers does not get the job accomplished. IT professionals need to be a productive as possible. We all (well ok I mean me) are guilty of wasting some portion of the work day in persuits like here.

          Another post said it very well. A well run dedicated work force will run rings around outsourcing every time.


        • #2728173

          Out of Work

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Greedy maybe but if a person posts here while at work?

          Well for me I am out of work. Have been looking for a job for 6 months now. Working part time at 40% of my old rate…So, I have time to read this board.

          Be glad you have a job…..

        • #2730278

          The Job

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Out of Work

          Actually I was waiting for someone else out of work to post. Thank you for your input. I was out of work (In my profession) for over 2 years. Try to get a job in the IT industry if you are over 50. It is very difficult, even if you have been working or studying in the industry since the mid 60’s.

          The only reason I have a job is I started my own business. I succeed only because I stay under the radar of the large companies and deal with small businesses that need support but cannot afford the retainers large support companies require.


        • #2728999

          You are the reason…

          by jerrylee ·

          In reply to It isn’t Progress … it’s Greed !

          After reading dozens of posts on this discussion, some of them very well written and heart felt, I came across this one to use as a representative sample (but it is not the only one). No substantive points made to rebut the argument that he/she was responding to, questionable sentence structure, and abhorrent spelling.

          As others have noted outsourcing is not new and protectionism is not a workable means to combat it. Continued education and advancement of knowledge is?there is the solution. Gone are the days when you go to school graduate and NEVER have to go back again. We in America have grown fat and lazy because for so many years no one could rival in the technology arena, but time after time someone else eats our lunch. First it was auto manufacturing by Japan, then consumer electronics also by Japan (and other Asian countries), now we see IT jobs moving offshore in the same manner.

          Why is this happening? In manufacturing it was because they could produce higher quality goods at a lower price. For IT we have a different culprit, the law of comparative advantage. There is a comparative advantage to be had by performing these services overseas for the US market. This comparative advantage allows companies to provide their products and services to the US market at a lower cost, while still improving profits for shareholders. This benefits all of us because we do get better quality products at lower prices and it helps to improve the quality of life for those people employed in the country where the jobs are outsourced to.

          We as Americans have long held a very myopic view of the world, we truly believe that the world revolves around us and everything we do?wake up, it doesn?t and hasn?t for a long time. This attitude is the cause of most if not all of the animosity towards the US in the world today and has been for decades.

          Screams and rants will not make outsourcing go away, we live in a global economy now it?s time for the whiners to wake up and smell the coffee. Seek out additional education and advanced skills, turn off the idiot box (TV) at home and read a book. If you cannot find work in the specific niche that you prefer, expand your horizons and try something new you might just like it. Lastly, as a few others have said before me ?Quit your bitching and do something?

      • #2728167

        Since it became international

        by american_it_guy ·

        In reply to A typographer vote?

        >>Since when does protectionistic behavior improve the own power?

        Yeah, the ole’ buggy whip story has merit, but the scenario is different and is just a lame attempt and minimizing the current conditions.

    • #2729080

      Will cost the White House!

      by bluegill ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      This sort of thing was part of the first George Bush’s White House run for re-election in 1992 when it came to lost manufacturing jobs to Canada, Mexica and to Asia. Ross Perot addressed the discontent and split the electorate enough to put an unknown in the White House (Bill Clinton). It was ddressed again the next time around and we got another fractured elctorate. In 2000 it was close again but folks were pumped to believe that service jobs would save us and that every thing would be okay. Now the service jobs are leaving. What will be the effect of an angry electorate this time? It will be a call for change, now matter how much all other factors are changed with it. Folks are justifiably angry and have a huge sense of betrayal by those that should know better. The party in power just doesn’t get it again! It’s sad in many respects.

      • #2729078

        Rush and Hannaty Need to get a Clue

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to Will cost the White House!

        Your right Bluegill. This issue will cost the Republicans the White House this year. They think the issue is about Irag. It’s not. When American Voters go to the polls and vote, they are going to ask the classic question: “Am I better off today than 4 years ago?” For about 20 million people who are unemployed or under employed, the resounding answer is going to be no. And the talk show pundits and the White House better wake up to the fact that we are not better off.

        Just to be clear….we are not better off economically, however, in the area of world peace, we are.

        God Bless America

        • #2727918

          World peace?!?!!

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to Rush and Hannaty Need to get a Clue

          I hate to disagree with a fellow patriot, but I for one do not believe for a second that we’re better off in the area of world peace. Since president ‘dubbuya’ took office, we’ve not only learned that our white house is nothing but a phony pretense towards the rest of the world and the rest of the world now ‘has the floor’ to vent back, we’ve also learned that our white house IS mainly the reason we’re attracting all this hatred from other nations. they hate us in different regions simply because we brought back the son of the man who screwed up the world after a wonderful prdecessor left him an empire of monumental, recent global accomplishments.
          Please don’t misread me as communist or unpatriotic. I am entitled to comment on my personal opinion of the poor job my government has done, due to the fact that i pay taxes and contribute to their inflated salaries. I have been to europe and asia this year and have heard many discussions regarding the global view of the American political blunders of the current presidency and how it has affected the global community and world peace irreversibly, financially and emotionally.

      • #2729051

        Only Gov’t can Throttle Corporate Greed

        by michance ·

        In reply to Will cost the White House!

        Fundamentally unscrupulous corporations like IBM and HP–and their shareholders–couldn’t care less about the jobs of American workers. All they care about are profits and keeping their own jobs immune to foreign placement. Their collective greed will keep them on this path until a greater power stops them, or at least slows them down. Unless the Federal Goverment steps in to smooth the transition to foreign outsourcing, the very real pain and suffering inflicted on American professionals by corporate management will remain unconscionable.

        • #2729042

          You are right

          by aaron ·

          In reply to Only Gov’t can Throttle Corporate Greed

          The government is no longer looking out for our “pursuit of happiness”. It’s time to replace them. All it takes is one good candidate, and several million votes, and it will all stop. I will run for President for the sole purpose of stopping all exporting of US jobs.

      • #2728197

        Governments willnever fix this problem

        by altekmg ·

        In reply to Will cost the White House!

        Governments will never fix this problem. We people will. We need to stop whining and start learning how to, not only do a better job, make the business case for our jobs.

        Even in the IT sector most people expect to go to work put in their 8 to 12 hour and go home. It is up to the managers to protect our positions.

        Well the managers are mostly us a year or two ago. They have mostly the same talents and knowledge we do. That is not what a manager needs. They need special training and support from us their direct reports.

        No, we cannot provide the training but if we aspire to management roles then we can get the required business training on our own.

        If we want to solve this problem do not rely on your government to do it. All governments can do is tax us and make intrusive laws that have no chance of fixing the problem.

        Wake up IT professionals every where. We are the only ones that can fix this problem.


        • #2728186

          Wrong answer my friend.

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to Governments willnever fix this problem

          Government action/inaction created the problem, not business. Business is simply taking advantage of the situation. Most are riding the coat tails of the fortune 10.
          Here is your business case:
          Example #1: I (and 100 I/T Peers) want to work for 7.75 hourly to match that of your outsourced offer. Forget motivation to accel.
          While we are at it, lets live in a shack with no TV or microwave, and you can evacuate California, and all big cities. Playstations will become a toy for the rich.
          Example#2: 2 graduates from the local university are hired today. 1 is an American with a spouse and child. 1 is an F-1 Student to become another fulltimne H-1B person and live in an apartment with three others. The parent needs salary $X. The H-1B does not, and will take what he can get before taking his skillset back home.
          Before long, the employer was looking for a roomfull of apartment dwellers, a dream come true for the payroll.

        • #2730275

          I respectfully disagree

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Wrong answer my friend.

          The reason Governments cannot fix the problem is that Government has no understanding of Business. They think they do but being insulated in the various bureaucracies they are not able to implement a good fix.

          Just look at the steel, auto, aircraft industries. Governments (not just the US) have tried to save those industries and have failed miserably. If government A tries to “balance” the playing field then countries B through ? try to retaliate. All we consumers get is higher prices and les choices.

          I am not saying Business is any more able to correct the problem. I am saying Governments cannot fix it. Governments are only in place to propogate their own interests.


        • #2730240

          Hard to disagree with that

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to I respectfully disagree

          good logic.
          I hope it works out.
          I consider myself powerless and efforts like that of Lou Dobbs tonight (CNN) most powerful. And can not vote for business leaders but instead government officials.
          Who do we go to with the charge to establish these changes and standards? In the past it was unions.
          I like the idea (for example) of a mandate for business to notify local government and effected employees with a reasonable amount of lead time.
          Reasonable = not a proporietary disclosure and giving enough time for the local government to assist, employees to look after their interests in employment.
          Since that is not being done “inuitively” as a moral business process would do, then I am left thinking that government is the only body that can mandate that.

          I guess my view is government executing these solutions as layed out by business. If solutions are pro America and pro business, they are automatically okay with me.
          For the good of the nation, not just me or citibank.
          I have thought that this was what happened all along; i.e., lobbying & the debate process.
          And is not working for too many of us. Too many consideratins for non citizens and non-US interests are in the mix now.
          I do not agree that it is the employee’s fault in most cases. If he is doing his job and his boss fails to get work, employees must be let go. Their is limit to what any 1 group can accomplish in broadening their employability and still be performing on task at peak. That is life. A lot of times the small companies are blind sided. However, that does not relieve the decision maker of the reponsibility. Many times these days the real intent seems to be founded in misleading employees to their prospects of a future, however implicit it may be.
          This describes (to me) the megashift of “outsource or die”
          Which is not necessarily better, few have thought it through. American workers in general can not ever agree to outsourcing their livelyhood offshore so this is a really tough set of choices.
          Government must be involved, cooperative and part of the solution.

    • #2729077

      A challenge ripe with opporunity

      by erniev ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      The advantage of offshore outsourcing is reduced expense,
      however the cost of this savings can be fraught with caveats in
      the form of sacrificing quality, effective communications, dealing
      with time differences and cultural incongruities. Some services
      are naturals for outsourcing, call centers is a good example,
      however other services, where value lies in a company’s ability to
      retain knowledge, will be difficult to outsource to strange

      Americans are industrious, when faced with challenges they have
      invariably risen above the fray and created new markets, new
      technologies, new jobs. They must suck it up and reinvent
      themselves and keep with the tradition of leadership and
      innovation. In this challenge lies opportunity. Americans and
      other industrious nations must figure out how to capitalize on
      this emerging resource and connectivity. I don’t see any other
      solution, other than compete or fade away.

      Perhaps this is the impetus for a more dynamic and mobile
      workforce, virtual organizations, open source knowledge, that
      allows people to compete with lower overhead through
      fleetness, trust relationships and collaborative tools. This
      appears to me to be the great opportunity, the dawn of a new
      area in our work force evolution, the net-commuter will be the
      next big thing.

    • #2729076


      by bhaan ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Where were the automobile, the light bulb, television, computers and space travel invented and perfected?

      HINT: Not in INDIA and Not in CHINA.

      Let’s help the trashbags at IBM and all the other Outsourcing idiots with their transition out of the USA. I think ORACLE and SQL Server are much
      better products than the trash that IBM promotes.
      We especially need to our government to use these Great American products and Great American Engineers.

      The morons in charge of IBM will get what’s coming
      to them. Go ahead and pay half the wages for 1/100th of the EXPERIENCE.

      • #2729068

        Lost Jobs

        by homaee ·

        In reply to Technology

        When a majority of people lose their jobs who will buy the houses, cars, pay the utility bills, buy the new computers, pay the taxes. Already people have lost their new homes and are driving 2nd hand cars.

        Sending jobs abroad who will control the personal information that is handed to companies that aren’t subject to our laws.

      • #2729065

        How to Stop Outsourcing

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to Technology

        Since it is obvious to everyone that IT Outsourcing is about increasing profits for corporations.

        One way to maybe stop Outsourcing is to set up a WEB Site, list the companies Outsourcing, and recomend that you do not buy products from them.

        If there are 15 to 20 Million people who are unemployed or under-employed out there, that is a large block of consumers.

        Such a boycott might make a much better point than all of us whining about Outsourcing. Bankruptcy and Lower Stock Values send a very vivid message to Corporate America.

        • #2728192
        • #2728166

          List of Companies Exporting Jobs

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to web site is already available.

          Here is a list…..any one see any company that we should do a trial boycott on?


          Aalfs Manufacturing
          Adobe Systems
          Advanced Energy Industries
          Affiliated Computer Services
          AFS Technologies
          A.G. Edwards
          Agere Systems
          Agilent Technologies
          Alamo Rent A Car
          Allen Systems Group
          Alliance Semiconductor
          Alpha Thought Global

          American Express
          American Household
          American Management Systems
          American Standard
          Amphenol Corporation
          Analog Devices
          ANDA Networks
          Andrew Corporation
          A.O. Smith
          Applied Materials
          Art Leather Manufacturing
          A.T. Cross Company
          AT&T Wireless
          A.T. Kearney
          Automatic Data Processing
          Avery Dennison

          Bank of America
          Bank of New York
          Bank One
          Bassett Furniture
          Bear Stearns
          Becton Dickinson
          Bentley Systems
          Berdon LLP
          Best Buy
          Black & Decker
          Bose Corporation
          BMC Software
          Braden Manufacturing
          Bristol-Myers Squibb
          Bumble Bee
          Burlington House Home Fashions

          Cadence Design Systems
          Candle Corporation
          Capital One
          Cerner Corporation
          Charles Schwab
          Circuit City
          Cisco Systems
          Cognizant Technology Solutions
          Collins & Aikman
          Columbia House
          Comcast Holdings
          Computer Associates
          Computer Sciences Corporation
          Continental Airlines
          Cooper Crouse-Hinds
          Cooper Tire & Rubber
          Cooper Tools
          Countrywide Financial
          COVAD Communications
          Crown Holdings
          Cypress Semiconductor

          Dana Corporation
          Daws Manufacturing
          Delco Remy
          Dell Computer
          Delta Air Lines
          Delta Apparel
          Direct TV
          Document Sciences Corporation
          Donaldson Company
          Dow Chemical
          Dun & Bradstreet

          Eastman Kodak
          Eaton Corporation
          Electronic Data Systems
          Electronics for Imaging
          Eli Lilly
          Elmer’s Products
          Emerson Electric
          En Pointe Technologies
          Ernst & Young
          Ethan Allen
          Evolving Systems

          Fair Isaac
          FCI USA
          Fedders Corporation
          Federal Mogul
          Federated Department Stores
          Fender Musical Instruments
          Fidelity Investments
          Financial Techologies International
          First American Title Insurance
          First Data
          First Index
          FMC Corporation
          Ford Motor
          Foster Wheeler
          Franklin Mint
          Franklin Templeton
          Frito Lay
          Fruit of the Loom

          GE Capital
          General Electric
          General Motors
          Gerber Childrenswear
          Goldman Sachs
          Goodyear Tire & Rubber
          Greenpoint Mortgage
          Guardian Life Insurance
          Guilford Mills

          Hamilton Beach/Procter-Silex
          The Hartford Financial Services Group
          Hasbro Manufacturing Services
          Helen of Troy
          Hewitt Associates
          The Holmes Group
          Home Depot
          Hubbell Inc.
          Hunter Sadler
          HyperTech Solutions

          iGate Corporation
          Illinois Tool Works
          IMI Cornelius
          IndyMac Bancorp
          Innodata Isogen
          Innova Solutions
          InterMetro Industries
          International Paper
          ITT Educational Services
          ITT Industries

          Jabil Circuit
          Jacobs Engineering
          JDS Uniphase
          Jockey International
          John Deere
          Johnson Controls
          Johnson & Johnson
          JPMorgan Chase
          J.R. Simplot
          Juniper Networks

          KANA Software
          Kaiser Permanente
          KEMET Electronics
          Kraft Foods
          Kulicke and Soffa Industries

          Lands’ End
          Lawson Software
          Lear Corporation
          Lehman Brothers
          Levi Strauss
          Lexmark International
          Lillian Vernon
          Lionbridge Technologies
          Lockheed Martin

          The Manitowoc Company
          Marathon Oil
          Marshall Fields
          McDATA Corporation
          McKinsey & Company
          Mellon Bank
          Merrill Corporation
          Merrill Lynch
          Midcom Inc.
          Morgan Stanley
          Motor Coach Industries International

          NACCO Industries
          National City Corporation
          National Life
          National Semiconductor
          NCR Corporation
          Network Associates
          Newell Rubbermaid
          New York Life Insurance
          Northrop Grumman
          Northwest Airlines
          Nu-kote International

          Office Depot
          Ohio Art
          ON Semiconductor
          OshKosh B’Gosh
          Otis Elevator
          Outsource Partners International
          Owens Corning
          Oxford Automotive
          Oxford Industries

          Paramount Apparel
          Parsons E&C
          Pearson Digital Learning
          Pericom Semiconductor
          Perot Systems
          Pitney Bowes
          Planar Systems
          Portal Software
          Power One
          Pratt & Whitney
          Primus Telecom
          Procter & Gamble
          Providian Financial
          Prudential Insurance

          Qwest Communications

          Rainbow Technologies
          Radio Shack
          Rawlings Sporting Goods
          Raytheon Aircraft
          RCG Information Technology
          Regence Group
          Rockwell Automations
          Rohm & Haas
          RR Donnelley & Sons
          Russell Corporation

          Sallie Mae
          Sara Lee
          SBC Communications
          Schumacher Electric
          SEI Investments
          Seton Company
          Siebel Systems
          Silicon Graphics
          Skyworks Solutions
          SMC Networks
          Sola Optical USA
          Sovereign Bancorp
          Sprint PCS
          Square D
          Stanley Furniture
          Stanley Works
          Starkist Seafood
          State Farm Insurance
          State Street
          StrategicPoint Investment Advisors
          Sun Microsystems
          Sunrise Medical
          SunTrust Banks
          Supra Telecom
          The Sutherland Group
          Sykes Enterprises
          Symbol Technologies

          Telex Communications
          Tenneco Automotive
          Texas Instruments
          Thomas & Betts
          Thrivent Financial for Lutherans
          Time Warner
          The Timken Company
          The Toro Company
          Tower Automotive
          Toys “R” Us
          Trans Union
          Trinity Industries
          Triquint Semiconductor
          TriVision Partners
          Tropical Sportswear
          TRW Automotive
          Tumbleweed Communications
          Tyco Electronics
          Tyco International

          Union Pacific Railroad
          United Airlines
          UnitedHealth Group Inc.
          United Online
          United Technologies

          Valence Technology
          VA Software
          VF Corporation
          VITAL Sourcing

          Wachovia Bank
          Washington Group International
          Washington Mutual
          Werner Co.
          West Corporation
          White Rodgers
          Williamson-Dickie Manufacturing Company
          Wolverine World Wide


          York International


        • #2728153

          might have worked

          by kevin.thomas ·

          In reply to How to Stop Outsourcing

          This might have worked if it were only a few companies. I went to the site mvilla mentioned. There are so many companies that are doing this that you would almost have to stop buying everything. Even stop putting your money in banks. I am also sure this list will only grow.

        • #2728150

          It only takes 1

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to might have worked

          You only need to make an example out of one of them for the others to get the point.

          Maybe its time to fire a shot heard around the boardrooms of America…..

        • #2727871

          sorry buddy – read about the greed

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to It only takes 1

          the only shouts reaching corporate US is ‘we must cut I/T costs even more!’
          You can’t force a company to use domestic labor for higher wages in the free world, dude. As long as there’s a demand for cheaper labor, and foreign policies that allow it, there will always be an India, China, Mexico, etc… to fulfill such needs.
          Let’s attempt to unravel the plausible elements of our battle to co-exist.

      • #2730385

        Guess you hadn’t heard!

        by rossno ·

        In reply to Technology

        In his infinate wisdom, Larry Ellison laid off eight thousand (8,000) American workers and replaced them with … guess what! Indians!!

    • #2729070

      More on Outsourcing

      by rjlambird ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I generally agree with the comments from Orpheum. The long term damage to U.S. workers is just now being realized. The last recession demonstrated that the largest component of the Gross National Product is being contributed by U.S. consumers. Unemployed and underemployed consumers cannot and will not contribute to the next recovery. The private market research analyses we provide do not predict a happy future.

      • #2729060

        This Affects all Sectors

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to More on Outsourcing

        Actually the only product we produce in this country that people want is food. Maybe all of us IT People out to go to Ag School and become farmers. Out with the Industrial Revolution. Out with the Technology Revolution and In with the Agrarian Revolution.

        At least you can make booze out of corn, wheat and potatoes.

        I guess it’s time to open up a new buiness:

        Art’s Farm and PC Repair.

        Eggs, Honey, White Lightening, Fresh Produce and PC Repairs.

        At least they have not figured out how to export America’s Grain Belt oversea’s.

      • #2729059

        This Affects all Sectors

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to More on Outsourcing

        Actually the only product we produce in this country that people want is food. Maybe all of us IT People out to go to Ag School and become farmers. Out with the Industrial Revolution. Out with the Technology Revolution and In with the Agrarian Revolution.

        At least you can make booze out of corn, wheat and potatoes.

        I guess it’s time to open up a new buiness:

        Art’s Farm and PC Repair.

        Eggs, Honey, White Lightening, Fresh Produce and PC Repairs.

        At least they have not figured out how to export America’s Grain Belt oversea’s.

      • #2729037


        by shalako ·

        In reply to More on Outsourcing

        In this like eveything else what goes around comes around.

        In a large part it is all driven by price. India, China, and other asian countries have become the Wal-marts in the labor world.

        These cheaper products drive small companies out of busines just as Wal-marts have caused thousands of small Mom and Pop operations to cease to exist.

        In the long run we the consumer are to blame. We continue to support companies that take our jobs out of the country and we continue to elect people who support tax laws that are benificial to these companies who do so.

        In a large part we have to blame our own greed and complacincies as we have become quite lazy in a lot of areas and seem to think we have a supreme right to have all the best with the smallest amount of effort.

        Not only is these jobs being out sourced but many are being taken in our own country by immigrants. (both legal and non-legal).

        I beleive that what will bring these back in the long run is IT security.

        Good Luck and Live Happy
        Panama Red

    • #2729066

      American Citizen?

      by gought ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Certainly if one looks at outsourcing from a strictly corporate viewpoint as a financial alternative it is to be embraced. A java prgrammer in India for $10,000.00 is cheaper than a java programmer inthe U. S. for $50,000.00. All of the financial institutions including Wharton business school would say that is the thing to do.

      Are thses corporations NOT U. S. A. companies? Loyalty, support of ones country, opportunity, are all issues. The myth about tchnical competence has been spread by the MEDIA which likes to create rather than report news. We, the american worker are just as knowledgable, far more inventive, reliable, and yes more expensive. The cost is mostly due to living in a society which has a great standard of living, a really good middle class, and no free education. Most of these countries, India, China, etc have free colledge and training programs. The very nature of the Capilistic system which promotes the succes of thes corporations drives the process which creates the American Engineer and Programer. Why is it that most of the intlectual propety is found IN the U. S. A.

      • #2729040

        Hey, Gought….

        by aaron ·

        In reply to American Citizen?

        You are dead on!! Also, do these p*ckerh*ead media folks understand where ALL of this technology originated from???

      • #2729036

        Won’t be outsourced again

        by outsourcedagain ·

        In reply to American Citizen?

        I had been in Engineering for 18 years when I lost my job to Free Trade in the early 90’s. While being out of work for those 3 years I went back to school and got a costly IT education.
        After 7 years in IT I lost my job to outsourcing. I was lucky enough to find another IT job for the past 3 years but just got outsourced again.
        I have decided to learn a trade like auto mechanics. Nobody is going to send their damn car to India for service.

        • #2729028

          Right On Brother OutsourcedAgain

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Won’t be outsourced again

          Right on Brother. I am considering selling the house and buying a farm and at least being able to grow my own food.

        • #2728312

          You are right

          by kevin.thomas ·

          In reply to Won’t be outsourced again

          I hear from shops that it is hard to find good mechanics and when they do they have to give a good salary. Mechanics salaries are on the rise.

        • #2729944

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by jrcrutcher ·

          In reply to You are right

          Yes, but how long can even a mechanic earn a good salary when there are few left who can afford his services. Just how many burgers and the likes can we sell back and forth to each other.

      • #2728295

        Re: American Citizen

        by peteg ·

        In reply to American Citizen?

        Don’t get your hopes up that our technology edge isn’t gone too! Between outsourcing, legal and illegal aliens and technology transfers, now India, China/Taiwan, Japan and Korea now own most of the technology developments from this country. In the 1970’s and 80’s we allowed residents of these countries to go to schools in this country and to work in businesses here, due to Liberals in government that made those people a majority in schools. Then most of these individuals took their knowledge back to their home countries, and proceeded to open consulting firms of their own and take away the work from us in the US.

        What we need to do as workers is to convince corporate America that our skills are MUCH better than theirs, and be willing to accept lower salaries for now.

        Of course, when you are long-term unemployed, more than one year, it is extremely difficult to convince a future employer that your skills are better!

        • #2727870

          Convince? Never!

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to Re: American Citizen

          you can’t pull a convince here.
          only government, which sets the policies for incorporated business in the homeland, can possibly influece a corp exec to do ANYTHING.
          i would say it rests in congress’ hands to make ANY change in the outsourcing and H1B hijacking of I/T jobs.
          Please continue to spread the word.

        • #2729938

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by jrcrutcher ·

          In reply to Convince? Never!

          There is a good organization called FAIR that addresses these issues specifically. I couldn’t agree more about the H-1B and L1 visas. If a company can’t find, or train, a citizen to do these functions in the amount of time that the visas exist for then they don’t care to even try. Once a visa holder leaves the company that brought them here there usefulness has ceased and they should be compelled to return from whence they came. There should be absolutely no “in country” sponsoring of these visas. That indicates that the worker is here acting as a free agent an is in violation of both the letter and intent of the visa program. As for the L1 visas and company’s outsourcing. It is my opinion that if substancially more of their work force resides outside of the us then they are not a us company and should be paying the required tarrifs. After all why should they be recieving tax breaks and all of the other “Blessings of liberty” when their payroll and the attending taxable incomes aren’t doing anything to support the society and economy that allows their existance to start with.

    • #2729057


      by em dubyah ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I’m sitting here thinking of how much I *USED* to be against workers unions. However, looking at history I realize that unions started for a very good AND legitamate reason.

      Reasons like this going on. I’ve had this sinking feeling since 1996, that management has wanted to reduce the IT worker to the level of a hamburger flipper. I hate it when I’m right.

      There MUST be a stop to this nonsense. I have 6 certifications with a degree, and it commands absolutely ZERO in the job market. I’ve been out of work since 12/19/2001.

      The games afoot in the IT job market are absolutely PATHETIC.

      Case in point.

      I used to live in Cary, North Carolina. I UPROOTED my self for a contract position with the No. 5 bank in America, in Charlotte, 200 miles away.

      Spent 500 bux in moving expenses and luckily found a roommae situation. Well, all is well and good, then ONE and a HALF weeks into the job, I’m fired because:

      1. the “chemistry” insn’t right.
      2. I patted someone on a shoulder.

      Outsourcing and managerial assininity are KILLING the IT industry. I’m sick of it. We’re all sick of it.

      We NEED….*NEEED* to unite, band together and become a political voice, a POLITICAL FORCE to guard our jobs, out livelyhood. The politicians are selling us out and management is making us grab our ankles, it has to come to a screaching halt, we need to assemble to protect ourselves, our jobs, and our futures.

      • #2729052

        I’m with you, Moe!!

        by aaron ·

        In reply to IT WORKERS UNITE!

        What can we do? Lets get organized… we need some hardcore American-Only companies to lend us support. Any takers?

        We need to fight back, and our first confrontation will be from lawmakers.


      • #2728296


        by charleshagen ·

        In reply to IT WORKERS UNITE!

        Let’s not get into an outsourcing witch hunt. I own an outsource IT company.

        I hire here.

        I create jobs here in the US.

        I lower company costs here in the US.

        I see a witch hunt here at Tech Republic.

        Outsourcing to a domestic company is a good thing.


        • #2728268

          Internal Outsourcing

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to DOMESTIC OUTSOURCING

          No one is complaining about internal Outsourcing. It is the only way I make any money these days as a contractor on projects that were outsourced.

          Keep up the good work Charlie

      • #2728246

        Mate don’t hate, nor hesitate: procreate!

        by rmuldavin ·

        In reply to IT WORKERS UNITE!

        Outsourcing IT jobs to lower wage people in other countries, losing a job here in USA, pain, pain, pain.

        I’m to the far left-(out), in my 70th year of age, from Berkeley in the Sixties (1951-1969), so you might quess my views.

        Uniting workers is no overnight venture.

        Corporate mogols have the upper hand on force, unfortunately mostly male money managers if progress towards a fair and decent world is a goal.

        It might be argued that “outsourcing” makes sense towards such a goal, but not by “democratic” means since the “masses” are not up to it.

        Well, we’re not: we’re “designed” to live among smaller groupings of peoples, thus our large popuations exceeded our initial evolutionary capability.

        My take is this: mate, don’t hate, nor hesitate to procreate, work any vocation of conscience, organize and love locally, reach globally, the world is complex, and IT is a tool, as was cuneform, alphanumberic, paper, printed writing, … as well as computer assisted communication.

        Get to the root causes, get “radical”, communicate with the “outsourced” workers of the world, unite, you have nothing to loose but your Cheneyes, and others lost in the hypnotics of money management, parading as “believers” while acting as decievers.

        Pace yourself, long live the loving workers of the world!

        Best, rm

    • #2729054

      Orpheum, Right On, Boss!!!

      by aaron ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      It all comes down to greed. They utilize their financial woes from 9/11 as an excuse… but it isn’t strong enough foundation to send our jobs to India or anywhere else. This is one of those problems, where, if politician’s constituents do not hear the cries of their IT workforce fellow citizens, then the result will be unrecoverable. We have already sent our technologies to the rest of the world through one means or another.

      Any company sending work or advantageous technology ideas offshore is, in my opinion, participating in espionage, and should be tried as such. The companies that offshore work are saving money to sell their product BACK to US citizens. What is wrong with THIS picture??? If US Citizens would stand up and for 5 straight years BUY AMERICAN, we would be propelled into a new era. Until then, get ready for catastrophic entry into national nothingness. All the money they make in savings, will be utilized quickly in the years of coming corporate starvation. Ultimately, we will no be able to compete with other countries. And the people to blame are those in charge right now, in the Corporate and Federal offices.

      • #2728218

        Bought And Paid For DC Whores

        by johnnysacks ·

        In reply to Orpheum, Right On, Boss!!!

        The same story with blue collar workers in the 80’s and 90’s. Now it’s white collar. Begs the question how many out of work in IT voted Republican. What was the last Bush generation that had a friggin’ clue about what it’s like to live paycheck to paycheck? Has anyone in house or senate ever had the pleasure of needing Cobra?

        1. Corporate influence buys politicians in DC
        2. Politicians allow freedom to outsource and provide incentives like capital gains and income tax reductions and subsidies for the people who directly benefit from American job loss.
        4. Reduced taxes = less money available to aid the Americans now out of work. Little things like health care, unemployment. Dump it in the states’ lap where taxes MUST increase for the remaining employed to offset the Federal fund reductions.

        At what point does the glorified ponzi scheme that our economy is beginning to resemble collapse?

        • #2729926


          by infoaaa19 ·

          In reply to Bought And Paid For DC Whores

          That is why you blow them out, get commitment before you elect a new one, Write propositions for the ballots and no surprises.

    • #2729053

      What portion of IT is outsourced?

      by colebme ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I agree that we as a nation should work hard to keep business within our nation but outside of helpdesk work what else can they outsource in another country? When the network goes down the people in India can’t put there hands on the system. They can’t show up at the front door of a business to repair a desktop! I believe Dell computers outsource some of their helpdesk services to a company in India but when they send a technician out to repair the computer I?m sure they didn’t fly someone in from India just to repair the computer.

      So if more and more big companies are outsourcing, go work for the companies that get the outsourced contracts. There?s more to IT then helpdesk work.

      • #2728276

        Lots can be oursourced….

        by fdohle ·

        In reply to What portion of IT is outsourced?

        Many large service providers (IBM, CGI) have already opened divisions in India and abroad to actually DEVELOP SOFTWARE.

        This is high value add stuff – not help desk – which many of us were well paid for. In the current scenario, this work is never coming back.

        Have you ever check out how many software developers are out of work!

    • #2729039

      lets face reality

      by tnwilliams53 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Its very easy to complain about corporate outsourcing, but lets face reality. Its economics. As long as our tax structure makes it sound and other companies have a lower cost of living it will continue. This has been happening to manufacturing for a long time. How is it really different from automation coming to factory. The IT industry is just getting what its done to others

    • #2729038


      by winnielorson ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Having been made redundant (by a US corporation taking the work back to the US!!)at the tender age of 46 a couple of years ago, and with little prospect of finding another job anywhere near as well paid as the one I was in, I feel that I can speak with some experience.

      The whole point of a company is to make money for the shareholders and therefore should keep it’s costs ot a minimum. By outsourcing IT, and other disciplines, to India, it follows the golden rule of economics that it is trying to maximise profits thereby making the company, and the general economy, stronger. This is the basis of how the US economy has been built up over the last few hundred years and has made it what it is today, the worlds richest and most consumer orientated. It is called “free trade” and what makes the global economy richer and generates profits for the consumers of other countries to buy more US goods, whatever they may be.

      So ends the economics lesson !!

      • #2727868

        don’t quit your teaching job yet!!

        by orpheum ·

        In reply to Experience

        thanx for the valuable input on the global economy. However, when I have no job, I could care less if the rest of the globe is employed.
        Secondly, outsourcing overseas DOES NOT MAKE THE GENERAL ECONOMY STRONGER! It only makes the corporation which is doing the outsourcing appear to have maximized their profits and to the contrary only making the economy of the country receiving these outsourced revenues stronger. Leaving Americans unemployed and the IRS losing out tax revenues. India’s citizens living in India, aquiring I/T work from the US have never and will never stimulate the US economy.

        Although I am an I/T tech with a nice amount of cert’s and experience to my resume, I majored in accounting and minored in economics at a prestigous university.

        You insult the intelligence of my colleagues and myself by putting forth such ignorance with such conviction.

        • #2695026


          by shalako ·

          In reply to don’t quit your teaching job yet!!

          I find I have to agree with Orpheum on this point.
          How does losing one’s job and possibly making his entire family destitute make our job market or the economy stronger?

          The US has lost millions of jobs in the IT , manufacturing, and textile industries for years. The so called service jobs that are supposedly taking the place of these are low paying and many are taking in turn by illegal aliens with the blessing of big corporations and our own government who now wants to legalize those who have broken our nations laws in the first place,

          Most of this can be laid to corporate greed. How many 5 or 10 million dollar a year execs are laid off or outsourced?

          Every day I see in the paper where white and blue collar workers are laid off to save the company so many millons of dollars a year but I never see where the corporate execs. are downsized are given a reduction in wages.

          All of this is encouraged by our tax laws which are written in turn by the corporations and then are signed in to law by our elected officials that have been in turn purchased by the corporations and is passed off by the American people as business as usual.

    • #2729035

      And what about security

      by mikalos ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Let’s not forget that as we increase the knowledge of and access to our data and systems management infrastructure, we make ourselves more vulnerable to terrorism. It seems ironic to me that as we are tightening the physical access to certain groups and individuals to our country, we are at the same time making the ‘doors’ to the technological framework, upon which ALL Americans rely upon for all our needs, potentially more accessible to those same groups and individuals. Can we truly rely upon foreign enterprises to protect our interests and minimize our security risks? And getting back to the original question here – why should we when we have qualified, unemployed Americans?

      • #2728260

        security is an after thought

        by the_gnome ·

        In reply to And what about security

        Security is laughable in all levels of government IT. The only reason security budgets are growing in the private sector is people are suing over data exposure. The same companies that have no problem turning their IP over to persons they never met and that are outside US legal jurisdiction will have no problem handing over the keys to the kingdom.

    • #2729024

      globalization’s malcontents

      by kangdan ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Anyone can emphathize with Mr. Orpheum but facts are facts. Its a world economy now so everyone is competing at the global scale. Your not vieing for a job with your neighbor or your countrymen, your vieing for it with those in China, India and any other cheap labor nation. And of course, that competition is hardly fair when countries such as China have a population of over a billion people and the labor regulators seems to enjoy a “hands-off” approach letting wages fall to the extreme. Supposedly the advocates say that this will only lead to a better wealthier America. With the export of “menial” jobs overseas there will be greater jobs here at home. But these greater jobs require greater education and soon the prerequiste will be at least at the Master degree level. How is that going to happen with the state of our educational system? Workers that are disenfranchised should get assistance from the government. Career transitions at the post-prime part of anyone’s life is anything but a cakewalk. Those that say “just get another job” are insensitive and ignorant to the plight of the working man.

      Even though these are the growing pains of a new economy there must be the role of government in all this to smooth out the transitions between one economy to the next.

    • #2729022

      Outsourcing at this level is TREASON by another name.

      by dilbert_envy ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      As long as corporations are allowed to export American jobs for profit our standard of living — in fact even our very lives themselves — are in serious danger.

      No job = no benefits = no medical care = death. It’s a slow process, but if you have been out of work for over a year (like many in IT) you have a good picture.

      If I were somehow able to get a job in India (fat chance) I would still have to pay US taxes on my “offshore” income. American corporations that operate “offshore” seem to have multiple tax breaks. Since we have the best government that money can buy, this is no surprise.

      Acting against the national public interest for personal profit is close enough to the formal definition of TREASON to start treating it as such. It is certainly time those of us in the industry that are adversely impacted (almost all of us that are US citizens) started calling it TREASON in public. Maybe then the news media would start listening and the nest of political rats in DC would start to leave the sinking ship of corporate moral decay.

      • #2728228

        Strong Feelings, Different Perspective, Same Result

        by youraveragemanager ·

        In reply to Outsourcing at this level is TREASON by another name.

        Keep spreading your message, I have no problem with how any message is presented, form is less important than substance.

        Those of us involved in technology have an affinity toward attributing logic assuming that well conceived strategy and objectives motivate our organizational leadership. Technology people are creative, and this allows us to paint a logic-based model in our own minds as to why anything happens. This is great when applied to systems development, but less useful when applying it to people, the decision-makers.

        I was challenged by a friend to try this rationalization out for a while. Stop thinking that the decision-makers are using higher thought processes or a rational plan that contributes to success of the organization and the people within it. Advised that if I simply attribute their actions to plain old stupidity the results are the same.


        In IT, we can all remember back to where a few of our end-user customers practically accused us of deliberately creating a bug, or system failure just to make their life miserable. We would push back the question, “so you think we planned to enjoy the opportunity to have this type of relationship with you?”

        Ladies and Gentlemen the problem is larger than just BPO.

    • #2729021

      promoting more Outsourcing. NOT!!

      by wolfen357 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I don’t understand. How does this help the US economy? Were paying wages outside of the country that will not be put back into our economy. Oh! I forgot the propaganda. That the money saved by companies will lower the price of consumer goods. Name me a couple of companies that made a profit and past it back to the consumers by lowering their prices. If they did that then a CEO might only make 19 Million a year instead of his normal 25 Million. The same “Top Brass” that makes the big bucks are the ones laying off their own people sighting “Economic Forecast Concerns”. If every high level exec. and board member took one million less in salary per year. Think if how many jobs that would save. Better yet, take some of that salary and reinvest it in your own company. I think they call it helping to “stimulate the economy”.

      • #2730190

        here here

        by mrbill- ·

        In reply to promoting more Outsourcing. NOT!!

        Good words, too bad the CEOs are too busy buying their next lexius and BMW to read this thread. Maybe anyone in a large IT company could send the CEO, annon if possible, this thread and let them see what they have caused.

    • #2729020


      by fwheels ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      RIGHT ON!
      In the long run outsourcing will not have an effect, but as Economist John Maynard Keynes said, in the long run we all be dead.
      It is time to discourage outsourcing the way we encourage and discourage economic behavior, the tax code. Disallow deductions for outsourcing expenses, provide credits for keeping jobs here in the USA. Encourage anyone who has had to deal with a customer rep outside the US, who often speaks poor and broken incomprehensible English, for a US product to complain to the BBB, their Congressman, Senator, any appropriate federal agency, etc.

    • #2729017

      Outsourcing – good for America?

      by bwinters ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Outsourcing does lower the cost of doing business and may benefit shareholders, company profits, and consumers – at least in the short term. However, consumers are a mixed bag as many are now unemployed or have taken jobs for significantly lower pay, forcing them to buy cheaper items made/outsourced from/to foreign lands. Vicious circle from a consumer’s perspective. While we live in a global economy, let’s not forget that America?s economy is still very frail.

      If we take a company that decides to outsource some of its jobs and lay off a thousand people, then continue to give that company tax breaks while removing tax-paying jobs from the U.S. workforce, who is the beneficiary? The government will need to pay out more for welfare, unemployment, and other programs to help the unemployed. Let’s not forget about Social Security and Medicare – there is a huge baby-boom population moving into retirement at the same time jobs are being outsourced. We also can’t forget about the mounting defecit – mostly from assistance abroad. So the large baby-boom generation (taxpayers) is moving into retirement while the smaller workforce (taxpayers) that follows is losing jobs. Who is going to pay for all of this? Tax increases surely can?t be far behind.

      With the Bush tax cuts, new jobs are indeed being created but many of the better jobs are not being realized in the U.S. How does this benefit America’s economy? There are companies in India now constructing large office buildings for call-centers, IT, etc that will employ over 10,000 people based on jobs outsourced from the U.S. alone. Not only did America lose these jobs, but imagine how it effected peripheral jobs like construction, engineering, telecommunications, and various suppliers. Imagine what it could have meant to the U.S. economy.

      Outsourcing has been around for a long time – just look at the auto and electronic industries. To some extent, I suppose it’s a natural evolution of business, but at a time when the U.S. is recovering from a recession, it makes no sense to me. The tax cuts were supposed to spur business into action and help the economy, not give the jobs away. Somewhere along the line, that purpose was lost. In my opinion, the only ones who truly benefit from this strategy are the foreign companies, U.S. companies doing business this way, and possibly their shareholders. I believe that if a U.S. company is going to outsource jobs, they are taking away tax-paying opportinities from the U.S. and should therefore either not enjoy any related tax breaks or be taxed more. Nothing comes without a price.

      • #2728274


        by ahickman ·

        In reply to Outsourcing – good for America?

        Again…we need to pick a target retail company that uses the services of IT Provider that Outsources and do a boycott. Lower Stock Prices and falling revenue send a very strong message to business about the effects of Outsourcing.

    • #2729016

      Jobs are important

      by ebanksto ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I have been without a job for 6 months. Partly because I sat in place too long (mea culpa). I agree that outsourcing is indeed having an impact on industry. I think we need to consider it dangerous for other reasons, not because of the I think outsourcing is loss of jobs, but because it is placing the US in a precarious position from a security perspective.

      First, indulge me and let me have a general discussion of perceived economics. Outsourcing is actually not new. It has been occurring in out life for years. How many times have you walked into a store and picked up something that had a “made in China” sticker? Check out the clothes you wear, they are probably made in Mexico, or the Philippines, or Egypt, or somewhere outside the US. In the 70?s there was an outrage about textile manufacturing being sent to ?sweat shops? or international spots of manufacturing to improve corporate profits. Have you ever played in the stock market? If you have you, your goal is to make some cash along the way. You hope that the company will reduce costs and increase profit so that the shares of stock you hold will grow in value and give you high dividends. The top executives are trying to comply.

      I was angry at first with the outsourcing. However, is that just like clothes manufacturing went across the water, so will other jobs. It is inevitable. Many companies today are being forced into finding cost efficient alternatives so that they can stay competitive in their respective marketplaces. Driving this is the large retail corporations that are demanding lower process from the manufacturers and suppliers so they can then pass them on to you. Since most profit is percentage based, the lower prices mean lower dollars on the same item. In some cases, the products cannot be made fast enough in the US. Buy a set of CD?s lately for burning copies of whatever? I bet you are happy when the prices drop. Most people are. This means WE have to decide what OUR future holds. We need to decide how we can affect the thoughts of those making the decisions that if we keep making Americans poorer but reducing their income levels and reduce the available spending dollars.

      Now, back to the security issues, I feel that are rising. Currently, the FBI is attempting to get the FCC to make changes to the infrastructure that will allow them to tap ANY internet connection. The FBI is pressuring the FCC to go around the normal investigative process. Do they have something to hide? This could introduce methods that could be exploited for corporate espionage, open a lot of personal information as it gets carried across the expanse of the internet, etc. oh sure there is that encryption thing, but the technology must exist to get around this if the FBI is desiring the internet taps. I could get into religious implications, but that is another subject. Think about it.

      On the last note, I want to leave you with something else to ponder. How much has gasoline gone up in the last 4 years? And now with the demands of China on petroleum imports, we could see the cost go to $3/gallon. Hmmm. Sound more like a great reason for telecommuting and, of course, using the internet to do business. Hmmmm.

    • #2729014

      Things have changed! The tax laws need to change also!

      by jwschull9 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Orpheum has a right to be angry. Mark my words… Come election time, the current administration (and congress) will pay dearly for the lack of foresight into the cause of this problem. Come to think of it, their hindsight is pretty bad also.

      I predict a backlash, and corresponding income tax laws enacted that level the playing field.

      First thing that needs to be done is to take the corporate tax incentive out of exporting jobs and importing labor.

      Good corporate citizens have a responsability to create jobs. Congress and (current and) past administrations have given corporations tax advantages because they wanted to enhance their jobs creation ability. It worked in the past. It’s called “trickle-down economics”. Trickle-down economics no longer works because it relies on a good faith “implied” contract to produce jobs. Because of the lack of corporate integrity, we can no longer expect corporations to respect any “implied” contracts… Recent history proves this fact.

      Tax laws need to be revised to address these BAD CORPORATE CITIZENS!

      • #2728305

        Taxation is the key.

        by buschman_007 ·

        In reply to Things have changed! The tax laws need to change also!

        There’s no way to stop outsourcing of jobs, but we can certainly make it a less desirable option. Just like taxation on imported vehicles, the government needs to enact laws that more heavily monitors and taxes companies that want to go the outsourcing route. What does this accomplish? Well the only reason to outsource is purely finiancial, there’s no other advantage. Like has been said this is a global econ and everyone wants a piece of American $$$. Let’s make em pay for in the form of taxation! So if companies do choose to still outsource money is funneled back into the country(unless, god forbid, Bush is still in office) which can support programs for training and education to make our workers stronger, smarter, and more desirable.

        I’ve spoken to a couple people that have tried to outsource IT, and more than a few penny pinchers have lost their job over the debocale outsourced IT turns into. I’m the IT Manager for a company which outsources it’s programming to Inida, and I’ll tell you I don’t like it one bit. When I have friends that are programmers and out of work and you got these guys working for next to nothing and the company is saving a bundle… Where’s the incentive to change?

        Hopes and dreams aren’t going to change this outsourcing trend. But taxes could.


        • #2728290

          taxes and Government…

          by charleshagen ·

          In reply to Taxation is the key.

          Government is interesting. Our politicians talk the talk, but fail to walk the walk. Here in WI we had a capital seed bill that would have allowed me to hire about 300 employees and expand my business competitively.

          It never passed through the State Assembly because one politician said they could not afford it.

          My only question is can they afford NOT to pass it?

          My motivation is to create jobs profitably.

          They look else where. Let’s outsource our government…Perhaps Indies can do a better job than who we elected.


        • #2728257

          Taxes and Govt

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to taxes and Government…

          So they tax big corporations that outsource more money. The big corporation passes on the cost to consumers.

          Boycott a retailer is the only way to stop this.

          Hit them where they live….in the bottom line and public relations

        • #2728212

          Re: Taxes

          by peteg ·

          In reply to Taxes and Govt

          You can’t be thinking in the right groove! The Fed should tax each Corporation $10,000 per outsource employee in India or wherever per year they do that, and THAT corporation will probably listen and do what’s right!

          What do you think?

        • #2728209

          Of Course

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Re: Taxes

          If passed, the new tax law will go into effect on January 1, 2006 and a grandfather clause will state that all jobs sent off shore prior to 1/1/06 will not be taxed.

          Nice………… 1/1/06 there may be little or no IT in the USA

        • #2730544

          $10k is chicken feed

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Re: Taxes

          Let?s see, if I?m paying an Indian worker 3/hr plus lets say 10/hr overhead for utilities and such, that comes to 26K/yr add 10K for taxes that is 36K. If I have to pay a US employee 40/hr plus 40/hr benefits, then add overhead for utilities and such it comes close to 90k+/yr. Who are they going to hire?

          Nice start though.

        • #2728214

          Really save a buck

          by spencercarterjr ·

          In reply to Taxation is the key.

          Yes, we the American worker can stop outsourcing.

          Government representatives only have to refrain from spending federal dollars with companies that out source. IBM, Cisco and others are some of the government’s biggest vendors. Why not reserve those lucrative federally funded contracts for the vendors who hire American workers in America.

          Let’s really save some money and outsource top management. Consider, one corporate executive’s compensation may equate to the compensation paid to ten technical workers.

          The concept of taxing the companies makes sense until we remember that once the government gets the money it doesn’t always go where it should go i.e. retraining and new business startup.

          How about giving our displaced workers tickets to the countries where their jobs are and see if the outsourcing companies will hire the experienced American worker over their inexperienced worker.


        • #2729935

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by jrcrutcher ·

          In reply to Really save a buck

          To add insult to injury, I have read recently about several state and local governments, yes our state and local governments that are off shoring some of their services (ie welfare and medicare) as well as giving contracts to companies that hire strictly on an L1 visa basis.

    • #2728311

      Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      by richard.mandanici ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing


    • #2728310

      Totally Agree that it is costing America Jobs

      by clintonroane341 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      When I first saw the article on Tech Republic I too was disgusted that TechRepublic would publish this information. Why can’t America see the big picture. Our economy is already a mess and our job market is being ruled by Asian, Indians and other countries. When America becomes a third world country then we will realize the mistakes we’ve made. What will you tell your children/grandchildren???

    • #2728300

      I agree but …

      by dscapuano ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      As one who has seen two of my jobs outsourced to India, my gut feeling is to agree. However, the fact that you published such a story only shows that you are oblivious to the plight of the very people that subscribe to your service.

      I also feel, however, that this is not a fight to be taken up at this level. This must be taken up at the political level. Two successive administrations of our government (that I know of) have contributed to this problem, one democrat and one republican. India, and other Asian nations have the most restrictive trade barriers in the world. We can’t sell our goods to them no matter what we do. But we have purchased consulting contracts from them with great abandon. I would not mind sending jobs to India if they would be willing to purchase consulting services from us.

      They won’t, and why should they. All of the major tech companies have subsidiaries in India. They do not need to go out of their own country to purchase IBM or HP services and they do not need to hire American workers no matter what.

      It is the politicians of both parties that have sold out the American worker. However, the press (tech republic) should not play a hand in it. Please put on you editorial thinking caps before publish.

      Dave Capuano
      On Unemployment in New Jersey after 27 years in the business.

      • #2728253

        New American Tea Party

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to I agree but …

        Ok….find a retailer and boycott them. Put them out of business and say….If you outsource your IT out of the country, you better move cause no one is going to buy your products anymore.

        Go sell your goods in India, China and Mexico…if they will let you

    • #2728299

      I agree but….

      by ejmuller1 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      In general I do agree with you. I think that companies are being incredibly short sighting by shipping so many jobs overseas. The American public soon won’t be able to afford the goods and services here because all the jobs will be over there.

      However, I do take exception to your last paragraph. Breadwinners are not exclusively male. In fact, in my family I have always been the one who supported the family. Please be aware of sexist comments like that. Thanks.

    • #2728293

      The sky is falling! (Spreadsheets and Acorns)

      by jfoster ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Globalization is here… to stay. Complaining about the U.S. IT worlds lack of foresight is ridiculously passe and makes “Orpheum” look like chicken little!

      This trend is not just an IT concern. Every service based component in the US food chain is and will continute to be affected by this “evolutionary” trend. Just as you cannot stop your chess opponents hand from moving his/her piece into check or check mate position… the train has left the station!!!

      Now, what are we going to do (other than whine about it) to shore up, re-tool, strategize and make good on what we do best?

      That is what this topic should be discussing… not “history”!!!

    • #2728291

      Bad for Everybody

      by sageadvice ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Do not let anybody try and magic you, the job losses and long term impact on our economy is significant. What is worse from a customer standpoint is terrible service you get if you need to have help with a legitimate problem. In a significant number of instances you get sent to India or some other place for customer service. At some point the customer representative runs out of scripts if the problem is really difficult and one of two things happens. First and most frequently they hang up on you and you have to spend 30 min to an hour trying to get through again. Second, when at at dead end they tell you to reboot (microsoft) and call back. Click. In the case of AOL they tell you reinstall AOL or go to the next bug filled release. Service down profits up. Greed wins again.

    • #2728288

      Today’s Pain, Tomorrow’s Gain …

      by injun_cowboy ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      OK, this may sound old, but I feel your pain. Yet, having been there (am a telecom veteran), I’ve realized that muzzling the free press (like the good folks at TR) ain’t the answer. The execs aint’t depending on TR’s reports to make their decisions – there are numerous other sources.

    • #2728285

      When will we finally wake up !

      by fdohle ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I’ve Been in IT for over 20 years and have never seen such an erosion of jobs in almost any industry! In simple economic terms, the connectivity of the internet has now allowed these emerging ecomomies to “Dump” labour in our markets.
      – Try dumping a ship load of steel or automobiles in North America! – Customs agents will be on this like a dirty shirt – laying tarrifs left right and centre – why then are these economies allowed to dump labour?
      – The big issue I see is that the IT industry has never had any “political representation” (aka unions) Unions have never really established themselves since we have always been well paid. I’ve never been one to “cotton up” to unions – but at this point – without any political representation – how will the net “outflow” of employment stop.
      – Remember, at this point, with out political representation – these jobs will NEVER RETURN!
      – Finally – these “reduced” salaries which have now been moved “off shore” is money which will never be really spent here. China – which has pegged it’s currency to about 10% the value of the US Dollar has insured that they will almost never purchase any “manufactured” products from us or Europe(remember – as an ecomomy thrives, it’s currency should increase in value -making some of our finished goods competitive!). As they have now “commoditized” what was previously “high value add” service, we will now be relegated to supplying nothing but Raw matierial and commodities to these players.
      – Yes, it may be a bit of an exageration – but we will again be relegated to being nothing but hewers of wood and drawers of water
      – Write your local political rep and let him know how you feel! At this point, only political action will level the playing field and re-patriate this significant piece of our economy

      • #2728265


        by ahickman ·

        In reply to When will we finally wake up !

        Bring one retailer to his knees over external outsourcing will get more results than writing the politicians.

    • #2728283

      I couldn’t agree more

      by jim.azeltine ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I was totally pissed when I saw that Tech Republic was HELPING to outsource our jobs. I and my coworkers are facing layoffs, and we have been asked if we would accept a pay cut or reduced hours in order to save the jobs of coworkers. Recently, my company has opened a development center in India, and while I understand the financial reasons for this, it doesn’t help how I feel. They are forced to do it because the others are doing it. The morale where I work is dismal.
      It is my opinion that this will eventually result in the next (and much worse) recession. All will appear to be ok, as profits rise due to lower overhead. Once enough people lose their jobs due to outsourcing and moving maufacturing jobs overseas, the housing market will start to go down as more people lose their homes. Profits will evetually fall as sales decline and growth becomes negative.
      I know that if I lose my job, my 26 year career will be over. Two of my friends lost their jobs, neither found another. One lost the house, the car, everything.
      The only thing we can do now is to convince the American public to boycott the big companies that are responsible for most of the outsourcing, they are making it impossible for other corporations not to follow along.

      • #2728270

        Right, Boycot is the only way

        by dazhig ·

        In reply to I couldn’t agree more

        No laws, no campaign promises will stop the trend of outsourcing. Only the American consumers can stop it by boycotting whoever that does outsourcing, including those that helps and prmotes outsourcing such as M. & C. Otherwise what you predicted will happen: worse recession and housing market free fall.

    • #2728280

      Luddites of IT

      by drmemory ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      The U.S. economy has a long history of pioneering industries and paring them down to highly efficient producers. To do so means that what was once rare and specialized becomes a commodity, a transformation that creates economic value. Yes, it also means that the employment picture changes and often quicker than the employees can adapt in todays world. Although adversely impacted by the changes in IT, I refuse to be seduced by ‘victim’s rhetoric’ and bemoan the very system that has brought me so much opportunity in the past. I choose to believe that my future is not constrained by the past.

      • #2728269

        Re: Luddites of IT

        by injun_cowboy ·

        In reply to Luddites of IT

        Hear, hear!

      • #2728217

        Wow! Finally, a voice of reason not whimpering!

        by jfoster ·

        In reply to Luddites of IT

        So, with that said, what do you see as the next steps to making a change?

    • #2728278

      Outsourcing is BAD for the USA!!!

      by mrwassermann ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing


      Most people who think outsourcing is a good thing,
      are either in management or just intreated in the bottom line.

      I feel the american worker is being punished for making america what it is today. You can allways
      find someone who is willing to work for less. So
      why not offshore the high paid exec? Or the Doctors, I bet we can get a bunch of cheap lawyers
      for over seas to boot! So if we offshore all the jobs, we can all be burger flippers!

      Let’s look at history to see if it makes sence to
      offshore manufacturing and IT, not to mention other important jobs.

      Lets look at WW II: We manufactured equipment for
      the US Army, Navy and Air Fource, but also supplied, England, France, Russia and at least a dozen more. Germany could never hope to keep up and thus they were over run.

      Then looks at the cold war with Russia, we forced them to spend huge amounts of money trying to keep up with our technology. We won because we had superior technology.

      What would happen if after time, our technical edge were lost and China or India or Pakistan became the world tech leader?

      We were nearly 50 years ahead of them, but they are fast catching up.

      We educate and train their people at the expense of our own. Then they talk what they have learned and go back to their own country and start building the same products, but now they don’t need us.

      Don’t say it can’t happen, because it did, just look at the oil industry, we go in set things up and then they host nation takes over. It was our technology that got them out of the stone age.

      So my advice, keep giving things away until America is no longer a world leader.

      I am sure everyone would like a job flipping burgers.


      • #2728261

        Re: Burger flipping

        by peteg ·

        In reply to Outsourcing is BAD for the USA!!!

        Michael et al,

        You mention burger flipping — if all of us lose our jobs, who is going to buy the burgers? I eat out once every two months because I lost my IT job 3 years ago and can’t get another. Some people say “Update your skills!”. Who is going to pay for that? I don’t have any savings left. I even had to spend my IRA and pay the penalties for that! And the Federal Government doesn’t even know I exist any more, because I’m off unemployment (it ran out 2 years ago).

        This is what galls me the most.

      • #2728259

        Also outsource the White House, The Congress and the Courts

        by dazhig ·

        In reply to Outsourcing is BAD for the USA!!!

        I am sure we can find a President in another country that does not need a jumbo 747 and a fleet of SUVs and chefs, etc. A lot cheaper, isn’t it?

      • #2728252

        Outsourcing and Racism

        by injun_cowboy ·

        In reply to Outsourcing is BAD for the USA!!!

        I think the current IT outsourcing uproar has to do with a form of racism. Yes, that’s what it it. Tell you why. ‘Cos it’s jobs going to places like India, Mexico & China. No one cried foul when techie jobs went to the factories set up in Good Ol’ Ireland, or Poland, or Germany or Holland or England. No sir! Those guys are OK. C’mon folks, you know it!

        • #2728155

          not the racism cry again

          by huh?what? ·

          In reply to Outsourcing and Racism

          Germany, UK, Canada and so on basically have the same standard of living as the US. If they can beat us on price/quality then so be it. Also, the trade with them is two-way.

        • #2729929

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by jrcrutcher ·

          In reply to not the racism cry again

          Touche’. I believe that this hits right on what the complaint is all about. We can’t compete with people to do the same job for less pay because of the vast disparity in cost of living, per capitia income and etc. We can’t compete when we are required to live end contend with a free market system and the economic fluxuations inherent in the system of supply and demand when a nation such as China artificially pegs its currency to 10 cents on the dollar. We can’t compete because these economies can’t afford our goods and services at much more than the actual cost of production when our goods and services are allowed access to their markets without prohibitive tarrifs and taxes. This is NOT a global economy. Were it one then my services would have about the same value anywhere, my consumer spending power would carry near the same weight anywhere and the cost and standard of loving would be fairly well aligned for all of the nations and economies that I must adjust my spending and payroll to compete against.

    • #2728273

      Two Waves of Attack from Overseas

      by ken_yoshimoto ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Not only are IT jobs being outsourced overseas to India, but H1B IT engineers from overseas are taking our jobs here in the US. After my company went belly-up, even with 20 years as an IT engineer, I was left jobless. Mid-level managers from overseas who don’t understand what it takes to be a successful IT engineering manager were hiring young just out of college H1B applicants while I struggled to make ends meet.

      This used to be a good profession, but found myself out of work for 14 months. For the last year and a half I have worked at 40% of my old salary with no benefits. I do 50% more work than my H1B co-workers who are making more twice what I make. They ask me job-related questions I learned in the “school of hard knocks.”

      I am now contemplating a career change just to support my family. I see a large skillset being permanently lost from our workforce because of H1B Visas and off-shoring.

      • #2728231

        It gets worst

        by init ·

        In reply to Two Waves of Attack from Overseas

        What you thought of just a temporary worker to come to USA for no more than 3 years is no longer true, these individuals are now finding companies that would hire them and resolve their immigrations status permanently. All the employer has to do, is to demonstrate that the skill set required to fulfill that opening wasn’t available from the pool of unemployed. However, and as we all know it, companies cheat when they do this. They post jobs with ridiculos salaries and requirements, so that very few people apply for it, thus, eliminating any other possible candidate.

        Then there’s also the multitude of freelancer, filling up all of the contract positions, with rates as low as a school teacher. And how are these folks able to afford anything? Simple, these folks move from town to town to where the projects are, they leave on apartments without buying a house, thus, paying taxes. So not only they take our jobs, our money, but they make use of our highways, schools, parks and others, and don’t pay the properity taxes, that you and I pay.

        This is why the government implemented the so called “Compensatory Tax”, but just like anything else, these folks have found ways to go around it.

      • #2728202

        H1B visas and other items

        by billywade88 ·

        In reply to Two Waves of Attack from Overseas

        If you really want to take some action on H1B and other forms of “legal” immigration/job giveaways, go out to They have an auto fax program that allows you to automatically sends faxes to your state and national government representatives. The statements are well written and to the point.
        At least let them know how pissed off you are about what is being rammed down our throats by the industrial/military/corporate machine that is in control of our economy–and who don’t give one good damn about the average American.

      • #2728033

        I feel for you

        by american_it_guy ·

        In reply to Two Waves of Attack from Overseas

        and am inches from that myself.
        This is exactly why TechCEO is wrong and what they are doing to the backbone of our country is criminal.

      • #2727879

        Why mid-level management is in control

        by orpheum ·

        In reply to Two Waves of Attack from Overseas

        Bottom line is – you were a force to be reckoned with. Mr H1B was not. Management saw their rise to the top (or the illusion thereof) in a fresh off the boat tech who would serve as their bitch and reflect the manager’s positive influence in the company to upper mgmt and thereby secure said manager’s job. The H1B will never pose a threat to mgmt for at least 5 years or till they themselves are promoted to mgmt – whichever comes first. Humans tend to band together ONLY in times of need and desperation.
        On another note, Ken, I am truly sorry about your situation as I ahve been in and out of this boat for a couple of years too. Only I’ve found a couple of tiny businesses in a vertical market which has allowed me to keep afloat every now and again. I have lost my apartment in a NYC suburb and have been admitted to the ER without health insurance 6 times over the past 3 years.
        I sure hope someone worth a crap reads this, Ken.
        Stay strong and keep your chin up, man.
        GOD BLESS

    • #2728271

      It’s our own fault…

      by todd ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      How many times have we, as consumers, called a company that has outsourced their customer service department and received poor customer service? How many times have we called about a defective product only to be told, it will be taken care of in the next version. You know, the one where the price doubles because they had to hire someone that actually earned all the certifications instead of making them up to get the job and no body bother to check the credentials.

      Yet, most of us still tolerate it for various reasons.

      Until we say enough is enough, and stop doing business with companies that are trying to find a way to cut cost at the expense of customer service, or product quality, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

      I firmly believe in the old adage, ?You get what you pay for.?

      • #2728263

        Re: It’s our own fault…

        by injun_cowboy ·

        In reply to It’s our own fault…

        Sorry, but I find that the Indian at the other end of the phone is more likely to be nicer and caring than I have seen coming from our cus-serv folks here in the USA. Really. Why, just a year back there were articles galore about how bad our cus-serv had gotten! Fact is, the 1st step to good CS is having a caring tone – not typically found in our CS folks.

    • #2728249


      by ramrhein ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      first manufacturing goes away and we’re told don’t worry knowledge jobs will take over. now that the knowledge jobs are going away whta next, service jobs? ther’s only so many mcdonalds and walmarts out there. if there are fewer decent paying jobs, who will have money to buy the products?

    • #2728247

      Re: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      by peteg ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I’ve been out of work since April 2001! I was a successful System Administrator, but there hasn’t been any work in the New York City area for 3 years. Certainly 9/11 made it a lot worse.

      Some people say “Why don’t you move to where jobs are?”, to them I say “Who is going to pay for it?” My unemployment ran out two years ago. There are also those who say “Upgrade your skills!” To them I say the same thing “Who is going to pay for it?” I have no savings left, no IRA left and my wife is only working part-time. Do I understand why I can’t get a job? NO! I’m 59 years old, have a mortgage, and a working life left of about 10 years or less. Who would hire me? Age discrimination? Hell yes!

      If this is a recovery, where are the jobs? Why doesn’t the Fed count the long-term unemployed? Because they don’t care, and the Democrats are just as guilty as the Republicans.

      Why doesn’t the government give assistance to the long-term unemployed? See above.

      I’m mad and can’t take it anymore.

      • #2728239

        Peteq where are you

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to Re: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

        Maybe us baby boomers need to start a ground swell movement against outsourcing. Look what we did in the 60’s and 70’s.

        By the way, first one to boycott is CNet.

        Write them and tell them you will no longer read their articles, or support their advertisers.

        And tell TechRepublic to take the HP Ad’s off or they are next to go the way of the dinasour.

        • #2728219

          Re: Ground swell against outsourcing

          by peteg ·

          In reply to Peteq where are you

          Maybe all of us IT people need to start a drumbeat against Federal policy allowing Outsourcing. We need for EVERY IT person to send email to President Bush, Vice President Cheney and all their Congress people demanding they do something about the problem. If we do that in LARGE numbers, they will listen.

        • #2728216

          So lets build a WEB Site and Advertise It

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Re: Ground swell against outsourcing

          So, lets build a WEB Site and advertise it via every means possible and let people click on a button and send a note to Politicians….

    • #2728244

      Build a Boycott Web Site

      by ahickman ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Is there an out of work web site developer that would want to work on a Boycott Companies that outsource jobs out of the US?

      If so, contact me. Plus the Liberal Press will eat this up and bring this site out to the world.

      And as we know, most of the press in this country is very Left Wing…..

      • #2728234

        Hey Bill Riley!

        by injun_cowboy ·

        In reply to Build a Boycott Web Site

        “Liberal Press” … what are you a commie-pinko? A “liberal press” is what makes America great – else, we’d all be “unfair and imbalanced” like Fox (god forbid!). Liberal is NOT the left – Liberal means “fairminded and accepting”. Something old Bill claims to be, but is not.

        • #2728227

          Gee Whiz

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Hey Bill Riley!

          What I meant is that the liberal press will pick this up. The conservative press will not want to touch this as they feel the real focus of the elections is American Security and Defeating Terrorism. Listen to Limbaugh and Hannity. This subject hardly ever comes up

        • #2730272


          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Hey Bill Riley!

          If fair minded and accepting is name calling I opt out. You contridict yourself in your first sentence.


      • #2728710

        Already got one

        by infoaaa19 ·

        In reply to Build a Boycott Web Site

        Go to If you want you can use it Get everyone together, and I will create as much publicity as you want. Boycott and crying is great but we must also try to find solutions for it… B of A and Sprint PCS and all the others you want to boycott, also moved all your credit information offshore. Someone already tried to get a phone in my name. In Northern California there are at least 250000 people are not working. The key is to find a solution, ie no tax deduction for overseas work, and write a proposal for the ballot in November for your State.

        • #2727873

          Tariff. tariff, tariff

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to Already got one

          feel free to use my suggestions and ideas to good use on your sites. I am not an activist but God knows I now have the free time to become one.

    • #2728230

      The Real Answer

      by injun_cowboy ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      What we really need, folks, is less whining about offshore outsourcing, and more thought into how to make your next contract absolutely water tight. Just 5 years back, when companies were dying to attract talent, why, the frsh faces out of college asked and got everything. But they did not have it in a WT contract. That’s what we need. Then it will cost your bosses more to lose you! And if they still op to do that, take your money, honey, and go retire in Sunny Goa! Yeah!

      • #2728225

        Fi on Contracts

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to The Real Answer

        As we all know, labor contracts are hard to enforce. Especially if you do not live in a right to work state.

    • #2728215

      Outsourcing Woes!

      by lrsprague ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I must concur with Orpheum on this, TechRepublic! Last year, I worked at Intel as a contractor in Oregon, along with several other NQL Test Engineers, and sadly, the building I was in was 80% vacant. You know where those jobs went? INDIA, that’s right: INDIA. Intel laid-off most of their permanent workforce since 9/11 and sent those jobs overseas, just like Orpheum mentions that IBM did. Now, I understand that high tech companies need to invest in and develop markets where they foresee the next generation of sales going to, however, it’s very short-sighted to do so at the cost of those American jobs and innovations which made these companies great in the first place! I am not prejudice. INDIA has one of the lowest costs of living in the world, while maintaining a free education system that provides high tech learning at low or NO cost, to their citizenry. The result is that graduates from INDIAN universities can live on $10,000/yr. versus an avg. of $70,000 – $90,000/yr. for the equivalent American IT professional. No wonder that companies are flocking to INDIA, Pakistan, Taiwan and the Phillipines for lower cost labor!! The problem is my friends, that in being concerned for their current quarter’s results, greedy executives have damaged their country’s long-term ability to compete in the world with made in the USA products & services. I am another statistic in the post-9/11 job loss tragedy, and I’m but one of millions in the same boat! When are American executives going to wake up to the long-term damage they are causing and when is our government going to intervene so that people like US will have an opportunity to return to work at a reasonable wage?

      • #2728196

        Cry Babies and whinieasses

        by rfdemond ·

        In reply to Outsourcing Woes!

        I’ve read this thread and never have I been more ashamed to be an american. Greedy corporate executives, uncaring management… Get a grip – Corporate executives are in their roles to minimize costs and maximize profits period! It appears that many of you feel that your employer’s owe you a job, guess what …they don’t. You owe them, you owe them quality, dedication, loyalty and a days work for a days pay.

        You are all correct, the primary reason jobs are going offshore is due to greed, the problem with all of you is though that you think the greed is on the part of Corporate America, I submit to you that it is your greed that is causing it!!! This is the real world, no one owes you anything, you need to work to get what you want and you need to keep working to keep what you have. Many years ago, we began to lose manufacturing jobs, why, because the worthless unions kept demanding more and more for the same amount of work, the alternative, find another source of labor. After a few years of unemployment, those manufacturing employees woke up, realized that they were to blame for their own destiny, agreed to be more competitive, and the jobs came back. The same needs to happen here, IT salaries are way out of line with their contemporires (sp?), it is imperitive that you get a grip on what you are really worth and what you are really contributing to the Company’s bottom line. Let us not forget, no matter how you look at it, IT is nothing more than an expense to a corporation, it does not generate profit no matter how much you would like to think that it does. You need to hunker down and show management how you can reduce the IT budget and show your worth that way rather than sitting on your asses and crying about lost jos. This is America, do what we have always done in the face of adversity, put your nose to the grindstone and your shoulder to the wheel and just get the job done. Then Corporate executives won’t feel the need to move jobs offshore. Your biggest problem is that you are not showing what you are worth, you are too busy moaning and groaning about everything and not actually producing a damn thing! What made America great in the first place was good old fashion hard work, too many of you are too busy looking for the easy way out. No one owes you anything, get out and earn it. If that means you have to go flippin burgers, well then do it but do it with pride, dedication and a sense of purpose. If you had done that in the first place you probably would still have an IT job today! America is it’s own worst enemy, we are spoiled little brats and most of us need a smack on the ass to get us motivated in the right direction. If you don’t want your job to disappear, then show your employer every day that you are worth what he is paying you, otherwise, he is going to do what the stockholders hold him responsible to do; make profits. And lastly, think about it, how many of you own stock, do you not expect it to be an income generating investment? If you do, then do your part to ensure that it happens, demonstrate your worth and you can keep the jobs here!!!

        • #2728182

          100% agree

          by mikesimov ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          I totally agree. American IT Pros were spoiled years ago and took their big salaries for granted. The reality is that people will always try to find cheap quality products. One should not cry about outsourcing, but at the same time buy cheaper korean and japanese cars.
          Before you start whining think about the billions of people that live with less than $100 per month.

        • #2728163

          You Go Mike

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to 100% agree

          I guess you will volunteer to show us how to live in America for $100/month. Let us know what underpass you will be living under.

        • #2729924

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by jrcrutcher ·

          In reply to You Go Mike

          For the past 6 months I have been living on $205.00/month compliments of military disability. I am not under an underpass yet but the hand writing is on the wall. My house is in foreclosure, my credit card debt is growing (interest only because I can’t even afford to pay the minimum payment), me electricity is from a drop cord from a compassionate neighbor and it scares the hell out of my to drive to what few interviews that I can get because aside from no longer being able to aford insurance, if I even have so much as a flat tire then that is exactly where I will have to abandon my 1987 pickup. Still Wendy’s and Mcdonalds won’t hire me because “with my education, background and skills I will be gone at the first available tech job”. Unemployment is long gone as is the 401k, IRA and all of my personal savings. Still we persist in increasing the amount of these scab workers at every available opportunity.

        • #2728172

          Speaking of Reality Checks…

          by bwinters ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          Take a good look at how well owners of some companies have been taking care of their stockholders: Enron, Tyco, Anderson, and the list goes on. You mostly only hear of the big companies, but there have been several smaller ones engaging in illegal practices as well for the benefit of the few at the top. Please explain how this is not greed.

          However, I do agree that workers need to show their value – afterall, they’re being paid to do their job. However, several of my peers lost their jobs and were outstanding workers. The dot bomb did most of this, but the frustration you’re reading about in this thread is not from cry babies and whiners, but from people who want to reclaim the jobs they’ve lost and get back at what they do best.

        • #2728171

          Get Real !

          by dilbert_envy ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          Your opinion of the quality work that has always been done by American IT personnel shows that you are neither involved with IT or are ? or wannabe — part of the myopic management that will sell it’s collective soul for a quick metrics or bonus fix.

          IT compensation has always been high because the comparative quality is high and the risks associated with failure demand knowledgeable personnel. In short, if the American worker can?t do the job he or she gets fired. With the current policy of ?off shoring?, the American worker gets fired if he or she CAN do the job. Every business case that I have seen that purports to justify sending IT jobs offshore has done so by failing (in many cases deliberately) to recognize and/or report all of the costs accruing to the company as a direct result of that action. These include: diminished Good Will, increased overall delivery times, multiple reworks, quick response to competition, loss of intellectual resource capital; increased security risks; and many others ? they also never cover the alternative that requires that same management to property address general business opportunities and their associated risks. Put simply, most are simply a quick fix for the manager who can?t (or won?t) do their jobs.

          Since I do own stocks, and have managed relevant personnel, and served on corporate boards, I can assure you that what most people are complaining about is the failure of corporate management to exercise true due diligence and best management practices. Short-term gain that comes at the very existence of the business is never good policy. In the case of ?off shoring?, it is simply suicidal. It?s high time we started calling it ?Corporate Treason?, simply because the name fits.

        • #2728148

          Get Real yourself

          by rfdemond ·

          In reply to Get Real !

          First of all, perhaps I should have given a bit of my own background, I am in fact an extremely technical IT professional with a very accomplished career spanning nearly 30 years. I’ve done everything from Assembler programming to running my own IT Services Company for the past 10 years. I also spent 15 years working for a fortune 5 Company managing a Corporate Computer Center supporting over 65K users, so I do in fact feel qualified to give an opinion that is based on solid knownedge and understanding of IT.

          Your response still indicates a cry baby attitude, it is not an issue of whether you can do the job or can do it well, it is a simple matter of economics, if I can by equivelent talent for 1/10th the price, that as a corporate executive, I am mandated to do so in the best interests of my stockholders. This is not a quick fix, this is a corporate strategy to help companies remain competitive in a difficult economy. What you fail to realize is that failure to do some of these drastic cost cutting steps will only lead to your loss of your job in another year or two anyway because your company cannot compete in this economy. Do not be deluded for one minute, this is no longer a US economy, we live in a global soceity now and Corporate managers absolutely must understand that and develop business strategies that take that into account, the Internet has done this for us (or as you may prefer to say, to us). Competing in a global economy means that it is imperitive for US Management to seek the most efficient way to lower costs or we will lose everything to thirld world economies. Again, look what hapened in the 80’s with the automotive market, UAW demanded wages that were so high that we had to sacrifice quality in to stay in business, the Japanese came in and destroyed our economy and we had to fight like hell to get it back. This is no different, get smart, get competitive, demonstrate your worth and you may be able to keep your job. Keep whining and moaning and for sure, it’s going to go to India.

        • #2728089


          by kevin.thomas ·

          In reply to Get Real yourself

          Yes companies need to be competitive but in the USA people cannot live on 1/10 their salary. If big corp wants to help stay competeitive stop giving themselves multi million $ bonuses. If Gov’t and Corps could make it where Americans could buy homes and support families on 1/10 the salary they would surley do it. But Big Corp USA lobbies to get the politicians in office that will give them the best breaks possible. Example is that all these new tax laws that went into effect benefit the rich and do nothing for anyone else. Gov’t deludes that the $1000.00 a year that they gave back to me will fix it all. Hardly, my taxes in other areas ate that up and then some.

        • #2728075


          by rfdemond ·

          In reply to Disagree

          You really think you have tax problems. Let me clue you in to some very interesting statistics about who deserves tax breaks and who does not. Do you realize that the top 1% of taxpayers in this country pay for 36% of the entire US budget and that they top 5% pay for 64% of the entire US budget. That means that the remaining 95% of the citizens of this country pay only 36% of the entire US budget. Does this sound fair to you? Also, are you aware that the supposed 3 tier tax system of 15%/25% and 35% is also skewed to screw the top wage earners, they do that by capping what we are allowed to claim for deductions and a few other nasties. So please don’t think you have it so tough on taxes when some of us are paying more in taxes than the majority of you make in a year.

        • #2728071

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by kevin.thomas ·

          In reply to Taxes

          Which goes to show that if your taxes are more than my salary your salary must way over mine. That means you are much better off than me anyway.

        • #2730518

          You’ve been sold the big money line

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Taxes

          You have bought into the “big money” line of reasoning.

          The reason that the top 5% pay 64% the tax burden is that they have 64% of the income.

          Excuse me if I don’t feel sorry for the poor rich SOBs that are working even harder to shift the tax burden away from them so that they can have it all.

          Almost ALL of the tax shift plans be they sales, flat, or vice taxes, shift the tax burden from the upper class to the working and middle classes.

          The flim-flam men who are pushing these proposals make it look like we will all get a tax cut.
          In reality, these plans will result in higher taxes for workers and families while significantly reducing the tax burden for the rich.


        • #2728078

          It’s individual greed, not stockholder interest.

          by dilbert_envy ·

          In reply to Get Real yourself

          Every time I hear someone say they are “mandated” to act in the interest of stockholders, I ask just how they know what those interests are.

          They always turn out to be the same things that allow those making the decision to either hide their own management failures, get a bonus by reducing expenses for the quarter, or achieve some metric allowing them to otherwise look good to those further up the corporate ladder. It seems as though the stockholder interest is always _assumed_ to be lower costs. If those savings were actually passed through to the stockholders, we would be guilty of whining. In reality, they usually go toward the protection of internal incompetents.

          Stockholder interests are protected by the production of quality goods and services at a _reasonable_ price consistent with overall corporate goals. If cheaper were better we would all drive unsafe cars, fly on aircraft that sometimes completed their journey, and drink vinegar instead of wine. It’s management’s responsibility to do what is best for the company, not what is cheapest.

          If the assumption is that the true overall cost of using in place, citizen employees is ten times that of outsourcing to a foreign country, then someone is smoking controlled substances. Anyone who assumes, or advances the belief, that management is more concerned with the interest of stockholders than that of their own immediate enrichment is selling those drugs.

        • #2728056

          Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          by rfdemond ·

          In reply to It’s individual greed, not stockholder interest.

          Like it or not, what the stockholders want is good financial results that will cause their inestment to generate a profit. That is what you want when you invest and it’s whateveryone else wants as well.

          Your major issue is that you just don’t like the decision and so you are trying to rationalize why it’s a bad decision. I’ve not seen you put forth one solid piece of evidence that it is a bad decision, just rhetoric and rhetoric my friend does not pay dividends or increase the value of stock.

          I do agree with you that cheaper does not necessarily equal better, however, from my extensive experience in the field, I have found that the Indian and chinese programmers to be among the best I’ve ever seen, and to be honest, they don’t whine and cry like you do, they just sit at their desks and work, stay out of office politics and gossip, and at the end of the day produce far more than most of the americans do. Yes, we are losing the war but not because it’s being taken away from us, but because we aren’t doing enough to show we want to win. Get off you ass and put forth the same effort and passion that you have shown on this board today and maybe you can save your job.

        • #2728004

          Short term thinking again …

          by dilbert_envy ·

          In reply to Reply To: Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

          Most people who preach stockholder profit forget that the goal is to return earnings over the long hall. The idea that an investor is entitled to a profit is misdirection — an investor is entitled to receive the net worth (or market value) of the investment upon its sale. The profit – if any – comes from the public perception of its value.

          If I am whining and crying it’s not because I am concerned about my job. I’m concerned about the long-term value of my investments. I see that value being trashed along with the intellectual resources and the ability to recover ? and not just in IT.

          I too have extensive experience in dealing with development issues, and also with quality issues and good management practices. Over 40 years of management (including that of a publicly traded firm) and consulting, have convinced me that what we are seeing today has little to do with corporate concerns and almost everything to do with the CYA management currently in control. Yes, many Indian and Chinese programmers do produce more than their US or UK counterparts. At the surface level, the quality often appears to be the same. In my experience when you try to introduce changes after the development cycle (17 projects of over 20,000 hours each reviewed) the final ?customer acceptance level? shows the impact of this ?additional production? to be largely without substance. Customer satisfaction and repeat business keep the doors open. The lessons learned from these exercises are simple: There is a substantial hidden cost with outsourcing; it increases with off shoring; and its failure, like any other, leaves a legacy that hangs in the air like the smell of death.

          Could we do better ? of course we could. I have also seen managers, leads, and even directors of IT with no clue as to the importance of timely production, the necessity for quality, or the ability to give clear direction to those who are actually creating the deliverables. In quality audits I track these down to the individual level. These are also the same individuals who are the first to complain about non-production, poor employee attitudes, and seek quick fixes for their own lack of management ability. If I could fire them on the spot, I would. Unfortunately, it usually takes about 6 to 9 months to get rid of the really bad trash and I can only start that process if they report directly in my chain. In the meantime, most of my daily effort goes toward deciding which projects get funded and which ones don?t.

        • #2730260

          Reality Check is Tough medicine

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Get Real yourself

          I agree with you.

          Additionally, employees at all levels need to sell their value to the company. When an employee prepares for salary review they can no longer just go in and listen to the “boss” tell them how they have done this past year. They need to go in with charts and graphs (so to speak) and present their worth to the bottom line.

          Managers need to do the same on their level. More importantly the manager needs to sell their work groups worth to the company bottom line.

          With world communication where it is today there is no reason for any employment to be located in any particular region of the globe.

          CEO and CFO need to be sold on the value of any given organization that is in the company. This is not our parents work environment. It is a new day and those that survive will be the ones that adapt and grow with it.


        • #2730273

          It would be difficult to agree more

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Get Real !

          Spot on.

          As long as People are put into positions they are not qualified for and as long as there is greed in the world we will suffer with these problems. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.


        • #2728164

          Good Point

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          That is a great point…..I am willing to work at my old job for a 50% cut in pay. However, the job is gone. So what do I and others do now?

          And I do not think we are whining…we are caught in the wheels of commerce and I for one frankly do not want to be axel grease

        • #2730257

          A suggestion

          by altekmg ·

          In reply to Good Point

          Have you possibly looked around to see if you expertise could be used to start a small consulting firm to support those businesses that are too small to hire you full time. It is scary as all get out but beats being out of work.


        • #2730174

          Small Business

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to A suggestion

          I have tried. With 10,000 hi tech workers out of work the market is flooded in my area and people are now doing support for companies for $15/hour…

        • #2730394

          Then why did management not

          by american_it_guy ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          say anything to the preverbial employee?
          No ultimatums, no warnings, no guidance.
          From what I understand no input to the secret plans to outsource for the vast majority.
          Why? because it was a devious “cut throat” endevour.
          There is your shame and guilt my friend.

          Things other than long hours in vain made us great. Apple pie? Baseball? how about a well rounded life?

          I work harder each year; years ago my type was thought of as a workaholic, now it is the norm in our scardy-cat society as owners want it.
          Indentured Servants ring any bells?
          The people building the house next door can’t speak a lick of english. Not only do they not have any rights and are getting screwed, I can’t lawfully help them.
          We are in this mess because of law & greed.
          Americans are taught that “its not your concern”

          True, I see a lot of lazyness, but all my employer need do is say handle it, and it stops there, I would nerver tolerate it if it was up to me, usually it is not. Otherwise its harassment or some other bull.

          No hands are clean in this mess.

        • #2730379

          Social Responsibility

          by derhexer ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          I dispute the idea that managers have a responsibility to control costs and increase profits period. Managers, and their companies, are part of society. They also have a responsibility to do as little harm as possible, and maybe even do some good. If their sole responsibility is to increase profits, then society should allow them to pollute streams, sell tainted food, or generate acid rain.

          Several years ago I read about a textile mill in Massachusetts that caught fire during the winter. The mill was heavily damaged. A day later, the mill owner announced that all of his employees would be paid until the mill was rebuilt. If his sole responsibility was to increase profits, he should have used this opportunity to reopen his mill in Mexico or India. Made me proud to be an American.

        • #2730532

          Malden Mills

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Social Responsibility

          The owner of Malden Mills was in a unique position. They had a product (Polar Fleece) that they had little or no competition for.

          Unfortunately, Malden Mills has fallen on hard times and is reducing staff and potentially going to close down.

          Social responsibility usually ends when a company transitions from a family owned business to a corporation.

          Corporations tend to do only what is good for the bottom line.

          Anti-pollution laws and consumer watchdog groups have made it more economical to control pollution than to simply dump the waste in the local stream.

          On the flip side, there are now “fly-by-night” waste haulers.
          These companies haul waste to a storage location then when they have stored all that they can, they disappear.
          Or, they open valves on the trucks and spread the waste along a road.

          In the US, the present administration has hung out the open for business sign.
          Any company that makes a significant campaign contribution can get environmental rules that restrict them given a second look.

          The H1B visa program originated not because the US had too few information workers, but because the companies did not want to pay the escalating salaries.

          Outsourcing simply skips the need to bring a worker to the US and pay US wages.

          Like it or not, the goal of the rich is to eliminate the middle class and reduce the lot of the rest to that of 3rd world slums.

          The only option, is to support the small local business man.
          Avoid spending any money with large corporations.

          Most of all, DON’T shop at WalMart.


        • #2728690

          That is True BUT….

          by infoaaa19 ·

          In reply to Cry Babies and whinieasses

          The Federal and State Goverments give you tax breaks if you provide jobs. Unfortunately, these tax breaks also apply to India. All we have to do is close the loopholes. I have no arguments with corporations are there to make money and I certainly not suggesting that corporate officers should go to the School of Mother THeresa Compassion Studies. but we must close the loopholes permitting these companies to profit at our expense!!!

    • #2728198

      Frustration in Flying Round the World

      by proxcauseny ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Our office is actively searching for effective US based customer support in determining our selections for new purchases. Telephone tag around the world does not work. I would greatly appreciate TR’s post of suppliers that provide service from employees that are located here in the US. I challenge fellow IP professional to find upper tier support from these far flung outsourced locations, and can understand or make themselves understood by primary tier support staffers in India, The Phillipines or Korea. Outsourcing to these locatiions rips off the IP consumer!!!!!

    • #2728195


      by lrsprague ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      This website’s existence depends on IT pros who suffer from this outsourcing phenom. more than any other industry out there. I’m sorely disappointed that TechRepublic would stoop to that level. It means that they [TechRepublic’s Mgmt] are motivated more by $$$, than any other reason. Hey, I’m all for cash, that’s why we all work, right? But our ‘tech resource website’ shouldn’t bow to the same evil masters that our own managers and executives bowed to, otherwise it’s no better than the outsourcers themselves!

    • #2728190

      guerilla time ?

      by huh?what? ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      You would think managers deciding to outsource IT are p*ssing off the wrong people.

      If you are a programmer, networking guru etc and out of work with lots of free time. Maybe put that time to good use attacking the companies doing the offshoring? As well as the Internet backbones leading to India and China?

      You can write all the letters to Congress you want. The big money wants this and will have it whether they have to pay off a Republican or a Democrat, party affiliation makes no difference at all. Remember NAFTA’s bi-partisan support.

      You may think hey I’ll go learn a trade. Well guess what, they are importing cheap labor to drive down wages for jobs that can’t be exported.

    • #2728188

      Boycott the recipients!

      by cepedajoe ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I think one area that is being missed is the willingness of many companies to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the outsourced services they get for far less.
      We need to make those companies who receive outsourced services aware of how they are being ripped off by the US companies providing those services and maybe then we’ll be able to see change.
      If I was a company receiving any kind of support services – for which I was asked to pay dearly – I would want to make sure that those services came from local labor.
      Unfortunately, in my experience, companies paying for the service don’t care where the labor comes from and very often they don’t even care what level of service they get.
      So, no matter how much we rant here, I don’t see this situation changing.
      Unemployed and sick of IT employment shenanigans.
      God bless us all.

    • #2728183

      Why be surprised by something no one considers important beng outsourced?

      by hmtattrie ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Let’s face it, companies have paid lip service to help desks forever. Having a tech support department or help desk is simply one of those ugly things that have to be done to sell software/hardware or electronic toys.

      The general quantity and quality of tech support is dismal at best, by design – they don’t care if your problem gets solved or not, only that you think someone is there to help you.

      It’s sort of like when Dad was teaching you to ride a bike and told you that he was running along holding on to the back of the bike – you turned around and realized that he had let go about 100 yards back – it’s the perception of help that matters – not the actual help itself.

      Having said this, it should come as no surprise what-so-ever that having a cheaper warm body on the other end of the phone line is seen as the way to go by most companies. If the average consumer demanded actual effective help (rather than someone parroting a tech manual) it would not be possible to ship jobs over to countries where the result is sub-standard. Anything that we as a buying public consider important is not left to some cheap third-world knock-off’s. Can you imagine the people who run the flood gates at the Hoover Dam, getting the sort of non-answers from tech support that the average Joe gets? I think there’d be a bunch of very pissed off people downstream from there (the ones who survived at least).

      So lets not go overboard blaming the Indians or Mexicans or anyone who will do the job for less money – even in this global economy, you get what you pay for and, if it’s considered “Worth it”, people and companies will pay more to get it.

      It’s just not that important.

      • #2728055

        Perception vs. the service reality

        by frappie ·

        In reply to Why be surprised by something no one considers important beng outsourced?

        HMTattrie may be on to something – its the perception of what is truly the end result of outsourcing that really matters at the end of the game. If companies think they are saving tons of $$, AND that they are getting great service, products, results, etc., then that is the way it will go. However, only when the quality suffers, confidentiality is broken , or the service is poor over some significant period of time will they rethink the outsourcing equation.

        Two cases in recent past that illustrate: 1) Legal troubles a San Francisco area hospital got into when an outsourcing medical transcription employee in Pakistan decided to threaten the hospital (and the outsourcing vendor). The disgruntled employee was not being paid in timely fashion (due to greedy Paki outsourcing vendor) so she decided to threaten hospital adminis – she stated she would post patient medical records on the web unless she was paid immediately. Needless to say – the whole issue with the vendor got addressed, and I think that vendor company has since been fired.

        2) Ever notice that when you call airlines these days for reservations or ticket changes you may hear a heavily accented voice? (And not like Noo Yawk accent either). I recently had to change an award ticket on Delta – and had to explain to the Bombay-based employee the actual rules of the game for making the changes to my ticket. Scary and frustrating.

        Only when companies lose $$, either through market share, inefficiencies, or lawsuits, will some managers have to rethink this situation…

        • #2730251

          Plane Tickets

          by hmtattrie ·

          In reply to Perception vs. the service reality

          Lucky thing you didn’t have to change the tickets half way through the trip. That’s a bitch to do even with real airline people – imagine what the 3rd party would have done with it. Hell, you might have ended up in his home neighborhood.

    • #2728181

      first H1B then exportation of the economy

      by ppcgm ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      some of the people who reported to me in the software company we all worked for in the late 90’s were replaced by H1B visa people and have never worked in IT again some six or seven years later … now all those jobs have been shipped out of the country, hasn’t anyone noticed that it’s not just the jobs that are exported but the entire segment of the economy ? so if they’re paying the salaries there they’d best expect to be able to market their products there too because that’s where the buying power is now

      • #2728157

        burger flippers?

        by vtassone ·

        In reply to first H1B then exportation of the economy

        What makes you people think that burger flipping jobs will be here forever? As soon as someone invents a teleporter those jobs will be shipped overseas also. Though most likly not to India.

        I like the DELL ads. They have all these nice Americans working in the help desk all night to answer calls. I wonder how many computers they would sell if the people new where the calls were being answered before they bought the computer.

        I worked for a call center for a major computer company. When they went to India I was getting many calls during the transition saying , THANK GOD I’m talking to a person that speaks english. I just got off the phone with a tech I could not understand. I just held my breath and smiled as my job went out the window.

        There is a bright side to this. I found a great job. I work for a local internet service from home. I can do everthing I need to do from my PC and I don’t have to put up with the corporate B.S.
        When a customer calls with a problem that is not internet related they bring the PC to me and I do repairs in my home workshop. It’s not a 60K job and I don’t have an SUV in the driveway but I pay the bills and I’m happy my family gets fed.

    • #2728170

      Killing the economic strength of the U.S.

      by savemyboat ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      My son, an IT professional, has just been notified by his employer, CVS, that within 6 months to a year, the majority of the IT department he works in will most likely be outsourced. At this point, I know of several IT people that have been out of work for a year or more and are surviving on temp or small part time jobs to keep going. While they are in that condition, they will not be buying that new car, or the new house, or much of anything else that fuels the U.S. economy. Sooner or later, the outsourcing will begin to affect other suppliers (e.g., computer supplies) and other businesses. Retail will be affected because of the loss of purchases. When people are in survival mode, they do not buy new stuff. All of this is nothing more than corporate greed. The main concern is the stockholders and to hell with the end customer and/or the quality of the product. Outsourcing will sooner or later flip back on this country in a very big way. There will be short term corporate gains of course, but the base needed to sustain growth will be further shipped away. Also, it is obvious that the condition of the world is pretty bad. If we continue to get into wars here and there (and we will, because we will be sucked into them regardless of who starts them) and the “outsourced” IT functions are suddenly cut off, then what?

    • #2728161


      by redhogrider ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I am truly amazed by the responses ” Cry Babies”, It’s all someone else?s fault! Right! My guess is that you men and women have been consumers for at least a decade, maybe several decades. What did you think would happen when we had everyone buying solely on the price? What kind of car do you drive? Where are your shoes, clothes, electronics made? Japan, China, Taiwan, Pakistan, India, Brazil!! Yes it is your hard earned money, but if you don’t feed more of it back to the companies that can give wages to our neighbors, then in time we are going to loose. This didn’t happen over night. I’m not picking on auto-workers but, Example: The guy that installs the right front wheel on every car or truck that passes by him everyday for his 40 year career, should not have a pension plan that makes him a fat cat the rest of his days, while the scientist that helps cure illnesses has to struggle after he quits working. It just doesn’t seem right, but I don’t make the rules. Economics, how will this all shake out? We could have 1000 answers to those questions, and anyone of them could be right! Those company officers that have made the choice to move off shore are doing it for one reason, return on investment, the stockholders. What percentage of stocks on the American Stock Exchanges is truly owned by Americans? We even have foreigners that liked seeing the attacks on the USA that even invest in our economy. They have no loyalty to anything but making more money! This is a much greater happening then just tech jobs going overseas.

    • #2728154

      Have a Clue techrepublic

      by rwsystems ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Guys, who is the target audience of this site? It apparently is not the American IT worker. I thought this article was a cruel hoax by some offshore hacker. Maybe you should rename, “Tech Republic of India”?

    • #2728144

      Simple Analogy: Would you pay someone to take care of your wallet?

      by johnzakucia ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Outsourcing opens up an organization to all kinds of espionage and security issues thatyou would no normally have to deal with otherwise. Every company has a lot of precious data they don’t want their competion to get ahold of. If anybody thinks otherwise, they’re crazy. “What’s in your wallet”

    • #2728143

      Simple Analogy: Would you pay someone to take care of your wallet?

      by johnzakucia ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Outsourcing opens up an organization to all kinds of espionage and security issues thatyou would no normally have to deal with otherwise. Every company has a lot of precious data they don’t want their competion to get ahold of. If anybody thinks otherwise, they’re crazy. “What’s in your wallet??”

      • #2728138

        even worse

        by american_it_guy ·

        In reply to Simple Analogy: Would you pay someone to take care of your wallet?

        they are opening up you wallet via SSN records.
        I used to take pride in my SSN, and care about it’s safekeeping.

        So, we have known for years that our SSN’s are residing on computers. Now it is probably sitting in several poorly maintained data centers 12,000 miles from us.
        Actually, a major SSN disaster just might be what the doctor ordered.
        It sickens me to know that American business has destoyed our number in this manner. It is not worth a dime now.
        Of course, we are going broke anyway, so the security part of the social is moot anyway.

        Oh gee, now the “fair and balanced” media “vote republican” chant is probably tring to convince us all that 401K is the real retirement plan.

        Ummm…’scuse me…I lost my tail on typical 401K planning even WITH outsourcing to supposedly save all this money. Right! The C-level officers took it home friends!

        Remember the Enron….

        The perfect example of what has happened/is happening to us cry-babies who want our country back.
        We want law & order in corporate America.

        • #2728116

          Tax Returns Prepared in India

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to even worse

          Even worse is the fact that our tax returns are being done in India. One company set up a business in India to do American Tax Returns. The American Company collects the information from the tax payer and electronically ships it over to India where the tax return is perpared.

          They not only know your SS#, they know you address, the names of your kids and how much you make, what charities you give to, and anything else that is on your tax return.

          And you worry about your SSN being compromised?

    • #2728129

      Americans Must Adapt to Change

      by techceo ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Education is needed here. Outsourcing is not the “end of America” or the American IT industry.
      See this article published by the Wharton Business School: Puzzling through the Jobless Recovery — Or Is It a Fundamental Shift?
      One of my key responsibilities is to accurately predict the future, and offshore outsourcing is critical to the long-term success of the American IT industry. The US comprises only about 5% of the world population. The rest of the world wants the exact same things Americans do. IT is critical to the development of other country’s economies. What the US needs to do is become the IT provider to the world. Protectionism won’t fly, and now we have some competition, but it is apples to oranges. I use offshore resources because I MUST. Amercian firms are years more advanced in business processes, finance, and marketing, etc. Furthermore, our legal system, for all its failings, is the most equitable, reliable, and predictable in the world. The US is the best place to buy from. Our company is currently developing a product using predominantly offshore labor which we shall resell internationally. The cost of the product would be too high for the market if all American tech labor were used. BUT the product is supported and guaranteed by American tech know-how. Outsourcing equillibrium is reached at 10% – 20% of a firm’s labor resources. So the displacement of American IT people is finite. I am also a closet techie–I spent amost $250k and years on my tech ed. Something I find almost hypocritical is that IT has been displacing millions of Americans from non-IT jobs for years. The same effect is now happening in IT. I find it interesting that the source of job displacement (technology) is now screaming about it displacing them. I am sympathetic indeed, but individuals must take responsibility for his/her own welfare. The industry is changing and always will, and individuals must adapt to it. A good book to read is “Who Moved My Cheese” by Spencer Johnson, M.D. Some people may be forced to change careers, but if policy is handled correctly, the US IT industry will rebound and “boom” again. The difference will be “who and where” is the customer. The future includes overseas. The US IT industry should be at the top of the world technology pyramid. We need to embrace, engage, and defeat foreign competition–not run from it. As Americans collectively, that is what we are about.

      • #2728112

        Just call it what it is: Greed

        by flyers70 ·

        In reply to Americans Must Adapt to Change

        Rationalize it all you want and keep your patronizing tone to yourself. There is one reason to go overseas: it’s NOT quality and don’t make a fool out of yourself by yammering about overseas techs being better educated because that is a HUGE myth as anyone who works in the field knows. That reason is low cost labor. Furthermore, it’s low cost labor that doesn’t seem to mind long hours and won’t question authority.

        It would be more honest if you would just call offshoring what it is: Greed. Afterall, the first company to do this didn’t do it to “keep up with the market place”. They SET the marketplace and all of the other CEO lemmings followed with visions of higher profit margins and higher personal bonuses.

        I have accepted the inevitable about this situation (you can’t put the crap back in the horse), however, I’ve backed off as a tech lead on some projects to concentrate on getting an MBA. I’ve already enjoyed project managers grovelling for me to come back and teach incompetant foreign workers and I’ve refused (and will continue to do so). The die has been cast for me. Afterall, we’ve all got a price; it’s just a question of who you’ll screw over to get yours in the name of text book business practices, right “TechCEO”?

        • #2728017

          To Flyers70

          by techceo ·

          In reply to Just call it what it is: Greed

          Sorry, ol’ bean, but you’re way off on this. Foreign workers are a pain-in-the-butt actually. “Greed” has nothing to do with it. “Survival” is the operative term. If I could use all American, I certainly would. It would make my job easier. And I am hardly a lemming, nor have I “screwed anyone over.”
          I hope your MBA helps your insight. Foreign workers are not “better” than Americans. They are less experienced and communication is even more of a challenge. They are, however, highly-motivated. This is something your could learn from. Your attitude is counterproductive. My primary market is the 5.7 billion people who do not live in the US. Instead of fighting the notion of training foreign workers, you should be grooming them to be your loyal subordinates. The wage disparity that exists is a temporary condition. Study your business history and you will see that all of this has occurred before. Your management skills, especially those utilizing remote teams, will be in strong demand. (You must first acquire some experience by working with some remote teams.) Your MBA will not help you unless you release your anger over the “way things SHOULD be” and learn to excel with “the way things are.” Otherwise, you could find yourself in a position where the foreign worker you refused to train today winds up being your boss tomorrow.

        • #2730533

          Wage Disparity?

          by flyers70 ·

          In reply to To Flyers70


          Thanks for the advice, but what you blithely call a “wage disparity” is a “wage chasm” when you look at how overseas consultants have depressed the wage market. That’s great for you; your overhead is down. It sucks for everyone else whose bargaining leverage has gone to nothing.

          And while I may work with remote teams in a managerial vein, I would never pass on my own technical expertise to an overseas consultant as I respect how real technical expertise is attained (I am an EE by trade). If they are as good as you say they are, they should be as skilled as any other consultant that walks through the door. Otherwise, your picking them on price and you will lose in the end.

          Again, thanks for the advice and take care!

          (I’ll have a beer for you at Happy Hour today)

        • #2728873

          No Blithe: You Have Power

          by techceo ·

          In reply to Wage Disparity?

          I can hear your frustration and anger. Is it justified? Sure. Is it helpful to you? No.

          A fast case study for you: My Wife.

          My wife works for a $6B a year company, and she is one of the best in the country at what she does. For the past four years, she has been training her own competitors…not on the other side of the world but in her own dept. This practice may sound like foolishness, but there are compelling reasons for it.

          My wife is one of the best, but she goes one better than that. She can reproduce herself. This is enormously valuable to her firm, and she is rewarded for her company contribution and team spirit.

          If you isolate yourself and practice personal protectionism, your overall value to the org is reduced. It will not get you on mgmt’s good side.
          This is not patronizing mgmt; you are gaining valuable leverage over them. You want mgmt to be personally indebted to you. If you must leave the job, you want a stable of people to sing your praises and not only release generic position info.

          A lot of what I learned came from mentors. I will forever be indebted to these people and will help them anyway I can. Between my wife and I, we have given more than we received. But we now have significant influence with many people.

          I think you should adopt a similar outlook and deploy strategic practices over tactical ones. There is a huge “chasm” in hourly costs for offshore. But that is only one component of “cost.” I know costs for offshore and domestic workers down to the gnat’s whisker. There are trade-offs, and the disparity is not as great as it seems superficially. Research the economic development of Japan and Korea. Production costs can change rapidly.

          There are many jobs that will never go offshore. If you can reproduce high-quality people in low-wage regions, your personal value will be through the roof. This will help you secure your personal position regardless of what happens in the industry. This may also help you gain more satisfaction and create a herd of life-long loyalists.

          I had a drink for you yesterday. With all sincerity, I wish you good fortune.

        • #2727864

          Level the playing field

          by orpheum ·

          In reply to To Flyers70

          Hey CEO,
          I was just wondering – are you a CEO in a company considered a ‘key player’?. Also, do you support the call for a heavy tariff on outsourced labor to level the playing field? or do we have to spend another 20 years or so, eating one meal a day and shacking up with our extended family so that we may compete with the global economy therby lowering the American standard of living. Or maybe just bow out of certain positions in industries where we’ve lost our foothold. There isn’t enough room in this country for everyone to become mgmt or exec ya know. Some of the MCSE’s who’ve worked under me are flippin burgers or pouring coffee.
          Second, how do you feel about the INS turning a blind eye on the unemployment rate in this country? I know this may not have been ‘the’ reason the rate has skyrocketed, but it is certainly a contributing factor affecting our local economies. Foreign workers from economically challenged countries tend to spend less in the new land they’ve landed upon, whether or not their wages and personal budgets permit.
          Please don’t mistake any of my wording as patronizing or sarcastic.

        • #2727780


          by techceo ·

          In reply to Level the playing field

          Well, Orpheum, some people think we are key players. But fortunes shift rapidly these days.

          I typically do not support tariffs on anyone from anywhere. I believe in free-market economics; it has an amazing ability to adapt all by itself. (There are limits to that, so it needs qualification. There must be reciprocation by our trade parters.)

          I am sympathetic to the plight of many quality American workers. This isn’t patronizing; I am the product of an impoverished family from a hell-hole of a small town. I am also an ethnic minority. I have first-hand experience with enormous adversity. I am neither tall, handsome, nor particularly bright. I believe our borders should be sealed tighter than grandma’s pickle jars; conversely, were I Mexican, I would be the first jumping the wall.

          It is unfortunate, but some jobs will be lost and never return. (The US has not manufactured a TV domestically since 1980.)

          The manner in which we compete is key to our collective technological and business survival. I alone made the decision to go offshore; it was no easy choice, and I paid hell for it. Even my wife’s friends said, “How could you? You’re taking American’s jobs!” No one in my firm was displaced by a foreigner, but we did not hire more Americans. (We intend to soon!)

          Long-term survival in our business is complicated. I am reviewing work this morning from our offshore depts, and I frequently think, “Aye Caramba! What the !@#$ are you thinking?!” It takes twice as long frequently to get the quality we need. There still is a savings but not as much as many believe. But, offshore will only improve, and there is no good way to contain it. So we must use it to our advantage.

          Our IT workforce will become smaller but more elite. (Much like the armed forces.) I knew many MCSEs were doomed even when the cert came out. (I am an MCSE and CNA too.) Low-level positions and the marginal-quality workers are the first to go.

          I like and use military analogies because they are relevant in many ways: Business is a competition for scarce resources. Like a military campaign, there will be casualties and losses, but we cannot focus on those aspects alone. We must focus on the strategic objective, and that is US global domination in IT. We can do it, and I will do everything in my power to help the cause.

      • #2728106

        Dear TechCEO

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to Americans Must Adapt to Change

        Dear TechCEO,

        I do not think anyone is running from change. If we hated change in the first place the last place we would work would be in IT. Things change almost hourly it seems like. I have been in IT since the 8086 was introduced and things have certainly changed over the past 24 years or so.

        The real issue here is not preventing change, but managing it in a way that the displaced IT workers in the US are given something to transition to. Currently, large companies make a decision to outsource and then hand out pink slips with usually some severence package that is a bandaid, and the government backs that up with 26 weeks of unemployment. After the severence and unemployment disappear what then?

        This loss of jobs is not like the ups and downs of employment in the Aerospace Industry in the 60’s and 70’s. The jobs that are not here are not here in my opinion because:

        1) The companies have not recovered enough to hire back IT workers, and frankly that does not seem like it is going to happen quickly enough.
        2) The jobs are permanently gone overseas.

        So its all well and good to embrace change. However, what do all of us who have or may end up losing houses, marriages, cars, retirement accounts, credit ratings and everything else that goes along with a major downward shift in income?

        And where do we get the money to re-train or obtain new training? I know I would love to have $10,000.00 to get more certs and maybe Unix and Linnux training and certs.

        But I, like a lot of other displaced IT workers are right now wondering where our next mortgage payment is coming from and where the money will come from to send the kids to college, and what happens if I get really sick, since I do not have any insurance.

        Again we are not whining, or whimpering or bemoaning our fate. All most of us want to do is work, pay our bills, have medical, dental and life insurance, feed our families and maybe have a few bucks to go out and have a bit of fun.

        So, how long do you think it will be before the bulk of us displaced workers will have a job with a living wage again?

        Perhaps your $250,000.00 in education came with a crystal ball. And I say that with no disrespect, since you are just as much at risk as the rest of us.

        • #2728047

          As much as I despise BillG, learn from him!

          by rfdemond ·

          In reply to Dear TechCEO

          You know what really irks me about a lot of this, you people are crying that your jobs are going away and yet you have the skill set to do something few other professionals have, get an idea, sit down and code it, get on the web and peddle it and make your own business. Not every problem in the world has been solved yet by technology, find a problem to solve and solve it, that way you don’t have to worry about someone else making decisions for you, you get to make them for themselves. Let us not forget this is how Gates, Allen and Balmer did it and look where they are today, and their idea wasn’t even sexy or fun, writing compilers sucks but they changed the world.

          It all keeps coming back to the same theme, if you don’t like the situation, change it, you have the power, just friggin do it!!!

        • #2728041

          There is always a solution

          by techceo ·

          In reply to Dear TechCEO

          This part of your statement is key: “workers in the US are given something to transition to.” First, the sentence sounds kind of like an entitlement mentality. (No offense intended.) No one has ever “given” me anything and job security is not something given or provided. Life security must be achieved by the individual; he or she must make their own. How to do that is a genuine challenge. Second, my business insight came from my business education and not tech ed. So I can see both sides. My wife and I have worked very hard to secure our personal lives outside of our careers. Back-ups, contingency plans, and disaster recovery are practices not only limited to data. “Managing Uncertainty” should be taught in our public schools. I am at risk but not to the same degree as many others in IT. I have viable contingency plans for every scenario, including changing fields completely. (Most people don’t work in IT.) Third, three members of my close family are in IT, and ALL of us have suffered. I personally have taken tremendous shots, and all I can say is that life remains interesting. My wife is a good example. She made big money last year in real estate. (She was a lowly accting clerk when we met.) It took her ten years to get there, but there will always be opportunities for motivated people. A career is not a life. There is sometimes severe pain with change, and I’ve been through it. The good part is that pain must only be endured once. How long it will take to recover is a subjective variable. Monetary things can be regained. A marriage, well, it may test a marriage. In my opinion, should a marriage fail because of economic misfortune, it was flawed as a marriage.

        • #2727981

          Again you miss the point….

          by ahickman ·

          In reply to There is always a solution

          You amaze me. Thank God there are people like you to point out the errors of our ways to the unwashed masses.

          The point TechCEO was not to absolve the out-of-work tech worker of all the blame in their being out of work, but to point out that there are not a lot of options out there for people who are out of work for the first time in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years.

          In fact the latest count is 15 to 20 million people out of work, or under-employed. Not the measely 5.x% the Govt is reporting.

          Like your wife, I could go into Real Estate, but that market is going to probably tank in the Chicagoland area when interest rates go up. Since housing prices have gone up about 20% in the last 4 years (based on what my house has done.) If interest rates rise 1 or 2 full per centage points, it will lock a lot of people out of the market and that will start to force property values down as sellers become more desperate. I saw that in CA where my parents house went from being worth $600,000 to $250,000.

          In fact, if you want an example of the effect that a downward swing in the job market, including outsourcing, has on an economy. Check out the Indy real estate market. I have an out of work Tech Friend who lives in a middle class housing tract, that has, on his street alone, 3 houses that have been vacant for 2 years now, lost in bankruptcies when the owners lost their jobs and could not find a new career fast enough.

          Plus home values have gone through the basement. Homes in downtown Indy are selling for as little as $10,000.00 in the lower middle class and border line poverty areas, and from what I can tell real estate value is down at least 25% or more on most properties.

          Also, as another side-bar. I hired over 100 techs to work on a deployment project. Out of the 100 techs I hired, over 50% of them had not seen a paycheck in over 1 year, and in some cases in two years. And these techs were by-in-large well educated, certified up the wazoo and with good, solid experience. In fact most of them were better educated than I, and had more certs than I can ever hope to have. And all their college and certs and $3.00 will buy them a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but won’t land them a $12/hour Level 1 Help Desk job. Because a lot of thoes jobs have gone to $3/hour workers.

          And once the project was over, all 100 of them and myself were back on the street again wondering where our next paycheck was coming from.

          Not too many of the people who are currently out on the street are so stupid that they do not know they probably will have to get out of IT and into another profession.

          And the question still remains…..where do they go? Now there is the food service industry….average wage maybe $10/hour. Banking? Avearge starting salary seems to be about $12/hour. Grocery store clerk. Hum…have you seen the self-check out lanes…they can make as much as $15/hour. The trades? Thousands of Electricans are on the bench, along with plumbers and other trades, plus you still need to have someone train you if you can get a job. My son-in-law is an apprentice electrican in CA for $12/hour. Won’t see even $40k a year for maybe 4 more years. But he is young and part of GenX who does not expect much in life.

          Check out the ads for lab techs….$10 to $15/hour.

          And it goes on and on and on.

          Anyway….maybe I should go back to Northern California, buy some land like I did in the 60’s and live without computers, electricity and running water, when I was young, nieve and did not worry about the future.

          The new IT Retro Movement…back to the “Little House on the Prarie” and watch the American Economy and your job tank when we all learn to live without, becoming rugged individualist again. Maybe the government will give us 40 acres and a mule. Or at least a chicken in every pot!

          Perhaps one of us will become the new Woody Gutherie or Studs Turkel riding the rails looking for work or a handout…

          Buddy TechCEO can you spare me a dime?

        • #2730377

          You are defeating yourself

          by techceo ·

          In reply to Again you miss the point….

          I read your post, and all I can conclude is that you seem deeply depressed. Life changes beyond one’s control, and you are not the first to be in the position and neither are you unique. There are a million things to get into. It takes some time to establish yourself, but that is unfair? I am in California. I took major hits in real estate. My wife was three years in the business before she made a dime. From your postings, all you have told me is what you cannot do, and you have said nothing about what you can. Your perspective is the problem. I hope you gain a handle on it. It is not as bad as it seems. I’ve been there and done that too.

        • #2730249


          by ahickman ·

          In reply to You are defeating yourself

          Hi TechCEO,

          You have a great mind. And I am not being sarcastic.

          Your right to an extent. I think I have been trying to lay out some of the issues that face a lot of my out-of-work friends.

          Having lived to 54 and gone through a number of recessions, I know that eventually I will land on my feet and move on. It is inevitable. Publish or Perish.

          Have a good one!

      • #2728053

        The most intelligent posting on this board today

        by rfdemond ·

        In reply to Americans Must Adapt to Change

        Wow, I am impressed, finally someone on this board today that actually knows what they are talking about and can say it from a position of knowledge rather than emotion. Your post is right on the money!!!

      • #2728018

        Hit the nail on the head

        by yelt62 ·

        In reply to Americans Must Adapt to Change

        I agree with most of what you said. It appears this thread has smatterings of Pat Robertson and most recently Lou Dobbs regarding protectionism. I am from Canada and we like the States have outsourced a number of IT jobs over the recent years. Most of them for my company are to larger urban centers where the wages and living expenses are more economical. Fundamentally there is an evolution of the IT industry that has shifted from the techie to the enabler. Regardless of where the work is performed, IT folks in North America need to focus in on the business need not the bits and bytes required to deliver the end product. That is our strength, business intelligence not coding or turning a screw driver.

        • #2730552

          The world needs ditch diggers too…

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Hit the nail on the head

          So instead of being high tech programers and network engineers we all should be MBAs? I would rather be turning a screwdriver so I do not deserve to work? I do see what you are saying, the US needs to be a leader in the biz world, but only so many people can stomach that kind of job. I guess I should be happy flipping burgers at Macs. Don’t come crying to me when the infrastructure falls out from under you. Maybe I can get you a job making fries.

      • #2730660

        Then Why is it called….

        by sql_joe ·

        In reply to Americans Must Adapt to Change

        Okay TechCEO, then explain why many of the companies outsourcing to other countries, or even worse, bringing IN H1B’s to replace Citizens are saying it’s because there is a SHORTAGE of American Tech workers?

        Also, while we’re on the discussion of Protectionism and Free Trade: Since when is it Free Trade when only one of the countries participates? Most countries protect their workforce, yet cry foul when the United States makes a move to protect theirs. Life is good when you’re on the receiving end of the one-way street.

        It is the responsability of a government, any government, to protect its citizens PERIOD, and I mean ALL OF THEM, not just lawyers and business executives.

      • #2727865

        Mr CEO has got a point, but………

        by orpheum ·

        In reply to Americans Must Adapt to Change

        I think what you just wrote has much truth and optimism to it. I agree that we’re all crying because we were hit hard. However, I failed to stress in my opening post that the bigger problem is the lax immigration policy our great country (and the Neil Diamond song) was founded on.
        In truth, and I hope you can agree, this is such a painful blow because it is coming from within our borders moreso than from overseas-based operations. I will interupt myself now to point out that I am not racist nor a member of any cult or nationalistic extremist organization. I am just a dude.
        This dude, however, believes that this issue will not become any smaller anytime soon. It will also not cause our unemployment, homeless or suicide rates to climb to shocking record levels anytime soon. But, it is, and will continue to cause many Americans unnecessary anguish and hardship for a while.
        Had our country been any more or any less socialist. autonomist, capitalist or communalist we would never be here to begin with.
        I’ll get to my point now – we were not unskilled or incapable of handling our I/T, we have just been outnumbered and outbid on wage!!
        Your opinion counts MrCEO, what do you feel about these thoughts?

        • #2727770

          I Agree With You

          by techceo ·

          In reply to Mr CEO has got a point, but………

          Orpheum, I agree with you. Our industry and nation have taken some hard shots. (In many ways and even some you omitted.)It breaks my heart to see the anguish that is going on.

          As for the offshore guys, I am often pleasantly surprised AND frustrated. Dealing with them is like dancing with a woman that has learned to dance only from footprints on the floor; she knows the steps, but not how to “dance.” But they are quick and are learning to Cha-Cha fast though.

          I think many companies will develop a “hybrid” approach like we have. I am optimistic because the rest of the world is playing “catch-up” to us. If we work it wisely, they never will.

          Competition and cost is based on many aspects and not just hourly rates. I have never been the “low price leader” anywhere I’ve been, but we were always fierce and capable competitors. The wage/cost differences will level-out in time. Wages here will likely go down some and offshore will go up a lot. A workable balance will be reached.

          My firm currently has some products in feasibility study that will loot foreign IP and permanently transplant it here. (The door swings both ways.) Americans have many advantages now, but the key is our leadership. We need hard-liners in govt who will kick-down the door to foreign mkts and effectively deal with issues. (Regardless of political affiliation.) There is some shoving that is needed, and wimps or fools can’t get it done.

          In closing, I can only say “Take Heart.” We have already lost, and shall lose, some painful battles. But these battles are not the war, and I believe with all my heart, that we shall emerge victorious and better as a nation. There is no alternative.

    • #2728125

      I agree

      by smcgirk ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I think that sending ANY job overseas is counter productive to the nations economy. Companies that outsource overseas should be heavily penalized for doing so. BTW: When will information be publish on how to send technical magazine / web site editors and columnists jobs overseas?

      • #2728103

        Send them Now

        by ahickman ·

        In reply to I agree

        Send the over now. Starting with TechCEO. Once the big boys starting losing their jobs, things will change. At heart the big boys are all NIMBY’s.

    • #2728120

      you’re right on

      by rla8998 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I totally agree- right on, problem is, it’s all about the money- ‘show me the money’ and as long as companies can cut labor costs, they will, where ever people will work cheaper, companies will go there to get the work done- and the only thing that will stop them are MASSIVE BOYCOTT’s of their products and services-

      • #2728095


        by ahickman ·

        In reply to you’re right on

        Again, I hear a lot of people stating we need to do something, but no one seems to want to really pursue a real boycott. A real boycott this summer would throw the White House for a loop and gain a lot of national attention due to this being an election year.

        We could not only pick a target company to boycott but a few politicians, including the Honorable President of the United States, and if we tossed in a boycott of Hannity and Limbaugh that would make everyone set up and take notice.

        And is some respects the boycott does not have to drive a company out of business, or a politician out of office, just flex the consumers/voters muscles and put this issue on the front burner.

        BTW – I am a conservative, but like everyone knows there are no atheist in a fox hole.

      • #2728085


        by ahickman ·

        In reply to you’re right on

        Again, I hear a lot of people stating we need to do something, but no one seems to want to really pursue a real boycott. A real boycott this summer would throw the White House for a loop and gain a lot of national attention due to this being an election year.

        We could not only pick a target company to boycott but a few politicians, including the Honorable President of the United States, and if we tossed in a boycott of Hannity and Limbaugh that would make everyone set up and take notice.

        And is some respects the boycott does not have to drive a company out of business, or a politician out of office, just flex the consumers/voters muscles and put this issue on the front burner.

        BTW – I am a conservative, but like everyone knows there are no atheist in a fox hole.

      • #2728081

        My idea has better chance of success.

        by huh?what? ·

        In reply to you’re right on

        Massive boycotts? Don’t count on it friend, Walmart’s success shows the US consumer is as greedy, or is it price conscious, as those in the boardroom. Whether blue-collar or white-collar people don’t realize offshoring’s cost (or illegal immigration’s cost for that matter) until it hits them personally right between the eyes.

    • #2728084

      Well said and thanks, Orpheum

      by eugeney ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      When I heard Greenspan suggesting more education as the key to solve the outsourcing problem. I just laughed. How much more advanced education do we want our PHD’s, MS’s and BS’s to get ? He and the Republican government just chose to totally ignore the outsourcing problems to India. In fact, I don’t remember he even mentioned the name of India once. But I can forgive Greenspan’s ignorance of IT industry. I thought Tech Republic deals with IT stuffs. Don’t worry, Tech Republic’s writers will be outsourced to India soon. Maybe the whole Tech Republic will have to move to India to cut cost. But if they want to sell back to US’s bankrupt IT market, good luck. There will not be an IT market here if we don’t try to protect our IT base here.

    • #2728079

      Outsourcing is BAD

      by rpj101 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      This problem is contributing to the disappearing middle class in America. Just the other day an associate of mine revealed that the CEO of his company aggreed to have an Indian company manage their website for fifty dollars a year — something that was costing a few thousand, in support of a US worker. The reason I believe that outsourcing is bad, is the fact that the rest of the world is NOT playing by the same rules we Americans are forced to comply with.

    • #2728072

      Bulls eye

      by buffalohunter ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I couldn’t agree more. One note, TechRepublic has expressed opinions on both sides of this issue.

    • #2728054

      Outsourced for pension reasons

      by kel_stevens ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      I am currently working for a large IT company. I happen to like my new employer. I was outsourced from a large American Bank. They outsourced desktop and server support to HP, and network services to EDS. Most people think it was done to remove us from the payroll and save money and the spin is that now they can focus on banking.

      One real reason is the pension funds are completely underfunded in most of the private sector companies and public sectors (government) The federal insurance agency for pensions is in debt and the federal government is refusing to fund this agency. Many companies have gone under and the pensions were not properly funded or lost value after the stock market tanked. Now companies are required to provide proper funding for pensions. It is much easier to reduce employees, than put cash in pensions for workers. Outsource the employees and you outsource the pension.

      This handy cycle of outsourcing ensures that the working person will not get a pension, and they will continually start over with 401K vesting. This is alarming, as we know many people in our goverment want to reduce or bankrupt social security for the working class.

      Outsourcing is also a good way to keep those 40 and 50 year old folks salaries down, or move them out of IT, unless they go into management.
      25 year olds are happy to work for far less money.

      After we outsource everyone, who is going to buy the goods from american companies?


    • #2728038

      They can’t read this site in India…

      by tait ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      TechRepublic is the best site for IT pros, but I think they are really shooting themselves in the foot by helping companies outsource. IT guys like me and most of you are what keeps TechRepublic in business and they need to remember that. When we all switch fields because the IT jobs are gone TechRepulic will go down right after us. Not sure about the rest of you guys, but I’ve about had it with TechRepublic supporting the loss of my job. They must be in bed George Dumbass Bush too.

    • #2728029


      by gscutt ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      Many Americans assume that high employment is our birthright. That was true only following WWII, due to the devastation of Europe. Limited natural resources, average intelligence, and indifferent education have led to a lower standard of living. We could (1) upgrade education, (2) increase resources, and/or (3) ruin others’ economies. Or, continue the slide downhill.

    • #2728028

      Out sourcing promotes terrorism

      by anom_amos1 ·

      In reply to Thanx for the tips to promote more Outsourcing

      What happens when all these highly trained Indians,
      Singaporeans and Pakistani?s finally price them selves out of a job as it has happened to us ?
      While the vast majority of these people are just like you and me; trying to support a family and get ahead in this world. Many of them are of a religion or disenfranchised group that would be easy prey for the recruiters of fanatical cults.
      The moment the paychecks stop coming they like the rest of us will be looking for a new sources of income. Who will offer this when the big Multi Nationals pullout ?
      Terrorists and criminals that?s